Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
Parenting
ParentingMothersSingle ParentsStep ParentsAdoptionTwinsSpankingChildren's Health
Pregnancy
PregnancyBreastfeeding
Marriage
MarriageDivorce
FamilyKB.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Family Forum / Parenting / Adoption / February 2008



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Iraqis resort to selling children

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
kippaherring@hotmail.com - 07 Jan 2008 16:09 GMT
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/081021CA-CEE2-4D75-8868-CC4B9E59016D.htm

Iraqis resort to selling children
By    Afif Sarhan in Baghdad

Unicef says an estimated two million children in Iraq continue to face
threats,
including poor nutrition, disease and interrupted education [GALLO/
GETTY]

Abu Muhammad, a Baghdad resident, found it difficult to let go of his
daughter's hand but he had already convinced himself that selling her
to a family outside Iraq would provide her with a better future.

"The war disgraced my family. I lost relatives including my wife among
thousands of victims of sectarian violence and was forced to sell my
daughter to give my other children something to eat," he told Al
Jazeera.

In 2006, Abu Muhammad and his family were forced to leave their home
in Adhamiya, a district of Baghdad, after militia fighting claimed the
streets in his once tranquil neighbourhood.

They began living in a makeshift refugee camp on the outskirts of
Baghdad, but he soon lost his job and the children, unable to make the
daily trek, quit school.

"There wasn't enough money to spend on books, clothes and transport,"
he said. His daughter, Fatima, the youngest of four children, began to
show signs of malnourishment and a local medic said she had become
anaemic.

Desperation

By mid-2007, conditions for his family had become desperate and his
children, once healthy and bubbling with life, had become gaunt and
lethargic.

It was then that a translator and a Swedish couple claiming to be part
of an international NGO arrived in the makeshift refugee camp.

"They heard about my situation and the woman, who said she could not
have babies, offered some money to give her my youngest daughter of
two years old," he said.

"I refused in the beginning but the Iraqi translator was constantly
coming at the camp and insisting with the same question. One day I
found that my children would die without food and a clean environment
and the next time he came to my tent, I told him that I agreed."

He gave the translator all personal documents and after a week the
couple came with new documents for Abu Muhammad to sign, authorising
the adoption and to pick up his daughter.

Abu Muhammad, who received $10,000, believes he is now damned by God,
but he says his inner turmoil is allayed somewhat by his belief that
Fatima will have a better life than many in Iraq.

"I could see her love in the first time she looked at her," he said of
the adoptive mother.

Alarming disappearances

Local officials and aid workers have expressed concern over the
alarming rate at which children are disappearing countrywide in Iraq's
current unstable environment.

Omar Khalif, vice-president of the Iraqi Families Association, (IFA),
a NGO established in 2004 to register cases of those missing and
trafficked, said that at least two children are sold by their parents
every week.

Another four are reported missing every week.

He said: "[The] Numbers are alarming. There is an increase of 20 per
cent in the reported cases of missing children compared to last year."

"In previous years, children were reported missing on their way home
from schools or after playing with friends outside their homes.
However, police investigations, police have revealed that many have
been sold by their parents to foreign couples or specialised gangs."

According to police investigations and an independent IFA study, Iraqi
children are being sold to families in many European countries -
particularly the Netherlands and Sweden - Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.

"Taking advantage of the desperate situation of many families living
under poverty conditions in Iraq, foreigners offer a good amount of
money in exchange of children as young as one month old and up to five
years of age," Khalif said.

He said there are fears children are being trafficked for the sex
trade and the organ transplant black market.

Children drugged

Hassan Alaa, a senior interior ministry official, said that while it
has been difficult to precisely trace where the missing children are
taken, government forces have captured 15 human trafficking gangs
operating in Iraq in the past nine months.

"Many were carrying false documents prepared to take some children out
from the country."

"During their confessions, they said many children are sold for as
little as $3000 and for very young babies, the price could reach
$30,000," Alaa said.

The interior ministry has stepped up its security at checkpoints and
border posts throughout Iraq.

He says that the child traffickers resort to drugging children with
powerful sedatives during the trip out of Iraq. When they drive up to
a checkpoint, the police are told the children are merely sleeping.

