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Family Forum / Marriage / Divorce / May 2005What are the signs?
I'm new here. Can anyone help with the 'signs' that your wife is probably going to file for divorce (even if she says that's not what she's thinking). I think I saw a post about this but I can't find it now. One of the items I remember was "She quits nagging about things that she's been bugging you about for years" (not because she's satisfied but because she's given up on you) and hints like that. Thanks, any help is appreciated. >I'm new here. Can anyone help with the 'signs' that your wife is >probably going to file for divorce (even if she says that's not what [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Thanks, any help is appreciated. I told him stuff like "our marriage is in trouble" and "we need to go to counseling" "we need some intimacy together" before i filed. After answers like "i'm busy" and "you go to counseling yourself, i don't need it" and "it's your problem, not mine", i finally did file. I told him we had to deal with things or divorce, he still put me off. After i filed, i told him i filed. He still wouldn't talk about it. When he received the papers, he claimed that this all came "out of the blue" and stuff like "why didn't you tell me?" My advice is to listen to things she tells you, if she is trying to talk. > >I'm new here. Can anyone help with the 'signs' that your wife is > >probably going to file for divorce (even if she says that's not what [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > tell me?" > My advice is to listen to things she tells you, if she is trying to talk. Yah, I AM listening. The problem is the other way around. I don't want a divorce and I'm the one who has been pushing for counselling, talking it out, self-help books, marriage retreats, etc. She says she wants to work it out, sort of half heartedly, but I'm trying to figure out if she's already made up her mind but is just waiting to tell me. >Yah, I AM listening. The problem is the other way around. I don't want >a divorce and I'm the one who has been pushing for counselling, talking >it out, self-help books, marriage retreats, etc. She says she wants to >work it out, sort of half heartedly, but I'm trying to figure out if >she's already made up her mind but is just waiting to tell me. It's possible she already has her mind made up, hard to tell. Keep trying, i wish i had more advice for you. >> Yah, I AM listening. The problem is the other way around. I don't want >> a divorce and I'm the one who has been pushing for counselling, talking [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It's possible she already has her mind made up, hard to tell. > Keep trying, i wish i had more advice for you. Hey, and once a woman has her mind made up, you know what THAT means! >> It's possible she already has her mind made up, hard to tell. >> Keep trying, i wish i had more advice for you. > >Hey, and once a woman has her mind made up, you know what THAT means! hehe, or so they say. ;-) I wouldn't generalize, though, although personally i make every effort to stick to my word and/or my goals and not change my mind all the time. And yet the other saying is that it's a "women's prerogative" (or whatever that big word is) to "change her mind". From my personal experience, it's the males who change their mind and it's hard to know what's going on in there from one day to the next! oh, wait. i proved what you said to be true, at least in one case. Just be careful with the generalizing stuff, you wishy-washy man! ;-) > >> It's possible she already has her mind made up, hard to tell. > >> Keep trying, i wish i had more advice for you. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > oh, wait. i proved what you said to be true, at least in one case. > Just be careful with the generalizing stuff, you wishy-washy man! ;-) Since the woman can file for divorce for pretty much any reason and have the legal system in her favor, I don't think that comment it very reasonable... CK >> In article <efvge.6071$Dh.5776@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Bill in >Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Since the woman can file for divorce for pretty much any reason and have the >legal system in her favor, I don't think that comment it very reasonable... Bill and i went off onto a sarcastic humor tangent. That happens around here. Back to the original post, however, it is very possible she has her mind made up and it's not going to change. Unfortunate that sometimes a person who already has a plan will string the other along and make them think there might be a chance. >>> In article <efvge.6071$Dh.5776@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "Bill in >> Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> >> Since the woman can file for divorce for pretty much any reason and have the >> legal system in her favor, I don't think that comment it very reasonable... > Bill and i went off onto a sarcastic humor tangent. That happens around here. (LOL - you'd better check in with a few in the peanut gallery first, methinks!) > Back to the original post, however, it is very possible she has her mind made > up and it's not going to change. Unfortunate that sometimes a person who > already has a plan will string the other along and make them think there might > be a chance. >> Bill and i went off onto a sarcastic humor tangent. That happens around >here. > >(LOL - you'd better check in with a few in the peanut gallery first, >methinks!) LOL.... "peanut gallery"? Dam', Bill.... you really must be ancient. I'll bet you even know who SumerFallWinterSpring is. rj >>> Bill and i went off onto a sarcastic humor tangent. That happens around >>here. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Dam', Bill.... you really must be ancient. I'll bet you even know >who SumerFallWinterSpring is. Bill is older than dirt. Just like John Riggs. ;-) (ducking) >>>> Bill and i went off onto a sarcastic humor tangent. That happens around >>> here. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > ;-) > (ducking) I'm older than John. He's just a spring chicken... >>> Bill and i went off onto a sarcastic humor tangent. That happens around >>> here. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > rj And I remember the Fall of the Rome. Does that help? > Yah, I AM listening. The problem is the other way around. I don't want > a divorce and I'm the one who has been pushing for counselling, talking > it out, self-help books, marriage retreats, etc. She says she wants to > work it out, sort of half heartedly, but I'm trying to figure out if > she's already made up her mind but is just waiting to tell me. If you are tossing out the olive branches and she is brushing them aside, it appears she may be content enough to just sit there rather than do anything about the apparent sad state of your marriage. Sometimes they just hope you get fed up with their keeping you at a distance and that you tell them you want out - no guilt that way. If that is not her preferred route you should look for the change in routine, with more time, visiting "friends" at "just some place". After that; new underwear showers at times she never used to take them - especially when they happen twice a day (DOH!) "I just need some space/time to think/to concentrate on myself/concentrate on work". Mine needed more space, too. The first sign was a cold sexual void, then a polite request for me to sleep upstairs, saying she needed more time and space. I did the same thing, tried to push her into reconciliation (I could cut-n-paste your paragraph 1 below into my life). Eventually **I** filed, not her. She was too weak to tell me, so she dug into me until I finally went away. (Yes, I dug back ;) That was paragraph 2 below from CG. Lots of the other signs folks are posting are symptoms of cheaters, not of basic unhappiness -- showering, "friends", underwear, etc. Sounds like yours is just unhappy. Really you need to worry about whether YOU want to stay in the marriage, which it sounds like you do. If you want to stay in it, if you believe in her, then don't worry if she's contemplating a divorce, just work with her to try to resolve what's bugging you both and go from there. That's all you can do. Confront her and let her know you want to stick around. It's a tough situation. - Saul > > Yah, I AM listening. The problem is the other way around. I don't want > > a divorce and I'm the one who has been pushing for counselling, talking [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > "I just need some space/time to think/to concentrate on myself/concentrate > on work". > Mine needed more space, too. The first sign was a cold sexual void, > then a polite request for me to sleep upstairs, saying she needed more > time and space. damn. she moved to another bedroom yesterday saying she needed more time and space. > I did the same thing, tried to push her into reconciliation (I could > cut-n-paste your paragraph 1 below into my life). Eventually **I** > filed, not her. So in the end, was it better that you did rather than waiting for her? > She was too weak to tell me, so she dug into me until I > finally went away. (Yes, I dug back ;) That was paragraph 2 below from [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of basic unhappiness -- showering, "friends", underwear, etc. Sounds > like yours is just unhappy. I don't think she's a cheater but Unhappy, yes, with a capital U. > Really you need to worry about whether YOU want to stay in the > marriage, which it sounds like you do. If you want to stay in it, if > you believe in her, then don't worry if she's contemplating a divorce, > just work with her to try to resolve what's bugging you both and go > from there. That's all you can do. Confront her and let her know you > want to stick around. It's a tough situation. That's what I'll try to do I guess. I'm just trying to figure out if I'm a bloody fool to keep trying. I've never known another woman, i've been with her for 20 years. i don't feel it's right to just call it quits when i think the reason she is the way she is, is from damage that goes well before our relationship. i guess still love her, even though it's been years since i've felt loved back. she's a good woman and a good friend and partner when things are on track. how long do ya wait? that's the question i keep asking myself. anyway, you sound like you've been *exactly* where i am. i appreciate your answer. Rodney M. said > > I did the same thing, tried to push her into reconciliation (I could > > cut-n-paste your paragraph 1 below into my life). Eventually **I** > > filed, not her. > > So in the end, was it better that you did rather than waiting for her? I guess it boils down to whether you're willing to wait forever. She may willing to live with things the way they are. You have to ask yourself ... are you? > > Lots of the other signs folks are posting are symptoms of cheaters, > > not of basic unhappiness -- showering, "friends", underwear, etc. Sounds > > like yours is just unhappy. > > I don't think she's a cheater but Unhappy, yes, with a capital U. Maybe she doesn't have a b/f, but do not totally rule it out. Many men and women are caught completely offguard when they find out their spouse has been cheating. > That's what I'll try to do I guess. I'm just trying to figure out if > I'm a bloody fool to keep trying. I've never known another woman, i've [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and a good friend and partner when things are on track. how long do ya > wait? that's the question i keep asking myself. Maybe you've waited long enough? If she has damage that's not marriage-related, don't kid yourself into thinking you can fix it. Don't stay with her just because you've never known another woman. That is too much like paralysis from fear of the unknown. Casey > Maybe she doesn't have a b/f, but do not totally rule it out. > Many men and women are caught completely offguard when [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Don't stay with her just because you've never known another > woman. That is too much like paralysis from fear of the unknown. ----------------------------------- 1. I'd say that, if there's not someone in the wings, there's someone she wants to pursue and is detaching to give herself permission. 