Kingston Support Group - PANGS
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Samara - 23 Feb 2008 03:49 GMT Natural Parents and Adoptees Needing Group Support
PANGS is a new self-help support group for adult adoptees and mothers and fathers of children surrendered to adoption.
Set up with the assistance of Adoption Crossroads: www.adoptioncrossroads.org
Breaking the silence, opening the door to our feelings, and giving healing a chance
About me:
born in 1968 as Samara M. Snow, surrendered to adoption at birth, 8 years into reunion with my natural mother
I am happy to announce that our first meeting is getting under way this weekend! We will be meeting weekly in Kingston. If you would like to join us, or if you have any questions, please contact me (reply to author).
Contact:
Samara
for adoptees and natural parents
Robibnikoff - 23 Feb 2008 12:22 GMT > Natural Parents and Adoptees Needing Group Support > > PANGS is a new self-help support group for adult adoptees and mothers > and fathers of children surrendered to adoption. BTW, where the hell is Kingston? Kingston, NY?
 Signature Robyn Resident Witchypoo BAAWA Knight! #1557
Kathy - 24 Feb 2008 23:52 GMT > > Natural Parents and Adoptees Needing Group Support > > > PANGS �is a new self-help support group for adult adoptees and mothers > > and fathers of children surrendered to adoption. > > BTW, where the hell is Kingston? �Kingston, NY? 'Jamaica' where you want it to be, I guess. ;-)
Kathy
Robibnikoff - 25 Feb 2008 10:41 GMT On Feb 23, 4:22?am, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:
> "Samara" <pa...@live.ca> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > BTW, where the hell is Kingston? ?Kingston, NY?
>'Jamaica' where you want it to be, I guess. ;-) Heck, no :P
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Johnny - 23 Feb 2008 17:52 GMT If you're affiliated with Joe Soll, then you're wasting your time and ours!
> Natural Parents and Adoptees Needing Group Support > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > for adoptees and natural parents Michelle la Belle - 24 Feb 2008 18:47 GMT > If you're affiliated with Joe Soll, then you're wasting your time and ours! > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Working with Joe for the past few weeks has been very helpful to me. If you're not interested in my support group, feel free to ignore my posts.
Johnny - 24 Feb 2008 20:53 GMT On Feb 23, 12:52 pm, "Johnny" <thi...@notreal.org> wrote:
> If you're affiliated with Joe Soll, then you're wasting your time and > ours! [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Working with Joe for the past few weeks has been very helpful to me. If you're not interested in my support group, feel free to ignore my posts.
Hahahahahaha... a Joe Soll sock puppet!
deja.blues - 25 Feb 2008 00:09 GMT "Working with Joe for the past few weeks has been very helpful to me. If you're not interested in my support group, feel free to ignore my posts."
So you're the OP?
Samara - 25 Feb 2008 02:23 GMT > "Working with Joe for the past few weeks has been very helpful to me. > If you're not interested in my support group, feel free to ignore my > posts." > > So you're the OP? Sorry I don't know what "OP" means.
There is overwhelming evidence to support my belief that adoption is detrimental to the emotional health of both adoptees and birth mothers..............
http://www.uoregon.edu/~adoption/studies/SchechterOAC.htm
Marshall D. Schechter, "Observations on Adopted Children," 1960 Marshall Schechter, a psychiatrist in private practice in Beverly Hills, California, reported in 1960 that adoptees were 100 times more likely than non-adoptees to present a range of serious emotional problems. Like a number of other contributions to the psychopathology literature, Schechter's report was based on a tiny number of cases. He presented information about 120 children seen in his practice between 1948 and 1953, of whom exactly sixteen (or 13.3 percent) were adopted. Since adoptees numbered less than one-tenth of one percent in the general population, adopted children were greatly over-represented in his practice. Schechter's friend, Povl Toussieng, a child psychiatrist at the famous Menninger Clinic, had also told him that up to one-third of all children seen as outpatients at the clinic were adopted. Schechter's own observations, confirmed by a trusted colleague, were the basis for his conclusion. Adoption had an emotionally damaging impact on child development.
What exactly was it about adoption that caused problems? According to Schechter, the answer could be found in the psychoanalytic theory that "object relations" (the first and closest ties formed between infants and the adults who care for them) were crucial determinants of personhood. Children could not cope with the knowledge that they had been rejected by birth parents and no amount of reassurance that their adoptive parents loved and wanted them could make up for the "severe narcissistic injury" that adoption inflicted. Each and every one of his sixteen cases illustrated "how the idea of adoption had woven itself into the framework of the child's personality configuration." Telling children they were adopted was mandatory, Schechter agreed, but it also precipitated psychological difficulties. Carefully timing and managing the details of telling could help mitigate the resulting problems. (Later studies challenged this view. See, for example, the excerpt from Benson Jaffee and David Fanshel, How They Fared in Adoption.)
Schechter was not the first person to suggest that adoption posed intrinsic psychological risks. As early as 1937, psychiatrist David Levy presented case histories showing that adoptees suffered from "primary affect hunger," a term he used to describe what is now called attachment disorder. A number of other clinicians in the U.S. and Britain published reports in the 1940s and 1950s about the deleterious consequences of growing up "without genealogy." It was the boldness of Schechter's claim that adopted children were much more likely to become neurotic and psychotic that galvanized helping professionals and therapeutic approaches to adoption. It also generated a great deal of controversy. H. David Kirk, author of Shared Fate, called Schechter's study "spurious." Many other researchers were equally skeptical that adoption was the sort of risk factor Schechter maintained it was.
Schechter's methodology drew the most fire. Small numbers of detailed case histories had long been standard features of medical research and psychiatrists renowned for their contributions to developmental theory, including Sigmund Freud and Anna Freud, relied on them extensively. But psychologists and social workers with training in scientific research methods insisted that Schechter's sample was far too small to be representative and disparaged his crude and inaccurate statistical calculations. His research design was so flawed as to be hopelessly unreliable.
