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Toys again: for 2-year-old

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Gia - 25 Nov 2006 06:05 GMT
I am trying to find a good educational toy for a 2-year-old girl.
Ideally, it would help with the numbers, letters, and shapes in a fun,
interactive way.

(Having said what I wish, though, my child has recently become very
interested in pretend-cooking, so the thought of a play kitchen crossed
my mind. This is not as educational as I'd like it to be, but it's a
possibility.)

In any case, please suggest good toys that will entartain, but also
teach a curious 25-month-old.  
Gia
-L. - 25 Nov 2006 07:09 GMT
> I am trying to find a good educational toy for a 2-year-old girl.
> Ideally, it would help with the numbers, letters, and shapes in a fun,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> teach a curious 25-month-old.
> Gia

http://www.amazon.com/LeapFrog-10170-Learning-Friends-Phonics/dp/B00005MA07/sr=1
-2/qid=1164438379/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-0158294-2217476?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games


LeapFrog Learning Friends Phonics Bus - teaches letters, sounds, words
that have that sound and the ABC song.  Plus the characters come out
for play, and each plays a different instrument when inserted in the
"driver's seat" of the bus.  DS is almost 3 and loves this thing - he's
had it for just over a year.  It runs about $19.99 at KMart or Target.

-L.
Chookie - 25 Nov 2006 10:17 GMT
> I am trying to find a good educational toy for a 2-year-old girl.
> Ideally, it would help with the numbers, letters, and shapes in a fun,
> interactive way.

They're called books.

> (Having said what I wish, though, my child has recently become very
> interested in pretend-cooking, so the thought of a play kitchen crossed
> my mind. This is not as educational as I'd like it to be, but it's a
> possibility.)

If you don't think playing at cooking is educational, you need to broaden your
understanding of education.  You need an understanding of the world to
understand what you are reading.

Signature

Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Jen - 25 Nov 2006 11:36 GMT
>I am trying to find a good educational toy for a 2-year-old girl.
> Ideally, it would help with the numbers, letters, and shapes in a fun,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> In any case, please suggest good toys that will entartain, but also
> teach a curious 25-month-old.

All forms of play are educational for children.  Don't get too bogged down
with teaching academic type things.  There's plenty of time to learn the
ABC's.  These early years are for fun and exploration.  Cooking is
educational too.

Jen
Sue - 25 Nov 2006 13:17 GMT
Everything is educational to a 2-year-old. Just get her things that she is
interested in and don't worry about the educational aspect because she
learns something with everything she does.
Signature

Sue (mom to three girls)

> I am trying to find a good educational toy for a 2-year-old girl.
> Ideally, it would help with the numbers, letters, and shapes in a fun,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> teach a curious 25-month-old.
> Gia
Chookie - 26 Nov 2006 03:55 GMT
> Everything is educational to a 2-year-old. Just get her things that she is
> interested in and don't worry about the educational aspect because she
> learns something with everything she does.

Beaut summary!

<applauds>

Signature

Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Donna Metler - 25 Nov 2006 13:28 GMT
Go with the play kitchen! She can learn colors for vegetables and fruits,
count different items in the kitchen, and if you get sets where many things
are labeled, will have tons of real-world exposure to environmental print,
which sparks interest in letters and reading much more than "the A says
aaaa" type toys. My 2 yr old loves to imitate me, so things like a small
broom and dust pan, rake for raking leaves, a bin of sand outside and
measuring cups, and anything "real" is a big deal. And I admit I'm enjoying
having a child who thinks sweeping the floor or wiping the table or washing
dishes is fun right now. And, again, there's tons of opportunities for
real-world learning.

As far as letters, numbers, colors, shapes, etc, my 2 yr old has learned
most of hers from Sesame Street. At least I assume that's what sparked the
interest, because one day she started asking me what various letters were,
and telling me to "read ABCs" on everything-and by the end of a several
month obsession, she had them down. Recently, it's been naming colors and
shapes on everything. Actually, it's been a relief to see more imaginative
play instead of "The lego is red. The lego is yellow. The lego is Orange"
for every single duplo in her bucket!
Ericka Kammerer - 25 Nov 2006 13:45 GMT
> I am trying to find a good educational toy for a 2-year-old girl.
> Ideally, it would help with the numbers, letters, and shapes in a fun,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> In any case, please suggest good toys that will entartain, but also
> teach a curious 25-month-old.  

    The vast majority of "teaching toys" are boring
and useless.  The "teaching toy" that actually works is
*you*.  Find something she enjoys, like cooking together,
and myriad teaching opportunities will present themselves.
At the same time, if you try to spend most of her play
time "teaching" her, she's likely to rebel.  When they
say that young children learn best through play, that's
exactly what they mean--real play, not a bunch of
drills disguised as play.
    I'm not saying you can't make games out of
sorting by colors or playing counting games or pointing
out letters and sounds as those things come up in life
and play, but I'd be very cautious about pushing the
educational toys and insisting that everything be
"educational."  Two year olds know darned well when
they're being pushed like that, and they can get
*very* rebellious about it--and no wonder!
    A play kitchen is considered so educational
that almost every preschool classroom spends quite a
bit of money and dedicates quite a bit of space in order
to have a play kitchen, and they won't even hold formal
lessons as the kids are using it.  If she would like a
play kitchen, by all means, let her play in either your
kitchen or a play kitchen.  You can spend a fortune
buying educational toys that she'll barely bother to
use.

