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Family Forum / Parenting / Parenting / August 2006How to tie shoelaces
How the heck do you teach a child to do it? DS1 is 5 1/2 yo. Tried this morning, again. He couldn't/wouldn't even copy holding the laces 5cm from the thumb knot (the knot you make to start), let alone *make* the thumb knot. Fortunately his school shoes have velcro -- a deliberate choice by me! At what age do kids typically learn to tie their shoelaces? And how do you teach it?  SignatureChookie -- Sydney, Australia (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply) "Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled." Kerry Cue "Chookie" <ehrebeniuk@fowlspambegone.com.au> wrote in > At what age do kids typically learn to tie their shoelaces? And how do > you > teach it? Hunter was 6yo and Luke was 4yo. I teach the make one loop and then rap the other lace around it but there are many many ways to tie a shoe. I googled it once. I thought Hunter would never learn but he finally did ;-) Luke was quite young IMO but he has pretty good fine motor skills and is extremely determined about things like that. SignatureNikki, mama to Hunter 4/99 Luke 4/01 Brock 4/06 Ben 4/06 > At what age do kids typically learn to tie their shoelaces? And how do you > teach it? I learned it before kindergarten, watching either Romper Room or Hobo Kelly on TV. This means I learned the "two rabbit ear" method, whereas my husband learned the "rabbit through the hole" method. Which, of course, we each tried to teach the kids, confusing them greatly, until they learned it in kindergarten with yet another story: Something about snakes in the grass, then the bunny hops up, another bunny chases around it into the hole". I think they tie shoes like my husband. I do know, from coaching and watching years of soccer, that it isn't apparent to most kids what you mean by double knotting your shoes. :-) > How the heck do you teach a child to do it? DS1 is 5 1/2 yo. Tried this > morning, again. He couldn't/wouldn't even copy holding the laces 5cm from [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > you > teach it? DS is 5yo and he's got the first step down, crossing one lace under the other. Now, I've just got to show him to make two bunny ears and cross them again. The two bunny ears method was what I remember learning first as a child, then I graduated to the more common method later on. Anyway, to answer your question, our school requires the children know how by first grade, because the teachers don't want to tie 30 children's shoelaces several times a day. > DS is 5yo and he's got the first step down, crossing one lace under > the other. Now, I've just got to show him to make two bunny ears [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > requires the children know how by first grade, because the teachers > don't want to tie 30 children's shoelaces several times a day. I must say that the more you talk about your school, the more I dislike it. I'm glad it's a good fit for you, but gosh, it seems like they are just chock full of pressure about almost everything. Do they require kids to wear tie shoes too? One of the most popular styles of sneakers at the moment are no-tie. They are permanently laced with somewhat elastic laces, and you just slip them on. Then of course there are the Velcro styles that have been around for years. I also found that if I tie the shoes in the morning with a double knot, they will generally stay tied until I untie them. My kids are 8 and 11. They can both tie their shoes, but the 8 year old still has problems getting a tie that's really tight enough. I can't honestly remember when they each learned though. Bizby >> DS is 5yo and he's got the first step down, crossing one lace under the >> other. Now, I've just got to show him to make two bunny ears and cross [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > just chock full of pressure about almost everything. Do they require kids > to wear tie shoes too? No, they don't require them to wear tie shoes. The dress code is very strict, though. It's really not a good school for everyone, as you can see. The level they are teaching at is just right for DS, but too advanced for some kids. I don't think that should be, but oh well. At least it suits DS. They are very strict about a lot of things, but DS likes structure, so it works for him. One of my coworkers put her children in that school because they did not like structure and she wanted the kids to be more structured. It was a complete clash for them. When she finally transferred them out, she said they were so happy because there were fewer rules. > > DS is 5yo and he's got the first step down, crossing one lace under > > the other. Now, I've just got to show him to make two bunny ears [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > sneakers at the moment are no-tie. They are permanently laced with > somewhat elastic laces, and you just slip them on. Some schools don't permit the elastic type of sneakers for gym (although I suppose they would permit them other days); I can't