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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / June 2009isn't it ironic....
Well, it's over now for good. After all my years trying to make it work. All those months putting up with the roller coaster and the tirades, and now he's the one that has given up. Apparently, so he says, showing me respect and acceptance is something he cannot do. Meanwhile, he loves another woman. He says he doesn't "love her like that" but she is who he opens his heart to, and shares all his feelings with. He idealizes her, seems to think she's perfect. I could never compete with her. She's married, and lives far away, so it's unlikely that this "friendship" will turn into more, but still it hurts like Hell. Especially since she was once my best friend. For her part, she says it's my fault because I couldn't "read his signs" and tell what he was feeling. I identify with Erin now more than I ever thought I would. Anyway, the lease on my apartment starts soon. He doesn't see why he should do anything at all to help me move out since I was the one who wanted to, hoping that the space would allow us to reconnect and have fun together without all the fighting and resentment. But you know, I'm letting him keep the house without a fight. Staying is so much easier than leaving, so I would think he could lift a finger or two to help me out. He gives me a lot of threats about withholding money and keeping full custody of the kids. I'm not sure whether he will really try it, but with my well documented emotional problems, he might be able to do it. He still tracks everything I do, and will be furious about this post...but he says he's done. Finished for good. So I guess there is no reason to try to appease him anymore. Xorra > Well, it's over now for good. After all my years trying to make it > work. All those months putting up with the roller coaster and the [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Xorra Xorra - I've been following your situation since you first started posting, and I *know* there is a lot of pain you are dealing with. You can't lose a long term relationship, and not have it. It's almost like losing a loved one to an accident. In a way however, I am happy for you. Once you have had time to work through the emotions, I'm sure you will be a happier person. I'd send you an electronic hug if they existed. Bob > Xorra - I've been following your situation since you first started > posting, and I *know* there is a lot of pain you are dealing with. You [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I'd send you an electronic hug if they existed. Thanks, Bob. And I'm trying to focus on the future and realize that it won't always be this way. If nothing else, things are changing, and I was so unhappy before, that change is almost certain to be good. But it's hard to do that when things are so hard right now. I'm scared mostly. BTW, my husband wants to know why I always eviscerate him on here, instead of saying that I love him and want to work things out. The reason is simple -- I come here to discuss the problems. For the longest time, I had no reason to believe that he loved me. Then when he said he did, hope got rekindled. I've been afraid since then that it *can't* be worked out, but I always wanted to. I have told *him* that I love him and want it to work out, but no luck. :-( Xorra >> Xorra - I've been following your situation since you first started >> posting, and I *know* there is a lot of pain you are dealing with. You [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Xorra Xorra - I don't understand your husband's paranoia. I read all of your posts, and I can't think of a single one where you were blowing off steam, and being angry about his actions, as much as being confounded by them. It's going to be his lose. Just start thinking about yourself, the kids, and get to a place more positive in your life. Bob > BTW, my husband wants to know why I always eviscerate him on > here, instead of saying that I love him and want to work things > out. The reason is simple -- I come here to discuss the > problems. No, you come here to feel better about your actions and the decisions you've made, and you find that comfort here because that's what many other people come here do, regardless of the fact that they do not know the facts, and have no way of knowing the facts.  SignatureNOTICE: I treat everything which anyone posts in Usenet as nothing more than a work of fiction with no basis in fact or reality whatsoever. Every comment in every one of my posts is nothing more than a useless opinion or a wild speculation, and must never be taken seriously or as having any positive value to anyone for any reasons. I never assume that there's any more to a story than what I have read, no matter what else the author or anyone else may have posted anywhere. Be advised that my remarks are that of an ignorant layperson, and no one should ever base their decisions upon them under any circumstances. > X-No-archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > people come here do, regardless of the fact that they do not know the > facts, and have no way of knowing the facts. You know what? My therapist says that's a good thing. He said it's really easy to find people who will knock you down, much harder to find people who will support you and say positive things. Xorra >> X-No-archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > harder to find people who will support you and say positive > things. I think you've misinterpreted what your therapist was trying to tell you. But maybe s/he's not all that smart either. > X-No-archive: yes >>> X-No-archive: yes [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I think you've misinterpreted what your therapist was trying to tell you. > But maybe s/he's not all that smart either. I practically quoted him, but you are free to feel he's an idiot if you wish. Xorra >> X-No-archive: yes >>>> X-No-archive: yes [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I practically quoted him, but you are free to feel he's an idiot > if you wish. Quoting him, and understanding are two different things. BTW, you're becoming more like your mentor everyday with the 'but you are free....". I wonder why you think it's necessary to tell me what my freedoms might be. > Well, it's over now for good. After all my years