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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / March 2009Boys and growing up
Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore (usually:-). I was expecting to have problems with the girls during puberty, for the obvious girly reasons. Sometimes I don't recognize this competitively driven, pushy, argumentative, highly (HIGHLY) arrogant young man anymore. I am avidly reading some teen boy non-fiction to figure out how to deal with him and his attitude. So far I have just read about his changing body. I was hoping the men here can shed some light on what is going on with him and/or the parents who have dealt with this kind of change in personality. Any insight would be helpful. Thanks all. Vickie > Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore > (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Sometimes I don't recognize this competitively driven, pushy, > argumentative, highly (HIGHLY) arrogant young man anymore. Now if I were dead, I would say that he is me reincarnated. Then again, I couldn't say (type) it if I were dead. Hmm, catch 22. Oh, whata PITA I was. I don't know how my mom did it when I look back on it. I must have drove her completely insane. > I am avidly reading some teen boy non-fiction to figure out how to deal > with him and his attitude. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Any insight would be helpful. The biggest problem you need to overcome is one that is impossible, your a girl and "mom." I can hear him now, "It's just mom, she won't understand. She's a girl. Why can't she just leave me alone. I won't bother her if she would just leave me alone." You will get the snickers, snears, mean looks, and stubborn attitude, but in the back of he needs to know that he can count on him mom. The only advice I could really give you, that my mom used with me, was leave me alone when I was being a jerk/PITA, and if he gives you a sign of openness or looking for advice, use it for all it is worth until it is gone (you will have about 30 seconds to 15 minutes). What you need to remember, this is just IMHO, if he can make it through the next few years without getting into to much trouble, you will have been successful. Unless he is already there, wait till the rotating girlfriends come along. If he has a decent emotional side to him, you will be in for a HUGE roller coaster ride with his girlfriends. Just try to deal with the individual situations as they come up, and just be his mom. Oh, and keep harping on his A$$. "Where are you, Where are you going, What time will you be home, Who are you with." He will hate you for it now, but will love you 10 fold later. > Thanks all. > > Vickie Good luck. mon >> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore >> (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > snickers, snears, mean looks, and stubborn attitude, but in the back > of he needs to know that he can count on him mom. Omg, totally! He very much thinks he is smarter and more knowledgeable in anything with me! I try to listen to his explanations and even meet with him half-way, saying things like: "I can see why you would think that, but if you know this, or look at it this way, or remember this...then the answer changes." He still pushes forward with his answer and finds anyway to prove his blustering right-ness, which includes changing his answer to mine and pretending he never said what he concluded in the first place! Yibbledeedab! So frustrating! Throw my husband in the mix and it is like a battle of the arrogant a.ses. Look out for the explosions! Sometimes I would like to tell my husband that he should recognize my son's lordly attitude if he looked in the mirror. I refrain though. > The only advice I could really give you, that my mom used with me, was > leave me alone when I was being a jerk/PITA, and if he gives you a > sign of openness or looking for advice, use it for all it is worth > until it is gone (you will have about 30 seconds to 15 minutes). LOL. Thanks for the time frame. I do leave him be once I know things are going downhill. Sometimes though I really have to put my foot down when he is being utterly obnoxious and unreasonable:; which seems to be a regular occurrance every other hour. > What you need to remember, this is just IMHO, if he can make it > through the next few years without getting into too much trouble, > you will have been successful. Ok. I will keep this in mind. And also remind my husband of this. Though DS can be unruly at home, he is pretty good outside of it. > Unless he is already there, wait till the rotating girlfriends > come along. If he has a decent emotional side to him, you > will be in for a HUGE roller coaster ride with his girlfriends. He has a BIG emotional side to him. Girls are still just kind of there for him at the moment. > Just try to deal with the individual situations as they come > up, and just be his mom. > > Oh, and keep harping on his A$$. "Where are you, Where are you > going, What time will you be home, Who are you with." He will > hate you for it now, but will love you 10 fold later. Food for thought, for later. He is still good with this. >> Thanks all. > Good luck. > mon Thanks so much. Vickie > Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore > (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Any insight would be helpful. The obvious insight is to consider his primary male role model. To what extent are the characteristics you describe things that he has learned from his dad? I think there are limits to what you can do. You can't ask that your son think you are correct, or smart. He'll think what he thinks. You can ask to be treated with politeness and respect - surely that is something we want our children to learn to do with everyone. Of course he is a teenager, so it may be that asking for politeness and respect won't have an immediate payoff. I also believe in limiting the arguments as much as possible. For example, if I tell my daughter she is grounded, she can present information about why she shouldn't be grounded, and I'll listen to it, but I won't argue with her about it. >> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore >> (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > You can't ask that your son think you are correct, or smart. He'll > think what he thinks. Definitely agree here. > You can ask to be treated with politeness and respect - surely that is > something we want our children to learn to do with everyone. Of > course he is a teenager, so it may be that asking for politeness and > respect won't have an immediate payoff. Agreed. > I also believe in limiting the arguments as much as possible. For > example, if I tell my daughter she is grounded, she can present > information about why she shouldn't be grounded, and I'll listen to > it, but I won't argue with her about it. In certain situation, boys are a little bit different than daughters, especially if the boy is taller and possibly stronger than their mother. In these instances, dad will need to step in and both parents having a cohesive strategy would be highly beneficial. mon (snip) > In certain situation, boys are a little bit different than daughters, > especially if the boy is taller and possibly stronger than their > mother. I'm not sure if strength is an issue. I feel when disciplining teens in general, you are going to fail if your strategy relies on superior strength. > In these instances, dad will need to step in and both parents having > a cohesive strategy would be highly beneficial. Yes, it is important for the parents to be on more-or-less the same page. > (snip) > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > in general, you are going to fail if your strategy relies on superior > strength. Preumably this investment was made when Mom was still bigger than the child. >> In these instances, dad will need to step in and both parents having >> a cohesive strategy would be highly beneficial. > > Yes, it is important for the parents to be on more-or-less the same > page. >> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore >> (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > what extent are the characteristics you describe things that he has > learned from his dad? The arrogance I believe is in direct relation to his father's attitude. Also perhaps his jibes. So I guess there is not much I can do with these behaviors except to repeat I don't appreciate the lack of respect. Strangely enough, I don't think he realizes his own remarks at times or how they sound. Does that make sense? One thing though, if he does push me to a point of hard discipline with him, he is pretty crestfallen. I suppose that is something to hold on to. His competitiveness does not come from his dad. Pretty much because my husband believes most competition to be beneath him. So, I am not sure how he has come to be soooo totally competitive, we are talking *extreme* here. It is a big problem and I have not found anything to sway him from just having fun for fun's sake. I also read recently where peers have the most influence during the middle school years. I know from what he has told me of the kids at school that most boys are razzing each other and throw insults around. I guess I need to explain to him the difference in treating your peers and treating your parents. He probably will role his eyes over this "lecture"! > I think there are limits to what you can do. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > information about why she shouldn't be grounded, and I'll listen to > it, but I won't argue with her about it. I am not doing so well with this. I think I stay and argue because I am trying to make him understand the full extent of why he is being punished. I probably am not giving him enough credit for already knowing why, and that he is just really acting surprised and argumentative at my reactions so he can delay punishment or change my mind. It is going to be hard to change this. Thanks for the input. Vickie > >> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore > >> (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > So I guess there is not much I can do with these behaviors except to > repeat I don't appreciate the lack of respect. You can do more than that. You can institute consequences for disrespect, though I'd be careful going down that path. > Strangely enough, I don't think he realizes his own remarks at times > or how they sound. Does that make sense? Sure, since the same seems to be true about your husband. It is part of our job as parents to teach our kids what their actions mean to the people around them. > One thing though, if he does push me to a point of hard discipline > with him, he is pretty crestfallen. I suppose that is something to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Pretty much because my husband believes most competition to be > beneath him. To me, this sounds like _hyper_ competitiveness. Your husband is so competitive he doesn't want to take the risk of failing. But of course we were introduced to your husband through his obsession with a very competitive game. A game that at the time he told you he needs to play a lot to stay good enough. So the version of him I understand from your description seems pretty competititve, he has just learned to channel this in a way that seems more adult. > So, I am not sure how he has come to be soooo totally competitive, we > are talking *extreme* here. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I guess I need to explain to him the difference in treating your peers > and treating your parents. Maybe. I don't know if explaining it is good or not. I think you need to ask him not to be disrespectful to you, and if he continues anyway to think about instituting some consequences. My thinking on this is influenced by my own experience. In the final analysis it doesn't matter if I understand why something I did hurt the feelings of someone I love. As long as I understand _that_ I hurt their feelings, then I want to avoid doing that again. But this is something I had to learn. > He probably will role his eyes over this "lecture"! > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I think I stay and argue because I am trying to make him understand > the full extent of why he is being punished. Yes, that's tempting isn't it? > I probably am not giving him enough credit for already knowing why, > and that he is just really acting surprised and argumentative at my > reactions so he can delay punishment or change my mind. > It is going to be hard to change this. It might be worth it though. My daughter hates to admit she's done something wrong, and is happy to justify herself forever. On the other hand, when she has done something wrong and we give her a consequence, she'll often get much nicer (the next day) in a way that makes me think she realizes she stepped over the line even though she won't admit it! >> >> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore >> >> (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > To me, this sounds like _hyper_ competitiveness. Your husband is so > competitive he doesn't want to take the risk of failing. No, he can be a risk taker, but he does want to be good at something before taking a stand or leap. > But of course we were introduced to your husband through his obsession > with a very competitive game. A game that at the time he told you he > needs to play a lot to stay good enough. Very true. > So the version of him I understand from your description seems pretty > competititve, he has just learned to channel this in a way that seems > more adult. I suppose you're right. In, say, a friendly game of poker, he would love to win, and want to be seen as a good player, but if he does lose, he handles it just fine. My FIL is highly competitive also. Which all puts me in a fine pickle on trying to figure out a way to slow this side of him down to a healthy level. And not demean his dad's tendencies. Any clue how to do that? :-) >> So, I am not sure how he has come to be soooo totally competitive, we >> are talking *extreme* here. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > need to ask him not to be disrespectful to you, and if he continues > anyway to think about instituting some consequences. That's that being a parent thing right? > My thinking on this is influenced by my own experience. In the final > analysis it doesn't matter if I understand why something I did hurt > the feelings of someone I love. As long as I understand _that_ I hurt > their feelings, then I want to avoid doing that again. But this is > something I had to learn. Right, that's very good. A good way to put it to him. >> He probably will roll his eyes over this "lecture"! >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Yes, that's tempting isn't it? Very! >> I probably am not giving him enough credit for already knowing why, >> and that he is just really acting surprised and argumentative at my [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > nicer (the next day) in a way that makes me think she realizes she > stepped over the line even though she won't admit it! I am going to try harder. Vickie (snip) > I suppose you're right. > In, say, a friendly game of poker, he would love to win, and want to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Which all puts me in a fine pickle on trying to figure out a way to > slow this side of him down to a healthy level. Maybe being competitive isn't bad as long as you can do it with grace. One has to learn how to be a graceful loser (even though one feels bad) and perhaps more important - how to be a graceful winner (without making others feel bad). Why should this be important to your son? Because it is part of getting along with others, and because having a rewarding social life is pretty important in terms of one's happiness. > And not demean his dad's tendencies. Yeah. So his dad is competitive, but _has_ learned the important lesson (I hope) of how to be a graceful loser and a graceful winner! So I guess what I'm saying is that the think your son needs to learn is not to be less competitive (compete just as hard - being competitive can be a very positive quality) but to be _nicer_ about it. Somehow the same thing must apply with verbal stuff. He should take pride in being articulate (if he is) and in being able to argue well (if he can) without feeling like he needs to put down other people. > (snip) > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Yeah. So his dad is competitive, but _has_ learned the important > lesson (I hope) of how to be a graceful loser and a graceful winner! I think he has a hard time conceding at all. It just doesn't seem to be in him to be wrong without witnessing some kind of level of anger right now. I want to say it seems such a macho thing to do, especially when he takes the steps to go after his dad, which he never did before. I am pretty certain you would disagree with this, because it is a gender stereotype, but I can't help thinking that. And what do I get from knowing where it comes from? Not much, I still have to deal with the attitude, but it would help to know if it was some kind of right of passage and would pass at some point without me making a mountain out of a mule hill. > So I guess what I'm saying is that the think your son needs to learn > is not to be less competitive (compete just as hard - being [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > pride in being articulate (if he is) and in being able to argue well > (if he can) without feeling like he needs to put down other people. This is tough, because I feel during his day he surrounded by many peers who do this without thought or question. I suppose I just need to keep driving home my principles. Vickie > > (snip) > > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > I am pretty certain you would disagree with this, because it is a > gender stereotype, but I can't help thinking that. It doesn't really matter whether I agree that this is "macho." I think the more important question is do we want to raise kids who can handle being wrong sometimes gracefully. To me, that is one of the hallmarks of being a true adult (man or woman) - being able to acknowledge when you are wrong, and move forward from there. > And what do I get from knowing where it comes from? Not much, I still > have to deal with the attitude, but it would help to know if it was > some kind of right of passage and would pass at some point without me > making a mountain out of a mule hill. Ah. I didn't understand why you are bringing gender into it. Now I see. Well, I can offer you several observations. 1) I've met girls and women who can't admit they are wrong gracefully. 2) I've met adult men who can't admit they are wrong gracefully, and it isn't a pretty feature. So _maybe_ it will pass on its own, and maybe it won't. But it doesn't _always_ pass on its own for either men or women. To me it what you've described sounds like a combination of teen assertion of independence, insecurity, and just plain self-centered ill-manneredness. I think the assertion of independence and insecurity are both pretty normal for teenagers. But in my opinion parents need to push back at the ill-manneredness. > > So I guess what I'm saying is that the think your son needs to learn > > is not to be less competitive (compete just as hard - being [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > This is tough, because I feel during his day he surrounded by many > peers who do this without thought or question. If that is true, then it is even more important for you to make the point. Certainly peers have an influence, but I'd argue that the parental influence might be longer term, though slower. >> > (snip) >> > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > So _maybe_ it will pass on its own, and maybe it won't. But it > doesn't _always_ pass on its own for either men or women. True, as I have known both myself. > To me it what you've described sounds like a combination of teen > assertion of independence, insecurity, and just plain > self-centered ill-manneredness. Yeah, I think that is it all wound together in a bile coated hair-ball. > I think the assertion of independence and insecurity are both pretty > normal for teenagers. But in my opinion parents need to push back at > the ill-manneredness. Yes. I guess I just always had the opportunity to deal with my son differently. Not because of gender, but because of personality. The change happened so suddenly. It is hard to change gears like that. Guess I need to get used to it. >> > So I guess what I'm saying is that the think your son needs to learn >> > is not to be less competitive (compete just as hard - being [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > point. Certainly peers have an influence, but I'd argue that the > parental influence might be longer term, though slower. I agree. Vickie >>> (snip) >>> [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > point. Certainly peers have an influence, but I'd argue that the > parental influence might be longer term, though slower. I agree with ya here. Peer influence can happen within a split second, while parental influence could