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Family Forum / Parenting / Parenting / January 2006Visitation/Child Support
Hello, I was thinking about starting a business. Non-profit that helps men with visitation and child support. I want to help them file paperwork etc. I helped my brother do this and we were able to gain visitation and even reduce child support. I think men need support like this. Are there other ways in with a non-profit can help men. Because the courts certainly don't. And many men can not afford attorneys. Lava > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > don't. > And many men can not afford attorneys. ==== What you're proposing is called "Unauthorized Practice of Law" and it's illegal. ==== >>Hello, >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > illegal. > ==== That's true. The OP would need to have an licensed attorney on staff to make this non-profit business legal. This attorney would probably need to be willing to work on a pro-bono (free) basis unless there is some funding available. I do think this would be a valuable service that for many men who suddenly find themselves in a difficult situation and don't have the cash to retain an attorney of their own. Sometimes just knowing basic courtroom procedure and which forms to file is enough to get a destitute father going and give him a chance to stay involved in his kid's lives. >>>Hello, >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > procedure and which forms to file is enough to get a destitute father > going and give him a chance to stay involved in his kid's lives. === But this information is available online now and for dads to handle their case pro se, they *absolutely positively* must know their controlling state's family law statutes and rules of procedures. In fact, they should know this even if they hire an attorney. As for the OP, he/she cannot even advise the father *which* forms to fill out without risking UPL. In fact, conversations here frequently get into areas of law that we cannot (legally) comment on without the required "I am not an attorney" disclaimer. === The truth of the matter is that often the attorney's that handle child support are incompetent and do not know the law all that well. It would be nice for an attorney to start a non-profit, maybe there is a way to get some federal funding? Two and a half more years and I will be fighting to good fight... Men are not the only ones who pay child support! Women do, too, and there is absolutely NO HELP to assist us in court or in correcting inaccuracies of the Virginia Dept. of Child Support Enforcement. The VA DCSE can do exactly what it wants to do, including violation of JD&R court orders and adding amount to arrears that cannot be proven as owed. Some type of free legal help would be a blessing indeed! > Men are not the only ones who pay child support! Women do, too, and there > is absolutely NO HELP to assist us in court or in correcting inaccuracies [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Some type of free legal help would be a blessing indeed! There are a few, very few, cases where women are paying child support. But such cases are extremely rare, particularly when they involve women paying CS to the fathers of their children--as distinct from some other party who has custody of the children. The basic reason why child support enforcement is riddled with unfairness and outright illegality is that the target of CS enforcement agencies is heterosexual men, who belong to one of the few remaining official scapegoat groups in the U.S. If heterosexual men, or fathers, ever get themselves organized into an effective political group, they will be able to fight back against their treatment at the hands of CS agencies. Until then, they will continue to be treated the way blacks were treated in the Jim Crow days. And the tiny handful of women who get caught up in the CS enforcement machinery will be similarly treated. (Of course, if fathers ever did achieve any political clout, there would be an end to the glass ceiling on paternal custody, and the numbers of women who had to pay CS, instead of receiving it, would rise considerably.) > If heterosexual men, or fathers, ever get themselves organized into an > effective political group, they will be able to fight back against their > treatment at the hands of CS agencies. Afraid not. As has been pointed out here before, when has an oppressed group been liberated solely through their own actions? Jews in Nazi Germany? Blacks in the Jim Crow South? Blacks in apartheid South Africa? Kurds in Ba'athist Iraq? Wouldn't you agree that among other things, a mainstream media crusade is necessary? After all, it is the mainstream media that is required to prop up the current oppressive system. Then there is something else. Don't we all want an appropriate system that stops the current child abuse rather than one that reverses the current system and rewards men and oppresses women? Well when in history has an oppressed group been motivated to action without the promise of spoils held out by and to the movement leaders? >And the tiny handful of women who get caught up in the C$ >enforcement machinery will be similarly treated. Why? For example, look at the countless organizations with a written policy against racial discrimination that then overtly do. In the PC way of