Schechter responded by sending a questionnaire to members of the Southern California Psychiatric Society and various regional institutions. A follow-up report presented empirical data showing that adoptees showed up in clinical populations everywhere at much higher than average rates.
Schechter's account of the damage that adoption did to children was vigorously contested during the 1960s. Today, it is widely accepted by parents and professionals who agree that attachment and loss are at the heart of what makes adoption a distinctive and difficult experience. This consensus was efficiently summarized in a book that Schechter co-edited with developmental psychologist David Brodzinsky: The Psychology of Adoption (1990).
Robibnikoff - 25 Feb 2008 10:41 GMT >> "Working with Joe for the past few weeks has been very helpful to me. >> If you're not interested in my support group, feel free to ignore my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Sorry I don't know what "OP" means. "Original Poster".
> There is overwhelming evidence to support my belief that adoption is > detrimental to the emotional health of both adoptees and birth > mothers.............. Tha's nice.
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Banty - 25 Feb 2008 13:13 GMT >> "Working with Joe for the past few weeks has been very helpful to me. >> If you're not interested in my support group, feel free to ignore my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Sorry I don't know what "OP" means. Original poster.
New around here, huh? For one thing, Usenet is worldwide. Very very few of us live in Kingston. We don't care.
>There is overwhelming evidence to support my belief that adoption is >detrimental to the emotional health of both adoptees and birth [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Hills, California, reported in 1960 that adoptees were 100 times more >likely than non-adoptees to present a range of serious emotional 1960??!? When social attitudes and laws regarding adoption were vastly different!
::snip::
>Schechter's account of the damage that adoption did to children was >vigorously contested during the 1960s. Today, it is widely accepted by [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Schechter co-edited with developmental psychologist David Brodzinsky: >The Psychology of Adoption (1990). Well duh. A group of people who already agree that something is Bad, accept a source that agree with what they agree on.
That you use this source, instead of something more credible, speaks volumes.
Banty
deja.blues - 25 Feb 2008 13:13 GMT >> "Working with Joe for the past few weeks has been very helpful to me. >> If you're not interested in my support group, feel free to ignore my [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > detrimental to the emotional health of both adoptees and birth > mothers.............. There is overwhelming evidence that cats should stay indoors.
rpedley@cogeco.ca - 25 Feb 2008 14:05 GMT What your "evidence" doesn't address is whether adoption is worse than the situation the kid was in before being adopted, the REASONS for adoption in the first place. Parents both dead, kids being sexually/physically abused, parent(s) are drug addicts, mother/father just too young, physically or financially unable to look after a kid properly -- without comparing adoptees with all the other kids living in terrible situations with (or without) their real parents, these studies are meaningless. Sometimes in life you just gotta make do, and sometimes adoption is the only way. Life sucks and then you die, get used to it.
...
> > "Working with Joe for the past few weeks has been very helpful to me. > > If you're not interested in my support group, feel free to ignore my [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > detrimental to the emotional health of both adoptees and birth > mothers.............. Samara - 25 Feb 2008 17:00 GMT On Feb 25, 9:05 am, <rped...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> What your "evidence" doesn't address is whether adoption is worse than the > situation the kid was in before being adopted, the REASONS for adoption in [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > - Show quoted text - No; back in the baby scoop era babies were taken from their mothers simply because their mothers were unwed and unsupported. The mothers were treated like shite. There was a lot of shame and guilt associated with pregnancy out of wedlock. Before 1940 adoption was rare; after that it was seen as preferable to abortion. Then after 1970 society changed and more mothers were allowed to keep their babies.
rpedley@cogeco.ca - 25 Feb 2008 23:45 GMT And before that those same mothers may have been executed. Your point? This is 2008!
>No; back in the baby scoop era babies were taken from their mothers >simply because their mothers were unwed and unsupported. The mothers [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >1970 society changed and more mothers were allowed to keep their >babies. kippaherring@hotmail.com - 26 Feb 2008 01:47 GMT On Feb 25, 6:45 pm, <rped...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> And before that those same mothers may have been executed. Really? Oh, c'mon.
> Your point? I guess YOUR point is that they should count themselves lucky that they still have their heads. Perhaps I'm wrong. Elucidate, please.
> This is 2008! True 'nuf. However, the past and the present are a consistent membrane.
rpedley@cogeco.ca - 26 Feb 2008 01:58 GMT Depending on where they live, they might still be executed today.
On Feb 25, 6:45 pm, <rped...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> And before that those same mothers may have been executed. Really? Oh, c'mon.
> Your point? I guess YOUR point is that they should count themselves lucky that they still have their heads. Perhaps I'm wrong.
of course you're wrong
Elucidate, please.
the point is that times have changed, and yet all we're hearing about in this discussion is "evidence" and circumstances from 40-50 years ago, which are irrelevant.
> This is 2008!
>True 'nuf. >However, the past and the present are a consistent membrane. w/etf that means. is that Joe-speak?
kippaherring@hotmail.com - 26 Feb 2008 02:58 GMT On Feb 25, 8:59 pm, <rped...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> Depending on where they live, they might still be executed today. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > the point is that times have changed, and yet all we're hearing about in > this discussion is "evidence" I'm as much of a sceptic as anyone about the "evidence".
> and circumstances from 40-50 years ago, which are irrelevant. To you, maybe, but not necessarily to everyone affected by those circumstances. What's your connection, if any, to adoption?
> > This is 2008! > >True 'nuf. > >However, the past and the present are a consistent membrane. > > w/etf that means. is that Joe-speak? Joe-speak? Me? If you have to ask, you clearly don't have much of a clue. As for yourself, you do seem to be rather given to hyperbole. Like talking about those head rollin' mothers.
Michelle la Belle - 26 Feb 2008 17:02 GMT On Feb 25, 8:59 pm, <rped...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> Depending on where they live, they might still be executed today. > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > this discussion is "evidence" and circumstances from 40-50 years ago, which > are irrelevant. It is highly relevant for those of us who were adopted in the 1940 - 1970 time period.