Best wishes,
Ericka
Nan - 25 Nov 2006 14:00 GMT
>I am trying to find a good educational toy for a 2-year-old girl.
>Ideally, it would help with the numbers, letters, and shapes in a fun,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>teach a curious 25-month-old.  
>Gia

I also vote for the play kitchen!  So-called "Educational" toys, while
looking good to parents, tend to be booooring to kids once they've
pushed the buttons and heard all the sounds.

Play, play, play is more educational than any electronic teaching toy.

Nan
Jeff - 25 Nov 2006 15:25 GMT
>>I am trying to find a good educational toy for a 2-year-old girl.
>>Ideally, it would help with the numbers, letters, and shapes in a fun,
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Nan

Yeah, keep up this educational play thing: not only will she love learning,
but she will even develop an imagination. What more do you want?

Jeff
toypup - 26 Nov 2006 01:14 GMT
> I also vote for the play kitchen!  So-called "Educational" toys, while
> looking good to parents, tend to be booooring to kids once they've
> pushed the buttons and heard all the sounds.
>
> Play, play, play is more educational than any electronic teaching toy.

This is being echoed so many times, I must put my two cents in.  DS loved
educational toys.  He couldn't get enough of them.  He learned his numbers
and letters all from the toys.  I even had him tell me about the "bowels."
I said, "bowels?"  He said, "Yes, _bowels_ -- a, e, i, o, u <accompanied by
the associated sounds>."  I was in shock, since I never taught him letters,
numbers, and I never heard his toys teach him vowels.  I asked him where he
learned them, and he said Leapster, at his daycare.  He was 3 yo.  DD, OTOH,
didn't care much for his educational toys, hasn't learned a thing from them,
so it is very individual.  She learns everything from books.  I'd say not
every kid thinks educational toys are boring, but go with educational toys
only if the kid likes the stuff.
Chookie - 26 Nov 2006 04:14 GMT
> > I also vote for the play kitchen!  So-called "Educational" toys, while
> > looking good to parents, tend to be booooring to kids once they've
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> every kid thinks educational toys are boring, but go with educational toys
> only if the kid likes the stuff.

I am getting confused here.  What is an "educational toy"?  Is it just
anything marketed as "Educational" to the Great Unwashed Masses?

I thought an "educational toy" was something like Duplo, wooden blocks,
nesting cups, or a Shape-O.  Things That Beep And Flash normally don't meet
the criteria for me -- they can usually only be used in limited ways, and I
think one of my criteria for Educational Toys is open-endedness.

Signature

Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Stormlady - 26 Nov 2006 04:20 GMT
I think in this instance, educational toy, is an electronic one that teached
the child something, like letters, numbers, colors, etc.  Of the type that
when you push a button it says, "A" , or "blue" to correspond to the button
pushed.

such as this
http://www.amazon.com/VTech-Alphabet-Electronic-Fundamentals-Reading/dp/B00000IRU2'

>> > I also vote for the play kitchen!  So-called "Educational" toys, while
>> > looking good to parents, tend to be booooring to kids once they've
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> I
> think one of my criteria for Educational Toys is open-endedness.
toypup - 26 Nov 2006 04:57 GMT
>> > I also vote for the play kitchen!  So-called "Educational" toys, while
>> > looking good to parents, tend to be booooring to kids once they've
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> I
> think one of my criteria for Educational Toys is open-endedness.

I think you know what it means in this thread.  Just because a kid has
Leapfrog toys doesn't mean he doesn't have other toys.  DS had Megabloks and
nesting cups and wooden blocks, but his great thrill was Leapfrog toys.
Nothing wrong with that.  He liked to learn from them, just like DD likes to
learn from books, and there's nothing open-ended about a board book.  She
sees her ladybug book with numbers and she counts through them every day
just like he had his Leapfrog bus and he said the letters every day.  Does
this mean DD doesn't play imaginatively because she likes to study the
numbers in a book?  Of course not.  The same with DS.

Is a board book with one number and picture per page educational?  Yes.  Is
a block on the Leapfrog train with one letter and picture per side
educational?  Just as educational as the book.
-L. - 26 Nov 2006 07:10 GMT
> I think you know what it means in this thread.  Just because a kid has
> Leapfrog toys doesn't mean he doesn't have other toys.  DS had Megabloks and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> a block on the Leapfrog train with one letter and picture per side
> educational?  Just as educational as the book.

I totally agree with everything you've posted.  I don't know anyone who
gives their child only "old fashioned" open-ended play toys.  If they
did, I'd feel sorry for their kid because he's missing out on some
really fun toys.  There are times when DS will focus on his wooden
blocks for hours, and other times, it's his kiddie lap top.  He
benefits from both types of toys.  Right now his favorite toys are his
Hot Wheels and his guitar (a real guitar) but in the past it was his
LeapFrog bus or his V-Tech barn which teaches colors, numbers,  animals
and their sounds.  They all have value.

-L.
Chookie - 26 Nov 2006 21:43 GMT
> I totally agree with everything you've posted.  I don't know anyone who
> gives their child only "old fashioned" open-ended play toys.If they
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> LeapFrog bus or his V-Tech barn which teaches colors, numbers,  animals
> and their sounds.  They all have value.

I've just Googled LeapFrog bus.