course. Legislating gender-neutral custody is worthless without affirmative enforcement. After all, don't we supposedly have gender-neutral now? > (Of course, if fathers ever did achieve any political clout, there would > be an end to the glass ceiling on paternal custody, and the numbers of > women who had to pay CS, instead of receiving it, would rise > considerably.) The solution is Affirmative Parenting, where judges are cajoled/ coerced/required to have a 50-50 custody average (combinations of such as half the time a father getting full custody and half the time a mother getting fully custody along with joint custody with the children spending half the time with the father and half the time with the mother). As for the outcry that "but there aren't enough qualified blacks to be hired", I mean, "but there aren't many men capable or interested in child caring" then whatever it takes will have to be done to produce the mythical missing capability and interest since judges will still have to meet the 50-50 average without excuse even if that means awarding custody to these mythical inept men. (Doesn't it feel good to think about judges in a position where no excuse is accepted--I have a dream!) With the advent of formula, postpartum a father can parent just as well as a mother. RFTWKO--and both is best. I don't think there is any disagreement between us, abdd. In my original comment, I didn't want to go on at too great length, spelling out exactly what would be involved. However, to your question below, I would pose another question. When has an oppressed group been liberated WITHOUT any political organizing on their own behalf? The problem at the moment is that, as Warren Farrell puts it, "in the battle of the sexes, only one side shows up." When I was more involved in the fathers' movement, the typical situation was that nearly all fathers would focus solely on their personal situations. When they decided that their personal problems had been resolved, or (more likely) that they never would be resolved, they would drop out. Conspicuously lacking was the drive to focus on the overall situation where fathers were victimized as a result of the grotesquely distorted anti-male bias in divorce laws, family courts, and state legislatures. Few fathers seemed to realize that what happened to them was primarily the result of a general feature of the political and legal landscape, and only secondarily the result of their personal actions, or the woman they had been married to. Furthermore, of course attention must be paid to the media, but that would follow the establishment of a political group that would stand up for the interests of men when they are in conflict with women. I believe that the ultimate solution is for all these matters to be privatized through comprehensive and enforceable prenuptial contracts. However, if government is to continue to be involved in marriage and divorce issues, the same quota principles that are applied in the employment area should be applied to such matters as custody. That too will never happen until the political voice of fathers is much stronger than it is at present. >> If heterosexual men, or fathers, ever get themselves organized into an >> effective political group, they will be able to fight back against their [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > With the advent of formula, postpartum a father can parent just > as well as a mother. RFTWKO--and both is best. There is a place you can get free information from an attorney! Go to: www.ncsingleparent.com and click on "forums". You will have to register first, but the registration is free. Once you are registered, there is a forum called ask "As An Attorney". We have a family law attorney that answers questions for free. There is also an article about representing yourself at: http://www.ncsingleparent.com/separation.htm I would, very much, like to add a guide to forms and procedures related to "pro se" representation to the website. Have a great day! Montie > I don't think there is any disagreement between us, abdd. In my > original comment, I didn't want to go on at too great length, spelling out [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > > With the advent of formula, postpartum a father can parent just > > as well as a mother. RFTWKO--and both is best. >When has an oppressed group been liberated WITHOUT any >political organizing on their own behalf? So? Anyone thinking mere organizing is the solution is as ignorant as those who fail to recognize C$ as another political funds transfer vote buying scheme and think it is a well meaning valid institution that simply needs tweaking. Hmmm, so Cindy Sheehan's prominence is due to her great organizational skills? I get it-- Army Of One, she is a political organization of one so that is why she has been so sucessful! X-) On the subject of organization, there are two observations. First, there is a hodge podge of distinct separate groups. It is as though every motivated and vicitimized father--and of course there are very many--has started their own group. If there is a single leading group (i.e. the anti-NOW) let us know. Second, most groups, particularly the better publicized ones, are male apologist groups--"We men are so terrible and bad and aweful fathers but please accept our sins and help us not to be such evil child abusing wife