trying to make it work. > All those months putting up with the roller coaster and the tirades, and now [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Xorra So sorry Xorra. I hope that things will turn around in the future. Sometimes, they do. There's a part in your message that indicates some reason for hope at reconciliation: " I was the one who wanted to, > hoping that the space would allow us to reconnect and have fun together > without all the fighting and resentment. " Perhaps I am mistaking the meaning of this. BTW, our situation may seem similar, but there are many differences. You know where you stand with your DH; my problem was primarily that I did not, and I am exercising caution in unravelling the scenarios. Take care, Erin >> Well, it's over now for good. After all my years trying to make it work. >> All those months putting up with the roller coaster and the tirades, and now [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Erin I'm sending you positive Karma also Erin... When the rubber meets the road, we have only each other to depend upon. Bob > >> Well, it's over now for good. After all my years trying to make it work. > >> All those months putting up with the roller coaster and the tirades, and now [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > Bob Hee hee hee - you mean "skid row"? Erin >>>> Well, it's over now for good. After all my years trying to make it work. >>>> All those months putting up with the roller coaster and the tirades, and now [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > Erin Actually not.. skidding (and I know that's not where you were heading), means a lack of control and direction. I would prefer that the both of you on your separate paths, are headed in the right direction. Different, unique, and special. That's how I view both of you. Bob >> Well, it's over now for good. After all my years trying to make it work. >> All those months putting up with the roller coaster and the tirades, and [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >> hoping that the space would allow us to reconnect and have fun together >> without all the fighting and resentment. " I don't know....it is true that when he gets angry or hurt he tends to speak in absolutes, and so his current stance that it's irreconcilably over could change. But normally the absolute only lasts a day or so, and this time it's been something like a week or more. I know I just have to wait and see, but if he's really decided, as he says he is, then I need to try to move on. > Perhaps I am mistaking the meaning of this. BTW, our situation may > seem [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > caution in > unravelling the scenarios. Oh, I know our situations are different. It's only the just-a-friend woman who has taken my place in his heart that is similar. Xorra > >> Well, it's over now for good. After all my years trying to make it work. > >> All those months putting up with the roller coaster and the tirades, and [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > Oh, I know our situations are different. It's only the just-a-friend woman > who has taken my place in his heart that is similar. That may be so-- nothing that can be done about that, except perhaps put on "The thrill is gone" by B.B. King and cry. But time changes everything even the new thrill and then where will he be - heh! There *is* a God. Erin > Xorra >>>> Well, it's over now for good. After all my years trying to make it work. >>>> All those months putting up with the roller coaster and the tirades, and [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > Erin >> Xorra Erin - You just made me LOL.. I don't know if it's my own situation, or the combination of that, and your BB King thought. I've been listening to Buddy Guy (probably has a lot on youtube). So we are kindred spirits on how best to deal with relationship stress :-) Or maybe the 12th (and last song on the Temptations CD of "for lovers only" called "you send me". Sue me, I'm a romantic. Bob > >>>> Well, it's over now for good. After all my years trying to make it work. > >>>> All those months putting up with the roller coaster and the tirades, and [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > > Bob Me too, let's date. :-) Erin > Well, it's over now for good. After all my years trying to make it work. > All those months putting up with the roller coaster and the tirades, and now > he's the one that has given up. Apparently, so he says, showing me respect > and acceptance is something he cannot do. It hurts so much,doesn't it? I can empathize with you about living on a scary roller coaster, but unlike your situation, I was the one who "gave up" because I could not trust or respect my now-STBX anymore. Only it didn't feel like giving up or quitting; it felt like the one direction to take if I wanted to survive (I couldn't even conceptualize "thriving" instead of "surviving" at the time.) > Meanwhile, he loves another woman. He says he doesn't "love her like that" > but she is who he opens his heart to, and shares all his feelings with. He [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > because I couldn't "read his signs" and tell what he was feeling. I > identify with Erin now more than I ever thought I would. Would it be possible to not speak with her for some time? That might help with the pain: not that it will disappear, but that it may help you detach and focus on yourself. > Anyway, the lease on my apartment starts soon. He doesn't see why he should > do anything at all to help me move out since I was the one who wanted to, > hoping that the space would allow us to reconnect and have fun together > without all the fighting and resentment. But you know, I'm letting him keep > the house without a fight. Staying is so much easier than leaving, so I > would think he could lift a finger or two to help me out. That's mean, I think. While I didn't work alongside my STBX to pack, I did a lot of packing for him, which he did express appreciation for (he said, once, that he wished he had a magic wand and could just disappear in one fell swoop, which of course hurt a lot, but I decided I may as well help him get out fast,since that's what he wanted and he was getting out anyway). > He gives me a lot of threats about withholding money and keeping full > custody of the kids. I'm not sure whether he will really try