I can get a book that has all the good features of this bus without the loud
annoying voices.

Can't find much on the V-Tech barn.  It's a talking shape sorter, right?  
Well, I'd prefer one that keeps its thoughts to itself.

So no, IMO the electronics don't add value at all.

We do have some Toys That Beep And Flash, but not many.  Of the few we have,
this is my favourite:
http://www.babywizards.com/mumigoro1.html
It plays a jazz tune in pleasant tones, and entertains DS2 when he is stuck in
his cot while DH is ironing.  In general, I prefer toys that aren't made of
hard shiny plastic (coloured by experience of a Bad Daycare where every toy
looked the same after a while).  I like the fabric Lamaze toys, for example.  
And yep, we have wooden Thomas stuff.

DH and I both have a Thing about Pretend Computers.  DS1 and DS2 use our
computers under supervision.  And they do watch TV :-)

Not sure whether you'd be sorry for our kids or not, but either way, we really
don't need any more toys!

Signature

Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

toypup - 27 Nov 2006 00:13 GMT
>> I totally agree with everything you've posted.  I don't know anyone who
>> gives their child only "old fashioned" open-ended play toys.If they
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> loud
> annoying voices.

You can say the same thing the other way around.  I didn't find the sounds
loud and annoying.  DS didn't like books.  If you suggest I force the books,
I'd say that's a great way to make him hate books.  He likes them now, when
he's finally ready for them.  Children should be allowed to learn the way
they want.  That is the way they learn best.  If a child is into electronic
learning toys, go for it.  Not all children are into that.  Forcing
electronic learning toys is no better than forcing any other toys.

> Can't find much on the V-Tech barn.  It's a talking shape sorter, right?
> Well, I'd prefer one that keeps its thoughts to itself.
>
> So no, IMO the electronics don't add value at all.

She didn't say they add value.  She said they have value.
Jen - 27 Nov 2006 07:00 GMT
Children should be allowed to learn the way
> they want.  That is the way they learn best.

I so agree with that.  My daughter wasn't that great at reading, until her
2nd grade teacher introduced the kids to the "Just" books -  "Just Kidding",
"Just Disgusting" etc.  She loved them so much she wanted her own, and we
haven't looked back, she's now a really excellent reader.

Jen
-L. - 27 Nov 2006 08:47 GMT
> You can say the same thing the other way around.  I didn't find the sounds
> loud and annoying.

We have a cookie monster pull toy that drives me insane, but mainly
because it goes off by itself in the middle of the night. ;) We also
have a V-tech vibrating giggle ball that is annoying, but J loved it
when he was a crawler.

> DS didn't like books.  If you suggest I force the books,
> I'd say that's a great way to make him hate books.  He likes them now, when
> he's finally ready for them.  Children should be allowed to learn the way
> they want.  That is the way they learn best.  If a child is into electronic
> learning toys, go for it.  Not all children are into that.  Forcing
> electronic learning toys is no better than forcing any other toys.

Agreed.  It's a matter of exposure.  You expose them to different
things and see what they have an affinity for.  I would never have
consciously bought hotwheels, but DS saw them, wanted them, loved them
and so is hooked.  We play all sorts of games with them from sorting
them by color to balancing them on things and lining them up in
different spacial configurations, and just playing with them like cars.
 I have purchased toys that he didn't really like at first but 6 or 9
months later, he thought they were great.  I just try to buy things
that I think have potential to help him grow  in in some way, or that I
think he will have fun with, or that he has a natural affinity for*.
I'd hate to think of his life if all he was exposed to were his books.

<snip>

> > So no, IMO the electronics don't add value at all.
>
> She didn't say they add value.  She said they have value.

Correctomundo.

-L.
(* J saw a guitar on a DVD we have and all he could talk about was the
"a-uitar"  so we bought him a student guitar and he loves it.  Had it
been up to me, he probably wouldn't have had such an item until age 6
or 7, at least.  But he wanted it loves it and is learning from it.  I
wouldn't feel any differently if  it was an electronic toy or a wooden
train or anything else.  They all have the potential to teach and none
is superior to others in terms of learning potential,  AFAIC.)
Chookie - 28 Nov 2006 08:01 GMT
> You can say the same thing the other way around.  I didn't find the sounds
> loud and annoying.  DS didn't like books.  If you suggest I force the books,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> learning toys, go for it.  Not all children are into that.  Forcing
> electronic learning toys is no better than forcing any other toys.

I agree with you.  You shouldn't force children to look at books when they are
no interested, any more than you should force them to play with anything else.  
BUT there should be a range of (interesting) things available for them to be
involved with.  I would guess that books are significantly less interesting to
DS2 atm than our two chickens, going simply on time spent!