2. There's a strong temptation to foolishly believe that "love can conquer all." That's rubbish. Some things are just because they are. 3. I've talked to several guys who said that they wished that they had the guts to end it when it was obvious that it was over, but stayed, hoping that she'd come to her senses, and as a result, spent several years in misery. This may be the road on which you are embarking. = R = > 1. I'd say that, if there's not someone in the wings, there's someone > she wants to pursue and is detaching to give herself permission. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > years in misery. This may be the road on which you are embarking. > = R = Let's face it - emotionally separating yourself so that you feel justified in pursuing another relationship is what this entire thread is about. It's a process that both parties go through. The speed with which each partner progresses through it dictates when the relationship ends. Some women/men simply pick up and walk out pretty quickly after the new spark comes or the fantasy develops. Some drag the detachment out for months, or years if they are actually pursuing a new relationship). And the poor tossee can hang on for years, forever even, in a desperate bid to stop the disintegration. You can't control the tossers timeline, they pull the pin when it suits them, so the tossee has to assess their own tolerance for the emotional abuse they are being put through. Mine lasted 6 months - begging, pleading, offering...until one day I realized I was acting like a dancing monkey and she was grinding the organ . She was just too much of a chicken to just leave to be with her new fella. That's when I pulled the pin. I could see the relief in her response - now it was me ending it and she could safely tell her tragic story to the world as a victim. We are all pretty damn strange creatures, My wish is that everyone's day of realization comes before too much of the rest of their life has been wasted. If someone says they don;t want to work on the relationship, it is OVER already, pure and freaking simple. There is too much pain and agony involved in the end of a relationship for someone to simply say that they are not sure if they want to work on it. That is simply another way of saying "I am afraid to leave". Sure some come back, but it only happens when the new dream gets snuffed for some reason, and then they are 'settling" until the spark comes again. Find your courage and make a new life. > > 1. I'd say that, if there's not someone in the wings, there's someone > > she wants to pursue and is detaching to give herself permission. [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > Find your courage and make a new life. hmm...much wisdom here. All learned by fire. Thank you for your insight. It is appreciated. [snip] >If someone says they don;t want to work on the relationship, it is OVER >already, pure and freaking simple. There is too much pain and agony involved [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Find your courage and make a new life. This thread (your post in particular) reminds me of a poem I came across last night in a book I'm reading: Nothing in this life or the next will bring you more pain than love. If anyone tells you otherwise, they are liars. Or they are still inexperienced in such matters. Or they have been exquisitely fortunate in their choice of lovers. So far. - Aki-No-Hashi, 1341 Barb > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Nothing in this life or the next will bring you more pain than love. I think love is over-rated. What about being physically and mentally attracted to a special her/him? Whereby the persons ethics are top one for me. Learned a few things over the years. > If anyone tells you otherwise, they are liars. > Or they are still inexperienced in such matters. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Barb > [snip] > >> If someone says they don;t want to work on the relationship, it is OVER >> already, pure and freaking simple. There is too much pain and agony involved >> in the end of a relationship for someone to simply say that they are not >> sure if they want to work on it. That is simply another way of saying "I am >> afraid to leave". Sure some come back, but it only happens when the new >> dream gets snuffed for some reason, and then they are 'settling" until the >> spark comes again. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Nothing in this life or the next will bring you more pain than love. And nothing in this life will bring you more pleasure than love. Therefore, you're screwed, one way or the other. "Can't win for losin..." (this positive note brought to you by the makers of Ovaltine....." > If anyone tells you otherwise, they are liars. > Or they are still inexperienced in such matters. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Barb In my case, I think she wanted to work on it, but wasn't in the right emotional state. She had/has some deep issues that she should have sorted out before we got married. I had/have my own problems, but I don't think they were the root cause of what happened -- I just helped the destructive process along with my bad habits. Eventually, I decided the only way for her to get better was for me to leave. I couldn't stay and fix her b/c I was too much of the problem. Plus, it was destroying me. I also have a strong feeling there was nobody else involved, certainly none on my side. She wasn't/isn't the cheating type -- cheaters are one of her biggest issues. No man-trust. How long to wait on her... man, ain't that the question. I waited until I just couldn't take it anymore. It was like laying on the bottom of the pool, holding your breath waiting for something to happen, until you hit that point where you either surface and get out, or stay there and drown. We all have different thresholds. Hang in there if you have the strength, and don't be afraid to leave if it comes down to it. You gotta be strong and fearless right now. One thing to note: if you start fighting a lot, take a time out and leave, or ask her to leave. You don't want to beat each other up every night. - Saul Nice quote: > If someone says they don;t want to work on the relationship, it is OVER > already, pure and freaking simple. > > 1. I'd say that, if there's not someone in the wings, there's someone > > she wants to pursue and is detaching to give herself permission. [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > Find your courage and make a new life. > In my case, I think she wanted to work on it, but wasn't in the right > emotional state. She had/has some deep issues that she should have > sorted out before we got married. I had/have my own problems, but I > don't think they were the root cause of what happened -- I just helped > the destructive process along with my bad habits. yikes, we're evil twin brothers. > Eventually, I decided the only way for her to get better was for me to > leave. I couldn't stay and fix her b/c I was too much of the problem. > Plus, it was destroying me. and that's part of what i worry about. i have a lot of tenacity in tough situations but everyone has their breaking point. I've been to the edge and stared into the abyss, and it wasn't pretty. I don't think I could leave her because I choose to, but I could leave her because I couldn't live any longer, if that makes sense. > I also have a strong feeling there was > nobody else involved, certainly none on my side. She wasn't/isn't the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > you hit that point where you either surface and get out, or stay there > and drown. We all have different thresholds. amazing. i've used that same 'underwater' analogy repeatedly in the last year, trying to describe to my friends what it feels like to be where i am. So far, 20 years of togetherness, 14 of which have been hard, with the last three being the hardest by far. When I write it out, it looks like a pathetic relationship. When I look back at though, it doesn't so bad. I don't know, maybe I'm just a sucker for punishment. > Hang in there if you have the strength, and don't be afraid to leave if > it comes down to it. I've thought about it, but only for a moment. I can't stand the thought of not seeing the kids every day. > You gotta be strong and fearless right now. > > One thing to note: if you start fighting a lot, take a time out and > leave, or ask her to leave. You don't want to beat each other up every > night. nah, we're good 'quiet fighters'. We can even entertain company and they'd never know we are the verge of divorce. Our fights are long, life-sucking disagreements and rarely blowups. [snip] >nah, we're good 'quiet fighters'. We can even entertain company and >they'd never know we are the verge of divorce. Our fights are long, >life-sucking disagreements and rarely blowups. Wow -- that's a powerful paragraph. It's hard for any of us on the outside to judge, but I do think there is such a thing as a "wrong" marriage. Anne Tyler write eloquently about this in her novel, The Amateur Marriage -- http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345470613/qid=1116022448/sr=1-1/r ef=sr_1_1/102-5226807-3496160?v=glance&s=books I had such a union. And still, leaving it was incredibly painful. I'll also tell you that it's one of the top 5 best things I've ever done in my life (so far). At its worst, life is so much better now for me. Barb > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > is such a thing as a "wrong" marriage. Anne Tyler write eloquently > about this in her novel, The Amateur Marriage -- http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345470613/qid=1116022448/sr=1-1/r ef=sr_1_1/102-5226807-3496160?v=glance&s=books A 'wrong' marriage might describe us (I'll have to read Tyler) when i look at how different we were to start with, and how we have become even more dissimilar in interests, life experiences, goals, dreams, disposition, character...just about everything. > I had such a union. And still, leaving it was incredibly painful. > I'll also tell you that it's one of the top 5 best things I've ever > done in my life (so far). At its worst, life is so much better now > for me. That's what I hear from others - that leaving was so hard, and yet life can be so much better. I don't know anyone who regrets their divorce actually including several close members of my family. Honestly, there are times when I really want to pack it in. But then I