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Family Forum / Pregnancy / Breastfeeding / December 2006All night smorgasbord
Well, only one item on the buffet line. DD is 5 months now, still co-sleeping. We like it for the most part. I'd planned to transition her whenever she cut back to 1-2 nursings per night. She's reverse cycling so still eating a lot at night, but it had settled down. In the last few weeks, however, she's nursing ALL NIGHT LONG. I often just fall asleep, so I've lost track at how many times she's up. I know it's the co-sleeping, as as soon as I go to bed, no matter how long it's been since the last nursing, she wants to nurse. She also just sucks to suck - she'd never let go if I didn't force her. We've tried moving her to a crib at the foot of our bed. No go. I guess I'm not sure what I'm looking for...suggestions Other than letting her cry in a crib? Commisseration? Is this a phase? (She's been sorta teething for awhile now, so that's likely part of it) > she's nursing ALL NIGHT LONG. I often > just fall asleep Yup, that's a familiar problem with co-sleeping. Neither of my infants have slept deeply enough in bed with me to sleep there for more than 1-2 hours at a time. They wake up, and they're lying right next to me and they pat me and grunt, tell or cry until I wake up and give them the nipple. They take just a few sips and nod off, only to repeat 1-2 hours later. Argh. My general rule, day and night, is that the baby may sleep only in the baby's own bed. And the baby's bed is used only for sleeping. So if they are in my arms or in bed with me I require them to stay awake. Both babies learned very soon to enjoy being put in bed. Hungry Girl now usually smiles radiantly and closes her eyes and that's that. If she doesn't, I know she isn't ready to sleep and I pick her back up again and check her diaper or offer her more food or burp her or whatever. Where we get into trouble is during growth spurts where the baby nurses so long in bed at night that I fall asleep and wake up only when the next meal is due. Can you get DH to take the baby out of the bedroom until she is either (1) hungry or (2) ready to sleep? > My general rule, day and night, is that the baby may sleep only in the > baby's own bed. How does this work when you're away from home? > And the baby's bed is used only for sleeping. So if > they are in my arms or in bed with me I require them to stay awake. > Both babies learned very soon to enjoy being put in bed. What happened between implementing this rule and them learning to enjoy it? How long did that take? > Hungry Girl > now usually smiles radiantly and closes her eyes and that's that. How old is she? > If > she doesn't, I know she isn't ready to sleep and I pick her back up > again and check her diaper or offer her more food or burp her or > whatever. We never would have slept, ever, if we had followed this sort of advice. We would've all lost our minds and jumped into the river before my kid was 6 weeks old. Seriously. My daughter is 16 months old (where does the time go??) and she is just now starting to sleep through the night, and she isn't doing it reliably, yet. I've probably gotten 7 - 10 full nights (8 hours or more without waking) out of her in her life. I didn't sleep through the night until I was 18 months old. I think there is a strong hereditary component to sleep that has yet to be studied/researched/explained. Here's what works for my family - for the first, oh, 8 months maybe we co-slept. She did not sleep in her crib, and if I dared to put her in it once she was asleep, she would wake up screaming. She would take naps in her swing. Sometimes I put her to bed in her swing at night. At 8 or 10 months, whenever it was that she started to outgrow the swing, I started to transition to putting her down in her crib when she fell asleep. I would generally nurse her down in my bed, then wait until she was asleep and break her latch, then I would wait 5 - 10 minutes and move her into her crib. She would sleep there for 3 - 4 hours, generally, and then wake up. Since I'm lazy and don't want to wait until she's back asleep to go to bed myself, I would bring her into our bed for the rest of the night. This worked well for us because we were still co-sleeping, but we had time for DH and I to have private time, too. Plus, we could watch The Daily Show without waking her up laughing. Good solution, all around. Now that she's bigger and more mature, she's starting to sleep until 5:30 or 6 am in her bed (like I said, not every night, but some nights) and at that point I'll bring her into our room and try to catch a few more minutes of sleep. Sometimes I get 30 minutes, sometimes I get 2 hours. Just depends on the day. Oh, and when she was around one, we started having Daddy put her to bed instead of Mommy, which has been very, very nice. But I still take the middle-of-the-night shift. What you do at night totally depends on the temperament of your kids, and advice is just going to frustrate the hell out of you. Trust me. Some kids, like Pologirl's, are good sleepers. Some, like mine, are terrible sleepers. You can't take a baby with my baby's temperament and put her down to sleep in her bed and expect her to smile radiantly and fall asleep, even at 16 months. In fact, Daddy's upstairs rocking her right now. The thing I had to learn is that THIS IS NOT A REFLECTION ON HOW GOOD OF A PARENT I AM (or DH, or Pologirl, or anyone else). How well you meet your child's individual needs is the only measure of how good a parent you are. My child happens to be high-needs, especially at bed time. She was like this from birth - she did NOT want to sleep in the plastic doohickey at the hospital. It lasted about 15 minutes, and then I brought her into my hospital bed, even though the nurses wagged their fingers at me. She is a light sleeper, she gets cold easily, she kicks off blankets, and she doesn't like to be alone. That is not a recipe for a kid who will sleep in a bed alone. You have to experiment and try different combinations of co-sleeping and solo-sleeping until you find what works for YOUR child and YOUR family, because what works for me or anyone else is not going to work for you. And just about the time you get it all figured out and get into a good routine, the baby will hit a growth spurt or get molars or you'll get pregnant again or whatever, and you'll have to renegotiate the whole thing. I promise that you will not still be nursing your kids to bed when they're in high school. I promise that they, and you, will be sleeping through the night long before that. You might try rolling over so that your back is to the baby once she's fallen asleep. I found that she could smell the milk less, and therefore woke up less often, when I did that (when we were co-sleeping full time - now she's huge and she likes to sleep sideways and I'm lucky if I get 4 square inches of bed to roll around in. Hahhaa...) Good luck, Amy "Pologirl" wrote: > > My general rule, day and night, is that the baby may sleep only in the > > baby's own bed. > How does this work when you're away from home? Depends on who is the "you". Could you be more specific? > > And the baby's bed is used only for sleeping. So if > > they are in my arms or in bed with me I require them to stay awake. > > Both babies learned very soon to enjoy being put in bed. > > What happened between implementing this rule and them learning to enjoy > it? How long did that take? With #1 we were inconsistent and it took weeks. With #2, we were consistent from day 1 and it worked right fom the start. Yes, there are times when the baby isn't sleepy. Then we keep the baby up. Hold or lay in our lap or lay on a pad near us or sit in infant carrier, whatever. We don't CIO. We don't expect a little baby to be happy alone in a room. But once they are older, babies do often spend quiet time awake alone in their beds. Sleep researchers have proven that. > > Hungry Girl > > now usually smiles radiantly and closes her eyes and that's that. > > How old is she? 2.5 months. > We never would have slept, ever, if we had followed this sort of > advice. We would've all lost our minds and jumped into the river > before my kid was 6 weeks old. Seriously. You do whatever works. I personally cannot stand the baby crying. So I don't leave them to cry. > My daughter is 16 months old (where does the time go??) and she is just > now starting to sleep through the night, and she isn't doing it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > hereditary component to sleep that has yet to be > studied/researched/explained. Maybe, but there also are management issues. Those may be inherited too, but are cultural, not genetic. My #2 nursed every 2 hours through the night until I night-weaned him. Weaning and getting him to sleep through the night were related, and required a lot of analysis and adjustments after reading the Ferber book. I posted all about