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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / December 2008That's it. It's over.
He doesn't want me home. > He doesn't want me home. (((Xorra))) Take good care of yourself - you'll be fine in the long run, I'm certain - in the short run, this is a good time to nurture yourself a bit. > He doesn't want me home. (((Xorra))). I don't know what to add at this point. Maybe to at least TRY to keep in mind that this is NOT the end of your world, although I'm SURE it must feel like it. This kind of experience ... is a really tough walk, to walk. :-( > He doesn't want me home. I'm very sorry - despite everything I know you loved him and it must be very hard to hear that. I hope this is going to be something you can look back on from a much better place in the future. Sarah > He doesn't want me home. Hope it's final. Sometimes uncertainty and indecision can be more difficult to cope with. cheers, Erin >> He doesn't want me home. Hope it's final. > Sometimes uncertainty and indecision can be more difficult to cope with. > > cheers, > > Erin Sometimes????? I think nearly ALL times. > He doesn't want me home. Do you want to be home? My love, {{hugs}} and Are you OK? What can I do to help? Visit anytime, all the time, Fill >> He doesn't want me home. > > Do you want to be home? I held out hope that he would come to miss and appreciate me. It was a futile hope if you look at past evidence, but I guess I'm an eternal optimist. (Lol -- me, an optimist?) > My love, > {{hugs}} > > and > Are you OK? > What can I do to help? I appreicate the e-mail, even if I don't always have the engergy to answer. I got more rest than usual last night, so I'm having a rare bit of alertness right now, but it's been hard. > Visit anytime, all the time, Travelling is going to be difficult for some time, both monetarily and time-wise. I admire how you've managed to keep your spirits up with all you've been going through. Xorra > Fill > >> He doesn't want me home. > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > > Fill my spirits aren't that up. it wasn't the best, or the worst, weekend of my life. holding out hope...yeah. I guess if I didn't do that, I'd likely ... ... so don't. There may be no purpose beyond today, so today, it's it. tomorrow, you may see purpose beyond today, but you don't have to, today. fill >>>> He doesn't want me home. >> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > fill I think this is the key. But it's a difficult key to embrace. > my spirits aren't that up. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > fill Good attitude. I still slip into periods of despair where I feel that giving up is the only reasonable way to go. Xorra > > my spirits aren't that up. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Xorra Yeah. It's deer hunting season opening weekend here in WI, and I'm thinking about buying some faux antlers and wearing all brown and taking a hike in the county forest... (j/k...tho not entirely untempting) >>> my spirits aren't that up. >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > (j/k...tho not entirely untempting) Oooh... :-( I know the feeling. I just had a talk with a very blunt friend who tells me that the misty-eyed view of some perfect guy appearing out of nowhere and making my life wonderful is just a fantasy. Now, I agree that would be a fantasy, but I don't agree that it's what I'm looking for. Still, It brought home all my fears. I remembered too, something about my husband that I'd forgotten. That is, that when he's pushed, he pushes back. The best way to get him NOT to do something, is to insist that he do it. Which means that taking a stand like this is bound to fail. More and more I feel like my future is bleak no matter what I do. Xorra > >>> my spirits aren't that up. > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Xorra I'm sorry dear. I'm probably a bit like your dear hubby in this respect, but not entirely (when I'm wrong, I'm quick to admit, after I see, and make amends). Still, probably the best way to get me not to do something is to insist I do it. The best way to get me to do something? To help me see where it's essential to my values that it be done. Anyhow, Xorra, tonight was rough for me. I don't know why. I got home from yet another Friday of hard work, at 5, and rather felt sad. So I called a friend and I'm emailing from her guest bedroom right now. We had a good chat and good dinner, and she was a good friend when former husband died, and she went thru a nasty divorce...so now I'm feeling better (a bottle of red better?). But why after doing so good for so long have the last two weekends been hard for me? The Friday-night-of- it-all, to be specific. Not complaining--happy to have several friends who I can just call and hang with. Just weird. Thinking I'm doing good but maybe not entirely? When I tried to express to friend to night, it comes down to same damn thing over and over: he'[s not a bad guy, I just was wrong to marry him. My fault. I shoulda seen it, I didn't my bad. Oh,. well. You hang in there. Well go drink margaritas someday in Cancun together. fill > > >>> my spirits aren't that up. > [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > together. > fill Fill, I have been out of touch with the group. There have been home things with my daughter--she took a weapon to school and got expelled. But I wanted to get caught up. I sent you an email. Do you check at the address posted here? Or is it just a bouncer address? Zorra, I am sorry to read how things turning out for you. I read fast and maybe I missed to much. But you sound weird like Fill does. Are the two of you OK? Trixie > Zorra, I am sorry to read how things turning out for you. I read fast > and maybe I missed to much. But you sound weird like Fill does. Are > the two of you OK? Most days I'm much more ok than I was when I was home. Thanks for asking. Xorra >>>>> my spirits aren't that up. >> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > Anyhow, Xorra, tonight was rough for me. I don't know why. I got home > from yet another Friday of hard work, at 5, and rather felt sad. I know why. And that's perfectly understandable. > So I called a friend and I'm emailing from her guest bedroom right now. We > had a good chat and good dinner, and she was a good friend when former > husband died, and she went thru a nasty divorce...so now I'm feeling > better (a bottle of red better?). But why after doing so good for so > long have the last two weekends been hard for me? The Friday-night-of- > it-all, to be specific. Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work is a good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And holidays can be *especially* tough, if you have no family of good friends around, but I think you do, so at least that's a saving grace, Fill. > Not complaining--happy to have several friends who I can just call and > hang with. Just weird. Thinking I'm doing good but maybe not entirely? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > together. > fill Let's all meet in Atlantis over frozen margaritas (with salt on the rim). But I'm still waiting for those cruise ship bookings. So far, they're only going to Alaska, or some of those weird Pacific Islands, or the Bahamas, or some other such nonsense. On Nov 22, 12:48 am, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>>>> my spirits aren't that up. > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > tough, if you have no family of good friends around, but I think you do, so > at least that's a saving grace, Fill. So it's really just a Friday-night-thing? I dont' feel spinningly crazily despairing, but I was so glad to have frineds to call, and yes, they are saving grace, as are my two sons. (Tho spending the night in either of their apartments would be very odd, as they are young and male without nice clean bathrooms).So really, it's OK to just be weirded out on Friday, Bill? Cuz I do pretty well until this night now for a couple weeks. > > Not complaining--happy to have several friends who I can just call and > > hang with. Just weird. Thinking I'm doing good but maybe not entirely? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > going to Alaska, or some of those weird Pacific Islands, or the Bahamas, or > some other such nonsense. I swear I'm gonna find you someday in CO Bill and you can teach me how to use a radio dial. And for those of you with your mind in the gutter, get it out! But otherwise, frozen margs in Atlantis--well, I always take a warm vacation by water in winter if I can. Thanks Beams > On Nov 22, 12:48 am, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 100 lines] > > Thanks Beams I'm hiding here under the ruins of Pompeii. You musta missed seeing me there. And using a radio dial is a piece of cake! Of course, that was back when there actually was RADIO. (what passes today for "radio" is ... oh, nevermind. But The Shadow knows....) > Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work is a > good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And holidays can be > *especially* tough, if you have no family of good friends around, but > I think you do, so at least that's a saving grace, Fill. Ok, so, tell me if I have a right to feel hurt here.... My sister invited me and my parents to Thanksgiving dinner. Then she and I had that falling out and so I'm not going. I'd go if she called and told me she still wanted me to come, but she hasn't. So I will be alone on Thanksgiving. Completely alone, either in the apartment or the house. There is a part of me that wishes my parents would tell her that she has her family and they don't want me to be alone....but I realize that's unreasonable. She invited them and they accepted, and if they cancelled on her, it would be like choosing sides. BUT... They know I'll be alone...and they know I've wanted them to visit.... Don't you think they could offer to come up either before or after the dinner? I won't invite them again after being rejected....but...I mean, am I expecting too much? Xorra >> Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work is a >> good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And holidays can be [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > me > she still wanted me to come, but she hasn't. Well, that just sucks. :-( Of course you have a right to feel hurt. But I'm not sure you have to wait for HER to call you (more on that below). > So I will be alone on Thanksgiving. Completely alone, either in the > apartment or the house. There is a part of me that wishes my parents [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Xorra Probably not, but maybe it depends on them (and is not so much something against you). But I don't see why you can't call your sister and ask if she would really mind if you came too, since you are going to be all alone. Hopefully she could at least be THAT understanding and considerate, and let some of that previous disagreement be put aside. >>> Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work is a >>> good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And holidays can be [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > understanding and considerate, and let some of that previous > disagreement be put aside. Ok, but...I don't want to be the one to call this time. I'm really sick of always having to be the one to reach out and make amends. And you know, I really think she owes me an apology. I won't insist that she give me one, but I do think that she should be the one to call. Xorra >>>> Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work is a >>>> good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And holidays can be [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > know, I really think she owes me an apology. I won't insist that she give > me one, but I do think that she should be the one to call. Yeah, I can understand that. Would you be cool if she called and offered the invitation again, but without bringing up the bad business between you two? Vickie >>>> Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work is a >>>> good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And holidays can be [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Xorra OK, and I can certainly understand that. But is it really worth it letting this get in the way to miss being all together on Thanksgiving? I'm just posing the question to you, and not saying whether it is or isn't, except this: my thinking of your being alone there on Thanksgiving, as a consequence based on principles, can sure be a pretty lonely road to hoe. And yes, I've been down that road too, but it sure comes at a price, and sometimes I wonder if it was really worth it. >> Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work is a >> good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And holidays can be [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Xorra You can ask whether or not you *should* be upset, hurt or whatever. Or you can pick up the phone and ask your sister if you are still welcome. OR you could just show up as you were previously invited. >>> Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work is a >>> good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And holidays can be [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Or you can pick up the phone and ask your sister if you are still > welcome. OR you could just show up as you were previously invited. More abrubt than I intended.... but you *are* the one who stands to lose by inaction. So whether or not any of us think your family is bieng overly nice or supportive to you, it seems you *are* expecting too much from *them* if you mean to spend Thanksgiving with family. You sure you don't want to come to NH? I can adopt you into my extended family. >>>> Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work is >>>> a good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And holidays can [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > You sure you don't want to come to NH? I can adopt you into my > extended family. :-) Well, here is the thing....due to my picky eating, I don't actually *eat* Thanksgiving Dinner. My family usually provides ham of some kind for me, or if not that, I can make some tomato soup. But it makes it very awkward for me to spend Thanksgiving with any one else, because it's unlikely they will understand. And yes, I understand your point about being the one to lose out, but ... well, I still don't want to go there. I think I will see if Dominoes is open that day. :-P Xorra > >>>> Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work is > >>>> a good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And holidays can [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Xorra, It's OK to not want to go to your sister's and to stop being the one to extend the olive branch, as long as you're willing, REALLY, to go to Dominoes etc and be happy. Someone in the news group posted to me last year, it's hard to stop assuming the role of doormat (people can treat you poorly, you still are nice, you still go even feeling unwelcome, you're treated poorly again) and to stop expecting better treatment. It often ends up being painful b/c then you just are at home and feel lonely or abandoned, even tho you made the choice--and it's not a poor choice. The way to do it--I wish I can remember who said this, perhaps Doug A?