 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Family Forum / Parenting / Parenting / July 2004Man arrested for saving child
Interesting how the "justice" system failed to listen to the man in this case, yet were all eyes and ears when he decided to take it upon himself to save his child from the child's dangerous and felonous mother. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/GoodMorningAmerica/amber_alert_father_040713-1.html Excerpts: Defense lawyer Mark Shapera said Cleveland had primary custody of Sabrina and that the child's mother violated a custodial agreement by taking her out of state. Cleveland had filed a motion of contempt against Montgomery and contacted Pennsylvania police but received no help from officials, Shapera maintained. "The Pennsylvania police should have done more to check out the background [of Cleveland]," Shapera told ABC News affiliate WTNH in New Haven, Conn. Cleveland insists he was saving Sabrina from a dangerous situation and did not regret taking his daughter. He told WTNH that Montgomery is "a violent person." A Cleveland family friend added, "I think he should get his daughter back, and she [Montgomery] should get in trouble, too. She left the state with her." But Pennsylvania police say they responded appropriately to the Amber Alert and that Cleveland should not have taken matters into his own hands. Another fathers screws himself.......probably took advice from someone like Booby. > Interesting how the "justice" system failed to listen to the man in > this case, yet were all eyes and ears when he decided to take it upon > himself to save his child from the child's dangerous and felonous > mother. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/GoodMorningAmerica/amber_alert_father_040713-1.html > Excerpts: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Alert and that Cleveland should not have taken matters into his own > hands. > Another fathers screws himself.......probably took advice from someone like > Booby. "Cleveland insists he was saving Sabrina from a dangerous situation and did not regret taking his daughter." How did he screw himself? It sounds like the government again acted inappropriately as usual involving themselves in area for which they do not belong. However we are only getting one side of the story here so perhaps reserve full judgement on this issue and only speculate. > > Interesting how the "justice" system failed to listen to the man in > > this case, yet were all eyes and ears when he decided to take it upon > > himself to save his child from the child's dangerous and felonous > > mother. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/GoodMorningAmerica/amber_alert_father_040713-1.html > > Excerpts: > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Alert and that Cleveland should not have taken matters into his own > > hands. > > Another fathers screws himself.......probably took advice from someone > like [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > How did he screw himself? If you read the article, it said he took her at gun point. Even if he didn't, the proper method would have been with the courts, been there, done that.. >It sounds like the government again acted > inappropriately as usual involving themselves in area for which they do not > belong. However we are only getting one side of the story here so perhaps > reserve full judgement on this issue and only speculate. If he went to another state, made nay sort of threats to retrieve the child, he's screwed himself. > > > Interesting how the "justice" system failed to listen to the man in > > > this case, yet were all eyes and ears when he decided to take it upon > > > himself to save his child from the child's dangerous and felonous > > > mother. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/GoodMorningAmerica/amber_alert_father_040713-1.html > > > Excerpts: > > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > > Alert and that Cleveland should not have taken matters into his own > > > hands. > > > Another fathers screws himself.......probably took advice from someone > like [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > didn't, the proper method would have been with the courts, been there, done > that.. And if you had read the article, you would have seen this ... "Cleveland had filed a motion of contempt against Montgomery and contacted Pennsylvania police but received no help from officials, Shapera maintained." Now, I'm not saying he did the 100% correct thing by wielding a gun to get his child - from the information we have - but as a previous poster said, we probably don't know all the facts in the case. > >It sounds like the government again acted > > inappropriately as usual involving themselves in area for which they do [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If he went to another state, made nay sort of threats to retrieve the child, > he's screwed himself. I agree, but again, we don't know all the details. What I find perplexing is that no where in the article did it mention that the mother was arrested for taking the child in the first