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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / February 2009The Cafe
Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his family at a cafe? I had no answer, and basically found Doug's assessment accurate enough. (I believe Doug A said something along the lines of being human and being humiliated by husband's overt disrespect. Pardon, Doug, if I paraphrase incorrectly.) So last night, I walked into a little cafe downtown. Who was there but STBX with his two adult daughters. My reaction? Really different than when we were married. I greeted each of the girls by name (brief Hi Julie), nodded at STBX, and walked over to my table and sat down and enjoyed a fine cup of coffee. I did, however, keep my back to them. They had much to giggle and laugh and chatter about, but I sat stoic-ly and proudly > Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the > floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > keep my back to them. They had much to giggle and laugh and chatter > about, but I sat stoic-ly and proudly That's pretty darn good, Fill. Kudos to you for being able to do that! > Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the > floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > keep my back to them. They had much to giggle and laugh and chatter > about, but I sat stoic-ly and proudly I believe that showed good sign of inner strength on your part, especially being by yourself. I believe I would have turned around and walked away in that situation. Congrats Fill. mon > > Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the > > floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > mon That's what I did when married to him, mon. Only I wished a hole would open up and make me disappear so I didn't have to walk away. But I had to walk away then because I wasn't allowed to join my husband and his girls during their "exclusive" dates. (Let's remember here that *all* his time with his family excluded me, for they would not ever invite me to join them, not from the moment the marriage was announced). I guess I could have taken a table and sat with pride then (as Doug A then questioned me about), but maybe some part of me knew there'd be "chatter" of a potentially harmful nature (harmful to me, of course-- inocuous -- sorry I don't know how to spell that Bill -- to them, *perhaps*). And when it's your husband, rather than your STBX, who is insulting you, it's far more difficult to feel calm. Now, as the divorce comes to its closing days, I would expect nothing but insults and degradation. Sadly, I did come to expect this, but with sadness and resistance,in the marriage but kept hoping for something else. Anyway, with my expectations now aligned with his (and his girls) actions, I'm prepared and thus not surprised at anything--plus, as you obviously gleaned--and which I saw in me for the first time since we separated--there is an inner calm and acceptance that just feels so good. :) I'm *me* again and, quite frankly, I always did like *me*-- tho I did not like the person who took the place of me during this marriage, and especially at the end of it. I'm glad that person is fading now. :) Hey--I wonder if that is what I was ashamed of, back in the fall during that exchange with you guys and specifically Doug A. Maybe I wanted to drop thru the floor because I was humiliated not only by the husband and his family's demonizing of me, but also by my acceptance of that role. Who knows? talk with you soon, Fill >>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > his time with his family excluded me, for they would not ever invite > me to join them, not from the moment the marriage was announced). Not that I am a huge fan of my in-laws, it is nice to know that they would invite me too. That sucks being constrained to the outside when you know you can be pleasant while inside. > I guess I could have taken a table and sat with pride then (as Doug A > then questioned me about), but maybe some part of me knew there'd be > "chatter" of a potentially harmful nature (harmful to me, of course-- > inocuous -- sorry I don't know how to spell that Bill -- to them, > *perhaps*). And when it's your husband, rather than your STBX, who is > insulting you, it's far more difficult to feel calm. I will say, if you are being insulted, you are at least being recognized. > Now, as the divorce comes to its closing days, I would expect nothing > but insults and degradation. Sadly, I did come to expect this, but [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > marriage, and especially at the end of it. I'm glad that person is > fading now. :) I like the fact that you can like yourself, especially when you are the only one who is with you 24/7/365. You go girl! > Hey--I wonder if that is what I was ashamed of, back in the fall > during that exchange with you guys and specifically Doug A. Maybe I > wanted to drop thru the floor because I was humiliated not only by the > husband and his family's demonizing of me, but also by my acceptance > of that role. Who knows? It's possible. I say you keep thinking it through to its conclusion. You may be surprised that you had more to like about yourself than you do now. > talk with you soon, Ditto, Tomorrow is FRIDAY. Have a good one. > Fill mon > Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the > floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > keep my back to them. They had much to giggle and laugh and chatter > about, but I sat stoic-ly and proudly Good job, Fill. It's sad to think adults would act that way. I had my daughter's birthday party the other weekend and was asked to invite my FIL over, who really ticks me off. He graced us with his presence for a couple hours. Later I found out that he whacked my son on the head to get his attention and when my son teared up a bit he proceeded to call him a cry baby. I don't get this guy at all. Vickie > > Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the > > floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Good job, Fill. > It's sad to think adults would act that way. I can't figure out who you think acted badly. Fill's X went out to a cafe with his daughters. (That doesn't sound bad.) It sounds like they enjoyed themselves (also not bad). Fill went out to a cafe and handled herself with grace in a situation that was awkward for her. Also not bad. > I had my daughter's birthday party the other weekend and was asked to > invite my FIL over, who really ticks me off. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cry baby. > I don't get this guy at all. Very unpleasant. A shame to have him in your life. >>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I can't figure out who you think acted badly. I think she assumed that thee ex and kids were giggling and talking *abouot her*. > Fill's X went out to a cafe with his daughters. (That doesn't sound > bad.) It sounds like they enjoyed themselves (also not bad). [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Very unpleasant. A shame to have him in your life. > >>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the > >>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I think she assumed that thee ex and kids were giggling and talking *abouot > her*. OK - I didn't read her description that way. But I agree, she could have been making that assumption. And I guess it clarifies that Vickie may have read it the way you read it. >>>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >>>>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > But I agree, she could have been making that assumption. And I guess > it clarifies that Vickie may have read it the way you read it. I didnt read it that way. I read Vickie reading it that way! > >>>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the > >>>>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > I didnt read it that way. I read Vickie reading it that way! Actually, my first post--and where did it go, anyway? that is weird, it just fell off?--did not include any description of the content of the chatter and laughter. Vickie might have assumed (correctly) that I included it because it impacted me, but the point was really *not* about them but to share with you some growth on my end. And no, they didn't chatter "about me." That they did chatter more loudly than others in the cafe (a trait I don't recollect them possessing during the years we were together, but I can't be sure, maybe they always were the loudest-people-in-the-cafe types--you know, there's always one group), and that if said chatter was to inform me of how good daddy was doing with his new dating, none of that says anything about me, at all. Hell, I couldn't even *think* about dating because I'm still legally married, and that's the mindset I am unfortunately stuck with. But again, this only attests to me, not to him or them! Hmmmm. On second thought, maybe I should rethink that mindset. What do you guys think about dating while still entangled--be it legally entangled or emotionally entangled etc? I hear another one of my father's rules in the back of my head here: always get fully out of a relationship before you enter a new one. Is that just silly in today's world? There is a cute guy named Bill who frequents my favorite drinking establishment... ??? ... and shared some b-day beers with me on my b- day ??? Fill > Hell, I couldn't even *think* about dating because I'm still legally > married, and that's the mindset I am unfortunately stuck with ... On the one hand ... Before I was married the first time I dated a woman who was reported to be divorced but she mentioned she was actually separated. That was enough to ensure there wouldn't be a second date. The difference that I had never been married and she was separated not divorced was enough for me at that point in my life. > Hmmmm. On second thought, maybe I should rethink that mindset. What do > you guys think about dating while still entangled--be it legally [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > establishment... ??? ... and shared some b-day beers with me on my b- > day ??? On the other hand ... I met my wife 4 months after the date of permanent separation from my ex and that was many months before the divorce process ground its way to finality. From the gate I courted her not just dated for fun. I asked her to marry me the day after signing the finality papers for the divorce and getting the sealed notice that the divorce was final. There's symetry in that it was our second marriage for both of us. I think it was also completely clear to both of us from before we met in person that the divorce would definitely proceed to finality and that it would not linger permanently. My ex did pull assorted delaying tactics so it took about a year but the process moved forward at least each month. So I think it depends on your situation, your attitude towards the divorce, his situation, his attitude towards your process and on how you view your dating process. If your attitude is that the divorce is already final in all but the paperwork and that no amount of effort on his part would lead you to consider reconcilliation, then it's reasonably likely you can do fine dating. And consider - As long as you're up front from the first date on whether you're dating for fun versus dating as courting there's no reason to avoid dating for fun. > > Hell, I couldn't even *think* about dating because I'm still legally > > married, and that's the mindset I am unfortunately stuck with ... [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > whether you're dating for fun versus dating as courting there's no > reason to avoid dating for fun. Sigh. You know, I met my STBX when I was not dating at all and hadn't been for years (first, by grief, then, by choice). Both you and Xorra mention the emotional asepct/reconciliation possibilities etc. At one point, STBX suggested counselling, and I responded by saying I had three questions he would need to be able to answer honestly, looking me in the eye, and once he could answer them, I'd go to counselling. (It doesn't matter what these questions were; suffice it to say that they required explanations for some poor choices made). I also made it clear that I'd be willing to answer any three questions he might have for me honestly. He never got back to me. :) So, we'd have to say reconcilation is not probable at this point, no discussions have gone beyond the one I just explained, and there's no spousal support in question either (unless he tries to get me to support him, but as of today, he has not contested the pre-nup--but I hear a lot of time people wait 'til the end for that). But back to dating--I just think men are warm and fuzzy and I always liked holding hands and all that stuff. I guess for now, given your post and Xorra's and Stephanie's, I'm just gonna wait--and visit the local drinking establishment at least once a week to talk to this non- date man. I certainly can do that without feeling morally suspect or guilty! > But back to dating--I just think men are warm and fuzzy and I always > liked holding hands and all that stuff. I guess for now, given your > post and Xorra's and Stephanie's, I'm just gonna wait--and visit the > local drinking establishment at least once a week to talk to this non- > date man. I certainly can do that without feeling morally suspect or > guilty! It often seems to me that the people who least need to worry about their moral standing do so the most! I guess that is how they get their moral standing. >>>>>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished >>>>>>> the floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > relationship before you enter a new one. Is that just silly in today's > world? I don't think the legally entangled really matters here, because the divorce is now inevitable, right? You two are not making any attempts at reconciliation, and as far as I know there is no spousal support at stake, right? So as far as the legal issues go, I'd say go for it. As for being emotionally entangled, only you can answer that question. If you don't feel that you are ready, then you