take years and sometimes never. mon >>> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore >>> (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > So I guess there is not much I can do with these behaviors except to > repeat I don't appreciate the lack of respect. You don't have to speak empty words though. If you look at eh *behaviors* rather than the attitude, you may be able to affect a bot of a change. Instead of just I don't appreciate your lack of respect... (doesn't seem like he cares all that much about your appreciation or lack thereof), you don't have the right to treat me with disrespect, remove yourself from the table until you are ready to return with appropriate behavior. Or I will resume speaking to you when I feel cooperation from you. > Strangely enough, I don't think he realizes his own remarks at times > or how they sound. Does that make sense? He is a teenager. That he doesn't realize ANYTHING comes as no surprise. > One thing though, if he does push me to a point of hard discipline > with him, he is pretty crestfallen. I suppose that is something to > hold on to. What exactly is your goal? You are happy that discipline results in damaged feelings? That makes no sense to me. Is he crestfallen because he hasa let you down? Or because he has not gotten what he wants? It seems to me that consistent, measure, appropriate disciple makes more sense then being pushed to "hard" discipline. Who is actually in charge here? > His competitiveness does not come from his dad. Is he competing with you? Is he reacting to not knowing where the disciplinary line is drwan due o lack of consistency? >>>> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore >>>> (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > He is a teenager. That he doesn't realize ANYTHING comes as no surprise. Lol, just barely though! He doesn't even turn 13 until June! >> One thing though, if he does push me to a point of hard discipline >> with him, he is pretty crestfallen. I suppose that is something to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > me that consistent, measure, appropriate disciple makes more sense then > being pushed to "hard" discipline. Who is actually in charge here? Sometimes I really don't know. It is not that I am happy that discipline results in damaged feelings. But it does let me know he realizes he has dissappointed me and isn't happy about it. >> His competitiveness does not come from his dad. > > Is he competing with you? Is he reacting to not knowing where the > disciplinary line is drwan due o lack of consistency? Yes, at this moment he feels in competition with everyone. Including us. I am not sure exactly how to change his attitude toward this, except in just restating that not everything is a competition and surely not when it comes to family. Vickie > Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore > (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Vickie My 19-yr-old son was never like that, my almost 16-yr-old hit that stage at about 14, and my 11-yr-old is doing it now. It seemed to correspond to zit production (I'm only half-kidding). I pretty much ignore most of it, because it'll pass, but I do insist on them treating everyone with respect, because if they don't, mom ceases to be the purveyor of Fun Stuff. >> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore >> (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > them treating everyone with respect, because if they don't, mom ceases to > be the purveyor of Fun Stuff. Yeah, I ignore quite a bit of it. The hard thing is when dad gets home from work, he wonders why I am not correcting the behavior at every opportunity. I explain to him that I need to pick my battles otherwise it would be endless days of pissing and moaning. I do think I need to work on being more of a hard-a.s though. Vickie > Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore > (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Vickie Vickie, I have two sons, less than 2 years apart in age. Wow, I can't even begin to answer this post. Can you tell me about one or two specific things? I was a PITA daughter, and my sons outdid mon, I'd bet, in PITA-ing. They both turned out fine, though, even while one is still struggling in some ways (aren't we all?) The *only* thing I held onto for about six years from middle-high school was that I knew they knew I loved them and they could trust me, and I also knew that as younger boys they had pretty solid cores. So, maybe I can have some insights, but oh, it's just such a large topic! Fill PS: did you ever get that song I sent you? On Mar 12, 10:03 am, "Vickie" <vkraj...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore > (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Thanks all. Vickie, I have two sons, less than 2 years apart in age. Wow, I can't even begin to answer this post. Can you tell me about one or two specific things? I was a PITA daughter, and my sons outdid mon, I'd bet, in PITA-ing. They both turned out fine, though, even while one is still struggling in some ways (aren't we all?) The *only* thing I held onto for about six years from middle-high school was that I knew they knew I loved them and they could trust me, and I also knew that as younger boys they had pretty solid cores. So, maybe I can have some insights, but oh, it's just such a large topic! Fill PS: did you ever get that song I sent you? ________________________________ I totally fogot to look at that addy. I will though! Examples? Hmmm. Well, dinner-time used to be some fairly civil conversations of catching up with everyone's day or guessing games or something. Now he interrupts his sibs constantly, telling how they are wrong or just argues with anyone for the sake of it. He and his sis take swim class, to master their strokes. God forbid if his sis beats him in freestyle, he goes into fits. And if I compliment her on her graceful butterfly or some such, he has to put her down or come later to me and ask me to tell him how much better he was. And just so you don't get the wrong idea, I am very good at positive reinforcements/statements for my kids. This is kind of an embarrassing one that happened yesterday. My son hid his x-box 360 Rock Band disk from me. From ME! I rarely have time to play it, but he insists I am getting too far ahead of him in the game, that *he* bought it and would rather not have me play at it. Really I was shocked. I told him to think about his reaction in this, because I was disappointed in him. He told me later he knows it is wrong to ask this of me, but he can't change his mind. Also he makes plenty of jibes at us, then insists he was joking, and why we can't understand that he was. I do see glimmers of the "old" him. I think he struggles with becoming a "man" and being just a kid. I guess it is just a difficult time. I didn't grow up with a brother or father or any close male influences. My husband isn't the talkative type, so I am trying to figure things out myself. Vickie > On Mar 12, 10:03 am, "Vickie" <vkraj...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > I totally fogot to look at that addy. I will though! From my first read all the way through, it sounds like he may be feeling insecure. A lot of his behaviors are "one-upmanship" or "being in control" over situations that you are probably correct in questioning him about. I doubt (from your posts over the years) that the insecurity, if it is that at all, stems from the family; you seem to have provided a very fine home. So, it might be coming from the normal process of his age, boys learning to "act like men" (competitive, agressive, in control)--which is of course all reaffirmed through most media. So even if your husband is role modeling as a true "man" (more complex than the stereotype I give above), he's inundated with this pressure from friends, peers, and all media. > Examples? Hmmm. > Well, dinner-time used to be some fairly civil conversations of catching up > with everyone's day or guessing games or something. > Now he interrupts his sibs constantly, telling how they are wrong or just > argues with anyone for the sake of it. Do you ever encourage the argument to develop logically? There may be a future lawyer in him; even if he ends up making spurious claims, you may find that he's got some keen thinking abilities and use that as an "in"--to turn it to a positive direction. > He and his sis take swim class, to master their strokes. > God forbid if his sis beats him in freestyle, he goes into fits. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And just so you don't get the wrong idea, I am very good at positive > reinforcements/statements for my kids. Everyone in my family swam competitively. I was by far the slowest and least competitive. My parents, like you, never ever made me feel like I was competing with my sibs and in general were pleased that I had joined and enjoyed the group. How do you respond when he puts her down? When he comes to you later? > This is kind of an embarrassing one that happened yesterday. > My son hid his x-box 360 Rock Band disk from me. From ME! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > He told me later he knows it is wrong to ask this of me, but he can't change > his mind. My brother is like this. If he can't win, he won't play. He has taken this to absurd lengths, even as an adult. For example, my then-12-year- old son was visiting him with me, and they had some computer game where they were building cities. My son's ended up really good, and my brother (probably 32 at the time) went into the code and demolished it. Some people *are* that way, and it's probably best to not play with them. However, whose x-box is it, yours or his? > Also he makes plenty of jibes at us, then insists he was joking, and why we > can't understand that he was. Again, do you push him with these? Hear him out? Ask him why he thought it was funny? Ask him if he understands why you might not? You don't have to agree on who is right or wrong about whether or not it was funny, but you can agree to disagree. My sons thought it was hilarious to play this horrid song over and over when they were mad at me. Had a line such as "Send your mama right down to the store; that bitch to go be a whore: (or something like that). It was NOT funny and I hated it. I also chose to tolerate it. We joke about it now. > I do see glimmers of the "old" him. I think he struggles with becoming a > "man" and being just a kid. > I guess it is just a difficult time. It is. I wish I understood that age group better. I don't, and I wasn't esp. good during those years, tho I did the best I could. But when you see those glimmers, let them come out and shine -- as mon said, for 15 seconds or 15 minutes! > I didn't grow up with a brother or father or any close male influences. > My husband isn't the talkative type, so I am trying to figure things out > myself. Is he continuing to do well in school and keep up a healthy social life? Is he responsible in letting you know what you need to know so you know he's safe (that was a horrid sentence, sorry). These are just some thoughts...it was hard in the 90s, and I think it IS harder now, especially in such an "immediate gratification" world that our kids have today. Best thoughts with you, Fill > Vickie On Mar 12, 2:26 pm, "Vickie" <vkraj...