beating family abandoning deadbeads that all men are." And you think organizing is good? Here's a third observation, the most outragous information posted here (e.g. the police gleefully assisting a mother in insuring her children are alienated from their father) generates the least reaction. As pointed out already, the thrust here is one of opining over what is the best way to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titantic. "abdd" <abdd@hellonearth.org> wrote in > As pointed out already, the thrust here is one > of opining over what is the best way to rearrange the deck > chairs on the Titantic. Realizing that CS issues are nothing more than political stages for gain, it's going to take a powerful organized group to swing the votes the other way and get a control on this obscene abuse of low end income earners. abdd: I continue to think there is little difference between us. I was not, of course, suggesting that organizing by itself was the solution. However, it is an essential PART of the solution. Are you familiar with the expression that some action or other is a "necessary but not a sufficient" part of the remedy to a problem? In other words, action A must take place before the solution of the problem can be achieved, but action A is not by itself sufficient to bring about the solution to the problem. That's the way it is for fathers, or men, who organize to fight the systematic and pervasive discrimination against them. Organizing alone will not solve the problem. However, if fathers and men DON'T organize to fight the discrimination against them, nothing whatsoever will happen. As for your more specific comments below, I have absolutely no sympathy for those men who join groups that passively accept feminist anti-male dogma. Men should stand up to feminists and point out that women owe an enormous amount to what has been achieved almost exclusively by men in such fields as science, music, engineering, etc., etc. That is part of getting away from the situation where, in the battle of the sexes, only one side shows up. > >When has an oppressed group been liberated WITHOUT any >>political organizing on their own behalf? [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > of opining over what is the best way to rearrange the deck > chairs on the Titantic. > [organization] is an essential PART of the solution. And what of the other point: C$ victims seek an end to their oppression and the abuse of their children rather than a reversal of fortune--when in history has an oppressed group been effectively organized without the promise of spoils and the receipt of spoils by their leadership? > > [organization] is an essential PART of the solution. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > group been effectively organized without the promise of > spoils and the receipt of spoils by their leadership? That's a lot of fiery language in one sentence for any reader to digest. It would be helpful if you could define how you come to the conclusion some or all divorced, separated or never married parents are "victims." What aspects of CS do you consider to be "oppressive"? How are children "abused" by CS? While most of us would agree there are significant problems within the CS system, only a few people in our society actually understand what can happen within the system. But not everyone within the system believes CS creates "victims", "oppression", and "abuse". There are people within and outside the CS system who just accept it "as is". My personal experience is people who challenge the system get different treatment than people who accept the system. But that doesn't mean everyone is a victim. I decided a long time ago channeling my energy into changing the system rather than fighting the system was the only way to be productive. What are your thoughts on that? > > > [organization] is an essential PART of the solution. > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > the system rather than fighting the system was the only way to be > productive. What are your thoughts on that? ...I agree. To many clichés to list... I have found the more questions I ask, the more obfuscated the *spoken* answers become. Therefore, I usually like to use trickery and an implied ignorance of the law(make them think you're dumb). "Art of war" kinda stuff.  Signature"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation." --Herbert Spencer theelectricgunssuck.com >> when in history has an oppressed >> group been effectively organized without the promise of >> spoils and the receipt of spoils by their leadership? ... >I decided a long time ago channeling my energy into changing > the system rather than fighting the system was the only way to be > productive. What are your thoughts on that? Gee, how successful has your "rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic" approach been? In fact, such an approach only serves to legitimize a system of oppression and allow it flourish. You & Me throughout history: You: slavery is cruel and horrible. we need to change things so slave families are not broken up and slaves are insured medical treatment and the ability to rest when sick or injured. Me: slavery is an abomination. it needs to be abolished, not prettied up and made more acceptable. You: Nazi treatment of Jews is cruel and horrible. we need to improve the sanitation level in the