it, but with > my well documented emotional problems, he might be able to do it. You were married quite a while, and most states have pretty strict legal criteria for divorce. Hire a damn good lawyer. Most of the money issues will be "pre-set" by the law. I don't know about how custody works, since no minor children are involved in my divorce, but your damn good lawyer will know. > He still tracks everything I do, and will be furious about this post...but > he says he's done. Finished for good. So I guess there is no reason to try > to appease him anymore. Correct. Appease yourself. You deserve it. Xorra, you know my heart goes out to you. My hope is that in one year from this day, June 23, you will have baby-stepped into a direction that finds you healthier and happier. Keep on posting, for we love you. Fill > Xorra >> Well, it's over now for good. After all my years trying to make it work. >> All those months putting up with the roller coaster and the tirades, and now [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > Fill >> Xorra Fill - The whole cabin thing is working for you... I'm glad to hear the "you" poking out :-) It's never easy dealing with long term relationship issues, but you certainly seem on the path to healing. I'm glad for you, I really am. Bob > >> Well, it's over now for good. After all my years trying to make it work. > >> All those months putting up with the roller coaster and the tirades, and now [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > Bob Thanks Bob. When my friends came up for the weekend--they hadn't seen me since early-May--we hugged in gretting, and one of them stepped back, took a look at me, and said, "You really *are* fine. She could see what you apparently hear. And it's a lovely warm morning here in northern WI, and I just finished a phone conference about a writing assignment (the outline was approved; now I have to write the damn thing), and now I'm going to take the kayak out for a nice long paddle. :) Look at loons and ducks and otters and herons and eagles and such. Hope you have a nice day, too. Fill > > Well, it's over now for good. After all my years trying to make it work. > > All those months putting up with the roller coaster and the tirades, and now [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I can relate with you Phelbooth about the breaking up to survive thing. I've done that a number of times with my hubby but ended back with him. I feel like I need to end this roller coaster ride because I don't know what is going on. > Well, it's over now for good. After all my years trying to make it > work. All those months putting up with the roller coaster and the > tirades, and now he's the one that has given up. Apparently, so he > says, showing me respect and acceptance is something he cannot do. Dear Xorra, This must be very painful for you, and I'm very sorry. At the same time, given the glimpse of your relationship you've provided here, it may be for the best. There is another issue that comes up. When a marriage ends and their are kids, the relationship between the partners doesn't end - it changes. You say that your husband says he cannot show you respect and acceptance. Is that _really_ what he says? Or is that how you interpret what he says? Even if your marriage is ending, this sort of distinction remains an issue because your relationship _won't_ end. As far as the "other woman," of course you have every right to feel betrayed by her as a friend. But keep in mind that she is not the _cause_ of the problems. Whatever went wrong in your marriage meant that you and your husband (again, from the perspective you showed here) haven't had places in each others hearts for a long time now. Xorra, I think this situation with your husband is very painful for you. All I can say is be strong for your kids and settle the situation calmly. I think you can do it. For the sake of your children. How old and how many are they? Where are they now? Leah Marie, Prozac Nation Signatureprozac nation > As far as the "other woman," of course you have every right to > feel betrayed by her as a friend. Well thank God we all have you to explain to us what our rights are. Okay, my husband says this post is all lies, and I must post the truth here. Now, of course this is his truth, the way what I wrote below is my truth, but nonetheless, it is how he views things. If I've sprinkled my own thoughts in there, they are clearly marked as such. He says first of all that I have treated his relationship with this woman unfairly. That they are just friends, and he doesn't idealize her. He says that she listens to him in a way that I don't, and perhaps never have. He says he doesn't love her, though he has said before that he does, but it's like a sister. He also says that she never betrayed me. Furthermore, he thinks that by saying how hard I tried, I'm insinuating that he never did. He says he tried really hard in the months following our first separation, and that it was never enough, and that's why he gave up. He doesn't think we can ever make each other happy. And he says he was trying in the years before that too. He said he'd try to get me to come watch TV with him, or come to bed with him, and all I wanted to do was be on the computer day and night. I acknowledge that this is true, it's just that to me it all came across as anger, and I didn't have an indication that he really desired to spend time with me. He also said that the lack of sex was a real rejection to him. Though he didn't bring it up, he also says that I had ceased to do pretty much everything around the house. This is also true, though there is a history behind it which I won't go into. And in short, he says that he realized I was depressed, and he tried to support me by picking up the slack, but after awhile he came to think that I was using it as an excuse, and/or not doing anything, or at least not enough to cure it. Though he realized I was unhappy, he never thought I would do something like look for love on the computer. He feels that there is no excuse for what I did, no matter what I thought he'd done or not done in our relationship. (I agree with that). Um...I think I've done justice to his side here, but if not I'm sure he will tell me and I can try again. Xorra > idealizes her, seems to think she's perfect. I could never compete with > her. She's married, and lives far away, so