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Family Forum / Parenting / Adoption / April 2007



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OK so what is the big deal about Origins?

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joymadsen21@yahoo.com - 13 Apr 2007 02:15 GMT
I am not a member, I know some of their members, some of their members
I like a lot and have a ton of respect for.

This ng seems to think they are some kind of virus.

This is a genuine question, Why Come?
Kathy - 13 Apr 2007 03:18 GMT
On Apr 12, 5:15?pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I am not a member, I know some of their members, some of their members
> I like a lot and have a ton of respect for.
>
> This ng seems to think they are some kind of virus.
>
> This is a genuine question, Why Come?

I'll go first.

Well, for one thing, I don't care for anyone trying to tell me what I
should be calling myself in order to be a part of the club.  This goes
for anywhere I happen to post.  I am not a follower, and imo, I can't
stand people who whine. I know I am a mother, and someone calling me a
birth mother will never change my reality.  I think it is petty to
belittle someone over something as insignificant as semantics.

I also don't like the way Dian treats adoptive parents at large.  For
an example, read her comments in the thread, "our happy/sad story"
She got her digs in whenever she could. I see no need to sink to her
level.  And for someone who is representative of a group like Origins,
why do it? Her behavior lowers her credibility.

She also treats adoptees like needy children. She doesn't get it
through her head that not all are interested in finding mommy dearest,
and confuses her needs with their rights. Often, I believe she treats
them as commodities, what they can do for her. If that makes sense.
For an example read her most recent comments about her son.  "He's no
son of mine if  he condones child trafficking.  I also don't care for
the way she treats adoptees who won't tow her party line.  I think it
might behoove Di if she listened more, and barked less, but that is
jmho.

I'm sure she has her good points, and I will give her kudos for being
activist for reform, but because of her extreme views, well, they
outweigh, imo, and good she's done for women's rights.  I am for a
woman's right to choose, even if that choice is relinquishment.  Di
ridicules women who choose for themselves, and I applaud them.  That
is the major difference between us both.

So what do you think about Origins?  And btw, have we met before?

Kathy
joymadsen21@yahoo.com - 13 Apr 2007 03:23 GMT
> On Apr 12, 5:15?pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> Kathy

I have posted on this newsgroup before, but apparently am a more
recent member of the adoption on line community.  I post on the sofa
mostly.

Okay, I get what your are saying about one person, but that is just
one person, not the organization's platform am I correct?
Kathy - 13 Apr 2007 17:22 GMT
On Apr 12, 6:23�pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > On Apr 12, 5:15?pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

There have been a couple of Origins people visit here before.  Lily,
and someone by the name of Mas. Different people, same rhetoric. They
all seem to drink from the same cup of Kool-aid though.

Kathy
BitterHarvest - 14 Apr 2007 06:41 GMT
> On Apr 12, 6:23?pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

And this ng doesn't have its own collective rhetoric?
rkbose@pacific.net.sg - 14 Apr 2007 21:05 GMT
On Apr 13, 10:41 pm, "BitterHarvest" <patrice...@optusnet.com.au>
wrote:

> > On Apr 12, 6:23?pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>
> And this ng doesn't have its own collective rhetoric?

I'm not sure it does. There are long ongoing arguments that repeat
every few years.
I'm not sure there is much agreement on anything except the value of
fuckfests.
kippaherring@hotmail.com - 14 Apr 2007 21:19 GMT
On Apr 14, 4:05 pm, "rkb...@pacific.net.sg" <rkb...@pacific.net.sg>
wrote:
> I'm not sure there is much agreement on anything except the value of
> fuckfests.

You're f.cking right about that, Rupa.
Kathy - 15 Apr 2007 05:29 GMT
On Apr 13, 9:41�pm, "BitterHarvest" <patrice...@optusnet.com.au>
wrote:

> > On Apr 12, 6:23?pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Does it? Have they ever referred to you as a breeder for the fun of
it? Or an abandoner? Has anyone here implied you had sexual relations
with your son, Di?

Do you need a mirror?

Kathy
kippaherring@hotmail.com - 13 Apr 2007 18:21 GMT
> On Apr 12, 5:15?pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Why Come?

I agree with Kathy that nobody has the right to tell me what to call
myself. Any more than it would be right for me to tell others what to
call themselves.
The fact that I *personally* don't care for the term "birthmother" is
really neither here nor there.
All that fuss about B J Lifton really got my goat. It was shitty to
ask someone to present who they knew had always used the term to then
turn round and ask her not to.
Black mark from me for OUSA . Not that I expect them to care, of
course :-)

Re. Di.  Di gets losts of jollies out of castigating a-parents. As you
have seen. And sometimes even recalcitrant adoptees. She is also
sympathetic to a-parent haters of the most egregious sort - like the
infamous 9/11 poster (for whom the only good a-parent was a dead a-
parent) who she excused and even sympathised with, because said poster
was speaking from a place of pain. She has to my knowledge, shown
disregard, and even contempt, for the fight for open records. As well
as calling adoptees whose behaviour she doesn't like names like
"psychopath" and "imbicile".
OTOH, like Lil said, she's been a true crusader for reparations in Oz,
and has a fund of knowledge about adoption history in that country..

When Di says that Origins doesn't support adoption, it's an
understatement. What she really means is that they oppose it utterly.
Because the real McCoy anti-adoptioneers (and Di is very real) believe
all forms of adoption without exception are inherently wrong, and
should be replaced by legal guardianship.
Basically, it's the old "If you're not with us, you're against us"
dogmatism, and that doesn't sit well with me.
joymadsen21@yahoo.com - 13 Apr 2007 19:02 GMT
On Apr 13, 10:21 am, kippaherr...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Apr 12, 5:15?pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Why Come?
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> Basically, it's the old "If you're not with us, you're against us"
> dogmatism, and that doesn't sit well with me.

