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Family Forum / Pregnancy / Breastfeeding / July 2006Oy ... what did I say?
So ... I was wandering around the net the other day, and found myself over on the Babycenter.com parenting boards. A rather unusual place ... Lots of moms with lots of questions about fairly straightforward things (and surprsingly few helpful answers from other moms) so ... being the kind of person I am, (and those who were here when I was here a lot know what kind of person I am ....) I jumped in. Looking at the 'formula feeding' part of the site, a post caught my eye from a mom of a 2 week old who had been breastfeeding well until the first dreaded growth spurt, when she gave in and gave formula for several feedings, and now, the next day, isn't sure what she should do. Should she go ahead and wean? Combo feed? Keep trying to breastfeed? The responses she'd gotten were varied, with a couple of people encourging her to keep nursing, but most saying "Do what you think best" or "combi-feed". *I* said (bending over backwards to be polite and non-judgemental, I thought): "The fact that you posted this question on the formula feeding board suggests to me that you are looking for 'permission' to switch completely to the bottle. And, if in fact that's what you want to do, that is what you will do. However, I would encourage you to reconsider. You had a rough day with the growth spurt. Growth spurts ARE tough, no doubt about it. But they don't come very often. And they are only one of many challenges you will face as a mother (regardless of how you choose to feed). I promise you that you won't go insane from breastfeeding. You will not only retain your sanity, but you will be giving your son the best possible start in life. (And if there are other occassional times where you need, for whatever reason, to give the odd bottle of formula or expressed milk, that's fine.)" And got, in response, from another poster: "Why would you assume that the only reason this mother would post on this board is to get permission to switch to formula? She's obviously an intelligent woman who is thinking this through and certainly doesn't need the 'permission' of some anonymous people on a message board to make such a decision. It seemed like she was just bouncing around these thoughts in her head and I thought everyone gave her some really good and honest advice. Why do you come to this board, what's your motivation?" So I said: "What is my motivation? To offer what assistance I can to mothers with questions. I'm sorry if you were offended by my wording. I was trying to be non-judgemental. I'm sorry if I wasn't successful. It sounded to me (and perhaps I was wrong) that she was already pretty sure of her choice to wean and was hoping to get support for it. (Hence her post to a formula board rather than a breastfeeding support/problems board.) What I tried to do was to say that if she'd made her choice, that's fine, but to be sure she had fully considered the pros and cons. (She posted the day after the growth spurt incident, when she was likely still stressed and upset.)" And THEN got, from yet another poster: "Yes, some babies have trouble with different formula and may have to try a few different kinds to find the one that works. HOWEVER, bf is not for everyone and I can not believe that someone would post that formula is not healthy for a baby. I don't know which web site you got your source from but formula IS healthy for a baby! There are millions and millions of healthy babies that have been fed formula. How could it be sold if it weren't good for babies? Maybe ask your pediatrician- I'm sure they will tell you the same thing. To anyone who may be "feeling guilty" about not bf, ignore posts like that. Do what is best for you and your family. No matter what you decide, you are great mom!" Right ... so ... as near as I can tell "breastfeeding is giving your baby the best possible start in life" = "formula is not healthy for a baby." I damn near tied my hands behind my back to keep from giving her a detailed response, reminding myself over and over that this IS the formula feeding board, and not necessarily an appropriate place to sing the praises of breastfeeding .... Naomi snip > I damn near tied my hands behind my back to keep from giving her a > detailed response, reminding myself over and over that this IS the > formula feeding board, and not necessarily an appropriate place to sing > the praises of breastfeeding .... You're better person than me Naomi ... I'd have to post a few refs about the risks of ff as opposed to bf. I'd concede that ff is better than starving to death, but its not exactly as healthy as breast milk. Amanda > Right ... so ... as near as I can tell "breastfeeding is giving your > baby the best possible start in life" = "formula is not healthy for a > baby." Having had a look at the board, I think she's confusing you with Idragoo, the poster immediately before you, who did specifically state that formula is not good for babies. Confusions about which poster was which happen all the time in long threads, and, yes, it is