"All children leaving Iraq now have to be woken up and interviewed by
the police and border patrols, except those who are infants and unable
to speak," Alaa said.

Extreme poverty

Mahmoud Saeed, a senior official at the Ministry of Labour and Social
Affairs, says extreme poverty and nationwide unemployment have pushed
parents to the edge, forcing them to make decisions once believed
unthinkable.
Roger Wright, Unicef's Special Representative for Iraq recently told
the media that "Iraqi children are paying far too high a price."

"While we have been providing as much assistance as possible, a new
window of opportunity is opening, which should enable us to reach the
most vulnerable with expanded, consistent support. We must act now."

Unicef says:

- An estimated 2 million children in Iraq continue to face threats
including poor nutrition, disease and interrupted education.

- Many of the 220,000 displaced children of primary school age had
their education interrupted.

- An estimated 760,000 children (17 per cent) did not go to primary
schools in 2006.

- An average 25,000 children per month were displaced by violence or
intimidation, with their families seeking shelter in other parts of
Iraq.

- In 2007, approximately 75,000 children had resorted to living in
camps or temporary shelters.

- Hundreds of children lost their lives or were injured by violence
and many more had their main family wage-earner kidnapped or killed.

"Desperate seeing their families without food and hygiene, parents
prefer to give their children for adoption, to save their lives," he
said.

Saeed said the ministry was making employment a national crisis issue
in 2008, hoping to find immediate work for the poor.

He is hoping international aid agencies and NGOs will increase their
participation and investments in projects geared towards helping
children.

But for many parents, help will inevitably come too late.

Anguish

Khalid Jabboury, 38, a father of seven and displaced on the outskirts
of Baghdad, says giving his daughter up for adoption to a Jordanian
family has given him nothing but torment.

He said: "After one year I heard from some relatives that they had
seen my seven-year-old daughter working as a servant for the supposed
new family and she was being beaten as well."

He says he was paid $20,000 for but wants to give the money back if a
local NGO can assist in her repatriation.

The IFA's Khalif says there is nothing the NGOs can do once children
have been taken out of Iraq.

Ruwaida Saleh, 31, a mother of three, is also praying for her eight-
year-old daughter Hala's safety.

Saleh says her daughter disappeared in July 2007 and has not been
heard from since.

"The police told us to give up, but I cannot. I have nightmares she is
being raped," she said.

"I will hold God's hands and beg Him to have Hala in my arms again one
day. It is a pain without explanation that I will carry to my coffin
if I never find her."
J. - 09 Jan 2008 02:00 GMT
On Jan 7, 10:09�am, kippaherr...@hotmail.com wrote:
> http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/081021CA-CEE2-4D75-8868-CC4B9E...
>
[quoted text clipped - 190 lines]
> day. It is a pain without explanation that I will carry to my coffin
> if I never find her."

One more unintended consequence of the "liberation" of Iraq.

I can't help but wonder how many Iraqi deaths would have occurred and
what conditions in Iraq would be today had Saddam remained in power.
Some estimate civilian deaths at 80-87,000 since the invasion. Others
estimate substantially higher numbers.  Still others estimate that the
annual death toll post-invasion is double what it was under Saddam.

Btw, anyone else see "The Kingdom"?  Death begets death, war begets
war, all in a good cause.

J.
Steve  White - 21 Jan 2008 05:18 GMT
In article
<122d3dd3-ea8e-403d-9e8c-a32fb258af8b@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,

> One more unintended consequence of the "liberation" of Iraq.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> estimate substantially higher numbers.  Still others estimate that the
> annual death toll post-invasion is double what it was under Saddam.

Boy howdy, it's just too bad for the Iraqis Saddam killed. And tortured.
Real torture, not just waterboarding, mind you.

And the two pointless wars.

And the gassing of the Kurds.

Saddam killed about 1.5 million people in his 25 years in power. That
includes the pointless wars. Genocidal thugs generally kill more, not
less, as times goes by, so the toll would only have gotten larger.

steve
helicon@eircom.net - 08 Feb 2008 15:08 GMT
> In article
> <122d3dd3-ea8e-403d-9e8c-a32fb258a...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> includes the pointless wars. Genocidal thugs generally kill more, not
> less, as times goes by, so the toll would only have gotten larger.

