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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / October 2005



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Michaela - 21 Oct 2005 23:57 GMT
A long time ago in China, a girl named Li-Li got married and went
to live with her husband and mother-in-law. In a very short time,
Li-Li found that she couldn't get along with her mother-in-law
at all. Their personalities were very different, and Li-Li was
angered by many of her mother-in-law's habits. In addition, she
criticized Li-Li constantly.

Days passed days, and weeks passed weeks. Li-Li and her mother-in-law
never stopped arguing and fighting. But what made the situation even
worse was that, according to ancient Chinese tradition, Li-Li had
to bow to her mother-in-law and obey her every wish. All the anger
and unhappiness in the house was causing Li-Li's poor husband great
distress.

Finally, Li-Li could not stand her mother-in-law's bad temper and
dictatorship any longer, and she decided to do something about it.

Li-Li went to see her father's good friend, Mr. Huang, who sold herbs.
She told him the situation and asked if he would give her some poison
so that she could solve the problem once and for all. Mr. Huang
thought for a while, and finally said, "Li-Li, I will help you solve
your problem, but you must listen to me and obey what I tell you."

Li-Li said, "Yes, Mr. Huang, I will do whatever you tell me to do."
Mr. Huang went into the back room, and returned in a few minutes
with a package of herbs. He told Li-Li, "You can't use a quick-acting
poison  to get rid of your mother-in-law, because that would cause
people to become suspicious. Therefore, I have given you a number
of herbs that will slowly build up poison in her body. Every other day
prepare some delicious meal and put a little of these herbs in her serving.
Now, in order to make sure that nobody suspects you when she dies, you
must be very careful to act very friendly towards her. Don't argue with her,
obey her every wish, and treat her like a queen."

Li-Li was so happy. She thanked Mr. Huang and hurried home to start her

plot of murdering her mother-in-law. Weeks went by, and months went
by, and every other day, Li-Li served the specially treated food to her
mother-in-law. She remembered what Mr. Huang had said about avoiding
suspicion, so she controlled her temper, obeyed her mother-in-law, and
treated her like her own mother.

[me: we know what's coming, don't we?]

After six months had passed, the whole household had changed. Li-Li
had practiced controlling her temper so much that she found that she
almost  never got mad or upset. She hadn't had an argument with her
mother-in-law in six months because she now seemed much kinder and
easier to get along with. The mother-in-law's attitude toward Li-Li changed,
and she began to love Li-Li like her own daughter. She kept telling friends
and relatives that Li-Li was the best daughter-in-law one could ever
find. Li-Li and her mother-in-law were now treating each other like a
real mother and daughter. Li-Li's husband was very happy to see what
was happening.

One day, Li-Li came to see Mr. Huang and asked for his help again. She
said, "Dear Mr. Huang, please help me to keep the poison from killing
my mother-in-law! She's changed into such a nice woman, and I love her
like my own mother. I do not want her to die because of the poison I gave
her."

Mr. Huang smiled and nodded his head. "Li-Li, there's nothing to worry
about. I never gave you any poison. The herbs I gave you were vitamins
to improve her health. The only poison was in your mind and your
attitude toward her, but that has been all washed away by the love which
you gave to her."

MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly how
they will treat you? There is a wise Chinese saying: 'The person who
loves others will also be loved in return.' God might be trying to
work in another person's life through you.
jwb - 22 Oct 2005 01:30 GMT
> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly how
> they will treat you? There is a wise Chinese saying: 'The person who
> loves others will also be loved in return.' God might be trying to
> work in another person's life through you.

excellent story.

I have found the better I treat people, the more honest I am, and the better
overall person I am, the better my life becomes.
Doug Laidlaw - 22 Oct 2005 17:09 GMT
>> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly how
>> they will treat you? There is a wise Chinese saying: 'The person who
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I have found the better I treat people, the more honest I am, and the
> better overall person I am, the better my life becomes.

But it isn't easy.  I was fighting depression through Eric Berne's time.  He
called it playing a game.  The game has rules.  One person starts the game,
and the outcome is predictable.  To stop it, break the rules.  Don't shout
back, but ask with concern: "What is troubling you?"  In one
father-daughter situation, the father stopped short and said "That isn't
what you are supposed to say!"  If a couple always quarrel in the kitchen,
make a rule:  "We will go into the bathroom and quarrel there."  Anything
to break the pattern. After a while just a glance towards the bathroom
stops it.  It is very difficult to continue a quarrel under those
circumstances.