recall the reason -- perhaps they're not sufficiently supportive for athletics? I think that kids are learning to tie shoes later and later because of velcro. One learned in kindergarten (and promptly demanded only velcro sneakers for the next several years); I think some kids at his school didn't learn until much later than that! I don't think I'd be offended by or fine a rule that kids either have to tie their own shoes by 1st grade too onerous, although a *must tie* rule would be. What would they do with kids with fine motor skills delays, with or without an IEP? Barbara > Some schools don't permit the elastic type of sneakers for gym > (although I suppose they would permit them other days); I can't > recall > the reason -- perhaps they're not sufficiently supportive for > athletics? This would seem to be a strange rule for grade school where athletics don't tend to be too intense. And poorly tied shoes, or those that have come untied and are dragging laces around would seem to be more of a danger. I'm not doubting that schools exist with that rule, but it seems a misguided rule for grade school to me. Requiring proper shoes for specific sports like baseball or soccer makes a bit more sense. But I tie my kids' shoes for those events even though they're capable of tying their own shoes, because I know I can tie them tighter and more securely. > I don't think I'd be offended > by or fine a rule that kids either have to tie their own shoes by > 1st > grade too onerous, although a *must tie* rule would be. I'm sorry, but I can't parse this sentence. What's the difference between "have to tie their own shoes" and "must tie"? And what does "either" refer to? > What would > they do with kids with fine motor skills delays, with or without an > IEP? I suppose that with an IEP, the school would have to work with them. Without one....numerous fruitless parent consultations? Bizby > "Barbara" <mom_2_one@hotmail.com> wrote in message Requiring proper shoes > for specific sports like baseball or soccer makes a bit more sense. But I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "have to tie their own shoes" and "must tie"? And what does "either" > refer to? I read it as she's okay with a rule about kids having to tie their own shoes if they are wearing tie shoes, but she doesn't like a rule where they must wear tie shoes and therefore must tie them. >> "Barbara" <mom_2_one@hotmail.com> wrote in message Requiring proper >> shoes for specific sports like baseball or soccer makes a bit more [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > own shoes if they are wearing tie shoes, but she doesn't like a rule > where they must wear tie shoes and therefore must tie them. Oh, I see. I'd agree with that too. I can understand not wanting to tie 20 pairs of shoes. Bizby > > Some schools don't permit the elastic type of sneakers for gym > > (although I suppose they would permit them other days); I can't [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > even though they're capable of tying their own shoes, because I know I > can tie them tighter and more securely. Welll, the gym dept of our school must have seen those shoes fly off too many kids to permit them. Don't the kids play baseball and soccer in gym at your school? Our kids do, along with basketball (and, heaven help me, the boys organized their own football league at recess). > > I don't think I'd be offended > > by or fine a rule that kids either have to tie their own shoes by [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > between "have to tie their own shoes" and "must tie"? And what does > "either" refer to? Well, if you MUST tie, then the rule applies even if the kid is wearing velcro. Sort of like the tests that the local public schools make kids pass in 3d grade and -- I forget what other grades. Pass or repeat. I'd object to that. But I have no problem with a rule that if you wear shoes with ties, then you have to know how to tie them. Barbara >> > Some schools don't permit the elastic type of sneakers for gym >> > (although I suppose they would permit them other days); I can't [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Welll, the gym dept of our school must have seen those shoes fly off > too many kids to permit them. IME, the shoes most likely to fly off are tie shoes that have either come untied or have become loosened because the kids slide them off and on without untying and retying them. I understand that you were only saying the rule exists and not necessarily defending it, so I'm not trying to argue with you, only saying that it still doesn't make sense to me. > Don't the kids play baseball and soccer > in gym at your school? > Our kids do, along with basketball (and, heaven > help me, the boys organized their own football league at recess). Not in specialized cleated shoes like they would on a team. > Well, if you MUST tie, then the rule applies even if the kid is > wearing [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > wear > shoes with ties, then you have to know how to tie them. Yes, I agree with this. Bizby >> How the heck do you