it, if anyone is interested. > She did not sleep in her crib, and if I dared to put her in > it once she was asleep, she would wake up screaming. [...] > I started to transition to putting her down in her crib when she > fell asleep. I would generally nurse her down in my bed, then wait > until she was asleep and break her latch, then I would wait 5 - 10 > minutes and move her into her crib. She would sleep there for 3 - 4 > hours, generally, and then wake up. I never had such success sneaking a sleeping infant into bed. They almost invariably shrieked upon waking. I think they know they are not where they were, and they don't like it. So I put them down awake. With #2, now 2.5 months, we're almost into a routine. Once in bed for the evening, sleep 5-6 hours. Wake every 2-3 hours thereafter. The routine is frequently disrupted by growth spurts. I cope by going to bed early and trying for 10+ hours bedtime. More, if there is more frequent nursing. > She is a light > sleeper, she gets cold easily, she kicks off blankets, and she doesn't > like to be alone. That is not a recipe for a kid who will sleep in a > bed alone. That was my #1 too, except he was such a light sleeper that he did not sleep well in bed with us. Nor us with him. It took us a long time to figure out how to make nighttime sleeping comfortable for him. My #2 has a much easier time of it; she is plumper and stays warm, she usually leaves her bankets on, and the Poopy Monster doesn't bother her as much. But she is a light sleeper and she absolutely hates it when I turn my back on her. She yells and flails! In the course of writing this post, I tried to put her to bed for the night 4 times. 3 times she wasn't ready, so I picked her up again almost immediately (intervals between 2 minutes and about 5 seconds). She nursed, nursed again, pooped a big load, emitted some evil burps, and finally on the 4th try she smiled and sighed blissfully as I put her in her crib. Anyway, what I do in no way dictates what others should do. I took the OP's query as a request for ideas, for brainstorming. > I never had such success sneaking a sleeping infant into bed. They > almost invariably shrieked upon waking. I think they know they are not > where they were, and they don't like it. So I put them down awake. I have to say, in an ideal world, it does seem to me as if the putting them down awake thing really is the route to long term better sleeping, problem is actually doing it, I planned to do with with my first, delatched him whilst he was still just awake, pop him down, but it rarely worked, it could end up being a 2-3hr cycle of put down, burble for a while, then a proper cry, back to feed, delatch and so on. He's always been on the bad side for sleeping, I nightweaned him just past age 1, when I was finally convinced he did not need to feed at night. In the end you just have to do what you have to do to survive, so that meant, with that baby, we coslept initially, gradually transitioned to basket by the bed and so on, if ever anything upsets the routine, it's back to cosleeping, he's 3.5 now, probably only ends up in our bed once a month, but gets up in the night about once a week. Roll on number 2, who popped out the womb without the ability to nurse to sleep, which was darn annoying at times, when you really did want her to sleep, but right from the start, she finished nursing awake, then lay down to sleep, the only quirk was that she wanted to be able to see me whilst doing that, so we ended up with a similar pattern of cosleeping and transition to the basket, we continued putting her down awake and at 9 weeks put her down awake, in her moses basket with her bear in a room of her own and she's slept through since then. When she did occasionally wake up in the night during the first year, because she was such a good sleeper, I was mostly sure she just needed a feed for whatever reasons, continued to put her down awake and the phases passed. I can't remember the last time she woke up in the night. Clearly two very different children, but I think the fundamental difference was the ability to go to bed whilst still awake, it just happened in this case that she was a rare creature and was born like that and had she been more middle of the road it wouldn't have been so easy, the ironic thing is, that after the first time of the baby refusing to do it, I wouldn't have bothered trying, now, if we do have more, I think I'll be trying to do it, but not to the extent of driving me nuts, you've got to survive as well! Cheers Anne > Clearly two very different children, but I think the > fundamental difference was the ability to go to bed whilst still awake, it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > be trying to do it, but not to the extent of driving me nuts, you've got to > survive as well! And then there's my youngest kid, who put himself to sleep at a very early age, but still had sleep problems. I used to joke that he was so good at going to sleep that he made a point of doing it many times every night. (Kind of like Twain's line about "Quitting smoking isn't hard; I've done it thousands of times.") --Helen > "Pologirl" wrote: > > > My general rule, day and night, is that the baby may sleep only in the > > > baby's own bed. > > How does this work when you're away from home? > Depends on who is the "you". Could you be more specific? If you are not at your house when the baby is tired (nap time, bed time, etc.) what do you do? Does she just blissfully pass out whenever and wherever she's horizontal? It seems to me that if a baby ONLY slept in her own bed, it would be pretty inconvenient for visiting relatives, running errands, etc. When mine was little, she'd sleep in the crib, the car seat, wherever. You said your kid ONLY sleeps in her own bed. I can't figure out how that would lend itself to any kind of a life, especially when they're little and they sleep several times a day. My kid will sleep anywhere, provided that I'm there. So we've taken her to France, to Texas, to Florida, to our hometown countless times, and all we need is a bed big enough for the 2 (or 3) of us, and we're all set. Easy peasy. > > > And the baby's bed is used only for sleeping. So if > > > they are in my arms or in bed with me I require them to stay awake. > > > Both babies learned very soon to enjoy being put in bed. > > > What happened between implementing this rule and them learning to enjoy > > it? How long did that take? > With #1 we were inconsistent and it took weeks. With #2, we were > consistent from day 1 and it worked right fom the start. Yes, there [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > alone in a room. But once they are older, babies do often spend quiet > time awake alone in their beds. Sleep researchers have proven that. I'd like to see a link to the study/ies, if you happen to have one handy. My kid will play alone in her room (she even shuts the door sometimes, which I think is funny, like she's in there calling boys and smoking pot or something...) but if she's awake she wants to be out of the crib... That's not where the toys are. PS and by the way, the "inconsistent" part of your reply is what I was talking about later - that having a kid with a different temperament who is a crummy sleeper somehow implies that I am a bad (inconsistent) mother (whether you meant it to or not). I'm not. I meet my kid's needs. She gets enough sleep. My husband and I get enough sleep. What we are doing works for us. What you are doing works for you. > > > Hungry Girl > > > now usually smiles radiantly and closes her eyes and that's that. > > > How old is she? > 2.5 months. Oh, hahahahaa! At 2.5 months we were still living in the La-Z-Boy chair because if I put my daughter down when she was asleep, she would wake up screaming and I would have to start all over again with the 30 minute process of settling her back to sleep. > > We never would have slept, ever, if we had followed this sort of > > advice. We would've all lost our minds and jumped into the river > > before my kid was 6 weeks old. Seriously.You do whatever works. > I personally cannot stand the baby crying. So > I don't leave them to cry. Good, I don't either. I'm not talking about CIO vs. anti-CIO - I am talking about differences in sleep needs. Mine needed (especially at the age that your daughter is, and at the age of the OP's child) to be held and near me, even when she was asleep. We had to work around that need and find a solution that worked for our whole family. Again IT IS NOT A MATTER OF ONE OF US BEING A BETTER PARENT - it is simply that different kids have different needs, and implying that if the mother whose kid won't sleep would just be more "consistent" all of her problems would disappear implies that you're a better mother, or that she's a bad mother, and that's not really very nice at all. > > My daughter is 16 months old (where does the time go??) and she is just > > now starting to sleep through the night, and she isn't doing it [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > required a lot of analysis and adjustments after reading the Ferber > book. I posted all about it, if anyone is interested. I think Ferber was a dick, personally. He even recanted all his "theories" recently. > > She did not sleep in her crib, and if I dared to put her in > > it once she was asleep, she would wake up screaming. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > minutes and move her into her crib. She would sleep there for 3 - 4 > > hours, generally, and then wake up. > I never had such success sneaking a sleeping infant into bed. They > almost invariably shrieked upon waking. I think they know they are not > where they were, and they don't like it. So I put them down awake. I'm talking about an 8 month old, here, not a 2.5 month old. I think we're comparing apples and oranges. > With #2, now 2.5 months, we're almost into a routine. Once in bed for > the evening, sleep 5-6 hours. Wake every 2-3 hours thereafter. The > routine is frequently disrupted by growth spurts. I cope by going to > bed early and trying for 10+ hours bedtime. More, if there is more > frequent nursing. > > She is a light > > sleeper, she gets cold easily, she kicks off blankets, and she doesn't > > like to be alone. That is not a recipe for a kid who will sleep in a > > bed alone. > That was my #1 too, except he was such a light sleeper that he did not > sleep well in bed with us. Nor us with him. It took us a long time to [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Anyway, what I do in no way dictates what others should do. I took the > OP's query as a request for ideas, for brainstorming. Ok, it just sounded to me like you were saying, "This will work for everyone," and "If you're more consistent, this will work," and that totally gets my hackles up. Again, I think the measure of a good parent is NOT how much a baby sleeps, or how easily, nor is it how well a baby eats, or how often he gets a bath, or how many toys he has... I think that the measure of goodness in parenting is "how well are you identifying and meeting your specific child's/family's needs." If you can honestly say, "as well as possible," then you're doing well. Amy > Oh, hahahahaa! At 2.5 months we were still living in the La-Z-Boy > chair because if I put my daughter down when she was asleep, she would > wake up screaming and I would have to start all over again with the 30 > minute process of settling her back to sleep. Sing it, sister. Most of the time my FOUR year old startles awake when I break contact with his body, just as he did in the NICU. He has never, ever, stayed asleep when I turned the *car engine off*, let alone been one of those babies who would fall asleep in a carseat and be able to be moved into the restaurant while you ate dinner. Dropped socks and changes in ceiling fan speed awaken him. When he was an infant, if I handed him to some other adult, he screamed unconsolably and after a few minutes they were racing to hand him back to me because he was so sad and panicked. He fetched toys back to my lap and played with them there for years. Sleepwalking and night terrors and headbanging run in both sides of our family -- I truly think it's just a higher baseline sensitivity to stimulus. Anyone got some imaginary monster repellent?  SignatureC > > Oh, hahahahaa! At 2.5 months we were still living in the La-Z-Boy > > chair because if I put my daughter down when she was asleep, she would [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > family -- I truly think it's just a higher baseline sensitivity to > stimulus. I'm telling you - I truly, truly believe that it is hereditary. I'm a crappy sleeper to this day. Even when she sleeps through the night, I don't. It takes me up to an hour to fall asleep on a normal night. I often wake up for no reason at all and lay there for 15 minutes or longer just looking at the ceiling - and I'm 30! I have always been a bad sleeper. I'm hoping that my next kid takes after my husband. He was reportedly a good sleeper from birth. I think that would be easier to work with, especially with two little ones in the house. What sucks is that mothers of kids like ours are made to feel like we're doing something wrong. I can't tell you how many people told me that if I would just do X, Y, or Z it would solve all of our problems... Meanwhile, doing X, Y, or Z made her insane, and made everyone miserable. It was only when I divorced "baby sleeps well" from my definition of "mothering correctly" that I was able to find the strength to do what was right for my child, and the resolve to tell people who told me to do X, Y, or Z to shut the f*&k up already. I replaced "baby sleeps well" with "baby's needs are met" in my definition, and everyone got a lot happier. Having a good sleeper doesn't mean you're a good mother, and having a bad sleeper doesn't mean you're a bad mother. It only took me like a year to figure that out. I guess I'm hoping to save the OP a little time. :) > Anyone got some imaginary monster repellent? How about a little colored water in a squirt bottle? Or Febreeze? Then the monsters would be gone AND it would smell good under the bed! Amy > I'm telling you - I truly, truly believe that it is hereditary. I'm a > crappy sleeper to this day. Even when she sleeps through the night, I > don't. It takes me up to an hour to fall asleep on a normal night. I > often wake up for no reason at all and lay there for 15 minutes or > longer just looking at the ceiling - and I'm 30! I have always been a > bad sleeper. Sigh. I'm in for trouble then.I so hoped my kid didn't get my sleep habits! Whenever people ask if DD sleeps thru the night,I say *I* have never 'slept thru the night' in my life! As a kid I had insomnia quite often. Now I sleep more just because I am so exhausted, but it's never more than a few hours in a stretch. :( >I'm hoping that my next kid takes after my husband. He > was reportedly a good sleeper from birth. I think that would be easier > to work with, especially with two little ones in the house. Ah, DH is no better than me. We're screwed. > What sucks is that mothers of kids like ours are made to feel like > we're doing something wrong. I guess I have a super thick skin. I'm not particularly bothered by that (I have other htings which do upset me tho). I can't tell you how many people told me > that if I would just do X, Y, or Z it would solve all of our > problems... Meanwhile, doing X, Y, or Z made her insane, and made [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > replaced "baby sleeps well" with "baby's needs are met" in my > definition, and everyone got a lot happier. I do hear a lot of 'advice' about how I should do X Y Z, but it goes in one ear and out the other, most of the time. > Having a good sleeper doesn't mean you're a good mother, and having a > bad sleeper doesn't mean you're a bad mother. It only took me like a > year to figure that out. I guess I'm hoping to save the OP a little > time. :) Thanks. I'm lucky tho. I figured that out about 15 yrs ago when everyone was telling me how to live my life pre-kids. I figure I'm a bad mom if I drop DD on her head, not if she doesn't sleep. Then I'm just a tired mom. cjorp@yahoo.com skrev: > Anyone got some imaginary monster repellent? When my 4-yo had bad dreams his big sister (9 yo) would bring her biggest teddy and tell him he could *borrow* it. It was a dream eater that only ate bad dreams. But she wanted him back because he had to eat her bad dreams as well. He believed every word. You may have a monster eater in the house without knowing it??? (The 9 yo is now 14 and takes him to movies she would never see by her own (happy feet) and lets him decide which DVD they should se - sometimes. I wish I had a nice big sister when I was a kid) Tine, Denmark >> "Pologirl" wrote: >>>> My general rule, day and night, is that the baby may sleep only in the >>>> baby's own bed. [...] >>> What happened between implementing this rule and them learning to enjoy >>> it? How long did that take? > >> With #1 we were inconsistent and it took weeks. With #2, we were >> consistent from day 1 and it worked right fom the start. [...] > PS and by the way, the "inconsistent" part of your reply is what I was > talking about later - that having a kid with a different temperament > who is a crummy sleeper somehow implies that I am a bad (inconsistent) > mother (whether you meant it to or not). ... > Again IT IS > NOT A MATTER OF ONE OF US BEING A BETTER PARENT - it is simply that > different kids have different needs, and implying that if the mother > whose kid won't sleep would just be more "consistent" all of her > problems would disappear implies that you're a better mother, or that > she's a bad mother, and that's not really very nice at all. ... > Ok, it just sounded to me like you were saying, "This will work for > everyone," and "If you're more consistent, this will work," and that > totally gets my hackles up. Whoa. All this from one use of the words 'consistent' and 'inconsistent'?? I can't speak for Pologirl. However, I can sure as hell say that I didn't read *any* of this into her reply. She told you - in answer to a direct question - how long it took for her to teach her two children to settle, and, since the answer was fairly different in each case, she added a brief comment on why she felt this was. You seem to be reading in this whole subtext of "And this will work for everyone else, and if a mother can't get it to work then she's a bad mother" which *just isn't there*. In fact, she specifically said in the last line of her post that what she did in no way dictated what other people should do. But you've disregarded this and jumped all over her for things that she *never said*. And *that's* not really very nice at all. > I think Ferber was a dick, personally. Well, you're entitled to your opinion. ;-) But, with an opinion like that, maybe you could back it up? Ferber helped hundreds of families who were going loopy with sleep deprivation and who just weren't, at the time, being offered *anything* else apart from the old advice just to leave the baby alone crying for hours on end. His methods were a big improvement on that, and, even today, they're a useful option for lots of families. > He even recanted all his > "theories" recently. Depends what you mean by his theories. He's recanted his anti-co-sleeping stance, and I read something about him having changed the information he gives on the average amount of sleep that children need, or something. I don't think he's recanted anything apart from that. All the best, Sarah Signaturehttp://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell > "Pologirl" wrote: > > > My general rule, day and night, is that the baby may sleep only in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Depends on who is the "you". Could you be more specific? How/where does your DD sleep when she is not at home in her crib? > With #1 we were inconsistent and it took weeks. With #2, we were > consistent from day 1 and it worked right fom the start. Yes, there > are times when the baby isn't sleepy. Then we keep the baby up. Hold > or lay in our lap or lay on a pad near us or sit in infant carrier, > whatever. That's what I've been doing lately. If she refuses to sleep after awhile, I give in and bring her out and just wait til the sleep train comes back. We don't CIO. We don't expect a little baby to be happy > alone in a room. But once they are older, babies do often spend quiet > time awake alone in their beds. Sleep researchers have proven that. Hmmm, DD does that when she wakes in the morning. But not at night. > > > Hungry Girl > > > now usually smiles radiantly and closes her eyes and that's that. > > > > How old is she? > > 2.5 months. Oh my. I'm having a hard time imagining any kid, let alone a 2.5 month old smiling radiantly and closing their eyes. That said, at that age DD was a *much* better sleeper than she is now. At 5 months, she's got all these new interests to distract her. At 2.5 months it was much easier to nurse her and she was out. > You do whatever works. I personally cannot stand the baby crying. So > I don't leave them to cry. I don't either normally, esp not when she was younger. Now, I sometimes leave her to fuss for a few minutes when I have to attend to something else. If she's awakened and crying, however, she won't calm down. > > My daughter is 16 months old (where does the time go??) and she is just > > now starting to sleep through the night, and she isn't doing it [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Maybe, but there also are management issues. Those may be inherited > too, but are cultural, not genetic. As in you can train an infant? I'll tell you not I'm not big on the whole sleep training idea. I think infants are as easy to train as cats. ie, they tell YOU what they want their schedule/system to be. > My #2 nursed every 2 hours through the night until I night-weaned him. > Weaning and getting him to sleep through the night were related, and > required a lot of analysis and adjustments after reading the Ferber > book. I posted all about it, if anyone is interested. Ok, Ferber scares the bejeebes out of me. (Aside to Amy: since cjra asked for feedback, I have reason to believe wants it. This is her thread. You are taking personally comments that are no reflection on you.) > How/where does your DD sleep when she is not at home in her crib? That's where it isn't possible to be utterly consistent. But my babies seem to be reasonably tolerant of some inconsistency in our routine. We have traveled with both kids, for days, weeks, or months at a time. Depending on the temperature at night, the baby sometimes sleeps in the bed with DH and me (or just me). Those nights, I sleep very badly. But if it is not too cold, the baby sleeps on the floor in our room, on a little bed made of folded blankets with rolled towels tucked inside for side walls. The sleeping surface of the bed is a familiar blanket, a flannel quilt with applique, that is the baby's regular car blanket. I am such a light sleeper that I don't worry at all about the baby crawling off anywhere. I feel if the sleeping location is too unfamiliar, the baby/child should be in the same room with its parents, and should never be left alone. Eg, in a motel room; it's very stressful for them if the parents go out of sight, even just into the motel bathroom. But if we get wherever we're going early enough in the day, we introduce them to where they will sleep early in the day. Get familiar with it. Make a big deal about the special sleeping place just for them. Pologirl wrote: > > But once they are older, babies do often spend quiet > > time awake alone in their beds. Sleep researchers have proven that. > Hmmm, DD does that when she wakes in the morning. But not at night. Are you sure that you wake for all of her nighttime wakings? (Research literature on this is reviewed in Ferber's book, at least in the old edition.) > Ok, Ferber scares the bejeebes out of me. Have you read his book? Or are you going by other people's descriptions? I heard a lot of bizarre stuff about it (pro and con), so I checked it out at the library. And I was very, very surprised by how really good it was. It was jam packed with ideas that made me *think* about what was going on in my own situation, that I might be able to adjust. (Has anyone here read the new, much revised 2006 edition?) > (Aside to Amy: since cjra asked for feedback, I have reason to believe > wants it. This is her thread. You are taking personally comments that > are no reflection on you.) This is Usenet. Threads don't "belong" to anyone. If you didn't want to see what anyone had to say about your reply, you should've e-mailed cjra directly rather than posting. That's how Usenet works. Look, all I'm saying is that people whose kids sleep like your kid don't post threads about the problems that their kids are having sleeping. It's like someone whose kid has cancer posting and saying, "Hey, I'm having a really hard time getting my kid to keep food down..." and you posting back, "Well, my perfectly healthy kid just LOVES pizza! You should try it! I even read a book that said that almost all parents should feed their kid pizza!!!" and then implying that if the parent with the kid with cancer were just a /more consistent/ cook, the pizza would stay down. Or something. Sleeping problems are frustrating enough without parents of children who "smile blissfully and close their eyes" coming in and making us parents of bad sleepers feel WORSE. You can't know how frustrating it is unless you've had a kid that slept like mine, or cjra's. You just can't. And I'm not going to apologize for jumping all over it, because your comments were unhelpful at best, and destructive to an already fragile, sleep deprived new mother at worst. Cjra needed to know that your experience is the exception, not the rule, and that the fact that her kid doesn't sleep the way yours does is not an indication of the quality of her parenting. But get defensive all you want. You've got plenty of energy for it, seeing as how everyone in your house is getting a good night's sleep... Amy Hmm. I believe 'get a grip' might be the order of the day here... > This is Usenet. Threads don't "belong" to anyone. If you didn't want > to see what anyone had to say about your reply, you should've e-mailed > cjra directly rather than posting. That's how Usenet works. I appreciate pologirl's feedback. I'm glad she didn't email cjra privately. > Look, all I'm saying is that people whose kids sleep like your kid > don't post threads about the problems that their kids are having > sleeping. It's like someone whose kid has cancer posting and saying, <snip silly analogy> I believe what pologirl provided was her own *personal story* about how she dealt (differently) with two different children and their sleep. She said specifically "Anyway, what I do in no way dictates what others should do." She did not tell cjra the equivalent of 'feed your cancerous child pizza." Give me a break. > Sleeping problems are frustrating enough without parents of children > who "smile blissfully and close their eyes" coming in and making us > parents of bad sleepers feel WORSE. > > You can't know how frustrating it is unless you've had a kid that slept > like mine, or cjra's. Okie dokie, here. I have a horrible sleeper; he's been that way from birth. Maybe by some fluke you've got a worse one than Micah, and if you do I'm more than sorry, but I'd be pretty surprised. ;) He's 2 and still wakes up multiple times at night (not nursing anymore, thank GOD, but frequently throwing prolonged and very loud temper tantrums. At 2 AM.). Over the course of the last two years, we've tried every single sleep strategy I could find. In fact, I posted about it on misc.kids a few days ago, and asked for ideas on what other parents did. Pologirl responded with tons of suggestions, and although I'm not taking all of them, I very much appreciate her taking the time to do so. I didn't take her suggestions as evidence of my terrible parenting, either -- and she had some pretty pointed comments about *me* needing to be consistent (in contrast to this thread's very generic "With #1 we were inconsistent and it took weeks" remark, reflecting on no-one but herself). I believe her comments to *me* were warranted, and luckily, I'm a big enough girl to handle these suggestions without spiraling into self-pitying 'oh-I-must-be-a-sucky-mama'. And I'm willing to give both you and cjra enough credit to believe you can handle a much less directed comment without suffering unto damage of fragile psyches. > But get defensive all you want. You've got plenty of energy for it, > seeing as how everyone in your house is getting a good night's sleep... You must be getting some pretty good sleep yourself... :P Apparently, I'm not getting enough rest; maybe if Micah started sleeping through the night, I'd start taking friendly accounts of personal experiences, offered by helpful people on usenet, as veiled condemnations of my character. We can only hope... Em mama to Micah, 11/14/04 > Hmm. I believe 'get a grip' might be the order of the day here... > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > offered by helpful people on usenet, as veiled condemnations of my > character. We can only hope... Butting in here, tho I didn't take Pologirl's comments as an attack on my parenting, I do actually see where Amy's coming from. I've got a thick enough skin to handle usenet, but on another parenting board I'm on, there are tons of new moms (almost all new moms) who will make a post like mine, and *are* made to feel like Amy described: "If your kid doesn't sleep, it's because you've done XYZ and are a bad mom" and in a sleep-deprived overwhelmed mode it pushes them to the edge. I'm not there ;-). I hope my post didn't sound that desperate. I'm just tired, not at my wit's end. I have been asked often about her sleep habits, and if I'm honest, get annoying comments about how I *must* try Ferber/Ezzo, how I created a monster by spoiling her (holding her too much), how if I just did what *they* did, my life would be better. So I have learned to not be honest ;-). I don't complain about DD's sleep habits IRL (except with those I know will be sympathetic) and I come here to ask advice, knowing I'll get the range. Ignoring people is easier on usenet than IRL. I do appreciate Amy's attempts to prevent me from feeling bad, and I appreciate Pologirl's suggestions, even if I'm not likely to follow them. > Butting in here, tho I didn't take Pologirl's comments as an attack on > my parenting, I do actually see where Amy's coming from. I see where she's coming from as well, but that doesn't mean that it's OK to go in the direction she's going in. > I've got a > thick enough skin to handle usenet, but on another parenting board I'm > on, there are tons of new moms (almost all new moms) who will make a > post like mine, and *are* made to feel like Amy described: "If your kid > doesn't sleep, it's because you've done XYZ and are a bad mom" and in a > sleep-deprived overwhelmed mode it pushes them to the edge. I know. But the point is that Pologirl wasn't one of those people. Yet Amy treated her as if she was. [...] > I do appreciate Amy's attempts to prevent me from feeling bad Well, if Amy had said something like "Don't worry, cjra, lots of babies don't sleep that well so don't get the wrong idea" then that would have been a nice thought. But the problem is that she turned it into an attack on Pologirl. She jumped down Pologirl's throat for something Pologirl hadn't even said, and then, when Pologirl tried to clarify (in an impressively restrained manner, I thought) that what she'd said hadn't been meant personally against Amy, Amy jumped even further down her throat. *This* is what's not OK. For crying out loud - if we can't even answer a query by posting an account of what worked for us in case it makes someone else feel bad because that wouldn't have worked for them, then there's not going to be much point left to this group! All the best, Sarah Signaturehttp://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell > Well, only one item on the buffet line. DD is 5 months now, still > co-sleeping. We like it for the most part. I'd planned to transition [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > (She's been sorta teething for awhile now, so that's likely part of it) I don't have any advice, other than to say hang in there. Alexander nurses all night long any time he's teething or not feeling well or having a growth spurt. The rest of the time he just nurses without fully waking up a couple of times a night, and I don't even wake up for that. I hope you find something workable for your family. SignatureRebecca Jo Mama to Alexander 6/6/05 EDD 6/27/2007 > > Well, only one item on the buffet line. DD is 5 months now, still > > co-sleeping. We like it for the most part. I'd planned to transition [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I hope you find something workable for your family. Wouldn't you know it, I finally post this and she ends up sleeping most of the night! She only wanted to nurse once last night, tho she still made a lot of noise.... > Wouldn't you know it, I finally post this and she ends up sleeping most > of the night! She only wanted to nurse once last night, tho she still > made a lot of noise.... Phew, that's great! Maybe it was just a growth spurt? do her clothes suddenly seem tight or short? --Helen > > Wouldn't you know it, I finally post this and she ends up sleeping most > > of the night! She only wanted to nurse once last night, tho she still > > made a lot of noise.... > > Phew, that's great! Maybe it was just a growth spurt? do her clothes > suddenly seem tight or short? Well, I've just been transitioning to all larger sizes in the last 2 weeks anyway, as she was steadily growing out of stuff. So most of the stuff is already on the big side. Now if I could just get her to sleep past 5am.... Of course, now I've written this addendum, she'll be up all night tonight nursing ;-) > Well, only one item on the buffet line. DD is 5 months now, still > co-sleeping. We like it for the most part. I'd planned to transition [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > (She's been sorta teething for awhile now, so that's likely part of it) Um, I've been there, and it's no party. Much empathy! For me, when I was feeling moderately human I'd think, "gee, isn't it great that we get to do this, given that DD is away from me all day." Most days, though, it'd just be tiring and aggravating, although I did become the power sleeper, able to sleep through most parts of the night nursings. I couldn't deal with the idea of getting up and putting her in a crib, having had the weird sleep deprivation dreams (did I put her in her crib? Am I sitting in a chair? Where am I? Did she just fall?). Because we were apart weekdays I was hesitant to put limits at this age on nursing (versus fast-forwarding 1 year), given that I didn't want to mess up my own milk production, and the whole 'how do I *know* if it's a growth spurt?' question was unanswerable. I can't remember how this all ended, but it ended, and ended relatively well. Caledonia > > Well, only one item on the buffet line. DD is 5 months now, still > > co-sleeping. We like it for the most part. I'd planned to transition [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > mess up my own milk production, and the whole 'how do I *know* if it's > a growth spurt?' question was unanswerable. Yeah, that's exactly it. I do *like* the co-sleeping, and I don't see her all day, so it's a nice bonding time. But more importantly, as