Still at it Steve? Still justifying the unjustifiable, as always. Do
you not keep up? Do you just swallow the propaganda willy-nilly,
without so much as a grain of salt? I can hardly believe that you are
still so gung-ho in the face of the enormity of the criminal behaviour
sanctioned by Bush's administration, both at home and abroad.

There will probably be more calls for Bush/Cheney to be indicted
(bushindictment@gmail.com - contact Kurt Daims) like the one in
Brattleboro, Vermont. Ordinary Decent Americans - democrats, liberals
and conservatives - will be outraged when they discover the true
extent of the war crimes perpetrated in their name.

Here's part of a Human Rights Watch article which I doubt that you
have read - it is relentless, this endless, pointless killing of
innocent people by Americans, the fracturing of families, and the
making of orphans - for what purpose?

Khalaf recounted the events of that day to a hushed room of lawyers
with laptops. He watched, he said, as the Blackwater convoy made the U-
turn toward the street where he stood directing traffic. As the convoy
stopped, Khalaf watched as a large man with a mustache standing atop
the third car fired several shots in the air. Khalaf turned back
toward the Yarmouk road to see what might have spurred the shooting
and heard a woman yell, "My son! My son!" He ran three cars back to a
white sedan to find a woman holding a young man slumped over and
covered with blood.

The man was Ahmed, a 20-year-old medical student at the top of his
class, and the woman his mother, Mohasin, a successful dermatologist
and mother of three.

"I tried to help the young man, but his mother was holding him so
tight," said Khalaf. "I raised my left arm high in the air to try to
signal to the convoy to stop the shooting," he said, thinking that it
would respond to such a gesture by a police officer. He described how
he crouched by the car, his right arm reaching inside, his head out
and left arm up in the air, signaling to the convoy, his gun secure in
its holster. Then the mother was shot dead before his eyes.

The shooting then turned heavier, Khalaf said, his eyes red-brimmed
and serious. He hid behind the police traffic booth, but shots came
directly at him, hitting the adjacent traffic light and booth's door,
and he fled back across Yarmouk road to safety behind a hill. Along
with a few hundred others, he stayed there as the chaos unfolded,
watching as the helicopters circling above the street started shooting
at those below.

For the complete article:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/12/14/usint17554.htm

Helen

> steve
Steve  White - 12 Feb 2008 04:01 GMT
In article
<2a463e55-7470-490d-bd74-6df5d4ace099@v46g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <122d3dd3-ea8e-403d-9e8c-a32fb258a...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Still at it Steve? Still justifying the unjustifiable, as always. Do
> you not keep up?

Do you?

80% of the Iraqis want the Ba'athists to lay down their guns.

And close to 90% want al-Qaeda out of their country.

It's strange: you socialists bray about us being foreigners in Iraq, yet
you don't seem to mind all the Libyan, Yemeni, Saudi and Egyptian
jihadis who are there murdering the Iraqi people. They aren't fighting
'for' the Iraqis, that much is clear.

> Do you just swallow the propaganda willy-nilly, without so much as a
> grain of salt? I can hardly believe that you are still so gung-ho in
> the face of the enormity of the criminal behaviour sanctioned by
> Bush's administration, both at home and abroad.

That's just socialist pap. For a supposedly intelligent person you sure
do swallow a lot of nonsense.

> There will probably be more calls for Bush/Cheney to be indicted
> (bushindictment@gmail.com - contact Kurt Daims) like the one in
> Brattleboro, Vermont.

Most Americans understand that the folks in Vermont are a little ..
strange. And that the hippy types there are stranger.

> Ordinary Decent Americans - democrats, liberals and conservatives -
> will be outraged when they discover the true extent of the war crimes
> perpetrated in their name.

When will you socialists start to be outraged at what Saddam did to his
people?


> Here's part of a Human Rights Watch article which I doubt that you
> have read -

Remind me when HRW gets outraged at what Saddam did. Their view of human
rights violations is a bit .. selective.

As is their memory.