think, 'no, we can do this, we can push through one more time'. But I still can't figure out if it's love, or sense of duty, or fear of pain, or religious guilt, or a desire not to disappoint our kids, or fear of losing everything, or disgust at repeating my father's failure, or???? How did you get to the point where you said, 'Today is the day it's done?' [snip] >How did you get to the point where you said, 'Today is the day it's >done?' When it was finally time, it was two words: "That's it." Getting to that point took probably the last 8 or 9 years of my almost 20 year marriage, though. Including a very painful split when our son was about 18 months old. My ex sought help for his addiction, I began attending Alanon meetings and we reconciled. He was also having a long-term affair. It was the third time I learned it wasn't over, 3 weeks after coming back from China, that I said those words aloud - and meant them. My Alanon sponsor told me, many years before that day, that there were actually 3 responses to every decision: yes, no and not right now. And that not right now was a viable option, especially when making an important decision about a relationship. I was in "not right now" every day of those last few years. When that changed -- when I said, "That's it" -- I knew there was no turning back. I knew it was over for me. You just know -- I don't know how else to describe it. If you've not had that feeling yet, then perhaps you're still in "not right now." And that's OK. Barb > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Barb I'm not sure which I'm at. I'm at "not right now" unless she cancels a counseling appointment, then "that's it's, we're done". No more pursuing and trying to make it work. I read your story and I understand why you'd divorce someone with an addiction problem and an affair. What I can't understand why she'd want to divorce me when there are no obvious 'marriage killer' issues in our marriage. It seems what she wants has changed and that, apparently, no longer includes me. And yet, so far, she continues to go for counseling, acknowledging that there are issues to work on. > I'm not sure which I'm at. I'm at "not right now" unless she cancels a > counseling appointment, then "that's it's, we're done". No more [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > longer includes me. And yet, so far, she continues to go for > counseling, acknowledging that there are issues to work on. Rodney - you will drive yourself insane looking for the answer to the question of why she wants to leave. As much as we all want to know what the precise reason is, most often because we want to be able to try and "change" it, to do better, or be better, it is never that simple. "What did I do wrong?" is a universal question in the immediate aftermath of a relationship failure, and far more often than not, there is simply no satisfying answer. It's hard to accept becuase the lack of a precipitating factor we can try and come to tersm with leaves us wondering if something might be innately wrong with us. Well, peple change, they bring unfinished business, or baggage, into relationships and that often gets sorted out well into the relationship without any fault of the partner. It's too bad, but it can just happen. Good luck with the counselling. You are on the right track with the "no pursuing" comment. It will only make matters worse. Commit to working it out, if she is willing to do the same, but no begging, or promises to do better". There must be some mature boudaries around the attempt or things just end up worse. > > I'm not sure which I'm at. I'm at "not right now" unless she cancels a > > counseling appointment, then "that's it's, we're done". No more [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > precise reason is, most often because we want to be able to try and "change" > it, to do better, or be better, it is never that simple. Exactly why I want to know. I'm definitely a problem-solver. Tell me the problem, dear and we'll find a solution. Nope. Guess not. > "What did I do wrong?" is a universal question in the immediate aftermath of > a relationship failure, and far more often than not, there is simply no > satisfying answer. It's hard to accept becuase the lack of a precipitating > factor we can try and come to tersm with leaves us wondering if something > might be innately wrong with us. And isn't there? That drives me nuts already. Most days I'm thinking, 'well mostly I'm a pretty decent guy' and then something flips and I don't know if I am experiencing a moment of pure clarity or I'm just depressed and I think, "What the heck, yah I can see why she doesn't like this and I did forget to do that and I probably shoulda done this." Problem is, I don't know whether it's clarity or the depression talking. I can't figure out why my friends (who now know me better than my wife due to her isolation) think I'm fine and my wife thinks I'm worth divorcing. > Well, peple change, they bring unfinished business, or baggage, into > relationships and that often gets sorted out well into the relationship > without any fault of the partner. Which could be the case. Is it stupid to worry that my friends, coworkers and family are going to think I was abusive (my father was) or cheated on her or something like that? I want her to tell them otherwise, but I don't think that will ever happen. > It's too bad, but it can just happen. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > better". There must be some mature boudaries around the attempt or things > just end up worse. So how do you decide the boundaries? I think if I said I do not promise to do better, she'd say so long, but is that not what we are both seeking from each other, the promise to do better? >>> I'm not sure which I'm at. I'm at "not right now" unless she cancels a >>> counseling appointment, then "that's it's, we're done". No more [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> Rodney - you will drive yourself insane looking for the answer to the >> question of why she wants to leave. As much as we all want to know what the >> precise reason is, most often because we want to be able to try and "change" >> it, to do better, or be better, it is never that simple. > > Exactly why I want to know. I'm definitely a problem-solver. Tell me > the problem, dear and we'll find a solution. Nope. Guess not. Sometimes there are no simple and clearly delineated answers. Or answers that we can ascertain, at least at this point in time. You will drive yourself into further despair if you keep searching for one, but I know you probably will (like most of us did or do, I would expect). Perhaps it would be more accurate to say there may be some answers, but we'll never see them until long after the relationship is over - distance in time brings a much clearer view to these things. But even then, it often isn't a simple thing - a simple answer that really explains it - it is often very complex. >> "What did I do wrong?" is a universal question in the immediate aftermath of >> a relationship failure, and far more often than not, there is simply no >> satisfying answer. It's hard to accept becuase the lack of a precipitating >> factor we can try and come to tersm with leaves us wondering if something >> might be innately wrong with us. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > to do better, she'd say so long, but is that not what we are both > seeking from each other, the promise to do better? > >>> I'm not sure which I'm at. I'm at "not right now" unless she cancels a > >>> counseling appointment, then "that's it's, we're done". No more [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > isn't a simple thing - a simple answer that really explains it - it is > often very complex. So, does it ever work to say, "let's just clear the deck and start over, but let's do it together. i'm never gonna figure it all out and you're not either, so let's take the few good things we've got and build on that." Sounds rather utopian now that I read it again. > >> "What did I do wrong?" is a universal question in the immediate aftermath > of [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > to do better, she'd say so long, but is that not what we are both > > seeking from each other, the promise to do better? > So how do you decide the boundaries? I think if I said I do not promise > to do better, she'd say so long, but is that not what we are both > seeking from each other, the promise to do better? You promise to do all you can to try and understand your role in bringing the relationship to this point and commit to trying whatever it takes to see if you two can overcome all of that. But you essentially "demand" that she commit to doing the same, and to being honest during the process. After that if the games, or uncertainty, continue, you have to make the decision that the rest of your life awaits you and you can't spend it pleading for a second chance. You will find some, or maybe all of the answers you seek in time, but not before there is some distance. When the pain of hanging on exceeds the fear of getting on with a different life, you will begin the journey. I hope there is a renaissance in your marriage, or that your fear of moving on is not too much greater than the pain you are feeling now. >Exactly why I want to know. I'm definitely a problem-solver. Tell me >the problem, dear and we'll find a solution. Nope. Guess not. For you. But you need to find her answer, I asked my ex quite a few times what was her solution. What did she want of me or expect of me. There wasn't an answer that I could do anything with. The relationship was dead. My answer finally was that I had a hold of a rope that wasn't tied to anything. I was trying to hold on to what wasn't there anymore. > >Exactly why I want to know. I'm definitely a problem-solver. Tell me > >the problem, dear and we'll find a solution. Nope. Guess not. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > answer that I could do anything with. The relationship was dead. My answer > finally was that I had a hold of a rope that wasn't tied to anything. Good analogy. Scares me to death. > I was trying to hold on to what wasn't there anymore. Rodney M. said > Claim Guy > > "What did I do wrong?" is a universal question in the immediate [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > my wife due to her isolation) think I'm fine and my wife thinks I'm > worth divorcing. I think you'd be far better off to file this away under the category of "sh.t Happens" and try to move on. Sometimes there just really isn't a good answer to questions such as the ones you are pondering. You know, it seems to be a guy thing that pops up here all the time. It seems like it's usually the men that are paralyzed into inaction while trying to figure out the "ultimate truth" of what happened and why. Just accept the answer as "42" and start thinking about the future. Casey > Rodney M. said > > Claim Guy > > > "What did I do wrong?" is a universal question in the immediate > > > aftermath of a relationship failure, and far more often than not, > > > there is simply no satisfying answer. It's hard to accept becuase > > > the lack of a precipitating factor we can try and come to tersm > > > with leaves us wondering if something might be innately wrong [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > You know, it seems to be a guy thing that pops up here all the time. > It seems like it's usually the men that are paralyzed into inaction > while trying to figure out the "ultimate truth" of what happened and > why. > > Just accept the answer as "42" and start thinking about the future. Not 43, not 41, just 42? >> Rodney M. said >> > Claim Guy [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Not 43, not 41, just 42? Be careful. That's as close to an invitation to start some Monty Python silliness as I need. > >> Rodney M. said > >> > Claim Guy [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > That's as close to an invitation to start some Monty Python > silliness as I need. And I quote for your reading pleasure one of my favorite scriptures: "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shalt be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither countest thou two, excepting that thou then proceedest to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy holy hand grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. (amen)" > And I quote for your reading pleasure one of my favorite scriptures: > "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy holy hand grenade of Antioch > towards thy foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. (amen)" MOM!!!! He started it!!!!! (cue the rabbit) Run AWAY!!!!!!!! > > And I quote for your reading pleasure one of my favorite scriptures: > > "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Run AWAY!!!!!!!! And as you are running away, ponder this thought for the day: Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. >> > And I quote for your reading pleasure one of my favorite > scriptures: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of > government. 'elp, 'elp,...I'm being repressed. >>>>And I quote for your reading pleasure one of my favorite >>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > 'elp, 'elp,...I'm being repressed. Come see the violence inherent in the system!!!! Tracey Tracey said > > "Rodney M." <rod444rod@hotmail.com> wrote in message > >>>"Rodney M." <rod444rod@hotmail.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Come see the violence inherent in the system!!!! Bloody peasant! Casey > Tracey said > > > "Rodney M." <rod444rod@hotmail.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Bloody peasant! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you? >> Tracey said >> > > "Rodney M." <rod444rod@hotmail.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about. Did > you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you? ...and now, for something completely different,... http://www.rathergood.com/vines/ > >> Tracey said > >> > > "Rodney M." <rod444rod@hotmail.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > http://www.rathergood.com/vines/ Proving conclusively that some animators have *way* too much time on their hands :) > Tracey said > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Casey peasanta are revolting ? bogey >>>And I quote for your reading pleasure one of my favorite > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of > government. maybe not but its fun tho. bogey > Rodney M. said > > Claim Guy > > > "What did I do wrong?" is a universal question in the immediate > > > aftermath of a relationship failure, and far more often than not, > > > there is simply no satisfying answer. It's hard to accept becuase > > > the lack of a precipitating factor we can try and come to tersm > > > with leaves us wondering if something might be innately wrong [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > You know, it seems to be a guy thing that pops up here all the time. > It seems like it's usually the men that are paralyzed into inaction > while trying to figure out the "ultimate truth" of what happened and > why. > > Just accept the answer as "42" and start thinking about the future. My first reply was a smartass answer, but really, your post makes a lot of sense. I like the 42 answer. I'll remember that. Rodney M. said > > It seems like it's usually the men that are paralyzed into inaction > > while trying to figure out the "ultimate truth" of what happened and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > My first reply was a smartass answer, but really, your post makes a lot > of sense. I like the 42 answer. I'll remember that. I'm assuming you probably know where that came from, but just in case you're not familiar with The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", that was the "Answer for Life, The Universe and Everything". http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchhikers/guide/answer.shtml Casey > Rodney M. said > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I'm assuming you probably know where that came from, but just in case > you're not familiar with The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", that > was the "Answer for Life, The Universe and Everything". > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchhikers/guide/answer.shtml Did not know that. I read the first chapter of the book as a kid and then I think I thought it was too weird and just gave up :) Guess I'll have to go see the movie and see what I missed. >>>"What did I do wrong?" is a universal question in the immediate >>>aftermath of a relationship failure, and far more often than not, But the question "what did I do wrong" is predicated on an assumption of continuity - I expected this state would go on for ever and it didn't therefore I must have done something wrong. This is a nonsensical question that leads directly to the paradoxes of life. It leads directly to some kind of religion because it requires someone to judge what is right and wrong (a super-entity of some kind). And in leading there it misses the real point of religion which is in faith and process not in judgement. You did nothing wrong (that is not a judgement, its a universal truth). Look to the process and try to be kind to yourself and others. This is the only thing worth doing. Its rewards are in itself. bogey >Rodney - you will drive yourself insane looking for the answer to the >question of why she wants to leave. As much as we all want to know what the >precise reason is, most often because we want to be able to try and "change" >it, to do better, or be better, it is never that simple. And he will go insane if he doesn't find the answer, It wasn't until I found my "answer" that I could let go. There's needs to be some sort of closure. > >Rodney - you will drive yourself insane looking for the answer to the > >question of why she wants to leave. As much as we all want to know what the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And he will go insane if he doesn't find the answer, It wasn't until I found > my "answer" that I could let go. There's needs to be some sort of closure. I think that's what I want. I want to know the answer and then maybe finally I can let go, knowing that it's not a solvable equation. But if the equation remains undefined, how the heck do I know it's not solvable? Either way, I want that closure so I don't have to go nuts for the rest of my life obsessing about what didn't work. Even now, I lie awake at night trying to figure out electrical or mechanical problems for work. That takes part of my brain. The rest is running full tilt trying to solve "us" issues all day and night. And my wife says she rarely thinks about it. Drives me nuts. I want to figure it out because if we don't work it out, I don't want to do it twice. That would be the height of stupidity. > And my wife says she rarely thinks about it. Drives me nuts. Have you considered why she isn't spending much time thinking about it? If you aren't looking for an answer, there is nothing to think about. > I want to figure it out because if we don't work it out, I don't want > to do it twice. That would be the height of stupidity. Just because it happened once does not mean it will happen again. You aren't someone with a bad marriage gene that pops out after X years and causes you to lose the love of your partner for no discernible reason. You sound like a technical person so you must realize that. No matter how much effort you put into it, you are still going to be left with at least one unknown variable - her. You control you, and not her. Das a fac, Jack! This is where the time an distance factors come in. You will realize that there does not have to be a reason ("42" works for me to, though), you are not a bad husband, and if you are very lucky and spend some time alone, you will come to some deeper understanding of what your role was in the relationship breakdown and what you can CHOOSE to do differently in the future. I get worried for people who only speak about their loser "bitch" of a wife, or "a.shole" of a husband" who did everything wrong and ruined their life by leaving. They are not going to have much luck in their next relationship if they refuse to see that there are two sides to every story - three, actually - yours, mine, and the truth. There are many stories in here from those of us who did take the time to try and understand ourselves better and who came out way ahead - either in a subsequent relationship, or alone if that is your choice. >I think that's what I want. I want to know the answer and then maybe >finally I can let go, knowing that it's not a solvable equation. But if >the equation remains undefined, how the heck do I know it's not >solvable? Either way, I want that closure so I don't have to go nuts If she doesn't think its solvable, then it isn't. All you can do is what you can do. If that isn't enough, then its beyond what you can do. There were a few issues that I thought would end the strife between my ex and I. Her mother was collecting hearsay from various sources, mixing it up, and then give it to my ex as if it were gospel. When we figured out how the rumour mill was working, I thought it would get put to rest. It didn't. IMHO, my ex will accept no resposibility for anything. Its always somebody else's fault. If there is 1 person out of a 100 who doesn't do something, that 1 person is all she needs not to do it herself. The 99 who do is immaterial. You can't find excuses that way. She also can't live without pity. You can't get people to have pity for you if you are working to improve yourself. My ex insisted that we go to a marriage counselor. So we went for about 3 years. When the marriage counselor expected my ex to uphold her part, she got too busy to go anymore. In the beginning, it was all my fault. None of it was hers. And my ex will tell you that it was my idea for her to quit going. Even though she told me that I should keep going. What is the sound of one hand clapping? Her memory of things don't coincide with how I remember it. Its not a matter of small details. Its a total fabrication that absolves her of everything. >Even now, I >lie awake at night trying to figure out electrical or mechanical >problems for work. That takes part of my brain. The rest is running >full tilt trying to solve "us" issues all day and night. And my wife >says she rarely thinks about it. Drives me nuts. Man, that is me, too. I usually go to bed when I put the kids to bed, between 9pm and 9:30, and if I'm lucky I can get to sleep and then sleep through the night. Most nights that doesn't happen - either I just lie there for a couple of hours unable to sleep, or else I sleep only a couple of hours and then wake up and can't get