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Happy Father's Day

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Barbara Didrichsen - 19 Jun 2005 18:23 GMT
To all the dads out there celebrating your special day -- Happy
Father's Day.  

I still have a letter my dad wrote me on what turned out to be our
last holiday together.  One of the things he said in the letter was
this:  "The wonderful thing about having lived this long is that I
have had the privilege not only to be your father but to become your
friend.  What a gift you are!  Wherever life leads, know in your heart
that I will ALWAYS be there when you need me, maybe even especially
when I can only touch your spirit."

My hope for all you dads out there, especially those who are facing
uphill struggles trying to maintain a presence in your childrens'
lives, is that you will be able to share the kind of loving
relationship with your children that my dad and I shared.  And that
someday, you'll be able to write a letter that they treasure, along
with their lifetime of memories of the time you spent together.

Barb
JT - 19 Jun 2005 21:44 GMT
Thanks Barb:

Brian

> To all the dads out there celebrating your special day -- Happy
> Father's Day.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Barb
kato - 19 Jun 2005 22:38 GMT
> To all the dads out there celebrating your special day -- Happy
> Father's Day.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Barb

Thank-you Barb for understanding what some of us, who have lost our dads, go
thru at this time of year.
Barbara Didrichsen - 19 Jun 2005 22:41 GMT
[snip]

>Thank-you Barb for understanding what some of us, who have lost our dads, go
>thru at this time of year.

Thanks, kato.  I'm finding the tears to be very close to the surface
today.  

I really miss my dad.  I think I will see his face and hear his laugh
until the end of my days.

Barb
Bill in Co. - 19 Jun 2005 22:44 GMT
> [snip]
>
>> Thank-you Barb for understanding what some of us, who have lost our dads,
go
>> thru at this time of year.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Barb

I miss everybody.     It all sucks...
m_eL - 19 Jun 2005 23:03 GMT
>I really miss my dad.  I think I will see his face and hear his laugh
>until the end of my days.

sigh... ya got me almost crying..

As i've mentioned, i did/do not have a "close" relationship with my dad, but
rather an awkward, resentful one.  But today something happened.  I called him
for the obligatory "Happy Father's Day" call and we talked a bit like usual.  
But at the end of the call -  he said "I love you".
The words i went for decades at a time not hearing from him, just Mom saying
"you know your father loves you" and inside i'd scream to myself "why doesn't
he tell me so?" and his yelling and criticizing indicating otherwise to me.  I
can't recall his initiating an "i love you" to me since i was a preschooler.
I felt sad whenever i'd see daddy/daughter affection anywhere, and have found
myself seeking that feeling of male approval but nothing else is the same.

Now it seems different.   Maybe I can forgive him for all the other stuff now,
becuz he's human and he loves ME. :-)  
Barbara Didrichsen - 19 Jun 2005 23:12 GMT
[snip]

>sigh... ya got me almost crying..

Join the crowd ;-))

>As i've mentioned, i did/do not have a "close" relationship with my dad, but
>rather an awkward, resentful one.  But today something happened.  I called him
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Now it seems different.   Maybe I can forgive him for all the other stuff now,
>becuz he's human and he loves ME. :-)  

Sounds like something quite extraordiinary happened today, MeL.  

By the way-- forgiving someone doesn't mean you have to forget what
happened.  Just that you...let go of the anger (hostility?
bitterness?  feelings of being responsible?) that you've carried
around with you all these years.

Death is the great equalizer.  If we're lucky, we acknowledge it while
we still have time to make amends.  I believe my dad did -- maybe
yours is trying to, too.

Bar
Rodney M. - 20 Jun 2005 06:50 GMT
> >I really miss my dad.  I think I will see his face and hear his laugh
> >until the end of my days.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Now it seems different.   Maybe I can forgive him for all the other stuff now,
> becuz he's human and he loves ME. :-)

Geez, that's the best thing I've read in a long time. Really. Thanks
for sharing.

For me, it was a great Father's Day too because my own kid's went out
of their way to make me feel loved. They took me out for lunch and we
had a great time together. And without my stbx there to make things
tense, I had a glimpse of what life after this divorce is going to be
like - and it was good, and peaceful. And fun.

I love my kids with all my heart, and they love me and that makes all
the years of crappy marriage I've had to deal with seem somehow much
less awful.
Nearl J Icarus - 20 Jun 2005 11:16 GMT
rod444rod@hotmail.com says...

>For me, it was a great Father's Day too because my own kid's went out
>of their way to make me feel loved. They took me out for lunch and we
>had a great time together. And without my stbx there to make things

My oldest son has been coming over and kidnapping for the last few years on
Father's Day. When I got home, I found a card my middle son left for me. It
had a face drawn on the envelope. The "DAD" were the eyes and part of the
nose. My youngest son is getting to be too much of a recluse. I should have
had him go with me.

