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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / October 2008living single
My separation is either 8 days and going, or -4 days and counting down, depending on how you look at it. DH has been gone for 8 days, and I will be out of the house when he comes back. I know that I'm supposed to be weepy and crying and despondant, but instead I've been feeling great. Even my 15th wedding anniversary passed without a pang. I've gotten a list of marriage counselors from the insurance company and will be setting up an appointment. When I asked DH if he was willing to give it another shot, he said "well, I guess we should" but the last time I mentioned it to him, he claimed never to have had that conversation. And now he's saying he doesn't know if he will go or not. I expect he will. He's been calling every day that he's been gone, often after the kids are in bed. He's been wanting to talk to me and tell me what he's doing, and has even asked me to help him with some things. I think it's possible that it's sinking in to him that this is real, and so he's being nicer. I haven't slammed the door on the marriage -- I'm willing to give it another shot, but only if he meets my requirement -- that is, to accept his part in what has gone wrong, and to do whatever he needs to do to learn how to show affection. That may well be impossible for him, but if so, then I'm sorry, but I can't come back. So far at least, the niceness hasn't made me waver on that. I'm a little worried about being alone in that apartment, but I'm also really looking forward to it. It will take me back to the "me" I was before marriage -- dealing with things on my own and doing a good job of it. Xorra > My separation is either 8 days and going, or -4 days and counting down, > depending on how you look at it. DH has been gone for 8 days, and I will be [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Xorra That's a long road Xorra. 8 days is like the first week cutting cigarettes. Be prepared for many swings and a possible change one way or another after many considerations. Wishing you luck and calm. Erin > My separation is either 8 days and going, or -4 days and > counting down, depending on how you look at it. DH has been [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > the "me" I was before marriage -- dealing with things on my own > and doing a good job of it. It's always been my view, despite being misconstrued by some, that one of the underpinnings of a solid relationship is that each partner knows that the other partner is in the relationship by choice, and that they have other choices, and that the relationship needs to continue to be what they want it to be, or that they might make other choices. It's not a bad thing for each partner to know that the other may, in fact, leave if certain behaviors creep into the relationship. There's a fine line between this, and being very tentative about a commitment to a relationship, and sometimes, that line can be crossed inadvertently. But I believe that it's necessary nonetheless, especially in those marriages where one partner begins to be abusive in some way. It's the *willingness* to leave the relationship which I've advised in the past, and not the outright threat to leave, much less the advice to leave, notwithstanding assertions by some to the contrary. > > My separation is either 8 days and going, or -4 days and > > counting down, depending on how you look at it. DH has been [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > in the past, and not the outright threat to leave, much less the > advice to leave, notwithstanding assertions by some to the contrary. Huh? 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DH has been [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Erin What? You lost your crystal ball? :-) > > My separation is either 8 days and going, or -4 days and > > counting down, depending on how you look at it. DH has been [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > in the past, and not the outright threat to leave, much less the > advice to leave, notwithstanding assertions by some to the contrary. I agree with this. It was part of our deal back when we got married (in the early Reagan years), but it doesn't seem common to think about it this way. Of course it is hardly a cure-all for anything but I think the idea that staying married depends on the mutual desire to stay together (and that this depends on how you treat each other) is central to maintaining a relationship. Oldtimers may remember Urf, who was also a strong proponent of this point of view. >> It's the *willingness* to leave the relationship which I've advised >> in the past, and not the outright threat to leave, much less the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Oldtimers may remember Urf, who was also a strong proponent of this > point of view. Unfortunately, regardless of how you feel when you marry, circumstances change. Kids are born, one spouse becomes financially dependant on the other, one spouse gets sick, and so on. Xorra >>> It's the *willingness* to leave the relationship which I've >>> advised in the past, and not the outright threat to leave, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > financially dependant on the other, one spouse gets sick, and so > on. Of course circumstances change. That's the premise of this proposition. As things change, and as people change, each of the partners should remain in the relationship with the understanding that if their partner becomes unbearable, they just might have to leave the relationship, and not say, as you have said many times way back in the past, that there is no way that you'd ever leave the relationship. As you can see, there is always a point at which virtually everyone would come to leave a relationship, and not recognizing this, and not having it be an understanding between the partners can actually increase the probability that it will happen some day. It's all water under the bridge, but to the extent that people can learn from the mistakes of others, it becomes clear that your DH is only now coming around to recognizing what he lost now that he understands that he's on the verge of losing it, and that, it really *was* possible all along. Maybe, instead of receiving signals every day that no matter how abusive he got, that there was no way that you'd leave, that you did, in fact, have very real limits of what you'd be willing to tolerate, then maybe, just maybe, he would've come to this point of recognition long before things got this far. That was always my only point. > My separation is either 8 days and going, or -4 days and counting down, > depending on how you