> > This is 2008! > >True 'nuf. > >However, the past and the present are a consistent membrane. > > w/etf that means. is that Joe-speak? Michelle la Belle - 26 Feb 2008 17:01 GMT On Feb 25, 6:45 pm, <rped...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> And before that those same mothers may have been executed. Your point? This > is 2008! [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > - Show quoted text - My point is that along with myself, many people were adopted in this time period. That's why it's called the Baby Scoop Era. The fact that it still goes on is proof that society doesn't learn from its past mistakes.
Jackie - 27 Feb 2008 15:09 GMT >> >No; back in the baby scoop era babies were taken from their mothers >> >simply because their mothers were unwed and unsupported. The mothers [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >1970 society changed and more mothers were allowed to keep their >> >babies.-
>My point is that along with myself, many people were adopted in this >time period. That's why it's called the Baby Scoop Era. The fact >that it still goes on is proof that society doesn't learn from its >past mistakes. I believe women/men do have a choice today..
:From Wake Up Little Susie.. Rickie Solinger.. :Page 93 :Chapter called.. The Girl Nobody Loved. : :In postwar America, a child in trouble was not a private sorrow. This child was a public humiliation, evidence of parental, especially maternal, failure in the form, for example, :of the latchkey kid heading towards juvenile delinquency or the unwed mother. One unwed mother in a Denver maternity home observed, [Before my pregnancy] Id been the :living proof that they were good and successful parents. No matter how I tried to make up for my mistake in the future, their life together would always be clouded by a feeling :of failure. The public and professional insistence on the centrality of maternal role to white, middle-class culture rendered mothers extraordinarily vulnerable, since success in :the role depended on embracing --all at once-- such a high degree of self-denial, self mortification, and responsibility
:From page 3 in the Introduction section : :Regardless of race, they were defined and treated as deviants threatening the social order. Single, pregnant girls and women of whatever race shared the debased status of illegitimate mother: a mother with no rights, or a female who had, according to the dominate culture, no right to be a mother. For Sally and Brenda and the several hundred thousand girls and women in the situations each year between 1945 and 1965, illegitimate motherhood was a grim status.. Illegitimate motherhood is not a grim status today.. Not the way Solinger records it..
Giving a child up because a person does not want to raise a child.. holds that grim honor now.. IMO
Jackie
Michelle la Belle - 28 Feb 2008 22:23 GMT > On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:01:55 -0800 (PST), Michelle la Belle > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I believe women/men do have a choice today.. It should be an informed choice, and very often it's not because the birth mother is not informed of the many harmful psychological effects upon her and her child after separation.
> :From Wake Up Little Susie.. Rickie Solinger.. > :Page 93 [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Illegitimate motherhood is not a grim status today.. Not the way > Solinger records it.. There still exists a strong stigma against single mothers.
> Giving a child up because a person does not want to raise a child.. > holds that grim honor now.. IMO > > Jackie Robibnikoff - 28 Feb 2008 23:40 GMT >> On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:01:55 -0800 (PST), Michelle la Belle >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > birth mother is not informed of the many harmful psychological effects > upon her and her child after separation. Which aren't universal and don't happen to everyone.
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Michelle la Belle - 29 Feb 2008 00:38 GMT > >> On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:01:55 -0800 (PST), Michelle la Belle > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Which aren't universal and don't happen to everyone. It's not possible to lose your mother at birth, your primary care- giver, the woman whose body you have been living inside for 9 months, the one human being that mother/child bonding experts agree that you are bonded with for life, without having an effect on you! This goes for Everyone. This is not to say that we are all destined to end up as basket cases; I'm saying, it has an effect. What more profound loss could a human being suffer?
And even if it didn't happen to everyone, clearly it happens to at least some, and women should be informed of this risk when receiving adoption counselling. The decision to give up your baby for adoption should not be taken lightly; it is permanent; and the mother should be as well-informed as possible!
> -- > Robyn [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > - Show quoted text - rkbose@pacific.net.sg - 29 Feb 2008 01:38 GMT > It's not possible to lose your mother at birth, your primary care- > giver, the woman whose body you have been living inside for 9 months, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > as basket cases; I'm saying, it has an effect. What more profound > loss could a human being suffer? Lots. Loss of the parent without another one in sight. Loss of parental care by a mother who is unable to raise a child. Loss of that same parent at the age of 2 or 4 or 7.
I don't know about bonded for life. If it were an actual biological bond, we wouldn't hear about crappy reunions on this ng, but we do.
IMO, what is true is that the new family doesn't share the genes of the adoptee, for good or for bad, while the birthparents do. This may mean increased affinity, or in some cases, increased conflict.
If I'm not mistaken, the research shows that overall, adoptees - particularly those adopted at birth or shortly after - are about as happy and successful as most people. Compared to people growing up in the same demographic who weren't adopted, they tend to do better. This may be because of the extra resources they have access to.
> And even if it didn't happen to everyone, clearly it happens to at > least some, and women should be informed of this risk when receiving > adoption counselling. The decision to give up your baby for adoption > should not be taken lightly; it is permanent; and the mother should be > as well-informed as possible! I don't think anyone disagrees with that. Of course counseling should describe the risks both mother and child face.
However, there are risks to keeping the child as well. While that's not permanent, the general rule seems to be that the earlier a child is adopted, the better the outcome for that child. So someone who decides to keep her child, then finds she can't cope and must give it up, exposes her kid to an even greater risk. Nowadays, women who relinquish usually do so when they don't have enough resources to raise the child, and they're not getting the support they need from parents/ other relatives/ significant others. In the west, at least, I haven't discerned a stigma against single parents, though it probably exists in some sub-groups, particularly those that are more religious than the average.
I'd agree with what Heather wrote, though; there is no need to hurry the decision. A few months this way or that probably don't count.