And yours.

steve
Steve  White - 21 Jan 2008 05:14 GMT
In article
<bbd5d3e7-81aa-43b8-8bd5-773d332e9fd6@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,

> http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/081021CA-CEE2-4D75-8868-CC4B9E59016D.ht
> m
>
> Iraqis resort to selling children
> By    Afif Sarhan in Baghdad

This is from al-Jiz, folks. I'd take this with a LOT of salt.

steve
kippaherring@hotmail.com - 21 Jan 2008 15:02 GMT
> In article
> <bbd5d3e7-81aa-43b8-8bd5-773d332e9...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> This is from al-Jiz, folks. I'd take this with a LOT of salt.

And that's from Steve, folks. He takes salt with anything and
everything that runs counter to his POV.
You really ought to cut back, Steve. It can't be good for your blood
pressure.

http://gvnet.com/humantrafficking/Iraq.htm
"Iraq is a source and destination country for men and women trafficked
for commercial sexual exploitation and involuntary servitude. Children
are trafficked for commercial sexual exploitation; criminal gangs may
have targeted young boys and staff of private orphanages and may have
trafficked young girls for forced prostitution within Iraq and abroad.
Iraqi women are trafficked to Syria, Jordan, Qatar, United Arab
Emirates, Turkey, and Iran for the purpose of commercial sexual
exploitation. Iraq is also a destination country for men and women
trafficked from South and Southeast Asia for involuntary servitude as
construction workers, cleaners, and domestic servants. Some of these
workers are offered fraudulent jobs in safe environments in Kuwait or
Jordan, but are then forced into involuntary servitude in Iraq
instead; others go to Iraq voluntarily, but are subjected to
conditions of involuntary servitude after arrival. Although the
governments of India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Thailand, and the
Philippines have official bans prohibiting their nationals from
working in Iraq, workers from these countries are increasingly coerced
into positions in Iraq with threats of abandonment in Kuwait or
Jordan, starvation, or force. - U.S. State Dept Trafficking in Persons
Report, June, 2007"

Given prostitution's a choice more and more Iraqi women feel obliged
to make for their families to survive
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/15/iraq.prostitution/index.html
the Al-Jaz report is hardly suprising.
Steve  White - 22 Jan 2008 02:27 GMT
In article
<d69f0590-264e-4643-8bf8-ca6c64d442d3@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <bbd5d3e7-81aa-43b8-8bd5-773d332e9...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> And that's from Steve, folks. He takes salt with anything and
> everything that runs counter to his POV.

I look at a lot of things. Al-Jiz is notorious in its anti-American
bias. Of course, if you're anti-American yourself then you won't mind.

Al-Jiz also (like other MSM outlets) likes the sensational. Veracity
comes later if they ever get around to it.

As far as the 'gv.net' report goes, that's from the U.S. State Dept
trafficking report. It notes (you missed this) that human trafficking is
endemic to the region and indeed, from the listed countries, to the
entire continent.

> Given prostitution's a choice more and more Iraqi women feel obliged
> to make for their families to survive
> http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/15/iraq.prostitution/index.html
> the Al-Jaz report is hardly suprising.

Prostitution is a problem in every poor country around the world. And in
some rich ones.

steve
kippaherring@hotmail.com - 22 Jan 2008 05:17 GMT
> In article
> <d69f0590-264e-4643-8bf8-ca6c64d44...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> I look at a lot of things. Al-Jiz is notorious in its anti-American
> bias. Of course, if you're anti-American yourself then you won't mind.

And if you're jingoistic you won't even consider that there might
possibly be a shred of truth to anything that smacks to you of 'anti-
Americanism'.

> Al-Jiz also (like other MSM outlets) likes the sensational. Veracity
> comes later if they ever get around to it.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> endemic to the region and indeed, from the listed countries, to the
> entire continent.

Presumably you don't accept there's any reason to suppose that present
conditions have exacerbated the problem.

> > Given prostitution's a choice more and more Iraqi women feel obliged
> > to make for their families to survive
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Prostitution is a problem in every poor country around the world. And in
> some rich ones.

The forces that drive prostitution in poor countries are different
from those in rich ones.
Poverty limits options.
Steve  White - 26 Jan 2008 05:17 GMT
In article
<50f286d0-b2e6-4b70-beb3-a01847d77113@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <d69f0590-264e-4643-8bf8-ca6c64d44...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> possibly be a shred of truth to anything that smacks to you of 'anti-
> Americanism'.