long as she was nursing more than a couple of times per night, it is the *only* way I'd get sleep. Even if she's in a crib in our room, getting up and down more than once would be a PITA. That said, she doesn't like her crib.... Her bassinet became the cat's sleeping place. It's a cycle that's hard to break. I'm not willing to let her cry so she'll get used to her crib. Not now at least, maybe in a year I'll think about it. > I can't remember how this all ended, but it ended, and ended relatively > well. Good to know! > Well, only one item on the buffet line. DD is 5 months now, still > co-sleeping. We like it for the most part. I'd planned to transition [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > (She's been sorta teething for awhile now, so that's likely part of it) I have no freaking idea. I don't think I was meant to have kids that sleep. I co-slept with the first two and they nursed all night long until I weaned them well past a year old. I have these guys in their crib and have since the beginning. They do sleep better then the first two but they still nurse quite a bit at night. They are in the crib, they are put down awake, nap in the crib - put down awake, blah blah blah. Still - up up up. I figured they would sleep through on their own but I think that must be a myth. They are certainly up more during growth spurts, teething, colds, etc. > > Well, only one item on the buffet line. DD is 5 months now, still > > co-sleeping. We like it for the most part. I'd planned to transition [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > blah blah blah. Still - up up up. I figured they would sleep through on > their own but I think that must be a myth. So are you up all night? One of the reasons I don't want to put DD in the crib is because I'd get even less sleep getting up to get her. All that said, for the past two nights I've tried offering her the boob less, just rubbing her head or holding her hand and that seems to work. When she's really hungry she makes that known. So she only nursed 2x after initially going to sleep (about 11pm and 5am) which is great, but she still wakes a lot. Of course, now I've said this she'll be wanting to nurse all night tonight! > All that said, for the past two nights I've tried offering her the boob > less, just rubbing her head or holding her hand and that seems to work. > When she's really hungry she makes that known. So she only nursed 2x > after initially going to sleep (about 11pm and 5am) which is great, but > she still wakes a lot. Of course, now I've said this she'll be wanting > to nurse all night tonight! sounds like you are doing exactly the right thing, you're meeting her needs and only some of the time is that a need to nurse, most newborn babies do just need to nurse when they wake in the night, but they change and we mums often are so tired, we don't notice that and carry on offering boob and often they take it and have a suck and then we get into that cycle of hourly mini feeds, probably giving less nourishment through the night than if they had 2-3 good feeds and this doesn't seem to be something that anyone picks up on when babies are slow to gain weight. Cheers Anne > sounds like you are doing exactly the right thing, you're meeting her needs > and only some of the time is that a need to nurse, most newborn babies do [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > had 2-3 good feeds and this doesn't seem to be something that anyone picks > up on when babies are slow to gain weight. This is so spot-on, it deserves to be quoted in full. "cjra" <cjrohr31@hotmail.com> wrote in message > So are you up all night? One of the reasons I don't want to put DD in > the crib is because I'd get even less sleep getting up to get her. First I totally agree with Anne. You are doing the right thing. To answer your question. They are nursing less then my others did at this age but my others nursed at least every 2hrs and often more. In the beginning I got more sleep by co-sleeping but sometimes between 6-12mos stop being able to sleep through the nursing sessions. They actually irritate me a little. So I get less sleep then. > All that said, for the past two nights I've tried offering her the boob > less, just rubbing her head or holding her hand and that seems to work. > When she's really hungry she makes that known. So she only nursed 2x > after initially going to sleep (about 11pm and 5am) which is great, but > she still wakes a lot. Of course, now I've said this she'll be wanting > to nurse all night tonight! > "cjra" <cjrohr31@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > 6-12mos stop being able to sleep through the nursing sessions. They > actually irritate me a little. So I get less sleep then. Ah, ok. I still sleep thru the nursings - sometimes when I don't want to sleep. I suddenly wake up and it's 2 hrs later... We had another night where she only woke up at 11pm then 5am (and i'm about to go to bed now so she'll probably wake up). But these days it's harder to get her to sleep, she doesn't end up going out til about 9pm.... Well, thanks for the advice and commiseration. I think I'm a big chicken about moving her to her crib (actually a pack n play w/bassinet at the foot of our bad). It just looks so cold and lonely over there ;-) > Well, only one item on the buffet line. DD is 5 months now, still > co-sleeping. We like it for the most part. I'd planned to transition [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > long it's been since the last nursing, she wants to nurse. She also > just sucks to suck - she'd never let go if I didn't force her. One thing that has helped us get longer periods of sleep with co-sleeping is switching to a firm futon on the floor without springs. This means that one person rolling over in sleep doesn't bounce the baby. Another thing that makes a difference with us is using quiet covers. Many of the modern comforters make a crinkley sound if you move them a bit. My first baby would never sleep in the crib - she did once for 20 minutes. My next 2 would have, but by then we had given up on the crib and turned its rails into a baby gate. --Betsy It's now been ~ 3 nights where instead of offering her the breast when she squirms, I just let her squirm until she settles down. So she's only nursed 2x (11pm and ~ 5am) during the night, and she's started waking less. My only concern is that because she's also eating less during the day, she's notgetting enough. She does eat a lot in the evening, but she's not cluster feeding like she used to. I guess it's less necessary as she gets older? She has enough wet diapers, is pooping about 1x/day on avg, so I guess she's getting enough. That was my fear before about 'withholding the breast' at night, tht she really needed it. But I guess she'll make that known if she's hungry. My problem is that she won't go to sleep at night! Lately she's been up til 9-10pm. She's super tired earlier, but still refuses to sleep. Once she's out she sleeps ok, it's getting her there that's hard, esp as that gives me little time to do all the prep work I need to do for the next day. I'm going to wait to move her to the crib (actually a pack n play with a bassinet) for a bit still. > One thing that has helped us get longer periods of sleep with > co-sleeping is switching to a firm futon on the floor without springs. > This means that one person rolling over in sleep doesn't bounce the > baby. Another thing that makes a difference with us is using quiet > covers. Many of the modern comforters make a crinkley sound if you > move them a bit. Hmm. We don't have box springs, we have a bed fromSwitzerland that's got a wood frame but with lots of slats across. It's in 2 pieces, and you can lift up one end of it. The mattress is quite firm but much smaller than a typical American one - it's not as 'tall' but is really compacted inside. It all sits on a futon frame (the floor is not insulated, and we're in a pier and beam house with no skirting at the moment. The floor is COLD!). Anyway, it doesn't make a lot of noise and it doesn't really bounce at all.Not sure about the comforters, they're feather duvets (also from Switzerland), they don't seem to make a lot of noise... Thanks all for the suggestions and commiseration. I appreciate all the feedback. > My problem is that she won't go to sleep at night! Lately she's been up > til 9-10pm. She's super tired earlier, but still refuses to sleep. Once > she's out she sleeps ok, it's getting her there that's hard, esp as > that gives me little time to do all the prep work I need to do for the > next day. Really counterintuitive, but sometimes what this means is that the right time to start putting her to bed is EVEN EARLIER, before she gets overtired. This is about the age when many babies start fairly early bedtimes. I'm not saying this *necessarily* is the case, only that it is so for some babies, and you might not have even thought of