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lumpy noggins

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The Watsons - 13 Apr 2005 19:11 GMT
So we just got back from Sproglette's WBV. She's right in the middle for
height, but weight's a little behind. NBD.

What was remarkeable is that her doctor had us get a head xray for the "bump
on her noggin" that we thought was normal; it seems that there's a suture
(meiotic? meitotic?) that's possibly closing too soon, so he's referred us
to a cranio-facial surgeon for an eval.

I'm not enjoying the prospect of someone slicing into Sproglette's skull,
but I'd like to know what everyone else does about this so I can make
something approaching an informed decision.

thanks,
Jess
Dagny - 13 Apr 2005 21:10 GMT
NO STOP.  There is evidence that ionizing radiation (x-rays) to a baby's
head can cause PERMANENT NEUROLOGICAL IMPAIRMENT (LOWER IQ).  I HATE YOUR
DOCTOR COVERING HIS a.s AT YOUR DAUGHTER'S EXPENSE.  You weren't informed of
this study were you?  Or of the fact that there is little really known about
whether craniostenosis at one suture causes the baby any problems?  (How
many of these babies had ionizing radiation when they look at whether these
babies have "normal" development?)  Since he already has possibly harmed
your daughter, I am making you worried and angry to stop you having a cat
scan which is more radiation yet is the standard of care for suspected
craniostenosis.  But there is even a study that shows that cat scans are
probably useless for diagnosing craniostenosis since in the study they
always confirmed the neurosurgeon's suspected diagnosis.  Please study this
matter very hard before proceeding.  My son has an oddly shaped head and
this is why I have researched this quite recently since a pediatrician
thought it was 80% chance completely normal but wanted to refer me for a cat
scan.

http://www.lapregnancy.com/scoops_a-d/ct_scan_radiation_check_out_the_facts_befo
rehand.htm


Did you think shoddy medicine stopped at labor interventions?  Not hardly.

Rant over.

Dagny
The Watsons - 13 Apr 2005 21:54 GMT
> NO STOP.  There is evidence that ionizing radiation (x-rays) to a baby's
> head can cause PERMANENT NEUROLOGICAL IMPAIRMENT (LOWER IQ).  I HATE YOUR
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Rant over.

I don't need a rant, I need more information about craniosyntosis than I can
find in a ten minute websearch between an anatomy lab, a math exam and night
class.

If xrays were going to impair IQ, my sister and I would not have above
average to superior IQs, and we've both had far more than two xrays in our
lives. CT scans certainly also aren't going to impair IQ either (we've had a
couple of those too), but her skull not having the room to accomodate her
brain will do far more than drop her IQ a couple of points.

Jess
Dagny - 13 Apr 2005 23:01 GMT
> I don't need a rant, I need more information about craniosyntosis than I
> can find in a ten minute websearch between an anatomy lab, a math exam and
> night class.

Well you will pick your priorities according to your values.  I'm sorry I
don't have time to write you a research paper.  You may decide to expose
your young child's developing brain to radiation because you decide that the
risk is worth the benefit.

> If xrays were going to impair IQ, my sister and I would not have above
> average to superior IQs, and we've both had far more than two xrays in our
> lives.

Well I don't know what you test out at but your logical reasoning skills
need some work.  Let's assume you understand we are talking about head
x-rays in the first 18 months of life (which IIRC was what was looked at in
the study), not an arm x-ray or a head x-ray at age 13.  How do you *know*
you didn't lose 5, 10 IQ points?  I have, in childhood and adulthood, IQ
tested in the 140-150 range. If, as a six month old, I'd been exposed to
radiation and ended up with an adult IQ of 130, would it make sense for me
to say "I'm average to superior so x-rays of tiny infants don't impair IQ?"

>CT scans certainly also aren't going to impair IQ either (we've had a
>couple of those too), but her skull not having the room to accomodate her
>brain will do far more than drop her IQ a couple of points.

Oh my god.

Dagny
The Watsons - 13 Apr 2005 23:20 GMT
> Well you will pick your priorities according to your values.  I'm sorry I
> don't have time to write you a research paper.  You may decide to expose
> your young child's developing brain to radiation because you decide that
> the risk is worth the benefit.

You know, I asked for realistic information, not a rant about the evillness
of xrays and how horrible doctors are and my poor logic skills. Please
either offer me some realistic support in terms of information or warm and
fuzzy type stuff, or leave me alone. I'm facing a possibility that a surgeon
may very well decide to slice our daughter's forehead/browline open and
install some plates. This is a bit more stressful than having to deal with
reflux, and once you add end of semester crunch on top of it all, I'm not
having a good day and listening to a rant only makes it worse.