See the problem with that for me, besides the obvious the 9/11
comment, I mean that is just over the top,

but legal guadianship, I just don't think would work, beccause there
is definetly something in it as adoption is for the adoptive parents,
I don't see what the benefit would be for guardianship, and guess that
it wouldn't be any different than our modern day foster care, which
sucks. So while in the abstract I can appreciate the idea, on the
practical level, I just have a hard time thinking it would work.
BitterHarvest - 14 Apr 2007 06:52 GMT
On Apr 14, 4:02 am, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Apr 13, 10:21 am, kippaherr...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

It's working in Australia and is called Permanent Placement. The main
difference being that, unlike adoption, the child's identity isn't
legally changed to pretend  his adopters gave birth to him.

Adoption didn't work for 'everyone' either, but adptees are locked
into it whether they like it or not.
joymadsen21@yahoo.com - 14 Apr 2007 07:06 GMT
On Apr 13, 10:52 pm, "BitterHarvest" <patrice...@optusnet.com.au>
wrote:
> On Apr 14, 4:02 am, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I am quite aware that adoption doesn't work for everyone.  I have a
bit of experience with it.

I have never heard of Permanent Placement, I would have loved to not
have my identity changed, my main concern is that there would not be
the same level of parental investment.
BitterHarvest - 14 Apr 2007 08:15 GMT
On Apr 14, 4:06 pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Apr 13, 10:52 pm, "BitterHarvest" <patrice...@optusnet.com.au>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

There has never been any guarantee of parental investment in any form
of substitute care. As evidence has shown since open records, even
adoption doesn't come with such guarantees. For that matter, nor does
being reared by one's own family.
joymadsen21@yahoo.com - 14 Apr 2007 08:38 GMT
On Apr 14, 12:15 am, "BitterHarvest" <patrice...@optusnet.com.au>
wrote:
> On Apr 14, 4:06 pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 75 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

No, no guarantee, but certainly probability
rkbose@pacific.net.sg - 14 Apr 2007 21:21 GMT
On Apr 14, 12:38 am, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > On Apr 14, 4:06 pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > > I have never heard of Permanent Placement, I would have loved to not
> > > have my identity changed, my main concern is that there would not be
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> No, no guarantee, but certainly probability-

I think you have a valid point. I was reading an article recently that
indicated that the more people believe something is "theirs" the more
invested they are in it. So the question is, would a kid in Permanent
Placement be perceived by parents as being the same as a kid that was
"theirs" by birth?

If the PP terminates at at majority, does it release the parents and
the PP person from all legal and moral obligations at that time?

Is PP going to be an additional form, or completely substitute
adoption?

Also, I have further issues with Di's proposal.

1. How will the child feel when it's young?

We had someone here years ago who had two kids by birth and one kid
whose mom could not care for it. The third child was initially a ward
(by legal guardianship) but eventually was adopted. I don't recall all
the details, but I think making the child a complete part of the
family was one of the issues.

I've also read of foster kids wanting desperately for their families
to adopt them. In one case, they did not because she was college-
bound, and her fosters could not have afforded college but there were
state programs that would pay for a foster. It broke the placement.

So I guess my question is, how would a kid feel if it was a PP kid?
Would it feel less secure in its family? Would it feel less loved?

2. Will the PP kid remain next of kin to its PP parents when it grows
up?

In India, the only way non-Hindus can adopt (with some few exceptions)
is by becoming legal guardians and taking the child as their ward. At
majority, the ward has no further legal relationship with the
guardians.

If PP works the same way, then at age 18 or 21, that's it.  They are
no longer close relatives. They are the people that raised the kid. If
there's an accident, or if they need a nursing home, the kid doesn't
get to decide.

3. Does it abrogate the inheritance rights of the PP person?

Most adoptees legitimately expect to inherit from their parents, and
if the parents die intestate, then the state will usually recognize
the claim. would that be true for a PP person?
joymadsen21@yahoo.com - 14 Apr 2007 22:02 GMT
On Apr 14, 1:21 pm, "rkb...@pacific.net.sg" <rkb...@pacific.net.sg>
wrote:
> On Apr 14, 12:38 am, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes, see all of these are concerns I have about PP.

I mean the unspoken agreement is that I will in turn be their for my
adoptive parents when they need me.

Which I am, and willing to be and plan on being, how does this very
real aspect of being a part of a family play into the whole PP thing?
Julia - 15 Apr 2007 05:35 GMT
>On Apr 14, 12:38 am, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>If the PP terminates at at majority, does it release the parents and
>the PP person from all legal and moral obligations at that time?

There is some information on Permanent Care as it works in Victoria,
Oz available at
http://www.office-for-children.vic.gov.au/apc/permanent_care/what

It does expire at 18 but has the advantage of awarding guardianship to
a specific family.  They do not become the child's legal parents.  I
think it would work well for some children, particularly those who may
have some ongoing relationship with their original family, or would
prefer permanent care over adoption.  For others I believe adoption
would be more appropriate.  Children are best cared for with a number
of options, so the one most appropriate to their circumstances can be
chosen.

Julia

>Is PP going to be an additional form, or completely substitute
>adoption?
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>if the parents die intestate, then the state will usually recognize
>the claim. would that be true for a PP person?
rkbose@pacific.net.sg - 15 Apr 2007 06:43 GMT
> On 14 Apr 2007 13:21:44 -0700, "rkb...@pacific.net.sg"
>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> Julia

Thanks.

It does look very like Legal Guardianship in India (except that I
believe legal guardians may actually be able to change the child's
name so that the children have the family name).

Of course, in India it is not used  so much for children in contact
with their families, it is used as an adoption-substitute for children
who are not Hindus, parents who are not Hindus, and when a family
wants to have a child of the same gender as one they already have.
Jackie - 14 Apr 2007 14:08 GMT
>I am quite aware that adoption doesn't work for everyone.  I have a
>bit of experience with it.
>
>I have never heard of Permanent Placement, I would have loved to not
>have my identity changed, my main concern is that there would not be
>the same level of parental investment.

How would you live in SanFrancisco as an artist printmaker or was it
author.. if your adoptive parents did not support you Joy?