that possibility. --Helen > > My problem is that she won't go to sleep at night! Lately she's been up > > til 9-10pm. She's super tired earlier, but still refuses to sleep. Once [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > overtired. This is about the age when many babies start fairly early > bedtimes. Well, I generally try to put her to bed around 7pm ish, as that's when she's gone to be for awhile now. She's usually not quite rubbing her eyes yet at the point, but I figure at least she's in the right place. But she nurses, starts to doze a bit, thenwakes up all bright eyed. grrr. After a little while she'll get super tired and start rubbing her eyes and smacking her head. It's like the smacking works and wakes her up :( Since we get home at 5pm, eat a bunch for her, then eat for us, that seems to be the best time. I may try even earlier I guess. I am *hoping* I have an outside source to blame. We live in an old neighborhood with narrow streets and the houses fairly close to the street. Ours is on a normally quiet corner, but they're doing some work on the one bigger street and the bus has been re-routed past our house. It makes *a lot* of noise. And the temp stop is also right by our house, so it's even worse when it goes from stopped to start up. I am sure that wakes her. This will hopefully be over soon. > > > My problem is that she won't go to sleep at night! Lately she's been up > > > til 9-10pm. She's super tired earlier, but still refuses to sleep. Once [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > her eyes and smacking her head. It's like the smacking works and wakes > her up :( Ergh. You know, reading this thread is bringing back a lot of memories of times of quiet desperation for me. Couple of questions: (1) How long, in total, is she sleeping during a 24 hour period? I found that DD1 at 6mo or thereabouts would nap at daycare for 1 hour in the a.m., 2 hours in the p.m., and ever-so-slightly snooze in the car on the way home (aaaaaagh!), then remain awake until 9:30-10:00 pm, then we'd officially 'wake' at 6. When I counted it out, sadly, it amounted to a completely normal (even slightly higher than average) amount of sleep for her age, and my desire to push her to sleep earlier would have played havoc on my 'official' wake time. (2) I'm not sure if it's dark earlier there, but I also found for me that (even now) there's a part of me that feels that the night starts a lot earlier, and hence, I desire on some level to move everything up. (Understand I'm not saying you're irrational, as I so clearly am, but it might be a small factor.) (3) Is she napping a bit during the evening commute? If so, I have absolutely no ideas but a ton of sympathy, empathy, and all that other stuff. The other thing I discovered is that DD1 was taking EBM at daycare, but all in all, a lot of her breastmilk consumption was actually happening at home. (i.e., after heating a small amount, anything remaining was tossed, so if she took 2 oz out of 5 oz, daycare had been marking 5 oz, if that makes sense.) (4) The only upside that I can think of (my DD1 was born in the summer, and the first winter was Not Very Fun From What I Remember) is that by nursing more -- and offering to nurse more -- you're providing her with additional antibodies in response to what your body 'reads' she's been exposed to at daycare. And given the recent ScienceNews article on Vitamin D and colds/flu season (apparently, a big driver for the cold and flu season isn't just proximity, but actually a depletion of vitamin D, given as it's daylight seemingly all of 20 minutes these days), it can only help. (5) I realize this really does fall into the 'it will be over soon' but for me, memories of the first winter are coming back (gee, thanks cjra!), yet only yesterday I saw DD1 in a crowd and was taken aback by how much she looked like an older girl (she's 7), and how quickly all of this had happened. If it helps, we co-slept until she was 2.5yo, went back to some level of snuggling after #2, and for the past 3-4 years she's been the entirely self-sufficient get-ready-for-bed-and-sleep kid. Geez, I wish you well, and hope that the above is vaguely helpful and not at all offensive. Caledonia > > Well, I generally try to put her to bed around 7pm ish, as that's when > > she's gone to be for awhile now. She's usually not quite rubbing her [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Ergh. You know, reading this thread is bringing back a lot of memories > of times of quiet desperation for me. Sorry about that. I'm not quite to the desperation stage, just exhausted, and if DH was in town, it'd be a little better. > Couple of questions: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > amount of sleep for her age, and my desire to push her to sleep earlier > would have played havoc on my 'official' wake time. Let's see....she naps anywhere from 1-3 hrs during the day at daycare (not on the weekends, she doesn't nap so well for me). Sleep is about 9pm-5am, she nurses a bit, then falls asleep again at 6 til I wake her up about 7:10-7:30 (depending on how late I am!). So that's about 12 ish hours/day. > (2) I'm not sure if it's dark earlier there, but I also found for me > that (even now) there's a part of me that feels that the night starts a > lot earlier, and hence, I desire on some level to move everything up. > (Understand I'm not saying you're irrational, as I so clearly am, but > it might be a small factor.) I'm in So. Texas, it doesn't get dark til 6pm, but you're right. It's darker earlier and it feels like the evening is *so* short. You're right on target about that, I feel like i have to move everything up. It doesn't help that DH goes to bed at 9:30pm. So by the time I'm done feeding her/putting her to sleep, he's ready for bed. I can stay up an extra hour or two, but I do that more because I need 'me' time than anything else. > (3) Is she napping a bit during the evening commute? If so, I have > absolutely no ideas but a ton of sympathy, empathy, and all that other > stuff. Evening commute is less than 15 mins, fortunately, so no. She doesn't sleep then. She used to *hate* the car and scream all the time. Now she's better, and now I've discovered Baby Einstein CDs. (I have loads of classical music so resisted buying them but finally caved. The combos they put together really work) Now she's so peaceful and calm on the way home I worry something's wrong ;-) The other thing I discovered is that DD1 was taking EBM at > daycare, but all in all, a lot of her breastmilk consumption was > actually happening at home. (i.e., after heating a small amount, > anything remaining was tossed, so if she took 2 oz out of 5 oz, daycare > had been marking 5 oz, if that makes sense.) Her babysitter leaves the bottles as they are, so I can see how much she took by how much is left. She'll reheat once if DD has only taken an oz or two. Today, she took about 7-8 ozs by bottle and while I went at lunch to nurse her, she only nursed for about 5-10 mins max. > (4) The only upside that I can think of (my DD1 was born in the summer, > and the first winter was Not Very Fun From What I Remember) is that by [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > vitamin D, given as it's daylight seemingly all of 20 minutes these > days), it can only help. Thanks for that. That makes it all worthwhile! Seriously. I've had a cold a month for the past 3 months. It's annoying as hell. DD has had two of those colds, and she's fighting off this one I have now. Every time it's been a lot less severe for her than for me. I figure i'm giving her all my antibodies and not having any left over for myself ;-). I haven't seen the Vit D research, I'll have to look into that. We have plenty of sunlight here, but she spends most of the day indoors. The babysitter doesn't often take them out - it's either too hot or too cold! > (5) I realize this really does fall into the 'it will be over soon' but > for me, memories of the first winter are coming back (gee, thanksy, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > years she's been the entirely self-sufficient > get-ready-for-bed-and-sleep kid. I'll take that. Really, it helps to know 'this too shall pass.' It's one it seems never ending that it seems I'm teetering on the edge. For the most part I'm ok. I'm just tired, and DH is away this week which doesn't help. > Geez, I wish you well, and hope that the above is vaguely helpful and > not at all offensive. Very helpful, not offensive at all :) > (1) How long, in total, is she sleeping during a 24 hour period? I > found that DD1 at 6mo or thereabouts would nap at daycare for 1 hour in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > amount of sleep for her age, and my desire to push her to sleep earlier > would have played havoc on my 'official' wake time. Moot point now, but I have to ask out of sheer curiosity - where were you getting your normal/average figures