Signature

Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

enigma - 28 Nov 2006 14:58 GMT
>> You can say the same thing the other way around.  I didn't
>> find the sounds loud and annoying.  DS didn't like books.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> less interesting to DS2 atm than our two chickens, going
> simply on time spent!

you'd better watch that... Boo was so interested in our first
2 chickens that we now have 35 chickens & will have more come
springtime... addictive little beasts. :)

and, yes, different kids enjoy different types of toys. Boo
*hates* "pretend" toys, things like toy chainsaws or kitchens
that don't really work make him angry & frustrated. even the
Easy-Bake oven was a bad choice for him. he's much happier
with the toaster oven.
as for the 'educational' toys, he dislike loud noises &
didn't really care for any of those when a toddler, except for
his Baby Tad (he liked the classical tunes). he's had a Leap
Pad since 16 months, that he used a lot until he got a
Leapster at 4 years, & Santa traded him that for a new L-Max
last year (all 3 of those have volume controls). on other toys
that made sounds, i found putting tape over the speaker helps
somewhat to tone down the noise. we used *lots* of tape...
but for the most part Boo doesn't really play, so toys are
really iffy around here. i'm so happy that he's reading now. i
can buy even more books :)

lee
Signature

Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if
there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of
blindfolded
fear. - Thomas Jefferson

Chookie - 29 Nov 2006 02:26 GMT
> > I would guess that books are significantly
> > less interesting to DS2 atm than our two chickens, going
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 2 chickens that we now have 35 chickens & will have more come
> springtime... addictive little beasts. :)

Not unless DS2 is considerably more amazing than even I think: they are both
hens!  WE can't keep up with the eggs as it is, so we will not be getting any
more!

Signature

Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

enigma - 29 Nov 2006 03:20 GMT
>> > I would guess that books are significantly
>> > less interesting to DS2 atm than our two chickens, going
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> think: they are both hens!  WE can't keep up with the eggs
> as it is, so we will not be getting any more!

well, our first 2 were a pair, (but Kate wasn't interested in
Cogburn or any of the subsequent roosters & she's the least
broody hen ever), so we were only getting one egg/day. so we
got 4 more pullets the next spring... that got us to 5ish
eggs/day (since hens only lay once every 27 to 48 hours or so
depending on breed) which was too many for the lone egg eater
in this house, so Boo started selling eggs at school.
then we had a fox problem & went down to 2 hens (having sent
Cogburn elsewhere to live because he was nasty), so i added 6
more pullets, and was given a couple Silkies.  the eggs sales
were going so well i added 9 *more* pullets this year. we got
rid of the bantam roos we had (again, they were nasty), & i
need to thin out the big roosters (7 is too many, but none of
these are evil incarnate). our main rooster is Spot (Speckled
Sussex) & i want to keep one black & one blue Orpington roo.
(and Coppertop because i just like him). i do want to add some
speckled Sussex hens...
lee
Signature

Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if
there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of
blindfolded
fear. - Thomas Jefferson

-L. - 27 Nov 2006 08:34 GMT
> I've just Googled LeapFrog bus.
>
> I can get a book that has all the good features of this bus without the loud
> annoying voices.

No you can't.
http://www.amazon.com/LeapFrog-10170-Learning-Friends-Phonics/dp/B00005MA07/sr=1
-2/qid=1164438379/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/103-0158294-2217476?ie=UTF8&s=toys-and-games


It has little frogs that come out for independent play, tells letter
names, sounds, and words that begin with that letter, sings the ABC
song and teaches the sounds of three different instruments.  J can play
with it by himself, and it taught him sounds at age 18 mos. No book can
do that through independant play.  Furthermore, there isn't anything
annoying about this particular toy.  We do have toys that are annoying,
but this isn't one of them.

> Can't find much on the V-Tech barn.  It's a talking shape sorter, right?

No.
http://www.vtechkids.com/product_page.cfm?productId=98

> Well, I'd prefer one that keeps its thoughts to itself.

You're incredibly short sighted.

> So no, IMO the electronics don't add value at all.

Once again, incredibly short sighted.

> We do have some Toys That Beep And Flash, but not many.  Of the few we have,
> this is my favourite:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> DH and I both have a Thing about Pretend Computers.  DS1 and DS2 use our
> computers under supervision.  And they do watch TV :-)

<shrug>  DS's laptop isn't supposed to be a substitute for his
computer.  It is something he plays with independently.

> Not sure whether you'd be sorry for our kids or not, but either way, we really
> don't need any more toys!

Kids who don't get such advantages many times get left behind.   Not
all, some.

-L.
Chookie - 28 Nov 2006 07:46 GMT
> > I've just Googled LeapFrog bus.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> annoying about this particular toy.  We do have toys that are annoying,
> but this isn't one of them.

Presumably the review I read talked about a different version, as none of the
pieces were removable and the sound was too loud.  But I can share a book with
my DSs to tell them the names of letters, sing the ABC song etc.  I can tell
them the names of most instruments from sound, too.

> > Can't find much on the V-Tech barn.  It's a talking shape sorter, right?
>
> No.
> http://www.vtechkids.com/product_page.cfm?productId=98

I tend to view small keyboards with suspicion.  Are the keys properly pitched,
do you know?  Most of the kiddy keyboards tend not to be.  As for the rest,
blech.  It's a book AND a keyboard AND a music-box AND a manipulative AND it
will teach you the alphabet.  There is probably a free set of (plastic) steak
knives about it somewhere.  Yawn.

> > Well, I'd prefer one that keeps its thoughts to itself.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Once again, incredibly short sighted.

Please explain why.

> > Not sure whether you'd be sorry for our kids or not, but either way, we
> > really don't need any more toys!
>
> Kids who don't get such advantages many times get left behind.   Not
> all, some.

ROFL, you picked the wrong woman to try that line on!  Have you been reading
too many educational toy catalogues lately?  It's not like you to be so
gullible.