bloody irritating when someone's in too much of a rush to check whom they're responding to, but I think you did the right thing by not making it into a huge fight. All the best, Sarah  Signaturehttp://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com But how do we _know_ that nobody ever said on their deathbed that they wished they’d spent more time at the office? > http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com Linkishness. Jess >> http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com > > Linkishness. Errrm, what? All the best, Sarah Signaturehttp://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell > Errrm, what? Sorry. Linked to your journal. Cool reading. Jess >> Errrm, what? > > Sorry. > > Linked to your journal. Cool reading. Thank you! All the best, Sarah Signaturehttp://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell >> Right ... so ... as near as I can tell "breastfeeding is giving your >> baby the best possible start in life" = "formula is not healthy for a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Idragoo, the poster immediately before you, who did specifically state > that formula is not good for babies. Having looked again, I don't even think it was confusion between posters - I think she didn't realise that clicking on the last "Reply" link in the thread would reply to you specifically in a subthread rather than just posting a comment to the thread generally. Easy enough mistake to make, I suppose. All the best, Sarah Signaturehttp://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell > "Yes, some babies have trouble with different formula and may have to > try a few different kinds to find the one that works. HOWEVER, bf is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > what is best for you and your family. No matter what you decide, you > are great mom!" ha, you know if formula was new on the market just now, it would not be approved for sale and definitely would not be allowed to be prescribed I also think you are right about wanting permission, even though the person may not realise it themselves. Anne > ha, you know if formula was new on the market just now, it would not be > approved for sale and definitely would not be allowed to be prescribed Why not? Seems to me there's a reasonable chance it would prove to be at least as good as the DIY formulas that people used to make before it was commercially available, and probably better. For some babies, that would be the choice. Formula may be horribly overused, but that doesn't mean there aren't cases where it _is_ the best and healthiest alternative. > I also think you are right about wanting permission, even though the person > may not realise it themselves. Possibly, but from reading her post she did sound as though she wanted to continue breastfeeding despite her reservations. Given how zonked out and mummy-brained she's going to be right now, I don't think I'd read too much into the fact that she happened to click on one forum to post to rather than another. ;-) All the best, Sarah Signaturehttp://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell >> ha, you know if formula was new on the market just now, it would not be >> approved for sale and definitely would not be allowed to be prescribed [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > be the choice. Formula may be horribly overused, but that doesn't mean > there aren't cases where it _is_ the best and healthiest alternative. the bacteria in the powdered stuff, I totally agree it's necessary for it to be available, but if it had to go through getting permission to be prescribed just now, it would probably end up with only the ready made stuff being available, I'm not saying we should be going that route, because it's far better for non breastfed babies to get decent formula than some other alternative. >> I also think you are right about wanting permission, even though the >> person may not realise it themselves. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > into the fact that she happened to click on one forum to post to rather > than another. ;-) I hadn't read the posts, it was more a general observation. Anne Naomi, Naomi, Naomi, :-) Reading your long sad tale, I can't help but comment on what I would do if I were in your shoes. :-) ... In the first place, given my own personal tendencies, I would likely have never found my on such a "mainstream" parenting site! "-) However, if I had and I actually stumbled onto the letter you described I would have probably responded to her also And if I had.... I would have avoided any comments about motivation, positive or negative. I would have focused on the "isn't sure what she should do" part of the post. Here, I would have given, the best advice I could muster on how to get through the growth spurt without formula and how to get back to full time breastfeeding. I would have stated it as simple assumed goal with no further comments about breastfeeding or formula feeding. Now, with that change, who know what kinds of posts I would have gotten in return. That would have been