You'll be amazed but we Americans can be mighty critical of our own
country. But we know the difference between being critical ourselves and
listening to others screeching about how loathsome we are.

> > Al-Jiz also (like other MSM outlets) likes the sensational. Veracity
> > comes later if they ever get around to it.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Presumably you don't accept there's any reason to suppose that present
> conditions have exacerbated the problem.

No doubt. After all al-Qaeda has been murdering the people of Iraq with
car bombs and splodydopes for several years.

That's what you meant, right?

> > > Given prostitution's a choice more and more Iraqi women feel obliged
> > > to make for their families to survive
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> from those in rich ones.
> Poverty limits options.

Spoken like a good Tranzi.

steve
kippaherring@hotmail.com - 27 Jan 2008 21:43 GMT
> In article
> <50f286d0-b2e6-4b70-beb3-a01847d77...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> country. But we know the difference between being critical ourselves and
> listening to others screeching about how loathsome we are.

If you want to think I hate America and Americans, that's not my
problem.
Personally, I don't think Americans are "loathsome" at all.
Some Of My Best Friends Are Americans.

> > > Al-Jiz also (like other MSM outlets) likes the sensational. Veracity
> > > comes later if they ever get around to it.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> No doubt. After all al-Qaeda has been murdering the people of Iraq with
> car bombs and splodydopes for several years.

Though not prior to the invasion (which caused the present
conditions).

> That's what you meant, right?

Wrong.
See above.

> > > > Given prostitution's a choice more and more Iraqi women feel obliged
> > > > to make for their families to survive
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Spoken like a good Tranzi.

Phooey.

Kippa

> steve
Steve  White - 30 Jan 2008 03:28 GMT
In article
<efbd80b8-51d5-4574-bd56-e979a10643d7@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,

> Some Of My Best Friends Are Americans.

"Some of my best friends are ..." is not a winning argument.

> > > > As far as the 'gv.net' report goes, that's from the U.S. State
> > > > Dept trafficking report. It notes (you missed this) that human
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Though not prior to the invasion (which caused the present
> conditions).

Prior to the invasion al-Qaeda was not killing Iraqis. True.

Saddam was. About 10 to 12 thousand a month, plus war casualties, from
the mid-'70s to March, 2003.

The folks who lament the 'excess deaths' that have come after the
invasion never seem to get too worked up about the excess deaths prior
to the invasion. Wonder why.

steve
NotMe - 30 Jan 2008 14:24 GMT
"Steve White"

| Prior to the invasion al-Qaeda was not killing Iraqis. True.
|
| Saddam was. About 10 to 12 thousand a month, plus war casualties, from
| the mid-'70s to March, 2003.

Me thinks your numbers are a bit off.  Hitler killed 6M people over the
course of 5 years, that's an average of less than 9000 people, not just
kids, a month.

Based on the estimated population of Egypt in the time of Moses there were
not that many first born males dying on the day of the first Pass Over.
Marley - 15 Feb 2008 21:42 GMT
> "Steve White"
> |
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Based on the estimated population of Egypt in the time of Moses there were
> not that many first born males dying on the day of the first Pass Over.

Hitler was a piker.  Stalin was responsible for the deaths of 10 times
that many, and nobody in the US considered invading the SU or trying
their good friend and ally for crimes  against humanity.  Churchill,
Roosevelt were brothers at heart.  They loved state power, especially
if they could control it. BTW, Hitler considered Stalin "a beast."

Marley
Steve  White - 19 Feb 2008 04:07 GMT
In article
<956dade7-a7ab-4682-91c9-d043ea2abf90@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,

> Hitler was a piker.  Stalin was responsible for the deaths of 10 times
> that many, and nobody in the US considered invading the SU or trying
> their good friend and ally for crimes  against humanity.  

Yes, and it's to our shame.

steve
kippaherring@hotmail.com - 31 Jan 2008 00:43 GMT
> In article
> <efbd80b8-51d5-4574-bd56-e979a1064...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> "Some of my best friends are ..." is not a winning argument.

It wasn't intended to be.
It was a joke (see capital letters).
Though true anyways :)

> > > > > As far as the 'gv.net' report goes, that's from the U.S. State
> > > > > Dept trafficking report. It notes (you missed this) that human
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> invasion never seem to get too worked up about the excess deaths prior
> to the invasion. Wonder why.