Such toys are probably advantageous in culturally- and
financially-impoverished homes where there are no books, no music is played or
sung, there are few toys, and the parents communicate by means of a 1500-word
vocabulary.  They are probably useful in households where the first language
is not English.  Neither is true of my household, nor of yours IIRC.

It was a while back wehn I read about it, but I'm pretty sure that the big
predictors of educational attainment in children are the educational
attainment of the parents, and the number of books in the home.

Signature

Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Jen - 28 Nov 2006 09:35 GMT
>> > I've just Googled LeapFrog bus.
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
> predictors of educational attainment in children are the educational
> attainment of the parents, and the number of books in the home.

That's good.  We've got tonnes of books.  We all love them.  Fiction, and
non-fiction.

Jen
-L. - 29 Nov 2006 07:30 GMT
> Presumably the review I read talked about a different version, as none of the
> pieces were removable and the sound was too loud.  But I can share a book with
> my DSs to tell them the names of letters, sing the ABC song etc.  I can tell
> them the names of most instruments from sound, too.

Well, no sh.t.  The point is, the toy teaches when the child is alone
with it.  If a child cannot read himself, books can't do that, other
than to visually stimulate.  Plus such toys reinforce what is taught by
the parents.

> I tend to view small keyboards with suspicion.  Are the keys properly pitched,
> do you know?

If you mean pitch as in sound - I don't know - Why would anyone care?
It's not teaching exact notes. It teaches colors and numbers.  The
music is incidental.

> Most of the kiddy keyboards tend not to be.

So what?

>As for the rest,
> blech.  It's a book AND a keyboard AND a music-box AND a manipulative AND it
> will teach you the alphabet.

No alphabet.

>  There is probably a free set of (plastic) steak
> knives about it somewhere.  Yawn.

Your loss.   It's a fun toy.  DS still plays with it and he's had it a
couple of years.

> > > Well, I'd prefer one that keeps its thoughts to itself.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Please explain why.

I already have - at least twice.  As have others in this thread.

> > > Not sure whether you'd be sorry for our kids or not, but either way, we
> > > really don't need any more toys!
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> vocabulary.  They are probably useful in households where the first language
> is not English.  Neither is true of my household, nor of yours IIRC.

They are advantageous because they expose children to different things
and different ways of learning.  If you cannot see that, you are
short-sighted.  It's *exposure* that is important.

> It was a while back wehn I read about it, but I'm pretty sure that the big
> predictors of educational attainment in children are the educational
> attainment of the parents, and the number of books in the home.

Well, based on a number of people I know, that's total bullshit.
Anyone can make a study say anything they want.  Of course educated
parents will have educated children - that's a no-brainer.  They
probably didn't look at all of the different sorts of toys each child
had, nor how toys varied between the groups.  Educated parents have
books - again, a no-brainer - but most children have access to books
through a public library and school.  No one is arguing that books
aren't valuable - of course they are.  The point is, *all* toys have
value.  You just refuse to acknowlege that fact.  And not everything
can be taught through a book.  Children learn differently.  For some,
books are a good way to learn, for others, interactive electronic toys
are much more effective, and for others, other means (videos, songs,
dance) are more effective.  No one type of toy or teaching is superior
to another - in general.

-L.
Welches - 29 Nov 2006 15:34 GMT
>> Presumably the review I read talked about a different version, as none of
>> the
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> It's not teaching exact notes. It teaches colors and numbers.  The
> music is incidental.

Dh cares :-) He's got perfect pitch and it really hurts him. I think #1
might be the same way, she definitely is close if nothing else.
I don't think for a child who's randomly pressing buttons (as opposed to
learning to play tunes) it matters one iota.
If they're learning to play tunes it may matter, but if they're really
learning to play the piano you want to have full sized keys anyway.
Debbie

>> Most of the kiddy keyboards tend not to be.
>
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
>
> -L.
Ericka Kammerer - 29 Nov 2006 15:59 GMT
> Dh cares :-) He's got perfect pitch and it really hurts him. I think #1
> might be the same way, she definitely is close if nothing else.
> I don't think for a child who's randomly pressing buttons (as opposed to
> learning to play tunes) it matters one iota.
> If they're learning to play tunes it may matter, but if they're really
> learning to play the piano you want to have full sized keys anyway.

    Yes, if they're learning to play piano you should
have full-sized keys, and it doesn't matter as much otherwise.
However, the pitch matters regardless.  Experience of music
shapes our brains and how we perceive music, especially in
younger years.  Those little brains get settled into very
subtle nuances when it comes to different languages when
they're very young, shaping how they are able to understand
and produce speech sounds the rest of their lives.  The same
is true for music.

Best wishes,
Ericka
-L. - 29 Nov 2006 20:42 GMT
> > Dh cares :-) He's got perfect pitch and it really hurts him. I think #1
> > might be the same way, she definitely is close if nothing else.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> and produce speech sounds the rest of their lives.  The same
> is true for music.

Oh, please.  As if a kid is never going to hear any sound that is out
of pitch.  And if he does that it will affect his ability to play
music. How ridiculous.

-L.
Banty - 29 Nov 2006 21:44 GMT
>> > Dh cares :-) He's got perfect pitch and it really hurts him. I think #1
>> > might be the same way, she definitely is close if nothing else.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>of pitch.  And if he does that it will affect his ability to play
>music. How ridiculous.

"Oh please" what?

