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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / July 2009Interesting book on narcissism and effects on relationships
Popular psychology: http://samvak.tripod.com/archive20.html > Popular psychology: > > http://samvak.tripod.com/archive20.html Words like 'narcissism' remind me of the theme song of Weeds. Seems to me that labels are only useful up to a point. And motives for abuse of such labels may be hidden even to the labeler themselves. I imagine we all have one/some/several/many/lots of narcissistic tendencies that do and don't manifest at different times. If we look carefully we might begin to see a pattern emerge. I think of it as 'separation'. When we feel separate from anyone or manyone else, we tend to do things that might be labeled narcissistic and when we are at one with everything around us we seem to flow happily along with the rest of the world. The question for me is 'why don't I just try to get along with others more often?' - Michaela > > Popular psychology: > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > - Michaela Uhm, Michaela.... how do you know I don't get along with others? I *do*. And I am a very kind and compassionate person by their feedback. However, I agree with you that Robert Hare's (e.g.) and the above classic are pop psychology. Personality psychology is more sociological in observation; maybe close to anthropology though more specific. Still, in some cases this book do describe habits of thinking that may have orginated for a number of reasons -- developmental, upbringing, culture, or just ill will. I don't think anybody is born a narcissist. Erin > > > Popular psychology: > > > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Uhm, Michaela.... how do you know I don't get along with others? Read what she wrote. Michaela wrote "The question for Michaela is..." She didn't make any statement about the question for _you_. > I *do*. And I am a very kind and compassionate person by their > feedback. However, I agree with you that Robert Hare's (e.g.) and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > culture, or just ill will. I don't think anybody is born a > narcissist. Hmm. Maybe I think the opposite. Everyone is born a narcissist, but most people are socialized into tempering their narcissism. > > > > Popular psychology: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Read what she wrote. Michaela wrote "The question for Michaela is..." She > didn't make any statement about the question for _you_. Close enough. I wasn't making any judgements. That said, how well does mmmousemaid get along with her husband? > > I *do*. And I am a very kind and compassionate person by their > > feedback. However, I agree with you that Robert Hare's (e.g.) and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Hmm. Maybe I think the opposite. Everyone is born a narcissist, but > most people are socialized into tempering their narcissism. Hmmm. I disagree. To me sometimes it's nature and sometimes it's nurture and one second nature wins over nurture and the next it's the other way round. What determines which happens when? I guess it has something to do with The Dao. O, and little incidentals like time and space... for instance, how much of a hurry am I in and how much of my time have other people wasted/saved helps to determine my mood and how far away am I from where I wanted to be? What a coincidence: that (space and time) about sums up the material world, doesn't it? - Michaela >>>>> Popular psychology: >> [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > - Michaela Except perhaps, as one well-reknown philosopher once pointed out, the basic absurdity of life. On Jul 3, 5:37 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>>>> Popular psychology: > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > Except perhaps, as one well-reknown philosopher once pointed out, the basic > absurdity of life. Hmmmm, guys. Today, I put up my hammock (it strings between the clothesline and the crabapple tree), and rocked in it and read some parts of Eckhart Tolle's *The Power of Now*--which you all have mentioned here before. Tolle makes a compelling case for the narcissism that you speak of above, but also recognizes that we can in fact go beyond it, tho few of us try or do. Given my where-I'm-at-edness" I'll just quote this brief part, from page 128: "If you stop investing it with "selfness," the mind loses its compulsive quality, which basically is the compulsion to judge, and so to resist what *is*, which creates conflict, drama, and new pain. In fact, the moment that judgment stops through accpetance of what *is*, you are free of the mind. You have made room for love, for joy, for peace." It's a cool book--I read it before on the recommendation of someone here--maybe Doug A?--and enjoyed re-reading it and listening to the silence between the cardinal song, the car sounds, the firebombs, etc........ Fill > On Jul 3, 5:37 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > you are free of the mind. You have made room for love, for joy, for > peace." And that path to salvation is as difficult to walk ... as a razor's edge. (by SM, with a few liberties taken, once again) On Jul 3, 9:56 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > On Jul 3, 5:37 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > And that path to salvation is as difficult to walk ... as a razor's edge. > (by SM, with a few liberties taken, once again) Yup, and the book tells you you'll fall of the edge repeatedly, but you can always keep trying to get back on and stay back on. > On Jul 3, 9:56 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > Yup, and the book tells you you'll fall of the edge repeatedly, but > you can always keep trying to get back on and stay back on. But did Somerset Maugham ever find that peace and salvation? And did Emily Dickinson or the Bronte sisters find it? On Jul 4, 5:35 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > On Jul 3, 9:56 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] > But did Somerset Maugham ever find that peace and salvation? And did > Emily Dickinson or the Bronte sisters find it? Don't know about Maugham, guess would be no. But yes, I think Emily and Emily and Charlotte and Anne *did* at times find it. Krishna knows that they fell off repeatedly, but they did have those moments of peace and salvation. (There's a great new book out on ED's relationships with...oh shmuck, I forgot his name...too lazy to go downstairs and find the book). Anyhow, it's in there poems and books, thru their characters, tho as in eternal? Not falling off? Ever? No. > On Jul 4, 5:35 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 109 lines] > Don't know about Maugham, guess would be no. But yes, I think Emily > and Emily and Charlotte and Anne *did* at times find it. "....at times"??? (Kinda qualifying it just a wee bit here, n'est pas??? :-) > Krishna knows > that they fell off repeatedly, but they did have those moments of > peace and salvation. (There's a great new book out on ED's > relationships with...oh shmuck, I forgot his name...too lazy to go > downstairs and find the book). I thought she was pretty isolated and lonely, staying up in her room. Maybe I'm misremembering or thinking of someone else. > Anyhow, it's in there poems and books, > thru their characters, tho as in eternal? Not falling off? Ever? No. And maybe Joseph Conrad? or Charles Dickens? As for those who actually "fell off" the cliff of life, I'd have to look that up. On Jul 4, 10:22 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > On Jul 4, 5:35 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 128 lines] > As for those who actually "fell off" the cliff of life, I'd have to look > that up. IF you read ED's poems (and I urge everyone to do so), you will be made breathless by her moments of grace and presence, and you will experience them with her. Wild Nights comes to mind first, but may not be the best example. Even Because I Could Not Stop for Death... The Bronte sisters struggles are more prolonged, but too, you see that they could also find peace and salvation. I'm thinking of Villette, when Lucy comes out of her collapse or, more significantly, the final chapter; of Tenant of Wildfell Hall, where Helen refuses the advances of what'shisname Hargrave, knowing of something higher and better, and even Wuthering Heights where Catherine says to Nellie, I am Heathcliff, recognizing the one-ness of self and other. Conrad, Heart of Darkness, Marlowe recognizes the connection with Kurtz; Billy Budd (in Billy Budd) sees to higher planes regularly. Dickens, Great Expectations, Pip's recognition of father-self at a high plane of peace and salvation... OK, English lesson over. :) > On Jul 4, 10:22 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 166 lines] > > :) I liked that English (or rather, literature) lesson. So thanks for that. :-) Although I still don't see them quite as upbeat as you seem to do (I mean your interpretations of their viewpoints on life, even with some of those "tokens" thrown in at the end of their novels, as though that represented their true optimism in humanity). There is too much darkness there to so blatantly dismiss and wrap up conveniently at the end with a token, methinks. But it's also been awhile since I've read them too, but I'd probably still see it the same way now. On Jul 5, 6:02 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > On Jul 4, 10:22 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 177 lines] > methinks. But it's also been awhile since I've read them too, but I'd > probably still see it the same way now. Oh, I'm not saying they're upbeat at all (the B sisters)--just that there are highly invested characters who seem to find that spot of "peace" (or whatever term we started with) on and off again, and strive for it, even if some fail. (Helen and Lucy [arguably] do not ultimatley faily; Catherine does). As for Emily D...I think she lived in that place a lot. By the way, the title of the book I was referencing earlier is *'White Heat*: a quote from page 168 (aboutED): "...is like Dickinson herself, a guest come for a moment to stay but a moment, yer grace courteous yet unaccountably exactly, her life sequestered and yet not soundless-- never that--but provacative and beautiful." > On Jul 5, 6:02 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 192 lines] > unaccountably exactly, her life sequestered and yet not soundless-- > never that--but provacative and beautiful." One of the authors I have not read - next on my library trip - hope she's worth it. Erin > > On Jul 5, 6:02 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 197 lines] > > Erin Worth it? She's beyond words worth it. Very complex...check out a bio or two, too, if you want to "feel" beyond the superficial. (I can get my intro to lit students to understand the superficial pretty easily, but the complexity elides most of them...just as the complexity