teach a child to do it? DS1 is 5 1/2 yo. Tried this >> morning, again. He couldn't/wouldn't even copy holding the laces 5cm [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > first grade, because the teachers don't want to tie 30 children's > shoelaces several times a day. Just wondering .. if the school "requires" to know how to tie their shoes by the first grade, what do they do if the child doesn't? My 7 year old can't do it ... and I'm no longer pushing her ... as it stands I'll do what I can to buy her non tie shoes .. but I can't always do that. So the teacher is going to have to tie a shoe here and there. > >> How the heck do you teach a child to do it? DS1 is 5 1/2 yo. Tried this > >> morning, again. He couldn't/wouldn't even copy holding the laces 5cm [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I'll do what I can to buy her non tie shoes .. but I can't always do that. > So the teacher is going to have to tie a shoe here and there. Well, one of the kindergarten teachers at my previous school refuses to tie children's shoes-or to teach children to tie their own shoes, claiming that's the parent's job. The result is that in her class, the few kids who are pretty advanced in this area end up tying anyone's shoes who need tying (either those who are almost 6 starting kindergarten due to cutoffs, were retained, or were redshirted a year-from what I've seen most young 5s simply can't do it yet, while most 6's are at least heading in that direction), or the kids' shoes stay untied until they go to PE or music, where the teachers absolutely WILL tie shoelaces because it's a danger to the child for them to be untied since the kids are up and moving.I'm sure she thinks she's teaching a great lesson in independence, and she makes a big deal about "not letting parents walk all over you", but really, she's just taking the annoyance off her back and putting it on someone else's-and probably delaying the day when the children DO tie their own shoes since she's not providing practice in that area. >Well, one of the kindergarten teachers at my previous school refuses to tie >children's shoes-or to teach children to tie their own shoes, claiming [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >absolutely WILL tie shoelaces because it's a danger to the child for them to >be untied since the kids are up and moving. The kids don't get up and move around the classroom? I would be too concerned about a child tripping and hurting themselves in my classroom. Nan > Just wondering .. if the school "requires" to know how to tie their > shoes by the first grade, what do they do if the child doesn't? I wondered that myself. There isn't much they can do beyond talk to the parent. > My 7 year old can't do it ... and I'm no longer pushing her ... as > it stands I'll do what I can to buy her non tie shoes .. but I can't > always do that. Why not? With non-tie shoes so popular, I actually have more trouble finding tie shoes for younger kids. > So the teacher is going to have to tie a shoe here and there. I don't think the teachers at our school refuse to tie shoes, and other than a note home during kindergarten encouraging parents to work with their kids, the school doesn't really even push the issue. Nonetheless, as Donna has seen, I've seen kids tying each other's shoes. In fact, the kids seem to ask each other before going to a teacher, and the kids that can do it well are somewhat "stars" in kindergarten. Bizby >> Just wondering .. if the school "requires" to know how to tie their >> shoes by the first grade, what do they do if the child doesn't? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Why not? With non-tie shoes so popular, I actually have more trouble >finding tie shoes for younger kids. They happen to be more popular this year. However (and I'm not speaking for Knit Chic, only myself) they are the pricier brands such as Skechers, Nike, etc. I happened to be lucky enough to find Champion brand less expensive at PayLess Shoes, and DD liked them, so I was willing to pay more than $20 for them. Not all parents can afford to shell out $30+ for shoes, especially when kids are outgrowing them quickly! As their feet get bigger, the choices for velcro tabbed shoes dwindles greatly, and the pricier brands are the only ones available. Nan > Not all parents can afford to shell out $30+ for shoes, especially > when kids are outgrowing them quickly! As their feet get bigger, > the > choices for velcro tabbed shoes dwindles greatly, and the pricier > brands are the only ones available. I didn't like velcro, and so I always looked for laces, and sometimes had trouble finding those. So I guess I was looking at it from a different perspective. Bizby >> Not all parents can afford to shell out $30+ for shoes, especially >> when kids are outgrowing them quickly! As their feet get bigger, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >had trouble finding those. So I guess I was looking at it from a >different perspective. I understand. I send DD to school in non-tie shoes because I don't want her teacher to have to tie her shoes on gym