She didn't say that there'd be a problem if they *ever* heard a sound out of
pitch.

The sounds coming out of these early musical instruments form expectations as to
what pitches are.  In order for a child to develop an ear for pitch, he or she
needs to *hear* correct pitch.  And, yes, that affect the ability to play music
on most instruments.  And singing on pitch, for that matter.

Banty
Chookie - 30 Nov 2006 05:32 GMT
> > However, the pitch matters regardless.  Experience of music
> > shapes our brains and how we perceive music, especially in
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> of pitch.  And if he does that it will affect his ability to play
> music. How ridiculous.

THe point that you missed is not that a child will never hear a sound out of
pitch; it's that if he has a keyboard where the A isn't a true A, or the
relationships between notes are just a bit out, what he hears will become what
he perceives as right.  It will be much harder for him to develop a true ear
later on.

Signature

Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Chookie - 29 Nov 2006 22:55 GMT
> > Presumably the review I read talked about a different version, as none of
> > the pieces were removable and the sound was too loud.  But I can share a book
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Well, no sh.t.  The point is, the toy teaches when the child is alone
> with it.  

That's irrelevant -- I'm happy to join in with books.

> If a child cannot read himself, books can't do that, other
> than to visually stimulate.

Depends on the age of the child.  I have seen my 18mo sitting down with a
book, jabbering away to himself, and turning the pages in the correct
direction.  That's more than visual stimulation.

>   Plus such toys reinforce what is taught by the parents.

I assume you mean in the ABC sense as opposed to the "Ooh, shiny!" sense?  
Some do and some don't.  See the keyboard issue below.

> > I tend to view small keyboards with suspicion.  Are the keys properly
> > pitched, do you know?
>
>  If you mean pitch as in sound - I don't know - Why would anyone care?
> It's not teaching exact notes. It teaches colors and numbers.  The
> music is incidental.

No; the music is integral to the device.  A,B,C,D, and E have real values in
music.  If something is marked as an A in my house and it plays a note, it
plays a real A.  There is a big distinction between a key which *plays a note*
and a button which *makes a beep*.  If the toy doesn't make this distinction,
it isn't reinforcing what I'm 'teaching', for one thing, and secondly, it can
be very frustrating.  There wasn't much money when I was little and I still
remember my frustration that my toy xylophone couldn't carry a tune -- it went
'clink' no matter which key you hit.  As a result, my boys have a proper
xylophone and chime bars, assorted percussion instruments, and these days, a
keyboard too.

> > > > Well, I'd prefer one that keeps its thoughts to itself.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I already have - at least twice.  As have others in this thread.

Pardon me -- I thought you were making a further point.

> They are advantageous because they expose children to different things
> and different ways of learning.  If you cannot see that, you are
> short-sighted.  It's *exposure* that is important.

Exactly what ways of learning do Toys That Beep And Flash provide which I
cannot obtain elsewhere?  I suppose that's my basic premise:  they aren't
necessary because they don't teach anything unique or uniquely.

> > It was a while back wehn I read about it, but I'm pretty sure that the big
> > predictors of educational attainment in children are the educational
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> books - again, a no-brainer - but most children have access to books
> through a public library and school.

My impression (and it's all a bit hazy now, I'm afraid) is that these were the
*replicated* findings.  The books-in-the-home result was independent of
parental SES and educational attainment.  And the books had to be *in* the
home: access via libraries is not the same thing, unfortunately for my
profession.

> No one is arguing that books
> aren't valuable - of course they are.  The point is, *all* toys have
> value.  You just refuse to acknowlege that fact.  

The value of toys is relative to other toys, not absolute.  There are parents
here and elsewhere with serious reservations about the value of Barbie, Bratz
dolls, toy guns, toy soldiers, Monopoly, playing cards etc etc.  I  put TTBAF
low on the value list.  As I said before, we do have some; OTOH I did not buy
any of them except the Lamaze cot toy.  The reason I don't think they're
terribly 'educational' is that the things they teach are generally very simple
and obtainable elsewhere -- numbers and letters, for example -- and the
'interaction' is rather slight.  In addition, I find the flashing lights
annoying, the sounds harsh and the speakers of poor quality.  And very few
TTBAF come with an Australian accent (can you get toys with a Texas accent?)!

> And not everything
> can be taught through a book.  Children learn differently.  For some,
> books are a good way to learn, for others, interactive electronic toys
> are much more effective, and for others, other means (videos, songs,
> dance) are more effective.  No one type of toy or teaching is superior
> to another - in general.

'Interactive electronic toys' are not a teaching method.  One does learn by
reading, but you have to read a lot better than the average toddler to do it.  
In general, I believe that you have to have a *variety* of play experiences
available to children to enhance their development, but you don't need any
*particular* play experiences for development to occur in a normal child in a
middle-class family.  Therefore, I don't believe my children are missing out
because they don't have an extensive collection of Vtech-type toys.

Signature

Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

toypup - 30 Nov 2006 03:06 GMT
> In article <1164785412.461341.139470@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Exactly what ways of learning do Toys That Beep And Flash provide which I
> cannot obtain elsewhere?  I suppose that's my basic premise:  they aren't
> necessary because they don't teach anything unique or uniquely.