Father's Day in 2K was also the last time my ex told me that she wanted a
separation.
Cheryl - 20 Jun 2005 15:49 GMT
>>I really miss my dad.  I think I will see his face and hear his laugh
>>until the end of my days.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Now it seems different.   Maybe I can forgive him for all the other stuff now,
> becuz he's human and he loves ME. :-)  

That's wonderful ML.  I bet it did feel strange to hear it, wonderful
and scary at the same time.  I'm not quite sure how I would react if my
dad said it to me.

Hugs,
Cheryl
Elisa - 20 Jun 2005 17:41 GMT
>>>I really miss my dad.  I think I will see his face and hear his laugh
>>>until the end of my days.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Hugs,
> Cheryl

It was the last thing my father said to me before he died last October.  I
will cherish that memory forever.  I had heard it before, but not very
often.  I didn't think he knew who I was (due to the morphine), but he said
my name and then told me he loved me.  I feel so lucky.

Elisa
m_eL - 20 Jun 2005 19:03 GMT
>>>>I really miss my dad.  I think I will see his face and hear his laugh
>>>>until the end of my days.
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>often.  I didn't think he knew who I was (due to the morphine), but he said
>my name and then told me he loved me.  I feel so lucky.

Words can mean so much.
Elisa - 21 Jun 2005 02:13 GMT
>>>>>I really miss my dad.  I think I will see his face and hear his laugh
>>>>>until the end of my days.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Words can mean so much.

Yes, you are so right!

Elisa
saulgoode - 19 Jun 2005 23:20 GMT
My son's mom showed up Friday with a dog! She got a German Beagle
(Shepherd/Beagle mutt), 2yo, boy, no training.

Happy Father's Day! she said, and dropped off the new dog and the boy.

My son loves the dog and named the dog Fetch. Fetch has been the boy's
alter ego for over a month now. He pretends he's a dog, even eats
without his hands (so long as he eats, right!).

So now I have two dogs named Fetch: the boy's split personality, and a
real dog who's howling right now, probably getting me complaints at the
apt. office (Beagles have great pipes). They're both great dogs, just
gonna need some training ;) They're an unruly pair.

At least only one of them poops on the carpet.

I love em both.

For Father's Day, I took the boy to Six Flags. He's finally 42" and can
ride the kid rides alone. He was stoked and we had a great time.

Today's been a good Father's Day.

- Saul

> To all the dads out there celebrating your special day -- Happy
> Father's Day.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Barb
m_eL - 20 Jun 2005 01:02 GMT
>My son's mom showed up Friday with a dog! She got a German Beagle
>(Shepherd/Beagle mutt), 2yo, boy, no training.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>I love em both.

:-)
I'm glad you're having a good Father's day!
Good luck w/the carpet.
Nearl J Icarus - 20 Jun 2005 11:08 GMT
barberra@yahooremove.com says...

>To all the dads out there celebrating your special day -- Happy
>Father's Day.  

I called Mom up and told her "Happy Father's Day, Dad couldn't have done it
without ya." She got a good laugh out of that. Dad has been gone for 23 years
now. Wish he were still around.
wickedways - 20 Jun 2005 23:57 GMT
my dad's been gone since 1970...I was thinking yesterday that it was nice
not to have to buy cards or presents (leave it to me to find the fringe
view), not for dad or for stepdad (gone since 1982, and I could still miss
him if I thought about it) or for my son's dad! one Hallmark day I can just
ignore....on the other hand, I send a card every week to my aunt with
Alzheimer's; she lives far far away and there is no card category for that
(not "get well soon" not "sorry for your loss" not "congratulations on your
new home" or anything....great thing about Alzheimer's is you meet so many
new people...)....she loves getting them and it doesn't matter what I write!
no one else sends her cards although she does have one loving relative who
visits....how about "Remembering you on National Alzheimer's Day".....? Hey,
I can joke, people I love who had it said it's OK to joke!!!...anyway, happy
non-fathers day to all of you who whose not to reproduce....we appreciate
YOU TOO! ;-)

> barberra@yahooremove.com says...
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> without ya." She got a good laugh out of that. Dad has been gone for 23 years
> now. Wish he were still around.
Nearl J Icarus - 21 Jun 2005 10:10 GMT
lostcause@gmail.com says...

>new home" or anything....great thing about Alzheimer's is you meet so many
>new people...)....she loves getting them and it doesn't matter what I write!
>no one else sends her cards although she does have one loving relative who
>visits....

My short term memory is about shot. (it never was very good). I tell people
you know what's good about Alzheimer's? New friends every day. My
g-grandfather went senile. I never did notice any difference with him. My
grandmother took care of him and she had her hands full. He took me under his
wing when I was a small child. I used to skip school to go over to his house
and eat pancakes.
Rodney M. - 21 Jun 2005 16:36 GMT
> My short term memory is about shot. (it never was very good). I tell people
> you know what's good about Alzheimer's? New friends every day.

And, you can hide your own Easter eggs.

More seriously though, my short term memory is really bad too. But only
after my marriage went downhill. I'm still trying to figure out if
those are related.