of anything beyond memorizing the Chem Table of Elements was beyond my nonscientific brain...) > > > As for Emily D...I think she lived in that place a lot. By the way, > > > the title of the book I was referencing earlier is *'White Heat*: a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > One of the authors I have not read - next on my library trip - hope > > she's worth it. Were you a Simon and Garfunkel fan? One of their songs goes - You read your Emily Dickenson, and I my Robert Frost. We mark our place with bookmarkers that measure what we've lost ... It's a corny song but such were Simon and Garfunkel in their day. > Worth it? She's beyond words worth it. Very complex...check out a bio > or two, too, if you want to "feel" beyond the superficial. (I can get > my intro to lit students to understand the superficial pretty easily, > but the complexity elides most of them...just as the complexity of > anything beyond memorizing the Chem Table of Elements was beyond my > nonscientific brain...) Describing the periodic table of the elements in terms of memorization in the same discussion as poetry? The table IS poetry, and dance, and orchestra. It's why it's such genius. It's a table of stuff that's organized into clean and clear patterns of several sorts that overlap better than the strings and brass in a chamber orchestra playing Eine Kleine Nacht Musick. A parade is fire engines, brass bands, bagpipe bands, elephants, police cars, etc. Nice but not nearly as organized as a Cirque de Soeil circus performance. The periodic table, its far better organized than Cirque de Soeil and far more poetic and muscial. Consider - From one side that's burst of flame from trumpets ranging from trebble to bass with the trumpets throwing ash. To the other side that's cold isolated wind of piccolos through tubas. In between are strings and wind and wood and drums. Light at the top, heavy at the bottom. Whoosh on the sides, ringing in the middle. The table's laid out just like an ymphonic orchestra. Actually I tend to think that whoever laid out the symphonic in its current set of wings used the table as its model. Math to music. Music to poetry. Poetry to prose. Prose to novel. It's a continuous progression and the table encompasses the math to poetry parts of the spectrum. Applying the table to marriage - Like a good marriage as it gets deeper it gets wider and covers more elements. As it gets deeper it gets more stable and less windy and explosive. As it gets deeper it goes from burning to rusting to easily polished to not needing polishing to glow in the dark. Fine wines have nothing on either a good marriage or the poetry of the periodic table of the elements. I can't do fine wine at home, but I can do my best at good marriage. Okay, "There's never time to do it right the first time, but there's always time to do it over again" aka both my wife and I are on our second marriages. We were a lot more picky this time and it shows. I can't do fine wine at home, but I can do pretty good beer, too. Right now there's a nut brown ale in the cask that I'll bottle in a week or two. Should be like Samuel Smith's nut brown. No Orval or Chimay in the fridge today. There is Guiness. A week ago there were two bottles of Guiness in the fridge. Today there's only one. I'll get around to putting more in the fridge at some point but when that other Michael Jackson died I went out and got one of the books on beer by the real one who died a couple of years ago. It lists a couple of Belgian Trappists I have not yet tried. Life is good - I am hunting for another untried Trappist while some ale brews. > > > > As for Emily D...I think she lived in that place a lot. By the way, > > > > the title of the book I was referencing earlier is *'White Heat*: a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Frost. We mark our place with bookmarkers that measure > what we've lost ... I am--in fact, last night I listened to Simon's Hearts and Bones, my favorite--and I do know that song, and I'd say both of 'em catch many moments of that peace or whatever this thread was about earlier... > It's a corny song but such were Simon and Garfunkel in their > day. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > better than the strings and brass in a chamber orchestra > playing Eine Kleine Nacht Musick. LOL--you make my point for me. Many of my students cannot see the poetry dance orchestra in ED, tho they could quote a stanza, maybe, and give you the literal meaning. Which I used to be able to do with the perioids table (intentional fragment for Beams). > A parade is fire engines, brass bands, bagpipe bands, > elephants, police cars, etc. Nice but not nearly as [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > to novel. It's a continuous progression and the table > encompasses the math to poetry parts of the spectrum. I think for the truly gifted--and you may be one of them, most of your posts could be interpreted to suggest that--this is true. But I get lost in the math and science. I am not among the truly gifted. I have one gift, literature, and with out a doubt a more intelligent version of myself would be better with even that one gift. > Applying the table to marriage - Like a good marriage as it > gets deeper it gets wider and covers more elements. As it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to do it over again" aka both my wife and I are on our second > marriages. We were a lot more picky this time and it shows. A bad marriage is like a bad