Why does it matter if they can learn it elsewhere?  If they enjoy learning
it through that toy, why not let them?
Chookie - 30 Nov 2006 05:24 GMT
> > In article <1164785412.461341.139470@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > Exactly what ways of learning do Toys That Beep And Flash provide which I
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Why does it matter if they can learn it elsewhere?  If they enjoy learning
> it through that toy, why not let them?

Reread the thread to find where I advocated the wholesale banning of TTBAF.  
And reread the thread to find who suggested that children without TTBAF might
be "left behind".  I am saying that TTBAF are not necessary and can be
annoying.

Signature

Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

toypup - 30 Nov 2006 06:41 GMT
>> > In article <1164785412.461341.139470@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>> > Exactly what ways of learning do Toys That Beep And Flash provide which
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> be "left behind".  I am saying that TTBAF are not necessary and can be
> annoying.

You didn't advocate banning, but you certainly give the impression that you
are very much against them.  I don't think they desrve such disdain.

I never said anything about children and "left behind."  That was someone
else.
Gia - 25 Nov 2006 17:24 GMT
Thank you for the suggestions! I might go with the play kitchen. They
have a number of choices at the local Toys R Us. Somehow, I wanted to
escape the stereotype of girls cooking, I guess.

As for books and blocks, we have tons of them already, so I was
wondering about something else that might give us a better start in
preschool. She is interested in letters and shapes, and I don't think
I'll be pushing these too forcefully  :)

My husband was considering a toddler laptop, but I didn't see one that
I liked yesterday at the store.
Gia

> I am trying to find a good educational toy for a 2-year-old girl.
> Ideally, it would help with the numbers, letters, and shapes in a fun,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> teach a curious 25-month-old.  
> Gia
Ericka Kammerer - 25 Nov 2006 18:25 GMT
> Thank you for the suggestions! I might go with the play kitchen. They
> have a number of choices at the local Toys R Us. Somehow, I wanted to
> escape the stereotype of girls cooking, I guess.

    I think that's a trap, too.  Many little boys
enjoy play kitchens tremendously as well.  Stereotyping
doesn't start there.  And really, when you get down to
it, the solution isn't to stop girls from cooking anyway.
It's to get boys *to* cook, so that both boys and girls
are competent cooks by the time they need to be.

> As for books and blocks, we have tons of them already, so I was
> wondering about something else that might give us a better start in
> preschool. She is interested in letters and shapes, and I don't think
> I'll be pushing these too forcefully  :)

    Any preschool worth its salt won't be pushing those
things either.  If you have to "get ready" for a preschool
(other than by providing appropriate social opportunities
and a rich environment for your child), it's not a developmentally
appropriate preschool.

> My husband was considering a toddler laptop, but I didn't see one that
> I liked yesterday at the store.

    Most of them are really abysmal, largely because
most are developmentally inappropriate.  Truly, there's
no silver bullet here.  It may seem like all these wonderful
toys will make your child a whiz kid, but they don't.  And
even if your child enjoys them, for most of them the fun
is very short-lived.  Best to let your friends and neighbors
spend the money and get the few moments of enjoyment
while visiting ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka
(whose kids have an embarrassing number of toys, including
the so-called educational ones, and is thus very familiar
with this phenomenon)
-L. - 27 Nov 2006 08:59 GMT
> My husband was considering a toddler laptop, but I didn't see one that
> I liked yesterday at the store.
> Gia

J's laptop is a Spiderman version - the only thing we don't like about
it is the fact that the screen is so small.  Other than that, it has
many letter and word games to play and will grow with the child.  J
will be 3 in January and he likes to take it in the car with him.  It's
light enough that he can carry it by himself and he knows what buttons
to push.  It's also sturdy enough that he can bang on it without harm.

http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=1-1/qid=1164617777/ref=sr_1_1/602-278372
4-4308621?ie=UTF8&asin=B000FO1EZQ


-L.
jeni_steers@yahoo.co.uk - 27 Nov 2006 09:00 GMT
> Thank you for the suggestions! I might go with the play kitchen. They
> have a number of choices at the local Toys R Us. Somehow, I wanted to
> escape the stereotype of girls cooking, I guess.

I wouldn't worry about that. My nephew had a toy dyson which he loved
and my ds (who is nearly 17 mths) will mostly likely get a kitchen when
he is two. I want him to learn about cooking so he can do it for us
when he is older ;).

To add to the educational debate - my sister and I were very envious of
my cousins Speak and Spell when we were younger. On the other hand we
created a very good Abba tribute band using a broom handle, large
margarine tub, some drawn on card keyboards and hairbrush mike.

Jeni
toto - 25 Nov 2006 18:40 GMT
>(Having said what I wish, though, my child has recently become very
>interested in pretend-cooking, so the thought of a play kitchen crossed
>my mind. This is not as educational as I'd like it to be, but it's a
>possibility.)

A play kitchen is actually extremely educational for this age.

By playing in a pretend kitchen, children:

learn what the roles of mothers and fathers and children are.
understands what it feels like to play at being somebody other
than himself.
learn how to use his imagination.
learn how to cooperate with other children.

Pretend play comes in several stages and it is a very important
part of childrens' cognitive learning.

The first stage is where kids pretend by mimicking... feeding
dolls, talking on the phone, etc.   The average for this is 12m
- 21m.  