Jess
Dagny - 13 Apr 2005 23:42 GMT
>> Well you will pick your priorities according to your values.  I'm sorry I
>> don't have time to write you a research paper.  You may decide to expose
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Jess

Did you not catch that I am going through the same situation?  I knew I was
going to make your day worse.  I would *want* someone to tell me if I was
about to potentially harm my child more.

You don't need warm fuzzies.  You need a kick in the behind.  A surgeon is
not going to determine whether your daughter gets more radiation and
surgery, you will.  I have read enough research to doubt whether they know
for sure that uncomplicated single suture craniostenosis causes brain
damage.  I am more confident in the research that ionizing radiation does.

You may draw other conclusions.  Go ahead.  I am personally involved in this
with my own child.  I will rant when I want to.

THIS IS YOUR CHILD'S FUTURE.  I am asking you to put your schoolwork on hold
for her.  I have identified some potentially serious problems with standard
of care.  You don't want to take responsibility, go right on.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/328/7430/19
The Watsons - 14 Apr 2005 00:35 GMT
> You don't need warm fuzzies.  You need a kick in the behind.  A surgeon is
> not going to determine whether your daughter gets more radiation and
> surgery, you will.  I have read enough research to doubt whether they know
> for sure that uncomplicated single suture craniostenosis causes brain
> damage.  I am more confident in the research that ionizing radiation does.

And I'm much more confident that her brain not having the room to grow will
do much more than a very slim possibly lower her IQ a point or few.

> You may draw other conclusions.  Go ahead.  I am personally involved in
> this with my own child.  I will rant when I want to.

Fine. Rant away. I'll even give you the thirty five cents to call someone
who's willing to listen to you. Is there something about *I want credible,
reliable medical fact to tell me what I'm looking at, not a rant when I'm
already stressed out* that's too complicated to understand?

> THIS IS YOUR CHILD'S FUTURE.  I am asking you to put your schoolwork on
> hold for her.  I have identified some potentially serious problems with
> standard of care.  You don't want to take responsibility, go right on.

Responsibility? How's about this schoolwork is what's putting clothes on her
back and food in her stomach and a roof over her head and is what's going to
give her a better standard of living than I ever had in just under three
years? If you'd like, I'll be *glad* to ignore my nursing classes, pay back
the eight grand I've already gotten paid for this semester, sell my house
and find a relative for us to move in with, all so I can be "responsible"
enough to not rely on a support network I thought I had.

Jess
Lara - 14 Apr 2005 01:23 GMT
> http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/328/7430/19

Is this your cite? It appears to be about the effects of radiotherapy in
the early 20th century. There is also a major confounder unaccounted for
(possible presence of Sturge-Weber syndrome).

Any evidence linking this sort of effect to 21st century skull X-ray?
Without shouting, preferably? Ta.

Lara
Larry McMahan - 13 Apr 2005 23:28 GMT
: So we just got back from Sproglette's WBV. She's right in the middle for
: height, but weight's a little behind. NBD.

: What was remarkeable is that her doctor had us get a head xray for the "bump
: on her noggin" that we thought was normal; it seems that there's a suture
: (meiotic? meitotic?) that's possibly closing too soon, so he's referred us
: to a cranio-facial surgeon for an eval.

: I'm not enjoying the prospect of someone slicing into Sproglette's skull,
: but I'd like to know what everyone else does about this so I can make
: something approaching an informed decision.

: thanks,
: Jess

Jess,

I know that Dagny's reponse came off as rather agressive and perhaps
seemed to be chiding you for the decision you have made already.

However, her research is usually very good, and I would suspect that
the risks she points out are pretty real.  If you have doubts, then
ask for cites.

At the least you have asked for other peoples experiences and options
of the procedures you are considering.  I would suggest ignoring the
emotional content of her response, and look into the risks she points
out before agreeing to any further diagnostic procedures.

Hoping for the best,
Larry
The Watsons - 13 Apr 2005 23:38 GMT
> However, her research is usually very good, and I would suspect that
> the risks she points out are pretty real.  If you have doubts, then
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> emotional content of her response, and look into the risks she points
> out before agreeing to any further diagnostic procedures.

I'll think about it.

Maybe.