back to sleep. Either way I finally get tired of my brain spinning uselessly through the same thoughts, so I get up and do something utterly useless like re-reading old books, surfing the web aimlessly, or reading newsgroups for hours. Some nights I can do some cleaning or wash dishes or laundry, but usually if I'm having trouble sleeping I'm too depressed to make good use of the time. And my wife just acts like this is all no big deal to her. >I want to figure it out because if we don't work it out, I don't want >to do it twice. That would be the height of stupidity. I did a lot of reading at divorceinfo.com a few nights ago, and one of the articles suggested that as an argument to persuade the other spouse to do counselling - "Even if you don't want me anymore, we need to figure out what went wrong so we can avoid repeating the problems in new relationships" or something like that. BP > >Even now, I > >lie awake at night trying to figure out electrical or mechanical [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > laundry, but usually if I'm having trouble sleeping I'm too depressed > to make good use of the time. Yeah, I regressed into being an addicted video gamer for about a month. I bought an Xbox and Halo II. Never played a first person shooter game in my life 'cause I disagreed with the gory violence, but on the most frustrating days in our lives, there is nothing more satisfying than blowing the crap out of some ugly alien accompanied with an earth shattering explosion on my cranked up sound system. Most kids play it for months, but I finished the entire game in three weeks. My wife thought it was pathetic. My kid's brag about it and their schoolmates think I'm cool (go figure?) One day my daughter asked why I spent so much time gaming and I said, "Cause it beats drinking, honey." :) > And my wife just acts like this is all no big deal to her. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to figure out what went wrong so we can avoid repeating the problems > in new relationships" or something like that. Makes sense. >One day my daughter asked why I spent so >much time gaming and I said, "Cause it beats drinking, honey." :) LOL! Yeah, that's it, exactly. It is something to stun my brain to help me stop thinking about what is driving me crazy. Hmm, maybe I ought to hunt up the CDs to reinstall Counter-Stike for some target practice on terrorist 'bots. BP > >One day my daughter asked why I spent so > >much time gaming and I said, "Cause it beats drinking, honey." :) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ought to hunt up the CDs to reinstall Counter-Stike for some target > practice on terrorist 'bots. Not to sound like a lunatic, but if you haven't tried Halo 2, it's worth renting the xbox just to give it a try. It's so realistic on a big screen/big sound system that there were nights I couldn't sleep right away, 'cause I actually scared myself playing the stupid game :) WAY cool! >>>One day my daughter asked why I spent so >>>much time gaming and I said, "Cause it beats drinking, honey." :) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > right away, 'cause I actually scared myself playing the stupid game :) > WAY cool! I'm curious by what standards one determines that a game--involving the mass-a-creeing of aliens using all manner of "out of this world" weaponry--is "realistic." Real World: get up, make coffee, feed kids breakfast, get kids ready for school, send kids to school, go to work, work work work, come home, walk dog, make dinner, etc. etc. etc. UnReal World: don body armor, select badass cyber cannon, go out and destroy aliens. <just giving you a hard time! it's my job!> >>>>One day my daughter asked why I spent so >>>>much time gaming and I said, "Cause it beats drinking, honey." :) [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > mass-a-creeing of aliens using all manner of "out of this world" > weaponry--is "realistic." Um,...uhhhh,... > Real World: get up, make coffee, feed kids breakfast, get kids ready for > school, send kids to school, go to work, work work work, come home, walk > dog, make dinner, etc. etc. etc. Sims? > UnReal World: don body armor, select badass cyber cannon, go out and > destroy aliens. > > <just giving you a hard time! it's my job!> > DrLith wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > UnReal World: don body armor, select badass cyber cannon, go out and > destroy aliens. Depends what planet you live on, Dr. Lith. (and *you* know what a cyber cannon is. Naughty naughty closet gamer.) > (and *you* know what a cyber cannon is. Naughty naughty closet gamer.) Actually, I just made that up! Hehehe. Games are so predictable. Kids got a PS2 for Christmas this year, I played LOTRs a couple of times but don't have enough free time as it is, and would rather spend what little I do doing something else. I did like the "sheep cannon" thing they had on that one ad for that one game, though! >> (and *you* know what a cyber cannon is. Naughty naughty closet >> gamer.) > > Actually, I just made that up! Hehehe. Games are so predictable. Kids > got a PS2 for Christmas this year, Have they discovered DDR yet? My DD and her friends LOVE it.. (DDR stands for "dance, dance revolution".).. you have a floor pad with nine squares and they put the cd in and chose a song, then you have to follow the directions on the screen to 'dance' through using the arrows on the pad on the floor. Great way to get some energy out on a rainy afternoon. (Though I'd advise you to have it somewhere not too close, as the music, well.. it sucks.. technobeat kind of 'music') Seems to be a hit with both boys and girls, younger and older. DD and her friends all gather at her BF's house to play, as his family has a 60in TV in and two sets of pads, so they can compete against each other.  SignatureCal~ calliope 123 at gmail dot com > I want to figure it out because if we don't work it out, I don't want > to do it twice. That would be the height of stupidity. Maybe deep in your heart you also fret that you might end up with someone even worse than your spouse. Someone who abuses you or cheats on you, and you will take it because you apparently have no limits of your own? Your wife is not outwardly and obviously terrible to you. Instead, she treads all over your boundaries in a more subtle manner every day, testing you to find if you have a limit in there somewhere.... anywhere. The secret to your happiness - whether in this marriage or the next - is to expect more for yourself, and to find those limits and hold them up. jen > I read your story and I understand why you'd divorce someone with an > addiction problem and an affair. What I can't understand why she'd want > to divorce me when there are no obvious 'marriage killer' issues in our > marriage. It seems what she wants has changed and that, apparently, no > longer includes me. And yet, so far, she continues to go for > counseling, acknowledging that there are issues to work on. If you've allowed your marriage to go on for many years without proper "maintenance," there may be so many little things broken in the relationship that she doesn't feel it's worth it to try to fix it all. If you're faced with the challenge of doing major repair work and remodelling to an old house that maybe never really was the house you wanted in the first place and holds a lot of bad memories, it may be tempting just to move out and start fresh. Even if things aren't so bad that the building needs to be "condemned" as completely uninhabitable. I'm not saying that's the right thing to do--our commitment to a marriage should be more durable than our commitment to a piece of property. But I think that's how a lot of people look at it after years of suffering through a mediocre marriage. [snip] >I'm not sure which I'm at. I'm at "not right now" unless she cancels a >counseling appointment, then "that's it's, we're done". No more [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >longer includes me. And yet, so far, she continues to go for >counseling, acknowledging that there are issues to work on. It's not always cause and effect. Even in my marriage. Who knows what keeps people together, and what drives them apart? I found "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work" by Dr. John Gottman a good read. One of his surprising findings was that much about what kept 2 people together had little relation to common wisdom. Might be worth a read. I live in 100 year old house in a city where people are fleeing to the exurbs to build big, new homes that have everything the way they want them, right from the start. In a lot of ways, it's easier to build than to renovate. Perhaps the ease with which we approach so many areas of our lives today has also leaked into the way we approach relationships. When it stops working, when it no longer fits, we are more quick to reach a place where it makes more sense to get rid of it rather than fix it. Barb > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Barb I'm not so sure I would classify that (or the move to the suburbs, for that matter), progress. In fact, I'd call them both regress, come to think of it. > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > It's not always cause and effect. Even in my marriage. Who knows > what keeps people together, and what drives them apart? Good question. Why have we stayed together when for all intents and purposes this has been a dysfunctional non-marriage for years? I think because we both have a tiny bit of *hope*. Without hope, it's impossible. > I found "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work" by Dr. John > Gottman a good read. One of his surprising findings was that much [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > stops working, when it no longer fits, we are more quick to reach a > place where it makes more sense to get rid of it rather than fix it. And that's totally what i struggle with. Do I think it would be easier to start over with another woman. Absolutely! Some days I long for that - to actually have someone who looks forward to spending time with me. But do I think it would be *right* to start over with another woman? Can't so I do. My dutifully ingrained religious training and strong conscience won't let me off easy and I think there are only a few valid reasons for divorce (like adultery) and we haven't committed any of them. It's just death by a thousand cuts. >And that's totally what i struggle with. Do I think it would be easier >to start over with another woman. Absolutely! Some days I long for that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >reasons for divorce (like adultery) and we haven't committed any of >them. It's just death by a thousand cuts. That's me, too. When we got married we made promises to God and to each other. I take those commitments seriously. Also, we have children. The past year (since she left) has been very hard on the kids. I think they would be much better off with our family living all together in one home, rather than the current situation of living with me and visiting one or two nights per week with their mother. BP > I read your story and I understand why you'd divorce someone with an > addiction problem and an affair. What I can't understand why she'd want > to divorce me when there are no obvious 'marriage killer' issues in our > marriage. Hi, well to my knowledge (yea right) she's not cheating on me.... but