Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / March 2008

C- wonder if there is a discount on the wedding?

(Taking this as a non-ironic question is a little risky.  Oh well.
I've not been following ASM for many months
and am still resoring a current context.
Maybe you're just trying to take Sen. Santorum's mind off dogs. :-)

I doubt that you are asking about the status quo
-- marrying as whatever gender one can pass as.

I would allow those with ambiguous genitals
to marry whomever wants to marry them.
--
Tsam

I'm sure most hermaphrodites know in their minds what gender they feel
like. I think in most cases that one set of genitals is usually better
formed than the other. If they felt male then they could marry female and
vice versa. If they didn't know then I guess they'd have to decide when
they met someone they wanted to marry.

Thinking back, I called in to a late night phone-in show on a Christian TV station. We
started getting into it about gay marriage. Being bisexual I'm for it (that doesn't mean
all non-straights are for it though) and as a fundamentalist, he was, of course, against
it.  In his feeble attempt to match males to females, I brought up the topic of
hermaphrodites.  He threw me off the air.

Sure.

Sure.

If you love yourself, perhaps.  Another concept is those who get a sex change.  *IF*
same-sex marriages were not permitted, what if (as in a real life case) there was a woman,
and a woman who was transsexual (born a woman but felt nature played a mean trick on her
and should have been male, and oftentimes gets corrective surgery aka a "sex change")? So
the transsexual gets the sex change (the other person refers to her partner in  the male
context before and after the procedure). So now you have it. A man and a woman. NOW is it
OK in the eyes of the extremists for this couple to get married? (BTW this is Ontario
Canada so they did indeed marry, but I'm being hypothetical.).  I don't know about the
mentality of some, but I've always figured that if two people love each other, what the
hell?  It's better than two people wanting to kill each other.

X-Signature: Vasectomy

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EVERYONE ELSE THINKS YOU'RE AN IDIOT
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wow - you know that is a really good question you pose considering the new
ban on gay marriage  - the hermaphrodites can slip through the cracks -
literally and figuratively. !

================
Perhaps I should paste in an article that is still being refined but
necessary in reaching into the Hermaphrodite community, people who are so
misunderstood by the church and forced into isolation or into the homosexual
community when a Hermaphrodite is not a homosexual unless by choice.
Article is lengthy but hope it helps.

Concerning marriage, a Hermaphrodite knows early in life if they are male or
female, but a true Eunuch as described by Jesus in Mt 19:12 is one devoted to
Jesus and celibate as myself. Governed by God and not lust or the glands.
Only three kinds of people on the planet, the natural man, spiritual man and
the carnal christian, only these three exist.
It would just be an opinion that a male hermaphrodite should be able to marry
a female hermaphrodite, some undergoing surgery to correct some physical
defects no different than any other physical defect like the Elephant Man.
this does not apply to the homosexual who are that way by choice and not by
birth. We are still born male or female. Have known female Hermaphrodites who
have married men who were not Hermaphrodites and have a very healthy Christ
centered marriage. Reverse is true for a Baptist missionary who married a
christian lady who was not a Hemaphrodite.

http://www.probe.org/probe-answers-e-mail/gender-issues/what-is-a-biblical-view-
of-transgendered-people-and-hermaphrodites.html

What is a Biblical View of Transgendered People and Hermaphrodites?
Written by Sue Bohlin   

A question someone posed to Probe Ministries and response.
Hello, I would like to know the biblical insight on transgenderism
[Definition: appearing as, wishing to be considered as, or having undergone
surgery to become a member of the opposite sex] and other sexual defects of
the human body. There are lots of issues like hermaproditism and
intersexualism [a set of medical conditions where the "sex chromosomes,"
external genitalia, or an internal reproductive system are not considered
"standard" for either male or female]. Please try to clear these issues up
with sound doctrine.


There are really two issues here: 1) transgendered people and 2) the
intersexed (new term) or hermaphrodites (older term).

The first is an emotional problem, not really a sexual one. The
"transgendered" label reflects a sexual identity confusion and not a true
condition. God doesn't create a person with the genitals of a male and the
consciousness and heart of a female. In Genesis 1:26, the Bible says, "And
God created man in His image, in His likeness; male and female He created
them....and it was very good." Maleness and femaleness are God's choice,
determined at conception. But growing into one's masculinity or femininity
and embracing it can be thwarted by very early events that prevent children
from having a clear sense of their gender. Gender identity is a developmental
issue, and it starts at birth. All the many, many layers of affirmation and
validation of one's personhood that contribute to self-understanding (of
which gender is a part) start getting laid down the moment one is born, and
they go on hour by hour, day by day, for years in childhood. No wonder so
many people think they were born gay, lesbian, or transgendered! They can't
remember all the way back to birth when the messages they received about who
they were, had yet to be delivered. In addition, some people perceive the
messages of parents and family differently than what was intended, and those
perceptions ARE their reality.