I sometimes think that my mind was so full trying to work out our
marriage issues, that there just wasn't room left to remember anything
that wasn't vitally important. Not sure what will happen now that we
are divorcing and I am more at peace mentally - I'm hoping that maybe
the ol' memory kicks back in again.
m_eL - 21 Jun 2005 18:04 GMT
>> My short term memory is about shot. (it never was very good). I tell people
>> you know what's good about Alzheimer's? New friends every day.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>are divorcing and I am more at peace mentally - I'm hoping that maybe
>the ol' memory kicks back in again.

My short-term memory is very bad, too.   It's frustrating, but i can cope with
it ok.  I write things down a lot, and have asked my husband to try not to get
frustrated with me when i ask a question he just answered an hour ago.  My
sons used to get upset with me when i ask something they already told me, but
i think they're getting used to it.
Confusing when i'm watching a movie and by the time it's almost over i forgot
the beginning - yet it's kind of cool to be able to watch a movie "for the
first time" that i've already seen! :-)
My therapist  said with alzheimer's you have no idea about something, whereas
with this, you know there is something but temporarily forgot what it was.  
Like knowing a face but the name slips, as opposed to looking at a relative
and having no idea who they are.
Rodney M. - 21 Jun 2005 20:32 GMT
> My therapist  said with alzheimer's you have no idea about something, whereas
> with this, you know there is something but temporarily forgot what it was.
> Like knowing a face but the name slips, as opposed to looking at a relative
> and having no idea who they are.

That IS reassuring actually. Alzheimer's is a dreaded disease, that's
for sure. I have a relative who died of it and I gotta say, it was
absolutely awful.

I think I'd rather die just about any other way because of what it does
to one's family - I think it hurts loved ones more than it hurts the
victim because the loved ones know what's happening and the victim is
mostly confused or oblivious (which is, coincidentally, exactly how my
stbx describes me :)

But short of that, we're not doing so bad. I saw a true story of a man
who, though otherwise perfectly healthy, had an extremely short memory.
He literally had to write down ever single thing he had to remember or
do, including the names of his wife and kids, where he lived, what his
car looked like, where he worked (he still had a job!), how to do his
job, his bosses name, how to get home after work, EVERYTHING. His PDA
held his entire life. Holy cow.

I think the only advantage was that he slept with a different woman
every night of the week and never felt guilty :)
wickedways - 21 Jun 2005 20:43 GMT
> That IS reassuring actually. Alzheimer's is a dreaded disease, that's
> for sure. I have a relative who died of it and I gotta say, it was
> absolutely awful.

is it on the death certificate? reason I ask is....as with AIDS, Alzheimer's
is an opportunistic condition, cause of death is usually something else....

try being 50 and diagnosed with it, as was my friend Janet....

> I think I'd rather die just about any other way because of what it does
> to one's family - I think it hurts loved ones more than it hurts the
> victim because the loved ones know what's happening

but families are getting better at recognizing how to cope with that....you
can learn to be "OK" with being mistaken for some long-dead friend/relative
and just go with the flow....you can accept that the person you
recognized/loved isn't really there any more and that this new "differently
functioning" being needs care....but the worst part is behavioral
issues...paranoia, violence, self-injury...THAT part of it is beyond
bearing....
Rodney M. - 21 Jun 2005 23:12 GMT
> is it on the death certificate? reason I ask is....as with AIDS, Alzheimer's
> is an opportunistic condition, cause of death is usually something else....

I don't know. It was a few decades back and I don't think it was as
commonly diagnosed back then. More likely it was thought of as
'dementia' or 'senility'. She basically wasted away until there was
literally nothing left of her, physically or mentally. It may have been
Alzheimer's combined with other diseases actually but I mostly remember
her not remembering who we were and how incredibly painful it was for
my family.

> try being 50 and diagnosed with it, as was my friend Janet....

That would be so incredibly difficult to accept. I'm glad she's still
your friend.

> > I think I'd rather die just about any other way because of what it does
> > to one's family - I think it hurts loved ones more than it hurts the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> issues...paranoia, violence, self-injury...THAT part of it is beyond
> bearing....

I have a friend whose father has it. He used to be a semi-famous sports
hero, but is slowly changing into a different person. I think the
family is learning to cope but they not only have to deal with the
change in his personality, but also the incredible awkwardness of
having people recognize him in public, but not understand his behavior.
So sad, and yet, they continue to shower him with love and he responds
when he's 'clear' and ...life does go on.
wickedways - 22 Jun 2005 00:44 GMT
> > try being 50 and diagnosed with it, as was my friend Janet....
>
> That would be so incredibly difficult to accept. I'm glad she's still
> your friend.

well, she's been dead nearly a decade now, she was Kevorkian's first
"collaborator." a terrific woman.
Bill in Co. - 22 Jun 2005 03:31 GMT
>>> try being 50 and diagnosed with it, as was my friend Janet....
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> well, she's been dead nearly a decade now, she was Kevorkian's first
> "collaborator." a terrific woman.

I think it's criminal that he was put in jail.   I hope he's out now.
Nearl J Icarus - 22 Jun 2005 08:32 GMT
lostcause@gmail.com says...

>functioning" being needs care....but the worst part is behavioral
>issues...paranoia, violence, self-injury...THAT part of it is beyond
>bearing....