Nobody is saying Saddam didn't operate an odious regime.
But that's not why the Americans went in.
Steve  White - 31 Jan 2008 03:56 GMT
In article
<70eba3b2-503b-4435-b7c5-673fecb5cde4@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <efbd80b8-51d5-4574-bd56-e979a1064...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> Nobody is saying Saddam didn't operate an odious regime. But that's
> not why the Americans went in.

It was one of the six reasons we went in. You might want to review
George Bush's speech to the Congress on that.

steve
Kathy - 31 Jan 2008 20:27 GMT
> In article
> <70eba3b2-503b-4435-b7c5-673fecb5c...@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yours is only one opinion, Steve.

I no longer believe a word Bush says or said regarding the reasons we
went in, and I gave him my vote in 2004.  I also believe that a lot of
members of congress who backed him at that time felt like I dit too,
but no longer believe in him.

Kathy
kippaherring@hotmail.com - 02 Feb 2008 15:16 GMT
> In article
> <70eba3b2-503b-4435-b7c5-673fecb5c...@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> It was one of the six reasons we went in.

A justifying prop, not a substantive reason.
Among other things, it helped placate the nation's conscience.
The U.S hasn't moved in on other equally odious regimes - such as
N.Korea.
But then they DO have nuclear weapons.

>  You might want to review George Bush's speech to the Congress on that.

> steve
Steve  White - 02 Feb 2008 23:43 GMT
In article
<19e4cba3-d35b-4951-b586-9327ab26d9b9@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,

> > > Nobody is saying Saddam didn't operate an odious regime. But
> > > that's not why the Americans went in.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> other equally odious regimes - such as N.Korea. But then they DO have
> nuclear weapons.

When the President stands before the Congress and gives his reasons,
that's what they are. It wasn't 'placating' our conscience (as if we
need that), it was making clear what we were doing and why.

As to North Korea, give us time, grasshopper.

steve
Kathy - 08 Feb 2008 20:35 GMT
> In article
> <19e4cba3-d35b-4951-b586-9327ab26d...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> steve

I no longer believe Bush told the truth then nor do I believe he is
telling the truth now.

Do you believe everything Bush says, Steve?

Kathy
Steve  White - 12 Feb 2008 03:56 GMT
In article
<7f8168a9-48eb-4829-a67a-444aa80bd152@q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <19e4cba3-d35b-4951-b586-9327ab26d...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Do you believe everything Bush says, Steve?

Depends. I do think he told the truth on Iraq. The WMD issue was a
mistake, not a lie. Unfortunate that we have a CIA that can't find it's
hind-end with either hand.

As to the suffering of the Iraqi people under Saddam, I don't have to
take GWB's word. Used to be that Democrats saw what was going on there
too.

steve
kippaherring@hotmail.com - 12 Feb 2008 13:36 GMT
> Depends. I do think he told the truth on Iraq. The WMD issue was a
> mistake, not a lie.

Depends? On what?  A lie by any other name would smell as rank.
I accept that some of the administration might have persuaded
themselves of the existence of WMDs in the absence of contrary
evidence, but they went too far by intentionally focusing on the issue
in order to create a politically convenient justification for the
invasion.
Steve  White - 15 Feb 2008 02:12 GMT
In article
<81ddba80-9d7e-4f91-8434-4cfb00320e55@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,

> > Depends. I do think he told the truth on Iraq. The WMD issue was a
> > mistake, not a lie.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> issue in order to create a politically convenient justification for
> the invasion.

Finally, some agreement, but not for the reasons you think.

According to the sources I've read, GWB didn't want to focus on WMD. He
felt it was enough to emphasize that Saddam was a genocidal monster
(true), that he'd broken his word to the U.N. (true) and that he'd
violated the Gulf War ceasefire (true).

As far as Bush was concerned, he had enough to go to war without WMD.

But Colin Powell was concerned that the British wouldn't see this as
enough, and so pushed to include WMD. And the idiot CIA chief, George
Tenet, told Bush that WMD in Iraq was a 'slam dunk' (remember that one?).

So Bush went ahead and emphasized WMD, much to our dismay when we
couldn't find them.

steve
Marley Greiner - 15 Feb 2008 06:02 GMT
> In article
> <81ddba80-9d7e-4f91-8434-4cfb00320e55@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> steve

Speaking of genocidal monsters....