she does have a serious drug problem... I can't bring a bottle home that she doesn't finish that night... I bring home a fifth, have 2 drinks, she finishes it, I bring home a quart, I have 2 drinks, she finishes it... so I never bring home more than a pint. when we moved in together I had an extensive liqueur collection (various fruit based eau de vie, brandies, cognacs, armagnacs, etc... no more... she's chugged them all... even throwing away a leather cased fancy little flask to hide the evidence. this morning I got mad because I found she'd stolen half a dozen valium out of my meds bottle... she's mad (still) because I checked to see what else she might have stolen. but she does (or is supposed to) take Zoloft... but for example when she goes on a binge like this she doesn't take the zoloft... which makes it worse. but... when she's not drinking excessively and taking her meds she's a nice person to be with.... she managed to hide the depths of her manic depressive tendencies while we were dating... I'd call to chat and the kids would just say "she's asleep" (at 8pm) and stuff like that. SignatureLeinad Pepperbox & Derringer Parts Sets http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7157942072 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7158423459 > 3. I've talked to several guys who said that they wished that they had > the guts to end it when it was obvious that it was over, but stayed, > hoping that she'd come to her senses, and as a result, spent several > years in misery. This may be the road on which you are embarking. So what about the wife who is just so emotionally damaged that she cannot truly act as a wife. Like a spouse who has a car accident and ends up paralyzed? Would you leave that person because they couldn't hug you or have sex with you? "Rodney M." <rod444rod@hotmail.com> wrote:> > So what about the wife who is just so emotionally damaged that > she cannot truly act as a wife. Like a spouse who has a car accident > and ends up paralyzed? Would you leave that person because they > couldn't hug you or have sex with you? Not the same thing, IMO. In the latter case, a physical disability does not preclude genuine love and emotional intimacy, and there are other ways for the parties to express physical affection. OTOH, the former situation precludes the natural love and affection which is supposed to be present in a marital relationship. Emotional scars can also make a person impossible to live with and damage the mental health of their partner. So, IMO, it would depend entirely on whether, the wife was making a sincere effort to overcome her issues and there was reason to believe that conditions would improve, as opposed to a mere hope with no actual progress. =R= > "Rodney M." <rod444rod@hotmail.com> wrote:> > > So what about the wife who is just so emotionally damaged that [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > and there was reason to believe that conditions would improve, as > opposed to a mere hope with no actual progress. =R= And there's my dilemma I guess. I think she is making an effort to improve, which is admirable, but do I have reason to believe that conditions will improve? I'm relying on the counsellor's insight on that. If he says, this isn't going anywhere, it's time to pack it in. Then again, at $100/hr, what counsellor wants to say this isn't working? > And there's my dilemma I guess. I think she is making an effort to > improve, which is admirable, but do I have reason to believe that > conditions will improve? I'm relying on the counselor's insight on > that. If he says, this isn't going anywhere, it's time to pack it in. > > Then again, at $100/hr, what counselor wants to say this isn't working? exactly, small steps means more visits at $100 a pop. if she don't make you happy, then find someone that does. be happy. > .... at $100/hr, what counsellor wants to say this isn't working? After 6 months of fruitless marriage counseling, our therapist said to me, "Well, she never wanted to be here in the first place." I felt like asking for my money back. Ironically, about 8 months later, I moved into a new GF's house that was only a block from his. We never spoke, but I'm sure he recognized me. =R= > > .... at $100/hr, what counsellor wants to say this isn't working? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > moved into a new GF's house that was only a block from his. We > never spoke, but I'm sure he recognized me. =R= Yeah, that would be a kick in the head. I feel like I'm going to hear the same thing. Yesterday my wife, through our counselor, asked me if I was in this for the 'long haul' cause we haven't started the hard part yet. I was disgusted, because it's me that's pushed for the counselling for years while waiting for her to make up her mind, and it's my wife that has always bailed out on past counselling experiences. She wants me to 'guarantee' that I will go through with it no matter what happens before she will commit to the process. That makes me wonder what kind of revelations i'm about to hear that I don't know about. I am in it for the long haul barring two things; I get so depressed that I don't think I will survive mentally or after all this time and all this pain, i find out she's actually been cheating on me. I wouldn't accept that betrayal at this point. Other than that I said let's go. Still waiting to hear her reply. > And there's my dilemma I guess. I think she is making an effort to > improve, which is admirable, but do I have reason to believe that > conditions will improve? Try changing the above sentence to read "Do I have reason to EXPECT that conditions will improve" and you'll be thinking in the right direction. And the answer is yes, you have every right to expect that she will treat you better, and if not, that you are worthy of better treatment from a life-mate. You have this passivity about your boundaries, as if you rely completely on others to maintain them for you. They are your boundaries, so they are yours to enforce. Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like your wife is not the only one that needs improvement. Your own issues are fairly common though. I think counseling for yourself would be a good idea, to work on your own boundary issues. There are two people in this relationship and it's not all about fixing one of them. Don't wait around for her to improve enough to stop treading on your boundaries all on her own. You need to learn how to uphold them yourself, and as you practice that, you may see that her own self-improvement goes a lot faster. If you and your wife decide to hang in a little longer, you might try coming over to alt.support.marriage for support in the process. jen > Rodney M. said > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I guess it boils down to whether you're willing to wait forever. She > may willing to live with things the way they are. You have to ask > yourself ... are you? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and women are caught completely offguard when they find out their > spouse has been cheating. I've asked her point blank and unless she's the best liar in the world, I think she's being honest that there isn't someone else. But who knows. > > That's what I'll try to do I guess. I'm just trying to figure out if > > I'm a bloody fool to keep trying. I've never known another woman, i've [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Maybe you've waited long enough? If she has damage that's not > marriage-related, don't kid yourself into thinking you can fix it. I don't think I can, but I'm trusting the counsellor she's started seeing, can. > Don't stay with her just because you've never known another woman. > That is too much like paralysis from fear of the unknown. Interesting. You're the second person to say that to me today. > Yah, I AM listening. The problem is the other way around. I don't want > a divorce and I'm the one who has been pushing for counselling, talking > it out, self-help books, marriage retreats, etc. She says she wants to > work it out, sort of half heartedly, but I'm trying to figure out if > she's already made up her mind but is just waiting to tell me. My wife was the same way. Saying she wanted to save the marriage, but I didn't see any action (not that there wasn't any, I just couldn't see it). This may be too early in my process to suggest this, but I am came back from a weekend at Retrouvaille last night. While I was the one who suggested we go, recent events had led me to believe that it was just to say we had done it. Sort of like this: Counseling? Check. Weekend Retreat. Check. Ok, nothing worked, let's get a divorce. I was convinced I would be moving out TODAY. She told me that she felt the same way. That I would move out this week. After the weekend, nobody is moving (at least not anytime soon). While I am still on the high from the weekend, I know we have much work to do but we are both determined to do the work necessary to make our marriage work. It is a very powerful experience. Friday night everyone was arms-crossed, looking angry and depressed. By Sunday morning couples were holding hands, resting heads on spouses shoulders, and basically looking like a room full of newlyweds. I am sure some of this feeling will fade and the rest will require hard work to maintain, but it will be well worth it. If you want to save your marriage, I highly recommend you try to convince your wife to attend a weekend. Their website is www.retrouvaille.org. It isn't too expensive, about the amount you would pay for 3-4 hours of a marriage counselor. It is a full weekend, followed up by 6 nightime sessions and then they have optional group meetings for as long as you want to go. If you go, be sure you are both rested. It can be emotionally grueling and they work from 8AM to 10PM or so. > > Yah, I AM listening. The problem is the other way around. I don't > want [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > rested. It can be emotionally grueling and they work from 8AM to 10PM > or so. I've heard nothing but good things about Retrouvaille. I heard about it several months ago and got passionate about convincing her it could help us. Her reply was that she would go to the first session but she wouldn't do the followup sessions (which are mandatory) because it was hosted in a town 3 hours away and she didn't want to do the drive. (whoa. can you say 'deflated'?) But you know what, I'm gonna try again. I've got nothing to lose at this point but my sanity. Thanks. Take her up on her offer. I know both spouses need to talk to the organizer and tell them that they will do the follow up sessions. Agree with your wife that if she agrees to go through with it and plan to go to all the sessions that if she goes to the weekend and sees no value to the follow up sessions that you will quit. It is not as if they can throw you in jail for not going. You will have already paid. My guess is that if there is anything worth saving you both will know it after the weekend is over and she will want to go to the sessions. Again, I reiterate that it can be very powerful. There were questions and statements that made me literally gasp out loud for breath. I was sure we were doomed prior to going. Like I said, I had already made plans to move out tonight. I had a friend call me this morning to see if I was going to stay at his place for the next few days until I got my