The only thing I remember being odd about my g-grandfather is that Grandma
turned all the mirrors backwards. It wasn't until afterwards that I found out
what the reason was. He didn't recognize himself and wanted to know who that
s.o.b. was. He lived to 86, Grandma lived to 88. Her mind was just as sharp as
it ever was. The only thing that slowed her down was age.
Nearl J Icarus - 22 Jun 2005 08:39 GMT
lostcause@gmail.com says...

>is it on the death certificate? reason I ask is....as with AIDS, Alzheimer's
>is an opportunistic condition, cause of death is usually something else....

My Dad's death certificate lists the immediate cause of death/duration and
what caused it/duration. He died of ventricular fibrillation (15 minutes)
brought on by ASH (decades).
wickedways - 22 Jun 2005 18:34 GMT
> My Dad's death certificate lists the immediate cause of death/duration and
> what caused it/duration. He died of ventricular fibrillation (15 minutes)
> brought on by ASH (decades).

yikes, 15 minutes of fib! my dad's certificate says "cause unknown."
Nearl J Icarus - 22 Jun 2005 08:17 GMT
rod444rod@hotmail.com says...
own Easter eggs.

>More seriously though, my short term memory is really bad too. But only
>after my marriage went downhill. I'm still trying to figure out if
>those are related.

It does make it hard to think things out and stay focused. It didn't take me
long to figure out in school that if it took memorization, I couldn't do it.
Barbara Sz. - 23 Jun 2005 19:16 GMT
Rodney,

I had a lot of problems with memory when I was pregnant. I used to joke
that pregnancy was a chemical lobotomy. :)

I think anytime that we are stressed, in crisis, dealing with an
emotional upheaval (like divorce, or like me this last week, my
mother's surgery and moving my parents into a retirement community from
the only house I've ever known), it puts you into some sort of mode
where you are mentally pre-occupied (even subconsciously!) with that
situation, and the pre-occupation takes up all the neurons and leaves
your short-term memory short-handed. Depression and other chemical
imbalances or emotional issues also use up or short-circuit these brain
functions. That's my opinion anyway. I'm sure there's a more medical
explanation.

Just remember, as soon as you get it all back, you're in your mid 40s
and losing it all over again... (I SO resemble that remark) -- Barbara
Sz.

>my short term memory is really bad too. But only after my marriage went downhill. I'm still >trying to figure out if those are related.
Rodney M. - 24 Jun 2005 00:16 GMT
> Rodney,
>
> I had a lot of problems with memory when I was pregnant.

Yeah I tried using that as an excuse too, but my wife didn't buy it:)

<snip>
> Just remember, as soon as you get it all back, you're in your mid 40s
> and losing it all over again

Absolutely true, Beth.           :)
wickedways - 24 Jun 2005 01:17 GMT
> Yeah I tried using that as an excuse too, but my wife didn't buy it:)
>
> <snip>
> > Just remember, as soon as you get it all back, you're in your mid 40s
> > and losing it all over again

something is wrong with me because the older I get the better my retention
seems to be (also, my fitness level just keeps improving. I have no
explanation for that). I like the "Beth" line.

> Absolutely true, Beth.           :)
Rodney M. - 24 Jun 2005 03:45 GMT
> something is wrong with me because the older I get the better my retention
> seems to be (also, my fitness level just keeps improving. I have no
> explanation for that).

Better retention? Better fitness as you age? Well whatever it is put it
in a bottle and get thyself on the Shopping Channel NOW.

I use to think that silly channel was a joke, 'til I saw the
documentary about an older lady who was extraordinarily young looking
for her senior age. She sold her miracle cream even though it was
likely genetics that had blessed her.

In half an hour she made 10's of thousands of dollars.

I'm in the basement working on my new Rod-O-Rama Facial Enhancer and
Fusion Toner right now...
Bill in Co. - 24 Jun 2005 04:08 GMT
>> something is wrong with me because the older I get the better my retention
>> seems to be (also, my fitness level just keeps improving. I have no
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> for her senior age. She sold her miracle cream even though it was
> likely genetics that had blessed her.

Does she look as young as Liz Taylor or Raquel Welch?   (or maybe they don't
anymore)

> In half an hour she made 10's of thousands of dollars.
>
> I'm in the basement working on my new Rod-O-Rama Facial Enhancer and
> Fusion Toner right now...
Rodney M. - 24 Jun 2005 07:04 GMT
> >> something is wrong with me because the older I get the better my
> retention
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Does she look as young as Liz Taylor or Raquel Welch?   (or maybe they don't
> anymore)

Are we dating ourselves? 9/10ths of the male population doesn't know
who Raquel is anymore. Their loss. :)

The saleslady looked like very healthy early 50's senior - but she was
actually in her 70's!

In reality I think she was 102 and just had a fantastic plastic
surgeon. Actually, now that I think about it, it could have been
Michael Jackson :)

> > In half an hour she made 10's of thousands of dollars.
> >
> > I'm in the basement working on my new Rod-O-Rama Facial Enhancer and
> > Fusion Toner right now...
BP - 24 Jun 2005 09:11 GMT
>Are we dating ourselves?