Jackie
Lilmtncbn - 14 Apr 2007 14:45 GMT
> How would you live in SanFrancisco as an artist printmaker or was it
> author.. if your adoptive parents did not support you Joy?
>
> Jackie

Maybe she gives great head.

That's an awfully silly question, Jackie.
kippaherring@hotmail.com - 14 Apr 2007 15:03 GMT
> > How would you live in SanFrancisco as an artist printmaker or was it
> > author.. if your adoptive parents did not support you Joy?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> That's an awfully silly question, Jackie.
kippaherring@hotmail.com - 14 Apr 2007 15:09 GMT
> > How would you live in SanFrancisco as an artist printmaker or was it
> > author.. if your adoptive parents did not support you Joy?
>
> > Jackie
>
> Maybe she gives great head.

Ooops. That was a strange error. I meant to say HAHAHA

> That's an awfully silly question, Jackie.

And yes, it is a silly question. Very.
Especially as everyone knows (or should), many artists need to work at
more than one job to support themselves and their family.
Not everyone has a spouse to do it for them :-)
Kat - 15 Apr 2007 13:58 GMT
> > > How would you live in SanFrancisco as an artist printmaker or was it
> > > author.. if your adoptive parents did not support you Joy?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> more than one job to support themselves and their family.
> Not everyone has a spouse to do it for them :-)

LOL!

Kathy 1
Marley Greiner - 14 Apr 2007 16:02 GMT
>> How would you live in SanFrancisco as an artist printmaker or was it
>> author.. if your adoptive parents did not support you Joy?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> That's an awfully silly question, Jackie.

And of what relevance to the subject at hand?

Marley
Lilmtncbn - 14 Apr 2007 16:13 GMT
On Apr 14, 9:02?am, "Marley Greiner" <maddogmar...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:

> >> How would you live in SanFrancisco as an artist printmaker or was it
> >> author.. if your adoptive parents did not support you Joy?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Marley

That too.
Kathy - 15 Apr 2007 05:33 GMT
> > How would you live in SanFrancisco as an artist printmaker or was it
> > author.. if your adoptive parents did not support you Joy?
>
> > Jackie
>
> Maybe she gives great head.

LOLOL!  You pervert.

> That's an awfully silly question, Jackie.

Good answer though..lol

Kathy
Robibnikoff - 16 Apr 2007 14:56 GMT
>> How would you live in SanFrancisco as an artist printmaker or was it
>> author.. if your adoptive parents did not support you Joy?
>>
>> Jackie
>
> Maybe she gives great head.

SNARK!

> That's an awfully silly question, Jackie.

LOL :)
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BAAWA Knight!
#1557

joymadsen21@yahoo.com - 14 Apr 2007 17:15 GMT
> >I am quite aware that adoption doesn't work for everyone.  I have a
> >bit of experience with it.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Jackie

Again with this stupid question.  No my parents do not support me, for
chrissakes I have a nearly grown child, I do not need to submit my
financial statements to you Jack.

What business is it of yours about my financial well-being?  Who
supports your worthless a.s?  Certainly not you.

Jesus H. Christ my adoptive parents haven't supported me financially
since I was 15. I also paid my own university fees, but of course I
did receive some scholarship.

And it is all true Jack, did I tell you about learning to play squash
at the University Club?  , it was fab even if I am not a good sqaush
player

But the relevancy of your jealousy is what?
Kathy - 15 Apr 2007 05:32 GMT
> >I am quite aware that adoption doesn't work for everyone. I have a
> >bit of experience with it.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Jackie

Jeebus, talk about pigeon holing someone.  Maybe she lives on a trust
fund, or won the lottery, or a myriad of other good fortunes.

Kathy
Robibnikoff - 16 Apr 2007 14:56 GMT
>>I am quite aware that adoption doesn't work for everyone.  I have a
>>bit of experience with it.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> How would you live in SanFrancisco as an artist printmaker or was it
> author.. if your adoptive parents did not support you Joy?

WTF? What business of this is yours?
Signature

Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557

rkbose@pacific.net.sg - 15 Apr 2007 00:29 GMT
On Apr 13, 11:06 pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:

> I would have loved to not have my identity changed,

What did you mean here? Keeping your original name? Or remaining in
the culture of your original parents, if it was different from the one
you grew up with? Or having an open situation where you met your
original parents and knew them?

I've always wondered about "identity" - what is it? Is it who you were
born as, who your parents and childhood made you, who you make
yourself as an adult? Or what proportion of each?

Immigrants face some of these same issues. Particularly in the second
generation.
joymadsen21@yahoo.com - 15 Apr 2007 06:40 GMT
On Apr 14, 4:29 pm, "rkb...@pacific.net.sg" <rkb...@pacific.net.sg>
wrote:
> On Apr 13, 11:06 pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Immigrants face some of these same issues. Particularly in the second
> generation.

No my name, I don't know why it means so much to me, I don't even
understand it, but it really bothers me, I didn't cross racial,
cultural or class lines when I was adopted.
Robibnikoff - 16 Apr 2007 15:33 GMT
> On Apr 14, 4:29 pm, "rkb...@pacific.net.sg" <rkb...@pacific.net.sg>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> understand it, but it really bothers me, I didn't cross racial,
> cultural or class lines when I was adopted.

I understand what you mean. When I first found out what my original
birthname was, I was thrilled to finally know it, but incredibly angry that
it had been taken from me.

I thought about changing my middle name to my original birthname, but it's
really not worth all the hassle.
Signature

Robyn
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#1557

Michael Fierro - 16 Apr 2007 17:56 GMT
>> No my name, I don't know why it means so much to me, I don't even
>> understand it, but it really bothers me, I didn't cross racial,
>> cultural or class lines when I was adopted.

> I understand what you mean. When I first found out what my original
> birthname was, I was thrilled to finally know it, but incredibly angry that
> it had been taken from me.

> I thought about changing my middle name to my original birthname, but it's
> really not worth all the hassle.