from for comparison? Everything I can ever remember reading about the sleep of babies that age says that they normally have a short nap in the morning, a long nap just after lunch, and still around 12 hours at night. Just checked with my copies of Ferber & Ford, & both of them give around 14 1/2 hrs for the total amount of sleep in 24 hours for a baby that age. Obviously, if your baby was fine on that amount, then she must have been the exception. But I wondered what source said that 11 1/2 hrs out of 24 was normal for a 6-month-old, because that just doesn't match anything else I've read. All the best, Sarah Signaturehttp://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com But how do we _know_ that nobody ever said on their deathbed that they wished they’d spent more time at the office? > My only concern is that because she's also eating less during the day, > she's notgetting enough. She does eat a lot in the evening, but she's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 'withholding the breast' at night, tht she really needed it. But I > guess she'll make that known if she's hungry. hmm, she's having 2 feeds during the night, I'm presuming then a minimum of one before bed and one when she wakes up, plus whatever she gets at daycare, I'm guessing there is going to be another couple of breastfeeds in there to, so you're looking at 6 feeds, which is plenty at her age, honestly some babies are on 4 feeds a day and thriving at this age, they can take so much more in than when they were tiny newborns, that 8-12 feeds is not the ball park figure anymore. Anne > It's now been ~ 3 nights where instead of offering her the breast when > she squirms, I just let her squirm until she settles down. So she's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > not cluster feeding like she used to. I guess it's less necessary as > she gets older? That sounds good! Fewer feeds is okay, provided the baby is still growing and otherwise seems well. Has she just finished a growth spurt? I am having trouble resisting the urge to nurse at the least sound. I'm awake, I hear her, and I get a strong letdown. I hate to waste that milk! Not to mention, on the nights she skips a feed or two my engorgement really hurts. So even if *she* sleeps, I don't necessarily sleep well too. Last night she nursed almost constantly for 2 hours, then slept 7.5 hours and then another 4 after nursing briefly. Your bed and bedding style is similar to ours (but probably better quality; ours is USA-made). And our floors are cold too. I would not put the baby in a low to the floor pack&play in our house, in winter. But I think you mean you have the kind of baby bed insert that goes at the top of the pack&play? That might be okay. Your bed has a very stable temperature; once you do move the baby elsewhere you'll have to think about to duplicate that feature. With Monkey Boy, we think poor temperature control was a big part of his poor sleeping problems (now resolved). And some of the things we did to compensate had their own problems. For example, we started out with a polyester fleece crib blanket, but in dry winter air it caused massive static sparking. Ow! His fleece sleepers were sparky too. Do you know a source of infant sized goosedown duvets?! > > It's now been ~ 3 nights where instead of offering her the breast when > > she squirms, I just let her squirm until she settles down. So she's [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > growing and otherwise seems well. Has she just finished a growth > spurt? I haven't noticed one. She seems to be growing all the time. > I am having trouble resisting the urge to nurse at the least sound. > I'm awake, I hear her, and I get a strong letdown. I hate to waste > that milk! Not to mention, on the nights she skips a feed or two my > engorgement really hurts. So even if *she* sleeps, I don't necessarily > sleep well too. Last night she nursed almost constantly for 2 hours, > then slept 7.5 hours and then another 4 after nursing briefly. Eh, I lose about 30-40 mls every time I nurse! I leak substantially from the non-nursing breast and always soak a cloth diaper.... But yeah, even if she sleeps thru the night, my boobs wake me up. That was getting better, til the reverse cycling began. DD does that constant 2 hr nurse thing most nights these days, but it's only been a couple of weeks. > Your bed and bedding style is similar to ours (but probably better > quality; ours is USA-made). And our floors are cold too. I would not > put the baby in a low to the floor pack&play in our house, in winter. > But I think you mean you have the kind of baby bed insert that goes at > the top of the pack&play? That might be okay. Yeah, there's a bassinet component that hangs on top. We stuffed the bottom with pillows and covered the mesh sides with blankets so it won't be so cold. We don't even put her on the floor to play right now. It doesn't get *that* cold (just below or about freezing at the worst), but our house is old and drafty, so when it's cold outside, it's COLD inside. Your bed has a very > stable temperature; once you do move the baby elsewhere you'll have to > think about to duplicate that feature. With Monkey Boy, we think poor [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > His fleece sleepers were sparky too. > Do you know a source of infant sized goosedown duvets?! heh, that would be nice! Since DD sleeps right next to me she uses my duvet. I feel ok about that - and have had her with my blanket (or sheet) since early days. She's warm enough at night in our bed, won't be the same in the PnP. > I guess I'm not sure what I'm looking for...suggestions Other than > letting her cry in a crib? Commisseration? Is this a phase? Possible suggestions for consideration if and when you want to change anything in the future: With Jamie, a lot of his nursing was a need to suck rather than nurse specifically. When he was about a year old, I started giving him a dummy (pacifier) when I was sure that he'd finished taking milk at his night nursing and was down to comfort sucking. For him, this worked really well - he fussed for a few seconds the first few nights, accepted the dummy without a murmur the next few nights, and after that he started coming off the boob when he'd finished nursing with an impatient look of "All right, where's that dummy, then?" When he was sixteen months old I night-weaned him and, again, he took quite easily to a dummy rather than a boob. I transitioned him to his cot for evening sleep and naps when he was one (right after getting him to take the dummy for comfort sucking, so that he wasn't attached to my boob for an hour at a time getting off to sleep) using a method I read about in Tracy Hogg's latest book ("The Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems"). Basically, works like this: when Jamie was nursed down, sleepy, and all ready to drop off to sleep, I put him in his cot. When he screamed and got up, I gave him a hug and put him straight down again, and I do mean straight down - I was lowering him to the mattress even as my arms went round him to hug him. Every time he pulled himself up, I did the same thing again - put my arms round him and put him straight down again. When he got more tired and was lying there for longer periods of time between trying to pull himself up, I rubbed his back and made shushing sounds. I kept going with this until I was sure he'd been asleep for about ten minutes. This method can be used for any baby over three months (according to the book) though there are slight variations according to age. I found it a gentler method than controlled crying, because I was right there with him all the time, and I was showing him what he was supposed to do (lie down in the cot). It only took a few nights to get him to the stage where he was falling asleep without a peep, with just a few minutes of back rubbing. (Within a few weeks he started putting up more and more of a fuss about going to sleep, and in the end I did move to leaving him alone in his cot and checking in to comfort him every few minutes. I was more comfortable with that than I would have been with going straight to that method from having co-slept, and it worked quickly and easily. BTW, I only used this for evening and nap sleep, because those were the only times when his inability to fall asleep without nursing and co-sleeping was a problem. During the night, I just took him into bed and nursed him when he woke up, until I night-weaned, after which I just took him into bed. Anyway, all of that is what worked for us (at the ages I gave. When Jamie was your daughter's age, what worked was just letting him sleep in the sling or on a cushion on the arm of his dad's chair in the evening, and co-sleeping during the night.) HTH. All the best, Sarah Signaturehttp://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell |
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