I guess I must be; I'm certainly not dating anyone else... <rimshot>

>9/10ths of the male population doesn't know
>who Raquel is anymore. Their loss. :)

Agreed.

BP
Joy - 26 Jun 2005 15:46 GMT
> something is wrong with me because the older I get the better my retention
> seems to be (also, my fitness level just keeps improving. I have no
> explanation for that).

Yeah, well, if you figure it out - SHARE!!!!
Barbara Sz. - 24 Jun 2005 17:16 GMT
My father has never so much *signed* a card to me.

No "I love you"s.

No compliments of any kind.

No emotional support.

Not much in the way of emotion period.

He's a male chauvinist for the most part (pretty much expects to be
waited on, catered to, etc. and gets it).

We moved my parents into a retirement community/continuing care
facility (their, ok, my mom's choice, who knows what Dad thinks about
it) on Monday while my mother was having surgery (her choice to come
home from the hospital to the new place). My dad was having a hard time
deconstructing a 3-section wrought-iron shelving unit to make a
2-section unit (he was taking out the middle section). I, who consider
myself mechanically challenged, managed to get it apart AND got it back
together. Know what my dad said to me when I (pleased as heck with
myself) announced "ta-da!"? Nothing. No thanks, no nothing.

I spent 3 whole days in his company this week because of my mother's
surgery on Monday. I even spent the night at their new apartment on the
couch since it was his first night and he didn't know anyone else at
the retirement community and isn't much of a socializer.

I have received no love, no thanks, no ...

Unfortunately for me, I was born a "daddy's girl". My mother told me
that the only women I'd let hold me as a baby were her and my
grandmother. I'd cry for any other woman. But I'd be just fine with any
man, Dad, Papa, or otherwise.

Needless to say there are no Father's Day cards that say "I have
desperately sought a sign of your approval all my life, and you have
consistently let me down. But I love you anyway."

I never know what he really thinks or feels (or if he feels), he never
pays anyone a direct compliment (my mother read some e-mail or written
letters to my half-sister where my dad complimented my mother, but he's
never said anything like that to her face). She even says she doesn't
ever remember him saying "I love you" to her.

My dad is going to die one day and it's going to just kill me. My
half-sister (who my dad gave up to his wife's sister and husband for
adoption when the girl was age 7 as her mother/his wife became severely
mentally ill shortly after the girl was born and is institutionalized
to this day; she didn't get in touch with my dad until around 10 years
ago but she and her family have become a part of our family and they
consider us part of their family) has letters and e-mails from my dad
over the last 10 years. I have nothing but the memories of getting no
compliment for being ranked 6th in my high school class (he said he was
6th in his class); getting no "atta girl" for graduating from college
and grad school, getting a good job, having a great son. I do have a
memory that he offered that I could move back in with them if I needed
to when my ex and I split up. He actually said it himself. So I guess
that is something...

It also makes being alone a whole 'nother story with me...way too much
baggage. --Barbara Sz.
Bill in Co. - 24 Jun 2005 19:06 GMT
> My father has never so much *signed* a card to me.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Not much in the way of emotion period.

That is so SAD - and heartbreaking, Barb.    :-(

> He's a male chauvinist for the most part (pretty much expects to be
> waited on, catered to, etc. and gets it).
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> together. Know what my dad said to me when I (pleased as heck with
> myself) announced "ta-da!"? Nothing. No thanks, no nothing.

But THAT is about HIM, not you!    That is HIS problem!!

Well, you probably know that, at least on a conscious level, but maybe
realizing that that is really HIS problem or defect can help take off SOME
of the edge?    (Then again, maybe it can't - I think I can see how you
would feel that way - he's still your father, and with that comes the normal
expectations of parental love)

> I spent 3 whole days in his company this week because of my mother's
> surgery on Monday. I even spent the night at their new apartment on the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> desperately sought a sign of your approval all my life, and you have
> consistently let me down. But I love you anyway."

Wow.    :-(         You are also a-s-s-u-m-i-n-g- that he thinks you let him
down.   Again - what about the possibility that HE is the one with the
problem here - not you?

> I never know what he really thinks or feels (or if he feels), he never
> pays anyone a direct compliment (my mother read some e-mail or written
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> My dad is going to die one day and it's going to just kill me.

OK, I'm probably a bit naive, but given what you have said, why would you
feel that?    Because he was not there for you (apparently), and now that
possibility would be removed, or ????

> My half-sister (who my dad gave up to his wife's sister and husband for
> adoption when the girl was age 7 as her mother/his wife became severely
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> It also makes being alone a whole 'nother story with me...way too much
> baggage. --Barbara Sz.
-Calliope- - 24 Jun 2005 22:57 GMT
>> My dad is going to die one day and it's going to just kill me.
>
> OK, I'm probably a bit naive, but given what you have said, why would
> you feel that?    Because he was not there for you (apparently), and
> now that possibility would be removed, or ????