Are y'all talking about your original first/middle name or last name? I am
wondering because my wife and I are working towards adopting our foster
daughter. We will be changing her middle and last name, but we've gotten so
attached to her first name that we are keeping it. It's unique and kind of
exotic to hear, totally unlike the names in either of our families, but
also very wonderful, and very her.

Signature

Michael Fierro (aka Biffster)            biffster@NOSPAM-REALLYgmail.com
http://apt-get.biffster.org     Y!: miguelito_fierro       AIM: mfierro1
--
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- Inigo Montoya, "The Princess Bride"

Lilmtncbn - 16 Apr 2007 18:04 GMT
>We will be changing her middle and last name, but we've gotten so
> attached to her first name that we are keeping it. It's unique and kind of
> exotic to hear, totally unlike the names in either of our families, but
> also very wonderful, and very her.

Not to mention it's already "her" name.  Although obviously ownership
has its privilege's.

Sheesh.
rkbose@pacific.net.sg - 16 Apr 2007 20:15 GMT
> >We will be changing her middle and last name, but we've gotten so
> > attached to her first name that we are keeping it. It's unique and kind of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Not to mention it's already "her" name.  Although obviously ownership
> has its privilege's.

Don't knock "ownership" too hard!

It's what makes my kid's crying a call for help, while the kid on the
plane is just annoying.
It's what makes me jump when I hear "Mom!"
Before I did the Mom thing, that was just irritating too.

It's the difference between my kid and all the other kids out there.

It's something I have to grow out of, but it takes about 25 years. Or
thereabouts. And it never goes away for good.
Michael Fierro - 16 Apr 2007 20:24 GMT
>> We will be changing her middle and last name, but we've gotten so
>> attached to her first name that we are keeping it. It's unique and kind of
>> exotic to hear, totally unlike the names in either of our families, but
>> also very wonderful, and very her.

> Not to mention it's already "her" name.  Although obviously ownership
> has its privilege's.

Well, she has only had it for 12 months. And it's not like she chose her
name; it was given to her. For all we know right now, she really wanted to
be named Chantelle or Barbara or Artemis. She wasn't consulted as to what
her name should be when she was born. Or at least I assume so, working off the
assumption that nothing has changed since our son was born a couple of
years ago.

Now mind you, I actually understand your point. And I am not big on
changing a child's name. The older the child, the less in favor I am. But I
also think that you are failing to see that names are forced on every child
that has ever been born. A child forces their identity to match the name
given to them; they don't choose the name they are given.

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http://apt-get.biffster.org     Y!: miguelito_fierro       AIM: mfierro1
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Lilmtncbn - 16 Apr 2007 23:21 GMT
> >> We will be changing her middle and last name, but we've gotten so
> >> attached to her first name that we are keeping it. It's unique and kind of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> assumption that nothing has changed since our son was born a couple of
> years ago.

That's new information.  LOL  I was imagining a 6-year old or
something.

> Now mind you, I actually understand your point. And I am not big on
> changing a child's name. The older the child, the less in favor I am. But I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> --
> Michael Fierro (aka Biffster)      

Yes, at some point, for good or for bad, it becomes part of your
identity.  How do you explain to a 6 (or 8 or 10) year old that they
may respond to the name Martha, identify with the name Martha and
think of themselves as Martha, but from today on, they'll have to be
Hildegard?  I've got the sarcasm (I'm not directing it personally at
you) turned up, obviously.  But as an adoptee, to me that smacks of
"ownership" issues.
Robibnikoff - 16 Apr 2007 19:20 GMT
>>> No my name, I don't know why it means so much to me, I don't even
>>> understand it, but it really bothers me, I didn't cross racial,
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> exotic to hear, totally unlike the names in either of our families, but
> also very wonderful, and very her.

I was talking about changing my middle name (Ruth) given to me by my
adoptive parents to my original first name (Katherine) given to me by my bio
mom.
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#1557

Michael Fierro - 16 Apr 2007 20:28 GMT
>> attached to her first name that we are keeping it. It's unique and kind of
>> exotic to hear, totally unlike the names in either of our families, but
>> also very wonderful, and very her.

> I was talking about changing my middle name (Ruth) given to me by my
> adoptive parents to my original first name (Katherine) given to me by my bio
> mom.

Gotcha. Was your middle name changed, too? If so, did you feel the same way
about your middle name?

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    - Doctor Who

Robibnikoff - 16 Apr 2007 20:55 GMT
>>> attached to her first name that we are keeping it. It's unique and kind
>>> of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> way
> about your middle name?

My bmom didn't give me a middle name.  Just a first name and my surname was
the same as hers.  I've always hated my middle name anyway.
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#1557

Victoria Sunsshhine - 16 Apr 2007 22:08 GMT
hi

this  is th e greatest support group i have ever met,

pass out the milk and cookies

the witches, brob   (bring your own brew)
Lilmtncbn - 16 Apr 2007 23:22 GMT
> hi
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> the witches, brob  (bring your own brew)

If you thought this was a support group, then you're in the wrong damn
place.
Robibnikoff - 17 Apr 2007 01:21 GMT
> hi
>
> this  is th e greatest support group i have ever met,

LOL - Now, THAT'S funny.

> pass out the milk and cookies
>
> the witches, brob   (bring your own brew)

Sorry, I've taken the pledge ;)
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rkbose@pacific.net.sg - 17 Apr 2007 01:30 GMT
> hi
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> the witches, brob   (bring your own brew)

You really don't want to eat anything here.

Specially if the a-pars are catering.
Robibnikoff - 17 Apr 2007 13:41 GMT
>> hi
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Specially if the a-pars are catering.

Oh c'mon!  I made my amom's favorite! Boiled cow's tongue, anyone? :)
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KL - 17 Apr 2007 16:26 GMT
>>> hi
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Oh c'mon!  I made my amom's favorite! Boiled cow's tongue, anyone? :)

Well there came breakfast back up!

WHEN WHEN WHEN will I learn to not read here while eating????

--

KL
Robibnikoff - 17 Apr 2007 16:46 GMT
>>>> hi
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Well there came breakfast back up!

Success!!

> WHEN WHEN WHEN will I learn to not read here while eating????