Closer to Michaela's story is one I heard about a wise old lawyer.  A woman
came to him and said she wanted to divorce her husband.  "I want to hurt
him all that I can." So the lawyer said:  "Go home, shower him with
attention and affection.  When you have him utterly dependent on you, come
back, and we'll pull the rug from under his feet."

The wife came back and said that she had done as he advised. "Right! said
the lawyer.  Now is the time to file for a divorce."

"Divorce?" replied the wife.  "Never! I've fallen in love with him!"

(Note for men:  Don't turn this on too suddenly.  Your wife will suspect
an affair.)

Doug L.
Signature

Registered Linux User No. 277548. My true email address has hotkey for
myaccess.
Remember when life's path is steep to keep your mind even.
- Horace (65-8 B.C.)

Michaela - 22 Oct 2005 22:54 GMT
>>> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly
>>> how they will treat you? There is a wise Chinese saying: 'The
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> "Divorce?" replied the wife.  "Never! I've fallen in love with him!"

Stories like this are written to be shared. Thanks.

- Michaela

> (Note for men:  Don't turn this on too suddenly.  Your wife will
> suspect
> an affair.)
>
> Doug L.
Seeker - 22 Oct 2005 22:20 GMT
> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly how
> they will treat you?

And what does that say about the lesson we're supposed to learn that
different people generally do *not* speak the same love language?
Signature

Ted

Michaela - 23 Oct 2005 17:45 GMT
>> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly
>> how they will treat you?
>
> And what does that say about the lesson we're supposed to learn that
> different people generally do *not* speak the same love language?

IMO there is only one kind of love. We get out what we put in.

By speaking about different love languages it almost sounds as
if one is creating blocks to love.

- Michaela
Seeker - 24 Oct 2005 02:43 GMT
> >> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly
> >> how they will treat you?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> By speaking about different love languages it almost sounds as
> if one is creating blocks to love.

No, just acknowledging the ones we are born with.
I take it you are not familiar with the observation, often talked about
here, that one of the common problems in a relationship is that
different people show love, and expect love to be shown them, in
different ways -- or  that "doing unto others as we'd have them do unto
us" is often the *wrong* prescription?  

Ted
michaelamackenzie05072001@yahoo.com - 24 Oct 2005 11:04 GMT
> > >> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly
> > >> how they will treat you?
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Ted

It's not for others to make us happy, they can help to
make us happy but the happiness still begins with us as
individuals.

We are so busy being needy and dependent on others to give
us what we want when we can really give it to ourselves.

- Michaela
Seeker - 24 Oct 2005 15:07 GMT
> It's not for others to make us happy, they can help to
> make us happy but the happiness still begins with us as
> individuals.
>
> We are so busy being needy and dependent on others to give
> us what we want when we can really give it to ourselves.

You didn't answer my question.

--
Ted
urf - 24 Oct 2005 17:10 GMT
>> It's not for others to make us happy, they can help to
>> make us happy but the happiness still begins with us as
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> --
> Ted

You don't understand her answer.
Seeker - 24 Oct 2005 17:24 GMT
> >> It's not for others to make us happy, they can help to
> >> make us happy but the happiness still begins with us as
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> You don't understand her answer.

Of course not.  She didn't understand my question.

--
Ted
Bill in Co. - 24 Oct 2005 19:03 GMT
>>> It's not for others to make us happy, they can help to
>>> make us happy but the happiness still begins with us as
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> You don't understand her answer.

Yeah, I'm surprised he missed it too.   (not that it's easy to "get there" -
that's for damn sure)
DrLith - 24 Oct 2005 17:17 GMT
> We are so busy being needy and dependent on others to give
> us what we want when we can really give it to ourselves.

If we can give ourselves what we want, why bother with a relationship?
urf - 24 Oct 2005 17:16 GMT
>> We are so busy being needy and dependent on others to give
>> us what we want when we can really give it to ourselves.
>
> If we can give ourselves what we want, why bother with a relationship?

One of the things I want is a relationship.
Bill in Co. - 24 Oct 2005 19:01 GMT
>> We are so busy being needy and dependent on others to give
>> us what we want when we can really give it to ourselves.
>
> If we can give ourselves what we want, why bother with a relationship?

I'll let ya know when I find out.     Leave the light on, will ya?
Joy - 25 Oct 2005 00:40 GMT
>> We are so busy being needy and dependent on others to give
>> us what we want when we can really give it to ourselves.
>
> If we can give ourselves what we want, why bother with a relationship?