Robibnikoff - 29 Feb 2008 02:38 GMT On Feb 28, 6:40 pm, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:
> "Michelle la Belle" <aminotem...@hotmail.com> wrote in > messagenews:bbb7966e-0d24-4dca-929a-726da7cc5294@k2g2000hse.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Which aren't universal and don't happen to everyone.
>It's not possible to lose your mother at birth, your primary care- >giver, the woman whose body you have been living inside for 9 months, >the one human being that mother/child bonding experts agree that you >are bonded with for life, without having an effect on you! I call BULLSHIT. My birthmother wasn't (and isn't) my "primary caregiver". That person was the woman that raised me. Those mother/child bonding experts are full of sh.t too. My birthmother and I aren't even "bonded", much less for life.
> This goes >for Everyone. Like I said, BULLSHIT. If you claim that "this goes for Everyone", then PROVE IT.
> This is not to say that we are all destined to end up >as basket cases; I'm saying, it has an effect. And I'm saying that it's not the case for EVERYONE.
> What more profound >loss could a human being suffer? Gee, maybe having someone who raised you DIE? Ya think?
>And even if it didn't happen to everyone, clearly it happens to at >least some, and women should be informed of this risk when receiving >adoption counselling. The decision to give up your baby for adoption >should not be taken lightly; it is permanent; and the mother should be >as well-informed as possible! Well, DUH. I'm not saying that the woman shouldn't be as informed as possible, but the other stuff is a load of crap.
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Steve White - 29 Feb 2008 04:31 GMT In article <2667875e-2694-44df-abd5-23be05547aa1@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
> It's not possible to lose your mother at birth, your primary care- > giver, the woman whose body you have been living inside for 9 months, > the one human being that mother/child bonding experts agree that you > are bonded with for life, without having an effect on you! That's your opinion. By seeing the world thus, you have a problem: some adoptees disagree with you. Strongly. Your position, taken to its (il)logical conclusion, forces you to see those adoptees as 1) sick 2) delusional or 3) evil.
Which is it?
> This goes for Everyone. This is not to say that we are all destined > to end up as basket cases; I'm saying, it has an effect. What more > profound loss could a human being suffer? You lived through at least part of the 20th century and ask this question ...
> And even if it didn't happen to everyone, ... ... but you just said it did ...
> ... clearly it happens to at least some, and women should be informed > of this risk when receiving adoption counselling. The decision to > give up your baby for adoption should not be taken lightly; it is > permanent; and the mother should be as well-informed as possible! No one disagrees with informed consent. The issue is what information, and who does the informing.
steve
Tom - 29 Feb 2008 13:11 GMT > In article > <2667875e-2694-44df-abd5-23be05547...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Which is it? To be fair, I think she's already made clear her position that those of us who haven't experienced any "effect" are delusional. Myself, I would have gone for "evil".
It's an odd crossroads, though, in our public discourse when we can't disagree with people without accusing them of being delusional. If I were American, I'd blame it on Karl Rove.
> > This goes for Everyone. This is not to say that we are all destined > > to end up as basket cases; I'm saying, it has an effect. What more > > profound loss could a human being suffer? > > You lived through at least part of the 20th century and ask this > question ... Forget the catastrophic losses of the 20th Century. It's the small, personal ones that are often most deeply troubling. And, myself, I think the death of a child must be far more profound than the death of a parent--while I've experienced the latter, I hope to God I never experience the former.
And, as something of an aside, the entire enterprise of Ms la Belle's advocacy seems to be the establishment of some sort of mirror image between a mother relinquishing a child and the child being relinquished--that, somehow, an adoptee relinquished at birth experiences a loss in much the same way a mother placing her child for adoption does. Mind you, I lived in Kingston for a few years. It's pretty depressing and grey this time of year. Maybe that's Ms la Belle's problem--she's just trying to while away the time, waiting for the sun, with these interesting ideas. I just hope she doesn't get scared away--the group's been far more entertaining this last week than it has been for quite some time.
> > And even if it didn't happen to everyone, ... > > ... but you just said it did ... Again, to be fair, I think "it" probably refers to ending up a basket case.
Tom
> > ... clearly it happens to at least some, and women should be informed > > of this risk when receiving adoption counselling. The decision to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > No one disagrees with informed consent. The issue is what information, > and who does the informing. Steve White - 02 Mar 2008 04:55 GMT In article <2a68d6e6-461d-4cdf-acae-ea4ad4b54b66@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> > In article > > <2667875e-2694-44df-abd5-23be05547...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > of us who haven't experienced any "effect" are delusional. Myself, I > would have gone for "evil". Yup, evil.
> It's an odd crossroads, though, in our public discourse when we can't > disagree with people without accusing them of being delusional. If I > were American, I'd blame it on Karl Rove. Why not? Everyone else does. I had no idea Karl Rove was that good.
> > > This goes for Everyone. This is not to say that we are all > > > destined to end up as basket cases; I'm saying, it has an effect. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > of a parent--while I've experienced the latter, I hope to God I never > experience the former. Interesting point, though I don't think she was going for the small, personal loss -- she's nailed herself to the big cross in the middle.
> And, as something of an aside, the entire enterprise of Ms la Belle's > advocacy seems to be the establishment of some sort of mirror image [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > get scared away--the group's been far more entertaining this last > week than it has been for quite some time. It was entertaining way in the past, too, but in the way a bad movie is entertaining. Ms. La Belle seems to want the starring role in "Plan 9 from Outer Space." She's welcome to it.
steve
Marley - 29 Feb 2008 05:21 GMT > > >> On Tue, 26 Feb2008 09:01:55 -0800(PST), Michelle la Belle > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > as basket cases; I'm saying, it has an effect. What more profound > loss could a human being suffer? Bonding schmonding. More honky middle class privilege New Age crap. Baybees are parasites. They bond with who pays attention to them.