What?  You don't like mopping up your keyboard? :)
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KL - 17 Apr 2007 17:34 GMT
>>>>> hi
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> What?  You don't like mopping up your keyboard? :)

HELL NO....do you wanna come clean it for me??

--

KL
Robibnikoff - 17 Apr 2007 19:53 GMT
>>>>>> hi
>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> HELL NO....do you wanna come clean it for me??

HELL NO right back atcha ;)
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KL - 17 Apr 2007 23:12 GMT
>>>>>>> hi
>>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> HELL NO right back atcha ;)

What, you ain't got no mopping wand you can use???

--

KL
Robibnikoff - 18 Apr 2007 13:49 GMT
>>>>>>>> hi
>>>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> What, you ain't got no mopping wand you can use???

No, I've been taking a hands-on approach lately.  <hands over Bounty paper
towels>  Here ya go! ;)
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KL - 18 Apr 2007 19:33 GMT
>>>>>>>>> hi
>>>>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> No, I've been taking a hands-on approach lately.  <hands over Bounty paper
> towels>  Here ya go! ;)

What do I do with them???

--

KL
Robibnikoff - 18 Apr 2007 19:38 GMT
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2:08 pm, Epean...@webtv.net (Victoria Sunsshhine)
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> What do I do with them???

Wait until you vomit on your keyboard, I guess ;)
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KL - 18 Apr 2007 22:39 GMT
>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2:08 pm, Epean...@webtv.net (Victoria Sunsshhine)
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Wait until you vomit on your keyboard, I guess ;)

But then what?? Use them to wrap it up before I throw it away??

--

KL
Robibnikoff - 19 Apr 2007 13:36 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2:08 pm, Epean...@webtv.net (Victoria Sunsshhine)
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> But then what?? Use them to wrap it up before I throw it away??

You don't believe in recycling? For shame! :)
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KL - 19 Apr 2007 20:28 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2:08 pm, Epean...@webtv.net (Victoria Sunsshhine)
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> You don't believe in recycling? For shame! :)

As an adoptee I recycle by burning what trash I can....does that count??

--

KL
Robibnikoff - 19 Apr 2007 20:45 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2:08 pm, Epean...@webtv.net (Victoria Sunsshhine)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> As an adoptee I recycle by burning what trash I can....does that count??

Oh yes, absolutely! :)
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Marley Greiner - 19 Apr 2007 21:48 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2:08 pm, Epean...@webtv.net (Victoria Sunsshhine)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> KL

As an adoptee, you ARE recycled, KL!

Marley
KL - 20 Apr 2007 02:34 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2:08 pm, Epean...@webtv.net (Victoria Sunsshhine)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Marley

KEWL BEANS!!!  So I have a lifetime pass, right?

I don't have to worry about separating my trash?

I can now spend my time on burning more important things, and drinking
more fluids to put out my increased fires.

--

KL
Marley Greiner - 20 Apr 2007 03:10 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2:08 pm, Epean...@webtv.net (Victoria Sunsshhine)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> KL

Tha's right.  I remember what you did to your hometown 18 months ago.
Pretty good work, there!  It wasn't GWB's fault afterall.  KL is t blame!

Marley
KL - 20 Apr 2007 05:09 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2:08 pm, Epean...@webtv.net (Victoria Sunsshhine)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> Marley

ummmm what happened in my hometown 18 months ago??

Just where do you think I am from??

--

KL
Marley Greiner - 20 Apr 2007 11:40 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2:08 pm, Epean...@webtv.net (Victoria
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sunsshhine) wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>
> --

Weren't you hit by Katrina.?  I'm thinking that as an adoptee it was all
your fault. Just as Iraq and GWB are our collective faults.

Marley
> KL
J. - 20 Apr 2007 14:06 GMT
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rkb...@pacific.net.sg> wrote in message
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>news:1176769819.007556.132360@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>
> Marley

I'll take my share of the blame for Iraq, but you can't lay GWB at my
doorstep.   You'd get arrested and he'd deny having participated.

J.

> > KL- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Marley Greiner - 20 Apr 2007 14:12 GMT
On Apr 20, 5:40?am, "Marley Greiner" <maddogmar...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
> "KL" <klbjor...@aohell.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 72 lines]
>
> Marley

I'll take my share of the blame for Iraq, but you can't lay GWB at my
doorstep.   You'd get arrested and he'd deny having participated.

J.

Actually the 2004 election is my fault.  I live in Ohio.

Marley

> > KL- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
KL - 20 Apr 2007 17:08 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2:08 pm, Epean...@webtv.net (Victoria
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sunsshhine) wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> Marley
>> KL

OHHHH yeah...we did feel some effect of Katrina...not as bad as other
parts...but there was some structural damage around here to be sure.

It is not my fault, according to a weatherman in Idaho.

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/climate/2005-09-20-wacky-weatherman_x.htm

--

KL
Marley Greiner - 20 Apr 2007 17:58 GMT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 16, 2:08 pm, Epean...@webtv.net (Victoria
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sunsshhine) wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
>
> http://www.usatoday.com/weather/climate/2005-09-20-wacky-weatherman_x.htm

Well, that's a relief!  The Yakuza.  Why didn't I recognize their handwork?
I apologize for blaming you.  But I'm sure something is your fault.  And
Lil's and Windforests, and Kim's and other members of our little
dysfunctional family.

Marley

> --
>
> KL
Julia - 18 Apr 2007 06:08 GMT
>>> hi
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Oh c'mon!  I made my amom's favorite! Boiled cow's tongue, anyone? :)

Hey, I used to get that too and I'm not adopted.  Maybe my mum was
just preparing me for my life as an adoptive mother.   It was so
exciting to come into the kitchen and lift the lid to see this massive
grey tongue sitting there.  Yummmmmy!

Julia
Robibnikoff - 18 Apr 2007 13:52 GMT
>>>> hi
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> exciting to come into the kitchen and lift the lid to see this massive
> grey tongue sitting there.  Yummmmmy!