Symbolic pretend may be a second stage of pretend.
If a child is pretending with a prop, and the prop is something
completely different... then are they mimicking or truely
pretending? I almost think it depends on the situation.
A child that picks up a block and pretends it's a piece of
food, or telephone... yes, it's more elaborate than just
using a toy phone as a phone, but at the same time it seems
closer to the first stage than the third, and probably falls
into something inbetween. Now, if someone uses a prop such
as a sippy cup to be a tree for a terradactyl and her nest....
that seems far more elaborate. How about a backyard is a lake
that a child is swimming in? Again, both are using 'props',
but both seem to be  'true pretend'

"True" pretend, is what is referred to as starting at 3 years.
That's where a child is pretending something is completely
different.  A child gets on all fours and barks like a dog,
is a basic example. A child pretends to be a princess, and
develops an elaborate story and plot around it.  Some kids bypass
this phase.

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
deja.blues - 26 Nov 2006 01:27 GMT
> I am trying to find a good educational toy for a 2-year-old girl.
> Ideally, it would help with the numbers, letters, and shapes in a fun,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> teach a curious 25-month-old.
> Gia

It's curious to me that I have trouble remembering what my kids played with
at age two.
The only thing that they really enjoyed and played with for a long time,
was a good value for the money,  and I didn't end up donating or throwing
away, was Duplo. All Hail Duplo! (and Lego)
Jen - 26 Nov 2006 07:00 GMT
>> I am trying to find a good educational toy for a 2-year-old girl.
>> Ideally, it would help with the numbers, letters, and shapes in a fun,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> was a good value for the money,  and I didn't end up donating or throwing
> away, was Duplo. All Hail Duplo! (and Lego)

My daughter still loves her Lego, and she's now 11.  Her imagination never
fails to amaze me.  She often gets the sets with where you're supposed to
make the specific things, but she constantly changes them into her own
creations.  And she loved Duplo when she was little.

Jen
Irene - 27 Nov 2006 17:14 GMT
> It's curious to me that I have trouble remembering what my kids played with
> at age two.
> The only thing that they really enjoyed and played with for a long time,
> was a good value for the money,  and I didn't end up donating or throwing
> away, was Duplo. All Hail Duplo! (and Lego)

Well, I'll just list some of my 2 yo dd's current favorite toys -
things that she either plays with for 20 minutes to an hour on a
regular basis, or on and off almost every day:

Playdoh with accessories
paint w/ easel (in an area without nice flooring)
Little People - the dollhouse is her favorite
Baby dolls (with accessories)
play kitchen (with food, pots, pans and dishes)

Secondary toys:
blocks - Megabloks or Duplo
books
toy train set
cash register
balls

I'm probably missing some things, and of course, she also plays with
her older brother's stuff, too.

Irene
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 26 Nov 2006 17:30 GMT
Gia, I'm the mom of three, and I think you need to redefine what you
mean by "teach". My experience with kids toys is that the basics are
best. By that I mean the tried and true. Blocks, books, stacking cups,
dolls, toy kitchen stuff, play houses, toy cars, a wagon, balls, dress
up - the stuff kids have been playing with for generations. Best
investment you can make is those basic items - the electronic stuff has
very limited play value.

You want kids to engage in imaginative play, in testing out the world
and their bodies. That's what they learn from.

When each of our kids was that age, their most favourite books were
word books, that were full of interesting pictures - when we read to
them, we'd be having fun pointing things out (where's the ducky?
Where's the red ball?) Here is a sample of one we had that was a huge
hit for years with the kids
http://www.amazon.com/First-Thousand-Words-English/dp/0794502822 (it
also comes in a pile of other languages if you are a bilingual
household or want to introduce another language - they even have a
Hebrew version).

Enduring hits in our house were plastic kitchen items (plates, pots,
tea sets) and toy food, a toy grocery cart and cash register. Toy
kitchen, toy washing machines (all made of tough plastic). These things
provided YEARS of play - they played house, they played store, they
played restaurant, they played picnic, they used them for everything
you can think of. We have a Little Tykes plastic play house in the
basement, and it gets used for all kinds of things as well. We have a
neighbour with two small girls, and when the second was born I gave
their two year old a plastic picnic set that included some play food,
and the parents both sought us out later to thank us - they were blown
away by how much their daughter LOVED pretending to serve tea, or make
dinner.

We have a huge supply of both foam and wooden blocks - the kids are now
8, 12 and 15 and they still play with them (mazes for the guinea pig,
cities, etc. etc.) Or they just pile them all up into huge towers and
knock them down.

A rocking horse got used a lot as did the plastic wagon, ride-em toys.
Dollhouses were beloved in various forms (including by the boys when
they were smaller). Dolls, carriages, doll beds, much loved - my oldest
son (the one who is now 15) had a doll he called Baby Susie he liked to
push around in her carriage when he was your child's age.  Plastic
vehicles like Little Tykes fire engines etc. provided tons of fun.

Think about learning in broader terms.

M
Welches - 26 Nov 2006 18:59 GMT
>I am trying to find a good educational toy for a 2-year-old girl.
> Ideally, it would help with the numbers, letters, and shapes in a fun,
> interactive way.

You've already got one. It's called your computer keyboard. #1 learnt all
her letters (upper and lower case) by typing on it at 24 months into Word.
Now buy her the pretend kitchen.
Debbie

> (Having said what I wish, though, my child has recently become very
> interested in pretend-cooking, so the thought of a play kitchen crossed
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> teach a curious 25-month-old.
> Gia
 
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