Jess
Sue - 13 Apr 2005 23:56 GMT
"The Watsons" <warpedsystems@mail.net> wrote in message
> What was remarkeable is that her doctor had us get a head xray for the "bump
> on her noggin" that we thought was normal; it seems that there's a suture
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> but I'd like to know what everyone else does about this so I can make
> something approaching an informed decision.

I'm sorry Jess. And I am sorry that you have to deal with people on this
newsgroup who have an agenda against the medical profession.

I don't know too much about what you have described, but I certainly would
consent to testing to make sure. I have typed up some reports with
infants/children with what you have described (I am a medical
transcriptionist), but it isn't enough to help you out.

With my daughter's liver transplant, she has had many x-rays, CT-scans and
ultrasounds, too many to count and it has not diminished her intelligence at
all. (((((hugs)))) It's probably nothing, but bypassing it by the doctor
would be seen as negligence on his part also.
Signature

Sue (mom to three girls)

The Watsons - 14 Apr 2005 00:35 GMT
> I'm sorry Jess. And I am sorry that you have to deal with people on this
> newsgroup who have an agenda against the medical profession.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> all. (((((hugs)))) It's probably nothing, but bypassing it by the doctor
> would be seen as negligence on his part also.

Thanks, Sue. :) *hugs*

Jess
V. - 14 Apr 2005 01:45 GMT
> So we just got back from Sproglette's WBV. She's right in the middle for
> height, but weight's a little behind. NBD.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> thanks,
> Jess

I think you mean "metopic"  :)  It's the suture over the forehead.
Here's a link with some info:
http://www.kidsplastsurg.com/craniosynostosis.html
here's also a link on risk of xray, etc (with some citations) from Memorial
Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center.
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q1601.html

Amy
The Watsons - 14 Apr 2005 06:38 GMT
> I think you mean "metopic"  :)  It's the suture over the forehead.

Yeah, I did, but I was in a stressed hurry and was going by the sound I
thought I rememered. :)

> Here's a link with some info:
> http://www.kidsplastsurg.com/craniosynostosis.html
> here's also a link on risk of xray, etc (with some citations) from
> Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center.
> http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q1601.html

Thanks. :)

Jess
Leslie - 14 Apr 2005 15:33 GMT
Just wanted to say that we have some acquaintances whose doctor was
worried about this for their child.  Long story short, they watched it
for awhile and it turned out no surgery was needed.  So it may well
turn out that Sproglette may not need the surgery.

Sending prayers your way . . .

Leslie
The Watsons - 14 Apr 2005 17:09 GMT
> Just wanted to say that we have some acquaintances whose doctor was
> worried about this for their child.  Long story short, they watched it
> for awhile and it turned out no surgery was needed.  So it may well
> turn out that Sproglette may not need the surgery.
>
> Sending prayers your way . . .

Thanks. :) It could very well turn out like this for sproglette, and that's
what we're hoping for. :)

Jess
Akuvikate - 15 Apr 2005 07:04 GMT
> So we just got back from Sproglette's WBV. She's right in the middle for
> height, but weight's a little behind. NBD.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I'm not enjoying the prospect of someone slicing into Sproglette's skull,
> but I'd like to know what everyone else does about this so I can make

> something approaching an informed decision.
>
> thanks,
> Jess

On the question of radiation's effect on the brain, it's well known
that doses of radiation required for treatment of brain tumors in
childhood have major effects on intelligence.  But there's a *huge*
difference on amounts of radiation used to kill a brain tumor vs. do
one (or even a few) CT scans.  I suspect the doses of radiation used in
the 40's to treat hemangiomas were closer to the brain tumor doses.
There's a debate in pediatrics about whether everyone who needs a
spinal tap should get a head CT first or not (the details of which
aren't important here).  There's no way that debate could be going on
without anyone on the "no" side pointing out that even one CT scan has
negative effects on future intelligence.

I know you want to think ahead, but remember there's a big difference
between being referred to a craniofacial specialist for evaluation and
definitely requiring surgery.  The majority of kids referred don't need
surgery, so the odds are in sproglette's favor.  Try not to stress too
much yet.

Kate, ignorant foot soldier of the medical cartel
and the Bug, 22 months
The Watsons - 15 Apr 2005 07:13 GMT
> I know you want to think ahead, but remember there's a big difference
> between being referred to a craniofacial specialist for evaluation and
> definitely requiring surgery.  The majority of kids referred don't need
> surgery, so the odds are in sproglette's favor.  Try not to stress too
> much yet.

