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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / July 2009Loosen the Apron Strings - Alcohol
Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their teenagers. We (my wife and I) drink socially, but not much at all. Maybe once a month or so, if people are over. We have allowed our 16 year old to have a couple of drinks at special occasions (New Years Eve, etc.). Our thoughts are that she will probably drink at some point and we would just as well she experience it first with our supervision. Myself personally and my wife, both starting drinking alcohol at age 16. We drank a lot more when we were younger. My wife stays away from it, because her father drank way too much. Our first experience was when our oldest was in Grade 10 and barely 16. One of her hockey teammates (her coaches daughter) was turning 17 and her parents were having a party for her. The party was in their house and the parents would be chaperoning. The parents made sure we were aware that there would be alcohol at the party. In our jurisdiction it is illegal to drink until age 18. But apparently this happens quite a bit. Our first instinct was to say she couldn't go. Then that she could go, but wasn't allowed to drink. We ended up buying her two 'coolers' and let her go to the party. We dropped her off and picked her up. I guess we have set the precedent that our kids can drink once they are in Grade 10. Thankfully, this daughter isn't all that social and hasn't asked to do anything like this since. We recently had a fight with our second daughter who is 14 and in Grade 9. They have a small graduation ceremony (from Junior High) and our daughter wanted to be able to go to a party where drinking would be happening. Supposedly, everyone was going to be there. We held our ground and told her it wasn't allowed until she was in Grade 10 and even then only when supervised. This daughter is very social and I have no doubt she will be asking to go to parties all the time in grade ten (a couple of months away). What to do????? > Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with > their teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > this happens > quite a bit. A philosophy with which I strongly disagee. > Our first instinct was to say she couldn't go. Then that she > could go, but wasn't allowed to drink. We ended up buying her [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > away). > What to do????? This is another of those situations where there is no universal right or wrong decision. However, I think that there are valid and invalid reasons for the decision. IMO, I completely reject the notion that 'kids will do it anyway, so we may as well facilitate it in order to minimize the potential damage'. First of all, I reject the notion that kids will do it anyway. Secondly, I reject the notion that if they do, they should be spared the consequences. To subscribe to this philosophy is to agree to be held hostage by the kids, and it turns the whole job of being a parent on its head. If you decide that your kid should be able to drink in certain circumstances, either because of age, or occasion, or surroundings, or whatever else, then that is your decision. But IMO, that decision should be on the basis of whether you think that child can handle it appropriately in that circumstance, and whether or not that child can understand why the restriction might be in effect some times, and lifted at other times. And part of that understanding should be based upon whether the child understands that these decisions might be made subjectively on a case by case basis, and that there is no universal standard, or no exact algorithm by which these decisions will be made. If the kid is sophisticated enough to understand those things, and is sophisticated enough to understand that it is the parent's job to make those decisions in the end, and is sophisticated enough to understand why giving permision to do something that is contrary to law in this case does not mean a free pass to break any other laws, then I say that the kid is probably sophisticated enough to handle drinking on those certain occasions. >> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with >> their teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > then I say that the kid is probably sophisticated enough to handle > drinking on those certain occasions. I think I agree with everything you say. And I believe my kids are sophisticated enough to understand all of this. But that doesn't stop them from complaining sometimes when we are doing our job as best we can. They understand we need to set limits, but that doesn't mean that they agree with the limits. >>> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with >>> their teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > our job as best we can. They understand we need to set limits, > but that doesn't mean that they agree with the limits. Then that means that they are doing *their* job. Sounds like you have pretty mature, but very normal kids. :-) I would've been very worried if my kids had *not* questioned and pushed the boundaries. >>> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with >>> their teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > can. They understand we need to set limits, but that doesn't mean that > they agree with the limits. There shouldn't be any drinking of alcohol at 13 in the first place, so that's really a non-issue. Is this where we are now today? >>>> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with >>>> their teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > There shouldn't be any drinking of alcohol at 13 in the first place, so > that's really a non-issue. Is this where we are now today? 