day. Nan > I understand. I send DD to school in non-tie shoes because I don't > want her teacher to have to tie her shoes on gym day. Gym day? We have gym every day in grade school! Bizby >> I understand. I send DD to school in non-tie shoes because I don't >> want her teacher to have to tie her shoes on gym day. > >Gym day? We have gym every day in grade school! > >Bizby Our elementary does, too. But each class has it's own slot, so my dd's 1st grade classroom has it on Fri afternoon. Nan >>> I understand. I send DD to school in non-tie shoes because I >>> don't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Our elementary does, too. But each class has it's own slot, so my > dd's 1st grade classroom has it on Fri afternoon. What I mean is that every class has gym every day. Up until last year they had gym four days a week -- every day except "block day" when they had art, music and library. They've changed it now though, so they have art one day, music another, library another, Spanish another and....can't remember what on the fifth day. But they all have gym every day. Bizby >What I mean is that every class has gym every day. Up until last year >they had gym four days a week -- every day except "block day" when [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Bizby Our school system doesn't have that kind of schedule until middle school. Nan >>What I mean is that every class has gym every day. Up until last >>year [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Our school system doesn't have that kind of schedule until middle > school. Well, it's different from middle school in that it's the entire class going to one class or the other. Also, they are with their homeroom teacher most of the day, it's only PE and that one other class that they troop off to another teacher. DD is in middle school this year, and she does not have gym every day. Her school is on the block system, so she has two schedules that she switches between day by day. One day is PE then math then science then language arts, and the next is Math then social studies, then "exploratory" (band + elective) then language arts. I find it very confusing to have to remember which day is what, but I guess the kids get used to it. The periods are 90 minutes long, and since they have math and language arts every day, the end result is that they have almost twice as much in those two subjects as I did in school, and only half as much time for electives. Bizby > What I mean is that every class has gym every day. Up > until last year they had gym four days a week -- every day [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and....can't remember what on the fifth day. But they all > have gym every day. then your school is unusual. in funding cuts, arts & gym in lower grades are among the first things to go. in many elementary schools recess is severely curtailed or non- existant too. and then people wonder why kids are so squirmy & antsy in class... lee SignatureQuestion with boldness even the existence of god; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. - Thomas Jefferson > then your school is unusual. in funding cuts, arts & gym in >lower grades are among the first things to go. in many [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >class... >lee Well, I'd say her school is unusual, but not for the same reasons. Our school has a full-time gym teacher on staff. But there are so many classes that each one gets one slot per week. I'm not sure when recess is cut back, but E still gets plenty of outdoor time, in 1st grade. I know 2nd grade also has recess. Nan >> What I mean is that every class has gym every day. Up >> until last year they had gym four days a week -- every day [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > and then people wonder why kids are so squirmy & antsy in > class... Yes, the more I read this group, the luckier I feel in my school. Bizby >> Not all parents can afford to shell out $30+ for shoes, especially >> when kids are outgrowing them quickly! As their feet get bigger, the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > trouble finding those. So I guess I was looking at it from a different > perspective. FWIW you can buy a couple different things for tie shoes that replacet he laces so you don't actually have to tie them. They are really inexpensive. I don't spend a lot of time shoe shopping so I don't look around a lot. I don't like character shoes so end up buying tie shoes a lot. My aunt gets soooo freaking annoyed. She sees no point in buying tie shoes for kids. Both my kids can tie their shoes but they are loose so I will sometimes do it. SignatureNikki, mama to Hunter 4/99 Luke 4/01 Brock 4/06 Ben 4/06 > FWIW you can buy a couple different things for tie shoes that replacet he > laces so you don't actually have to tie them. They are really inexpensive. When I broke my arm my daughter replaced all my tie shoes with these elastic locking laces used for triathalons. Pretty cheap (around $2) and you never have to tie your shoes again. They come in lots of cool colors also. > How the heck do