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Family Forum / Pregnancy / Breastfeeding / June 2005



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Plissken - 25 Jun 2005 07:12 GMT
Went to get DDs 4 month check up today (a little early actually, she will be
4 mo on the 4th) after examining her he told me well you can start solids
any time now. So I told him, no thank you I'm waiting until she is 6 months
old. Then he told me I had better get some iron supplements for her as there
is not enough in breastmilk and iron helps brain development. Thanks but I
think my breastmilk is fine until she is 6 months old.
Mum of Two - 25 Jun 2005 09:30 GMT
:-/
Tell him to update his textbooks, which obviously came out of the ark, and
look up the most recent information on the WHO website
http://www.who.int/en/ if he knows how to use the net. Did you point out how
poorly absorbed the 'artificial' iron in formula and supplements is as
opposed to breastmilk?
Sometimes it seems that paediatricians are the single biggest reason that
breastfeeding rates in the US are so low.

Signature

Amy
Mum to Carlos born sleeping 20/11/02,
& Ana born screaming 30/06/04
barton . souto @ clear . net . nz
http://www.freewebs.com/carlos2002/
http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/a/ana%5Fj%5F2004/

> Went to get DDs 4 month check up today (a little early actually, she will
> be 4 mo on the 4th) after examining her he told me well you can start
> solids any time now. So I told him, no thank you I'm waiting until she is
> 6 months old. Then he told me I had better get some iron supplements for
> her as there is not enough in breastmilk and iron helps brain development.
> Thanks but I think my breastmilk is fine until she is 6 months old.
Clisby - 25 Jun 2005 12:03 GMT
> :-/
> Tell him to update his textbooks, which obviously came out of the ark, and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Sometimes it seems that paediatricians are the single biggest reason that
> breastfeeding rates in the US are so low.

Surely I didn't have the only pediatrician who actually did a blood
check to *see* if my 6-month-old needed extra iron?  (He didn't.)

Clisby
MareCat - 25 Jun 2005 15:13 GMT
> Surely I didn't have the only pediatrician who actually did a blood
> check to *see* if my 6-month-old needed extra iron?  (He didn't.)

No, you're not the only one. When my DD was 9 months old, her pedi had
her tested for iron, as well. (She was also fine.) <sigh>

Mary
Cathy Weeks - 26 Jun 2005 18:51 GMT
> > Surely I didn't have the only pediatrician who actually did a blood
> > check to *see* if my 6-month-old needed extra iron?  (He didn't.)
>
> No, you're not the only one. When my DD was 9 months old, her pedi had
> her tested for iron, as well. (She was also fine.) <sigh>

My daughter's doctor recommended it at 18 months, but as I had just
been diagnosed with lyme disease, we decided to wait several months and
also do a lyme titer, a lead level, and an iron level all at the same
time.

My daughter is vegetarian and still breastfeeding, and at 21 months her
iron levels were fine.

Cathy Weeks
Caledonia - 27 Jun 2005 05:06 GMT
> > > Surely I didn't have the only pediatrician who actually did a blood
> > > check to *see* if my 6-month-old needed extra iron?  (He didn't.)
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Cathy Weeks

Out of not-so-idle curiousity, were you Dx'd with Lyme because you were
symptomatic, or were you just concerned regarding a tick you'd found?
(My apologies if neither scenario is true.). And to be even more
intrusive (and again, I apologize if this seems unduly forward), were
you thinking that Lyme might be transmitted via nursing? AFAIK, this is
a big unknown, and I worry about this scenario a lot. My daughters had
the western blot test a month ago, due to a positive (PCR) test on some
ticks found on them (and I couldn't honestly say if the ticks were
there for an hour or 20 hours -- bad, bad, bad mom. Talk to me about
finding a deer tick in thick dark brown hair, though. It's not as easy
as it seems.), and their tests were negative. My DH and I were not
tested (of course), but lately I've been wondering if I'm symptomatic.
Then again, the symptoms seem all over the board. We do live in a big
area for deer ticks, with a high incidence of Lyme, and as I'm still
nursing my DD (29 months), your post inspired me to post...

Likewise, how did the standard heavy duty dose of antibiotics affect
your nursing? Again, I'm not just being weird, but am about 2 days away
from calling my PCP, and just want another (personal) data point.

TIA!

Caledonia
Cathy Weeks - 27 Jun 2005 14:59 GMT
> > My daughter's doctor recommended it at 18 months, but as I had just
> > been diagnosed with lyme disease, we decided to wait several months and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Out of not-so-idle curiousity, were you Dx'd with Lyme because you were
> symptomatic, or were you just concerned regarding a tick you'd found?