Thanks. That's reassuring. :)

Jess
PCBH - 15 Apr 2005 18:05 GMT
> On the question of radiation's effect on the brain, it's well known
> that doses of radiation required for treatment of brain tumors in
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> without anyone on the "no" side pointing out that even one CT scan has
> negative effects on future intelligence.

I've been following this thread because my little one had a head xray
at about 14 mos.  He was running to the stairs---to go UP them---and
fell and hit his forehead on the edge of the wooden step.  it
immediately looked horrible!  I grabbed ice, called a neighbor to ride
with me and hold the ice on DS's head, and rushed him to the ped's
office. The ped sent him for an xray to be sure he hadn't cracked his
skull.  His head was fine (I can still feel a little ridge there and am
going to ask about it Monday at his WBV), but after reading some of
these posts I was worried about his having the xray.  I guess it was
warranted to determine if he had damaged his skull, but the
conversation here had made me a little nervous.

Feeling better now -

PC

mom to DS  10/2003
Dagny - 15 Apr 2005 21:25 GMT
Dr. Greene's site says a cat scan of the head is the exposure of 300 regular
head x-rays.  I have not researched dosage.
Dagny - 17 Apr 2005 04:46 GMT
http://preventdisease.com/news/articles/CT_scan_radiation_affects_kids_IQ.shtml

Gives dosage for ct scan which is in the range of the hemangioma treatment
of the study participants.
Akuvikate - 17 Apr 2005 06:33 GMT
Heh, interesting.  I'm still quite puzzled as to why I haven't heard
more about this.  Really, this question of whether or not to scan
everyone before doing a spinal tap is a very active debate and I'm
stumped as to why the folks who oppose doing so don't bring this up.
Or perhaps I've just been out of the loop since the study came out.

I also wonder if this estimate is for a CT scan that's had the
intensity dialed down appropriately from adult settings.  CT scanners
should be dialed down to lower settings for scans of kids.  Some places
that are less experienced with kids don't always do so.
Hillary Israeli - 25 Apr 2005 22:34 GMT
*Heh, interesting.  I'm still quite puzzled as to why I haven't heard
*more about this.  Really, this question of whether or not to scan
*everyone before doing a spinal tap is a very active debate and I'm
*stumped as to why the folks who oppose doing so don't bring this up.
*Or perhaps I've just been out of the loop since the study came out.

I can't bring myself to read any of this. My now 2.5 year old had a CT
scan of her head when she was about 5 weeks old (because a book fell on
her forehead, lacerating it, and they wanted to rule out any intracranial
bleeding, I guess).

She seems pretty darn bright to me, though.

Signature

             Hillary Israeli, VMD
             Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
                 too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

Dagny - 26 May 2005 17:28 GMT
My gorgeous, practically a baby model son is 4 mos and it was time, in my
timetable based on my reading, to get his weirdo skull looked at.

My primary care physician slash friend accompanied me to the neurosurgeon's
(MD, Ph.D)office this morning to get another opinion on his prominent
sutures and odd head shape (very prominent occiput).

Pleased to announce that he has been pronounced completely normal and
beautiful with an extremely prominent occiput that he will probably always
have and does not need to be followed.

He also thoroughly discussed how ct-scans are unnecessary when evaluating
for craniosynostosis, he certainly can evaluate for it without *unnecessary
radiation to the developing brain*.   He went on to say ... even if it was a
single suture craniosynostosis, which it isn't, that these children usually
are not at risk of problems, and surgery is in the vast majority of cases
cosmetic (he said something about 7-15% having any cranial pressure issues
and he finds the 15% number "highly suspect" ... I was not following this
too well) ... I think he went into all this just to make me feel better in
case I was doubting his evaluation of "no problems, healthy weird head", as
I did not bring it up, but I was amused that he was saying what I had said
on this group a month or so ago ... the only thing I brought up, neutrally,
was that a ped had suggested a ct-scan, then I just sat and let him talk and
looked concerned (which of course I always have been).  I didn't specify
that I was for or against it -- though he could presume, I suppose, that I
wasn't jumping at the bit to get a ct-scan, since I was not bringing
records.

Dagny


PattyMomVA - 27 May 2005 19:31 GMT
"Dagny" wrote and I snipped:
> Pleased to announce that he has been pronounced completely normal and
> beautiful with an extremely prominent occiput that he will probably always
> have and does not need to be followed.

Congrats on the good news.  I know you weren't "worrying", but I'm sure it's
good to hear there's nothing wrong.

TC,
-Patty, mom of 1+2
 
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