Well, I do agree that it looked flat nasty if you saw it all in one piece,
but it was still one of my favorite dishes when I was a kid.  Have it on
some rye bread with hot mustard, nice German potato salad on the side.
Aaaaaah, delicious! :)
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Lilmtncbn - 21 Apr 2007 13:30 GMT
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 08:41:56 -0400, "Robibnikoff"

> Hey, I used to get that too and I'm not adopted. Maybe my mum was
> just preparing me for my life as an adoptive mother.  It was so
> exciting to come into the kitchen and lift the lid to see this massive
> grey tongue sitting there. Yummmmmy!
>
> Julia-

There has got to be a Gene Simmons joke in here somewhere.
Dad - 16 Apr 2007 19:33 GMT
< snip >

> Are y'all talking about your original first/middle name or last name? I am
> wondering because my wife and I are working towards adopting our foster
> daughter. We will be changing her middle and last name, but we've gotten so
> attached to her first name that we are keeping it. It's unique and kind of
> exotic to hear, totally unlike the names in either of our families, but
> also very wonderful, and very her.

It's one thing to change the name of an infant or toddler, and quite
another to change the name of an older child.  I don't know how old
your foster daughter is, nor her individual history.  But it would be
my recommendation to keep her given name (with few exceptions).  Is
your daughter old enough to voice her own opinion on the matter?

Dad
Michael Fierro - 16 Apr 2007 20:17 GMT
> It's one thing to change the name of an infant or toddler, and quite
> another to change the name of an older child.  I don't know how old
> your foster daughter is, nor her individual history.  But it would be
> my recommendation to keep her given name (with few exceptions).  Is
> your daughter old enough to voice her own opinion on the matter?

She just turned one. She can voice "dada," "mama," "bahbah" and that's
about it. So I am pretty sure she wouldn't mind if we changed her name. :)

But like I said, we already decided we'll keep her first name. It's the
middle one that I'm questioning. I'm mostly in favor of changing it, I
think.

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Robibnikoff - 16 Apr 2007 20:26 GMT
>> It's one thing to change the name of an infant or toddler, and quite
>> another to change the name of an older child.  I don't know how old
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> middle one that I'm questioning. I'm mostly in favor of changing it, I
> think.

My opinion as an adoptee is to leave it, but that's just me.
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rkbose@pacific.net.sg - 16 Apr 2007 20:49 GMT
> >> It's one thing to change the name of an infant or toddler, and quite
> >> another to change the name of an older child.  I don't know how old
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> My opinion as an adoptee is to leave it, but that's just me.

She can have more than one middle name. Perhaps that's an option?
Robibnikoff - 16 Apr 2007 20:54 GMT
>> >> It's one thing to change the name of an infant or toddler, and quite
>> >> another to change the name of an older child.  I don't know how old
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> She can have more than one middle name. Perhaps that's an option?

Ah, good idea.  I used to work with someone who adopted a little girl from
Russia.  They did change her first name, but made her original Russian first
name her middle name.
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Michael Fierro - 17 Apr 2007 18:53 GMT
> She can have more than one middle name. Perhaps that's an option?

That's a very good idea. Thanks!

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WhansaMi - 17 Apr 2007 13:31 GMT
>>> It's one thing to change the name of an infant or toddler, and quite
>>> another to change the name of an older child.  I don't know how old
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> My opinion as an adoptee is to leave it, but that's just me.

DD was older (3.75 years) when she came to us.  We kept both the first and
middle names.  Now, at her age, she really didn't know/understand her middle
name (which no one ever used), but, it seemed like the thing to do.

Unless there is some compelling reason, I'd suggest keeping the first and
middle names.  From listening to people who have been adopted, this is
something that is obviously pretty important to a lot of them.  Why create
negative feelings, down the road, unnecessarily?

Sheila
joymadsen21@yahoo.com - 17 Apr 2007 19:57 GMT
> >> It's one thing to change the name of an infant or toddler, and quite
> >> another to change the name of an older child.  I don't know how old
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> BAAWA Knight!
> #1557

That is just your opinion and about every other adoptee's opinion who
realizes that they have some value outside of being a human bandaid
rkbose@pacific.net.sg - 17 Apr 2007 20:09 GMT
On Apr 17, 11:57 am, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:

> That is just your opinion and about every other adoptee's opinion who
> realizes that they have some value outside of being a human bandaid-

I don't think that's a fair generalization.

Some kids are very invested in being recognized as part of their
adoptive families. And sometimes, that's what the new name implies.
They want one that "goes" with the rest of the family. They want the
surname the other kids have.

They may feel differently when they're adults, but for a parent,
childhood is the important part. Hurts in childhood are much more
difficult to heal.

That said, I think keeping options open is a good thing; preserve the
birthnames while adding on the other names.
Robibnikoff - 17 Apr 2007 20:24 GMT
>> >> It's one thing to change the name of an infant or toddler, and quite
>> >> another to change the name of an older child.  I don't know how old
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> That is just your opinion and about every other adoptee's opinion who
> realizes that they have some value outside of being a human bandaid

Oooooookay. WTF?
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WhansaMi - 17 Apr 2007 20:30 GMT
>>> >> It's one thing to change the name of an infant or toddler, and quite
>>> >> another to change the name of an older child.  I don't know how old
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Oooooookay. WTF?

I think she means adoptive parents who see an adoptive parent as a salve for
their pain (of not being able to reproduce on their own, perhaps?).

Joy, you seem very angry to me, and maybe you have a right to be, but please
remember that not all adopted kids share your feelings, and not all adoptive
parents are like yours.

Sheila
Robibnikoff - 17 Apr 2007 20:48 GMT
>>>> >> It's one thing to change the name of an infant or toddler, and quite
>>>> >> another to change the name of an older child.  I don't know how old
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> I think she means adoptive parents who see an adoptive parent as a salve
> for their pain (of not being able to reproduce on their own, perhaps?).