it's unlikely that this [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Xorra > Okay, my husband says this post is all lies, I think the chances that his view is valid is pretty high. > He says first of all that I have treated his relationship with > this woman unfairly. That they are just friends, and he doesn't [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > on the computer day and night. I acknowledge that this is true, > it's just that Here's part of the problem. When he does what he does, to you, it's that he does it. Period. But when you do what you do, it's "it's just that.......", and it's all back on him again. One way or another, "your truth" is that everything bad in this relationship begins, in one way or another, with him. Everything you do is just a reaction to him. Could it be that his truth is that everything he does is just a reaction to you? > to me it all came across as anger, and I didn't > have an indication that he really desired to spend time with me. > He also said that the lack of sex was a real rejection to him. > Though he didn't bring it up, he also says that I had ceased to > do pretty much everything around the house. This is also true, > though there is a history behind it which I won't go into. "it's true, but.....". > And in short, he says that he realized I was depressed, and he > tried to support me by picking up the slack, but after awhile he > came to think that I was using it as an excuse, and/or not doing > anything, or at least not enough to cure it. Well, I've seen you jump in and out of the depression as an excuse thing right here, so I think that's probably true. > Though he realized > I was unhappy, he never thought I would do something like look > for love on the computer. He feels that there is no excuse for > what I did, no matter what I thought he'd done or not done in > our relationship. (I agree with that). Me too! > Um...I think I've done justice to his side here, but if not I'm > sure he will tell me and I can try again. I think I'm not alone in saying that his side has been pretty obvious for a while now. > X-No-archive: yes >> Okay, my husband says this post is all lies, > > I think the chances that his view is valid is pretty high. Valid? or Correct? >> He says first of all that I have treated his relationship with >> this woman unfairly. That they are just friends, and he doesn't [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > another, with him. Everything you do is just a reaction to him. Could it > be that his truth is that everything he does is just a reaction to you? Funny, but his "truth" is that it all begins and ends with me. That's what happens when you have two people who can't agree. They each behave in the way that they think is right. Besides, all I was saying in that sentence is that he wanted to communicate one thing, and I understood something different. That isn't making it begin and end with him. I really tried hard NOT to counter-argue everything he said in this post. >> to me it all came across as anger, and I didn't >> have an indication that he really desired to spend time with me. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > "it's true, but.....". I could have argued that it wasn't true. And it isn't completely true, there are plenty of things I was still doing, but there were plenty of others that for one reason or another I had given up. Rather than argue it, I just acknowledged that it was the truth but not the whole story. Again, not putting it all on him. >> And in short, he says that he realized I was depressed, and he >> tried to support me by picking up the slack, but after awhile he [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Well, I've seen you jump in and out of the depression as an excuse thing > right here, so I think that's probably true. If I recall correctly, you are not a psychiatrist, psycologist, or therapist. So perhaps you should leave discussion of the effects of the disease up to the people who know what they are talking about. >> Though he realized >> I was unhappy, he never thought I would do something like look [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I think I'm not alone in saying that his side has been pretty obvious for > a while now. Well, no duh, since I've never tried to hide it and in fact have made previous attempts to explain things from his side. First from what I thought it would be, and later with what he told me he wanted said. Xorra > > X-No-archive: yes > >> Okay, my husband says this post is all lies, [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > > Xorra He said, I said, she said, then he said.... actions speak louder than words, and observation requires patience. My new scenario: MDMA. Erin >> X-No-archive: yes >>> Okay, my husband says this post is all lies, >> >> I think the chances that his view is valid is pretty high. > > Valid? or Correct? So there's your truth, his truth, and then correct? Who holds the the keys to the kingdom of the truth? I thought it was Doug and Steph, but I guess it incudes you too. >>> He says first of all that I have treated his relationship with >>> this woman unfairly. That they are just friends, and he [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Funny, but his "truth" is that it all begins and ends with me. That's exactly what I asked, and if that's true, then you're *both* idiots. > That's what happens when you have two people who can't agree. Not only is that not at all true, but you've got cause and effect all twisted around. One of the reasons some people end up in acrimony is because they will not let go of the thought that disagreement must mean that one person has a much better grasp on the truth than the other person (i.e, that one is right, and the other is wrong). You did a great job of parroting the whole 'his truth, my truth' thing as though you got it, but statements like your's above prove that you don't get it at all. > They each behave in the way that they think is right. But avoiding friction and acrimony means allowing for the fact that there is another 'right' which might be just as valid, or, God forbid, even allowing for the possibility that you might be wrong about something you think is right. You haven't displayed the ability to believe this. You parrot it, but your actions, and even the comment above, are inconsistent with someone who believes