13? >>>> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with >>>> their teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > There shouldn't be any drinking of alcohol at 13 in the first place, so > that's really a non-issue. Is this where we are now today? Actually, I see what you mean. Grade 9 parties some of the kids are 13. > Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their > teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > What to do????? I think you did exactly the right thing and you've described our rules about alcohol consumption for teens. Here it isn't illegal for under-18s to drink alcohol at private homes and we have allowed kids to bring in their coolers and beer cans from Year 10 or 16 years old. We also have the "two cooler" rule. That's plenty to give them a mild buzz and to help learn their limits in a controlled environment with out anyone getting drunk. I am very torn about this, though. Current research tells us that alcohol should be avoided while the brain is still developing and that's supposed be until the age of 25. But how do we manage that knowledge with the social reality of legally unfettered drinking at 18 and the feeling that it is irresponsible of us as parents not to teach out children who to drink moderately and responsibly? I suspect that when our 8 year old is 16 the laws may have been tightened to stop non-related under-18s drinking in private homes and we'll abide by that happily enough. > Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their > teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > What to do????? I'm surprised. I know people (including myself and my wife) who will occasionally let our teenagers have a very small glass of wine with us at dinner. I would never do this for someone _else's_ teenager. So to me sponsoring a party fo 16 year olds where it is _generally_ expected that these kids will be drinking sounds very strange. The idea that there is a _junior_ high graduation party where drinking is being tolerated by adults seems simply bizarre to me. On Jun 30, 7:50 pm, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their > > teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > The idea that there is a _junior_ high graduation party where drinking > is being tolerated by adults seems simply bizarre to me. I read this thread yesterday and had so much to say that I decided not to say anything. I still feel overwhelmed by it all. I can't express to you the serious problems with alcohol use and abuse on our campus-- I know this is older than the age you all are talking about, but the one must relate to the other. The number of young women crying in my office after date rape/unprotected sex (pregnancies, STDs), gang- banged...and about one young man drowns in our river every year, drunk. It is too much, and my mouth hurts very much so I won't say anymore today (yup, hurts all the way down to my fingertips). I'm scared for *all* these young people. It is very different from my own teenage-early college years, tho I did overindulge more than once. Fill > On Jun 30, 7:50 pm, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > It is very different from my own teenage-early college years, tho I > did overindulge more than once. Maybe it is where I live, but it has been like this for a long time. I actually think the teenagers now are more responsible than when I was there some 30 years ago. We used to just drive around and drink. Get someone of age to buy the booze and then drive around the country drinking and throwing bottles at signs. The teens now, seem to be more responsible. They have designated drivers (something we never had). When I went to college, drinking was out of control. Every Thursday night and every weekend. People getting major intoxicated. That was almost 30 years ago. My brother who is 10 years older went through the same. My father talked about parties where they would buy 24 beer (cause it was so cheap), put it on a sleigh and walk six miles to a party in the next town, drinking all the way there. That was some 60 years ago. I think the only real change now is the problem with 'cell phones'. When we were growing up, you could organize a party, have your 10 or 20 friends there and everyone knew everyone and things were under control. Now with cell phones, a couple of hundred people can become aware of the party in an instant. All of a sudden you can have a hundred strangers show up for the party. This is where damage to property and large fights occur. This is also why I would never host a 'drinking' party for any of our children, even when they are of age. I think the average kids now are more responsible than they were when I was growing up. I know my own children and their close friends are. But I think the 'bad' kids now are much worse than when I was growing up. The 'bad' kids when I was growing up, would steal some gas, or get in fights. Now they are stabbing and killing each other. >> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their >> teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > The idea that there is a _junior_ high graduation party where drinking > is being tolerated by adults seems simply bizarre to me. I agree with you. I can't believe adults take on this risk. I have never heard of anyone getting charged, but it is against the law. Something about 'contributing to a minor'. Here is a story about what can and does happen .... A couple of weeks ago, my daughters 'lacrosse' team was having a party. Supposedly it was just for the team. But some of the girls brought boy friends or friends. The party of 18 turned into more like 40. These girls are in grades 9 and 10. Some parents hosted the party and were allowing drinking. Thankfully, we were out of town and my daughter wasn't there. Apparently, a bunch of people showed up at the house. The parents turned them away. Some of the teenagers got angry and