look at it. DH has been gone for 8 days, and I will [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Xorra It seems to me that you have made some good gains here, Xorra, in being able to look at this a bit more objectively - as difficult as that must be. >My separation is either 8 days and going, or -4 days and counting down, >depending on how you look at it. DH has been gone for 8 days, and I will be [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >really looking forward to it. It will take me back to the "me" I was before >marriage -- dealing with things on my own and doing a good job of it. You've thrown something different into the mix of your normal interactions. I'm not surprised that your husband is responding differently. I have one other tough question to ask: do you think there's any connection between your other post (Still Feeling Good) and the fact that your husband is not in the house right now? I hate to ask that question because first, it's possible that you really don't know. Maybe there's a connection -- maybe not. But I think it's *important* to ask that question because it's **possible** that his behaving differently may cause you to rethink your plan. That may not seem likely right now; I hear you when you say you're looking forward to being alone in the apartment. It's also possible that once you're alone in the apartment, and perhaps you're not feeling good, and he's behaving differently, you may change your plan. It's incredibly hard to stay focused at these times. I hope that you have someone you can call on as the situation flucuates -- someone who can help provide a reality check. You won't necessarily be the best person to judge. I don't mean to undercut you here. I just remember being in that confused place where making decisions was ****so**** hard -- and I had ample evidence from my past about how poorly I chose for myself when emotionally confused. I know this is lots of my own projection. I have to end with saying how happy I am to see how far you've come, Xorra. No matter what, you're going to make it. Barb > I have one other tough question to ask: do you think there's any > connection between your other post (Still Feeling Good) and the fact > that your husband is not in the house right now? There could very well be. Without him here, I don't have to worry about getting in trouble. I don't have to wonder when he will comedownstairs in a bad mood saying sh*t, sh*t, sh*t under his breath. And without him here, there is no one to butt heads with my daughter, and all the screaming that entails. However, he's been on trips before, and I haven't had this happen. so I don't think that's entirely it. > I hate to ask that question because first, it's possible that you > really don't know. Maybe there's a connection -- maybe not. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > perhaps you're not feeling good, and he's behaving differently, you > may change your plan. It is quite possible that when I'm there, I will be lonely enough to come home. I'm afraid of that actually. But for now, I'm firmly resolved NOT to come home unless he is willing to acknowledge and address his part in our problems. I have set up a counseling appointment for when he gets back. Unfortunately the latest appointment is 5pm, so he will probably claim he can't make it. If so, I will tell him to set up something else. > It's incredibly hard to stay focused at these times. I hope that you > have someone you can call on as the situation flucuates -- someone who > can help provide a reality check. You won't necessarily be the best > person to judge. No, not really. I mean it seems that everyone has their own agenda, and they all disagree with each other. > I don't mean to undercut you here. I just remember being in that > confused place where making decisions was ****so**** hard -- and I had [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > how happy I am to see how far you've come, Xorra. No matter what, > you're going to make it. Thank you. I admit that I *still* after all this, want my marriage to work. The thing is that he's a good guy and I love him and I really don't think he's aware of how he is. So I *want* it to work. I just don't see how it can. Xorra >> I hope that you >> have someone you can call on as the situation flucuates -- someone who >> can help provide a reality check. You won't necessarily be the best >> person to judge. > No, not really. I mean it seems that everyone has their own agenda, and > they all disagree with each other. I'm wondering... could the marriage counsellor take some of that role? A counsellor might not know all the history but at least s/he could be an objective outsider with no agenda, who could listen to what you have to say (and your husband, if he speaks this time :-)) and keep track of things for you? > I admit that I *still* after all this, want my marriage to work. > The thing is that he's a good guy and I love him and I really don't think > he's aware of how he is. So I *want* it to work. I just don't see how it > can. It must be very tantalising, to see and want all your husband's exceptional good qualities, and yet to feel that without some additional qualities your marriage can't work. Especially when those are such ordinary qualities which most wives seem to take for granted in their husbands! I am glad things are going better for you (despite the darned fridge! :-)) Cailleach > > I have one other tough question to ask: do you think there's any > > connection between your other post (Still Feeling Good) and the fact [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Xorra >> No, not really. I mean it seems that everyone has their own agenda, >> and they all disagree with each other. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > have to say (and your husband, if he speaks this time :-)) and keep > track of things for you? One can only hope. My fear is that the counselor is going to assume that he's a normal guy capable of compromise and negotiation, and since he has this habit of not saying much and seeming mostly agreeable, thinking that he's cooperating, when he then walks out of the office with a sharply editted view of what went on, and dismisses anything he doesn't like with "he's a quack". >> I admit that I *still* after all this, want my marriage to work. >> The thing is that he's a good guy and I love him and I really don't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > are such ordinary qualities which most wives seem to take for granted > in their husbands! Did I tell you that my psychiatrist asked me out of the blue if he has Asperger's? That was without any prompting on my part. We went through a checklist and came up with the same maddening maybe/maybe not that seems to always be the answer. > I am glad things are going better for you (despite the darned > fridge! :-)) Thanks. :-) Xorra > One can only hope. My fear is that the counselor is going to assume that > he's a normal guy capable of compromise and negotiation, This is where you do have some choice, because you could tell the counsellor different. I don't mean you should say "he's an Aspie" (which may not be technically true anyway). But you still have a lot of valuable information to share. You can tell him your history. You can give him examples of the different things your husband can't or wont do; what happened during the first marriage counselling sessions, what happened since, even what your psychiatrist said. And you can ask the counsellor to help you figure out what's going on. Tell the counsellor that if your marriage is to have a hope then you *do* need to understand why your husband wont hug you, and so on. A counsellor can help you confront the issues if you decide to bring them into the open. It would be a whole lot harder if you decided to sit there waiting and hoping for the counsellor to notice something, but you could choose not to do that. Even if you say all this stuff to the counsellor and it turns out you're mistaken or biassed about your husband, well you're willing to take it on the chin, aren't you? If it turns out that he can put his feelings (good or bad!) into words, if it turns out that he would hug you if only you'd act less scary and he can tell you what less scary means, then you've won. > since he has > this habit of not saying much and seeming mostly agreeable, thinking that > he's cooperating, when he then walks out of the office with a sharply > editted view of what went on, and dismisses anything he doesn't like with > "he's a quack". Of course he's a quack. Quacks talk gobbledegook that clever rational people don't understand. :-) If you want to make sure the counsellor sees your husband as he is, then whenever your husband agrees to something in a session, say that you want him to explain in his own words what he just agreed to. You don't have to accept him making inarticulate agreeable noises, nor just echoing back your words or the counsellor's. If he can't say it in his own words, maybe he hasn't understood. > Did I tell you that my psychiatrist asked me out of the blue if he has > Asperger's? Yes you did. (Did my email get through?) > That was without any prompting on my part. We went through a > checklist and came up with the same maddening maybe/maybe not that seems to > always be the answer. Well.... for starters, the fact that the psychiatrist asked the question means that your husband has some traits that are strong enough to be visible to a professional who is knowledgeable and objective. He would have to come across as a long way from average before a psychiatrist would even want to run that checklist with you. And if they're that strong then they're also strong enough to have a big effect on your marriage. And "maybe" is a different result from "no significant traits". These checklists can give either result, as well as "probably enough significant traits for a diagnosis". By all means check this with the psychiatrist, but (as I understand it) "maybe" means "maybe enough traits for a formal diagnosis, maybe not". It doesn't mean "maybe he has no traits after all" and it certainly doesn't mean that the traits he has are just everyday not-a-real-problem man-stuff! And another thing to bear in mind - the psychiatrist would only take you through that checklist if she trusted you to describe your husband's behaviour pretty accurately. All the best, Cailleach > >> No, not really. I mean it seems that everyone has their own agenda, > >> and they all disagree with each other. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Xorra > > One can only hope. My fear is that the counselor is going to assume that > > he's a normal guy capable of compromise and negotiation, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > or wont do; what happened during the first marriage counselling > sessions, what happened since, even what your psychiatrist said. I agree with Cailleach that here is someplace you can do something. It may be as simple as walking into session 2 and giving an honest assessment of the outcome from session 1. If he walked out of session 1 smiling, but started badmouthing the counselor the moment you get into the car, and was unwilling to do any of the things the counselor suggested, then call him on it in the counselor's office next time. When my wife and I were in couples counseling, one of the things I wanted was to be given suggestions of things to try between sessions. If we tried them it gave us something to talk about. If one of us refused, it also gave us something to talk about. So it was a way to be trying to take action at making our relationship better, but even when it didn't work, we were able to bring it back to the counselor and try to use it to get further ahead, even if it was one of us "telling on" the other. (snip) > If you want to make sure the counsellor sees your husband as he is, > then whenever your husband agrees to something in a session, say that > you want him to explain in his own words what he just agreed to. You > don't have to accept him making inarticulate agreeable noises, nor > just echoing back your words or the counsellor's. If he can't say it > in his own words, maybe he hasn't understood. Yes. > >> No, not really. I mean it seems that everyone has their own agenda, > >> and they all disagree with each other. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > editted view of what went on, and dismisses anything he doesn't like with > "he's a quack". Could you write the counselor a letter and explain the situation beforehand? I mean, I realize that any good counselor isn't going to just take your word for it, but it might be easier to lay out the situation as you see it if you do it in writing (after all, you've had so much practice here)! You could say that you've had counseling before and that it hasn't worked, and describe what has happened in the past and the point that you're at now. If you go into detail in writing, it might be easier for the counselor to get the idea that this isn't an ordinary situation. Sarah > 'm a little worried about being alone in that apartment, but I'm also > really looking forward to it. It will take me back to the "me" I was before > marriage -- dealing with things on my own and doing a good job of it. I believe congratulations are in order:) Often various emotional conditions found while married have deep causes. Have fun. |
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