it. > Besides, > all I was saying in that sentence is that he wanted to > communicate one thing, and I understood something different. That > isn't making it begin and end with him. I really tried > hard NOT to counter-argue everything he said in this post. You failed. >>> to me it all came across as anger, and I didn't >>> have an indication that he really desired to spend time with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I could have argued that it wasn't true. So now you think you deserve credit for telling the truth instead of criticism for telling the truth about your behavior, but then adding a 'but'? No. Telling the truth is the default condition, and so it doesn't negate the fact that you tried to qualify your behavior somehow. > And it isn't > completely true, there are plenty of things I was still doing, > but there were plenty of others that for one reason or another I > had given up. Rather than argue it, I just acknowledged that it > was the truth but not the whole story. Again, not putting it > all on him. You're back to this mysterious 'there's more to the truth, and so I'll allude to it, but I won't tell you what it is so that you can't test it' stuff. If he had stopped doing everything around the house, you'd say that he stopped doing everything around the house. Period. I've never, ever read one of your posts where you say he did this or that, but it's not the whole truth. You start and stop with his behavior. But yours? There's always some deeper truth. >>> And in short, he says that he realized I was depressed, and he >>> tried to support me by picking up the slack, but after awhile [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > effects of the disease up to the people who know what they are > talking about. Ironically, I've never seen you post anything of the sort when people lecture your critics on the basis of 'your depression' and how depression works. And they're not professionals either. Again, it's all about selectively picking and choosing what it is that will enable you to reaffirm that you are right, and he is wrong. That you're the good guy, and he's the bad guy. Besides, I wasn't talking about depression per se. I was talking about how you jump in and out of using it as an excuse. >>> Though he realized >>> I was unhappy, he never thought I would do something like look [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > from what I thought it would be, and later with what he told me > he wanted said. You give yourself too much credit. The reason that his side has been pretty obvious is specifically because of your constant and incessant vilification of him despite the fact that you stayed with him for so long, while all the time excusing what little you admit on the basis that there's always more to the story. I was going to respond to this, but then decided not to get into another pointless discussion with you. Xorra > X-No-archive: yes >>> X-No-archive: yes [quoted text clipped - 144 lines] > while all the time excusing what little you admit on the basis that > there's always more to the story. > I was going to respond to this, but then decided not to get into > another pointless discussion with you. I have no doubt that you would regard all of it as pointless. After all, it's not what you want to hear, and so it's inconsistent with the reason for your post. Or maybe it's just that even you would have to acknowledge that your logic has failed miserably. Well, I wish you both well anyway. I'm sure that the *both* of you will be much happier this way. SignatureNOTICE: I treat everything which anyone posts in Usenet as nothing more than a work of fiction with no basis in fact or reality whatsoever. Every comment in every one of my posts is nothing more than a useless opinion or a wild speculation, and must never be taken seriously or as having any positive value to anyone for any reasons. I never assume that there's any more to a story than what I have read, no matter what else the author or anyone else may have posted anywhere. Be advised that my remarks are that of an ignorant layperson, and no one should ever base their decisions upon them under any circumstances. >> X-No-archive: yes >>>> X-No-archive: yes [quoted text clipped - 154 lines] >> excusing what little you admit on the basis that there's always >> more to the story. > X-No-archive: yes >> I was going to respond to this, but then decided not to get into [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Well, I wish you both well anyway. I'm sure that the *both* of you > will be much happier this way. AY - You have to admit that it's hard not to be angry/upset/resentful when both parties act as though they do not respect each other. And when you have those feelings, but love someone, how you feel about it fluctuates multiple times a day. I'm sure contrary posts occur, etc. I'm actually sad for the both of them. These type issues could be avoided had they both given each other the mature respect and nurturing that life partners need to do by default. Everyone shares the blame in these situations. No need to be mean to someone on how they are dealing with their half of that kind of situation. It's counter productive. Regards, Bob >> X-No-archive: yes >>> I was going to respond to this, but then decided not to get [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > No need to be mean to someone on how they are dealing with their > half of that kind of situation. It's counter productive. I agree that there's no need to be mean to someone on how they are dealing with their half of that kind of situation. And I believe that too many people have been mean to Xorra by enabling her to get exactly what she wants by posting here, which is validation that her behavior is either proper, or at the very least justifiable, while his behavior is both improper and without justification. I think that's a major reason why she's continued with her half of "act[ing] as though they do not respect each other", and why she's not done her half of providing "mature respect and nurturing that life partners need to do by default". I think Xorra deserves honest responses to her conscious and deliberate invitation for public comments and opinions about her situation, and my honest comment and opinion is that everything she posts shows me that she much more interested in being right, and vindicated as to her