slave camps and not punish the residents without approval of the commandant's punishment review committee. Me: Nazi treatment of Jews is an abomination. It need to be ceased and all those involved held accountable. You: British treatment of the residents of India is cruel and horrible. We need to change things so the people of India have one, no, make that two members of the House of Commons assigned the role of protector of the interests of the people of India. Me: British treatment of residents of India is an abomination. India should have self-rule. You: Southern treatment of blacks is cruel and horrible. We need to increase the punishment for lynching and insure there are just as many colored water fountains as there as white water fountains. Me: Southern treatments of blacks is an abomination. The federal government must intervene and end all forms of racial segregation and discrimination. But you just go on rearranging those deck chairs and telling us what a good and practical approach it is. Until you recognize C$ as the political vote buying scheme that it is your comments defending it are of no interest. Well, no interest to people opposed to oppression. The people benefiting from it welcome your remarks. > >> when in history has an oppressed > >> group been effectively organized without the promise of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > serves to legitimize a system of oppression and allow it > flourish. Railing about the CS system is not productive. The way to facilitate changes is to understand the current system, establish relationships with state CS administrators, meet with your state representatives to discuss your concerns, monitor legislative activity, testify before house judiciary committee hearings, and be a credible concerned citizen. Sometimes being successful is blocking changes for good reasons. Other times its slowing things down so the legislative committees consider your concerns and make modifications to proposed laws. Still other times its just giving the legislature an earful from a parent's perspective. Successes - Stopping a proposal to establish an over-riding money judgment when multiple money judgments exist in more than one jurisdiction. Establishing parental advocates in courthouses to assist in preparing and filing court documents pro se. Getting the house judiciary committee to recognize the need to fund parental information programs to notify CS program constituents of changes rather than pretending major changes to the program are "revenue neutral." Now how about listing your successes using the scorched earth approach to changing the CS system. > Now how about listing your successes using the scorched earth approach to > changing the CS system. Abolishing C$ would, by definition, eliminate its oppression. You live in a fantasy world with your notion that C$ ills are just inadvertent mistakes and if those in charge were only made aware of them they would thank you and rush to make changes. C$ is just another political vote buying scheme. Its tie to the support of children is only one of this being an effective bit of propaganda to mask this truth and keeping the support of the ignorant--especially the dumb a.ses who only need to have it prettied up to fully embrace it. I found another newsreel of us in history: you: if only curtains were put inside the concentration camp barracks it would make things better. No need to do anything so rash as to bulldoze, I mean scorch the earth of the camps. me: scorch the camps and don't spare the gasoline on their operators. you: what if the policy was changed so blacks sit on the left side of the bus and whites on the right side, wouldn't this make Rosa Parks and everyone else happy? me: dig a deep hole, put all vestiges of Jim Crow in it, and cover it over. Oh, and then scorch the earth above the hole. and on and on. Look in the mirror, it is people exactly like you with your tolerance for oppression that allows it to flourish. The oppressors love dupes like you, the easily fooled who the oppressors are more than happy to pretend to accept improvement suggestions from. you: well sure apartheid is bad but I think with a few changes it will work for everyone in South Africa. Let's not take a scorched earth approach, that will never work. You make it so easy for you and your nonsense to be mocked. >> Now how about listing your successes using the scorched earth approach to >> changing the CS system. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and keeping the support of the ignorant--especially the dumb a.ses > who only need to have it prettied up to fully embrace it. I don't think you are being really fair to Bob and people like him who take the time to fight the system a different way than you have chosen to fight it. I don't see Bob excusing any part of the system. He still steps up to the plate and fights even though he no longer has a pony in the race. When your children are grown and gone, will you still be fighting? And, if it were all up to you, what would you do to make sure that the needs of children were met? How would you set things up? Or would you just throw out today's obviously unfair system and replace it with nothing? Let the chips fall where they may. I know from reading Bob's postings what he is doing to try to bring a balance and fairness among the needs of children, mothers