affairs in order. Now, if I was a betting man, I'd say we have about a 70% chance to make it for a fairly long term. I don't know if it was the right thing to do, but we actually made love Sunday morning at the Retrouvaille weekend for the first time in quite some time. She said she needed to feel closer to me so she initiated it. This was after months of coldness, distance, and lack of emotion. It blew me away. I realize this may be to much information, but I thought it important for you to understand the depth of emotion that Retrouvaille tapped. Good luck to you. > Take her up on her offer. I know both spouses need to talk to the > organizer and tell them that they will do the follow up sessions. Agree [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > realize this may be to much information, but I thought it important for > you to understand the depth of emotion that Retrouvaille tapped. No, not too much information, no,that's helpful. That's why I was interested in Retrouvaille in the first place - it sounds like one of the only programs that can pull "mostly likely to divorce" marriages out of the pit. Actually after reading your previous post I went back and suggested Retrouvaille to my wife again. This time there is one in my home town, but not for awhile. She said, "That's months from now. We'll see." Same as before - no sense that she feels any urge to work on things. I'd be willing to fly to a session starting this weekend, but then there's the followup issue again. Very, very frustrating. Very. I'm glad you feel new hope. I think the problem is our 'coldness' is already into years long and the things she's bitter about have festered for so long, I'm not sure what it's gonna take to bring a little warmth back into this relationship. My gut feeling, after going almost this low once before in our marriage, is that counselling is going to be long, slow, painful but in the end, futile. > > Take her up on her offer. I know both spouses need to talk to the > > organizer and tell them that they will do the follow up sessions. [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > low once before in our marriage, is that counselling is going to be > long, slow, painful but in the end, futile. I'll probably over-quote my brother at some point, so stop me if I say it too often, but he really did offer some good insights to me along the way... Bro said at one point, "I think you wife f.cking hates you." Not in a beat-em-up sense, more of a dont-touch-me hatred. She had the same we'll-resolve-this-at-some-point attitude, and a vague and dismal lets-wait-and-see outlook on how to fix the marriage. She even said at one point, "I felt forced into marrying you by my sister. I'm not sure I ever loved you." Her sister set us up and doted on me. After we fell out, my ex went two years without telling me she loved me. I think bro was right again -- she hates me. Don't tell him I said that, he'll never let me forget it ;) I mention this because you need to consider that possibility with yours. I don't mean to sound so depressing... - Saul > > > Take her up on her offer. I know both spouses need to talk to the > > > organizer and tell them that they will do the follow up sessions. [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > I mention this because you need to consider that possibility with > yours. I don't mean to sound so depressing... Not depressing. At least not today. I've already gone there in my mind several times. in the past, every time my wife was angry, I could tell that deep down she wasn't going to stay that way. But she has said she doesn't care about me *at all* several times now. I keep waiting for that tiny hint of a smile or a change of tone in her voice that says "but not really" and it's not there anymore. That really blows me away. So maybe your bro can print me a "My wife fuckin' hates me" t-shirt and I can start a club? > So maybe your bro can print me a "My wife fuckin' hates me" t-shirt and > I can start a club? "She Hates Me" Puddle of Mudd Met a girl, thought she was grand fell in love, found out first hand went well for a week or two then it all came unglued in a trapped trip I can't grip never thought I'd be the one who'd slip then I started to realize I was living one big lie She f.cking hates me trust she f.cking hates me la la la love I tried too hard and she tore my feelings like I had none and ripped them away She was queen for about an hour after that sh.t got sour she took all I ever had no sign of guilt no feeling of bad, no In a trapped trip I can't grip never thought i'd be the one who'd slip then I started to realize I was living one big lie [Chorus] that's my story, as you see learned my lesson and so did she now it's over and i'm glad 'cause i'm a fool for all i've said [Chorus] la la la la la la la la la love Trust la la la la la la la la la love Trust and she tore my feelings like I had none she f.cking hates me ---------------- Sing the chorus real loud. Thank you YB! I hear that chorus all the time! lmao! And as funny as it sounds, it always makes me feel **better** b/c the song is so hilarious. I saw these guys play this live... it really touched me ;) Rodney, hang in there bro. Remember just b/c you read it online doesn't mean it's true. This is a sounding board for your own introspections, not an answer board. - Saul ps. My cousin and I have a t-shirt list going that we've been working on for about two years. I'll add this shirt -- it fits right in! > > So maybe your bro can print me a "My wife fuckin' hates me" t-shirt and > > I can start a club? [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Sing the chorus real loud. > Rodney, hang in there bro. Remember just b/c you read it online doesn't > mean it's true. This is a sounding board for your own introspections, > not an answer board. Yah, I know. It's just good to find somewhere to commiserate. Especially on the days when my brain is running well into overdrive on this stuff. I keep dreaming about the day when I can actually concentrate on work alone, or just the kids or maybe the smell of grass after the rain and not just "us, us, us". > ps. My cousin and I have a t-shirt list going that we've been working > on for about two years. I'll add this shirt -- it fits right in! Cool. If it becomes a best seller I get 50% of your gross. Or an extra large pizza. > Yah, I know. It's just good to find somewhere to commiserate. > Especially on the days when my brain is running well into overdrive on > this stuff. I keep dreaming about the day when I can actually > concentrate on work alone, or just the kids or maybe the smell of grass > after the rain and not just "us, us, us". Now is a good day to stop dreaming and do it. You don't need to be divorced in order to stop thinking us, us, us and start thinking "what about me for a change?" It sounds like you don't think about yourself nearly enough. Start doing it, and maybe it'll prompt a positive shift in your relationship dynamic? jen > > So maybe your bro can print me a "My wife fuckin' hates me" t-shirt and > > I can start a club? [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > she f.cking hates me > ---------------- Hmmm...my new favorite band. > Sing the chorus real loud. >"She Hates Me" >Puddle of Mudd Maybe we outta setup a song list for this kinda thing. Queensryche - I Don't Believe In Love Black Sabbath - Paranoid Blue Oyster Cult - Veteran of the Psychic Wars Foreigner - I Want to Know What Love Is Neil Diamond - Solitary Man R.E.M. - Losing My Religion R.E.M. - Bang and Blame Simon and Garfunkel - I Am A Rock Cake - Going the Distance Depeche Mode - It Doesn't Matter Two Depeche Mode - Love In Itself Tina Turner - What's Love Got To Do With It maybe not... > No, not too much information, no,that's helpful. That's why I was > interested in Retrouvaille in the first place - it sounds like one of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > willing to fly to a session starting this weekend, but then there's the > followup issue again. Very, very frustrating. Very. As Dr Phil says, you are "in the game" but your wife is not. She must get in the game with you. You can't force her to get in the game - that's up to her. You can, however, hold her and yourself up to a higher standard. Instead of being willing to drop everything and run off to a retrouvaille weekend, you can tell her, "I'd like to give this a shot, but it'll be a complete waste of time if you're not in the game with me." > I'm glad you feel new hope. I think the problem is our 'coldness' is > already into years long and the things she's bitter about have festered > for so long, I'm not sure what it's gonna take to bring a little warmth > back into this relationship. My gut feeling, after going almost this > low once before in our marriage, is that counselling is going to be > long, slow, painful but in the end, futile. Oftentimes counseling fails because one partner is not fully in the game, and/or the counseling is concentrating on the wrong problems that need fixing. Depending on how it goes, don't give up on counseling completely just yet. But I wouldn't waste any more money on it until you know she's in it with you, and you both have identified and agreed upon very specific issues that need solving. Counseling for you alone would not hurt. jen > > No, not too much information, no,that's helpful. That's why I was > > interested in Retrouvaille in the first place - it sounds like one of [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > a shot, but it'll be a complete waste of time if you're not in the game > with me." And that's the issue we will face this next session. We ended last time with that discussion and it was unresolved. In discussions since it appears unchanged. I am, indeed, "in the game" but my wife is hesitating. > > I'm glad you feel new hope. I think the problem is our 'coldness' is > > already into years long and the things she's bitter about have [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > you know she's in it with you, and you both have identified and agreed > upon very specific issues that need solving. I agree. And I am trying to clarify that with the counselor. But, as usual, my wife is a moving target. As soon as we get down to identifying issues, she starts to bail out. But this time she has made a point of staying in for some reason. She says she's not ready to leave the marriage yet. The cynical part of me thinks she's waiting for me to make more money before the divorce, the optimistic side says she actually has a pinch of hope. > Counseling for you alone would not hurt. Already booked. > I've heard nothing but good things about Retrouvaille. I heard about it > several months ago and got passionate about convincing her it could [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (whoa. can you say 'deflated'?) But you know what, I'm gonna try again. > I've got nothing to lose at this point but my sanity. Thanks. Try this: "I'm reaching my limit here. Every time I come up with a potentially productive idea, you have objections to it and appear to be lukewarm. It seems it would be pure insanity of me to waste another dime on counseling, or another hour on obsessing over us, us, us. You know that I am willing to do whatever it takes to save this marriage, as I've demonstrated that over and over. But I don't have any evidence that you're willing to do that. Perhaps we need to step back