behavior rather than about building a rewarding relationship. Well, she got her wish. She believes herself to be largely right, or at least justified, and believes him to be largely wrong without any justification. Of course, the relationship is dead, but it seems as though that was only of minor importance anyway. > Okay, my husband says this post is all lies, and I must post the truth here. > Now, of course this is his truth, the way what I wrote below is my truth, [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > > Xorra OK, even without anyone's viewpoint being all lies... When he says, "He says he tried really hard in the months following our first separation, and that it was never enough, and that's why he gave up. He doesn't think we can ever make each other happy, " isn't it basically what *you* have been saying? You've said he was trying (telling you he loved you, trying to be more open, etc.). You've said you weren't happy. You've said that it was starting to look to you that even when he tried he couldn't produce the kind of responses you need. Am I wrong? How are the two of you in disagreement, other than how long you should persist in trying to fix things? Sarah On Jun 24, 8:46 am, "Xorra" <zor...@comcast.net> wrote: > Okay, my husband says this post is all lies, and I must post the truth > here. [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > > Xorra OK, even without anyone's viewpoint being all lies... When he says, "He says he tried really hard in the months following our first separation, and that it was never enough, and that's why he gave up. He doesn't think we can ever make each other happy, " isn't it basically what *you* have been saying? You've said he was trying (telling you he loved you, trying to be more open, etc.). You've said you weren't happy. You've said that it was starting to look to you that even when he tried he couldn't produce the kind of responses you need. Am I wrong? How are the two of you in disagreement, other than how long you should persist in trying to fix things? Sarah ____________________________________________________ Yes, sort of, but you know, after he changed and told me he loved me, I got my hopes up. I have tried since then to find a way we can work things out. I never cut him off. So for him to so suddenly cut ME off hurts. I thought we'd made some progress, but apparently he doesn't agree. It's just...you know, in October, I was detached, and ready to go. In the months since, my love has been rekindled, fed by his declarations of love for me. And now, suddenly, he's done. It's like I'd never made any progress at all. Back exactly where I was a year ago. Except that now he's the one that's leaving, and I'm just left sitting there. Xorra > On Jun 24, 8:46 am, "Xorra" <zor...@comcast.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 103 lines] > > Xorra Well, I can totally understand that it hurts. I wouldn't want my husband to give up on our marriage even if I was feeling iffy about it, it would still be painful. It just seems to me it's not that hard to understand why he might find the situation hard to deal with. You grant he *has* been trying, you grant that he has changed some important behaviors, but while that might have gotten your hopes up, I don't remember any post from you since you moved back in that seemed - genuinely happy with the marriage, or him? I realize you're operating from the perspective of having been miserable for years, as someone else said in this thread, but still, I can also imagine how discouraging it might be from his perspective to have made what probably felt like radical changes, in the face of a spouse's semi-infidelity, and STILL not get much of a positive response. I'm thinking of a thread from the beginning of this year where you were saying that he was suffocating you, specifically. Sarah On Jun 24, 11:17 pm, "Xorra" <zor...@comcast.net> wrote: > "Sarah Lister" <aliaslis...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 119 lines] > > Xorra Well, I can totally understand that it hurts. I wouldn't want my husband to give up on our marriage even if I was feeling iffy about it, it would still be painful. It just seems to me it's not that hard to understand why he might find the situation hard to deal with. You grant he *has* been trying, you grant that he has changed some important behaviors, but while that might have gotten your hopes up, I don't remember any post from you since you moved back in that seemed - genuinely happy with the marriage, or him? I realize you're operating from the perspective of having been miserable for years, as someone else said in this thread, but still, I can also imagine how discouraging it might be from his perspective to have made what probably felt like radical changes, in the face of a spouse's semi-infidelity, and STILL not get much of a positive response. I'm thinking of a thread from the beginning of this year where you were saying that he was suffocating you, specifically. _____________________________________________________ Oh, yeah, I understand what you are saying, and I'm sure you are right. But I get frustrated by the all or nothing that I feel I get from him. For all that time, there was no I love you or touching at all. Then boom, he was holding me and telling me he loved me and wanted me all the time. Then boom, he'd given up and that was it, he was irrevocably done. I do things slowly. Too slowly, I agree. It took me way to long to leave in the first place. When he suddenly became so affectionate, I was afraid to trust that it was real. It takes me time to adjust to these things, and with all the other turmoil going on, it was even more difficult for me. He was frustrated that it was taking me too long to make the changes he wanted of me, and I was frustrated that after making that one change, he rejected the idea of making any more. For the longest time, i was the one who thought I needed to move out. But I hoped that by doing so, we could get the space we needed not to fight all the time. That we could both heal and recover. That we could choose our time together so that it would be good time and start making a store of positive memories. And that by doing this and working with a therapist together, that we could, over time, get to the marriage that we both wanted. I told him all this, along with the fact that I personally need to learn to