If she's like me, that would be the case.  When my bio-father died, I
cried for three days, because at that point, any chance he would have to
explain why he gave me up, why he never tried to contact me was gone.  I
grieved over what never was and now never could be.  (And before people
jump in and say.. how do I know he never did or wanted to, because he
*did* do all that and more with my brother but not with either myself nor
with my sister)
Signature

Cal~

calliope 123 at gmail dot com

Bill in Co. - 24 Jun 2005 23:36 GMT
>>> My dad is going to die one day and it's going to just kill me.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> cried for three days, because at that point, any chance he would have to
> explain why he gave me up, why he never tried to contact me was gone.

I'm sorry, Cal.   That must have hurt a lot.

> I grieved over what never was and now never could be.  (And before people
> jump in and say.. how do I know he never did or wanted to, because he
> *did* do all that and more with my brother but not with either myself nor
> with my sister)

I guess I'm looking at this the wrong way, but it seems to me that that
possibility was SO unlikely, that it's just wishful thinking.    But that's
trying to look at it "logically" or perhaps more "realistically", and not
with the heart, I guess(??). Because with the heart, you can't give that up
so easily.    Is that it?
-Calliope- - 24 Jun 2005 23:46 GMT
>> I grieved over what never was and now never could be.  (And before
>> people jump in and say.. how do I know he never did or wanted to,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I guess I'm looking at this the wrong way, but it seems to me that
> that possibility was SO unlikely, that it's just wishful thinking.

I don't know why it was so unlikely (in my case).. because he *did* manage
to seek out and have a relationship with my older brother.
 
> But that's trying to look at it "logically" or perhaps more
> "realistically", and not with the heart, I guess(??). Because with the
> heart, you can't give that up so easily.    Is that it?

Well, he's dead now.. there is nothing to hope for anymore.  In Barbara's
case, he father is still alive and she's still looking for that elusive
approval.  I wonder how he would react if she came out and outright asked
him to tell her how he feels about her, and if he is proud of her
achievements.  I regret not doing something similar with my BD.
Signature

Cal~

calliope 123 at gmail dot com

Bill in Co. - 25 Jun 2005 00:03 GMT
>>> I grieved over what never was and now never could be.  (And before
>>> people jump in and say.. how do I know he never did or wanted to,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I don't know why it was so unlikely (in my case).. because he *did* manage
> to seek out and have a relationship with my older brother.

Maybe he can't do it with a daughter, due to his own upbringing and baggage.
(??)     (That doesn't justify it, but I'm just trying to see an explanation
for it).

>> But that's trying to look at it "logically" or perhaps more
>> "realistically", and not with the heart, I guess(??). Because with the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> calliope 123 at gmail dot com
Nearl J Icarus - 25 Jun 2005 10:11 GMT
calliope123remove@removegmail.com says...

>approval.  I wonder how he would react if she came out and outright asked
>him to tell her how he feels about her, and if he is proud of her
>achievements.  I regret not doing something similar with my BD.

When my Dad died in '82, I had never told him that I loved him. My Dad's side
of the family is rather distant (emotionally). To say something like that
would only embarass him. I have no doubt that he knew how I felt about him.

About 7 years after that, I gathered enough courage to tell my mother that I
loved her. I told her that Dad never got to hear that from me and I didn't
want her to also. She laughed at me. She said that I didn't need to tell her
what she already knew.

I almost missed the chance to do that. Mom asked me if I wanted to go for a
walk and I was a little tired and said no. Then it dawned on me that Mom never
walked anywhere so I went out the door after her.
Nearl J Icarus - 25 Jun 2005 09:49 GMT
calliope123remove@removegmail.com says...

>If she's like me, that would be the case.  When my bio-father died, I
>cried for three days, because at that point, any chance he would have to
>explain why he gave me up, why he never tried to contact me was gone.  I
>grieved over what never was and now never could be.  (And before people

My oldest daughter went through something like that. She had just turned one
year old when I married her mother. My daughter spent a couple years trying to
get her mother to tell her who her biological father was. My ex was rather
vague about it and wouldn't give her a straight story for quite a while.

My daughter went to NY last year to try and find her biological father and see
what other siblings she had. She got a rather cool reception when she got out
there and isn't as concerned about who her father was.

When she doesn't feel well, she still puts her head against my arm like
there's something I can do to make her feel better.
Xenos the Elder - 24 Jun 2005 21:33 GMT
> My father has never so much *signed* a card to me.
>
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> It also makes being alone a whole 'nother story with me...way too much
> baggage. --Barbara Sz.

So is your ex-husband in any way similar to your dad?
Barbara Sz. - 25 Jun 2005 03:08 GMT
Ummmmm, no, not really. My ex was the epitome of the good father,
supportive, verbally encouraging, affectionate, all that to our son,
and to me for that matter.

But, then again, I'm not like my mother, either. She has stuck with my
dad for over 47 years despite his ... emotional shortcomings.

And, the truth is, I don't know what my dad was like before his wife
became severely mentally ill and for the good of his daughter he gave
her up to her maternal aunt and uncle when she was age 7. Maybe that
changed him. I suspect, though, that he's always been this way
emotionally. The aunt always believed it was his fault that her sister,
my dad's first wife, became ill in the first place (not likely as
apparently their mother had a similar issue).