I'll have to admit, my flash answer to this was 1.) sex and 2.) so somebody
else can help rake those d*** leaves!

mutters the person who doesn't own a leaf blower
Michaela - 25 Oct 2005 21:56 GMT
>> We are so busy being needy and dependent on others to give
>> us what we want when we can really give it to ourselves.
>
> If we can give ourselves what we want, why bother with a relationship?

From Peck's "The Road Less Traveled": p. 98 - 105

Allowing yourself to be dependent on another person is the worst
possible thing you can do to yourself. You would be better off being
dependent on heroin. Heroin will never let you down, if it's there, it
will always make you happy. If you are expecting another person to
make you happy, you will be endlessly disappointed.
Why be a parasite on an individual? Two people love each other only
when they are quite capable of living without each other but *choose*
to live with each other.

- Michaela
Bill in Co. - 25 Oct 2005 23:59 GMT
>>> We are so busy being needy and dependent on others to give
>>> us what we want when we can really give it to ourselves.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> dependent on heroin. Heroin will never let you down, if it's there, it
> will always make you happy.

REALLY????

Hmmm, maybe that's the solution.........
DrLith - 26 Oct 2005 01:33 GMT
>>>We are so busy being needy and dependent on others to give
>>>us what we want when we can really give it to ourselves.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> when they are quite capable of living without each other but *choose*
> to live with each other.

What a dodgy answer.

Why would you choose to live with someone else? The only answer that
makes any sense to me is that being with someone else gives us something
that being alone doesn't--something that we want, quite naturally.
rj - 26 Oct 2005 08:36 GMT
> >>>We are so busy being needy and dependent on others to give
> >>>us what we want when we can really give it to ourselves.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> makes any sense to me is that being with someone else gives us something
> that being alone doesn't--something that we want, quite naturally.

Yo, Doc!

This is probably just an excercise in semantics, but I strongly agree
with that TRLT quotation above.  I guess the semantic distinction lies
in the difference between "want" and "need" (ie. "be dependant on").

Hmmm...  it's been years since I read that book.  But though it was a
long time ago now, I went through it several times and found it to be
really useful.  <grin>  What initially grabbed me was the first line,
"Life is difficult" which is both true and a bit of wisdom that I
picked up from my parents.

rj
Emma Anne - 26 Oct 2005 19:01 GMT
> >> We are so busy being needy and dependent on others to give
> >> us what we want when we can really give it to ourselves.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> when they are quite capable of living without each other but *choose*
> to live with each other.

Scott Peck has some interesting things to say, but I *so* disagree with
him on love within marriage.
Bill in Co. - 26 Oct 2005 19:08 GMT
>>>> We are so busy being needy and dependent on others to give
>>>> us what we want when we can really give it to ourselves.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> dependent on heroin. Heroin will never let you down, if it's there, it
>> will always make you happy.

How can he even make THAT statement?     From what I heard, if you were
hooked on heroin, you would not always be happy.    For one thing, I thought
it took ever increasing doses.    And that you couldn't sustain the high ad
infinitem.    If that's wrong, maybe I ought to reconsider this possibility!

>> If you are expecting another person to
>> make you happy, you will be endlessly disappointed.
>> Why be a parasite on an individual? Two people love each other only
>> when they are quite capable of living without each other

"capable of living"?    but how well?   in what state?

>> but *choose* to live with each other.

Semantics here?     Is that somewhat of an an escape clause?

> Scott Peck has some interesting things to say, but I *so* disagree with
> him on love within marriage.
Seeker - 26 Oct 2005 19:35 GMT
> >> but *choose* to live with each other.
>
> Semantics here?     Is that somewhat of an an escape clause?

Well, Peck defines love as a choice -- a choice to nurture a person's
spiritual growth (our own or someone else's.)  It is not something that just
happens, but something we consciously elect to do.

--
Ted
Seeker - 26 Oct 2005 19:33 GMT
> Scott Peck has some interesting things to say, but I *so* disagree with
> him on love within marriage.

Could you expand on that?  I found parts tough to follow too.

--
Ted
Seeker - 27 Oct 2005 16:29 GMT
> >> We are so busy being needy and dependent on others to give
> >> us what we want when we can really give it to ourselves.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> when they are quite capable of living without each other but *choose*
> to live with each other.

Uh, having a relationship in which someone else fulfills an important role
is not the same thing as being dependent on them.