stand on my own again, because I'd become way too dependant on him for too many things. But it seemed that he could never get past the idea that if I moved out, it was the end. That I was giving up on him and the marriage. I never did move out as long as he was asking me not to, but I also didn't give up on the idea that it was what was necessary. And I did move out of the bedroom again. I think that was the killing blow for him. That convinced him that I had no interest in saving the marriage. If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't have done that. At the time I did it because I felt that neither he nor the therapist we were seeing was listening to me. That my remaining issues were just being ignored. I wanted him/them to know that I wasn't done yet. But if I'd stayed in the bedroom, while we might still be together, nothing would have changed. I really don't know how I could have made myself heard in a meaningful way. So...well, I'm not sure what I should have and could have done. I just wish he'd understood my slowness...how it takes me a while to change my mindset, and not decided that since I hadn't gotten there yet, I never would. I really think we'd made progress and that given more time.... Now all I can hope for is that he changes his mind again. Xorra > On Jun 24, 11:17 pm, "Xorra" <zor...@comcast.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 185 lines] > > Now all I can hope for is that he changes his mind again. Well, I hope so too since that's still what you want to pursue. It just seemed to me that by calling his moving out "ironic", you were implying that all the sadness and hurt was on your part alone and that therefore it was inexplicable and kind of darkly humorous that he was the one wanting to call it quits right now. From a total third-hand observer's perspective, it's awfully easy for me to understand how trying one's hardest and getting told that the marriage was still so unsatisfactory that the other person might move out again* might hurt enough to cause one to feel like, eh, fine, if even my best effort isn't remotely close to good enough, what's the point? I know you've been having an awful time, but honestly this must all have been really hard on him too. * I know that for you this wasn't meant to be hurtful or negative, but living and sleeping together is so firmly integrated into the cultural norms of marriage in this society that it would probably be really hard for a lot of people to accept this and not feel hurt by it. In fact, you say he told you that he *would* feel hurt by it and wouldn't be able to accept it - and you did it anyway, or at least took steps in that direction by moving out of the bedroom. Sure enough, he couldn't accept it. I sort of feel like you're trying to have it both ways here. When it's your actions, you want intent to count for everything; you intended this second moving-out to be positive, so he should see it as positive. When it's his actions, you don't give much shrift to intent; it's their effect, specifically on you, that you want to count. This is human nature to some extent - it's sort of like an inversion of the fundamental attribution error - but I think it's possible that just in the same way that his attempts to bring you closer came across to you as anger or suffocation or too quick to be trusted, your resistance to that closeness, however much sense it made to you or how essential it seemed at the time, came across to him as rejection (not to mention how much the outside relationships must have seemed like rejection too). Sarah In news:f03aba93-3f65-460b-b09c-6669d2170ede@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com, Sarah Lister <aliaslister@yahoo.com> mused: > couldn't accept it. I sort of feel like you're trying to have > it both ways here. When it's your actions, you want intent to > count for everything; you intended this second moving-out to be > positive, so he should see it as positive. When it's his > actions, you don't give much shrift to intent; it's their > effect, specifically on you, that you want to count. I could not possibly agree more. That's why I said the same thing. This is all about wnning, and not about building. > X-No-archive: yes > In [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I could not possibly agree more. That's why I said the same thing. > This is all about wnning, and not about building. AY - I agreed also, but Sarah has such a better way of stating what we think is obvious :-) Bob >> X-No-archive: yes >> In [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Bob Ya think. Bob??? Nah, can't be. (gee now, I really wonder why...) Well, I hope so too since that's still what you want to pursue. It just seemed to me that by calling his moving out "ironic", you were implying that all the sadness and hurt was on your part alone and that therefore it was inexplicable and kind of darkly humorous that he was the one wanting to call it quits right now. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I just meant it was ironic that he was the one to move out after I'd been the one talking about it. Nothing was meant to be implied about who was, or was more, hurting and sad. ______________________________________________________ From a total third-hand observer's perspective, it's awfully easy for me to understand how trying one's hardest and getting told that the marriage was still so unsatisfactory that the other person might move out again* might hurt enough to cause one to feel like, eh, fine, if even my best effort isn't remotely close to good enough, what's the point? I know you've been having an awful time, but honestly this must all have been really hard on him too. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ no argument there ______________________________________________________ * I know that for you this wasn't meant to be hurtful or negative, but living and sleeping together is so firmly integrated into the cultural norms of marriage in this society that it would probably be really hard for a lot of people to accept this and not feel hurt by it. In fact, you say he told you that he *would* feel hurt by it and wouldn't be able to accept it - and you did it anyway, or at least took steps in that direction by moving out of the bedroom. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Steps in that direction? Maybe, but the fact is that as long as he didn't want me to move out, I didn't move out. ______________________________________________________ Sure enough, he couldn't accept it. I sort of feel like you're trying to have it both ways here. When it's your actions, you want intent to count for everything; you intended this second moving-out to be positive, so he should see it as positive. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Not just my intent, but my stated intent. I spoke to him at length about my reasons and what I was hoping for. And again, I didn't actually do it because he had not agreed. _____________________________________________________ When it's his actions, you don't give much shrift to intent; it's their effect, specifically on you, that you want to count. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This I don't quite get, because I'm not sure how it applies to this situation. If you are talking about his leaving, well his intent is to divorce. I'm not happy with that of course. But perhaps you mean his intent in showing affection. I'd have to disagree with that. I knew he was trying very hard, and I even told Vickie that on so many occasions. It was his efforts that made me realize how much he still cares. And it was that which made me stick it out through the roller coaster ride and the tirades, and in spite of my own doubts and fears. I most certainly recognized the intent and it affected my behavior and decision making markedly. So, I don't understand what you mean, and you will have to explain further. Xorra ________________________________________________ This is human nature to some extent - it's sort of like an inversion of the fundamental attribution error - but I think it's possible that just in the same way that his attempts to bring you closer came across to you as anger or suffocation or too quick to be trusted, your resistance to that closeness, however much sense it made to you or how essential it seemed at the time, came across to him as rejection (not to mention how much the outside relationships must have seemed like rejection too). > Well, I hope so too since that's still what you want to pursue. It > just seemed to me that by calling his moving out "ironic", you were [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > rejection (not to mention how much the outside relationships must have > seemed like rejection too). Xorra - I hope you'll keep posting to ASM. But I hope you'll get a real newsreader first. Trying to make head or tail of this post is impossible. There are some reasons why the quoting conventions on USENET are popular... >> Well, I hope so too since that's still what you want to pursue. It >> just seemed to me that by calling his moving out "ironic", you were [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > There are some reasons why the quoting conventions on USENET are > popular... I know. but I'm really used to this one. As for continuing to post, I'm considering not. Most of the people who used to respond to my posts have either left or stopped responding. As a place to get advice it's use has become limited at best. And DH enjoys anything said "against" me. He throws it in my face. Well, except for AY who he calls an angry troll. Xorra (snip) > As for continuing to post, I'm considering not. Most of the people > who used to respond to my posts have either left or stopped > responding. As a place to get advice it's use has become limited at > best. And DH enjoys anything said "against" me. He throws it in my > face. Well, except for AY who he calls an angry troll. Certainly ASM is not what its been, though if there is something interesting going on people seem to emerge from the woodwork (actually I can't tell if ASM has woodwork). As far as a place to get advice, I suspect it would still work for that, but the volume of such posts has gotten too low to encourage new people to ask. (We keep getting posts like "I want to talk about X" but then the person doesn't actually post anything.) In your case of course, your posting has been quite constrained in recent months (years? I can't keep track) and it is certainly hard to know what advice to give that could possibly be useful to you and your husband other than to find someone really good for joint counseling. If I could wave a magic wand for you, I'd use it to deal with your depression. Besides being a huge thing in and of itself, it is a giant obstacle to working on improving relationships. BUt I _know_ I don't have any advice about _how_ to deal with depression, just the certainty that it is of paramount importance. > (snip) > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > interesting going on people seem to emerge from the woodwork (actually > I can't tell if ASM has woodwork). I think it does. > As far as a place to get advice, I suspect it would still work for > that, but the volume of such posts has gotten too low to encourage new > people to ask. (We keep getting posts like "I want to talk about X" > but then the person doesn't actually post anything.) I'm not sure which posts you're referring to there, but, maybe... > In your case of course, your posting has been quite constrained in > recent months (years? I can't keep track) and it is certainly hard to > know what advice to give that could possibly be useful to you and your > husband other than to find someone really good for joint counseling. Yes, if it's not too late already. > If I could wave a magic wand for you, I'd use it to deal with your > depression. Besides being a huge thing in and of itself, it is a > giant obstacle to working on improving relationships. But I _know_ I > don't have any advice about _how_ to deal with depression, just the > certainty that it is of paramount importance. Antidepressants, counseling therapy, and a change in lifestyle. (Or at least that's what the billboard says). > There are some reasons why the quoting conventions on USENET are > popular... And you can use that technique to mischarachterize and lie about what's been posted. > Okay, my husband says this post is all lies, and I must post the > truth here. Now, of course this is his truth, the way what I wrote [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Um...I think I've done justice to his side here, but if not I'm sure > he will tell me and I can try again. He's justifying. |
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