Marley
> And even if it didn't happen to everyone, clearly it happens to at > least some, and women should be informed of this risk when receiving [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > > - Show quoted text - Robibnikoff - 29 Feb 2008 11:39 GMT snip
>> It's not possible to lose your mother at birth, your primary care- >> giver, the woman whose body you have been living inside for 9 months, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Bonding schmonding. More honky middle class privilege New Age crap. > Baybees are parasites. They bond with who pays attention to them. And some of us real sick adoptees only bond with the family cat! ;)
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rkbose@pacific.net.sg - 01 Mar 2008 17:42 GMT > snip > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > And some of us real sick adoptees only bond with the family cat! ;) Unless its been peed on first.
Robibnikoff - 01 Mar 2008 18:51 GMT >> snip >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Unless its been peed on first. Well, duh!
Gotta save that for after formal introductions ;)
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Kat - 29 Feb 2008 11:33 GMT On Feb 28, 6:40 pm, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:
> "Michelle la Belle" <aminotem...@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:bbb7966e-0d24-4dca-929a-726da7cc5294@k2g2000hse.googlegroups.com ...
> > On Feb 27, 10:09 am, Jackie <jackiejda...@w3connex.ca> wrote: > >> On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:01:55 -0800 (PST), Michelle la Belle > > >> <aminotem...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >No; back in the baby scoop era babies were taken from their mothers > >> >> >simply because their mothers were unwed and unsupported. The mothers
> >> >> >were treated like shite. There was a lot of shame and guilt > >> >> >associated with pregnancy out of wedlock. Before 1940 adoption was [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Which aren't universal and don't happen to everyone. It's not possible to lose your mother at birth, your primary care- giver, the woman whose body you have been living inside for 9 months, the one human being that mother/child bonding experts agree that you are bonded with for life, without having an effect on you!
Really? Have you interviewed/researched all of them? I've never seen 'experts' in *any* field all agree on one thing.
>This goes for Everyone.
Wow you really like to generalize don't you? Any pronouncements you'd like to make about African- Americans? Italians? Butchers? Bakers? Candlestick Makers?
> This is not to say that we Here's a clue, lose the "we" and start speaking for yourself.
> are all destined to end up as basket cases; I'm saying, it has an effect. What more profound loss could a human being suffer?
There are plenty and that you can't think of any says a) you have been a very lucky girl in life; b) you have blinders on when it comes to this subect; or c) you really are clueless.
And even if it didn't happen to everyone, clearly it happens to at least some, and women should be informed of this risk when receiving adoption counselling. The decision to give up your baby for adoption should not be taken lightly; it is permanent; and the mother should be as well-informed as possible!
> -- Well Duh. It is obvious you haven't spent much time here in alt. a and you are under the delusion that the inhabitants don't know nothin' about this thing here called adoption and you are here to inform us all and pierce our denial.
Kathy 1
Robibnikoff - 29 Feb 2008 11:35 GMT > "Michelle la Belle" <aminotempty@hotmail.com> wrote in message snip> >
>> And even if it didn't happen to everyone, clearly it happens to at >> least some, and women should be informed of this risk when receiving [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > our > denial. Sounds kinky! ;)
 Signature Robyn Resident Witchypoo BAAWA Knight! #1557
Kathy - 29 Feb 2008 17:01 GMT > > "Michelle la Belle" <aminotem...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > BAAWA Knight! > #1557 I'll pierce yours if you pierce mine.
When we're done with that, we'll work on our blinders.
Kathy
Robibnikoff - 29 Feb 2008 18:10 GMT On Feb 29, 3:35 am, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:
> "Kat" <katla...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Sounds kinky! ;)
>I'll pierce yours if you pierce mine. Oh my.
>When we're done with that, we'll work on our blinders. I have some lovely embroidery thread and silk fabric ;)
 Signature Robyn Resident Witchypoo BAAWA Knight! #1557
kippaherring@hotmail.com - 01 Mar 2008 01:09 GMT > "Kathy" <Meagan...@gmail.com> wrote in message > > >When we're done with that, we'll work on our blinders. > > I have some lovely embroidery thread and silk fabric ;) How decorous you are. Have a cucumber sandwich. Do you take crème with your tea?
Robibnikoff - 01 Mar 2008 10:24 GMT On Feb 29, 1:10 pm, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:
> "Kathy" <Meagan...@gmail.com> wrote in message > > >When we're done with that, we'll work on our blinders. > > I have some lovely embroidery thread and silk fabric ;)
>How decorous you are. >Have a cucumber sandwich. Do you take crème with your tea? Absolutely. Charmed, I'm sure.
Now, will that be one lump or two? <hides mallet behind back>
 Signature Robyn Resident Witchypoo BAAWA Knight! #1557
Julia Rollings - 01 Mar 2008 09:01 GMT >On Feb 28, 6:40 pm, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote: >> "Michelle la Belle" <aminotem...@hotmail.com> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] >thing here called adoption and you are here to inform us all and pierce our >denial. Not an adoptee, but could I get my denial pierced please. I've eight piercings but so far my denial is intact!
Julia
>Kathy 1 Kathy - 29 Feb 2008 16:57 GMT > > >> On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:01:55 -0800 (PST), Michelle la Belle > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > as basket cases; I'm saying, it has an effect. What more profound > loss could a human being suffer? Yadda, yadda, yadda. There you go again, preaching on with generalizations.
Speak for yourself. You certainly are not qualified to speak for any other.
> And even if it didn't happen to everyone, clearly it happens to at > least some, and women should be informed of this risk when receiving > adoption counselling. The decision to give up your baby for adoption > should not be taken lightly; it is permanent; and the mother should be > as well-informed as possible! More blah. <yawn>
What do you do? Spend your day copying the above rhetoric off of the adoption crossroads website?
If you want credibility here, you had better learn who your audience is.
Kathy
> > -- > > Robyn [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Polly - 01 Mar 2008 11:46 GMT Like I said before, major brain wash by Soll! Convince these people there is something wrong with them, hence therapy and cash flow.