are not. But if you are attracted to this Bill, then perhaps it's time to take a tentative step, and just try to take it slow. > There is a cute guy named Bill who frequents my favorite drinking > establishment... ??? ... and shared some b-day beers with me on my b- > day ??? :-) Always good to have a reminder that not everyone sees us the way our ex did. Xorra >>>>>>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished >>>>>>>> the floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > > Xorra OR the way we sometimes see ourselves either, for that matter. SNIP > :-) Always good to have a reminder that not everyone sees us the way our ex > did. > > Xorra- YEAH :) >>>>>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished >>>>>>> the floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > maybe they always were the loudest-people-in-the-cafe types--you know, > there's always one group), Raising hand! That's me. Bet that comes as a surprise. (Not) > and that if said chatter was to inform me > of how good daddy was doing with his new dating, none of that says > anything about me, at all. Your subsequent description of the dating conversation changed my understanding of the situation. The only thing I can think is that your ex is a dope to engage his kids in one upmanship. > Hell, I couldn't even *think* about dating because I'm still legally > married, and that's the mindset I am unfortunately stuck with. But > again, this only attests to me, not to him or them! Doesn't it/ Are you getting a drift that perhaps you have a better handle on mental health? > Hmmmm. On second thought, maybe I should rethink that mindset. What do > you guys think about dating while still entangled--be it legally > entangled or emotionally entangled etc? The only constraint afaic is the honesty to the partner. You have no partner with whom you have a committment. Date on. (Or not as you feel comfy. Just saying I don't really think the legality is simportant.) > I hear another one of my > father's rules in the back of my head here: always get fully out of a > relationship before you enter a new one. Is that just silly in today's > world? No. Actually it is good advice. It seems to me that you have to collect yourself and get back to who you are to have a relationship. So fully out? What does that mean? It could mean where you are or not. Only you can tell. > There is a cute guy named Bill who frequents my favorite drinking > establishment... ??? ... and shared some b-day beers with me on my b- > day ??? > > Fill > >>>>>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished > >>>>>>> the floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I think my husband and his daughters always had one-upmanship on me. I just can see it and respond to it much better now that I removed myself from the role of that family system. I'm gonna mull over what you, Doug F, and Xorra say about dating. Probably I'm having a knee-jerk reflex based on The Cafe. :) My dad's advice has always been solid, so for now, I'll mull and stick with what he said. But it's nice to hear that I *could* date without it being considered morally questionable. >>>>>>>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished >>>>>>>>> the floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] > what he said. But it's nice to hear that I *could* date without it > being considered morally questionable. If the relationship is over and you're breaking up, why not. Hmmm, maybe at least in this one respect we have "progressed" a bit over the Victorian times. Or maybe I need to go back and read more Bronte, et al. > The only constraint afaic is the honesty to the partner. You have no partner > with whom you have a committment. Date on. (Or not as you feel comfy. Just > saying I don't really think the legality is simportant.) This misses the chance of majorily mismatched expectations in the dating partnership. Your date is your partner for the duration of that relationship be it an evening or a year. There was a time in my life where I courted a woman and didn't know she didn't see our dating as possibly leading to marriage. I ended up marrying on the rebound over that lack of "honest to the partner" and I chose very poorly. I have a divorce from an abusive violent ex because of that poor choice in partners that I made on the rebound. > > I hear another one of my > > father's rules in the back of my head here: always get fully out of a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > yourself and get back to who you are to have a relationship. So fully out? > What does that mean? It could mean where you are or not. Only you can tell. I think "fully out" means rebound issues, or working through a mourning process or something like that. It appears that Fil has decided to put off dating while working through her rebound issues. Not a bad choice. The only choice if she's always viewed dating as courting but courting isn't the only way to date. Be open about it and there's no need to be either alone or celibate without courting, but how that jives with working out rebound issues ... >> The only constraint afaic is the honesty to the partner. You have no >> partner with whom you have a committment. Date on. (Or not as you [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > have a divorce from an abusive violent ex because of that > poor choice in partners that I made on the rebound. So... you had different expectations than a partner of yours... and that leads to a generalization that there is some kind of significant risk *in this case?* I don't see it. There is a risk of different expectations of what groceries we wind up with when I send my husband to the store without a list. Different expectations is a risk (or a benefit) in any relationship. BFD. >>> I hear another one of my >>> father's rules in the back of my head here: always get fully out of [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > either alone or celibate without courting, but how that jives > with working out rebound issues ... > > The only constraint afaic is the honesty to the partner. You have no partner > > with whom you have a committment. Date on. (Or not as you feel comfy. Just [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > either alone or celibate without courting, but how that jives > with working out rebound issues ... Yup--no dating now. Nope--haven't always viewed dating as courting, but then again, "dating" is something I haven't really done since the, ummmm....70s. After Hub 1 died, was not at all interested in "dating". Met the man who would become Hub 2, and I guess that did go from buddies to courting more than "dating" Now, I'm fifty-ish, plump-ish, gray-ing. If I can just sit next to the non-date at the drinking establishment and chat and enjoy his smell and warm-fuzzy, that seems about perfect :) Don't know about this "rebound" word tho. Suggests I'm "bound" to bounce into a new relationship. Was many, many years after Hub 1 died, and it snuck up on me,and (obviously) I didn't make a good choice. Should I ever date, wouldn't the first person by default be considered the "rebound" just as Hub 2 was the (years and years later) "rebound" of Hub 1??? Or do I just not get it? I've graded precisely 14 of gazillion papers. Avanti! >> > Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >> > floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I can't figure out who you think acted badly. I was thinking her ex and his kids were snickering at her. Damn, I guess since that so clearly came to me, I must be in a certain way, a very cynical way, right now. I didn't even realize it. > Fill's X went out to a cafe with his daughters. (That doesn't sound > bad.) It sounds like they enjoyed themselves (also not bad). > > Fill went out to a cafe and handled herself with grace in a situation > that was awkward for her. Also not bad. Yes, all good assumptions. I am still scratching my head, wondering why I would assume their laughter was purposely noxious to her. >> I had my daughter's birthday party the other weekend and was asked to >> invite my FIL over, who really ticks me off. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Very unpleasant. A shame to have him in your life. It seems my hands are tied. I thought with age and less time together that he would change. It is like he is getting more and more rummy in his age. Honestly, he was like a horrid peacock strutting around and pecking at whomever was in his way. Vickie >>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >>>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Vickie He is your husbands father, so he needs to be the one to say "Dad, I don't like your behavior and the fat that you belittle and lay hands on my child. You are not welcome in my home". That's that. Your husband is wimping out and you get to suffer the stress. If someone did that to my kid I'd go ballistic! >>>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >>>>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > child. > You are not welcome in my home". OK. Now THAT is a good call! > That's that. Your husband is wimping out and you get to suffer the stress. It does seem so. But - it is his father. But STILL!! Yeah, I think you're right! > If someone did that to my kid I'd go ballistic! >>>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >>>>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > That's that. Your husband is wimping out and you get to suffer the stress. > If someone did that to my kid I'd go ballistic! It was a week later that I found out what happened or I may have freaked out just the same. My husband and him only talk shop, nothing much in personal details. The relationship is so strained and awkward, it really surprises me that he asks me to invite his dad at all. You know, now thinking on it, I am wondering if my mom read the situation wrong. What she did get right was that instead of realizing he struck him hard enough to bring tears to his eyes and making amends, he belittled my son. Though the man can be intentially mean, it might have been the normal raise in testosterone at a party. I swear the men tend to get all riled up and boisterous. I guess I am thinking it might have been like a manly-type punch in the arm that went awry. Then again, maybe I am just making excuses. I think my husband would have stepped in if he was witness to it. Vickie > You know, now thinking on it, I am wondering if my mom read the > situation wrong. That's not possible. The only possibility when someone tells you something is that either they are telling the truth, in which case, what they say is absolutely the reality of the situation, or they are lying. Your mom, who obviously has absolutely no vested interest in this case, said it, and so it must be that your FIL is a dick. What else can it possibly be? > X-No-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > said it, and so it must be that your FIL is a dick. What else can it > possibly be? No question in my mind that my FIL is a dick. I could tell you some history that might make your stomach turn, but again it is my DH's reality, which in turn became my reality, which then with any incident my mother sees with her own eyes, her reality. I don't question my mom's vehement reality of what she saw. It is my own reality to which I am trying to figure out. Also, I am curious as to what you think my mom would have no vested interest in? Her grandson is a serious interest of hers if you were wondering. Vickie > I thought with age and less time together that he would change. > It is like he is getting more and more rummy in his age. > Honestly, he was like a horrid peacock strutting around and pecking at > whomever was in his way. > > Vickie It has been my experience that whatever one's dominant character traits are when they are younger, they get more pronounced as they age. It seems to hold true for your FIL. If it's true for me, I'm in deep trouble. Xorra >> I thought with age and less time together that he would change. >> It is like he is getting more and more rummy in his age. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > are when they are younger, they get more pronounced as they age. It seems > to hold true for your FIL. If it's true for me, I'm in deep trouble. I think we grow and change depending on our circumstances. But it is only the individual who can make it a success. My wishful thinking would make no never mind to anyone but me. What dominant character trait are you thinking you keep falling back to? Dang! For that matter, what dominant trait do I have, I wonder??? Vickie >> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished >> the floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Good job, Fill. > It's sad to think adults would act that way. Maybe they were just having a good time, and that not everything going on around Fil is always about Fil. Some people are just dicks, but it's not always the people about whom stories are being posted here, no matter what the OP posts. > X-No-archive: yes > Innews:705bqbFn1c4vU1@mid.individual.net, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > dicks, but it's not always the people about whom stories are being > posted here, no matter what the OP posts. I think they were just having a good time, and indeed, there is no reason why they should now have any reason to react empathetically to a sensitive situation that involves me than they would have any time in the past.I'm fully cognizant of the fact that their behavior has consistently (ie, over the past five years) *not* been "about me"--as most people here know. Nothing in what I wrote, in fact, suggests that they were being "dicks"--so I find it interesting--or at least predictable--that you'd tweak it that way. That's sort of your role in this ASM-arena, tho, right? Thanks to the rest of you, for you heard what I was saying--that *I* am better now psychologically than I was five months ago. The (seemingly obvious) point of my post (which all of you got) was just that--to express to you how, faced with a parallel situation of five months ago, I no longer feel humiliated or "second class." And I am proud and happy of that. :) Those baby steps--they work! (even tho I've had giant steps backwards at times...) Have a nice day, all, and thanks for your support, Fill > X-No-archive: yes >>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > always the people about whom stories are being posted here, no matter what > the OP posts. Yeah, I got it. I just assumed they were doing the whisper, point, and laugh thing. Obviously a wrong assumption. Some people *are* just dicks, I agree, and they very well could be the same people an OP posts about here. Just not in this case, it seems. Vickie > > X-No-archive: yes > > Innews:705bqbFn1c4vU1@mid.individual.net, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Vickie you weren't all that wrong, Vickie On Feb 19, 5:17 pm, "Vickie" <vkraj...