poem. No, for me, it's like math and science! Ungraspable and unable to live surrounded by it... > I can't do fine wine at home, but I can do pretty good beer, > too. Right now there's a nut brown ale in the cask that I'll [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > of Belgian Trappists I have not yet tried. Life is good - I am > hunting for another untried Trappist while some ale brews. Damn you! :) Now you have me wanting a Chimay. Wow, I bet that would go great with Vicodin. CLUNK. But let me know about the new trappists you find. > > > On Jul 5, 6:02 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 204 lines] > anything beyond memorizing the Chem Table of Elements was beyond my > nonscientific brain...) Oh, it's *poetry*...... it better be good. :-) I'll take a book out and let you know what I think; from her bio on Wikipedia, she sounds kind of nutty, but hey nutty can be deep. Erin > > > > On Jul 5, 6:02 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 201 lines] > > read more » Wikipedia is one source I urge my students to avoid if they want to "get deep." It can be downright incorrect at times. (Yes, of course I use it, but judiciously and never for important data.) I think you'll like her, Erin, and I'm glad you're checking her out. Fill > > On Jul 3, 9:56 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] > But did Somerset Maugham ever find that peace and salvation? And did > Emily Dickinson or the Bronte sisters find it? No, he did not. And I would not doubt it if his publisher trashed the theme of "Of Human Bondage" in the ending. He chums up with a quaint, country family-- sacharrine in their bucolic contentment and marries a healthy strapping, young dairy maid and everyone lives happily ever after? Pleeeze explain to me how this came about. Erin > On Jul 3, 5:37 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > > Fill Uhm, yeah but a little challenging on human nature, especially if you try to become a Buddhist in middle age, after a carreer, in say corporate crime. I suppose some born-again Christians have gone through such transformations. Erin > > > Popular psychology: > > > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > have orginated for a number of reasons -- developmental, upbringing, > culture, or just ill will. I don't think anybody is born a Sorry Michaela.... I misread the pronoun "I" for "you" - Freudian slip? Erin > narcissist. > > Erin Click on these links for detailed topic guides - everything you ever wanted to know about narcissists and psychopaths: ============================================ Toxic Relationships with Malignant Narcissists and Psychopaths ============================================ How to Recognize a Narcissist Before It is Too Late? http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4976 Narcissists and Personality disordered Mates, Spouses, and Partners http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5013 Narcissists, psychopaths, sex, and marital fidelity http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4920 Narcissistic and Psychopathic Parents and Their Children http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4727 Projection and Projective Identification - Abuser in Denial http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5002 Approach-Avoidance Repetition Complex and Fear of Intimacy http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5000 The Narcissist or Psychopath Hates your Independence and Personal Autonomy http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4959 I miss him so much - I want him back! http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4934 Guilt? What guilt? http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4931 How Victims are Pathologized and re-abused by the System http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5068 ============================ The Narcissist and Psychopath in Society ============================ The Narcissist and Psychopath as Criminals http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5003 The Narcissist is Above the Law http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4983 The Narcissist as Liar and Con-man http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4951 ============================================ Pathological Narcissism, Narcissistic Personality disorder and Psychopathy ============================================ Does the Narcissist Have a Multiple Personality (Dissociative Identity Disorder)? http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4950 Narcissists as Drama Queens http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4948 The Narcissist as Know-it-all http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4945 The Narcissist as VAMPIRE or MACHINE http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4944 Narcissists and Psychopaths Devalue Their Psychotherapists http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4939 Violent, Vindictive, Sadistic, and Psychopathic Narcissists http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4938 Portrait of the Narcissist as a Young Man http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5048 Grandiosity, Fantasies, and Narcissism http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4923 Narcissists and Emotions http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5248 Narcissists and Mood Disorders http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5067 |
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