On Feb 28, 6:40 pm, "Robibnikoff" <witchy...@broomstick.com> wrote:
> "Michelle la Belle" <aminotem...@hotmail.com> wrote in > messagenews:bbb7966e-0d24-4dca-929a-726da7cc5294@k2g2000hse.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Which aren't universal and don't happen to everyone. It's not possible to lose your mother at birth, your primary care- giver, the woman whose body you have been living inside for 9 months, the one human being that mother/child bonding experts agree that you are bonded with for life, without having an effect on you! This goes for Everyone. This is not to say that we are all destined to end up as basket cases; I'm saying, it has an effect. What more profound loss could a human being suffer?
And even if it didn't happen to everyone, clearly it happens to at least some, and women should be informed of this risk when receiving adoption counselling. The decision to give up your baby for adoption should not be taken lightly; it is permanent; and the mother should be as well-informed as possible!
> -- > Robyn [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Kathy - 29 Feb 2008 16:52 GMT > > On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 09:01:55 -0800 (PST), Michelle la Belle > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > birth mother is not informed of the many harmful psychological effects > upon her and her child after separation. Ok, I've been sitting on my hands long enough.
You come across as a preaching to the choir dim-wit. You prattle on as though the majority of readiers on this newsgroup are clueless of the process which would lead one to make an informative choice. So get it straight.... We know.
The problem with your narrow pov is that it is all encompassing and full of generalizations. You really are not qualified to write for anyone's experience but your own. You read a bunch of stuff, and assign it to an entire class of women, and you are wrong about a lot of it.
You're an adoptee, aren't you? If I have this correct, why don't you stick to a subject you know about, "your experience".
Kathy
<snip>
> > :From Wake Up Little Susie.. Rickie Solinger.. > > :Page 93 [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Jackie - 01 Mar 2008 14:43 GMT I wrote
>> I believe women/men do have a choice today.. > >It should be an informed choice, and very often it's not because the >birth mother is not informed of the many harmful psychological effects >upon her and her child after separation. Who can tell a pregnant woman that her child would be better off with her? Who knows that very very personal information? I sure as heck don't..
And who has priority in this?
The child that may be put into foster care years later because the family life is intolerable?
Or the woman/man that can not face the consequences of his/her actions..
>> :From Wake Up Little Susie.. Rickie Solinger.. >> :Page 93 [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >There still exists a strong stigma against single mothers. There is a strong stigma against women/girls that are giving their child up because they know they can not provide for the child.. do not want to provide for the child...
There is a strong stigma against a woman that has had her child taken from her.. from an abusive situation that she is unable to cope with.. So many judges.. So many deciding what someone else should do..
Jackie
Kronies. - 28 Feb 2008 18:20 GMT Just curious: So far, how much money have you forked over to Adoption Crossroads? How many healing weekends did you go on? How much were they?
On Feb 25, 6:45 pm, <rped...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> And before that those same mothers may have been executed. Your point? > This [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > - Show quoted text - My point is that along with myself, many people were adopted in this time period. That's why it's called the Baby Scoop Era. The fact that it still goes on is proof that society doesn't learn from its past mistakes.
 Signature Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Michelle la Belle - 28 Feb 2008 22:27 GMT > Just curious: So far, how much money have you forked over to Adoption > Crossroads? How many healing weekends did you go on? How much were they? You seem to know about the healing weekends - why not look up the price yourself? The only money I have forked out is the amount to pay for one book.
> On Feb 25, 6:45 pm, <rped...@cogeco.ca> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > -- > Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com Polly - 01 Mar 2008 11:48 GMT So the book fixed you and made you all better or do you have any healing weekends or sessions with Soll lined up?
On Feb 28, 1:20 pm, "Kronies." <KroniesOfM...@limes.com> wrote:
> Just curious: So far, how much money have you forked over to Adoption > Crossroads? How many healing weekends did you go on? How much were they? You seem to know about the healing weekends - why not look up the price yourself? The only money I have forked out is the amount to pay for one book.
> "Michelle la Belle" <aminotem...@hotmail.com> wrote in > messagenews:74c65a68-f1b1-46ef-b419-679d20344f4d@i7g2000prf.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > -- > Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com Marley - 29 Feb 2008 05:18 GMT > Just curious: So far, how much money have you forked over to Adoption > Crossroads? How many healing weekends did you go on? How much were they? And did you have a co-ed bedroom?
Marley
> On Feb 25, 6:45 pm, <rped...@cogeco.ca> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > -- > Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com Mo - 29 Feb 2008 11:36 GMT > My point is that along with myself, many people were adopted in this > time period. That's why it's called the Baby Scoop Era. It may be where YOU live, but there's a whole world outside your limited scope where it is NOT.
> The fact > that it still goes on is proof that society doesn't learn from its > past mistakes. YOUR society. This is an international newsgroup, the rest of the world couldn't care less about your LOCAL issues.
 Signature Mo
Samara - 06 Mar 2008 21:32 GMT On Feb 29, 6:36 am, "Mo" <send dot mail dot to dot m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > My point is that along with myself, many people were adopted in this > > time period. That's why it's called the Baby Scoop Era. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Mo With the group being called, "Kingston for sale" I figured it was a Kingston group. Kingston, ON, that is.
Mo - 06 Mar 2008 21:48 GMT > On Feb 29, 6:36 am, "Mo" <send dot mail dot to dot m...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Kingston group. > Kingston, ON, that is. You're posting in alt.mothers, where exactly is the Kingston in that??
 Signature Mo
Michelle la Belle - 06 Mar 2008 21:53 GMT On Mar 6, 4:48 pm, "Mo" <send dot mail dot to dot m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 29, 6:36 am, "Mo" <send dot mail dot to dot m...@gmail.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > - Show quoted text - There are birth mothers in that group that may be near Kingston. Not having a list of members, I have no way of telling whether there are some local people in the groups or not. But there may be, and I am offering support to those who are interested.
rpedley@cogeco.ca - 06 Mar 2008 22:24 GMT BTW, Steve Jobs was adopted. Seems to be doing ok.