you teach a child to do it? DS1 is 5 1/2 yo. Tried this > morning, again. He couldn't/wouldn't even copy holding the laces 5cm from [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > you > teach it? I remember wondering the same thing, and finding one of the most difficult parts of parenthood ;) I thought she would never get it. I think she was 6 ish when she finally did, and I know some of her friends were even later. She used to try to always get us to do it for her, but we insisted that at least most of the time, she at least had a go. They'll get the idea eventually, just one step at a time. Jen > How the heck do you teach a child to do it? DS1 is 5 1/2 yo. Tried this > morning, again. He couldn't/wouldn't even copy holding the laces 5cm from the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > At what age do kids typically learn to tie their shoelaces? And how do you > teach it? Ds was at least five or six when he got it down. We finally separated it from shoes and used a small diameter rope tied to the back of the dining room chair. He was able to more easily see what he was doing, the rope was larger and easier to handle [don't use nylon rope as it is slippery and doesn't hold knots as nicely] and he could stand or sit as he chose. Several days of prescribed practicing were used after he got it so he could develop more confidence. The bunny ear method others describe is the most common i've heard of. There are, however, on line sources with many other methods, some of which result in quicker tied knots. -Aula >How the heck do you teach a child to do it? DS1 is 5 1/2 yo. Tried this >morning, again. He couldn't/wouldn't even copy holding the laces 5cm from the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >At what age do kids typically learn to tie their shoelaces? And how do you >teach it? E (6 you) hasn't learned yet. I just recently bought her shoes with a "Z strap" that has velcro on one end. Nan > How the heck do you teach a child to do it? DS1 is 5 1/2 yo. Tried this > morning, again. He couldn't/wouldn't even copy holding the laces 5cm from the > thumb knot (the knot you make to start), let alone *make* the thumb knot. > Fortunately his school shoes have velcro -- a deliberate choice by me! > > At what age do kids typically learn to tie their shoelaces? IME, 6-7. > And how do you > teach it? I used to work at the kid's drop off at a YMCA. This is one thing I taught to the kids because I had 1-1.5 unstructured hours with each of them every day, so I looked for positive ways to use that time. I used the "Here's the tree, the rabbit runs around the tree and into the hole" method. -l. > How the heck do you teach a child to do it? DS1 is 5 1/2 yo. Tried this > morning, again. He couldn't/wouldn't even copy holding the laces 5cm from the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > At what age do kids typically learn to tie their shoelaces? And how do you > teach it? Shaina learned to tie her shoes quite late. I don't recall exactly, but she's was probably 8ish before the mastered the 'bunny ears' method, and several years older before she she could do the standard tie. I think she had (and has) really small hands and just couldn't hold onto the loops without them slipping apart. (I still remember that on the kindergarten readiness list, that was the ONLY skill she didn't have at 5 1/2!) (Even up to a couple of years ago she had trouble with it. She just doesn't do it that often [most of her shoes don't have laces, and those that do she still tends to just slip on and off without tying/untying them.) Naomi > How the heck do you teach a child to do it? DS1 is 5 1/2 yo. Tried this > morning, again. He couldn't/wouldn't even copy holding the laces 5cm from [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > you > teach it? I think a lot of times, kids don't learn to tie shoes until they join a soccer or baseball team because those shoes require tying. As a coach, I spent a lot of time tying kids shoes. Jeff > I think a lot of times, kids don't learn to tie shoes until they join a > soccer or baseball team because those shoes require tying. As a coach, I > spent a lot of time tying kids shoes. As a coach I bought my whole team those "sweet spot" things (elastic sleeves that go over the laces on soccer shoes) so that I wouldn't spend the whole game tying shoes. It worked out well. I've also seen teams that have a parent assigned as "shoe tyer". They would double tie all shoes before the game, and then stand in a certain place so kid's who's shoes still came untied would run to them to get the shoes retied. I certainly can understand that a teacher wouldn't want to tie all the kids shoes. I think it is a parent's responsibility to send kids to school in clothes the child can handle on their own. If a child cannot yet tie their own shoes, then they get sent to school in shoes that don't have ties. How hard is that. >> I think a lot of times, kids don't learn to tie shoes until they join a >> soccer or baseball team because those shoes require tying. As a coach, I [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > How > hard is that. Although it's a fine motor skill, that seems, to me, to maybe have a place in the classroom. Just like learning to write and use scissors, they could also learn to tie knots and shoelaces. Jen >>> I think a lot of times, kids don't learn to tie shoes until they join a >>> soccer or baseball team because those shoes require tying. As a coach, I [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > in the classroom. Just like learning to write and use scissors, they > could also learn to tie knots and shoelaces. It's a skill that kids will learn without the school's help when they need to, like when they want to wear real basketball shoes, soccer shoes or baseball shoes. It is a fine motor skill better taught at home or in preschool or maybe kindergarten. I can't imagine how you would justify paying a teacher $50/hr to teach a kid to tie shoes when probably 1/2 the kids already know how. Jeff > Jen >> Although it's a fine motor skill, that seems, to me, to maybe have a >> place in the classroom. Just like learning to write and use scissors, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > paying a teacher $50/hr to teach a kid to tie shoes when probably 1/2 the > kids already know how. But like I said, they could be learning other knots as well. We don't pay much for school, but we pay a lot for preschool/kinder. There are a lot of things taught in the early years of school that some of the kids already know. Jen > >> Although it's a fine motor skill, that seems, to me, to maybe have a > >> place in the classroom. Just like learning to write and use scissors, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > things taught in the early years of school that some of the kids already > know. As long as knot-tying isn't a skill on the standardized test, it's likely to get short shrift in public schools these days. There's barely time to teach everything previously taught in 1st grade in kindergarten as is-let alone time to develop life skills like tying, buttoning, etc (which I know were things which we were given practice doing via free play and centers in kindergarten 30 or so years ago-my kindergarten report card includes things like tying shoes and walking up and down stairs alternating feet-and reading in kindergarten wasn't a requirement). > Jen > How the heck do you teach a child to do it? DS1 is 5 1/2 yo. Tried this > morning, again. He couldn't/wouldn't even copy holding the laces 5cm from the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > At what age do kids typically learn to tie their shoelaces? And how do you > teach it? Haven't reached that stage yet with DS, but I do recall reading a book by the mother of a girl with Down's Syndrome, who had the bright idea of teaching her by creating a set-up with two laces of different colours to be tied together in a bow - I think she attached them to a board or a cloth, though I forget that detail. Apparently it was much easier for her when she could see which lace was which and hence follow the pattern of what she was doing with them, and she learned within a few days. The book said that a few friends of the family tried the same thing with their children and found it helped them a great deal as well. All the best, Sarah Signaturehttp://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com "That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell > How the heck do you teach a child to do it? DS1 is 5 1/2 yo. Tried > this morning, again. He couldn't/wouldn't even copy holding the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > At what age do kids typically learn to tie their shoelaces? And how > do you teach it? My 5.5 year old still can't do this but we don't practice very often, either, his school shoes fasten with velcro just like 80% of his fellow preppies. My older children were around 6 and in Year One before they learnt this skill and one does it the bunny ears way while the other uses the over-and-around method. Has anyone mentioned the skipping rope method in this thread? I'm sure I read about it in this newsgroup or a similar one within the last year or so and I intend to try it with my son soon. Apparently the thickness of the rope makes it easier for the child to work out the mechanics of the task before transferring the method to fiddly little laces and they are supposed to start with the rope around their waists. Tai >How the heck do you teach a child to do it? DS1 is 5 1/2 yo. Tried this >morning, again. He couldn't/wouldn't even copy holding the laces 5cm from the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >At what age do kids typically learn to tie their shoelaces? And how do you >teach it? Song that teaches how to tie shoes. Playable with quicktime or realaudio http://www.musick8.com/html/current_tune.tpl?volumeid=V16_3&tunenum=13 Pdf file with graphic illustration can be dled here: http://www.musick8.com/html/downloaddisplay.tpl?cart=11569048445056415&volumeid= V16_3&dwnID=151&type=PDF -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
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