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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / July 2009The other counsellors
I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have not seriously considered-- the role of (aka) Lady Macbeth. "Glamis thou art, and Cawdor, and shalt be What thou art promis'd. Yet do I fear thy nature, It is too full o' th' milk of human kindness To catch the nearest way." Everyone plays a part. Erin > I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, > until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Erin For the record: ____________ I made an appointment for my husband with his doctor, as he has had nausea, weakness, vertigo, and headaches for some 3 years now. His depression prevents him from helping himself. His vomiting and nausea comes after meals; it could be anything from concussion side effects, to drugs, to *something* else. Erin >> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > some 3 years now. His depression prevents him from > helping himself. That is the most insidious aspect of it. And it really sucks. It's kinda like ... there's a rope out there to climb out of the pit, but you can't reach it, as your hands are too slippery and you can't get a grip. > >> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, > >> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > It's kinda like ... there's a rope out there to climb out of the pit, but > you can't reach it, as your hands are too slippery and you can't get a grip. What is the most insidious aspect of what? Please clarify. Erin >>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Erin This part, where you said: "His depression prevents him from helping himself". If its serious and clinical, that pretty much goes with its territory. Just like being short of breath or having difficulty breathing goes with emphysema. Like hand and glove. >>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Just like being short of breath or having difficulty breathing goes with > emphysema. Like hand and glove. He is likely to not get better until he does quit the "I'm so screwed up" syndrome, and go get help in whatever form that takes. Bob > >>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, > >>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Bob OK - absolutely; it's a Catch-22 situation, that's why i have been wondering why doctors do not encourage him to get psychiatric help. I think his meds are inappropriate. But, it's possible that I have to accept that. I'm being very nice to him. I want to point out that I always have been, and it saddens me to have been maligned for this by him and his friend, as opting for the anti-psychiatry method made him so much worse and caused fear and stress for all (suicide). But that's history. He went back on his yucky drugs-- needs better ones - Remeron was good. Erin > > >>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, > > >>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Erin Just joined the group. I have a TON of experience in dealing with depression and what it does to family members who are trying to live with that depression. Perhaps I might be of some assistance. Just offering. > > > >>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, > > > >>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > with that depression. Perhaps I might be of some assistance. Just > offering. Hi Koru Lyn, Thanks. Your comments are welcome. Maybe you have personal experience or work in the field? Tx Erin >>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > been wondering why doctors do not encourage him to get > psychiatric help. The doctors can do all the "encouraging" they want, but until he opens up to it, its kind of moot. When the time is right, maybe he'll see the light. It's kind of like being an alcoholic or a drug addict, I think. > I think his meds are inappropriate. But, it's > possible that I have to accept that. I'm being very nice to him. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Erin >>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > to it, its kind of moot. When the time is right, maybe he'll see the > light. It's kind of like being an alcoholic or a drug addict, I think. The other problem is that not everyone responds well to drugs. And even if they do, drugs are not a cure, they help relieve symptoms. Sometimes people can build up a resistance to a drug they've been on for a while. Maybe one day they will be able to pin down the cause and come up with a really effective treatment, but they aren't there yet. Xorra > >>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, > >>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > Xorra Thanks Xorra, Bill in Co. It's another hardship for me. Erin >>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > Erin Xorra - It's only a hardship if you let it be. Even those you love have to make choices on their own. Good or bad, and sometimes tragic for those that love them, they don't make the right choices. And chance are, that's because they were not committed to resolving their issues. That is not your fault, or responsibility. Bob > >>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, > >>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > Bob Sounds ominous - is there some inside information