place. > > > > Interesting how the "justice" system failed to listen to the man in > > > > this case, yet were all eyes and ears when he decided to take it upon [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > > > Alert and that Cleveland should not have taken matters into his own > > > > hands. > "P.Fritz" <paulNOfritzSPAM@voyager.net> wrote in message news:<10f8kp7ohmmf1bd@corp.supernews.com>... > > "Don" <don@free> wrote in message news:10f8g8ulhh59jc6@corp.supernews.com... > > > > > > "P.Fritz" <paulNOfritzSPAM@voyager.net> wrote in message > > > news:10f8fb6gei8v25@corp.supernews.com... > > > > Another fathers screws himself.......probably took advice from someone > > like > > > > Booby. > > > > > > > > > > "Cleveland insists he was saving Sabrina from a dangerous situation and > > did > > > not regret taking his daughter." > > > > > > How did he screw himself? > > > > If you read the article, it said he took her at gun point. Even if he > > didn't, the proper method would have been with the courts, been there, done > > that.. > > > > And if you had read the article, you would have seen this ... > > "Cleveland had filed a motion of contempt against Montgomery and > contacted Pennsylvania police but received no help from officials, > Shapera maintained." It sounds like he jumped the un..(no pun intended) instead of letting the 'system' work > > Now, I'm not saying he did the 100% correct thing by wielding a gun to > get his child - from the information we have - but as a previous > poster said, we probably don't know all the facts in the case. Weilding a gin is the 100% wrong thing to do. > > > > >It sounds like the government again acted > > > inappropriately as usual involving themselves in area for which they do > > not > > > belong. However we are only getting one side of the story here so perhaps > > > reserve full judgement on this issue and only speculate. > > > > If he went to another state, made nay sort of threats to retrieve the child, > > he's screwed himself. > > > > I agree, but again, we don't know all the details. > > What I find perplexing is that no where in the article did it mention > that the mother was arrested for taking the child in the first place. Because if there was no warrant issued, there was no reason.....just more reason to follow the proper methodolgy to get the desired results > > > > > > > > > > > > "Steve" <mhnsp@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > > news:ddd9ca63.0407131135.28e23305@posting.google.com... > > > > > Interesting how the "justice" system failed to listen to the man in > > > > > this case, yet were all eyes and ears when he decided to take it upon > > > > > himself to save his child from the child's dangerous and felonous > > > > > mother. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/GoodMorningAmerica/amber_alert_father_040713-1.html > > > > > > > > > > Excerpts: > > > > > > > > > > Defense lawyer Mark Shapera said Cleveland had primary custody of > > > > > Sabrina and that the child's mother violated a custodial agreement by > > > > > taking her out of state. Cleveland had filed a motion of contempt > > > > > against Montgomery and contacted Pennsylvania police but received no > > > > > help from officials, Shapera maintained. > > > > > > > > > > "The Pennsylvania police should have done more to check out the > > > > > background [of Cleveland]," Shapera told ABC News affiliate WTNH in > > > > > New Haven, Conn. > > > > > > > > > > Cleveland insists he was saving Sabrina from a dangerous situation and > > > > > did not regret taking his daughter. He told WTNH that Montgomery is "a > > > > > violent person." A Cleveland family friend added, "I think he should > > > > > get his daughter back, and she [Montgomery] should get in trouble, > > > > > too. She left the state with her." > > > > > > > > > > But Pennsylvania police say they responded appropriately to the Amber > > > > > Alert and that Cleveland should not have taken matters into his own > > > > > hands. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "P.Fritz" <paulNOfritzSPAM@voyager.net> wrote in message > news:<10f8kp7ohmmf1bd@corp.supernews.com>... [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Weilding a gin is the 100% wrong thing to do. Drinking gin may be wrong, it tastes like turpentine, but a MAN taking up arms to defend his family is 100% right. It's a shame he didn't use it. Unless you're a feminized wuss, of course, but we're talking MEN here. Bob  SignatureWhen did we divide into sides? "As president, I will put American government and our legal system back on the side of women." John Kerry, misandrist Democratic candidate for President. http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/ [Bob does not advocate any illegal, seditious, or immoral acts. All posts are for discussion, rhetorical, or humorous purposes only.] Once again Booby proves he is the NG moron. Right Booby, encourage fathers to end up in prison for life....now that take s real brilliance........you really need to get some professional help. > > > "P.Fritz" <paulNOfritzSPAM@voyager.net> wrote in message > > news:<10f8kp7ohmmf1bd@corp.supernews.com>... [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Bob > > "P.Fritz" <paulNOfritzSPAM@voyager.net> wrote in message > news:<10f8kp7ohmmf1bd@corp.supernews.com>... [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > It sounds like he jumped the un..