On Mar 6, 4:48 pm, "Mo" <send dot mail dot to dot m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Samara wrote: > > On Feb 29, 6:36 am, "Mo" <send dot mail dot to dot m...@gmail.com> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > - Show quoted text - There are birth mothers in that group that may be near Kingston. Not having a list of members, I have no way of telling whether there are some local people in the groups or not. But there may be, and I am offering support to those who are interested.
Mo - 06 Mar 2008 22:31 GMT > BTW, Steve Jobs was adopted. Seems to be doing ok. > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > There are birth mothers in that group Name them.
> that may be near Kingston. So you are going to post in all thousands of Usenet groups?
> Not > having a list of members, <snort> for a USENET group??
> I have no way of telling whether there are > some local people in the groups or not. Yet you have every way of telling you are posting messages of no interest whatsoever in international newsgroups.
> But there may be, and I am > offering support to those who are interested. Ah yes, so if you'd want to sell something locally, you'd advertise on CNN International?
 Signature Mo
Robibnikoff - 06 Mar 2008 22:24 GMT On Feb 29, 6:36 am, "Mo" <send dot mail dot to dot m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Michelle la Belle wrote: > > My point is that along with myself, many people were adopted in this [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > -- > Mo
>With the group being called, "Kingston for sale" I figured it was a >Kingston group. >Kingston, ON, that is. You might want to keep in mind there's more than one Kingston out there.
 Signature Robyn Resident Witchypoo BAAWA Knight! #1557
Mo - 06 Mar 2008 22:33 GMT > On Feb 29, 6:36 am, "Mo" <send dot mail dot to dot m...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > You might want to keep in mind there's more than one Kingston out > there. With the difference local vs. international not even being clear, I doubt this is going to happen.
 Signature Mo
Matt Probert - 02 Jul 2008 10:24 GMT >>No; back in the baby scoop era babies were taken from their mothers >>simply because their mothers were unwed and unsupported. The mothers [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >And before that those same mothers may have been executed. Your point? This >is 2008! Actually in the UK they were committed as insane. Even worse than being executed.
My own mother, in 1965 was pressurised by the "Chichester Diocese Moral Welfare Association" and the rest of society to give up her child. This may be 2008, but she ist still alive. So am I. Those involved then are still coming to terms with things now.
Have things improved? I'm not certain to what extent they have. They have changed, but I still perceive children are placed into "supermarkets" where desperate wannabe parents go to get a suitable model.
And the pain of separation is no less now than it ever has been.
Matt
-- The Probert Encyclopaedia http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com
Jackie - 02 Jul 2008 16:13 GMT >My own mother, in 1965 was pressurised by the "Chichester Diocese >Moral Welfare Association" and the rest of society to give up her [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >"supermarkets" where desperate wannabe parents go to get a suitable >model. I believe things have improved.. I believe choice is very important in adoption today.. Yes there are terrible agencies/lawyers/adoption facilitators and yes there is force but IMO most of the time women do make the decision and adoptive parents do their best to keep the adoption open..
>And the pain of separation is no less now than it ever has been. Secrets and lies is what cripples us..
Jackie
Marley Greiner - 25 Feb 2008 17:25 GMT >> "Working with Joe for the past few weeks has been very helpful to me. >> If you're not interested in my support group, feel free to ignore my [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > Schechter co-edited with developmental psychologist David Brodzinsky: > The Psychology of Adoption (1990). Marshall Schecter is hardly Joe Soll. Please learn to discern.
Marley
Matt Probert - 02 Jul 2008 10:19 GMT >There is overwhelming evidence to support my belief that adoption is >detrimental to the emotional health of both adoptees and birth >mothers.............. I probably shouldn't respond but....
As an adult, who was adopted at birth, and perhaps more pertinently was informed of his status when under five years old, I know that I have suffered emotional health difficulties as a result.
whether it was the adoption, or the curcumstances of the adoption I could not say for certain. Perhaps if I was never aware of my status I should not have suffered as I did, I can not say.
I can say I am not associated with "pangs" in any shape or form. Nor do I wish to be, before you ask.
Matt
-- The Probert Encyclopaedia http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com
Robibnikoff - 02 Jul 2008 10:36 GMT >>There is overwhelming evidence to support my belief that adoption is >>detrimental to the emotional health of both adoptees and birth [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > was informed of his status when under five years old, I know that I > have suffered emotional health difficulties as a result. Really? Such as?
 Signature Robyn Resident Witchypoo BAAWA Knight! #1557 If you can't be a good example.... You'll just have to be a horrible warning.
Royden - 03 Jul 2008 03:42 GMT > >There is overwhelming evidence to support my belief that adoption is > >detrimental to the emotional health of both adoptees and birth [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > could not say for certain. Perhaps if I was never aware of my status I > should not have suffered as I did, I can not say. Is it possible that your emotional health difficulties were a result of an inherited condition and had nothing to do with your adoption?
I was also adopted at 13 mos. of age, and told about my adoption when I was under 5 yrs of age but I had loving parents who did not make me feel unwanted, or to feel that I had been unwanted by my birthmother, or give me any reason to have emotional problems about it. I never gave it a thought about why I had been adopted, but only knew that I had a home and a family.
> I can say I am not associated with "pangs" in any shape or form. Nor > do I wish to be, before you ask. > > Matt Robibnikoff - 03 Jul 2008 09:49 GMT >> >There is overwhelming evidence to support my belief that adoption is >> >detrimental to the emotional health of both adoptees and birth [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > thought about why I had been adopted, but only knew that I had a home > and a family. That pretty much sounds like my experience as well, except that I was adopted at birth. All my emotional problems came later when I was reuniting with my birth family, who turned out to be quite a kooky bunch ;)
 Signature Robyn Resident Witchypoo BAAWA Knight! #1557 If you can't be a good example.... You'll just have to be a horrible warning.
Johnny - 04 Jul 2008 00:14 GMT >>> >There is overwhelming evidence to support my belief that adoption is >>> >detrimental to the emotional health of both adoptees and birth [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > reuniting with my birth family, who turned out to be quite a kooky bunch > ;) So, you come by being a nut case honestly!!