here about his incumbent suicide? Scary. BTW, what's this about Xorra leaving? I really wish I could get some information. I feel as if I am being sheltered from some terrible truth. Erin >>>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > Erin Erin - The only thing you've been sheltered from is our caring about you. Xorra has had a number of issues over the last months, that we have all been reading about, caring about, and having opinions on. And hopefully in the long run, she knows we care about her, and wish her well. But one thing you should know about the lot of us? We all have independent thoughts and opinions. But we all think/wish well all that have heartache here. I hope that makes sense for you. We are here to listen to you if you care or need that. Bob >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >>>>>>>>>>>> he has had nausea, weakness, vertigo, and headaches for >>>>>>>>>>>> some 3 years now. >>>>>>>>>>>> His depression prevents him from helping himself. >>>>>>>>>>> That is the most insidious aspect of it. And it really sucks. >>>>>>>>>>> It's kinda like ... there's a rope out there to climb out of the >>>>>>>>>>> pit, but >>>>>>>>>>> you can't reach it, as your hands are too slippery and you can't >>>>>>>>>>> get a grip. >>>>>>>>>> What is the most insidious aspect of what? Please clarify. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Erin >>>>>>>>> This part, where you said: >>>>>>>>> "His depression prevents him from helping himself". [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>> OK - absolutely; it's a Catch-22 situation, that's why i have >>>>>>> been wondering why doctors do not encourage him to get >>>>>>> psychiatric help. >>>>>> The doctors can do all the "encouraging" they want, but until he >>>>>> opens up to it, its kind of moot. When the time is right, maybe [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >>>>> >>>>> Xorra >>>> Thanks Xorra, Bill in Co. It's another hardship for me. >>>> >>>> Erin >>> Xorra - It's only a hardship if you let it be. Even those you love have >>> to make choices on their own. Good or bad, and sometimes tragic for [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > independent thoughts and opinions. But we all think/wish well all that > have heartache here. I hope that makes sense for you. Well, almost all. I can think of one prominent exception. > We are here to listen to you if you care or need that. > > Bob At least several of us are. >>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] >> >> Erin Bill - I think you hit the nail on the head with your thought here. Even a smoker will not quit until the decision is made "I will not smoke another cigarette" occurs. No one can provide that, as it has to come from with in. I'm a 38 year smoker that quit 01/01/2007. The occasional urge hits, but I now have resolve. I wouldn't have had I not been ready (inside). Bob >>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > > Bob I quit in 1987, and I had been a one-pack (or half pack) a day smoker for most of my life, prior to that. But somehow, and in some way, the time just came... Like most things, "it has to come from within". It's soooo frustrating, but, it is what it is.... > >>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, > >>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > Like most things, "it has to come from within". It's soooo frustrating, > but, it is what it is.... What has to come from within? And what is not coming from within now? My life has become a ******* riddle. When is the cloak and dagger show going to end? Erin >>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > > Erin What cloak and dagger show??? I generally mean that the answer or solution for each of us, for the issues we're facing, has to "come from within" us. Nobody else can solve it for us, or can give it to us. Until we (generic we) see that light, we will remain in its darkness. I know, cause I'm there, too. In the end, I'm not sure if life is a riddle, or not. Perhaps it is, though. >>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > Erin Erin - Life itself for humans is a riddle. It's how we face it that defines us. I think you are a very bright light, and person. I would miss you if you were to stop posting. And I would worry that something not so nice happened. I can't say that anything here on this forum will help with your issues, But I can certainly say that we will care about you, and wish the best for you. Please stay and post what is in your heart. We are listening. Bob > >>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, > >>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > > Bob Well, i truly believe that the problem is medical. I think that any good psychopharmacologist/psychiatrist such as Dr. Nemeroff would have solved DH's problem very long ago. I believe that. I know that. As for the consequences of misguided psychiatric care, well, I suppose character has a lot to do with it, and emotional tangles which a therapist could handle, once stabilization has taken place. I guess the emotional fallout from lack of biological psychiatry treatment is what most therapists might regard as "what comes from within". Some people have to be stable to have the strength to see what comes from within. I have always been aware of what was within me (except for one occasion), even during states of high stress. I guess I'm different. I appreciate having a forum to discuss this with me. I am an introvert. thanks, really. Erin >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Erin >>>>>>>>>>>> For the record: >>>>>>>>>>>> ____________ [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>>>>>>>>>>> some 3 years now. >>>>>>>>>>>> His depression prevents him from helping himself. >>>>>>>>>>> That is the most insidious aspect of it. And it really sucks. >>>>>>>>>>> It's kinda like ... there's a rope out there to climb out of the >>>>>>>>>>> pit, but >>>>>>>>>>> you can't reach it, as your hands are too slippery and you >>>>>>>>>>> can't get a grip. >>>>>>>>>> What is the most insidious aspect of what? Please clarify. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Erin >>>>>>>>> This part, where you said: >>>>>>>>> "His depression prevents him from helping himself". >>>>>>>>> If its serious and clinical, that pretty much goes with its [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>> OK - absolutely; it's a Catch-22 situation, that's why i have >>>>>>> been wondering why doctors do not encourage him to get >>>>>>> psychiatric help. >>>>>> The doctors can do all the "encouraging" they want, but until he >>>>>> opens [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>> I quit in 1987, and I had been a one-pack (or half pack) a day smoker >>>> for [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > might regard as "what comes from within". Some people have to > be stable to have the strength to see what comes from within. Stable and "open enough". That is: honest self-awareness. > I have always been aware of what was within me (except for > one occasion), even during states of high stress. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Erin Same here. And I think the forum can sometimes help us to see within. I wasn't suggesting otherwise. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 132 lines] > And I think the forum can sometimes help us to see within. I wasn't > suggesting otherwise. Assuming that stabilization is successful through meds, then what? That leaves the man-in-himself. It would be interesting to see. I see some of it, *sans* the depression. I don't think he sees what I see though. Maybe that's another can of worms. I do know that he depends on me, and for my own conscience, I would not harm anyone or not help, unless my own life was in jeapordy. One cannot let a man fall off the cliff while he still has the strength to hold him back. Erin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 131 lines] > > Erin Erin - You are such a smart sweetie. I have no idea how life could have been so tough on you. Keep posting, and a ruminating <g>, you are appreciated. Bob >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 140 lines] > > Assuming that stabilization is successful through meds, then what? That would be a good first step, no? So, one step at a time.. > That leaves the man-in-himself. It would be interesting to see. Yes. But you also probably have some expectations, though, and those may or may not be realized. > I see some of it, *sans* the depression. I don't think he sees what I > see though. Well, but do we truly ever, though? Life always comes down to our own perceptions, though, as seen through our own filters. > Maybe that's another can of worms. I do know that he > depends on me, and for my own conscience, I would not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Erin But oftentimes it seems that we are nearly powerless to effect that change for others, and perhaps even for ourselves. Because, once again, they/we have to buy into it; and if they aren't ready to see it, then what?? That part of life I find to be very depressing and frustrating. I guess the only thing we can do is be there and keep trying in our own way, though. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 154 lines] > part of life I find to be very depressing and frustrating. I guess the > only thing we can do is be there and keep trying in our own way, though. Bill - Truer words have never been spoken. Keep the faith :-) Bob >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 167 lines] > > Bob It's seems pretty difficult at times - indeed most times - Bob, but thanks for the kind thoughts. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 167 lines] > part of life I find to be very depressing and frustrating. I guess the > only thing we can do is be there and keep trying in our own way, though. I'm just doing my part. Socrates (I think) said that a man cannot know if he has lived a good life until the end. And there's a Latin ditty that may be cute here: "fiat justitita ruat caelum" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_justitia_ruat_caelum Erin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 160 lines] > > Erin Erin - Something I'd share with you. And yes, it does sometimes has to, I'd rather it be sunny for you right now. Sometimes it's easier to wish happiness on others, than to accept the present. Bob >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 181 lines] > I'm just doing my part. Socrates (I think) said that a man cannot know > if he has lived a good life until the end. Is that really true? Well, if taken "fully", I expect so. > And there's a Latin ditty that may be cute here: "fiat justitita ruat > caelum" > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_justitia_ruat_caelum > > Erin It's coming. But probably not in this millenium. (I'm referring the manmade, now irreversible, global warming - and justice will be served; we shall indeed reap what we have sowed). > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 194 lines] > manmade, now irreversible, global warming - and justice will be served; we > shall indeed reap what we have sowed). Hmm..... reminds me of Lou Reed's song "Perfect Day" -- how many of those can we expect; Erin >>>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Erin >>>>>>>>>>> For the record: >>>>>>>>>>> ____________ [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>>>>>>>>>> some 3 years now. >>>>>>>>>>> His depression prevents him from helping himself. >>>>>>>>>> That is the most insidious aspect of it. And it really sucks. >>>>>>>>>> It's kinda like ... there's a rope out there to climb out of the >>>>>>>>>> pit, but >>>>>>>>>> you can't reach it, as your hands are too slippery and you can't >>>>>>>>>> get a grip. >>>>>>>>> What is the most insidious aspect of what? Please clarify. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Erin >>>>>>>> This part, where you said: >>>>>>>> "His depression prevents him from helping himself". [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bob >>>>>> OK - absolutely; it's a Catch-22 situation, that's why i have >>>>>> been wondering why doctors do not encourage him to get >>>>>> psychiatric help. >>>>> The doctors can do all the "encouraging" they want, but until he opens >>>>> up [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > were to stop posting. And I would worry that something not so nice > happened. ?? Why would she stop posting? > I can't say that anything here on this forum will help with your issues, > But I can certainly say that we will care about you, and wish the best [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Bob Agreed. Extra line breaks added above. "Most fascinating, said Spock." I don't know why your newsreader doesn't add them Bob (to help separate the responses). >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > know why your newsreader doesn't add them Bob (to help separate the > responses). Bill - I will start paying attention to that, but to be honest, you are the first to make the point. I use Thunderbird at default settings, so I don't know why something should be configured differently. Bob >>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Bob Yes, if and when that time comes. Somehow, someday, maybe the light can be seen. >>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Yes, if and when that time comes. Somehow, someday, maybe the light can > be seen. I am listening. I am also here listening in hopes that may make a difference. But I can only listen. Bob >>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Bob And converse. And I think that can be helpful. I think isolation is the worst. >>>>>>>>> I am not making a move or coming to any conclusion, >>>>>>>>> until I know the truth -- too many variables: one I have [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > And converse. And I think that can be helpful. I think isolation is the > worst. But I am listening, and I won't leave you hanging... Bob >> I made an appointment for my husband with his doctor, as >> he has had nausea, weakness, vertigo, and headaches for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > you can't reach it, as your hands are too slippery and you can't get a > grip. I second your comments, Bill. I rather wish that it WAS that the rope was too slippery. It is more like: I know that the rope is O.K. but I don't want it. It is unlike an addiction: addicts can see the goal but are powerless to reach it. Depression is self-destructive. That facet of it makes it seem to come from the Devil himself. Somebody said: "If there was no God, it would be necessary to invent Him." Depression is so cleverly designed to destroy us, that it seems to be the creation of an evil intelligence. It is rather as if there has to be a Devil, or depression could not exist. And I write this in the knowledge that in many ways, I have turned the corner. Doug L.  SignatureIf a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. - G.K. Chesterton. > >> I made an appointment for my husband with his doctor, as > >> he has had nausea, weakness, vertigo, and headaches for [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly. > - G.K. Chesterton. Well said -- i know. But what is very strange for the past few years is that the same dose of ADs has left him more depressed than ever in his life. So, I can't figure it out: - is it another med added some yrs. ago that interacts to bring on depression? very possible; - is it a head injury -- they only checked the spine, not the brain; - is it metabolic? - is it that the new meds are generic and weaker? - is he lying? - is it the withdrawal and reinstatement? See, something has changed, and he does feel ill every day; very depressed-- this is stressful for me but I am not supposed to interfere; needs a doctor and a gastroentorolgist maybe. Erin |
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