--
Ted
Bill in Co. - 24 Oct 2005 19:04 GMT
>>>>> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly
>>>>> how they will treat you?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> We are so busy being needy and dependent on others to give
> us what we want when we can really give it to ourselves.

But how, that is The Question.

> - Michaela
urf - 24 Oct 2005 19:13 GMT
>>>>>> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly
>>>>>> how they will treat you?
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
>> - Michaela

The first step to how.........

is to fall totally, head over heals in love with yourself.

When you adore yourself, when you wake each morning greeting each
part of your body with love.......

you become a magnet for love. It is your due.
Seeker - 24 Oct 2005 19:20 GMT
> The first step to how.........
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> you become a magnet for love. It is your due.

Well, it is true that the second "greatest" commandment hinges on being able
to love yourself -- "love your neighbor as yourself", so you do have a
point.

There is also the tricky part that you have to be able to love *all* of
you -- warts and all -- not the you you'd like to be or the you you project
to others.

--
Ted
urf - 24 Oct 2005 19:26 GMT
>> The first step to how.........
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> --
> Ted

Speaking for myself here Ted, I have no faults. I am perfect and I love me
for it.
Seeker - 24 Oct 2005 19:32 GMT
> Speaking for myself here Ted, I have no faults. I am perfect and I love me
> for it.

And you're the one who says there are parts of yourself you won't share with
Estelle.  Why?

--
Ted
Doug Anderson - 24 Oct 2005 19:35 GMT
> > Speaking for myself here Ted, I have no faults. I am perfect and I love me
> > for it.
>
> And you're the one who says there are parts of yourself you won't share with
> Estelle.  Why?

He's not the only one.  I have parts of me I won't share with Estelle
either.
Stephanie - 24 Oct 2005 19:40 GMT
>> > Speaking for myself here Ted, I have no faults. I am perfect and I love
>> > me
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> He's not the only one.  I have parts of me I won't share with Estelle
> either.

Hu. There are parts of me that DH doesn't *want*.
DaKitty - 24 Oct 2005 20:34 GMT
>>> > Speaking for myself here Ted, I have no faults. I am perfect and I love
>>> > me
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Hu. There are parts of me that DH doesn't *want*.

Yeah, you should have seen my terribly bad case of PMS Saturday!
Even *I* don't want that part of me!
urf - 24 Oct 2005 21:24 GMT
>> Speaking for myself here Ted, I have no faults. I am perfect and I love
>> me
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> --
> Ted

Separate things Ted. I'm not sure of what the intent of your question is.

If you mean that BECAUSE I don't share parts of myself with Estelle that
that is a problem then I have an your answer.

If you mean that I won't share my perfection with her then of course you
must realize that she is also perfect and is also in love with herself.

Please tell me what it is you mean so that I can understand how your comment
relates to what I said.
Seeker - 24 Oct 2005 21:37 GMT
> Please tell me what it is you mean so that I can understand how your comment
> relates to what I said.

As I recall, the context of your admission that there were parts of yourself
you wouldn't share with Estelle was because they were parts you were ashamed
of -- your dark parts.  If you are perfect, why do you have any parts to be
ashamed of?   And if I misunderstood why you don't share them with her, then
why don't you?

--
Ted
urf - 24 Oct 2005 23:29 GMT
>> Please tell me what it is you mean so that I can understand how your
> comment
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> --
> Ted

Shame is a part of me just like pride is a part of me.

I have them both. What I see when I look at
me is not what she sees when she looks at me. First off, she sees me not
only with
her eyes but with her heart and within the context of all she knows about
me.

I am not what she sees, to her, I am what she thinks I am.

I don't exactly know why I don't share many things with her. I have a pretty
good
grasp of what she thinks of many of the smells or sounds that come from me
from
me. She would not miss them. There is such a thing as TMI you know. On the
other
hand, I see your point. It is a reference to why you don't share the things
we talk about here
with YOUR wife. You have an image of yourself that you want her to know and
another
image that you want to hide if I get this right. Perhaps this is because you
really do
love your wife and you don't want to chance that she will dump you if she
knew the real
you. Your self esteem issues? Nonetheless, in my case what I don't tell
Estelle is really
not important. For the most part it is things about my carnal desires which
she probably
suspects to some degree anyway.

My cell phone just rang and it was Estelle. I asked her if there was
anything that I could
say to her that would change her feelings about me she responded by
saying.....

    Nothing could make me stop loving you.

after a moments thought she said

   If you stopped loving me

I asked.... "suppose I had another family or something like that that I hid
from you"

   If it turned out that the life I was living was all a lie that would be
very bad.