The biblical view is that God's intent for every male is to grow into
masculinity, and for every female to grow into femininity. When that doesn't
happen, the culture has come up with new labels to describe something new and
different: transgendered, transsexual. I believe God isn't affected by these
new labels nor does He have to honor them: He sees the people behind the
labels as His precious, broken children. It's only recently that the culture
has tried to suggest that "a woman in a man's body" and vice versa is a
variation of what is normal and right. The biology of sex alone tells us that
homosexuality (under which these other categories of emotional/sexual
dysfunction should be put) is not normal. The Bible tells us (Gen 1:26) that
God's intent is heterosexuality, with definite boundaries between men and
women in both appearance and behavior. (I can give you more information on
this concept if you want.)

I recently attended a national Exodus conference, a gathering of about 900
people who are walking out of homosexuality and those who minister to them.
It was interesting to me to see people there who would call themselves
transgendered, as well as transsexuals who had had sex-change surgery. They
were at the conference because of a growing awareness that they had
interfered with God's plan for their lives; God had revealed His intent for
their gender at birth. They had been living as the opposite sex in a false
self that was tragically far from what God had intended for them, and that
explained why the great pains to which they had gone to fix their brokenness
didn't bring the peace and relief they thought they would get through
assuming a new identity and/or having surgery.

Concerning intersexed people (hermaphrodites), allow me to share what Mark
Chalemin (at Fellowship Bible Church-North in Plano, Texas) and I
collaborated on to answer this question for someone else:

By definition a hermaphrodite is "a person born with both male and female sex
organs." Within this definition there are three labels; true, female pseudo,
and male pseudo. The first category is extremely rare with only 350-450 known
cases. The second type, and the most common, is female pseudo resulting in 1
of every 14,000 births. The main cause for this is a condition known as
Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia. In these cases there is an overproduction of
testosterone causing some "masculinized" features in the female. This does
not mean that there is any real gender confusion. There is not. As with any
female, her chromosome is XX. Any slight mutation, that may accompany is
treated early by corrective surgery. The same situation may occur in baby
boys with the same treatment. (There is a movement to stop this surgery,
which is being called genital mutilation by some of those who have had it,
and allow children's bodies to grow and develop naturally, even if they are
different.) It seems that even with ambiguous genitalia, these kids "know" if
they are intrinsically male or female. In either situation, the sexual
identity, given by God, may perhaps reveal traits normally associated with
the opposite sex. For example, the baby girl may grow up to be naturally more
athletic or aggressive than the average woman, but she is very much a woman.
Similarly, the baby boy may have a naturally heightened sensitivity and/or
affinity towards the arts. Nevertheless, he is still very much a man. What is
God's take in all of this? God views every individual as He made them. While
He did not make clones, he did create males and females with certain unique
sexual characteristics. He also intended for males to manifest primarily
masculine characteristics, and for females to manifest primarily feminine
characteristics, although both sexes reflect aspects of both the masculine
and the feminine in varying degrees. Along with those traits, He has provided
direction on how we are to relate to one another. There is no prohibition
regarding a slightly more "masculine" female or a slightly more "feminine"
man. God views them as he does anyone else, with love and delight, and He
desires that they experience all the freedom all He designed them to have,
within the boundaries of the sexual identity God gave to them. The fact that
some individuals are born with evidence of mutations in their sex-determining
genes doesn't change their value in God's eyes any more than someone born
with the mutation that causes cystic fibrosis or sickle-cell anemia.

You asked for sound doctrine; I can only respond with the wise and loving
boundaries that God has established for sex (which is usually the issue here,
right?). All sexual behavior is to be contained within marriage (see the many
condemnations of fornication). Men are to act and appear as men, and women
are to act and appear as women (Deut. 22:5). Even those born with genital
ambiguity are expected to submit to His boundaries. I realize this is a very
politically incorrect perspective in a sex-saturated culture that declares
sexual expression is a right for everyone. But it isn't. God wants every
person, regardless of their genital or chromosomal condition, to submit his
or her sexuality to Him and to glorify Him in whatever state we find
ourselves.

I hope this helps.
Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries

Sue added a letter I sent to her and placed with her article:

I was moved by this email I received from someone who lives with the
challenges of intersex every day, and wanted to share it here:

A pastor friend was removed from being a pastor due to the nature of his
birth (intersexed) in having both male and female parts, but condition helped
with surgery, now married with children.

I am at the foundational level of intersexed in being an XXY male, was 53
before learning of my condition, but had gone through the change of life and
also excessive breast tissue for a male.

I am always offended when we as intersexed people are spoken of in the same
breath with homosexuals or added to their agenda when those of us who follow
Jesus are as much opposed to the gay lifestyle as any other who will not
compromise God's Word to validate sin or lust. I also believe that a true
Eunuch is one who is unmarried and celibate which is only for those with the
gift to remain that way.

To this day I have never heard a sermon or teaching regarding hermaphrodites
in the church-- covered by the same grace but forced into the basement due to
ignorance and an imposed shame for being "so born from our mother's womb,"
something we had no choice about, unlike those acting on their homosexual
feelings or those with a mental condition rather than a genetic defect which
is temporary.