Ah, gotcha.  I just never thought of myself as a "human bandaid" before.  My
aparents wanted another child; my bmom wanted to go to college - bada boom,
bada bing  ;)

> Joy, you seem very angry to me, and maybe you have a right to be, but
> please remember that not all adopted kids share your feelings, and not all
> adoptive parents are like yours.

Exactly.  My aparents weren't perfect either, but who is?
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Dad - 17 Apr 2007 21:20 GMT
< snip >

> I think she means adoptive parents who see an adoptive parent as a salve for
> their pain (of not being able to reproduce on their own, perhaps?).
>
> Joy, you seem very angry to me, and maybe you have a right to be, but please
> remember that not all adopted kids share your feelings

99.5% of them do.

> and not all adoptive parents are like yours.

99.5% of them are.

     < 100% Dad
joymadsen21@yahoo.com - 17 Apr 2007 21:53 GMT
> > <joymadse...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:1176836226.160155.255940@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Oh thanks Sheila for your helpful reminder, I had completly forgotten
this

Weird  here I was thinking there was one universal adoptee just split
up in different skins

and yes thank you for insulting for whatever reason you found it
necessary my adoptive parents
joymadsen21@yahoo.com - 17 Apr 2007 22:04 GMT
On Apr 17, 1:53 pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Have I posted anything at all here about my adoptive parents?

How do you know they aren't you?
KL - 17 Apr 2007 23:16 GMT
> On Apr 17, 1:53 pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> How do you know they aren't you?

Can anyone else say, "MELTDOWN!!!!"

--

KL
WhansaMi - 17 Apr 2007 23:49 GMT
> On Apr 17, 1:53 pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>
> How do you know they aren't you?

Joy, I said you *seem* angry to me, and posts like this are the ones that
have made me feel that way.   It is entirely possible that I am wrong, and
if I am, I apologize.  It has just seemed *to me* that you have a lot of
angry feelings about adoption, and, yes, the way you have phrased some
things makes it seem like you have some anger toward your adoptive parents.
Again, it is entirely possible I'm off-base in my assessment.

Sheila
Robibnikoff - 18 Apr 2007 13:48 GMT
> On Apr 17, 1:53 pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>
> How do you know they aren't you?

Um, what?
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Jackie - 23 Apr 2007 00:05 GMT
>Have I posted anything at all here about my adoptive parents?
>
>How do you know they aren't you?

Yes you have Joy..

http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.adoption/msg/b00e928982e11d9b?hl=en&

Newsgroups: alt.adoption
From: joymadse...@yahoo.com
Date: 2 Apr 2007 12:53:47 -0700
Local: Mon, Apr 2 2007 3:53 pm
Subject: Re: In Somewhat Shocking News
Reply | Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show
original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
On Apr 2, 6:03 am, Jackie <jackiejda...@w3connex.ca> wrote:

(snipped some..)

> And speaking of making things up.. Joy you once wrote that you are an
> artist and printmaker.. and you live in San Francisco.. and you are a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> San Francisco is a very expensive place to live.. I kind of think you
> are lying again.. but hey..

> Jackie-

Jackie

Stealing my aparents fortune has really helped support my extravagant
lifestyle, did I mention I am going to Eurpoe AGAIN this year,  or
that hd has his own label?

Yes, I was aware that I live in an expensive neighborhood, thanks,

And that has f.ck all of what to do with who I am a person, or
adoption?

Bon vivant, guilty as charged but so the f.ck what?

.... end of quoting..

So what is it Joy.  Do you live off of your aparents money or not?
Do you hate them even tho they set you up on Sanfrancisco?

Jackie
rkbose@pacific.net.sg - 23 Apr 2007 02:14 GMT
> So what is it Joy.  Do you live off of your aparents money or not?
> Do you hate them even tho they set you up on Sanfrancisco?
>
> Jackie

Not sure where you picked up "hate."

What I heard was that she said she loved her a-parents very much, and
they were important to her.

She said she needed to stop seeing herself and her life through the
lens of being her a-parents' daughter.

I don't think the two things are contradictory. it strikes me as a
specialy case of the process we all go through, initially as we become
adults, but to some extent all our lives: Apart from what my parents
want for me, and the person they think I am - who am I and who do I
want to be?

That doesn't speak to hating your parents - just a matter of defining
yourself in your own terms and forming, as far as you can, your own
destiny.
joymadsen21@yahoo.com - 23 Apr 2007 07:28 GMT
> >Have I posted anything at all here about my adoptive parents?
>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Jackie

My AbFab lifestyle is none of your damn business, Jack.

Although I do find your jealousy entertaining.
Dad - 17 Apr 2007 22:04 GMT
On Apr 17, 4:53 pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> Oh thanks Sheila for your helpful reminder, I had completly forgotten
> this

You're welcome, I'm sure - that's why we're here.  :)

> Weird  here I was thinking there was one universal adoptee just split
> up in different skins
>
> and yes thank you for insulting for whatever reason you found it
> necessary my adoptive parents.

Bad Sheila.  Never assume that an angry adoptee has angry a-parents.
Nature beats nurture, after all.

Dad
Kat - 20 Apr 2007 22:13 GMT
> On Apr 17, 4:53 pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
>
> Bad Sheila.  Never assume that an angry adoptee has angry a-parents.

Why should someone assume that?  Do happy adoptees have happy aparents?  Do
sarcastic adoptees have sarcastic aparents?  This kind of logic reminds me
of those that say adoptees who have a desire to search for their bparents
have aparents who did something wrong when they were raising them.

Kathy 1
Sarcastic adoptee with nonsarcastic aparents ;)
Kat - 20 Apr 2007 22:13 GMT
> > On Apr 17, 4:53 pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 81 lines]
> Kathy 1
> Sarcastic adoptee with nonsarcastic aparents ;)

oh and nonsarcastic bparents too!

Kathy 1
Robibnikoff - 23 Apr 2007 14:20 GMT
> "Kat" <katlat24@hotmail.com> wrote in message

snip

>> Why should someone assume that?  Do happy adoptees have happy aparents?
> Do
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> oh and nonsarcastic bparents too!