interesting. :-) However, assuming that people are similar enough, I would have probably finally gotten a post like the last one you describe. This one is a gem, because there I LOTS in it that is plain wrong, and scientifically disputable. If I got that post, I would go back through my research notes, surf the web some more, and actually provide some quantitative proof that "formula is not healthy for a baby." How fun!!! :-) Are you up to it? :-) Remember, have fun and do good, Larry : So ... I was wandering around the net the other day, and found myself : over on the Babycenter.com parenting boards. A rather unusual place : ... Lots of moms with lots of questions about fairly straightforward : things (and surprsingly few helpful answers from other moms) so ... : being the kind of person I am, (and those who were here when I was here : a lot know what kind of person I am ....) I jumped in. : Looking at the 'formula feeding' part of the site, a post caught my eye : from a mom of a 2 week old who had been breastfeeding well until the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : best" or "combi-feed". *I* said (bending over backwards to be polite : and non-judgemental, I thought): : "The fact that you posted this question on the formula feeding board : suggests to me that you are looking for 'permission' to switch : completely to the bottle. And, if in fact that's what you want to do, : that is what you will do. : However, I would encourage you to reconsider. You had a rough day with : the growth spurt. Growth spurts ARE tough, no doubt about it. But [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : you need, for whatever reason, to give the odd bottle of formula or : expressed milk, that's fine.)" : And got, in response, from another poster: : "Why would you assume that the only reason this mother would post on : this board is to get permission to switch to formula? : She's obviously an intelligent woman who is thinking this through and : certainly doesn't need the 'permission' of some anonymous people on a : message board to make such a decision. It seemed like she was just : bouncing around these thoughts in her head and I thought everyone gave : her some really good and honest advice. : Why do you come to this board, what's your motivation?" : So I said: : "What is my motivation? To offer what assistance I can to mothers with : questions. : I'm sorry if you were offended by my wording. I was trying to be : non-judgemental. I'm sorry if I wasn't successful. : It sounded to me (and perhaps I was wrong) that she was already : pretty sure of her choice to wean and was hoping to get support for it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : the pros and cons. (She posted the day after the growth spurt incident, : when she was likely still stressed and upset.)" : And THEN got, from yet another poster: : "Yes, some babies have trouble with different formula and may have to : try a few different kinds to find the one that works. HOWEVER, bf is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] : what is best for you and your family. No matter what you decide, you : are great mom!" : Right ... so ... as near as I can tell "breastfeeding is giving your : baby the best possible start in life" = "formula is not healthy for a : baby." : I damn near tied my hands behind my back to keep from giving her a : detailed response, reminding myself over and over that this IS the : formula feeding board, and not necessarily an appropriate place to sing : the praises of breastfeeding .... : Naomi > Naomi, Naomi, Naomi, > > :-) > > Reading your long sad tale, I can't help but comment on what > I would do if I were in your shoes. :-) ... Be in quite a lot of pain, I should think. I'd guess my feet are smaller than yours ... > In the first place, given my own personal tendencies, I would > likely have never found my on such a "mainstream" parenting site! "-) Nor would I. As I said, I followed a link on the MSN homepage .... (But 'mainstream' is right. Aside from the 'breastfeeding' boards, 99% of moms there formula feed; all seem to have started solids at 4 months 1 day (or earlier), plan to potty train at 18 months, and so on. Naomi > Nor would I. As I said, I followed a link on the MSN homepage .... (But > 'mainstream' is right. Aside from the 'breastfeeding' boards, 99% of > moms there formula feed; all seem to have started solids at 4 months 1 > day (or earlier), plan to potty train at 18 months, and so on. it would be interesting to see how that potty training goes, I have heard of this trying to train children early, but I've never seen anyone do it, mostly round here there is no effort made in potty training which means it ends up happening very late, it's fairly common for children to go to nursery aged 3 still in nappies. We were lucky with our DS at 26 months he announced he was going to use the potty, first day he didn't manage it, but was fine from then on, has been dry at night now for 4 or 5 months (he's 37 months). Anne Sigh ... I'm not sure which of you guys also wandered over there and put their two cents into the debate. It's all fine and all, but I really wish you HADN'T given the link back here. (It's VERY unusual for me to post to sites under a pseudonym, but I chose to do so there. Not that I'm ashamed of anything I said, but I prefer to keep my ID there separate.) Naomi > Sigh ... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > chose to do so there. Not that I'm ashamed of anything I said, but I > prefer to keep my ID there separate.) well it wasn't me, I didn't even look at the links you gave, not sure why you posted this in response to my query about early potty training, it was a genuine query Anne >> Sigh ... >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > well it wasn't me, I didn't even look at the links you gave No, it was me. I'm always interested in discussions like this one - in looking at the reasons why people feel this way, and whether there are any ways of putting things differently that are more acceptable. All the best, Sarah Signaturehttp://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell > > Sigh ... > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you posted this in response to my query about early potty training, it was a > genuine query Sorry. I simply used your post as an access point ... but deleted all the content. It wasn't directed at you. Naomi > Anne > > Naomi, Naomi, Naomi, > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Be in quite a lot of pain, I should think. I'd guess my feet are > smaller than yours ... Lol! At least you tried... > > In the first place, given my own personal tendencies, I would > > likely have never found my on such a "mainstream" parenting site! "-) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > moms there formula feed; all seem to have started solids at 4 months 1 > day (or earlier), plan to potty train at 18 months, and so on. I will say, dd started having interest in the potty around 15 months, tho she didn't have her first success until a few weeks ago at 27 months (completely child-led, btw.) I find it amusing that it's likely she'll be the first kid in my family to be potty-trained before she's weaned! Irene > However, assuming that people are similar enough, I would have probably > finally gotten a post like the last one you describe. This one is a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > web some more, and actually provide some quantitative proof that "formula > is not healthy for a baby." How fun!!! :-) Are you up to it? :-) Wouldn't have helped (though it might well have started a fight to no good purpose). This woman wasn't disagreeing with the fact that formula isn't as good for babies as breastmilk, she was disagreeing with the phraseology, as well as with the fact that it was being discussed on that board at all. Posting references wouldn't have dealt with either of those points. All the best, Sarah Signaturehttp://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell > Wouldn't have helped (though it might well have started a fight to no > good purpose). This woman wasn't disagreeing with the fact that formula > isn't as good for babies as breastmilk, she was disagreeing with the > phraseology, as well as with the fact that it was being discussed on > that board at all. Posting references wouldn't have dealt with either > of those points. Though there HAVE been a few 'there are no disadvanges to formula' posts. Which is fairly ironic when you look at all the posts on the formula board, most of which are of the 'my baby is so gassy/ I've tried 6 different formulas and none of them agree with my baby/my baby will only drink ready-to-feed but it's so expensive / which bottle will help my baby's gas' ilk. If those aren't 'disadvantages,' I'm not sure what are! Naomi > All the best, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell > Right ... so ... as near as I can tell "breastfeeding is giving your > baby the best possible start in life" = "formula is not healthy for a > baby." Well, health is relative. For the vast majority of babies, formula is extremely unhealthy compared to breastmilk. It is however preferable by far to straight cows' milk, or condensed milk diluted with water, or soy milk, or juice...etc. So while it isn't strictly correct to say 'formula is not healthy for a baby' it would be true to say 'with few exceptions, formula is not healthy for babies compared to breastmilk'. SignatureAmy Mum to Carlos born sleeping 20/11/02, & Ana born screaming 30/06/04 http://www.freewebs.com/carlos2002/ http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/a/ana%5Fj%5F2004/ My blog: http://spaces.msn.com/members/querer-hijo-querer-hija/ > > Right ... so ... as near as I can tell "breastfeeding is giving your > > baby the best possible start in life" = "formula is not healthy for a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > healthy for a baby' it would be true to say 'with few exceptions, formula is > not healthy for babies compared to breastmilk'. In my final response on the thread (asking my attacker what I'd said to get such a response), I was going to write something like that. Something like "breastmilk is by far the best food