--is that you need to replace that time with something you actually will really enjoy! Consider taking yourself to the best restaraunt that matches your food preferences. Take a magazine or two with you if you're worried about what you'll do. Have an appetizer and go slowly. Enjoy! Hugs to you. Have a nice week, and keep posting. Fill >>>>>> Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work is >>>>>> a good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And holidays can [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > to extend the olive branch, as long as you're willing, REALLY, to go > to Dominoes etc and be happy. But is that really possible (for Thanksgiving)? I'm not so sure (and I don't just mean for Xorra) > Someone in the news group posted to me > last year, it's hard to stop assuming the role of doormat (people can [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Hugs to you. Have a nice week, and keep posting. > Fill Seconded. And keep on posting, especially during this trying period, is "right on". >>>>> Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work is >>>>> a good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And holidays can [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Xorra I am going to say one more thing here. And I hope it does not sound wrong. It seems to me that anyway you slice it, whatever you want to do it ok. But it seems to me that there is a lot of extra fuss and nonsense here. Not go somewhere else because someone might not understand that you only ate a roll? Or whatever? I mean, one has to figure there is SOMETHING with all that food that you can eat, from the apps to the bread. It almost sounds like you are setting up obsticles to yourself. I mean... either you want to be in company or you don't. If you want to order Dominos and be by yourself, then let yourself want that. If you want to go to your family, then let yourself want THAT. If you want to go over to your friend Susan's, then let yourself go to Susan's and let Susan's family worry about whether or not you actually ate any turkey. If they are the type of people who will care what you do and don't like to eat, you may choose not to visit them next year. >>>>>> Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work is >>>>>> a good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And holidays can [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > the type of people who will care what you do and don't like to eat, you > may choose not to visit them next year. Maybe I'm all wet here, but got the impression that she doesn't really want Dominos, or to go to Susan's, or to go to her sisters, or any of that - what she really wants is for her family to actively seek out her company on the holiday - and it is a bit of a Catch-22, because if Xorra has to make the first move, then that means that they aren't the ones seeking her out... >>>>>>> Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work >>>>>>> is a good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > because if Xorra has to make the first move, then that means that > they aren't the ones seeking her out... You've got it pegged. You know, I was excited that the apartment I am in is accessible without stairs. My parents had told me they couldn't visit the house anymore, because the stairs are too difficult, and my daughter has a bird, which my mom is phobically afraid of. So when I got the stairless, birdless apartment, I told them so, and how they could come visit me now. Only they didn't. After almost a month (of the original 6 weeks) passed without them saying anything about coming up, I was having a bad day and when they called, I told them how hurt I was that NO ONE had visited me in my apartment, and how lonely I am here. Still nothing. And now the Thanksgiving thing is coming up, and still, even having been explicitly told that I will be here by myself, they have made no move to come see me. Or even to ask if I'd like to come see them. So having been flatly rejected, I don't feel up to asking again. And yes, I am hurt, I'm sorry, but I am. Anyway, I decided to go to my in-laws on Thanksgiving. They didn't invite me...but they did as DH if I was coming, so I guess that's close enough. And I will be with my kids. Because of work though, I will have to drive down and come back by myself. Xorra > >>>>>>> Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work > >>>>>>> is a good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > so I guess that's close enough. And I will be with my kids. Because of > work though, I will have to drive down and come back by myself. But have you actually *asked* them? Like, next Sunday at 10, would you like to come over for brunch? Sarah >>>>>>>>> Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work >>>>>>>>> is a good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > > Sarah They are almost 3 hours away, so brunch is out of the question. I think "I really want you to come see me." is close enough to an invitation. I'm certain that they are not waiting for something more specific. Xorra >>>>>>>>>> Exactly. Weekends are tough (after this kind of thing). Work >>>>>>>>>> is a good diversion (aka: avoidance therapy :-). And [quoted text clipped - 107 lines] > > Xorra Uh, no. With elderly disabled parents, adult children make the effort to go and see THEM. > Uh, no. With elderly disabled parents, adult children make the effort > to go and see THEM. Yes, of course, and I have done just that over the years, along with doing everything I can to help them out and do those little jobs that are more difficult for the elderly while I am there. But they are not so elderly and disabled that they are unable to travel at all. They visit my sister pretty regularly, they went to Myrtle Beach just this past summer, and my mom in particular travels as much as she possibly can. Oh, and they told me to let them know whenever one of the kids has a band concert, cause they want to be here for that. So, I agree with you in general. But for some reason it was important to me this time as a show of support that they come to see me. Anyway, my question was, "Do I have a right to feel hurt?" And your answer is "No." Okay, thanks for responding. Xorra >> Uh, no. With elderly disabled parents, adult children make the effort >> to go and see THEM. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Xorra The thing I don't understand is the need to know if you have a "right" to be hurt. You either are or are not hurt. In your case, you are. That makes it right. No you choose actions, THEN you have to think if your ACTIONS are right or wrong. >>> Uh, no. With elderly disabled parents, adult children make the >>> effort to go and see THEM. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > are. That makes it right. No you choose actions, THEN you have to > think if your ACTIONS are right or wrong. Yes, of course, and asking if I had a valid "reason" would be more accurate. I was just doing a reality check. Xorra >>>> Uh, no. With elderly disabled parents, adult children make the >>>> effort to go and see THEM. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Xorra YOU'R ALL WRONG! Just joking. I would be hurt and bummed out if I was going through what you are going through and my family wasn't being sugar sweet to me. Period. So maybe you don't have a valid reason, but at least there are others who would have the same feelings. >>>> Uh, no. With elderly disabled parents, adult children make the >>>> effort to go and see THEM. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Yes, of course, and asking if I had a valid "reason" would be more accurate. >I was just doing a reality check. You strike me as a very logical, data-based type of person, Xorra -- but one whose life has taken a particularly difficult turn. At times like these, even the most logical of people may find that they are unexpectedly feeling ruled by emotions. When I read what you've written, I see a hurt child, wanting the comfort of those who have and will always love and accept her. And not getting what you need. I'm not sure how you interact with your family, or what their expectations of you are, but if (1) they're not used to your asking for emotional help and support; or (2) you find it hard to just tell them the true depths of your emotions right now -- well, it's like everyone is troubled and confused, but not sure what to do. One thing you could do is simply write an open letter to your family. Let them know how deeply you're hurting, and how their response (or lack of response) has increased your feeling of pain and isolation. It may be too late to salvage Thanksgiving for you, and they may still not respond the way you want them to -- but at least you'll have let them know, well and truly, how you're feeling right now. Barb >>>>> Uh, no. With elderly disabled parents, adult children make the >>>>> effort to go and see THEM. [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > not respond the way you want them to -- but at least you'll have let > them know, well and truly, how you're feeling right now. From what I know, I don't think Xorra has hidden any emotion out of her requests for her family to visit or even her want of support for her recent family and individual matters. Your number (2) also seems off base considering she had her recent down-spiraling bout of depression which landed her in hospital. I think Steph was closer to the truth. Her sister is acting extremely selfish. She knows of Xorra's depression, she knows the trying and tiring issues with her daughter, she knows that Xorra's marriage is holding together by a thread. And for purely "I can only think about myself" reasons, she has caused this riff. If it was my sister going through this I would say screw it, let's drop this, I love you, and then crack some stupid jokes to smooth things over. Her parents on the other hand seem clueless or helpless or something. My mom would tell me to get over myself and call up my sis. And that would be the response I would give if there was a problem between my own daughters. I think your open letter idea is a good one. I just hope if Xorra takes it upon herself to do it, that she gets a response and one she can work with. If she doesn't, it will smart badly. Then, where would you go from there? Vickie > Her sister is acting extremely selfish. > Her parents on the other hand seem clueless or helpless or > something. (Plus all the condemnations of her DH in other posts.) In my honest opinion, I think this kind of enabling is doing much more harm than good. Yes, yes, yes, I know that you'll just sluff this off by shifting the focus to your unsupportable, and unsubstantiaed charges of how I only like to "kick people when they're down". But even if that rediculousness were ture, it still doesn't mean that my opinion of your post is any less valid. OTOH, what might show it to be invalid is a response directly on point. There's a pattern at play here with X, just as there was with Cat. For some reason, their perception is that they are mostly surrounded by people who do not care about them, or who take advantage of them. There are threee possible explanations for that (a fourth if we consider that it could be a combination of the first threee), but either way, it still comes down to X having to do something radically different for herself if things are gioing to change for her. 1) For some very bizzar combination of conincidences, most of the people in her life *are* very indifferent to her, if not outright mean to her, or: 2) One of the things thay all have in common (i.e., a relationship with X) is causing them to react similarly to her, or; 3) Her perceptions are basically incorrect. If it's (1), she needs to figure out why she tends to surround herself with these kinds of people, and change that trend. If it's (2), she needs to figure out what she is doing to illicit such reactions, and change that behavior. If it's (3), she needs to recognize this is the case, and change how she comes to conclude what she does about her circumstances. None of us can know with any degree of assurance which of those it might be, or how much of each that it might be, and so if we cannot know that, then we cannot make pronouncements that it *must* be some flaw or other in *those* people which is to blame. Not only is that unfair to them, but much more importantly, it does X absolutely no good even if it is true, and it does her harm if it's not. I think how things have turned out for both X and Cat suggests that the kind of 'support' which they accept(ed) here, which is nothing more than validiation of the worst case scenerio, has done nothing but to exasperate their situations. No one is ever well served to be repeatedly and continually told that they are victims. People *are* victims many times, and it is soothing to empathize with them for it from time to time. But that has it's limits, and can only ever be of any positive value if it's true. Whereas we can't know that it's true, then validating their 'feelings' of being a victim is more likely to do more harm than good, and even if it is true, is likely to do more harm than good if that validation never ends. IMHO, X must rise above the dolldrums of victim status, and take charge of her life. If she has not already done so, and I mean really, really done it, she must figure out which of the three possiblities above might be the most prevelent, no matter how distasteful the answer might be to her, and she must then make the appropriate changes to her life. If it's (1), then she must surround herslef with other people, and stop thinking that she'll ever get what she wants or needs from those currently in her life. If it's (2), then she must change her behavior. If it's (3), then she must change her life's lenses. But no matter what it is, to continually dwell in the morass of victim-hood is not the answer, and it *will* defeat her in the end. To X: As I said above, you may very well be a victim, but your inherent value as a human being on this Earth is as high as it is for any other human being on this Earth, and so if you are a victim, then come to realize that you deserve better, and surround yourself with 'real' friends, who get to know the 'real' you, and who can provide 'real' support (even if it's not always palatable) based upon 'real' observations of your circumstances. These virtual 'friends' are not real, and never can be. And if it's not so much that you *are* a victim as it might be that there are changes that you need to make in you, then the advise is pretty much the same. You need to decide, with or without help, that your value to the world is high, and that you're not being fair to yourself by repeating the same mistakes over and over again with the same behavior, or the same outlook.. Have a good Holiday, no matter how *you* choose to spend it. You have enormous inherent value to the world, and you don't need anyone, real or virtual, to validate *that truth* for you. >> Her sister is