Well, I did/do have a sarcastic birthmom, so I guess this little unwanted
apple didn't fall that far from the tree afterall :P
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Robibnikoff - 23 Apr 2007 14:19 GMT
>> On Apr 17, 4:53 pm, joymadse...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 81 lines]
> Do
> sarcastic adoptees have sarcastic aparents?

I can honestly answer this question - NO :)

This kind of logic reminds me
> of those that say adoptees who have a desire to search for their bparents
> have aparents who did something wrong when they were raising them.

Oh, how lovely :P
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kippaherring@hotmail.com - 22 Apr 2007 15:19 GMT
> Nature beats nurture, after all.

Apparently not according to Martin Rowlandson:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2007/04/15/borow14.xml

Victory of nurture over nature.
Ruth Scurr reviews Stuff by Martin Rowson

Two-thirds of the way through this memoir, Martin Rowson states his
position on adoption: "I'm not entirely happy with the idea of being
classified as an 'adoptee' or 'adopted person', not because the
condition itself bothered me, but because I don't like labels." He
does not want readers to think his book is really about his being
adopted, when he meant it to be "about much, much more than that".

Rowson is an acclaimed political cartoonist who attributes his gift
for drawing to genetic inheritance, yet is more interested in the
other side of the nature v nurture debate. He was born in Hammersmith
in 1959, but it was not until the late 1990s that he started searching
for his natural parents. Stuff is a skilful corrective to what he
scathingly calls "the literature of adoption stories".

Aside from labels and the glib judgements they imply, it is the
tendency to "talk up adoption" as a variety of victimhood that Rowson
berates. He does not deny that some people's experiences of adoption
have been truly terrible, but resists the view that the practice is
inherently traumatic for babies and their parents. Further, he
suggests that "the adoption experience is just a formalised version of
most people's family lives, where you can hardly hear yourself think
for the noise of skeletons rattling in cupboards all around you".

Rowson assembles his memories in a series of eccentrically themed
chapters that cleverly illustrate his argument: Dream, Bones,
Formaldehyde, Distance, Colours, and so on. Four central characters -
Rowson's adoptive mother, father, stepmother, and the Stanmore house
they all lived in - are first introduced in his dreams. Next come the
bones: a box of them in the loft, left over from Rowson's father's
medical student days; his father's own hip, replaced as a consequence
of Perthes' disease; and the ashes of the tiny bones of baby
Christopher, whose death led to Rowson's parents' decision to adopt a
little girl, and afterwards him.

As a child, Rowson found a wad of roubles stashed away in a wardrobe
in his parents' bedroom. Afterwards, he pretended that his father was
a Russian spy, and admits to being almost disappointed that there
"wasn't a thickset stranger standing at the back of the crematorium at
my father's funeral, who'd leave without saying a word after dropping
a small floral tribute, with no message, on the steps outside".

Rowson's father visited Russia in the course of his career as a
medical scientist. The postcards he sent home to Stanmore carried
remarkably banal messages ("this evening it is raining and I have had
dinner at the hotel") but they still inspired Rowson to read Soviet
Weekly on the bus back from school.

Rowson's mother was a midwife who not only lost her own baby, but
believed she was responsible for another baby dying during her routine
work. After adopting two children, she began fostering a succession of
babies awaiting new homes. When Rowson was clearing the family home,
he came across an album of photos of all the fostered babies, with
notes as to whether or not they had been successfully placed after
leaving his mother's care. "A depressingly large number hadn't been,
and I can only begin to guess at whatever might have happened to them
subsequently."

His mother died suddenly of a brain haemorrhage when he was 10. He did
not go to the funeral and regretted it, because afterwards he had
dreams in which his mother reappeared and claimed to have just been
hiding. This is why, in recounting the process of tracing his natural
parents, Rowson writes: "If ever I was haunted by the idea of a
missing mother, you already know the source of that."

Another extraordinary fact is that Rowson's father remarried a woman
who turned out to be the midwife in the maternity hospital who had
carried him from his natural mother to his adoptive mother. When he
was growing up, he knew her as his godmother, before she became his
stepmother, even though he had never been baptised, so did not
officially have any godparents.

Many would have approached this astonishing narrative conventionally,
letting the revelations drop one after another in sequence. Rowson is
more creative. He interweaves memories and images, reflecting
carefully, never pretentiously, on their formative power. He thinks of
himself as his parents' "little victory of nurture over nature", and
he insists that, these days, we are too credulous about genetics.
Stuff is a candid, sanguine, often very amusing, illustration of a
serious point of view.
Robin Harritt - 22 Apr 2007 21:01 GMT
>> Nature beats nurture, after all.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 83 lines]
> Stuff is a candid, sanguine, often very amusing, illustration of a
> serious point of view.

I suppose I'd much prefer to be classified as a bastard, and adoption robbed
me of my bastardy. Not that I like labels all that much either.

I do think that what Rowson calls "the literature of adoption stories"
generally does need what Scurr seems think is a 'corrective' or at least I
assume that between them they mean the same thing as I do. Pathologising
adoptees per se is one the things I personally detest, particularly as it is
practised by the radical birthmother faction of the anti-adoption movement,
you know the ones I mean, the ones who worship at the feet of Di Welfare and
her ilk. Well yes the ones mentioned in the title of this thread, the
Origins brigade. I detest that just as much as I detest the the rescue
mentality of some adoptive parents.

I'd have to agree that it isn't "inherently traumatic for babies and their
parents" it is however by dint of circumstance traumatic for most
birthmothers who lose a child to adoption, that surly is undeniable. I'm not
so sure that it's that traumatic for all adoptees, though it undoubtedly is
for many. Why is an adopted male many times more likely to die before their
40th birthday often from self-destructive causes?

Well I don't know as there were that many skeletons in my adoptive family's
cupboard, if there were I never heard  them rattling.

I do think perhaps Rawson's adoptive family were a little out of the
ordinary even for medical folk, but that makes for a good story. I'm not so
sure it makes for an accurate picture of what growing up adopted is like for
the average adopted child. Not that my own adoption came within a million
miles