for a baby, but if breastmilk isn't available, formula is the best alternative. (And any pediatriian or website would agree.) " But after writing and rewriting it, I finally decided that I wasn't in the mood to get into it, and left it as I did." (I must be getting weak and feeble in my old age....) Naomi > -- > Amy [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/a/ana%5Fj%5F2004/ > My blog: http://spaces.msn.com/members/querer-hijo-querer-hija/ [snip] > She's obviously an intelligent woman who is thinking this through and > certainly doesn't need the 'permission' of some anonymous people on a > message board to make such a decision. It seemed like she was just > bouncing around these thoughts in her head and I thought everyone gave > her some really good and honest advice. Maybe if you had used the word "validation", instead of "permission". I totally get what you meant, though, it seems like she may have been looking for a tacit agreement that formula was the way to go. > I damn near tied my hands behind my back to keep from giving her a > detailed response, reminding myself over and over that this IS the > formula feeding board, and not necessarily an appropriate place to sing > the praises of breastfeeding .... I dunno about that. I've met LOTS of formula feeding moms, especially this time around, that have expressed guilt and regret over switching to formula, and plenty of them would still be breastfeeding if they had gotten the right advice and encouragement at the right time. One long distance friend was telling me about how she cried for weeks when "her milk dried up", just as the breastfeeding was starting to go well. Since this happened months before we were talking, I didn't bring up the possibility of a simple growth spurt - why make her feel even worse? But if we can catch them right at that "oh my god, what's happening, what am I doing wrong?" moment, how many breastfeeding relationships could we save? Or even better, to reiterate from before birth, breastfeeding often isn't easy, and it can be intensely frustrating. I know a big part of my early problems was the whole, "okay, animals can do this, why can't I figure it out?" Is it wrong to be enthusiastic, without being assaultive, to try to help? I only got through DS1's three-week growth spurt because of the help of posters here - if I hadn't found this group I don't know what would have happened. Thank you all, again, for being there as much as you can.... I'm gonna go write to my friend with the 2 month old and check up on her. I've been wondering whether I should be nosy about the breastfeeding, but, hell, it's important, right? SignatureCheri Stryker mom to DS1 - 7 yrs, and DS2 - 5 months Check out my new breastfeeding T-shirts on CafePress! http://www.cafepress.com/dancingbones > > I damn near tied my hands behind my back to keep from giving her a > > detailed response, reminding myself over and over that this IS the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Is it wrong to be enthusiastic, without being assaultive, to try to help? Yeah ... I know all that. And maybe I should have. I guess I just figured that, being new there, it wasn't the right time to get into a lenghty debate (which would, most definitely have been interpreted by the other readers as 'she's saying that we're all horrible mothers because we don't breastfeed.') So call me a coward .... Naomi > Yeah ... I know all that. And maybe I should have. I guess I just > figured that, being new there, it wasn't the right time to get into a > lenghty debate (which would, most definitely have been interpreted by > the other readers as 'she's saying that we're all horrible mothers > because we don't breastfeed.') So call me a coward .... Never! It's just something that I think about almost every day. I'm considering calling up the local "high school for borderline dropouts", and asking if they'd like an actual breastfeeding mother to come in and help with their teen parent program, but since I don't have any certifications or anything, I dunno if they'd want me. SignatureCheri Stryker mom to DS1 - 7 yrs, and DS2 - 5 months Check out my new breastfeeding T-shirts on CafePress! http://www.cafepress.com/dancingbones ! It's just something that I think about almost every day. > I'm considering calling up the local "high school for borderline > dropouts", and asking if they'd like an actual breastfeeding mother to > come in and help with their teen parent program, but since I don't have > any certifications or anything, I dunno if they'd want me. On a volunteer basis, I don't think it would matter. You can give them a call. :) Jess <npardue@indiana.edu> wrote and I snipped: > So ... I was wandering around the net the other day, and found myself > over on the Babycenter.com parenting boards. A rather unusual place [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > formula feeding board, and not necessarily an appropriate place to sing > the praises of breastfeeding .... My sympathies, Naomi. :-) Yes, we know how helpful you are.... -Patty, mom of 1+2 |
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