Perhaps you should think about that last one.

======================

          If You Forget Me

             I want you to know
           one thing.

           You know how this is:
           if I look
           at the crystal moon, at the red branch
           of the slow autumn at my window,
           if I touch
           near the fire
           the impalpable ash
           or the wrinkled body of the log,
           everything carries me to you,
           as if everything that exists,
           aromas, light, metals,
           were little boats
           that sail
           toward those isles of yours that wait for me.

           Well, now,
           if little by little you stop loving me
           I shall stop loving you little by little.

           If suddenly
           you forget me
           do not look for me,
           for I shall already have forgotten you.

           If you think it long and mad,
           the wind of banners
           that passes through my life,
           and you decide
           to leave me at the shore
           of the heart where I have roots,
           remember
           that on that day,
           at that hour,
           I shall lift my arms
           and my roots will set off
           to seek another land.

           But
           if each day,
           each hour,
           you feel that you are destined for me
           with implacable sweetness,
           if each day a flower
           climbs up to your lips to seek me,
           ah my love, ah my own,
           in me all that fire is repeated,
           in me nothing is extinguished or forgotten,
           my love feeds on your love, beloved,
           and as long as you live it will be in your arms
           without leaving mine.

           Pablo Neruda
Seeker - 27 Oct 2005 20:54 GMT
>             You know how this is:
>             if I look
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>             that sail
>             toward those isles of yours that wait for me.

Sorry urf.  As much as I love my wife, or would like to, I don't worship
her.
I have come close to writing poems like that.
But they aren't about my wife.  Or the pharmacist.  Or my soulfriend. Or the
woman who prompted me into counselling.  Or any of the Laurie's.  Or S____.
Or K____.

--
Ted
urf - 27 Oct 2005 23:06 GMT
>>             You know how this is:
>>             if I look
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> --
> Ted

Pablo Neruda was so masterful at poetry that I was moved to try some myself.

I'm reading the same thing that you are and I don't see worship in there at
all.
To me this portion of the poem is an expression of loving thoughts.

It's also interesting that you excerpted these lines and ignored the lines
which where
pertinent to the subject of the thread.

These lines clearly say..... my loving you is dependant on your loving me.

If that love were to end I will seek love elsewhere.

Ol' Pablo understood how to match the energy of love.... or not.

Seeker - 28 Oct 2005 15:14 GMT
> I'm reading the same thing that you are and I don't see worship in there at
> all.
> To me this portion of the poem is an expression of loving thoughts.

Yes, but towards whom?  Seriously, it really did bring to my mind love poems
towards God.

> It's also interesting that you excerpted these lines and ignored the lines
> which where
> pertinent to the subject of the thread.

Sorry.  I was distracted.

> These lines clearly say..... my loving you is dependant on your loving me.
>
> If that love were to end I will seek love elsewhere.

Not true for God, though.

> Ol' Pablo understood how to match the energy of love.... or not.

Yup.

--
Ted
urf - 28 Oct 2005 19:25 GMT
>> I'm reading the same thing that you are and I don't see worship in there
> at
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> --
> Ted

Maybe you should try getting your sexual desires fulfilled by god.
DaKitty - 24 Oct 2005 20:32 GMT
>> The first step to how.........
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>you -- warts and all -- not the you you'd like to be or the you you project
>to others.

You mean, you want people who don't like warts as your friends.
People who might accept a wart or two aren't good enough to be
friends??

is that what you're like? A wart or two, and you don't accept
someone???
Seeker - 25 Oct 2005 18:53 GMT
> You mean, you want people who don't like warts as your friends.
> People who might accept a wart or two aren't good enough to be
> friends??
>
> is that what you're like? A wart or two, and you don't accept
> someone???

That reminds me of the old line, I wouldn't want to be a member of any club
that would have me.

No, that's not what I mean.
What I do mean is that some of my warts are pretty big and I can well
imagine people not accepting me because of them.   So I keep them hidden.

--
Ted
Bill in Co. - 24 Oct 2005 19:24 GMT
>>>>>>> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly
>>>>>>> how they will treat you?
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> When you adore yourself, when you wake each morning greeting each
> part of your body with love.......

Nah.    I'm really not into narcissism.

> you become a magnet for love. It is your due.
Seeker - 24 Oct 2005 19:15 GMT
> But how, that is The Question.

Easy.   Become a schizophrenic and *then* you can have a relationship with
yourself.
Think of Gollum and Smeagol.