for awhile and think about that. If you decide that you're unwilling, then I need to decide whether I should continue to stay in this marriage. How much time do you need to make your decision, because I have too much self-respect to hang on indefinetly with a spouse who's chronically indecisive." jen : I'm new here. Can anyone help with the 'signs' that your wife is : probably going to file for divorce (even if she says that's not what : she's thinking). : I think I saw a post about this but I can't find it now. One of the : items I remember was "She quits nagging about things that she's been : bugging you about for years" (not because she's satisfied but because : she's given up on you) and hints like that. : Thanks, any help is appreciated. Mine started taking inventory of jointly held material posessions in the home. b. <barry@psyber.com> wrote... > : I'm new here. Can anyone help with the 'signs' that your wife is > : probably going to file for divorce (even if she says that's not what > : she's thinking). > Mine started taking inventory of jointly held material posessions in > the home. Mine decided that she wanted to be a bush-pilot in Alaska (she was a micro-biologist). She started flight lessons and spent all of her spare time hanging with the guys on the flight line. I passed it off at the time as just another passing fancy. She later said that it was a metaphor for wanting to fly away from me. I discovered that the ol'head-in-the-sand approach does not lead to positive results. It may not make any difference, but I suggest that you get down to brass tacks and have-it-out. Do your best to open a channel of communication about what's wrong, or you will suffer the pain of thousand little cuts. You may get a reply that you do not want to hear, but IMO, its better sooner than later. =R= > <barry@psyber.com> wrote... > > : I'm new here. Can anyone help with the 'signs' that your wife is [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > the pain of thousand little cuts. You may get a reply that you do not > want to hear, but IMO, its better sooner than later. =R= That helps. I'm generally not afraid of confrontation but it's tempting to do the head in the sand thing 'cause I'm not sure I can handle much more stress. She's not much of a 'heart' communicator, and that's a great part of why we're in this bind. > >I'm new here. Can anyone help with the 'signs' that your wife is > >probably going to file for divorce (even if she says that's not what > >she's thinking). hint #1 : all your money disappears. like life savings or 401k. - >hint #1 : all your money disappears. like life savings or 401k. Hey, that's what my ex did. The savings account was suddenly empty except for $200, and my credit card was canceled without my knowing it. It's so nice to feel trusted... ;-P > >hint #1 : all your money disappears. like life savings or 401k. > > Hey, that's what my ex did. The savings account was suddenly empty except > for $200, and my credit card was canceled without my knowing it. > It's so nice to feel trusted... ;-P Guess that's why we've always had seperate accts. and seperate credit cards. Must not have trusted each other from day one. ;-P She could clean me out of our joint savings I guess, but I'm not sure what she'd do with the 17 cents. Hi, does taking all (but 1) valium in your pill bottle count? I'm a chronic pain patient and have long ago started leaving my main "stash" of meds at work (I happen to work in a VERY secure area of a medical complex) and only bringing home a small bottle of meds as needed... but for the weekend that's 3 times as much. this morning after deciding I -had- to take a muscle relaxer and going for the pill bottle I found the valium missing. she's an alcoholic (has admitted it several times, says she wants counceling, but when it comes time to setup the appointment she doesn't need any F*CKIN' COUNCELING)... mother died of an alcohol OD (chugged a bottle of everclear) she's prescribed zoloft... hasn't taken it today... takes it about 2/3 the time. I -wish- she would just pack up, take her kids (from 2nd husband who doesn't pay child support and she expects me to support... oh yea she decided to quit her job... actually to make it harder to get a new job she chose to get fired... walked into work and picks a fight with a senior employee... told me she was going to do it the night before (I suggested she not do it)) and leave. >>>I'm new here. Can anyone help with the 'signs' that your wife is >>>probably going to file for divorce (even if she says that's not what [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > - SignatureLeinad Pepperbox & Derringer Parts Sets http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7157942072 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7158423459 I missed the original post, signs of what, Ed > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > > > - >I missed the original post, signs of what, Signs that you've entered the Twilight Zone. =R= >> I missed the original post, signs of what, > > Signs that you've entered the Twilight Zone. =R= Really? I still can't find Rod. Where is he? > >> I missed the original post, signs of what, > > > > Signs that you've entered the Twilight Zone. =R= > > Really? I still can't find Rod. Where is he? Still here. OP was: Can anyone help with the 'signs' that your wife is probably going to file for divorce (even if she says that's not what she's thinking). >>>> I missed the original post, signs of what, >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Can anyone help with the 'signs' that your wife is probably going to > file for divorce (even if she says that's not what she's thinking). Oh! You're the Rod! (I was thinkin of Rod Serling)! > >>>> I missed the original post, signs of what, > >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Oh! You're the Rod! (I was thinkin of Rod Serling)! Yeah, he doesn't post here much anymore. >>>>>> I missed the original post, signs of what, >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Yeah, he doesn't post here much anymore. I could swear I've been running into something he's left behind though. Sounds like you're going thru your own a bit too, trying to make sense of all of this. It's almost like a purgatory. >> Oh! You're the Rod! (I was thinkin of Rod Serling)! > >Yeah, he doesn't post here much anymore. Think how damn cool that would be if he DID!!! usenet from beyond the grave, bwah-hah-hah... >> I missed the original post, signs of what, > > Signs that you've entered the Twilight Zone. =R= Ok now this explains it. Cripple had a go around with me in another group when he was having a pitty party. I replied to a post he made telling him he wasn't alone and because I reply between the lines (To remember what I want to say) he got his panties in a knot and posted that he had been picked on in other groups too in 3 post or less. I have FMS and Spinal Stenosis and I'm in freaking constant pain and never look for a pitty party because I know there are people out there with it worse. What pissed me off it wasn't until like his 6th post flaming me and a few others that he posted he has less than a year to live. He then posted how he has a bunch of broken ribs but just installed a new compressor on his van. I think the guy is full of it and looking for Internet prey. CB >I missed the original post, signs of what, > >Ed Your old lady getting ready to dump your a.s. >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >> > >> > - Signature"patients who undertake opioid maintenance therapy should behave in a way that is beyond reproach or suspicion in all matters relating to their use of medications. Patients who are unwilling or unable to do so jeopardize not only their own health and safety, but the health and safety of other patients with chronic pain." -- Dr. Hurwitz First, the single best thing you can initially do is go to Alanon meetings, you can look them up in the phonebook. What you are doing is called enabling. It sounds like we're talking about your home so you have the power, difficult as it might be for you, to kick the alcoholic out of your house. So long as an alcoholic (which is an addiction even worse than heroin) has some way to get by -- the addiction will control them (and you too). Being an alcoholic is a disease/addiction that is beyound the control of the alcoholic. So the sooner they are FORCED back on their own resources the sooner they get into detox. At Alanon they can, if you allow it, teach you how to love the alcoholic with detachment. So again I strongly urge you to go to these meetings and listen with an open heart and mind. I grew up in an alcoholic family and so have had to deal with these issues, meaning that I'm not talking from theory but from very painful expereinces. Forcing the alcoholic onto their own resources is the best way to make them face reality and they might even have a "momentary glimpse" meaning an honest and heartfelt view of themselves, and what they are doing to others. Sadly none of this is guaranteed, I've been to too way to many AA funerals to think otherwise. If you like, I'd be happy to take this threat off-line if you wish. Just hit the "Reply" to individual button. SignatureGrampa Gus I once met a man who had no legs, after comparing notes he said he wouldn't swap his spinal cord for my legs because he'd have to give up his motorcycle. (This really happened!) Oh no! I can see a round of Jeff Foxworthy's "Here's yer sign" comin' on. | I'm new here. Can anyone help with the 'signs' that your wife is | probably going to file for divorce (even if she says that's not what [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] | | Thanks, any help is appreciated. Isolation from you will be the sign. Other than that it will probably be her little secret shes been planning for a while. Use reverse phycology just come home one day after work and hug and kiss on her and show how much she is appreciated. she either have two reaction. 1. Give the same in return 2. Or just say "whats up with you?" or just confront her about the issue is the best remedy > Isolation from you will be the sign. Other than that it will probably be > her little secret shes been planning for a while. Use reverse phycology [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > or just confront her about the issue is the best remedy I can pretty much guarantee it won't be number 1. The last time I went to kiss her I got a very cold cheek. She did give me a hug and a kiss on the cheek after buying her a nice bouquet and making her brunch on mother's day. Two days later she moved out of our bedroom. I'd say that rates as "isolation" (he said rather bitterly) >just come home one day after work and hug and kiss on her and show how >much she is appreciated. she either have two reaction. 1. Give the same >in return >2. Or just say "whats up with you?" I used to do that and tell my ex that every now and then you should declare a truce and confuse the enemy. sign are you and your spouse don't want to sleep on the same bed for any reason, one doesn't want to see other the first thing in the morning. Space, distance and separate activities. Don't believe in others. There are many ... divorce happens in mind before it happens in court. Happy couple -> warm & happy house, you just feel it w/o trying. People has aura in their body. |
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