acting extremely selfish. > >> Her parents on the other hand seem clueless or helpless or >> something. > > (Plus all the condemnations of her DH in other posts.) Let me clue you in on something, bub. I have listened to your rhetoric about how my type of support is not to your liking and enabling Xorra in her victimness, or whatever. I am not listening anymore. I have a friendship with Xorra outside of ASM. We have met face to face. I call her on the telly. I have met and spoke with her DH over the phone. Received emails from the both of them. And we had a nightly appointment on Tuesdays for IMing. You have no idea the knowledge I have of her intimate life. You have no idea the amount of times Xorra has told me that she doesn't understand where I get the idea her husband *cares* for her. You have no idea how many options I try and work through with her to try and examine what she wants out of life and how to acheive it. You have no idea how many times she has been upset or I am upset over things we have conflict about. *I* know what brought the riff between her and her sister. *I* know the the excuses her folks give for not coming over. *I* know the words her husband spoke to her last evening and what he did It is hard for me to respond to Xorra on ASM anymore because of the things I know and are not *mine* to share. And anytime I speak with her, when I am out answers or thoughts, I admit straight out that I am at a loss, and that the topic at hand should be brought to a professional. And then I tell her I am sorry I can't help. So, get off your soap box and put a sock in it. Vickie > In my honest opinion, I think this kind of enabling is doing much more > harm than good. Yes, yes, yes, I know that you'll just sluff this off by [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > But no matter what it is, to continually dwell in the morass of > victim-hood is not the answer, and it *will* defeat her in the end. >>> Her sister is acting extremely selfish. >> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > So, get off your soap box and put a sock in it. That's got to be most pathetic thing I've even come to know about Usenet. You actually admitted that you have a close, personal, RL relationship with another poster here, and yet, you continue to have detailed conversations with her in this very public, and very permanent venue about all of the miseries she faces in her life. How incredibly twisted that is. If your intention was to *really* help her, there'd be no need to go public with any of your 'support'. Is building a resume of 'compassion' and 'understanding' and 'sypamthy' so important to you that you'd take it so public when you have every opportunity to keep such intimate acts of support private? Do you really need your own validation *that* badly? Or is it more a case that the more miserable other people's lives are, the better yours looks by comparison? And just as amazingly, you spare no one the wrath of your public condemnations, and yet, when your words are critisized in that same venue, you spaze like a little child who's been mistreated somehow. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. Well, Bub, be aware that just like you, I will say what I want, when I want, and as often as I want. The difference will be that when I am critical, or accusatory, I will be able to support what I choose to say. OK, Bub? :-) >>>> Her sister is acting extremely selfish. >>> [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > OK, Bub? :-) I have never had the opportunity to read such dribble. You are a spiteful jealous LITTLE man. I gave away NO intimate details, just the communications I have had, you utter fool. Not to mention I have had this relationship with Xorra for a long, long time. So your bullshit of me needing to display my relationship is beyond the pale. Go f.ck yourself. You really need some release. Hovno hlava. Vickie >>>>> Her sister is acting extremely selfish. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > > Vickie But this trollin' IS his release! Haven't you figured that out YET? :-) >>>>> Her sister is acting extremely selfish. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > I have never had the opportunity to read such dribble. > You are a spiteful jealous LITTLE man. Yup. It took you no time at all for a simple critisim of your interpretation of 'support' to get you to take a head-first dive into the slime with which you're all to familiar. And of exactly what do you think I'm jealous? Or spiteful, for that matter? Your life vs. my life? lol! > I gave away NO intimate details, just the communications I have > had, Are you under the twisted impression that I thought you had? > Not to mention I have had this relationship with Xorra for a > long, long time. Which makes your posts here to her all the more bizarre. > So your bullshit of me needing to display my relationship is > beyond the pale. Maybe, but given that your responses above have little or nothing to do with what I actually said, I doubt it. > Go f.ck yourself. You really need some release. Once again, Bub, you're assuming that the misery that is your life is applicable to others. What you should really be asking yourself is why you would get so angry and vengeful over such a mild criticism of your post? And it was such a small part of my original post. It isn't like I attacked you for the kind of person you are, is it? Or is it. >>>>>> Her sister is acting extremely selfish. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] > layperson, and no one should ever base their decisions upon them > under any circumstances. Yeah, we know that already. Interesting how you leave it out sometimes, though. > "AllYou!" <idaman@conversent.net> wrote in message > <dribble snipped> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > layperson, and no one should ever base their decisions upon them > under any circumstances. Forget something??? Here it is again. Don't leave home without it. >>>> Her sister is acting extremely selfish. >>> [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > OK, Bub? :-) What a jerk. Isn't trollin' season over yet? I know it is for hunting. The fact that anyone can be SO fuckin clueless is beyond the pale. THAT is what is pathetic. >>> Her sister is acting extremely selfish. >> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Vickie Hmmm. You may have to help him with that. I seriously doubt if he knows where to put it. I've seen clueless, but this one takes the cake. >>> Her sister is acting extremely selfish. >> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > Vickie If this is so, the both of you should not get angry or offended when other peoples' advice comes off as clueless or less-than-helpful. >>>> Her sister is acting extremely selfish. >>> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > If this is so, the both of you should not get angry or offended when other > peoples' advice comes off as clueless or less-than-helpful. Really? When he is just trollin', she sure might, as HE wasn't offering any true "advice". It's called "calling a spade a spade". (old school) >> If this is so, the both of you should not get angry or offended when >> other >> peoples' advice comes off as clueless or less-than-helpful. > > Really? When he is just trollin', she sure might, as HE wasn't offering > any true "advice". It's called "calling a spade a spade". (old school) Who was calling who a spade? I lost track. Anyway, be it advice, support, or mere observations, someone will get offended, and IME people get more offended at comments that strike close to the truth than those that are made of whole cloth. >>> If this is so, the both of you should not get angry or offended when >>> other peoples' advice comes off as clueless or less-than-helpful. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to > the truth than those that are made of whole cloth. It's actually none of the above. It was Trollin'. Maybe some people get offended at trolls, who even boast in their disclaimer: > "AllYou!" <idaman@conversent.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > layperson, and no one should ever base their decisions upon them > under any circumstances. Ya think?? It's really not tooooo hard to keep track of who - and where - the spades really lie. >>>> Her sister is acting extremely selfish. >>> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > If this is so, the both of you should not get angry or offended when other > peoples' advice comes off as clueless or less-than-helpful. What exactly are you talking about? Are you saying that I have gotten angry or offended because someone's advice did not help me out? Vickie >> If this is so, the both of you should not get angry or offended when >> other peoples' advice comes off as clueless or less-than-helpful. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Vickie No. I am saying that your anger at AllYou's comments about the Xorra's situation and his assessment of your response to them is misplaced. He obviously does not have the inside knowledge that you do, and since you can't enlighten him, it does no good to chastise him for his uninformed opinions. >>> If this is so, the both of you should not get angry or offended when >>> other peoples' advice comes off as clueless or less-than-helpful. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > not have the inside knowledge that you do, and since you can't enlighten > him, it does no good to chastise him for his uninformed opinions. You mean to chastise him for his Trollin'. Sorry, but Trolls DO need to be chastised. And people need to be held accountable. Yeah, I know, I'm just dating myself..... (old school) >>> If this is so, the both of you should not get angry or offended when >>> other peoples' advice comes off as clueless or less-than-helpful. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > can't enlighten him, it does no good to chastise him for his uninformed > opinions. Appreciate the clarification. Note though, that I did not comment on AY's comments to Xorra and held no anger for that. In fact I have not responded to any comment he made in this thread to her. I responded to his criticism of my response to Barb? I think. And it was not just a criticism if you read AY's comments. It went beyond, IMO. I hit my limit. His reply to my reply was even more small minded and mean. I responded in kind. Vickie > >>> If this is so, the both of you should not get angry or offended when > >>> other peoples' advice comes off as clueless or less-than-helpful. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Vickie I tried to follow this and got lost. There is a problem having a RL friend who is also a friend on ASM? Or that as a friend in both places, there would be some confidences that would not be shared publicly but would be privately? I think I missed the problem, cuz that just doesn't make sense. It's like saying that whatever I tell my girlfriend "Sue" on the phone should be considered as public as what she and I say in a large group of people, or that we shouldn't have both relationships? Anyway, I'm thankful for all my friends, online on the phone email snail mail and F2F. So happy thanksgiving to all of you! Fill >>> If this is so, the both of you should not get angry or >>> offended when other peoples' advice comes off as clueless or [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > you do, and since you can't enlighten him, it does no good to > chastise him for his uninformed opinions. And now that I have been informed, my opinions remain essentially the same. I still think it does no good to continually tell people that they are right that everyone else in their lives are awful. >>>> If this is so, the both of you should not get angry or >>>> offended when other peoples' advice comes off as clueless or [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > the same. I still think it does no good to continually tell people > that they are right that everyone else in their lives are awful. Except that is not what happened. > NOTICE: > I treat everything which anyone posts in Usenet as nothing more than [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > layperson, and no one should ever base their decisions upon them > under any circumstances. >>>> Her sister is acting extremely selfish. >>> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > when other peoples' advice comes off as clueless or > less-than-helpful. As my actual posts will show, I, for one, do not get angry at that. >> So, get off your soap box and put a sock in it. >> >> Vickie > > If this is so, the both of you should not get angry or offended when > other peoples' advice comes off as clueless or less-than-helpful. If Xorra chooses not to share these details, then it hardly is anyone else's fault for failure to include them in their posts. You should not be spouting personal stuff on a public forum. Is there a reason to address these issues here rather than in your personal relationship? There is no requirement to hit the reply button when someone says something that does not make sense to you. >>> So, get off your soap box and put a sock in it. >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > requirement to hit the reply button when someone says something that does > not make sense to you. I'm sorry to say I don't follow what you are talking about, or if this post is to me. I think though that perhaps this would be a terrific response to AY, as he continually tells me that my advice is, ummm less than stellar. Vickie >>>> So, get off your soap box and put a sock in it. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'm sorry to say I don't follow what you are talking about, or if > this post is to me. I think it is odd for you to reply to AY with a bunch of reference to non-common knowledge. > I think though that perhaps this would be a terrific response to AY, > as he continually tells me that my advice is, ummm less than stellar. > > Vickie I think it would be remarkably wise to ignore this sort of thing. But that is me. >>>>> So, get off your soap box and put a sock in it. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I think it is odd for you to reply to AY with a bunch of reference to > non-common knowledge. I am miffed that you would wonder this at all. AY had posted his responses to Xorra and I had no opinion at all, nor posted any about them. I replied to Barb's post. Yes, I have more insight than she may, so without giving details out of Xorra's private business, I posted my response with "from what I know". It is not my right to give the personal details out. I follow Xorra's lead. Just because I know more DOESN"T mean I have all the answers. When someone says something , we *might* take it outside ASM and look at it in more detail. Regardless of my knowledge, some others here may say something I have not thought of, or come at a situation at a different angle. There is always room for opinion. Then here comes AY who starts off replying to me by saying: "In my honest opinion, I think this kind of enabling is doing much more harm than good. Yes, yes, yes, I know that you'll just sluff this off by shifting the focus to your unsupportable, and unsubstantiaed charges of how I only like to "kick people when they're down". But even if that rediculousness were ture, it still doesn't mean that my opinion of your post is any less valid. OTOH, what might show it to be invalid is a response directly on point." and: "I think how things have turned out for both X and Cat suggests that the kind of 'support' which they accept(ed) here, which is nothing more than validiation of the worst case scenerio, has done nothing but to exasperate their situations." and "But no matter what it is, to continually dwell in the morass of victim-hood is not the answer, and it *will* defeat her in the end." In my response to him, among other things, I mentioned ways that I am in contact with Xorra and the relationship we have outside ASM, which basically means he has no IDEA what kind of support I give. I was clueing him in on the fact that maybe, JUST MAYBE, I am NOT limited to the support he sees online, so maybe he should just back off. Well, he got pissed, La-Dee-f.cking-Da. Did I say anything in my response about him or his posts being "pathetic"? nope. Did I say anything about how "twisted" something of his is? nope Then he says: "If your intention was to *really* help her, there'd be no need to go public with any of your 'support'." Which makes no sense. Talking things out is a great way to improve ones life, and see different things. He then goes on to say: I am "building a resume in compassion and understanding" and that it is "so important to take it public" where I have said NOTHING that Xorra has not mentioned herself. That I need my "own validation "that" badly". And asks "Or is it more a case that the more miserable other people's lives are, the better yours looks by comparison?" Then he spews forth other crap, so basically I told him to spew something else and called him a name. The longer I read anything by AY, I just realize more and more that he is a hateful person who thrives on stirring the crap to get a reaction so he can look the high and mighty man. All it does is makes him look spiteful and small and a LITTLE man. By the way, if you do go back and read my response to Barb, you will notice that you, who had no other knowledge about the specific details, I felt, in my opinion, was closer to the right conclusion to me: "I think Steph was closer to the truth.", I said. Vickie >> I think though that perhaps this would be a terrific response to AY, >> as he continually tells me that my advice is, ummm less than stellar. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I think it would be remarkably wise to ignore this sort of thing. But that > is me. > In my response to him, among other things, Yes, those pesky 'other things' that were driven out of anger. > I mentioned ways that > I am in contact with Xorra and the relationship we have outside [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > just back off. > Well, he got pissed, La-Dee-f.cking-Da. Just as I suspected. You're resorting to unsubstantiated accusations again. Depite *your* anger, and your acrimony, *I* did not get angry at all. > Did I say anything in my response about him or his posts being > "pathetic"? nope. > Did I say anything about how "twisted" something of his is? nope But you clearly suggested that my response to you was out of line in light of your 'private friendship' with X, despite the fact that there was no such light here. > Then he says: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Which makes no sense. Talking things out is a great way to > improve ones life, and see different things. Here, I'll explain it to you, Bub. If your friendship with X is so close and private, then why is there any need at all to respond with 'support' here in such a public venue? You can't say the very same things in private? Why do you find the need for *you* to make your brand of support so public? It can't possibly be for her benefit, because if it was, it would have greater impact if it came privately. Clearly, you must have some other agenda, which has nothing to do with X. > He then goes on to say: *After* your vitriolic response to me wherein you invited me to explain my position about *you* even further. > I am "building a resume in compassion and understanding" and > that it is "so important to take it public" where I have said [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > The longer I read anything by AY, WhoooooooHooooooo!  Signature"As the light repeatedly cycled from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way." - Unknown > X-No-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > 'support' here in such a public venue? You can't say the very same > things in private? I, for one, would just like to know, are you really this clueless, or is this an act? > Why do you find the need for *you* to make your > brand of support so public? It can't possibly be for her benefit, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > layperson, and no one should ever base their decisions upon them > under any circumstances. >>>>>> So, get off your soap box and put a sock in it. >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > I am miffed that you would wonder this at all. What did I wonder at? I have no recollection of wondering about anything. That you are miffed comes as no surprise to me. I will repeat this one main point in the rest of the recap whose purpose is not clear to me. >> I think it would be remarkably wise to ignore this sort of thing. >> But that is me. I think it would be remarkably wise to ignore this sort of thing. >>>>>>> So, get off your soap box and put a sock in it. >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> >> I am miffed that you would wonder this at all. > What did I wonder at? I have no recollection of wondering about anything. > That you are miffed comes as no surprise to me. You thought it odd, so I tried to explain myself. > I will repeat this one main point in the rest of the recap whose purpose > is not clear to me. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I think it would be remarkably wise to ignore this sort of thing. Yeah, it is wise and why I had ignored most of his "critiques" in the past. So I repeat as well; I hit my limit. Vickie >>>> So, get off your soap box and put a sock in it. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > AY, as he continually tells me that my advice is, ummm less than > stellar. Amazingly, only a small part of my post was about your view of 'support' and most of it was in actualy support of X, and yet, you, and only you, resorted to meaness and abject anger. >>>>> So, get off your soap box and put a sock in it. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > 'support' and most of it was in actualy support of X, and yet, you, > and only you, resorted to meaness and abject anger. More amazing still is how one can deny their own culpability in it. > NOTICE: > I treat everything which anyone posts in Usenet as nothing more than [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > layperson, and no one should ever base their decisions upon them > under any circumstances. >>>>>> So, get off your soap box and put a sock in it. >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > More amazing still is how one can deny their own culpability in it. No doubt. If one really wanted one to read the entirety of one's post, it would probably be best not to start off by laying into them. Perhaps one would be better to rattle the cage at the end of the post? Anyway, whatever to AY. Vickie >> NOTICE: >> I treat everything which anyone posts in Usenet as nothing more than [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> layperson, and no one should ever base their decisions upon them >> under any circumstances. SignatureNOTICE: I treat everything which anyone posts in Usenet as nothing more than a work of fiction with no basis in fact or reality whatsoever. Every comment in every one of my posts is nothing more than a useless opinion or a wild speculation, and must never be taken seriously or as having any positive value to anyone for any reasons. I never assume that there's any more to a story than what I have read, no matter what else the author or anyone else may have posted anywhere. Be advised that my remarks are that of an ignorant layperson, and no one should ever base their decisions upon them under any circumstances. >>> Her sister is acting extremely selfish. >> [quoted text clipped - 116 lines] >> But no matter what it is, to continually dwell in the morass of >> victim-hood is not the answer, and it *will* defeat her in the end. And maybe you should get licensed as a *real* therapist? Otherwise, shut the hell up. Xorra has dealt with a number of issues with her husband, and since her husband has not had any input here, you are an a.s. In fact, you should reconsider your value as a human as you are just an a.s. Let others have opinions and express them without your weak evaluations. Let Xorra deal with her own issues without your piddly opinions. >>>> Her sister is acting extremely selfish. >>> [quoted text clipped - 119 lines] > And maybe you should get licensed as a *real* therapist? > Otherwise, shut the hell up. Do you even have a clue as to what the purpose of this venue might be? > Xorra has dealt with a number of issues with her husband, and > since her husband has not had any input here, you are an a.s. In > fact, you should reconsider your value as a human as you are > just an a.s. Let others have opinions and express them without > your weak evaluations. > Let Xorra deal with her own issues without your piddly opinions. Amazing. This venue is a very public one specifically for people to post the "issues" of their lives so as to illicit opinions and comments, and X has come here and done just that, but yet, it's your 'opinion' that opinions of response should not be posted. Simply amazing. >>>>> Her sister is acting extremely selfish. >>>>> Her parents on the other hand seem clueless or helpless or [quoted text clipped - 131 lines] > 'opinion' that opinions of response should not be posted. Simply > amazing. You are right. I should have exercised a bit of judgment here that I didn't. I don't have issue with people exercising their rights in giving opinions. I'm just sensitive at the moment as I have issues in my own life I'm trying to resolve. I apologize for including you in my effort to make my own issues make sense. You have also been on this forum a long time (I know), so it is doubly wrong of me. Xorra's issues have hit home with me on a level I can't describe. That is why I shared some of my negativity with you. I'm sorry. And yes, I do know what the purpose of this venue is. I just shared some of it with you. BTW Xorra, I wish you all the luck. Since we haven't heard from your husband, and all views have came from you, I assume we are missing a few details. That does not mean I don't feel your pain. I'm pretty close to were you are right now I think. Bob > 1) For some very bizzar combination of conincidences, most of the > people in her life *are* very indifferent to her, if not outright > mean to her, or: I've always admitted that I'm the common thread, and that I'm not worth loving. >> 1) For some very bizzar combination of conincidences, most of the >> people in her life *are* very indifferent to her, if not outright >> mean to her, or: > > I've always admitted that I'm the common thread, and that I'm not worth > loving. Xorra, I'd respectfully suggest: don't bait him. You're better than that. >>> 1) For some very bizzar combination of conincidences, most of the >>> people in her life *are* very indifferent to her, if not outright [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Xorra, I'd respectfully suggest: don't bait him. You're better than > that. What bait? only the truth. You know it is. >>>> 1) For some very bizzare combination of coincidences, most of the >>>> people in her life *are* very indifferent to her, if not outright [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > What bait? only the truth. You know it is. No I don't. And I refuse to make such an assessment. So please stop it. And you can always talk with us here. >> 1) For some very bizzar combination of conincidences, most of >> the people in her life *are* very indifferent to her, if not >> outright mean to her, or: > > I've always admitted that I'm the common thread, and that I'm > not worth loving. Then you're being foolish. >> 1) For some very bizzar combination of conincidences, most of the >> people in her life *are* very indifferent to her, if not outright >> mean to her, or: > > I've always admitted that I'm the common thread, and that I'm not > worth loving. I hope you don't persist in that opinion lest it become a self fullfilling profesy. Who can you love you if you don't love yourself and know your worth? >> I've always admitted that I'm the common thread, and that I'm not >> worth loving. > >I hope you don't persist in that opinion lest it become a self fullfilling >profesy. Who can you love you if you don't love yourself and know your >worth? Lots of people, hopefully. I've never really understood the theory that nobody will love a person unless they love themselves first. It actually makes no sense to me at all. SignatureLauri in WA > > 1) For some very bizzar combination of conincidences, most of the > > people in her life *are* very indifferent to her, if not outright > > mean to her, or: > > I've always admitted that I'm the common thread, and that I'm not worth > loving. But you love yourself. Enough to try to make life better for yourself. Do not forget that. Trixie >>> 1) For some very bizzar combination of conincidences, most of the >>> people in her life *are* very indifferent to her, if not outright [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > But you love yourself. Enough to try to make life better for yourself. > Do not forget that. :-) You have a point. Thanks. Xorra > >>> 1) For some very bizzar combination of conincidences, most of the > >>> people in her life *are* very indifferent to her, if not outright [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Xorra For what it's worth, I still love ya, Xorra. (And I ain't loving a whole lot of humanity these days............... which I KNOW says more about ME than humanity ........... ) >>>>> 1) For some very bizzar combination of conincidences, most of the >>>>> people in her life *are* very indifferent to her, if not outright [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > For what it's worth, I still love ya, Xorra. Thanks, and sorry that I've been so incomunicado these days. I'd like to claim being busy or tired or something, but mainly it's just that I haven't been feeling like talking to anyone. :-S > (And I ain't loving a whole lot of humanity these days............... > which I KNOW says more about ME than humanity ........... ) Not you, so much as your state of mind right now. You will come through it, I'm sure. Xorra >>>>> 1) For some very bizzar combination of conincidences, most of the >>>>> people in her life *are* very indifferent to her, if not outright [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > (And I ain't loving a whole lot of humanity these days....... |
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