I was symptomatic.  I had a huge red bullseye on the left side of my
left breast that was kinda sore, and I had flu-like symptoms.  That
night, I'd been feeling kind of tired, but hadn't noticed the bullseye.
So I went to bed and by morning, I noticed that my breast hurt, my
joints hurt, my throat was a little sore, and I was running a low-grade
fever.  When I looked at my breast, I had large red mark - uniformly
red, rather than a bullseye, and it was huge - if you make a circle out
of both your thumbs and index fingers, that's how big it was.  I felt
wretched, and I called my doctor as soon as they opened, and told them
I either had mastitis or Lyme disease and they made me an appointment
for that day (like 4:00 in the afternoon).

By the time I got there, it was starting to look more bullsyeish.  My
doctor took one look at it and told me that it looked like classic
Lyme. The soreness was on the surface, rather than deep inside the
breast.  I might add that I felt absolutely wretched.  My fever was
low-grade, maybe 101 or thereabouts.

We discussed Lyme transmission through the breastmilk, and she told me
that there had never been a documented case of it. Spiroketes *have*
been isolated in the breastmilk, but it's thought that they are unable
to survive the stomach acid. My doctor also pointed out that she'd be
getting antibiotics in the breastmilk as well, though only in very low
doses. I did my own independent research, and asked my own questions
(if you do a groups.google.com on author Cathy Weeks with Lyme as a key
word, you should be able to find the information).

Warning - there are people who INSIST that it's passed through the
breastmilk, and that they made their kids ill, and that children MUST
be weaned to protect them.  What seems wierd to me is that it seems as
if the kids could easily have picked it up via ticks just as the adults
did.  I never saw the tick that bit me. It attached, fed, gave me the
disease and dropped off without my ever being aware of it.  One of
those tiny ticks in my daughters hair? I might never have seen it,
either.

Anyway, the scare tactics worked to some extent, though I talked to
several people who nursed through their own Lyme and said their kids
were fine. I discussed it with my daughters doctor, and she suggested
doing the Lyme titer, but waiting several months to do it, as the blood
test wouldn't show Lyme early on, even if it *was* present.  Kivi's
blood test came back negative, and she's been fine ever since - and
this was 2 years ago (and she's still nursing at 3.5 years of age). One
point the doctor made was that Kivi wasn't a newborn, who might be at
greater risk.  She was 18 months old, with a mature digestive system.

I might also add that even though I was on zithromax for 21 days (I
couldn't take either of the two preferred drugs - I'm allergic to
penicillan, and the other - a "cycline" drug is contraindicated for
nursing) I still felt wretched for the entire first week I was on the
antibiotics.  I felt fine after that, and have had no long term
problems whatsoever.

> My DH and I were not
> tested (of course), but lately I've been wondering if I'm symptomatic.
> Then again, the symptoms seem all over the board. We do live in a big
> area for deer ticks, with a high incidence of Lyme, and as I'm still
> nursing my DD (29 months), your post inspired me to post...

Get yourself tested (though a negative test doesn't mean you don't have
it).  Honestly, given the seriousness of Lyme being allowed to go
long-term, I think having a possibly unnecessary course of antibiotics
is the lesser of two evils.  I was never tested. The presence of the
bullseye (and only about 50% of people even get the rash) and the
flu-symptoms was enough of a diagnosis.

> Likewise, how did the standard heavy duty dose of antibiotics affect
> your nursing?

It didn't. I just made sure my daughter and I ate lots of yogurt.

> Again, I'm not just being weird, but am about 2 days away
> from calling my PCP, and just want another (personal) data point.

IMHO if you suspect you have Lyme, you should be calling your PCP in 2
hours, not two days.  I mean, what's the worst that will happen? Either
(s)he'll put you on antibiotics, or tell you that you don't have Lyme,
and not to worry.

Cathy Weeks
Cathy Weeks - 27 Jun 2005 15:10 GMT
> Likewise, how did the standard heavy duty dose of antibiotics affect
> your nursing? Again, I'm not just being weird, but am about 2 days away
> from calling my PCP, and just want another (personal) data point.

I forgot to mention a couple of things:

1. My mother also had Lyme a year before I did - she had the bullseye
on her back and also never saw the tick. She went to the doctor and got
the antibiotics, but was never sick at all, other than the rash.  I on
the other hand, had the rash, and the flu-symptoms simultaneiously.
Just goes to show that any two people have different reactions to the
disease.

2. Once you've had Lyme, you can get it again - it's not a virus.

3. I too lived in a high-lyme area at the time - New Jersey. And I
lived out in the woods, and had deer in my yard all the time, etc. It's
more of a surprise that only one of us got it, rather than that I got
it at all.  My doctor told me she diagnosed 3 cases per week.  My
mother on the other hand lives in Missouri, which is also a moderate
Lyme area, but she was visiting family in Oklahoma when she was
diagnosed; and OK has very little Lyme. The doctor who dx'd her had
never seen a case of Lyme before, and had to look up how to treat her!