Your article about "transgendered" was interesting but I am more concerned
about attitudes we encounter for being who we are which to me is just unique.
Scars today only say that healing happened and no more open wounds. . . Just
as Jesus is proud of His scars that say healing happened.

To me there is just the Natural man, Spiritual man and the carnal Christian,
only three kinds of people on the planet with a variety of physical and
mental differences. But attitudes we encounter as intersexed people would
lead folks to think maybe there is an additional "type" who doesn't fit any
mold or classification or addressed in scripture. But again the only problem
I see is attitudes springing from ignorance; one can not love God without
loving all the people of God, yet the subject is rarely if ever addressed
completely to make us at least feel as if we fully belong among other people
more normal than we are and that we are not freaks. The real us is spirit!

Grace,
______



About the Author

Sue Bohlin is an associate speaker with Probe Ministries. She attended the
University of Illinois, and has been a Bible teacher and conference speaker
for over 30 years. She serves as a Mentor Mom and speaker for MOPS (Mothers
of Pre-Schoolers), and on the board and as a small group leader of Living
Hope Ministries, a Christ-centered outreach to those dealing with unwanted
homosexuality. She is also a professional calligrapher and the webmistress
for Probe Ministries; but most importantly, she is the wife of Dr. Ray Bohlin
and the mother of their two grown sons.

My additional comments:
This topic has weighed very heavy on my heart for several years, have to lay
much of the blame for the isolation of Hermaphrodites squarely in the lap of
the Church.
The world is the world and do not expect anything good to come from the world
as Satan is the god of this world, but the Church is established to be more
of a hospital for the sick and wounded rather than a monument to itself, yet
the Church has forced the Hermaphrodite into a corner in ignorance, having to
ask When is the last time you heard a sound Biblical sermon or teaching that
offers answers from God's Word concerning the Hermaphrodite ?

I know of one who was once serving as a Baptist missionary, aware of her
feminine identity but born intersexed, all was well until the pastor learned
of her being a Hermaphrodite and promptly removed her not just from the
mission field but also from the church, was not a homosexual, just being a
dedicated believer serving the Lord who happened to be born a hermaphrodite
or just as Jesus relates Mt 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so
born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made
eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for
the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive
it. 
This does not apply to any with an emotional problem, a homosexual is not a
Eunuch or among those mentioned by Jesus, while a Hermaphrodite, so born from
their mother's womb, serving the Lord rather than driven by lust, is one who
has a very high place of honor in God's Kingdom, at the very least an equal
to any other in the body of Christ, yet we have driven them into the arms of
the homosexual community who are happy to welcome them and pretend to be one
of them, but a Hermaphrodite can be both a Hermaphrodite and a homosexual,
one is not the other, one is by birth and the other by choice.

I will not get into the separate issue of the homosexual but at the same time
do not want to be unloving in any way which alone can drive any away from
Jesus, but for the homosexual and any other who has that sin nature to deal
with I strongly suggest a book by Pastor David Wilkerson called "Two of Me"
can read this book here at http://ldolphin.org/twoofme.html  
TWO OF ME
The Struggle with Sin
by David Wilkerson

Can also view at the World Challenge website at
http://www.tscpulpitseries.org/english/minibook/2ofme.html  presented in
seven chapters and can read in a day, but finding myself reading over and
over to fully digest.

All actions begin in the thought process and having had my own secret sins to
deal with to be completely free, idle thinking that is not pleasing to the
Lord, first stage of any physical act.  All must first be dealt with in the
thought process or in the temptation process before it is sin, not
responsible if a bird lands on our head, but fully responsible if we allow
that bird to build a nest and start laying eggs.

From the book:

A New Love
It is impossible to bring any life-controlling problem to a dead stop and
remove it without putting something else in its place. Sin won't yield to
exposure; fear can't drive it out; it won't self-destruct. There is no such
thing as a simple separation from an old habit.
It takes more than a simple act of resignation. It takes more than just a
Sabbath or nighttime emotion of sorrow. It takes more than a theatrical
surface repentance. The heart will not consent to be robbed of one affection
without another to fill the void. It will not consent to be left desolated of
love, unless a greater love dispossesses the old.
The heart of man revolts against being left empty; it cannot bear to be left
in a state of waste or cheerless emptiness. Nature does abhor a vacuum, so to
tear away any affection from the heart and leave it bare is a hopeless
undertaking. The human heart must grasp and fasten itself to some great
affection. It has to have something to lay hold on, to cling to.
Any person who tries to tear out of his heart some kind of pleasurable sin or
affection without putting something in its place is flirting with a
disastrous situation.

The last state of that man could be worse than the first, with a legion of
demons flocking in to fill the void.

Right direction doesn't come by understanding the wrong. It comes only by
understanding and claiming the bountiful promises of God in Christ Jesus. So
quit looking inward; look up to Him who loves you at all times. Stop trying
to figure yourself out, and rejoice in His restoring, healing love.