@yahoo.com> wrote: > "AllYou!" <ida...@conversent.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > people an OP posts about here. > Just not in this case, it seems. you weren't all that wrong, Vickie _________________________ Okay, good. That makes more sense to me, just from what you had posted about them prior and their ill treatment of you during holidays and what-not. Though you might not have been their only topic of discussion, I am not surprised at the "loudness" of their joviality. Whatever the case, *you* were awesome in the situation. Vickie > On Feb 19, 5:17 pm, "Vickie" <vkraj...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > Vickie Thanks. I felt quite proud, and thought you all might be able to share that with me, knowing of the similar situation last fall and how badly I handled it. :) Clearly you remembered the larger context and made assumptions which, in this case, were pretty close to hitting the nail on the head. Don't let anyone tell you being able to read and interpret in that way is bad! Even when it leads to incorrect conclusions, such recall and connecting shows pretty advanced critical thinking skills. Sorry--I sound like a teacher there! (Really, think about it: while the point of my post was to focus on *my* improvement, of course it opened up musings about what I didn't specifically say, but in all those musings, only one person was way off target--the same troll who is so quick to pick on everyone, so quick to chastise everyone about their "assumptions"--harumph!) This town isn't all that big, so I just took a deep breath and said, "best get used to it." Mind you, I wasn't especially cordial--my "Hi Julie/Hi Jane" to the daughters and my nod at STBX didn't include beaming smiles or "glad to see ya agains"--so I'll have to defer the "awesome" to someone more graceful than me. I was just *better* than the old-me. I like this "getting better" part, even tho I know next week I may take a step or two backwards. I was quite plainly *not* the subject of their overt joviality--but I may have been the object of it. Mostly, tho, it continues today with a sense of relief that I no longer am playing that crazy role in that family system. Yay for ME!! >> X-No-archive: yes >>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > I just assumed they were doing the whisper, point, and laugh thing. > Obviously a wrong assumption. Seems like it was an accurate assumption, but was not necessarily in evidence from the original post. > Some people *are* just dicks, I agree, and they very well could be > the same people an OP posts about here. > Just not in this case, it seems. > > Vickie >>> X-No-archive: yes >>>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Seems like it was an accurate assumption, but was not > necessarily in evidence from the original post. Seems more of the 'retroactive reality' that's so prevelant in this NG. IOW, make the reality fit the complaint. After her greeting, she said that she walked away (which by that, I assume she didn't mean that she walked backwards), and that she sat at a table facing her back to them (which, if she was so hell bent upon ignoring them, I assume that she didn't keep turing around to see if they were pointing at her). But now that her complaint has been called into question, the reality of what happened has changed? >> Some people *are* just dicks, I agree, and they very well could >> be the same people an OP posts about here. >> Just not in this case, it seems. >> >> Vickie > X-No-archive: yes > Innews:707nakFn77lnU1@mid.individual.net, [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Only in your mind, you silly trollster. > X-No-archive: yes > Innews:707nakFn77lnU1@mid.individual.net, [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > - Show quoted text - What complaint are you talking about? I read the first post. I read the more detailed post about the conversation. I did not hear complaining?? >> X-No-archive: yes >> Innews:707nakFn77lnU1@mid.individual.net, >> Stephanie <no...@nohow.com> mused: >> >>>> "AllYou!" <ida...@conversent.net> wrote in message >>>> news:RaCdnWW6qZksNgDUnZ2dnUVZ_g6WnZ2d @posted.choiceonecommunications... >>>>> X-No-archive: yes >>>>> Innews:705bqbFn1c4vU1@mid.individual.net, [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > the more detailed post about the conversation. I did not hear > complaining?? He just has a dicky imagination. >>> X-No-archive: yes >>> Innews:707nakFn77lnU1@mid.individual.net, [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > He just has a dicky imagination. I have no doubt that my use of the word dick will never be put to rest by AY. Vickie > >>> X-No-archive: yes > >>> Innews:707nakFn77lnU1@mid.individual.net, [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > Vickie Vickie, You just *gotta* get this song by Kate Nash called Dickhead. Or, I can rip it and send it via email. Yeah--I'll do that. You will laugh, and make sure you think of AY! as you listen, for it fits him? it? to a T. Fits him better than the person I usually think of when I hear the song. Anyway, I'll wrote it down and I'll try to send it off this weekend. Fill (and if you need more laughs, remember Madonna's song in Dick Tracy--I can't remember the name, but she repeats the word dick so often than I bust a gut every time I hear it:) > >> X-No-archive: yes > >> Innews:707nakFn77lnU1@mid.individual.net, [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > He just has a dicky imagination. AllYou! is very agressive in posting. I did not understand what he (or is AY a she?) was talking about with complaints. I do appreciate the dick humor though. I always liked Madonna. More about daugher later. Trix > > >> X-No-archive: yes > > >> Innews:707nakFn77lnU1@mid.individual.net, [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > Trix Didn't you say took some kind of weapon to school? I was trying to find that old post but couldn't. Madonna is fun. After posting to Vickie yesterday, I listened to both the "dick" songs and it really did make me laugh. >> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Vickie If your FIL is abusive, someone should call it in and report it - not so much for his sake, but for the kids sake. And his DW shouldn't be putting up with it, either. In fact, by