Cathy Weeks
Cathy Weeks - 27 Jun 2005 15:22 GMT
>> Likewise, how did the standard heavy duty dose of antibiotics affect
> your nursing? Again, I'm not just being weird, but am about 2 days away
> from calling my PCP, and just want another (personal) data point.

Sorry for the repeat posts. I'm re-reading my usenet posts from 2003 on
the subject - the original round of antibiotics was for 14 days, but I
asked them to extend it another 7 days, because I was starting to feel
sick again (though it could very well have been unrelated).

Cathy Weeks
Cathy Weeks - 27 Jun 2005 15:39 GMT
> Likewise, how did the standard heavy duty dose of antibiotics affect
> your nursing? Again, I'm not just being weird, but am about 2 days away
> from calling my PCP, and just want another (personal) data point.

I promise - this is the last post!!!

I just wanted to mention, that all of my research was from 2 years ago,
and I have no idea what's changed in the conventional wisdom in that
time.

Cathy Weeks
Caledonia - 28 Jun 2005 01:47 GMT
> > Likewise, how did the standard heavy duty dose of antibiotics affect
> > your nursing? Again, I'm not just being weird, but am about 2 days away
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Cathy Weeks

How can I begin to thank you? I'll email you!

Caledonia
Cathy Weeks - 28 Jun 2005 02:05 GMT
> How can I begin to thank you? I'll email you!

You might have figured out my real email address already, but if not,
you need to correct the spelling of my first name (I'm spelled with a
"C" not a "K" and remove the spam.  Feel free to email me with any
other questions you might have.

Cathy Weeks
Kathyspam@weeksfamily.net
Cathy Weeks - 28 Jun 2005 02:15 GMT
> > How can I begin to thank you? I'll email you!
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Cathy Weeks
> Kathyspam@weeksfamily.net

Grrr.... depending on your reader, you may or may not be able to even
see my email.  So, it's my first name (remember it's with a c) at
lastnamefamily dot net

Cathy
Circe - 25 Jun 2005 16:37 GMT
> Surely I didn't have the only pediatrician who actually did a blood check
> to *see* if my 6-month-old needed extra iron?  (He didn't.)

I think it's more standard to check at 9 months, actually. At 6 months, the
majority of breastfed infants should not yet be showing any signs of anemia
because their iron stores plus breastmilk last at least that long. By 9
months, you start to see more babies with mild anemia because their iron
stores have run out and if they are not eating sufficient iron-rich solids,
some of them can have low iron by then.

I'm just not sure you'd catch many problems by screening at 6 months; you
wouldn't *expect* to see low iron due to exclusive breastfeeding/lack of
iron-rich solids by then.
--
Be well, Barbara
Chookie - 25 Jun 2005 12:09 GMT
> Went to get DDs 4 month check up today (a little early actually, she will be
> 4 mo on the 4th) after examining her he told me well you can start solids
> any time now. So I told him, no thank you I'm waiting until she is 6 months
> old. Then he told me I had better get some iron supplements for her as there
> is not enough in breastmilk and iron helps brain development. Thanks but I
> think my breastmilk is fine until she is 6 months old.

Time to find a new doctor...

Alternatively, print off your country's current recommendations on the
introduction of solids and ask why he isn't using them.  The response might be
interesting.

Signature

Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

MareCat - 25 Jun 2005 15:20 GMT
>> Went to get DDs 4 month check up today (a little early actually, she
>> will be
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> might be
> interesting.

Before switching to a new doctor, I would probably send information from
the AAP and WHO to the pedi office, along with an explanation of why I
was going to another doctor.

Mary
Sue - 25 Jun 2005 13:08 GMT
"Plissken" <plissken@plissken.com> wrote in message
> is not enough in breastmilk and iron helps brain development. Thanks but I
> think my breastmilk is fine until she is 6 months old.

I would at least do a finger poke to see if the baby needed iron. Anemia
isn't something I fool around with (DD1 is very anemic and I see the
problems she has because of it). There can be so many problems associated
with anemia that a simple finger poke would make sure that it is either
needed or not. Just because an infant is breastfed doesn't mean that the
child may not *need* iron. It's just giving that information out without
checking is what bothers me.
Signature

Sue (mom to three girls)

Jess - 25 Jun 2005 16:19 GMT
> I would at least do a finger poke to see if the baby needed iron. Anemia
> isn't something I fool around with (DD1 is very anemic and I see the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> child may not *need* iron. It's just giving that information out without
> checking is what bothers me.