and fathers. But I have not seen your plan spelled out. I do understand your anger and frustration. I just don't know exactly what you are doing to fix things. > I don't think you are being really fair to Bob and people like him who > take the time to fight the system a different way than you have chosen to > fight it. No one need be fair to anyone supporting political oppression. Prettied up tyranny is still tyranny. Except the dupes walk away happy once they get consessions on concentration camp sanitation conditions and limits on how many victims at a time are crammed into the boxcars taking them there. Big fuckin' whup! > And, if it were all up to you, what would you do to make sure that the > needs of children were met? Please allow my outrage to tell you to get a dictionary so you can understand the words: C$ is a political vote buying scheme and its only connection to the needs of any child is what it advertises to keep the support of dupes. Sure enough, I had no problem finding some newsreels of us as well: you: apartheid cannot be eliminated until there is a system in place to govern South Africa's majority population. Since you don't have a system, I say KEEP APARTHEID NOW! me: f.ck apartheid and those crawling out from under rocks with excuses so as to keep it in place. Fair enough? Oh, here's another. You did get around throughout history: you: my fellow citizens, I implore you, we simply cannot abolish slavery unless and until we can make sure that darkie needs are fully met. I do not support slavery myself, mind you, but let's not be rash. With a few changes I am sure we can improve the bondage state of the coloreds while keeping this fine institution with a long history. me: free all God's children and do so without reservation or restriction. Hey, yet another: you: while the use of poll tests in the South may have the effect of denying the negro suffrage, do they not serve the need of having educated voters? Let's not abandon a system that can be fixed instead. I have yet to hear anyone come up with a replacement. me: polls test should be eliminated, totally, and not just prettied up so you dupes remain happy with them. They exist solely to deny the right to vote and have nothing to do with voter education, except in the minds of the easily fooled who embrace this false notion. I have to wonder how morons figure out how to use the Internet. > I have to wonder how morons figure out how to use the Internet. Perhaps you'll be able to tell us how you did it :-) >> I don't think you are being really fair to Bob and people like him who >> take the time to fight the system a different way than you have chosen to [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the words: C$ is a political vote buying scheme and its only connection to > the needs of any child is what it advertises to keep the support of dupes. == Bob has been active for decades working for father's rights. What have you done? == Yet with all your cute little newsreels, you have not told us what *you* are doing to help besides spewing venom on a newsgroup. You are bashing someone who *is* doing something--but all I see is bashing. I do not see any action from you. (more below) >> I don't think you are being really fair to Bob and people like him who >> take the time to fight the system a different way than you have chosen to [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the words: C$ is a political vote buying scheme and its only connection to > the needs of any child is what it advertises to keep the support of dupes. I do not disagree with you that the CS system has little to do with the best interests of children. But the question that I asked you remains unanswered: What would YOU do to make sure the needs of children ae being met? (Please note the words 'needs'--not wants or luxuries) Would you set up a different system? Would you automatically give children to their fathers? Would you let things just work themselves out and stay out of it completely? And if that is your choice, would you raise taxes to cover the flood of people seeking government assistance? Just exactly what would you do besides destroy the present system? Or has your thinking stopped at destroying the present system and not moved beyond that one goal? > Sure enough, I had no problem finding some newsreels of us as well: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > me: f.ck apartheid and those crawling out from under rocks with > excuses so as to keep it in place. Fair enough? No, not at all. But then none of your little newsreels have been fair, have they? > Oh, here's another. You did get around throughout history: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > history. > me: free all God's children and do so without reservation or restriction. Again, what cute little pictures you paint to make those who are actually doing something about the system look weak, and make you, who seem to be doing absolutely nothing but post on a newsgroup, look like a hero. <chuckle> > Hey, yet another: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > education, except in the minds of the easily fooled who embrace > this false notion. And you have done precisely what to end the "poll test" of the CS system? > I have to wonder how morons figure out how to use the Internet. And I wonder how long it will take you to discover that