(no pun intended) instead of letting the > 'system' work Again, I agree that using a gun to take back what was rightfully his in this case *may* not have been the smartest thing to do, but contrary to what you told me in your private email, the system FAILED the MAN. For a second, reverse the roles of the parents, and tell me with a straight face that things would have been the same in this case. I would say that had the circumstances been reversed, all the woman would've need do was go into the local police department, cry a little, and tell the police that her baby was abducted by a viscious man with a gun (whether or not he even used one). I'm sure within seconds, every law enforcement person locally - as well as state and maybe even federal - would have been out to nail the guy. And, as both I and you have said repeatedly, we don't know all the facts. > > > > Now, I'm not saying he did the 100% correct thing by wielding a gun to [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > "P.Fritz" <paulNOfritzSPAM@voyager.net> wrote in message > > news:<10f8kp7ohmmf1bd@corp.supernews.com>... [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > contrary to what you told me in your private email, the system FAILED > the MAN. Sorry for the email, that was intended as a NG post. So I will post it here. Filing a Motion for Contempt is the snail's pace method...they lawyer is at fault for that.......It requires the other party to be served...if she it out of state, it costs time an money. Second, a Contempt of Court Bench warrant has a good chance of not being enforced across state lines. What should have happend is for Mr Cleveland to file charges under this (assuming he is a Conn. resident) "Custodial interference in the first degree: Class D felony. (a) A person is guilty of custodial interference in the first degree when he commits custodial interference in the second degree as provided in section 53a-98: (1) Under circumstances which expose the child or person taken or enticed from lawful custody or the child held after a request by the lawful custodian for his return to a risk that his safety will be endangered or his health materially impaired; or (2) by taking, enticing or detaining the child or person out of this state." Conn. Gen. Stat. §53a-97 (2001). With a felony warrant, the Pa. law enforcement would have been compelled to arrest the mother and return her to Conn. But what Mr Cleveland did was to break several state (and possible federal laws)......obviously much to the delite of people like Booby......and stands a good chance of not only losing custody, but spending time in jail" The system did not fail the man, the man failed to use the system to his advantage. > For a second, reverse the roles of the parents, and tell me > with a straight face that things would have been the same in this > case. Having been involved in a case that was the reversal, it is not as easy as you assume. You would not believe the hoops that had to be jumped through to enforce the court order. > I would say that had the circumstances been reversed, all the > woman would've need do was go into the local police department, cry a > little, and tell the police that her baby was abducted by a viscious > man with a gun (whether or not he even used one). I'm sure within > seconds, every law enforcement person locally - as well as state and > maybe even federal - would have been out to nail the guy. And if it had not happened that way, she would have been charged with filing a false police report, just as he would had he done it. > And, as both I and you have said repeatedly, we don't know all the > facts. Never said I did, .....I am going on the news report that he filed a contempt of court motion....which was the wrong thing to do, that is a civil charge, takes weeks, the felony parental kidnapping charge wouold have better method to use, there is no mention of that in the article, so I can only assume that it was not done. > > > > > > Now, I'm not saying he did the 100% correct thing by wielding a gun to [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > > > > > > > > http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/GoodMorningAmerica/amber_alert_father_040713-1.