hostile (swearing and being rude). Left for a while, then returned and refused to leave. One of them jumped the father who was trying to get them to leave. The mother was out trying to help and was yelling at the teens. The police were called to help get the party under control. While the fighting was going on, some of the people inside decided to punch holes in walls and destroy some things. They think they were maybe friends of the people who were being turned away. Nobody will talk in regards to who was doing the damage. Last we heard, some of the teenagers charged the mother for 'death threats'. The parents were charging some of the teens with assault. So on one side, you want your kids to have some adult supervision while they are partaking. The other side says they should not partake at all. My kids are telling me that only the 'nerds' don't go to parties (similar to when I was growing up). My kids are good kids and I want them to be social and to be accepted. It is a real tough decision for parents!!! > >> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their > >> teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > maybe friends of the people who were being turned away. Nobody will > talk in regards to who was doing the damage. Yikes. I don't think it is like that where I live. At least I've never heard a story like this. > Last we heard, some of the teenagers charged the mother for 'death > threats'. Sounds like an idel threat from the teens. Honestly, I don't think death threats are illegal. > The parents were charging some of the teens with assault. > So on one side, you want your kids to have some adult supervision > while they are partaking. The other side says they should not partake > at all. My kids are telling me that only the 'nerds' don't go to > parties (similar to when I was growing up). My kids are good kids and > I want them to be social and to be accepted. Yes. One has to be careful about what your kids tell you about other kids. According to my daughter (for example) "all teenagers" stay out until 4 in the morning all summer long. Yeah, right. > It is a real tough decision for parents!!! >>>> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their >>>> teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > Yikes. I don't think it is like that where I live. At least I've > never heard a story like this. It happens here far too often. A couple of years ago, a 17 year old was killed by people trying to get into a party. He was one of the only sober people at the party as he was a designated driver. This was in a middle to upper class neighborhood. >> Last we heard, some of the teenagers charged the mother for 'death >> threats'. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Yeah, right. I know what you are saying. The morning after the Junior High Graduation party, our daughter told us that she was the only one who 'wasn't hung over', because we wouldn't let her go. Then we asked about a couple of kids we knew who also weren't allowed. Then it was 'everyone except me and them'. Yeah right. But I also remember what it was like to be a teenager. There were those who didn't do much socially (partying or sports). Then there were those who were doing stealing and failing in school, etc.. Then there were those who partied and played sports and were generally part of the more popular crowd. I would guess that the first group was probably 25% of the kids, the 2nd group was maybe 5% (or less) and the last group was the majority of the kids. I definitely want my kids in the last group, where they learn to socialize, play some sports and generally learn how to be part of society. >> It is a real tough decision for parents!!! >>>>> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their >>>>> teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 109 lines] > they learn to socialize, play some sports and generally learn how to be > part of society. If I think back, the cheerleader girls, the most popular of the popular were AT the drinking parties. but they did not drink a lot. One cooler could be nursed the whole night. >>> It is a real tough decision for parents!!! >>> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their >>> teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > threats'. The parents were charging some of the teens with assault. > <snip> I think you should move to a better neighborhood (if you could), if that kind of thing is going on. THAT is pretty damn bad. >>>> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their >>>> teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > I think you should move to a better neighborhood (if you could), if that > kind of thing is going on. THAT is pretty damn bad. The neighborhood doesn't matter. We live in a pretty affluent neighborhood in a community of about 75,000 people. It is adjacent to a city of 800,000 people. If someone has a party, within minutes, hundreds of teenagers can here about it after a couple of text messages. Then who knows who will show up. >>> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their >>> teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > So on one side, you want your kids to have some adult supervision while > they are partaking. That should be done at home. At Chrustmas dinner. Not at a teen party. In my opinion. and I sure don't want THOSE parents supervising my kids! > The other side says they should not partake at all. My kids are telling me > that only the 'nerds' don't go to parties (similar to when I was growing > up). My kids are good kids and I want them to be social and to be > accepted. > > It is a real tough decision for parents!!! >> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their >> teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > So to me sponsoring a party fo 16 year olds where it is _generally_ > expected that these kids will be drinking sounds very strange. I think it is completely nuts. But it was happening even back when I was a kid. All that happened was that whatever sanity we had around alcohol was completely abandoned in favor of relying on the grown ups to keep us from dying. > The idea that there is a _junior_ high graduation party where drinking > is being tolerated by adults seems simply bizarre to me. Me too. >>> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their >>> teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > Me too. "Bizarre" is an understatement. But it's just a sign of the times. It's just yet another example of absentee parenting - done by "parents" who themselves are irresponsible. >>>> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their >>>> teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > "Bizarre" is an understatement. But it's just a sign of the times. Except it really isn't since it was prevalent when I was a teenaer as well. > It's just yet another example of absentee parenting - done by "parents" > who themselves are irresponsible. How are they being absent? I think the idea is meritless. But the one thing you can't accuse the parents of being, in thiss case, is absent. >>>>> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their >>>>> teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > Except it really isn't since it was prevalent when I was a teenager as > well. It's much more common today. And the "drinking age" has fallen. Heck, even some elementary school age children are now into alcohol, or even alcoholics themselves! What does that tell you??? And THAT increasing prevalence HAS been a recent societal change. (ditto for the number of kids born to unwed and/or teenage moms). Viva La Progresso... >> It's just yet another example of absentee parenting - done by "parents" >> who themselves are irresponsible. > > How are they being absent? I think the idea is meritless. But the one > thing > you can't accuse the parents of being, in thiss case, is absent. "Absentee parenting" means "there is no one home", in the broader sense - NOT literally. IOW, they are a bit "out to lunch" in the parenting dept. Like giving in to their child's demands because it's just "too much work" not to, or, they are just too clueless to even understand the ramifications - OR both of the above. >>>>>> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their >>>>>> teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > > It's much more common today. On what do you base that assertion? > And the "drinking age" has fallen. When did it fall and from what to what? Anywhere I look it has risen to 21. Here in VT when I was a kid, the age was 18. Now it is 21. (I think the drinking age is dumb too.) > Heck, even some elementary school age children are now into alcohol, or > even alcoholics themselves! What does that tell you??? Nothing really. It does not tell me anything abut how this is worse than it used to be. > And THAT increasing prevalence HAS been a recent societal change. (ditto > for the number of kids born to unwed and/or teenage moms). Viva La > Progresso... All of what I have heard is that teen pregnancy is DOWN. Except in red staes, which just cracks me up. >>> It's just yet another example of absentee parenting - done by "parents" >>> who themselves are irresponsible. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > "Absentee parenting" means "there is no one home", in the broader sense - > NOT literally. I think you can say these parents have the wrong idea. But it is their caring that has them thinking they are helping their children. > IOW, they are a bit "out to lunch" in the parenting dept. Like giving in > to their child's demands because it's just "too much work" not to, or, > they are just too clueless to even understand the ramifications - OR both > of the above. >>>>>>> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their >>>>>>> teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > > (I think the drinking age is dumb too.) I wasn't talking about the legal drinking age. I was talking about the age at which some children are beginning to drink alcohol *these days*. Elementary age school age children drinking alcohol (or even becoming alcoholics) was pretty much unheard of several decades ago. >> Heck, even some elementary school age children are now into alcohol, or >> even alcoholics themselves! What does that tell you??? > > Nothing really. It does not tell me anything abut how this is worse than > it > used to be. Well, but you weren't around back then, and I was. (And please don't just say it wasn't "reported" back then, but it is now, and that's the only, or even the main, difference). >> And THAT increasing prevalence HAS been a recent societal change. (ditto >> for the number of kids born to unwed and/or teenage moms). Viva La >> Progresso... > > All of what I have heard is that teen pregnancy is DOWN. Except in red > states, which just cracks me up. I'm not comparing to 10 years ago. I'm comparing it to 6 decades ago. >>>> It's just yet another example of absentee parenting - done by "parents" >>>> who themselves are irresponsible. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I think you can say these parents have the wrong idea. But it is their > caring that has them thinking they are helping their children. You call that "caring"?? That's not caring, that's avoiding responsibility. It's not just "they have the wrong idea". >> IOW, they are a bit "out to lunch" in the parenting dept. Like giving in >> to their child's demands because it's just "too much work" not to, or, >> they are just too clueless to even understand the ramifications - OR both >> of the above. (snip) > I wasn't talking about the legal drinking age. I was talking about the age > at which some children are beginning to drink alcohol *these days*. > Elementary age school age children drinking alcohol (or even becoming > alcoholics) was pretty much unheard of several decades ago. Elementary school aged children becoming alcoholics is pretty much unheard of now too. And whether you ever heard of elementary school aged children drinking alcohol or not, several decades ago when I was 12 and 13, I had friends who were experimenting with alcohol. 