--
Ted
AllYou! - 24 Oct 2005 19:48 GMT
> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly how
> they will treat you?

Not at all true.  I've treated others very well only to have them treat me
poorly, and I've treated others poorly despite the fact that they treated me
well.  How we treat others can have an effect on how they treat us, and we
certainly have no right to complain about being treated as poorly as we treat
others, but how we treat others is no guarantee of how we'll be treated.
Michaela - 25 Oct 2005 22:20 GMT
>> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly
>> how they will treat you?
>
> Not at all true.  I've treated others very well only to have them
> treat me poorly, and I've treated others poorly despite the fact that
> they treated me well.

I've found that when I /noticed/ that I was treated badly by another it
had something to do with my personal lack of self approval. So
people treating me badly could be a sort of "wake-up" call, in
this sense:

"The devils that seem to be tearing your life away from you, seen
from another level, are angels freeing you from your attachment
to the earth." ~ Meister Eckhardt

 How we treat others can have an effect on how
> they treat us, and we certainly have no right to complain about being
> treated as poorly as we treat others, but how we treat others is no
> guarantee of how we'll be treated.

But if we change our own attitudes we may not *notice* them
treating us badly anymore. What we don't pay attention to needn't
eat up our time excessively, if at all.

- Michaela
AllYou! - 26 Oct 2005 12:47 GMT
>>> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly
>>> how they will treat you?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> from another level, are angels freeing you from your attachment
> to the earth." ~ Meister Eckhardt

Although that might be the case with some people, if everyone treated you as
well as you treated them, we'd all be perfectly safe and have no reason the
believe that we'd ever be mistreated.  IOW, you claim it always begins with you,
but how can that be also valid for the other guy?  Can't he also claim that it
always begins with him?

>  How we treat others can have an effect on how
>> they treat us, and we certainly have no right to complain about being
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> treating us badly anymore. What we don't pay attention to needn't
> eat up our time excessively, if at all.

If someone is verbally or physically abusive to me, I'll notice it.
Michaela - 27 Oct 2005 17:28 GMT
>>>> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly
>>>> how they will treat you?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Although that might be the case with some people,

What aspect of my post are you responding to?

if everyone treated
> you as well as you treated them, we'd all be perfectly safe and have
> no reason the believe that we'd ever be mistreated.  IOW, you claim
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> If someone is verbally or physically abusive to me, I'll notice it.

I don't believe I explained my pov well enough cos I'm not quite
certain what you are saying in response.

- Michaela
AllYou! - 27 Oct 2005 21:31 GMT
>>>>> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly
>>>>> how they will treat you?
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> What aspect of my post are you responding to?

You claimed that when you noticed that you were being treated badly, it had
something to do with your lack of self approval.  My response is that whereas
there are cases wherein my feeling of having been treated badly stems from
insecurity of some kind or another, there are also cases where I'm treated
badly, and notice that I'm being treated badly simply because the other person
is behaving badly.

> if everyone treated
>> you as well as you treated them, we'd all be perfectly safe and have
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> I don't believe I explained my pov well enough cos I'm not quite
> certain what you are saying in response.

I don't know where to go with this then because I think my response is pretty
clear.  If someone is verbally, or even physically abusive to you, do you not
notice it only as a result of some lack of self-approval?  If someone beats the
crap out of you and steals your money, you'll only be aware of it as a result of
some lack of self approval?
Stephanie - 27 Oct 2005 21:34 GMT
>>>>>> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly
>>>>>> how they will treat you?
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> someone beats the crap out of you and steals your money, you'll only be
> aware of it as a result of some lack of self approval?

From my work in a shelter zillions of years ago, some people do not notice
it at all as abuse, let alone for what reason it is possible. Some people
accept the blame for the abuse that the abuser places on them for the
beating.
AllYou! - 28 Oct 2005 12:10 GMT
>>>>>>> MORAL: have you ever realized that how you treat others is exactly
>>>>>>> how they will treat you?
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> at all as abuse, let alone for what reason it is possible. Some people accept
> the blame for the abuse that the abuser places on them for the beating.

Which is actually even more to my point.  The OP was trying to make the point
that bad treatment is only noticed as a result of lack of self-approval, but
you've just given a great example of the exact opposite.  Many people
*specifically* avoid noticing abuse *specifically* because of a lack of
self-approval.  I don't know if your intent was to align yourself with the OP's
position, or mine, but I think you just did a better job of making my point for
me than I did.
 
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