@yahoo.com> wrote: > "phelbooth" <phelbo...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > I totally fogot to look at that addy. I will though! From my first read all the way through, it sounds like he may be feeling insecure. A lot of his behaviors are "one-upmanship" or "being in control" over situations that you are probably correct in questioning him about. I doubt (from your posts over the years) that the insecurity, if it is that at all, stems from the family; you seem to have provided a very fine home. So, it might be coming from the normal process of his age, boys learning to "act like men" (competitive, agressive, in control)--which is of course all reaffirmed through most media. So even if your husband is role modeling as a true "man" (more complex than the stereotype I give above), he's inundated with this pressure from friends, peers, and all media. ___________________ I think this is true. > Examples? Hmmm. > Well, dinner-time used to be some fairly civil conversations of catching > up > with everyone's day or guessing games or something. > Now he interrupts his sibs constantly, telling how they are wrong or just > argues with anyone for the sake of it. Do you ever encourage the argument to develop logically? There may be a future lawyer in him; even if he ends up making spurious claims, you may find that he's got some keen thinking abilities and use that as an "in"--to turn it to a positive direction. ______________________ I do this sometimes but mostly he isn't very interested in finding a positive direction. And his dad thinks there isn't any positive direction, > He and his sis take swim class, to master their strokes. > God forbid if his sis beats him in freestyle, he goes into fits. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And just so you don't get the wrong idea, I am very good at positive > reinforcements/statements for my kids. Everyone in my family swam competitively. I was by far the slowest and least competitive. My parents, like you, never ever made me feel like I was competing with my sibs and in general were pleased that I had joined and enjoyed the group. How do you respond when he puts her down? When he comes to you later? _______________________________ When he puts her down (or whoever in whatever situation) I get pretty direct and tell him he does not need to say that. I make it very clear. Later, I try hard to tell him that a compliment to someone else does not have any adverse opinion I have of him. And he will try and try to get me to say he was just as good or right in some way. He has a real struggle with letting this go. > This is kind of an embarrassing one that happened yesterday. > My son hid his x-box 360 Rock Band disk from me. From ME! [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > change > his mind. My brother is like this. If he can't win, he won't play. He has taken this to absurd lengths, even as an adult. For example, my then-12-year- old son was visiting him with me, and they had some computer game where they were building cities. My son's ended up really good, and my brother (probably 32 at the time) went into the code and demolished it. Some people *are* that way, and it's probably best to not play with them. However, whose x-box is it, yours or his? ___________________________ 'Tis mine, well, the families, of course. Bought and paid for by the parents. > Also he makes plenty of jibes at us, then insists he was joking, and why > we > can't understand that he was. Again, do you push him with these? Hear him out? Ask him why he thought it was funny? Ask him if he understands why you might not? You don't have to agree on who is right or wrong about whether or not it was funny, but you can agree to disagree. ____________________________ Yes, actually I do push him with this. But is this one of the times I should converse, or that he *does* know and is just trying to weasle out of it, where by my DH's stand of direct repercussions for being disrespetful is the better way of the two? My sons thought it was hilarious to play this horrid song over and over when they were mad at me. Had a line such as "Send your mama right down to the store; that bitch to go be a whore: (or something like that). It was NOT funny and I hated it. I also chose to tolerate it. We joke about it now. _____________________________ Oh my. I think I would not find that funny either! Although, I do have a strange sense of humor at times, I might laugh, and diffuse the use of it for them. > I do see glimmers of the "old" him. I think he struggles with becoming a > "man" and being just a kid. > I guess it is just a difficult time. It is. I wish I understood that age group better. I don't, and I wasn't esp. good during those years, tho I did the best I could. But when you see those glimmers, let them come out and shine -- as mon said, for 15 seconds or 15 minutes! ___________________________ :-) Yeah. > I didn't grow up with a brother or father or any close male influences. > My husband isn't the talkative type, so I am trying to figure things out > myself. Is he continuing to do well in school and keep up a healthy social life? Is he responsible in letting you know what you need to know so you know he's safe (that was a horrid sentence, sorry). __________________________ Lol. No problem. And yes, absolutely, without a doubt...principal's honor student and decent in letting me know what is what. He can be pretty spacey sometimes! But none of it deliberate. These are just some thoughts...it was hard in the 90s, and I think it IS harder now, especially in such an "immediate gratification" world that our kids have today. Best thoughts with you, Fill ____________________________ Thanks much. Lot of good advice and things to think about....as always. Vickie <snip> > Is he continuing to do well in school and keep up a healthy social > life? Is he responsible in letting you know what you need to know so [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > decent in letting me know what is what. > He can be pretty spacey sometimes! But none of it deliberate. Just an FYI, Whatever you do, do NOT tell him the following statement, EVER; "I don't care what you do as long as you get good grades, tell me where your at and stay out of jail." I felt I had a tremendous amount of power and it just fed the PITA. Just thought of a question, Does he tend to use your statements against you at later times? I continually used the statement above all the time because I had good grades, left messages of where I was (not always truthful) and was never in jail, therefore, I was God and no one was going to tell me where I could or could not go, when or where I wanted. Yeah, all this between the ages of 13-17/18. If so, be VERY careful of the words you use because he will pick the statements that benefit him and disregard the ones that don't. > These are just some thoughts...it was hard in the 90s, and I think it > IS harder now, especially in such an "immediate gratification" world [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Vickie mon > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > "I don't care what you do as long as you get good grades, tell > me where your at and stay out of jail." Funny, but I remember my mom telling me, "Just don't come home pregnant!" > I felt I had a tremendous amount of power and it just fed the > PITA. > > Just thought of a question, Does he tend to use your statements > against you at later times? Not too much. But sometimes, yes. > I continually used the statement above all the time because I > had good grades, left messages of where I was (not always truthful) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > pick the statements that benefit him and disregard the ones > that don't. Yikes. Okay, I will keep that in mind. Vickie (snip) > On Mar 12, 10:03 am, "Vickie" <vkraj...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > to put her down or come later to me and ask me to tell him how much > better he was. To me it sounds like he is feeling really insecure right now. [I see phel makes a similar observation!] Putting other people down, and needing to be reassured that you are as good or better than other people at things are both classic signs of feeling insecure. Now of course _every_ teenager feels insecure sometimes. But still, I think it is important that we as parents try to teach them that putting down others is not a good way to address feeling bad about themselves. > This is kind of an embarrassing one that happened yesterday. > My son hid his x-box 360 Rock Band disk from me. From ME! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > He told me later he knows it is wrong to ask this of me, but he can't > change his mind. This totally threw me for a loop! We play plenty of video games here, including Rock Band, and no one really competes, it's all fun. I presented your scenario to my kids, and they laughed. They said if I got ahead of them in any game, they would congratulate me (I usually beat them on vocals, they beat me on guitar, they are amazed that I know all the words!) and that if he hid the disk from you, you should hide the XBox, since "you're the mom and it's your house and you probably paid for the XBox and you shouldn't let him be a jerk to you and get away with it". They hand over their DS's so that the other brother can get to a new level and they play each others characters so they can advance. They work together pretty well in everything because I have stressed this to them from the time they were small. When they would bicker, I would say "One day me dad will die and you will only have each other so you better get along!", or "You'll be sorry that you said such mean things when we're dead !" I am so not above guilt tripping. > Also he makes plenty of jibes at us, then insists he was joking, and why > we can't understand that he was. I think that is thinly disguised aggression. He needs to understand that jokes can hurt people, and he shouldn't hurt the people that care for him. > I do see glimmers of the "old" him. I think he struggles with becoming a > "man" and being just a kid. > I guess it is just a difficult time. It is, and the hormones are raging, but it is still not okay to make other people feel bad. I recall looking at my sons and thinking what aliens had switched my sweet little boy for this angry alien being. It does pass, but you can't ignore or tolerate bad behavior. > I didn't grow up with a brother or father or any close male influences. > My husband isn't the talkative type, so I am trying to figure things out > myself. I have three younger brothers, and we are all close in age. We get along really well and we see each other and my parents a lot. My sons *adore* their uncles. My husband has one sister, six years older than him, and his family was/is very standoffish. I sometimes think I relate better to my son's inherent "boyness" than he does. Is your son in Scouts, music, robotics, or something that's not a competitive sport ? If your husband is not an especially enthusiastic male influence, these can help. > "Vickie" <vkrajnik@yahoo.com> wrote in message (snip) > > I do see glimmers of the "old" him. I think he struggles with becoming a > > "man" and being just a kid. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > switched my sweet little boy for this angry alien being. It does pass, but > you can't ignore or tolerate bad behavior. I think this summarizes my point of view well too. >> "Vickie" <vkrajnik@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I think this summarizes my point of view well too. Well, it came to a head last night. His dad approached me and wanted to "jam" in our group we made, and I was so up for it. (It has been a hard week, my little one had the fever for 3 days and now it looks to be an ear-infection, so we go to docs which she is scared silly of...sigh) Anyway, yeah I wanted to have a bit of fun, and with my DH no-doubt! Son came out and was clearly upset. Said things like it was his game and how unfair it was that we were winning all the new stuff. Told us he "guessed" he has no say in it or anything and started to storm off. My DH's reaction was to tell him to stop acting the jerk, which enraged my son, who then demanded an apology, where DH said "hell no" and then tears came....yadayadayada. I sat him down, because this is always my reaction (talk it out) and said we needed to clear things up. I talked about a lot of the things here and my husband agreed with, such as, competition being a good thing, but to learn to lose gracefully, the importance and gain you receive from sharing, that competition should not be something within the family, to have fun, and when you are wrong, it doesn't mean you are *always* in the wrong in everything (which is something he constantly tells us..."I am always wrong!". During the talk, my husband's voice would raise, and my son would start to get up to leave, but I would tell my husband to lower his voice (probably not a good thing to do, just that he doesn't really get when his anger is coming out). So, I am feeling pretty good about things, my son turns to me and says indignantly, "I know all this stuff already. You could have just told me to try harder. Whatever. Can I go now?" While we agreed to let him stomp back to his room, I turned to my husband and he said, "It changed nothing, you know." I guess it is time to be that hard-a.s. Vickie (snip) > So, I am feeling pretty good about things, my son turns to me and says > indignantly, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > husband and he said, > "It changed nothing, you know." You can't count on that. You might have had a good effect (and you might have had a small good effect that will accumulate over time). Just because we know things doesn't mean we don't need to be reminded. And just because he stomped off in the end doesn't mean that a little bit didn't sink through. I think lots of times people behave badly even when they _know_ they are behaving badly because they realize they can get away with it. Sometimes you need to let them know that they can't. > (snip) > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > are behaving badly because they realize they can get away with it. > Sometimes you need to let them know that they can't. Even though my husband said that, I did feel good about knowing I got out what I wanted to get out. I guess that's a big part of parenting for me. Kind of like when they were infants. My son was colic; sometimes I would run the list; he was just fed he was just changed he was carried for an hour he is warm enough or cool enough Okay then, he is going to have to cry for a bit in the crib, I have done all I can. The difference is I *have* to run the list. It is not for me to just snap my fingers and feel I have done all I can. Vickie >> (snip) >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Okay then, he is going to have to cry for a bit in the crib, I have > done all I can. God I so remember this. In our case, DH had to sit on me to get me to leave DS alone in the crib, crying. We both knew it was the right thing to do. But I hear you about the list! > The difference is I *have* to run the list. > It is not for me to just snap my fingers and feel I have done all I > can. > Vickie > I guess it is time to be that hard-a.s. I really don't agree. I mean, he didn't just say "it's my game, you can't play," he told you why. Even I, if I were to buy a game I was excited about, would be a bit ...disappointed if my family outstripped me in it. I wouldn't forbid them to play of course, but it would take a bit of my enjoyment out of the game. So I guess instead of telling him that we shouldn't be competitive, or coming down hard on him, I'd just acknowledge that it can be frustrating to feel like he's not keeping up, and then suggest he practice more. :-) Xorra >>> "Vickie" <vkrajnik@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > enraged my son, who then demanded an apology, where DH said "hell no" > and then tears came....yadayadayada. My reading on this is so different than yours. Your son comes out and explains to you that he is bummed out that you are stepping on his turf. Dad calls him a name. > I sat him down, because this is always my reaction (talk it out) and > said we needed to clear things up. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > in everything (which is something he constantly tells us..."I am > always wrong!". I can totally see where your son is coming from. You and Dad want this fun thing. He has no say. And even after Dad calls him a nasty name, it is still about his competitive attitude. > During the talk, my husband's voice would raise, and my son would > start to get up to leave, but I would tell my husband to lower his [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I guess it is time to be that hard-a.s. Perhaps it is time to use a little understanding? I am all for being a hard-a.s when ard-a.s is required. But you can't solve a problem until you knoww what it is, and I am not sure you are clear on that point. You may be able to get clarity on the point by pretending he is just a person, not a boy, not a teenager, not your son. Maybe even pretend that it is you. Dad can blow a agasket pretty much any time an issue comes up, call you names, all with impunity. And Mom ... well tells you it is pretty much all your fault and problem frm competitiveness. I don't know but it sounds to me like there are bigger issues here than "competitiveness." > Vickie >>>> "Vickie" <vkrajnik@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > this fun thing. He has no say. And even after Dad calls him a nasty > name, it is still about his competitive attitude. I can see where he's coming from, as well. Goodness knows I'm all for kids sharing their things and taking turns but they also need to be allowed some supremacy over the things they own that are important to them and to be allowed to enjoy them sufficiently first before sharing them. "Sufficiently" is a very stretchy term and the owner gets to determine what that means. Sometimes, as a parent, you do have to override a child's wishes about how selfish he wants to be about sharing something but I don't think this was a such a case. Vickie, I remember when my daughter was into the "Twilight" books last year. She wanted me to read them too and when I did I was engaged enough to be waiting for her to finish each book so I could start it. It would have been very easy for me to read ahead when she wasn't at home but she specifically asked me not to because she wanted to be the one sharing the new chapters with me and waiting for me to get to where we could discuss them, and not the other way around. Let your son be the guru of his game. >> During the talk, my husband's voice would raise, and my son would >> start to get up to leave, but I would tell my husband to lower his [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I don't know but it sounds to me like there are bigger issues here > than "competitiveness." Probably, but I'm sure he is a difficult young man right now, anyway! Some adolescents just are, boy or girl. One thing I've learned from my own difficult teenager is that aside from the times when he was letting his ill-humour ooze out for everyone else to enjoy often the problem of the moment was caused by an overreaction to some emotional trigger. Essentially we'd end up fighting about the unreasonable response and its effects on us all rather than discussing what might have been a legitimate complaint or merely a request for something that we'd have been inclined to satisfy if it had been asked for nicely rather than demanded as a right. I have a lot of trouble ignoring snotty, rude behaviour so it's always been hard for me to do as is so often advised and put up with it to some extent (maybe just a greater extent!) to have a quieter life. Something within me rebels at the idea of our family being ruled by a hormonal and selfish teenager's mood swings! But I think it's impossible to avoid that entirely whether you take a hard, moderate or indulgent line - or a combination of all three, which is how it's worked out in our family. I used to think it was most unfair to have our most challenging child as the eldest, the one we have to learn the hardest parenting skills on. Now that he's (almost! ;) ) out of that phase I can rub my hands together happily and say "bring it on, baby!" to his younger siblings! :) >>>>> "Vickie" <vkrajnik@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>> [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > new chapters with me and waiting for me to get to where we could discuss > them, and not the other way around. Let your son be the guru of his game. Your advice is tempting, because I like my kids to be happy. In this case the boy has had such a haughty manner the last few months that I decided I would put my foot down. Don't get me wrong, there have been plenty of times I have bowed out or let him take the lead; why this was so surprising that he would be so posessive about this. I didn't throw the first basketball into his new hoop at Christmas, I held back from sharing my thoughts about the movie we saw when my husband returned home so that he had his chance first, etc etc. I really don't know what is right, but for myself, perhaps I put me first this time. To let you know, we had a decent weekend with him. We played the game as a family, which suits me fine as well. >>> During the talk, my husband's voice would raise, and my son would >>> start to get up to leave, but I would tell my husband to lower his [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > something that we'd have been inclined to satisfy if it had been asked for > nicely rather than demanded as a right. Very, very true! This happens quite a bit. > I have a lot of trouble ignoring snotty, rude behaviour so it's always > been hard for me to do as is so often advised and put up with it to some [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > entirely whether you take a hard, moderate or indulgent line - or a > combination of all three, which is how it's worked out in our family. Since this was a time I decided for things to go my way, my husband has been supporting me in calling some things to my attention. What I mean is that, I pretty much let the kids be very disrespectful to me. It wasn't something I really noticed, if that makes any sense. Just that over the weekend, I heard my husband say to all three of my kids, "Don't talk to your mom that way." He said it a lot! It makes me think I have not disciplined as much as I ought to. > I used to think it was most unfair to have our most challenging child as > the eldest, the one we have to learn the hardest parenting skills on. Now > that he's (almost! ;) ) out of that phase I can rub my hands together > happily and say "bring it on, baby!" to his younger siblings! :) Lol. My eldest has aways been a "good" kid. It is tough on me when I have to discipline him or pull on the reigns. I have had a very trying weekend. Luckily he was not one of my sore spots. Yesterday I think I fell under a depressive fog. I cracked under the pressure of dealing with my sick youngest. A week of her fits and temper pushed me to my limit and I did something so unlike me I felt horrid for the day. It was a sign that I had had enough. I couldn't even rouse a smile to my face for anything. I hate that. I hope today goes better. Vickie >> This is kind of an embarrassing one that happened yesterday. >> My son hid his x-box 360 Rock Band disk from me. From ME! [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > other brother can get to a new level and they play each others characters > so they can advance. I am not sure if you had to take time to control your sons' competitive edge, but this might be the difference. I have always instilled sharing in the family as it was something lacking in my own, so believe me, it galls me, it surprises me that he is the way he is. > They work together pretty well in everything because I have stressed this > to them from the time they were small. When they would bicker, I would say > "One day me dad will die and you will only have each other so you better > get along!", or "You'll be sorry that you said such mean things when we're > dead !" I am so not above guilt tripping. Never said anything to that affect, but I have always stressed working together and including each other since they were babes too. >> Also he makes plenty of jibes at us, then insists he was joking, and why >> we can't understand that he was. > > I think that is thinly disguised aggression. He needs to understand that > jokes can hurt people, and he shouldn't hurt the people that care for him. I agree. His father needs reminders of this too. >> I do see glimmers of the "old" him. I think he struggles with becoming a >> "man" and being just a kid. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > switched my sweet little boy for this angry alien being. It does pass, but > you can't ignore or tolerate bad behavior. True. And that is exactly how I am feeling about my son being body snatched! >> I didn't grow up with a brother or father or any close male influences. >> My husband isn't the talkative type, so I am trying to figure things out [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > competitive sport ? If your husband is not an especially enthusiastic male > influence, these can help. He isn't interested in Scouts. Music he likes, but so far hasn't had the stamina to practice. He is a fish, so he really enjoys swimming. But even in practice he clearly is hyper-competitive. His competitive when we play a friendly game of horse! Vickie >>> This is kind of an embarrassing one that happened yesterday. >>> My son hid his x-box 360 Rock Band disk from me. From ME! [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > lacking in my own, so believe me, it galls me, it surprises me that > he is the way he is. No, my kids have no "competitive edge" whatsoever. They totally do not care about winning anything, which made them totally terrible at all the sports we tried! LOL I think it's a tricky combination of genetics and parental drive (which may also be genetic). I work with a guy who has four kids, older teens to young adults, and they are in so many activities that it makes my head spin. Not trifling ones either, it's "All State" and "Regional Division" and "Eastern Coast" this and that. It's totally alien to me! If a kid gets that far, though, it can't be all parental urging. The kid has to want it badly. >> They work together pretty well in everything because I have stressed >> this to them from the time they were small. When they would bicker, [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > He isn't interested in Scouts. Music he likes, but so far hasn't had > the stamina to practice. He either has the urge, or he doesn't. I know a few professional musicians, some that started when they were barely even teens, and you could not pry them away from their instruments! > He is a fish, so he really enjoys swimming. But even in practice he > clearly is hyper-competitive. > His competitive when we play a friendly game of horse! There's got to be a way to channel that constructively. Sorry I don't have any ideas! >>>> This is kind of an embarrassing one that happened yesterday. >>>> My son hid his x-box 360 Rock Band disk from me. From ME! [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > and that. It's totally alien to me! If a kid gets that far, though, it > can't be all parental urging. The kid has to want it badly. I am not sure how I got so lucky! lol I really am not competitive, so perhaps I can blame the gene on his dad. I *know* I can blame it on my FIL. (remember the friendly football game? ugh!) I also agree if I kid has gotten that far in a sport that it is something they like to do. >>> They work together pretty well in everything because I have stressed >>> this to them from the time they were small. When they would bicker, [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > musicians, some that started when they were barely even teens, and you > could not pry them away from their instruments! I know some of those types as well. >> He is a fish, so he really enjoys swimming. But even in practice he >> clearly is hyper-competitive. >> His competitive when we play a friendly game of horse! > > There's got to be a way to channel that constructively. Sorry I don't have > any ideas! Well, I am pretty clueless. My husband spoke to him about when he can decide there is something sincerely important to him, probably when he is older, such as a specific career, that's when he will be able to use that competitive edge. Vickie > On Mar 12, 10:03 am, "Vickie" <vkraj...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > Now he interrupts his sibs constantly, telling how they are wrong or > just argues with anyone for the sake of it. I am guessing he even pokes them just to here them whine. Just a guess. > He and his sis take swim class, to master their strokes. > God forbid if his sis beats him in freestyle, he goes into fits. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > play at it. > Really I was shocked. As I was told after I stated, "I bought it," the immediate reply was, "then give me money for rent, food, electric, and gas. Then whatever you bought is yours. Until then, do what I say and quit giving me sh#$." Gosh, my mom is so cool. :-) Don't put up with this SH#$. He hides the disk from you, you take the XBOX. Done. End of Story. This is where I agree with Doug in that sometimes there is not argument/discussion. He can debate, argue, pout, or pant his way, but disrespecting mom, NO F'ng WAY! (You see, this is how much love and respect you will get from your son. Unfortunately, he may be 37 before he gives it, though, I hope it happens much sooner.) Realize, you are "Mom." You run that household no matter what anyone says or how they feel about the subject. I really believe in the saying, "if mom isn't happy, no one is happy." Once your son learns that, you then have to watch out for the devious things he will try to do. He will do this because he wants you to be happy and have your approval, yet still do everything he wants, even things you disapprove of. > I told him to think about his reaction in this, because I was > disappointed in him. I don't think I would have said a thing. March right into his room (if that is where the Xbox is) and take it out along with everything else he likes and make him earn it back. Just to get the Xbox back WITHOUT controllers, there needs to be an immediate apology. > He told me later he knows it is wrong to ask this of me, but he can't > change his mind. Ah, you gave him a choice. There is no choice in this subject. "Mom can't play, well neither can you." > Also he makes plenty of jibes at us, then insists he was joking, and why > we can't understand that he was. Because he believes he is right. If he is right, then EVERYONE else is wrong. He then gets a twinge feeling he maybe wrong, well, he can't be wrong so everyone else just don't understand. He is rationalizing. > I do see glimmers of the "old" him. I think he struggles with becoming > a "man" and being just a kid. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > My husband isn't the talkative type, so I am trying to figure things out > myself. Good luck to you on this. > Vickie TGIF. mon >> On Mar 12, 10:03 am, "Vickie" <vkraj...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > I am guessing he even pokes them just to here them whine. Just a guess. Why, of course....grrrr..... >> He and his sis take swim class, to master their strokes. >> God forbid if his sis beats him in freestyle, he goes into fits. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > gas. Then whatever you bought is yours. Until then, do > what I say and quit giving me sh#$." Gosh, my mom is so cool. :-) Lol, sounds like the dad. > Don't put up with this SH#$. He hides the disk from you, you > take the XBOX. Done. End of Story. This is where I agree with Doug > in that sometimes there is not argument/discussion. Yeah, I need to really start up with this and hold firmly. > He can debate, argue, pout, or pant his way, but disrespecting > mom, NO F'ng WAY! (You see, this is how much love and respect > you will get from your son. Unfortunately, he may be 37 before > he gives it, though, I hope it happens much sooner.) But he was such a respectful boy! > Realize, you are "Mom." You run that household no matter what > anyone says or how they feel about the subject. I really believe [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > he wants you to be happy and have your approval, yet still > do everything he wants, even things you disapprove of. Oh geez. That is not going to be fun to handle. >> I told him to think about his reaction in this, because I was >> disappointed in him. > > I don't think I would have said a thing. March right into his > room (if that is where the Xbox is) and take it out along with > everything else he likes and make him earn it back. The more I read, the more I think of what pussy I am! > Just to get the Xbox back WITHOUT controllers, there needs to > be an immediate apology. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > wrong. He then gets a twinge feeling he maybe wrong, well, he can't be > wrong so everyone else just don't understand. He is rationalizing. Yeah, okay. So I was thinking he really was meaning to be witty but it came out wrong. I probably give him too much benefit of the doubt. >> I do see glimmers of the "old" him. I think he struggles with becoming a >> "man" and being just a kid. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Good luck to you on this. Thanks! I wrote a summary of the "discussion" between my son, my husband, and myself to Doug A, if you have a chance to read it. If you get through to the end, you will see that his reaction was along the lines of something you pointed out. I was left feeling foiled again. > TGIF. > > mon Back at ya. Vickie >>> On Mar 12, 10:03 am, "Vickie" <vkraj...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > > Lol, sounds like the dad. The thing my mom knew and I did not realize till a later point in life is that we are VERY much the same. Stubborn, opinionated and PITA's. :-) My mom made sure we knew who was in charge. Unfortunately I did not listen and did not care as I did exactly what she wanted, got good grades, told her where I was and stayed out of jail. See, don't ever say that to you children. Be more specific.... :-) >> Don't put up with this SH#$. He hides the disk from you, you >> take the XBOX. Done. End of Story. This is where I agree with Doug >> in that sometimes there is not argument/discussion. > > Yeah, I need to really start up with this and hold firmly. It it possible you may be doing a disservice to your child by standing firmly. Depends on your perspective. >> He can debate, argue, pout, or pant his way, but disrespecting >> mom, NO F'ng WAY! (You see, this is how much love and respect >> you will get from your son. Unfortunately, he may be 37 before >> he gives it, though, I hope it happens much sooner.) > > But he was such a respectful boy! He still is. Don't ever forget that. Trust me, outside of your home, no one is allowed to diss his mom. Only he can. You're dealing with what I would call a temporary issue. Although temporary can be a few years. >> Realize, you are "Mom." You run that household no matter what >> anyone says or how they feel about the subject. I really believe [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Oh geez. That is not going to be fun to handle. Yeah, this will be fun. :-) He just needs to know that his mom has his back. >>> I told him to think about his reaction in this, because I was >>> disappointed in him. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > The more I read, the more I think of what pussy I am! Not a pussy, just the tiniest of fractions (for lack of a better word) weak. You can do it. Just know that you are helping him and not hurting him. >> Just to get the Xbox back WITHOUT controllers, there needs to >> be an immediate apology. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > came out wrong. > I probably give him too much benefit of the doubt. I tend to have the habit of trying to make jokes and laughing in situations when I feel I am wrong too, so he might be following the same type of pattern. I do admit when I am wrong, but I would much rather make fun of myself and have everyone laughing than appear that I wrong. >>> I do see glimmers of the "old" him. I think he struggles with >>> becoming a "man" and being just a kid. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the lines of something you pointed out. > I was left feeling foiled again. I read it. He doesn't want to hear it because he realized he MAY be wrong. Not that he was wrong, just that he MAY be. Was it pointless. Heck no. Did it make an immediate impact, nope. If he gets in similar situations, he may take a different tactic which means he did learn something after all. You were foiled, your just frustrated. >> TGIF. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Vickie mon > Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore > (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Vickie This is non-sexist, and only a suggestion. Teenagers are rebelling against the parent-child relationship, not their parents. Once they are through that stage, they relate to you as adults. They "come back home," but they are different, and relate differently. During the turmoil, that seems impossible. "It doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen." One of my in-laws tells how her daughter's older brother was just as confused when the sister he knew suddenly wasn't the same any more. Another anecdote: a teenage son said: "I suppose I still want my mommy." His mother said to a female friend: "He will feel better when he has a wife." That all depends on the wife. Doug.  SignatureEven Moses had marital problems, and in a small community. He left town for so long, that he was counted officially dead. >> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore >> (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > differently. During the turmoil, that seems impossible. "It doesn't > happen overnight, but it does happen." I have a sister-in-law that I hold up as the best parent ... pretty much ever. She has raised 3 teenaged sons. Well the last is currently doing it. They rebel(led) neither against teh parent-child relationship nor the parent. The goal of the child throughut his life is to grow up, indeed to separate, from their parents. Since sil recognized this, that spearation was never challenged, merely supervised. Over the course of these boys lives, any freedom could be theirs as soon as the responsibility to do it correctly. Without the responsibility, the freedom cannot be enjoyed. She had very little ltrouble with backtalk and attitude with the boys because the less that they do not have the right to treat Mom with disrespect was a lesson that started at preschool and was consistently reiterated throughout their upbringin. 9That is not to say they were without other scrapes. Teenaged judgement is what it is after all! Aren't all teens supereheros?!?) So I hold out hope that this rebellion against the parent child relationship can be mitigated by approriate parenting through the years. But I believe what you say is true that the relationship ultimately shoudl change. The child becomes and adult and no longer needs parental judgement about whether or not their behavior is responsible. Their own judgmeent is sufficient to the task. > One of my in-laws tells how her daughter's older brother was just as > confused when the sister he knew suddenly wasn't the same any more. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Doug. I think the whole notion of a man moving from mother to wife is just a really nasty image! I sure don't want to be some grown man's mother! >>> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore >>> (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > lives, any freedom could be theirs as soon as the responsibility to do it > correctly. Without the responsibility, the freedom cannot be enjoyed. This is pretty much my philosophy. > She had very little ltrouble with backtalk and attitude with the boys > because the less that they do not have the right to treat Mom with > disrespect was a lesson that started at preschool and was consistently > reiterated throughout their upbringin. 9That is not to say they were > without other scrapes. Teenaged judgement is what it is after all! Aren't > all teens supereheros?!?) For this, I have to give a lot of credit to my mom. She was my sons' caregiver when I went back to work, and they all spent a lot of time with her, and their cousins (my brothers' children that my mom also cared for). She took them everywhere (she has a very active life!) and they were exposed to many different people of all ages. They probably had more exposure to older people than most kids their age, and I always get compliments on how personable and friendly they are. I think a lot of kids today just interact with their parents and their peers and are disconnected from all other examples of personal relationships. > So I hold out hope that this rebellion against the parent child > relationship can be mitigated by approriate parenting through the years. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I think the whole notion of a man moving from mother to wife is just a > really nasty image! I sure don't want to be some grown man's mother! Ick! I agree! Raising a son means raising an adult who can relate to his wife on an equal basis and does not expect to be taken care of. Mothers who do everything for their sons (and daughters) are doing a huge disservice to their future spouses. Heck, maybe your kid will never marry so you'd better make sure he/she is self-sufficient, emotionally and practically. >>>> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore >>>> (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > their peers and are disconnected from all other examples of personal > relationships. That is a good point IMO. >> So I hold out hope that this rebellion against the parent child >> relationship can be mitigated by approriate parenting through the [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Heck, maybe your kid will never marry so you'd better make sure > he/she is self-sufficient, emotionally and practically. >>>>> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore >>>>> (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] >> Heck, maybe your kid will never marry so you'd better make sure >> he/she is self-sufficient, emotionally and practically. One cannot generalise. The meaning I gave to the story is that both husband and wife need to be supported every so often. The 19th century idea that a woman is a helpless baby is false.* Every so often, one or other spouse needs the total acceptance, the safe haven, that they had as a child, and it is part of the other spouse's function to provide that. That is something that I never had as a child - I can only recall never being good enough - and my wife is not an empathetic person. * I really love the incident in Court where we had a woman Magistrate. A young man came before her for getting in a fight in a hotel through old-fashioned chivalry - standing up for a girl, and not his GF. Her Worship said "we girls can look after ourselves." A man's work is important to him. When he has a setback at work, his self-esteem is severely threatened. It is then his wife's job, not to pooh-pooh the feeling, but to reassure him and remind him that he is not a total failure. That is the kind of mothering that I meant. It was once said that when a man has problems at work, his relationship suffers. When a woman has problems in her relationship, her work suffers. The time at my daughter's wedding weekend when I was on the phone to a woman with shingles and "just supported her" is perhaps closer to what I mean. She is an important source in our family tree, and we were to go to dinner with the family that night, but it had to be cancelled. Over the phone, I could hear only a distressed, very uncomfortable child, such as a 3-year-old with chickenpox. She was finding her husband not much support. I simply actively listened, and carried her burden for a few minutes. That is no shame to her. It doesn't lessen my respect for her. I won't comment on her husband - perhaps he was the wrong personality. (Another story pointed out that we nurse our loved ones the way we were nursed, and it may not be the way they were nursed. If one partner got fussed over when ill and the other got left alone, they will do the same to their partner, and it will seem uncaring. The one used to fussing will feel ignored; the other will resent the constant intrusion.) The only point that I am making, is that everybody from time to time gets that isolated feeling. That is one of the things we expect our partner to fill. That is the kind of mothering I meant. A schoolgirl answered the question whether people should marry this way: "Boys should, but not girls. Boys need somebody to pick up after them." My wife agrees with her! Doug L. SignatureThe art of being wise is the art of knowing what to overlook. - William James. >>>>>> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore >>>>>> (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 94 lines] > old-fashioned chivalry - standing up for a girl, and not his GF. Her > Worship said "we girls can look after ourselves." Not knowing the exact incident, if the man question was sticking up for a woman who was being slapped around or picked on by another drunk man who was 6" taller and 40lbs heavier, I say that Magistrate is a total idiot for what she said. Depends on the size difference and the mentality of the men at the time. If it was a small comment made from the man to woman in a bar, the women has a good comeback, and then the other man steps in, I think in this instance, "we girls can look after ourselves" holds water. > A man's work is important to him. When he has a setback at work, his > self-esteem is severely threatened. It is then his wife's job, not to > pooh-pooh the feeling, but to reassure him and remind him that he is not a > total failure. That is the kind of mothering that I meant. Yep. This is so true. To all the wonderful ladies out there, we men greatly appreciate it when you are there at these precise times and how disappointing it when it is missed. > It was once said that when a man has problems at work, his relationship > suffers. When a woman has problems in her relationship, her work suffers. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Doug L. mon > >>>>>> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore > >>>>>> (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 134 lines] > > of the things we expect our partner to fill. That is the kind of mothering > > I meant. I think both genders need this kind of "mothering"--women may feel as invested about their jobs as men do, and men may feel as invested in their family relationships as women do. (I'm not disputing the fact that most men's identities are strongly tied to their jobs--they are. Just noting that some women--such as me--may be equally invested in their professional identities)...the issue is bigger than gender, tho tied of course to gender. I thought Doug's example of "being sick" was perfect. My husband drove me nuts the first couple times I was sick; I had been raised by a mom who left you quietly in bed and occasionally brought ginger ale or soup or crackers. He had been mollycoddled through his youth. His constant attention annoyed me! He learned to leave me alone for the most part and check in to make sure I wasn't in need of soup or soda. When he got sick, I had to remind myself to "mother" him the way he wanted--no natural proclivity to do so--I had to "train" myself. I think most of us want that cherished spouse to be the one we can trust when life is roughest. I am envious of, yet happy for, those of you who have marriages with that type of strength. > > A schoolgirl answered the question whether people should marry this > > way: "Boys should, but not girls. Boys need somebody to pick up after [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > mon >>>>>> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore >>>>>> (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 101 lines] > > A man's work is important to him. I suppose there is absolutely no point to this reply. But it ticks me off to know end. MEN don't necessarily have these stupid generalizations you keep lying on them and neither do women. Every time you say women are this or men are that, I can list half a dozen people who don't fit, myself most often included seconded only by my husband. > When he has a setback at work, his > self-esteem is severely threatened. It is then his wife's job, not to > pooh-pooh the feeling, but to reassure him and remind him that he is > not a total failure. That is the kind of mothering that I meant. If a *person's* self esteem is so easily threateneded that they need a mother, then they perhaps need to work on their self esteem. I mean in a marital relationship it is nice to come home to a loving person who is nce to you after a bad day. But seriously... > It was once said that when a man has problems at work, his > relationship suffers. When a woman has problems in her relationship, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Doug L. > A man's work is important to him. When he has a setback at work, his > self-esteem is severely threatened. It is then his wife's job, not to > pooh-pooh the feeling, but to reassure him and remind him that he is not a > total failure. That is the kind of mothering that I meant. I do NOT regard that as 'mothering'. I regard that as 'being a good partner'. I'd do that for my spouse - and my spouse would do that for me. And I can assure you that I do not think of him as my mother :-) >> A man's work is important to him. When he has a setback at work, his >> self-esteem is severely threatened. It is then his wife's job, not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I do NOT regard that as 'mothering'. I regard that as 'being a good > partner'. I'd do that for my spouse - and my spouse "my spouse" That looks so good in print, Joy. Congratulations! I hope you had a bonza day. :o) > would do that > for me. And I can assure you that I do not think of him as my mother > :-) > Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore > (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Vickie Vickie - I have two sons (both in college right now). My experience may be a bit dated :-), but as I remember the puberty/teen years, many were the phases they went through. Between the hormone changes, the peer group testing, and general daily physical growth, I did not know what to expect from day to day. One day up, one day down. Don't have expectations, and just be patient and caring. That's the only advice I can give. If I were to compare my sons growing up with any comparisons, it would be when my wife was heavily pregnant with them :-) Just know that he's heavily stressed, and just now starting to figure out how to deal with that. BTW, both of my sons still seem to think they know better then me. Don't know if that will ever change. Bob >> Lately I have been have some difficulty with my son, who I adore >> (usually:-). [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > One day up, one day down. Don't have expectations, and just be patient and > caring. I'm trying, but somedays it wears so thin. > That's the only advice I can give. > > If I were to compare my sons growing up with any comparisons, it would be > when my wife was heavily pregnant with them :-) Lol. I share your insinuation of your wife's attitude when I was pregnant myself. Hated it, especially when I was 2 weeks past date! > Just know that he's heavily stressed, and just now starting to figure out > how to deal with that. Okay. > BTW, both of my sons still seem to think they know better then me. Don't > know if that will ever change. I hear that. Vickie |
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