I'd just do what I did with our ped. :D

Jess
Sue - 25 Jun 2005 16:52 GMT
"Jess" <mail@domain.net> wrote in message
> I'd just do what I did with our ped. :D

What did you do?
Signature

Sue (mom to three girls)

Jess - 25 Jun 2005 16:58 GMT
> What did you do?

"We'll start solids when she's ready." :)

Jess
Plissken - 25 Jun 2005 18:15 GMT
> "Plissken" <plissken@plissken.com> wrote in message
>> is not enough in breastmilk and iron helps brain development. Thanks but
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> child may not *need* iron. It's just giving that information out without
> checking is what bothers me.

Well he didn't even bother doing that he just said it as if all babies
needed the extra iron at 4 months.
Mogget - 25 Jun 2005 18:57 GMT
>I would at least do a finger poke to see if the baby needed iron. Anemia
>isn't something I fool around with (DD1 is very anemic and I see the
>problems she has because of it).

Do you have any idea why she is anaemic?

And there I was, thinking that the iron thing is a bit of a red herring,
that babies don't really need iron.  Clearly I was mistaken.
Signature

Mogget

Sue - 26 Jun 2005 15:24 GMT
"Mogget" <bint@scat.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> Do you have any idea why she is anaemic?
>
> And there I was, thinking that the iron thing is a bit of a red herring,
> that babies don't really need iron.  Clearly I was mistaken.

She is anemic because of her medical problems. It would be rare for this
severity of anemia to happen to your average child. However, because she is
so anemic and the problems associated with anemia can be severe, I just
don't fool around with it when there is a simple test to make sure.
Signature

Sue (mom to three girls)

mcmahan@cup.hp.com - 25 Jun 2005 22:49 GMT
: Went to get DDs 4 month check up today (a little early actually, she will be
: 4 mo on the 4th) after examining her he told me well you can start solids
: any time now. So I told him, no thank you I'm waiting until she is 6 months
: old. Then he told me I had better get some iron supplements for her as there
: is not enough in breastmilk and iron helps brain development. Thanks but I
: think my breastmilk is fine until she is 6 months old.

No kidding!  And I'll try this into a mkp thing too.  That's one good
reason why you don't allow early cord clamping.

Larry
Akuvikate - 26 Jun 2005 01:34 GMT
> Went to get DDs 4 month check up today (a little early actually, she will be
> 4 mo on the 4th) after examining her he told me well you can start solids
> any time now. So I told him, no thank you I'm waiting until she is 6 months
> old. Then he told me I had better get some iron supplements for her as there
> is not enough in breastmilk and iron helps brain development. Thanks but I
> think my breastmilk is fine until she is 6 months old.

Actually your ped is following the current AAP guidelines:
"Currently the AAP recommends the use of iron-fortified infant formulas
from birth until the age of 12 months for infants who are not
breastfed; for those exclusively breastfed, iron supplementation is
recommended starting at about 4 months of age."
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/108/3/e56

The CDC differs, recommending starting supplementation at 6 months if
babies aren't getting enough dietary iron.

Screening recommendations are currently to screen at 9-12 months of age
and once between 1-5 years.  But they give a lot of leeway to adapt the
recommendations for different locations and populations, and even
publications from the AAP have said it's time to update those
recommendations to one screen at 15-18 months.  The blood check is the
only affordable universal screen, but isn't very effective because iron
stores in the body are already quite low by the time the child actually
becomes anemic.

As for when to start solids, my understanding is that the AAP Committee
on Breastfeeding is the main organization that's said to wait until 6
months.  The AAP Committee on Nutrition, WHO, and the CDC all say 4-6
months.  So docs who recommend starting solids at 4 months aren't
necessarily out of date.

Kate, ignorant foot soldier of the medical cartel
and the Bug, 2 years
Chookie - 26 Jun 2005 13:32 GMT
>> As for when to start solids, my understanding is that the AAP Committee
> on Breastfeeding is the main organization that's said to wait until 6
> months.  The AAP Committee on Nutrition, WHO, and the CDC all say 4-6
> months.  So docs who recommend starting solids at 4 months aren't
> necessarily out of date.

The WHO says 6 months -- see
http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2001/en/note2001-07.html

AAP Committee on Nutrition also says about 6 months
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/115/2/496#SEC6
and also mentions there that "The AAP Section on Breastfeeding, American
College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, American Academy of Family
Physicians, Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine, World Health Organization,
United Nations Children's Fund, and many other health organizations recommend
exclusive breastfeeding for the first 6 months of life."

The CDC also says:" Exclusive breastfeeding is ideal nutrition and sufficient
to support optimal growth and development for approximately the first 6 months
after birth." at http://www.cdc.gov/breastfeeding/faq.htm

So yes, the Dr is out of date -- and so are you! :-)

Signature

Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

 
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