And, although I understand that my dad has probably been trying to
"make it up" to his oldest daughter (until I was 13, I thought that was
me) with the letters and the e-mail, I can't help but feel a certain
amount of envy. She's only known him in his post-retirement, more
mellow years. I have all those formative years of criticism and lack of
encouragement. He sees us to the door when we visit now and stands
there expectantly until you hug him (of course he would never make the
first move), and even though I do it, it is awkward and unnatural as
heck.

I find myself tongue-tied around my dad. He is not someone who has ever
discussed his feelings about anything or anyone to my knowledge, even
my mother. I have no idea what goes on inside that head and heart of
his. And I suspect that he has little idea of what goes on inside mine.
He has always been the absent-minded professor, seemingly uninterested
in the "mundane" conversations that are usually a basic part of life.

My ex always said I needed therapy due to my lack of self-esteem which
he felt stemmed from my relationship with my dad.

But lest I paint my dad as a complete zero, he was very much present
during our growing up. He was a professor, was home for dinner every
night, bounced us on his knee when we were little and helped us get our
shirts off before going to bed, listened to our prayers with my mother.

He played games with us -- Monopoly, chess, Scrabble, Hearts, Casino.
He taught me how to crochet. We took 3-week long camping vacations as a
family most every summer from 1968 when I was 9 until we all grew up
and left home. We saw sights, hiked hikes, set up camp together. He
taught us things, explained things, he did Cub and Boy Scouts with my
brother. He helped me with my abstract algebra and group theory
homework in college (I still never understood it).

Despite all that, he never complimented one report card (he always
found a typo or asked a question about something, never said "good job"
or anything like that), he showed no pride in our accomplishments, he
was very critical and demanding so that it seemed impossible to ever
please him. (I have a tendency to do this with my son, but he keeps on
my case about it and I try not to as well.) When I graduated from
college, despite having had quadruple bypass surgery 6 weeks earlier,
he sat up on the dais with all the other faculty instead of with the
rest of the family.

I want him to acknowledge me as his daughter and say I matter to him. I
don't want to have to ask him to do it; for me, things like that "don't
count". Which is why if he dies, Bill, it's going to kill me. I'm never
going to ask him, and <sigh>, he's probably never going to say it.

Sorry for being so long-winded... It's been a really long and rough
couple of weeks. -- Barbara Sz.

> So is your ex-husband in any way similar to your dad?
Barbara Didrichsen - 25 Jun 2005 03:19 GMT
[snip]

>I want him to acknowledge me as his daughter and say I matter to him. I
>don't want to have to ask him to do it; for me, things like that "don't
>count". Which is why if he dies, Bill, it's going to kill me. I'm never
>going to ask him, and <sigh>, he's probably never going to say it.

Why?  I'm sorry, Barbara -- it's easy to be theoretical about it now
-- he's still alive.

When he's not, what difference will it make if it was *you* who asked
-- or him?  Maybe if you ask, he won't be able to answer.  Maybe it
will be horribly embarrassing -- for both of you.  Maybe you'll hear
something you don't want to hear.

But when he's gone - at least you'll know you asked.  You'll know you
did everything you could to give him the opportunity to explain
himself to you (and you to him).  

That in itself can be incredibly comforting when the mourning sets in.

Barb
Bill in Co. - 25 Jun 2005 04:28 GMT
> Ummmmm, no, not really. My ex was the epitome of the good father,
> supportive, verbally encouraging, affectionate, all that to our son,
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> count". Which is why if he dies, Bill, it's going to kill me. I'm never
> going to ask him, and <sigh>, he's probably never going to say it.

Barb - he may be afraid to say it.   Or he may feel somewhat embarrassed to
say it.   So it's ok to help him there.

Why does it have to be so black and white, as you portray it?    It's not,
you know.

I think you have little to lose by asking, and possibly a lot to gain, and I
don't agree that "it doesn't count" if you do.   Not at all!

We're not all wired the same, you have to realize that.   Don't wait until
it's too late.

> Sorry for being so long-winded... It's been a really long and rough
> couple of weeks. -- Barbara Sz.
>
>> So is your ex-husband in any way similar to your dad?
Barbara Sz. - 25 Jun 2005 18:05 GMT
Oh, Bill, everything is black and white for me. Has been as long as I
can remember. When they put me together, someone forgot to put in a
gray scale. Very rarely can I / do I find the gray in the middle. --
Barbara Sz.

>Why does it have to be so black and white, as you portray it?    It's not, you know.
Bill in Co. - 25 Jun 2005 19:14 GMT
Well, if you can find the gray (and I need to look too!), just consider what
I suggested, ok?    And our Guru Barb said pretty much the same thing,
right?

So - pleases don't feel like it's meaningless if you have to prompt him.
Keep in mind he is a guy, afterall, and sometimes it's hard for us guys
(stereotyping a bit here, I know) to say how we really feel.    Half the
time I'm not even sure if some of us really know ourselves.    (Forgive the
stereotyping, but for a lot of guys when they are brought up, expressing
feelings is considered a bit ... wussy).