13 (and that was several decades ago). > (snip) > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > friends who were experimenting with alcohol. > 13 (and that was several decades ago). I think it is fair to say that alcohol among middle schoolers (at least) is comparitively higher then it used to be! Vickie > > (snip) > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I think it is fair to say that alcohol among middle schoolers (at > least) is comparitively higher then it used to be! Fair? I don't know about fair. My question is: would it be _true_ to say that? I don't know enough to answer that question, and no one else has offered anything that addresses that question. >> > (snip) >> > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > to answer that question, and no one else has offered anything that > addresses that question. In a word: girls. Girls are very clique oriented and into acceptance of their peers. Before it was the "bad girls", a small minority who partied and drank. It is not a "bad girl" quality anymore. So when Suzy Somebody who is President Student Council and voted most friendliest is drinking at sleepovers, the other girls follow suit. Girls are also very into impressing guys. Perhaps before being sloshed was not a quality boys looked for in girls. (Sort of thinking along the lines of "Splender in the Grass" here.) But now if they look more "grown up" with a drink in their hand to be most popular among the boys, they'll do it. Also I think it may not be just more kids drinking now-a-days, but how much they consume. They are not just sneaking out a bottle of beer, haha heehee, but sitting round playing quarters with the bottles of the hard stuff. Kids also, as Bill points out, have more time alone, which can cause problems. And with that, more money to spend on getting what they want. I'm not sure what reasons could be given to conclude that alcohol among the underage is lower than it used to be. Vickie > >> > (snip) > >> > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Before it was the "bad girls", a small minority who partied and drank. > It is not a "bad girl" quality anymore. I understand that you are saying this. And I understand that you believe it to be true. But I really don't know that it is true. Usually when we say "things are different" what we really mean is "the behavior we hear about now isn't how we behaved back then." But that can mean lots of different things. It can mean that "we" (whoever we are) were unusual back then, and would be unusual now. It can mean that the behavior we hear about now is unusual now (only we don't hear that part) and it would have been unusual then. Or it could even mean that things have actually changed. But for that I'd like to know who has measured that change and how. > So when Suzy Somebody who is President Student Council and voted most > friendliest is drinking at sleepovers, the other girls follow suit. Perhaps, but this doesn't seem like a change. (Do middle schools really _have_ Student Council Presidents?) > Girls are also very into impressing guys. Yes, quite likely. But also not seeming like a change. > Perhaps before being > sloshed was not a quality boys looked for in girls. Lots of perhapses. But as far as the answer to the question "Are there more middle schoolers drinking now than, say, 30 years ago," perhapses don't really do it for me. > (Sort of thinking along the lines of "Splender in the Grass" here.) > But now if they look more "grown up" with a drink in their hand to be [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I'm not sure what reasons could be given to conclude that alcohol > among the underage is lower than it used to be. Did anyone suggest it is lower than it used to be? I don't think so. Bill, and now you, have suggested it is higher than it used to be, but no one is providing evidence for a change in any direction. On Jul 10, 1:37 pm, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > (snip) > [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > Bill, and now you, have suggested it is higher than it used to be, but > no one is providing evidence for a change in any direction. I did a quick search on Jstor, and both psychological and sociological articles suggest there has been a change: in the lower age when kids start drinking, in the overall % of under-18 who do drink, and in the prevalance of binge drinking. I can't link you to the articles as they're thru the U-server--there may be another in, but I don't know it. (snip) > I did a quick search on Jstor, and both psychological and sociological > articles suggest there has been a change: in the lower age when kids > start drinking, in the overall % of under-18 who do drink, and in the > prevalance of binge drinking. I can't link you to the articles as > they're thru the U-server--there may be another in, but I don't know > it. Cool. Tell me the articles - I can find them from where I am. I certainly have seen reports on increased prevalance of binge drinking, though these have always been journalistic and unencumbered by evidence. I've also seen suggestions that, as Vickie writes, the average age at which girls start drinking has gone down. On the narrower question of "is there more drinking at middle school age" I haven't seen any research. On Jul 10, 4:03 pm, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > (snip) > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > On the narrower question of "is there more drinking at middle school > age" I haven't seen any research. Just go to JStor and type in "alcohol use" and children and they'll pop up--I didn't write down any titles, etc. There were some interesting studies on parents' positions about alcohol in relation to under-age drinking, too, which more closely addresses the earlier parts of this thread. >>> > (snip) >>> > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Before it was the "bad girls", a small minority who partied and drank. > It is not a "bad girl" quality anymore. When is it anymore and when is back then? It sure wasn't a bad girl thing when I was a kid. > So when Suzy Somebody who is President Student Council and voted most > friendliest is drinking at sleepovers, the other girls follow suit. > Girls are also very into impressing guys. Perhaps before being sloshed > was not a quality boys looked for in girls. I suppose int he absence of fact, speculation can suffice to make judgement on supposed truth and reality. >>>> (snip) >>>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Girls are very clique oriented and into acceptance of their peers. > Before it was the "bad girls", a small minority who partied and drank. Patently untrue based only on my own personal experience, ...and I'm a bit older than you. That's why bookish types *still* get me all worked up. This whole "good girl/bad girl" thing is and always has been a myth IMHO. Y'know,...that old "book/cover" thing? > It is not a "bad girl" quality anymore. > So when Suzy Somebody who is President Student Council and voted most > friendliest is drinking at sleepovers, the other girls follow suit. > Girls are also very into impressing guys. Perhaps before being > sloshed was not a quality boys looked for in girls. <shakes head in disbelief> You're kidding, right? > (Sort of thinking along the lines of "Splender in the Grass" here.) > But now if they look more "grown up" with a drink in their hand to be [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I'm not sure what reasons could be given to conclude that alcohol > among the underage is lower than it used to be. Education. > > (snip) > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Vickie This link takes you to the National Household Survey on Alcohol and Drug Abuse, a government cite. Interesting stats: http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/nsduh/2k7nsduh/2k7Results.cfm#3.1.1 Fill >>> And the "drinking age" has fallen. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I wasn't talking about the legal drinking age. I was talking about the > age at which some children are beginning to drink alcohol *these days*. Do you know this? Or are you guessing? I wonder what the stats would actually say if there was an accurate way to know them. I will say that when I was a teen, there are alarmingly young kids that I was exposed to in my shitty jobs and volunteerism that were big drinkers. So I cannot conclude with no information that it is worse "these days." > Elementary age school age children drinking alcohol (or even becoming > alcoholics) was pretty much unheard of several decades ago. No it wasn't. I am freaking pollyanna, and I heard of it. I remember having a conversation with this little kid who used to hang around the pizza shop I worked at because his brother worked there. He partied with his brother and his brother's friends. Thought ir was cook as sh.t. He told my while utterlu shitfaced. >>> Heck, even some elementary school age children are now into alcohol, or >>> even alcoholics themselves! What does that tell you??? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > just say it wasn't "reported" back then, but it is now, and that's the > only, or even the main, difference). Well you can assert it all you like. I was around a few decades ago myself. I saw what I saw. You have not given me much information to value your assertion. >>> And THAT increasing prevalence HAS been a recent societal change. >>> (ditto [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I'm not comparing to 10 years ago. I'm comparing it to 6 decades ago. Oh. Do you have any stats to back that up? I thought 6 decades ago, the folks just went and got married asa teenagers. Doesn't much mean that they did not get knocked up as teenagers. >>>>> It's just yet another example of absentee parenting - done by >>>>> "parents" [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > You call that "caring"?? That's not caring, that's avoiding > responsibility. It's not just "they have the wrong idea". Assert on! I am sure that will make it so. (Not so much.) >>> IOW, they are a bit "out to lunch" in the parenting dept. Like giving >>> in >>> to their child's demands because it's just "too much work" not to, or, >>> they are just too clueless to even understand the ramifications - OR >>> both >>> of the above. > Assert on! I am sure that will make it so. (Not so much.) Don't irritate him with reality. He's much more comfortable in that little bubble of his. >> Assert on! I am sure that will make it so. (Not so much.) > > Don't irritate him with reality. > He's much more comfortable in that little bubble of his. Tone doesnt carry in e-communication, but he sure does not sound comfrtable. >>> Assert on! I am sure that will make it so. (Not so much.) >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Tone doesnt carry in e-communication, but he sure does not sound > comfrtable. Seein's how the rant hasn't changed for over a decade, I'd venture that he is. "The world has gone to hell in a handbasket, I'm the only one who sees it, and the rest of the world is simply blind." Certitude can be a comforting thing to some. > Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their > teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > there would be alcohol at the party. In our jurisdiction it is illegal to > drink until age 18. But apparently this happens quite a bit. I think this is a Big Mistake. When I was a teen, parentally chaperoned alch parties were just an excuse to get way overly drunk by all the kids there. So what do the kids gleen from that? It is ok to get hammered as long as there is a grown up there to hold your head over the toilet? > Our first instinct was to say she couldn't go. Then that she could go, > but wasn't allowed to drink. We ended up buying her two 'coolers' and let [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > her it wasn't allowed until she was in Grade 10 and even then only when > supervised. I want to know why parents of these children are allowing drinking parties at their houses in NINETH GRADE?!? Can 9th graders not come up with fun things to do at a party without drinking? > This daughter is very social and I have no doubt she will be asking to go > to parties all the time in grade ten (a couple of months away). > > What to do????? I will tell you our plans. My kids are little. But as part of our health education responsibilty, we have been discussing smoking, drinking and peer pressure. The primary lesson about smoking has been if you don't start, you don't have to quit. we have spoken about the risks, the damage to your body and that some significant percent of people wind up addicted. What I would do is; Educate about the risks. Not JUST addiction. That will seem far away to the invincable teen brain. But the risk of making a fool of yourself. The risk of reduced inhibition leading to dangerous sexual activities and date rape. The risk of diminished judgement leading leading to other dangerous situations like getting in car with a drunk person. Find real life examples, even from your life or those you know. Someone peeing themselves sounds like an effective one for a teenager. Can you imagine the horror? Do not OVER dramatize to lose credibility. But the risks are enough that you should not have to. Then I would scaffold life long learning by removing your allowing or not allowing. Tell them that you will give them the freedom to learn how to engage in these situaions safely. The right to attend these parties hinges on making the right choices while there. If the wrong choices are made, then the right to attend these parties will be restricted in the name of safety. The point is to lead them to independant conclusions and skills for handling these situations. If YOU limit and restrict them specifically, then they won't make independant learning about how much is too much, etc.. Also they will not make an independant decision to make the correct choices abou drinking, which is the lifelong message thata they must take away. Worse they may wind up with the sneak and hide mentality and thinking the taboo drunkeness is cool. Good luck. It is a tough issue. >> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their >> teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > not OVER dramatize to lose credibility. But the risks are enough that you > should not have to. This was easy before Junior High. In Elementary, they have a DARE program, where they show them all sorts of terrible things that can happen with drugs and alcohol. They are very effective. My kids used to talk about how stupid it is to smoke or drink, especially drugs. But once they start Junior High, they tend to forget. Thankfully, my kids still feel the same way about smoking and drugs. But alcohol seems to be something that alot of them do. Too many also do drugs and smoke, but it isn't as 'cool' as alcohol seems to be. > Then I would scaffold life long learning by removing your allowing or not > allowing. Tell them that you will give them the freedom to learn how to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > they may wind up with the sneak and hide mentality and thinking the taboo > drunkeness is cool. This is what we have been trying to do. Let them go (sometimes) but make sure they know that we are putting our trust in them to behave responsibly. My daughter asked to go to a party this Friday night quite a while back. A bunch of her friends are going. She told me that she only wants to take 2 coolers and wants us to pick her up at 11pm because she has a 'lacrosse' game on Saturday. She is much more mature than I was when I was 16. I would have partied till 2 in the morning and woke up hung over and played like crap. I am so proud of her. > Good luck. It is a tough issue. >>> Thought I would ask how others handle the Alcohol issue with their >>> teenagers. [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > But once they start Junior High, they tend to forget. Don't stop telling them! Don't wait for the school to do it! > Thankfully, my kids still feel the same way about smoking and drugs. But > alcohol seems to be something that alot of them do. Too many also do > drugs and smoke, but it isn't as 'cool' as alcohol seems to be. A LOT of people think alohol is harmless. So they are going to come across teens whose own parents think that drinking is harmless. You don't have to go along with the croud. That is why their liberty to attend functions where drinking is permitted must be hedged by the necessity to behave responsibly. >> Then I would scaffold life long learning by removing your allowing or not >> allowing. Tell them that you will give them the freedom to learn how to [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > would have partied till 2 in the morning and woke up hung over and played > like crap. I am so proud of her. Good for her! This is exactly how she needs to learn to behave. It may hiccup later. But it sounds like what you are doing is working fine! >> Good luck. It is a tough issue. |
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