letting it happen, she is a bit complicit in it, n'est pas? My guess is he was brought up this way, and that's likely the "explanation". Which really sucks. >>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > be putting up with it, either. In fact, by letting it happen, she is > a bit complicit in it, n'est pas? Dope slapping a kid is obnoxious but it is not abuse. I am starting to object to what seems to be a societal tendency to raise everything to "abuse." Seems to dilute the word quite a bit. > My guess is he was brought up this way, and that's likely the > "explanation". Which really sucks. Different people are goiong to put the line in different places. Some people think I am being a jerk when my kid falls or whatever and I say you are ok, get up, brush it off. The best life lesson here is to teach the kid ot have the confidence to say G'pa, I don't like it when you slap me. I ama not going to stand near you and allow you to do that. And walk away. Or tears are an involuntary biological reaction to having someone smack you up side the head. Would you like to see what I mean? (Perhaps the last sentence is a bit over the top. but I would cheer my kid to the moon if they were able to say such a thing!) >>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >>>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > G'pa, I don't like it when you slap me. I ama not going to stand near you > and allow you to do that. And walk away. That sounds all fine and well, but WHO there is going to teach and model that? Evidently there is no one "home" (meaning either him or his wife being able to "get that"). This also assumes the son is old enough to learn to be confident enough to be able to pull that off. Again, without good role modeling ... probably ain't gonna happen. > Or tears are an involuntary > biological reaction to having someone smack you up side the head. Would > you > like to see what I mean? (Perhaps the last sentence is a bit over the top. > but I would cheer my kid to the moon if they were able to say such a > thing!) >>>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >>>>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > model that? Evidently there is no one "home" (meaning either him > or his wife being able to "get that"). Wait. I thought we were talking about Vickie's kid being slapped by her FIL is what we were discussing. So if that is the case, Vickie is the person charged with exposing that life lesson. > This also assumes the son is old enough to learn to be confident > enough to be able to pull that off. Again, without good role > modeling ... probably ain't gonna happen. Actually pulling it off is somewhat irrelevant. It takes time to learn things like this as much as math and writing. You expose how to deal with bullying over and over. One thing you can do is agree to move closer without words thereby giving strength without taking the issue on yourself. But a child is likely to be able to process the beginning of these lessons at 4 and 5. >> Or tears are an involuntary >> biological reaction to having someone smack you up side the head. >> Would you >> like to see what I mean? (Perhaps the last sentence is a bit over >> the top. but I would cheer my kid to the moon if they were able to >> say such a thing!) >>>>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >>>>>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > is what we were discussing. So if that is the case, Vickie is the person > charged with exposing that life lesson. I was thinking it was the responsibility of the FIL and his wife to STOP it. But I see what you mean now. Still, the FIL and his wife need to be held accountable, because they'll probably do it to others, too. He (the FIL) needs to be straightened out. >> This also assumes the son is old enough to learn to be confident >> enough to be able to pull that off. Again, without good role [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >>> the top. but I would cheer my kid to the moon if they were able to >>> say such a thing!) >>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > putting up with it, either. In fact, by letting it happen, she is a bit > complicit in it, n'est pas? His wife is a witch, so they complete each other. She hasn't set foot in our home for more than a couple years now. Which is good all around. My mom was the one who relayed the info to me. I was busy lighting candles on the cake. She said she just about hauled off and smacked my FIL up-side the head and was going to ask how he liked it, but somehow restrained herself. I still have not invited him over to a kid party since the "ball" incident. Now it seems I will have to watch my kids around him. > My guess is he was brought up this way, and that's likely the > "explanation". Which really sucks. I don't know his history very well. I just know he is a mean SOB a lot of the times. I just wish.....aw, forget it. Vickie >>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >>>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > herself. I still have not invited him over to a kid party since the "ball" > incident. Now it seems I will have to watch my kids around him. Why not teach the kids anti-bully 101. Great learning opp. >> My guess is he was brought up this way, and that's likely the >> "explanation". Which really sucks. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Vickie >>>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >>>>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Why not teach the kids anti-bully 101. Great learning opp. Yeah, I am working on it. In any case, we probably will not be seeing my FIL for awhile. Vickie (snip) >>>>>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >>>>>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > (snip) OK, and I guess I was getting a bit confused in what I said. But still, the FIL needs to be held accountable too, cause he'll do it to others, too. >> If your FIL is abusive, someone should call it in and report it - >>>>> not so much for his sake, but for the kids sake. And his DW [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > But still, the FIL needs to be held accountable too, cause he'll do > it to others, too. I wonder what you mean by this when you say it. What do you mean by someone "needs to be held accountable?" Who, preciselty, is supposed to hold him accountable? Who will benefit from said accoountablity? It may offend your sense of juistice, or sometimes I think you want revenge, but in real life people get away with doing things that are wrong, even hurtful. And in real life sometimes to fox eats the cute little fuzzy bunny. Life is not a balance sheet! >>> If your FIL is abusive, someone should call it in and report it - >>>>>> not so much for his sake, but for the kids sake. And his DW [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > "needs to be held accountable?" Who, preciselty, is supposed to hold him > accountable? I will volunteer, if no one else wants to step up to the plate. :-) > Who will benefit from said accountability? Society, at large. And