> Oh, Bill, everything is black and white for me. Has been as long as I
> can remember. When they put me together, someone forgot to put in a
> gray scale. Very rarely can I / do I find the gray in the middle. --
> Barbara Sz.
>
>> Why does it have to be so black and white, as you portray it?    It's
not,
>> you know.
Barbara Sz. - 25 Jun 2005 20:20 GMT
Somehow my son got more than his share of a feminine side in this
respect. He can be very articulate about his feelings when he's in the
right mood or when he's trying to prop me up. He was great Tuesday
night when I was so upset about leaving my dad by himself in his new
place (I'd stayed on the couch there the night before, but I had
already lost 2 of the 24 1/2 days/nights with my son this week because
of the move and my mom's surgery and couldn't bear to lose another
one). Even at 16 1/2, he's still ready for a hug, wants them, needs
them and is more than adequate in being verbal about his feelings.

We had a conversation in the car when I took him back to his dad's on
Thursday evening. I was somewhat dejected/angry/threatened/whatever
that some things I had given him from my mother, he was taking to his
dad's instead of leaving them at my place. He does that with everything
pretty much, the stuff goes to his dad's. So I was feeling like he
didn't consider my place his "home" since he never left any of his
stuff there (well, except for a few clothes, but we practically had to
twist his arm off even to do that, he was happy to live out of a duffle
bag when he came to my place). He said that home for him wasn't where
his stuff was. He considered my place home because I was there. ...
<sniff> Like I said, he's evolved way beyond any "guy" stereotype I've
ever heard of. -- Barbara Sz.
Bill in Co. - 25 Jun 2005 20:45 GMT
> Somehow my son got more than his share of a feminine side in this
> respect. He can be very articulate about his feelings when he's in the
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> <sniff> Like I said, he's evolved way beyond any "guy" stereotype I've
> ever heard of. -- Barbara Sz.

That's great, Barb!     He's probably also a little bit worried about you.
But anyway you cut it, it sounds good! - and I'm glad he's sensitive!   We
desperately need more sensitive people in this world.
Nearl J Icarus - 25 Jun 2005 10:43 GMT
szalkow@stcl.edu says...

>I find myself tongue-tied around my dad. He is not someone who has ever
>discussed his feelings about anything or anyone to my knowledge, even
>my mother. I have no idea what goes on inside that head and heart of
>his. And I suspect that he has little idea of what goes on inside mine.
>He has always been the absent-minded professor, seemingly uninterested
>in the "mundane" conversations that are usually a basic part of life.

This is kinda odd. I've never had a problem talking to my Dad about things,
though he would never talk about his feelings. When I started dating the girl
I eventually married, I told him all about her and said nothing to my mother
about her. Neither one of us is very good at idle chit chat.

After I left NY, it did bother me that I could call Dad on the phone and talk
30 minutes but I could call my mother and we'd talk for two hours. When I left
NY, my mother and I weren't on very good terms. Talking on the phone is
something I don't care for very much.

I am an awful lot like my Dad so it wasn't too hard for me to see past the
surface. My mother was one I never could figure out. We see very little eye to
eye. My parents weren't a very good match. 8-/

Mom doesn't hear a whole lot about Linda. She feels that unless children are
involved, there's no point in getting married. So that's not a subject I'm
going to talk to her about.

Dad would have listened to anything I had to say. He was never too tired, or
too busy. When my first wife asked him what did he think of her marrying his
son, this is what he said:

"All I'm going to tell you is what my Dad told me; you marry her, she's your
problem."
Xenos the Elder - 25 Jun 2005 22:47 GMT
> Ummmmm, no, not really. My ex was the epitome of the good father,
> supportive, verbally encouraging, affectionate, all that to our son,
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
>
>>So is your ex-husband in any way similar to your dad?

Well .......
I was thinking for the biggest part of my life that most people where
most of the time OK.
I don't think so anymore.
There is something very terrible wrong with people and the society and
things won't get better so long people and the society refuse to talk
about it.
How free are well trained domestic animals and how happy can domestic
animals bee?
Is the parrot really happy in the living room?
I am actually talking about the animal homo sapiens.
Barbara Didrichsen - 25 Jun 2005 01:11 GMT
[snip]

>Needless to say there are no Father's Day cards that say "I have
>desperately sought a sign of your approval all my life, and you have
>consistently let me down. But I love you anyway."

I'm struck, in reading this, by my own recognition of how many times
I've been absolutely tongue-tied by my emotions - wanting to say the
things I want to say but fearing that if I said them, I'd be rejected.

Maybe you have the same problem.  I wonder if your dad does, too?  How
do you *start* a conversation about things you never said before?
Maybe it's just easier to leave things as they are - maybe no one will
notice.

There's only one problem here:  if neither one of you strikes up the
courage to say *something*, there will come a time when it's too late.

One of the things I'm incredibly grateful for is that my dad and I
managed to discuss the undiscussable things before he died.  It
doesn't mitigate the grief, but I do know that any regrets I had about
things left undone were minimal.

Barb
 
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