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Excerpts: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > > > > > > > > > >>>>Another fathers screws himself.......probably took advice from someone >>> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > What I find perplexing is that no where in the article did it mention > that the mother was arrested for taking the child in the first place. Surely you jest. The feminazi army is not going to arrest a female. That isn't their job. Bob SignatureWhen did we divide into sides? "As president, I will put American government and our legal system back on the side of women." John Kerry, misandrist Democratic candidate for President. http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/ [Bob does not advocate any illegal, seditious, or immoral acts. All posts are for discussion, rhetorical, or humorous purposes only.] Booby once gain show what a fool he is. > >>>>Another fathers screws himself.......probably took advice from someone > >>> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > Surely you jest. The feminazi army is not going to arrest a female. > That isn't their job. Provide proof of your allegations > Bob > Interesting how the "justice" system failed to listen to the man in > this case, yet were all eyes and ears when he decided to take it upon > himself to save his child from the child's dangerous and felonous > mother. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/GoodMorningAmerica/amber_alert_father_040713-1.html When they started Amber Alert in one sense I thought it is a good thing but knew some liberal a.shole police department would eventually abuse it by using it against fathers that take their children out of dangerous situations or in custody disputes. This is very sad day for what the Amber Alert system was really intended for. Hopefully this will not be a continuing pattern since you do not want to have people ignoring the Amber Alert since they may feel it used for custody issues and may not assist in the program when a legitamate kidnapping does occur. > Excerpts: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Alert and that Cleveland should not have taken matters into his own > hands. > > Interesting how the "justice" system failed to listen to the man in > > this case, yet were all eyes and ears when he decided to take it upon > > himself to save his child from the child's dangerous and felonous > > mother. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/GoodMorningAmerica/amber_alert_father_0407 13-1.html > When they started Amber Alert in one sense I thought it is a good thing but > knew some liberal a.shole police department would eventually abuse it by [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > issues and may not assist in the program when a legitamate kidnapping does > occur. ---------------------- A couple weeks ago they issued an Amber Alert for a young girl here in AZ. Naturally it was just a father not returning his daughter. The way they are using Amber Alerts it's not going to be long before everybody ignores them. ~AZ~ > > Excerpts: > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Alert and that Cleveland should not have taken matters into his own > > hands. >A couple weeks ago they issued an Amber Alert for a young girl here in AZ. >Naturally it was just a father not returning his daughter. The way they are >using Amber Alerts it's not going to be long before everybody ignores them. Amber whats? > >A couple weeks ago they issued an Amber Alert for a young girl here in AZ. > >Naturally it was just a father not returning his daughter. The way they are > >using Amber Alerts it's not going to be long before everybody ignores them. > > Amber whats? ----------------------- You really don't know what an Amber Alert is? It's a system that puts out the information nationwide on tv, radio and info systems over the highways when a kid is missing. It seemed like a good idea but it's being missused in custody disputes. ~AZ~ >>>A couple weeks ago they issued an Amber Alert for a young girl here in >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > It seemed like a good idea but it's being missused in custody disputes. > ~AZ~ Yes, we know what "Amber Alert" system is. It's another media blitz to promote the idea of man=villain, female=victim. It was a very bad misandrist idea, and it's been used very badly -- of course. Bob SignatureWhen did we divide into sides? "As president, I will put American government and our legal system back on the side of women." John Kerry, misandrist Democratic candidate for President. http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/ [Bob does not advocate any illegal, seditious, or immoral acts. All posts are for discussion, rhetorical, or humorous purposes only.] >>>Interesting how the "justice" system failed to listen to the man in >>>this case, yet were all eyes and ears when he decided to take it upon [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > ~AZ~ If we are lucky they will go the way of the kids on milk cartons. Just another anti father hate tactic that eventually gets ignored. Bob SignatureWhen did we divide into sides? "As president, I will put American government and our legal system back on the side of women." John Kerry, misandrist Democratic candidate for President. http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/ [Bob does not advocate any illegal, seditious, or immoral acts. All posts are for discussion, rhetorical, or humorous purposes only.] Poor Booby.........see conspiracy in everything..........yet another sign of mental illness > >>>Interesting how the "justice" system failed to listen to the man in > >>>this case, yet were all eyes and ears when he decided to take it upon > >>>himself to save his child from the child's dangerous and felonous > >>>mother. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/GoodMorningAmerica/amber_alert_father_0407 > > 13-1.html > > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Bob >>Interesting how the "justice" system failed to listen to the man in >>this case, yet were all eyes and ears when he decided to take it upon [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > issues and may not assist in the program when a legitamate kidnapping does > occur. Probably 99% of "Amber Alert" warnings are for domestic custody disputes, and probably that means 98% are issued for fathers who are taking care of their children. We had another Amber Alert this weekend, another man who was protecting his daughter. Another man rounded up by the Feminazi Gestapo and sent to concentration camp. The system was intended to be another tool of radical misandrist feminism, and it has certainly proved itself so. Bob SignatureWhen did we divide into sides? "As president, I will put American government and our legal system back on the side of women." John Kerry, misandrist Democratic candidate for President. http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/ [Bob does not advocate any illegal, seditious, or immoral acts. All posts are for discussion, rhetorical, or humorous purposes only.] Of course Booby has no documentation of his silly assertions, just more fantasy from the mentality disturbed NG moron. > >>Interesting how the "justice" system failed to listen to the man in > >>this case, yet were all eyes and ears when he decided to take it upon > >>himself to save his child from the child's dangerous and felonous > >>mother. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/GoodMorningAmerica/amber_alert_father_040713-1.html > > When they started Amber Alert in one sense I thought it is a good thing but > > knew some liberal a.shole police department would eventually abuse it by [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Bob "Don" <don@free> wrote in message news:... > > Interesting how the "justice" system failed to listen to the man in > > this case, yet were all eyes and ears when he decided to take it upon > > himself to save his child from the child's dangerous and felonous > > mother. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/GoodMorningAmerica/amber_alert_father_040713-1.html > When they started Amber Alert in one sense I thought it is a good thing but > knew some liberal a.shole police department would eventually abuse it by > using it against fathers that take their children out of dangerous > situations or in custody disputes. This is very sad day for what the Amber > Alert system was really intended for. > > Hopefully this will not be a continuing pattern since you do not want to > have people ignoring the Amber Alert since they may feel it used for custody > issues and may not assist in the program when a legitamate kidnapping does > occur. To add: with the state of things these days it is best for all fathers, even under good visitation (I hate that word) terms to always carry a copy of the custody and visitation schedule in the glove box. It is way too easy for a CP to abuse her power and put you in a dangerous situation with police even if you have done nothing wrong. > Interesting how the "justice" system failed to listen to the man in > this case, yet were all eyes and ears when he decided to take it upon > himself to save his child from the child's dangerous and felonous > mother. US Law generally does not allow you to protect yourself or your children. Most people will remember the guy on the NYC subway who was arrested and sentenced after protecting himself from a gang of thugs. Unless you are home, in your own home, and someone breaks into your home and actually threatens to kill you, US law will likely come down harder on you than the person you are defending yourself from. The Gun Thugs also have no duty or obligation to protect anyone, as they have repeatedly told courts and been supported. Protecting anyone is not their job. So in summary, you are not allowed to protect yourself or your family, and nobody else is allowed to either. Your only hope is to stay out of notice and hope that whoever the gun thugs rounded up last week will save you. Of course that doesn't work when your child is at serious risk, but that's the law. No man or his child is safe under feminazism nor from their SS Gestapo in blue. Cleveland apparently learned the hard way. When your kid is taken, unless you are willing to take up arms agaisnt the system, all you can do is kiss her goodbye. Bob > http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/GoodMorningAmerica/amber_alert_father_040713-1.html > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Alert and that Cleveland should not have taken matters into his own > hands. SignatureWhen did we divide into sides? "As president, I will put American government and our legal system back on the side of women." John Kerry, misandrist Democratic candidate for President. http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/ [Bob does not advocate any illegal, seditious, or immoral acts. All posts are for discussion, rhetorical, or humorous purposes only.] > Interesting how the "justice" system failed to listen to the man in > this case, yet were all eyes and ears when he decided to take it upon > himself to save his child from the child's dangerous and felonous > mother. > > http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/GoodMorningAmerica/amber_alert_father_040713-1.html Mistake #1. It's impossible to abduct your own child. It's yours. >>Interesting how the "justice" system failed to listen to the man in >>this case, yet were all eyes and ears when he decided to take it upon [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Mistake #1. > It's impossible to abduct your own child. It's yours. Exactly!!! Bob SignatureWhen did we divide into sides? "As president, I will put American government and our legal system back on the side of women." John Kerry, misandrist Democratic candidate for President. http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/ [Bob does not advocate any illegal, seditious, or immoral acts. All posts are for discussion, rhetorical, or humorous purposes only.] http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/GoodMorningAmerica/amber_alert_father_040713-1.html > Mistake #1. > It's impossible to abduct your own child. It's yours. I disagree. From the California District Attorney's Child Abduction Unit FAQ: CAN A FAMILY MEMBER ABDUCT THEIR OWN CHILD? The District Attorney's Office Child Abduction unit is only involved when a parent or other family member abducts a child. Not only does child abduction involve violation of Family Court, Juvenile Court and/or Probate Court orders, but it also involves a FELONY violation of the law. The punishment for committing such a crime can be up to four years in prison and a $10,000 fine, even if the abductor is a family member! [ TOP ] I posted here a few weeks ago when my ex took my child out of state during my weekend (clear court orders, no notice to or permission from me, etc). I got nowhere with the police nor the DA when I asked them to follow up on a violation of the penal code (CA 278.5--Child Stealing). Police told me to go see the family court judge and tell him she's in contempt of court. Here in CA, it takes 6 weeks to get on the calendar for a contempt arraignment, and it takes 2 more months to get a trial. And though the numbers are not made public, I can say with confidence that the number of mothers serving time for contempt of a custody order hovers near 0% here. This is no recourse for a victim of custody interference/child stealing. When the child is in danger (as Mr. Cleveland is reported to have claimed) 14 weeks might as well be a lifetime. After the police, I went to the DA's office with a copy of the text I pasted above in hand. They had the ignorance to tell me "if you're not the 'custodial parent' then we won't pursue it." In other words, NCPs have ZERO rights. He didn't abduct the child, SHE did. But the public perception will be the opposite. Using the gun was wrong, as others here have opined, so he blew it and it's too bad that this kid might lose her father for a while as he serves his time. But the minute authorities realized this woman took the child in the presence of custody orders preventing her from doing so, she should have been charged with a felony and taken into custody and the media alerted that a malicious mom had been swiftly dealt with under the law. Jay R. > http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/GoodMorningAmerica/amber_alert_father_040713-1.html > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > From the California District Attorney's Child Abduction Unit FAQ: A LIE from a lying feminist weasel is a LIE. Thanks for reaffirming that truth. It IS kidnapping when the California District Attorney, bigot bastards on the benches, and their Feminazi minions steal a child from the fathers. Bob > CAN A FAMILY MEMBER ABDUCT THEIR OWN CHILD? > The District Attorney's Office Child Abduction unit is only involved [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Jay R. SignatureWhen did we divide into sides? "As president, I will put American government and our legal system back on the side of women." John Kerry, misandrist Democratic candidate for President. http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/ [Bob does not advocate any illegal, seditious, or immoral acts. All posts are for discussion, rhetorical, or humorous purposes only.] > http://abcnews.go.com/sections/US/GoodMorningAmerica/amber_alert_father_040713-1.html > > > > Mistake #1. > > It's impossible to abduct your own child. It's yours. > > I disagree. Steve is a man's name is it not? I said it was impossible to abduct his own child, because he's a man. Obviously a woman can abduct a child from a man because they're just the mother. A father can raise his child without woman's help. A woman can't do it without men's. |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2010 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.