the aggrieved victims. > It may offend your sense of juistice, It does. > or sometimes I think you want revenge, Perhaps. And accountability and justice for his actions. Same difference. Sometimes I think we need to bring back the public stocks they used to have in the town squares of yesteryear. :-) To help instill a moral compass for some who have gone by the wayside. > but in real life people get away with doing things that are wrong, even > hurtful. And in real life sometimes to fox eats the cute little fuzzy > bunny. As human beings, we're supposed to be a cut above the animalistic world. Isn't that supposed to be the essence of humanity? > Life is not a balance sheet! It is if/when I can help it. (Now, as to just how generally successful that venture has been, I may need to take the 5th.... But there have been some moments - which is encouraging) >>>> If your FIL is abusive, someone should call it in and report it - >>>>>>> not so much for his sake, but for the kids sake. And his DW [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > I will volunteer, if no one else wants to step up to the plate. :-) So... you think you have the right and the ability to stand in judgement over othere people and mete out juistice? >> Who will benefit from said accountability? > > Society, at large. And the aggrieved victims. Holy wishful thinking, batman! >> It may offend your sense of juistice, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Perhaps. And accountability and justice for his actions. No. Juistice belongs to the victim. Accountabilty can only be accepted and owned by the perp. That is why your insitence on the notion of being "held" accouontable makes so little sense. You don't really mean accountability or responsibily. You cannot *make* someone else own those. You mean punishment. > Same > difference. Sometimes I think we need to bring back the public stocks > they used to have in the town squares of yesteryear. :-) To help > instill a moral compass for some who have gone by the wayside. You think punishment is going to give people a moral compass? I think it will give them a sore neck. >> but in real life people get away with doing things that are wrong, >> even hurtful. And in real life sometimes to fox eats the cute little [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > It is if/when I can help it. Honestly, I thank stars and whatever that you can't help it! > (Now, as to just how generally successful that venture has been, I > may need to take the 5th.... But there have been some moments - which > is encouraging) >>>>> If your FIL is abusive, someone should call it in and report it - >>>>>>>> not so much for his sake, but for the kids sake. And his DW [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > So... you think you have the right and the ability to stand in judgement > over other people and mete out juistice? In some cases, yes. >>> Who will benefit from said accountability? >> >> Society, at large. And the aggrieved victims. > > Holy wishful thinking, batman! Indeed. (Don Quixote here, guarding the home plate). >>> It may offend your sense of juistice, >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > No. Justice belongs to the victim. Accountability can only be accepted and > owned by the perp. THAT would be nice (if and when it ever happens) > That is why your insistence on the notion of being "held" > accountable makes so little sense. You don't really mean accountability or > responsibility. You cannot *make* someone else own those. You mean > punishment. If they are punished, maybe they will become responsible. And even if not, at least in many cases they will be kept away from society, so they can do no further damage. >> Same difference. Sometimes I think we need to bring back the public >> stocks they used to have in the town squares of yesteryear. :-) To [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You think punishment is going to give people a moral compass? I think it > will give them a sore neck. Yes, I think it can, in some cases. It did in the past. If you publically humiliate or shame some of them for doing egregious acts, they just may think twice and change their behavior in the future. (Of course, some will never change). >>> but in real life people get away with doing things that are wrong, >>> even hurtful. And in real life sometimes to fox eats the cute little [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Honestly, I thank stars and whatever that you can't help it! By wishing for a more responsible and humane world? One where the abusive perps are actually kept away from society? One where Justice is actually meted out, without many getting a free pass to go back out and recommit more egregrious acts? A world without child molesters, rapists, and serial killers free on the streets? A world where the VICTIM actually has more rights than the PERP (which is not often the case today)? >> (Now, as to just how generally successful that venture has been, I >> may need to take the 5th.... But there have been some moments - which >> is encouraging) > >>>>> If your FIL is abusive, someone should call it in and report it - > >>>>>>>> not so much for his sake, but for the kids sake. And his DW [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > > Holy wishful thinking, batman! LOL. You do have a way with putting things, Stephanie! > Indeed. (Don Quixote here, guarding the home plate). > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > >> may need to take the 5th.... But there have been some moments - which > >> is encouraging) Flammable snowflakes!! I love it when you get all cynical-idealist on us, Beams! And is everyone happy it is Friday? And how many of us are looking forward to grading a gazillion papers this weekend? (raise your hands) > Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the > floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > keep my back to them. They had much to giggle and laugh and chatter > about, but I sat stoic-ly and proudly Well, for what (to me) would possibly be an extremely awkward situation, you did great! For my own self and situation, I've always tried to hold my head up high, be the bigger person and try and smile it off instead. It seems you did just that, and really, it really is a good feeling knowing you ARE that bigger person in such situations. I remember years and years ago my son's father and I had quite a few mutual friends, hung out at the same places, did some of the same things. It wasn't uncommon to be out on a Friday night and bump into him at the one bar we'd both hang out at (it was a fairly huge dive of a bar that ALL the younger crowd was at, probably due to the cheap beer lol) and sure enough, there he usually was. He used to give me an absolutely STUPID smile that I just wanted to smash right off his face and a stupid wave that made me want to break his fingers and wrists. Back then I just kind of smiled/smirked back and went about my business. I was very young and he kind of made me ill just a bit. Now, though, if I was to see him walking down the