your cute little newsreels posted on a newsgroup have accomplished nothing except the overinflation of your own ego. "teachrmama" <teachrmama@iwon.com> wrote in > unanswered: What would YOU do to make sure the needs of children ae being > met? That's pretty simple isn't it? More affordable housing and Government Food centers for those that really need it? Before anybody jumps on the cost of such programs. Look at the sky rocketing cost of the Iraq war in just short time period or the staggering costs the federal government spends now on enforcing the present CS program? It's all about saving money, so why not implement government sponsored programs of real long term help instead of short term solutions that only make matters worse for everyone and we're selling out our freedoms for political gains. > Yet with all your cute little newsreels, Don't care to attack the accuracy of these historical events? It is because disputing the truth would show you as the fools you are? >you have not told us what *you* are doing to help besides spewing venom on >a newsgroup. Pretty lame rhetoric, labeling presenting the truth as "spewing venom". I oppose C$ oppression, you defend and embrace it. Go back to your feminist newsgroups, this is not one. I am not inclined to engage in discourse with someone who is trying to waste the time of people against this tyranny regardless of how you try to disguise your true intent. >You are bashing someone who *is* doing something-- >but all I see is bashing. I do not see any action from you. C$ oppression is evil. It is whether I had eggs for breakfast or a martini. It is whether I walked to work this morning or used a pogo stick. Let's be real, anyone who falls for your childish "do something" arguement is someone already bonded to PC behavior and already is a cohort of yours in defending C$. "abdd" <abdd@hellonearth.org> wrote in > C$ oppression is evil. It is whether I had eggs for breakfast > or a martini. It is whether I walked to work this morning > or used a pogo stick. Let's be real, anyone who falls for > your childish "do something" arguement is someone already > bonded to PC behavior and already is a cohort of yours > in defending C$. I'm not a supporter of CS in the least, but what have any of us really done to chnage anything! Seems all we do is rant on this NG, which doesn't cost us a dime! >> Yet with all your cute little newsreels, > > Don't care to attack the accuracy of these historical > events? It is because disputing the truth would show > you as the fools you are? Why would I attack the accuracy of historical events? Would attacking the accuracy of historical events in any way lessen the evil of the CS system? If so, in what way would that happen? >>you have not told us what *you* are doing to help besides spewing venom on >>a newsgroup. > > Pretty lame rhetoric, labeling presenting the truth as "spewing > venom". Which "truth"? The historical events? Or calling people who are standing up against than you do (whatever that may be) names and comparing them to Nazi sympathizers? I oppose C$ oppression, you defend and embrace > it. Go back to your feminist newsgroups, this is not one. <snicker> Feminist newsgroups. You are a card, abdd!!! > I am not inclined to engage in discourse with someone who is > trying to waste the time of people against this tyranny regardless > of how you try to disguise your true intent. <howling with laughter> It has been a long, hard day, abdd. Thanks for the comic relief! >>You are bashing someone who *is* doing something-- >>but all I see is bashing. I do not see any action from you. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > bonded to PC behavior and already is a cohort of yours > in defending C$. <chuckle> I don't like the current system any more than you do. I don't like being told that the children my husband and I brought into this world are "irrelevant" because a self serving system considers that his older daughter (which he found out about when she was nearly 13) is the only one that counts. They, after all, can't collect money from anyone for *our* children--but they can get rewarded for collecting CS for his older child. Perhaps calling people names and comparing them to Nazi supporters and other similar things works for you and helps you deal with your frustration. If it helps you vent, so be it. But I don't understand how you say you are against the system when you can't name one single thing you are doing to oppose it. "Bob Whiteside" <robertg@teleport.com> wrote in > Now how about listing your successes using the scorched earth approach to > changing the CS system. I agree that shouting about the present system on here solves nothing, but it doesn't mean we have to accept or approve a system that is so bias and unfair, it stinks of prejudice. The only way to fight this political system is to single out the people that are supporting it and vote their a.ses out of office. Oh wait a minute, they've already figured that move out and made us felons so we can't vote! That's fine, we still have parents, brothers, sisters, cousins, it's time to put up or shut up! If it can get voted into legislation, it sure as hell can get voted out by a bigger lobby, along with all the limp dicks that support such a pathetic piece of poorly thought out policy!!!!!!!!! |
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