Oh well, it will be much worse with McCain in charge, though I do give him
props for  ICWA and his concern about adoption corruption. I'm so glad I
hate them all.

Marley
Kat - 15 Feb 2008 16:12 GMT
> > In article
> > <81ddba80-9d7e-4f91-8434-4cfb00320e55@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Oh well, it will be much worse with McCain in charge,

Let's hope that doesn't happen.

Kathy 1
Steve  White - 19 Feb 2008 04:12 GMT
> > Oh well, it will be much worse with McCain in charge,
>
> Let's hope that doesn't happen.

Mac will peel Obama like a grape.

steve

PS: And yes, I think Obama will beat the Hildebeast.
Marley Greiner - 24 Feb 2008 18:38 GMT
>> > Oh well, it will be much worse with McCain in charge,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> PS: And yes, I think Obama will beat the Hildebeast.

All these rightwing crackpots deserve each other.

Marley
kippaherring@hotmail.com - 15 Feb 2008 14:17 GMT
> In article
> <81ddba80-9d7e-4f91-8434-4cfb00320...@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> felt it was enough to emphasize that Saddam was a genocidal monster
> (true), that he'd broken his word to the U.N. (true)

As if Bush administration itself ever gave a fig about the U.N.

> and that he'd
> violated the Gulf War ceasefire (true).
>
> As far as Bush was concerned, he had enough to go to war without WMD.

As far as he was concerned, I'm sure.
He apparently did make that crucial decision without consulting  Dick
Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell, old Uncle Tom Cobbley et al,
because "he knew what they thought".
So much for procedure.

> But Colin Powell was concerned that the British wouldn't see this as
> enough, and so pushed to include WMD. And the idiot CIA chief, George
> Tenet, told Bush that WMD in Iraq was a 'slam dunk' (remember that one?).

Don't we all?
And George Bush took the ball and ran with it.

> So Bush went ahead and emphasized WMD, much to our dismay when we
> couldn't find them.

Hrrmph. Sounds like a proper old case of blaiming the secretary to
me.

Kippa

> steve
Steve  White - 19 Feb 2008 04:10 GMT
In article
<7ddcddad-ece0-48d6-b632-b9c0ba169c37@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <81ddba80-9d7e-4f91-8434-4cfb00320...@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> As if Bush administration itself ever gave a fig about the U.N.

And he's been right every time!

> > and that he'd violated the Gulf War ceasefire (true).
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Colin Powell, old Uncle Tom Cobbley et al, because "he knew what they
> thought". So much for procedure.

Procedure? The President doesn't need agreement from his advisors to
commit military force. Our Constitution makes that pretty clear. It's
his decision, not theirs. We don't have a parliamentary system.

> > So Bush went ahead and emphasized WMD, much to our dismay when we
> > couldn't find them.
>
> Hrrmph. Sounds like a proper old case of blaiming the secretary to
> me.

Not from me. I'm pleased, WMD or no. A vicious, genocidal thug, a
one-man WMD if ever there was one, now cavorts with Himmler. Suits me
just fine.

steve
kippaherring@hotmail.com - 10 Feb 2008 02:48 GMT
> As to North Korea, give us time, grasshopper.

"Us"?
Methinks you do presume too much, Steve.
Far from everybody in the US is a neo-conservative ideologue.
Robin Harritt - 10 Feb 2008 14:17 GMT
On 10/2/08 02:48, in article
1a2ff208-2422-4653-ae7d-ecffdfa13237@b2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com,

>> As to North Korea, give us time, grasshopper.
>
> "Us"?
> Methinks you do presume too much, Steve.
> Far from everybody in the US is a neo-conservative ideologue.

Ah good, I was beginning to think...

Robin
(English liberal ideologue)
Steve  White - 12 Feb 2008 03:54 GMT
In article
<1a2ff208-2422-4653-ae7d-ecffdfa13237@b2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,

> > As to North Korea, give us time, grasshopper.
>
> "Us"?
> Methinks you do presume too much, Steve.
> Far from everybody in the US is a neo-conservative ideologue.

More's the pity ...

steve
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2010 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.