street, I'd have NO problem saying hi to him. If he called me up for coffee, I would meet him somewhere. The point: Time passing and gaining maturity go a long way, and I really do think you did a fantastic job handing what was probably a fairly (very?) awkward situation! Good for you for holding your head up high and showing you're the "bigger" person! >> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished >> the floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > seems you did just that, and really, it really is a good > feeling knowing you ARE that bigger person in such situations. This is exactly how people come to have complete misperceptions about the actions of others. What makes you think that they weren't just having a good time? Is it possible that they were out together because they enjoy each other's company, and might just have been laughing and giggling even if Fil weren't there? If so, then what is there to be "bigger" about? But let's not keep any other possibilities for what was going on from craping on the people about whom stories are being posted here. I don't think it's any accident that you, Fil, and Vickie have each assumed something negative about the people in Fil's story. It's not the only thing you have in common with each other. And you guys wonder how *I* could possibly be in a very happy and rewarding relationship? Interesting. > X-No-archive: yes >>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > guys wonder how *I* could possibly be in a very happy and rewarding > relationship? Interesting. LOL. Methinks thou doth boast a little too much to be real. Perhaps the Emperor has no clothes? Yes, we know. > X-No-archive: yes > Innews:ZIfnl.13324$i42.12611@newsfe17.iad, [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > guys wonder how *I* could possibly be in a very happy and rewarding > relationship? Interesting. Kat said I acted "bigger"--that doesn't seem to say anything negative about anyone else. Vickie said she didn't understand how some adults acted a certain way-- that doesn't seem so negative, either. I said nothing negative about anyone... That the people who know and care about me may hear the implicit story really attests more to their reading and interpretation skills than any nonsense you concoct, AllYou! Time to put your little fishing rod back in your pants and go somewhere else. Maybe let whoever shares this happy and rewarding relationship stroke it--hope the line doesn't get too twisted. >> X-No-archive: yes >> Innews:ZIfnl.13324$i42.12611@newsfe17.iad, [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > this happy and rewarding relationship stroke it--hope the line doesn't > get too twisted. ROFLMAO!!! >> X-No-archive: yes >> Innews:ZIfnl.13324$i42.12611@newsfe17.iad, [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > this happy and rewarding relationship stroke it--hope the line doesn't > get too twisted. Honest to god, you crack me up. >>> X-No-archive: yes >>> Innews:ZIfnl.13324$i42.12611@newsfe17.iad, [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > Honest to god, you crack me up. Me too, but probably for much different reasons. >> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > awkward situation! Good for you for holding your head up high and showing > you're the "bigger" person! But if someone was abusive, why would you or anyone want to give him that satisfaction? (Granted, if you don't, it probably ends up irritating you more inside a bit, but still...) Maybe that's what it all comes down to. It's more about getting over it and not letting him have any so-called "power" over you. But in all fairness, he doesn't deserve the satisfaction of a smile, or even worse, a talk. Where is the justice metered out in that? > > Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the > > floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > that, and really, it really is a good feeling knowing you ARE that bigger > person in such situations. I wasn't *much* bigger--I used their names and greeted them, and they didn't respond except via loud-enuf chatter about a couple of topics to "destabilize" me--(ie, who daddy was dating)--but I think you got my point--I just didn't care. It was a relief to be self-assured again, compared to what happened last fall. (And to be perfectly honest, I did have one "gut" reaction and that was, when I "overheard" the conversation about Daddy-dating, I just thought, "Oh, that poooooor woman." But that's only b/c I had such a rough time trying to keep the marriage surviving; perhaps it will be much easier for her. > I remember years and years ago my son's father and I had quite a few mutual > friends, hung out at the same places, did some of the same things. It [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > back and went about my business. I was very young and he kind of made me > ill just a bit. That was sort of how it was for me last fall, so I understand completely--it was *while* we were married that I would be feeling uncomfortable, since I was overtly excluded from these gatherings and would have avoided them if I had known when and where they were taking place. > Now, though, if I was to see him walking down the street, I'd have NO > problem saying hi to him. If he called me up for coffee, I would meet him > somewhere. Good for you. I'm not sure I'd do either easily, and especially the coffee. Not yet, anyway :) Maybe needs more than five months, lol! Right now, the gut says probably never, why would I want to have coffee with him ever? Time will tell... > The point: Time passing and gaining maturity go a long way, and I really do > think you did a fantastic job handing what was probably a fairly (very?) > awkward situation! Good for you for holding your head up high and showing > you're the "bigger" person! I'm mostly glad my head is together enough again to hold it high. To me, it's truly a signpost for how much better I am now, and for how sick our marriage was. Fill >>> Remember back in Sept or Oct when Doug A asked me why I wished the >>> floor would open up when I unexpectedly ran into (then)DH with his [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > Right now, the gut says probably never, why would I want to have > coffee with him ever? Time will tell... I can't even imagine why. Unless to pour it on his pants? Kinda like that episode with Carly Simon and a glass of wine on a critic, awhile ago. On Feb 19, 1:33 pm, "Bill in Co" <sassycurmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> "phelbooth" <phelbo...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > Kinda like that episode with Carly Simon and a glass of wine on a critic, > awhile ago. LMAO I will remember that one, Beams. Thanks > On Feb 19, 1:33 pm, "Bill in Co" <sassycurmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > LMAO > I will remember that one, Beams. Thanks LOL. Actually, it might have just been a glass of water, now that I think more about it. Can't recall for sure. But wine woulda been more effective. :-) |
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