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Family Forum / Parenting / Parenting / January 2006



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Calculating NCP College Support Costs

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Seektao - 02 Jan 2006 02:48 GMT
Yes the FAFSA form for calculating the CP financial contribution is
only sent to the CP, but how is the NCP contribution figured?  What are
the records on case law, judgements as to how the NCP is assessed for
his share?  My finacial adviser suggested $2,000 per child.  Along with
the child support for two daughters over 4 years this totals $40,000.
How much can they grind you for before it is judged 'unjust?'
Seektao
Bob Whiteside - 02 Jan 2006 04:16 GMT
> Yes the FAFSA form for calculating the CP financial contribution is
> only sent to the CP, but how is the NCP contribution figured?

It would be helpful if we knew whether you are the CP or the NCP to limit
the amount of information to share with you.

If you are the CP the CS received for all children plus alimony received is
a Worksheet B add-on to your income.  If you are an NCP all CS and alimony
paid is a Worksheet C deduction from your income.

What are
> the records on case law, judgements as to how the NCP is assessed for
> his share?

It depends on what your state CS law says about CS for adult children
attending school.  Generally, how an NCP is required to pay CS is based on
the number of children and their ages.  CS orders for adult children plus
minor children still reamining in the home can be split or combined based on
whether state law allows the CS to be paid directly to the college student.
CS for only one child can be paid directly to the student.

The case law in my state is very specific.  It makes very clear CS for minor
children is for the care and maintenance of the children.  And CS for adult
children attending school is for advancing the state's interests in having
an educated populace.  IOW - Once a child reaches the age of 18 in my state
the CP no longer gets the use of the CS money and the student has sole
discretion over how the CS money is spent since it is paid directly to the
student.

My finacial adviser suggested $2,000 per child.  Along with
> the child support for two daughters over 4 years this totals $40,000.
> How much can they grind you for before it is judged 'unjust?'

Fire your financial advisor.  They are making up stuff and giving you bad
advice!

You'll get better college funding advice from your student's high school
FAFSA advisor and by reading the Department of Education's booklet "Funding
Your Education" downloadable from www.fafsa.ed.gov.
Werebat - 04 Jan 2006 23:47 GMT
>>Yes the FAFSA form for calculating the CP financial contribution is
>>only sent to the CP, but how is the NCP contribution figured?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> children attending school is for advancing the state's interests in having
> an educated populace.

But what about children of married parents?  What recourse do they have
if their parents refuse to give them any money for college?

   - Ron   ^*^
Kenneth S. - 05 Jan 2006 12:28 GMT
>>>Yes the FAFSA form for calculating the CP financial contribution is
>>>only sent to the CP, but how is the NCP contribution figured?
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
>    - Ron   ^*^

   Ron's comment above is very much to the point.  I used to write up court
cases for a newsletter, and over the years I saw quite a few cases where the
issue was support of adult "children."  Judges in these cases commonly cited
the interest of the state in having an educated population.  However, these
judges never explained why -- if that WAS the state's interest -- there was
no law requiring that children of married parents pay support during the
college years.  If there was no need for such a law (because married parents
would do this anyway), then the law would require no enforcement against
married parents, but it would have ceased to be discriminatory.

   When I was writing up such cases, I used to wonder whether the judges
who wrote the rulings were just plain lacking in intelligence, because they
articulated an obviously deficient justification for the discrimination
between married and unmarried parents (mostly, as a practical matter,
fathers).  My conclusion was that, while some of the judges might have been
stupid, most of them were just being dishonest.  They knew full well that it
was fine to discriminate against an official scapegoat group.  However,
these judges also knew that any effort by the state legislature to tell
married parents that they had to support adult "children" would have caused
an outcry.

   The fact of the matter is that, although all kinds of groups are
constantly screaming about discrimination, prejudice and discrimination
against heterosexual males is widely practiced, particularly in the domestic
relations field, and no one says a word about it.
DB - 05 Jan 2006 13:57 GMT
"Kenneth S." <nimrod@starpower.net> wrote in

>    Ron's comment above is very much to the point.  I used to write up
> court cases for a newsletter, and over the years I saw quite a few cases
> where the issue was support of adult "children."  Judges in these cases
> commonly cited the interest of the state in having an educated population.

Hold on, when did the intent of CS law move from assuring children had the
basic needs to live to ensuring that the state has well educated citizens?
Bob Whiteside - 05 Jan 2006 18:58 GMT
> >>>Yes the FAFSA form for calculating the CP financial contribution is
> >>>only sent to the CP, but how is the NCP contribution figured?
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
> would do this anyway), then the law would require no enforcement against
> married parents, but it would have ceased to be discriminatory.

The Oregon Attorney General tried to argue before the Appeals Court and
State Supreme Court that divorced fathers are not treated differently than
married parents because married parents could be ordered to pay CS too.  His
logic was married, but separated, fathers could be ordered to pay CS just
like a divorced father.  The Appeals Court told the Attorney General he was
full of it, but then turned around and ruled the way Kenneth noted above.

The problem, of course, is the activist courts start with the conclusion
they want to reach and then use pretzel logic to get there.

I have always thought the best way to counter this crap is to bring a test
case where the arguments are about how children of divorced parents are
treated differently than children of married parents.  The arguments about
fathers' treatment always get shot down.  I think an argument about
treatment of children could have some success.
Bob Whiteside - 05 Jan 2006 18:39 GMT
> >>Yes the FAFSA form for calculating the CP financial contribution is
> >>only sent to the CP, but how is the NCP contribution figured?
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> But what about children of married parents?  What recourse do they have
> if their parents refuse to give them any money for college?