Carmen Gauvin-O'Donnell - 04 Jul 2008 02:25 GMT Hi folks! You guys do realize that this is a forsale group for Kingston, Ontario Canada right? Not Kingston in England?
That having been said, I lived in Twickenham as a child and I have fond memories of my mum taking me to Bentalls (sp?) to shop in Kingston right down the road.
Does the store still exist? Mind you, this was 74-78 so many many moons ago...
Carmen
>>>> >There is overwhelming evidence to support my belief that adoption is >>>> >detrimental to the emotional health of both adoptees and birth [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > So, you come by being a nut case honestly!! Robin Harritt - 04 Jul 2008 09:58 GMT > Hi folks! You guys do realize that this is a forsale group for > Kingston, Ontario Canada right? Not Kingston in England? Noo, this is al.adoption where I'm reading it, have you heard of the phenomenon of 'cross posting'?
> That having been said, I lived in Twickenham as a child and I have > fond memories of my mum taking me to Bentalls (sp?) to shop in > Kingston right down the road. Kingston on Thames? I helped to build a house there in 1970, not been back since though
> Does the store still exist? Mind you, this was 74-78 so many many > moons ago... > > Carmen http://www.bentalls.co.uk/
It would appear so
Robin
*
Robibnikoff - 04 Jul 2008 10:48 GMT > Hi folks! You guys do realize that this is a forsale group for Kingston, > Ontario Canada right? Not Kingston in England? No offense, but I honestly couldn't give a crap either way.
 Signature Robyn Resident Witchypoo BAAWA Knight! #1557 If you can't be a good example.... You'll just have to be a horrible warning.
Johnny - 04 Jul 2008 16:20 GMT >> Hi folks! You guys do realize that this is a forsale group for Kingston, >> Ontario Canada right? Not Kingston in England? > > No offense, but I honestly couldn't give a crap either way. Liar, you meant offense and you know it!
rpedley@cogeco.ca - 04 Jul 2008 17:36 GMT Did not, neener neener!
> >> Hi folks! You guys do realize that this is a forsale group for Kingston, > >> Ontario Canada right? Not Kingston in England? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Liar, you meant offense and you know it! Robibnikoff - 05 Jul 2008 11:06 GMT > Did not, neener neener! LOL - well, while I didn't *intentionally* mean to offend, I also didn't give a crap if I did or not. Does that count?
 Signature Robyn Resident Witchypoo BAAWA Knight! #1557 If you can't be a good example.... You'll just have to be a horrible warning.
>> >> Hi folks! You guys do realize that this is a forsale group for > Kingston, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >> Liar, you meant offense and you know it! Polly - 28 Feb 2008 14:58 GMT Ummmm...ask a few veterans of alt.adoption on their opinions of Joe Soll, a man who will not admit that his own birthmother was FOUND and rejected him. He thinks ALL adoptees need his help and treatment and that he was put here on this earth to charge high fees just to do that. Did he get you in a fetal position yet and make you "go back into the womb?" LOL
On Feb 23, 12:52 pm, "Johnny" <thi...@notreal.org> wrote:
> If you're affiliated with Joe Soll, then you're wasting your time and > ours! [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Working with Joe for the past few weeks has been very helpful to me. If you're not interested in my support group, feel free to ignore my posts.
Michelle la Belle - 28 Feb 2008 22:26 GMT > Ummmm...ask a few veterans of alt.adoption on their opinions of Joe Soll, a > man who will not admit that his own birthmother was FOUND and rejected him. > He thinks ALL adoptees need his help and treatment and that he was put here > on this earth to charge high fees just to do that. Did he get you in a fetal > position yet and make you "go back into the womb?" LOL You can laugh all you like, you can believe what you like. Joe charges me NOTHING for his help. No, he has not made me go back to the womb, because, as his book clearly states, for us to go back to that age would be dangerous. As for his birth mother finding him, I wouldn't know, but as you are wrong on the other two points, ...
> On Feb 23, 12:52 pm, "Johnny" <thi...@notreal.org> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Polly - 01 Mar 2008 11:50 GMT I don't think I am wrong, Michelle. Funny, I didn't know that buying a book would fix one and make one all better. I thought healing weekends were needed along with counseling sessions. I know of one girl who sat in her birthmother's lap while Soll encouraged her to cry for her Mommy. You push Soll's book but you haven't met him yet?
On Feb 28, 9:58 am, "Polly" <Purbr...@limes.com> wrote:
> Ummmm...ask a few veterans of alt.adoption on their opinions of Joe Soll, > a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > fetal > position yet and make you "go back into the womb?" LOL You can laugh all you like, you can believe what you like. Joe charges me NOTHING for his help. No, he has not made me go back to the womb, because, as his book clearly states, for us to go back to that age would be dangerous. As for his birth mother finding him, I wouldn't know, but as you are wrong on the other two points, ...
> "Michelle la Belle" <aminotem...@hotmail.com> wrote in > messagenews:815cdf3a-657f-47a1-a96b-854ee49c11d0@64g2000hsw.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Kronies. - 28 Feb 2008 18:24 GMT Still curious as to how much money you have forked over to Adoption Crossroads and how much for all the "Healiing Weekends." I suppose Soll paid his own way? LOL
On Feb 23, 12:52 pm, "Johnny" <thi...@notreal.org> wrote:
> If you're affiliated with Joe Soll, then you're wasting your time and > ours! [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Working with Joe for the past few weeks has been very helpful to me. If you're not interested in my support group, feel free to ignore my posts.
 Signature Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Polly - 28 Feb 2008 15:10 GMT I guess Adoption Crossroads must be hurting for cash these days. Tell me, does Joe still have NYC adoptees pay him for step-by-step directions no how to get their birthname?
Polly
> Natural Parents and Adoptees Needing Group Support > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > for adoptees and natural parents
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