In the context of FAFSA and student financial aid there is no difference in
treatment between children of married or divorced parents.  If the parents
do not give the children money for college, the rules are the same for all
college students.  The federal laws regarding college funding are generally
applicable until a student reaches age 25.  Adult child attending school CS
in state laws usually ends at age 21.

The issue of CS for college students is counter-intuitive because it is a
disadvantage for children of divorced parents to receive the money.  Receipt
of CS drives up the Expected Family Contribution, forces the student to take
out larger student loans, and makes the student make up a larger CP share if
they don't give money to the student toward the EFC or take out parent
loans.

A more student friendly program would have the state butt out, let the
student declare only one parent's income, and have the other parent
voluntarily give the student money.  The overall cost of a college education
for a child of divorced parents would be lower under a plan like that.
Seektao - 06 Jan 2006 03:14 GMT
Thanks.  I appreciate your input and ideas on this. I'm in NY state,
and I want to contribute to my kids education.  I have spoken to
friends in better financial shape than me paying $2,000- $5,000 per
child for college.  So I was going on that rough guess.  Why is it such
a secret?  There must be a formula.  I do know that saving for
retiement cannot be sacrificed for college-- state has an interest
there too.
Ideas?
> > Yes the FAFSA form for calculating the CP financial contribution is
> > only sent to the CP, but how is the NCP contribution figured?
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> FAFSA advisor and by reading the Department of Education's booklet "Funding
> Your Education" downloadable from www.fafsa.ed.gov.
Moon Shyne - 06 Jan 2006 10:24 GMT
> Thanks.  I appreciate your input and ideas on this. I'm in NY state,
> and I want to contribute to my kids education.  I have spoken to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> there too.
> Ideas?

$2,000 - $5,000 per year?  do you KNOW how much college costs?

SUNY system
http://www.suny.edu/Student/paying_tuition.cfm

If you truly want to make that money for for their education, you'd do well
to open college trust funds ASAP - and how old your kids already are will
determine how much help it's going to be - 4 years (taking that from your
original post) - pity you didn't start this whole thing sooner.

>> > Yes the FAFSA form for calculating the CP financial contribution is
>> > only sent to the CP, but how is the NCP contribution figured?
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>> "Funding
>> Your Education" downloadable from www.fafsa.ed.gov.
Werebat - 06 Jan 2006 12:18 GMT
My parents told me up front, while I was in High School, that they
weren't going to be giving me any money for college.  I had to make it
on my own.  And you know what?  I made it on my own.  Worked to get two
scholarships, and they didn't HAVE to contribute anything for the first
two years.  I think they ended up giving me $2000-$3000 per year for the
last two.

If Papa State had stepped in and told us all that they HAD to
contribute, say, half, guess how much incentive I would have had to
excel in school?

But Papa State already knows this, which is why he'll NEVER go after
married parents, just the official scapegoat of divorced dads.  Then
he'll claim that it's all good in theory because in theory I could have
orchestrated my parents' breakup while I was in school if I'd really
wanted that cash.

Pathetic!

   - Ron   ^*^

>>Thanks.  I appreciate your input and ideas on this. I'm in NY state,
>>and I want to contribute to my kids education.  I have spoken to
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
>>>"Funding
>>>Your Education" downloadable from www.fafsa.ed.gov.
P. Fritz - 06 Jan 2006 15:48 GMT
The even worse thing is the guvmint funding penalizes people that save money
for college,  it simply reduces your eligibility for guvmint money,  thus
rewarding people that don't save and/or invest

> My parents told me up front, while I was in High School, that they weren't
> going to be giving me any money for college.  I had to make it on my own.
[quoted text clipped - 89 lines]
>>>>"Funding
>>>>Your Education" downloadable from www.fafsa.ed.gov.
Bob Whiteside - 06 Jan 2006 19:57 GMT
> Thanks.  I appreciate your input and ideas on this. I'm in NY state,
> and I want to contribute to my kids education.  I have spoken to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> there too.
> Ideas?

Yes.  First read the FAFSA booklet I suggested and get any questions you
have answered.  Then come up with a plan that works for you and the child's
mother.  Here is how we handled college expenses:

1.)  My ex asked me investigate all the details of student financial aid and
advise our daughter about how it all works.  We keep all the FAFSA form data
and output at my house.  My daughter completed all of the forms on my PC.

2.)  My ex took out the Parent Loans to cover the difference between the
student loans and the tuition and housing costs.

3.)  The CS I paid was used to pay all the other expenses - books,
entertainment, transportation, miscellaneous costs, and the balances on the
student's revolving account.

4.)  After CS was no longer mandated we keep the same plan, but I gave my
daughter money when she needed it, not every month.

5.)  When there were questions about the student account, the financial aid,
or anything else, I contacted the school's business office to get
clarification.

6.)  Between my daughter and me we kept her mother informed of what was
going on, why the revolving account showed what it did, and how to handle
the tax credit implications.  (This was the hardest part - trying to explain
all the financial stuff and overcoming the perception I was manipulating
her.)

7.)  When my daughter turned 18 I started taking her as a tax exemption
since I was paying more than half of her expenses and there was no further
custody of a minor child.  When she was away at school I claimed head of
household filing status because she stored her stuff at my house.
Understanding the tax implications is important too.  Download the IRS
booklet 970 Tax Benefits for Higher Education to get the details on
education tax credits.

So to comment on your post above, your friends paying $2,000-$5,000 have way
too many variables to comment on those amounts.  The costs vary greatly
between schools.  Students may live at home or on campus.  The amounts could
be cash outlays or parent loans.

What you have to guard against is paying a bunch of college expenses and
allowing your ex to take the education tax credits for money you paid.
 
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