Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / June 2006

Well, I can see why you'd be thinking about this friend :-) Presumably
he's not just "this angry guy", he's also a guy she likes and values
when he *isn't* being angry.

Some rather lomg random thoughts on rage attacks....

Thought 1: You'll be delighted to know (not!) that two of my son's more
scary pre-diagnosis episodes involved scissors flying through the air.

Actually the first time, the scissors *didn't* fly. But he was holding
them while he was very, *very* enraged. The teacher decided the safest
thing to do was to clear all the other children from the classroom and
call for help. She told me afterwards that she didn't think he had any
intention of throwing the scissors or attacking with them, but he was
holding them and he would *not* put them down; he was not in full
control and it was a risk she could not take.

The second time was a slow burner from my point of view. My son was in
another room making angry noises and I heard a loud clonk. It was all
quiet aftwerwards so I didn't bother to investigate. Later on, by which
time my son had been calm for a while, I went in and noticed a pair of
heavy children's craft scissors on the floor near the door. I vaguely
wondered how they got there and picked them up. A couple of days later
I noticed a small deep dent in the wall. I vaguely wondered where
*that* had come from but I still didn't put two and two together. It
was maybe a week before I realised that those scissors had gone flying
through the air towards the door and taken that chunk out of the wall.
If I'd been coming through the door to see what he was upset about....
yikes. Well anyway, the craft scissors were put out of reach. As were
*all* the other scissors when I wasn't watching, for a very long time.

The funny (odd) thing with the second episode is that I wasn't scared
at the time. It was a long time before I added up the evidence and
longer still before the import - both the physical danger to me and the
implications about my son - really got through to me.

And yet, two years later, my son is still in a normal classroom, with
scissors, and he uses scissors same as the others. Ninety-nine per cent
of the time he is fine. And he is well supervised so for that other one
per cent, normal safety strategies apply.

Thought (2): Something else you might like to know about - the stages
of a rage attack, for children and adults.

Stage 1 - rumbling stage. The person is starting to get stressed, and
they may start to act stressed and angry (e.g. being rude, demanding,
impatient), or they may have some odd behaviours that don't seem to be
directly related to anger but that turn out to always happen before an
attack.  Sometimes it's possible to chill things down again at this
stage, by solving a problem for them, or leaving them alone, or
distracting them. But, sometimes it isn't possible! And challenging
someone directly during this stage can bring on the next stage.
Stage 2 - rage stage. Rationality is gone, and the person either
becomes violent, throws things, hits out, or may alternatively totally
shuts down and withdraws into themselves. At this stage, there is
little anyone can do except get out of the way.
Stage 3 - recovery stage. Some people are exhausted and fall asleep;
others are contrite; others may not remember what happened during the
rage. Even in recovery stage, trying to talk to them about what
happened may bring on another rage attack (depending). If the person is
not naturally contrite, then trying to get an apology from them at this
stage can be dangerous.
Stage 4 - back to kind-of-normal, maybe an hour or a day later. This is
usually the safest time to talk about it.

This is for an Aspie-type type rage attack, but it seems to follow a
similar-ish pattern to your husband's tempers(?), so this model might
give you a handle on his outbursts even if he isn't a proper Aspie!

And Thought (3) - a 24 hour plan? If he might be cracking up then it
would be useful to make a "24 hour plan" to get away in a crisis. You
might get a scenario where he has picked up the nearest object and
thrown it, and it's a dangerous object like a tool or a knife, and you
just want to get yourself and the children safely out of his way while
he calms down and you can think about what to do next. Something like:

Choose a place where you and the children could go. Maybe there's a
nice motel you know about, or family nearby, or ask a discreet
trustworthy friend if you and the children would be able to stay at her
place for 24 hours in case of emergency.

Make up a small case of stuff - fresh overnight things for you and the
children, a couple of new toys/amusements each. Keep it in your car.

Keep a clean credit card, some cash, car keys, mobile phone etc in a
purse/bag hanging near the door.

Think of short clear instructions ready to tell your children - perhaps
to go get a specific favourite/comforting toy and then go outside to
wait for you by the car.

You could probably leave the dog at home (but preferably not in the
same room as your husband!). I don't get the impression that your
husband is vengeful towards her. Nor that your husband would come after
you or try to stop you all leaving.

I think it's especially important to have a readymade plan because of
your daughter's potential ODD. If you appear confident and certain
because you have already decided what to do and where to go, she's a
lot more likely to do as you tell her in an emergency. It may not be
possible to work out in advance what you'll do after that, because the
circumstances are not predictable, but once you get to your temporary
place you'll be able to decide what to do next, whether that is simply
to go back, or to stay away, call mental health, return the children,
send them to family, etc etc.

You may never need to *use* the 24-hour plan, but IMO it's a good idea
to have it for "just in case".

All the best,

Cailleach

"Zorra" <zorra@adelphia.net> wrote in message

LOL! Maybe that came to mind because my suggestion was about dealing with
the inconvenience of living with that angry guy....you need strategies to
cope. It comes down to this: you manage the situation in order to maintain
your otherwise great life, and you keep on managing the situation until the
time comes when you decide it is no longer worth it.

Amy

I don't remember that, fortunately.    And that's a really disgusting thing
to say, so I'm glad I don't remember it.   But then again, with a lot of
society, nothing really surprises me too much anymore.   One just has to
lower one's expectations to the subbasement level, and then one can't be
disappointed anymore.   (Or so I've heard).

It would be an "unknown", and probably an unknown hardship, but I don't
think it would be an unknown "bad".    What you have now doesn't sound good
at all.

Your daughter is _appropriately_  too young to know what she wants.
Your husband, on the other hand,  is old enough to know better.  I'd
venture to guess that there's more hope for her future than there is
for his.

well, we are also only getting one side. No offense to Zorra.

I don't think it's going anywhere. But of course, that's just my (fairly
worthless) opinion

What JWB does not have are children.  Mr. Zorra (hopefully) has not
physically hurt them...but if he has not already hurt them emotionally
andmentally; it's just around the corner.  Role modeling to our
children, how to deal with anger, is far more impactful than anything
that we teach our children with our words.  My 28 year old son still
remembers the time that as I went to shut the trunk, he went to stick
his hand in to get something that he forgot.  He was about 10 or
so...old enough to know better.  I screamed, caught the trunk from
closing and raised my arm as if to smack him silly (but I didn't).  We
actually both started laughing that I almost hit him for the first
time.  I did tell him that it was the stupidest thing that he had ever
done...and I never used name calling while raising my children.

Of course we typically hear the worst of the worst when Zorra comes in
here wtih some kind of new acting out issue and yeah, it's easy to over
act.  I'll guess for those of us who do react/respond the most
emotionally, are the women who are the protective bears of their little
cubs.  Don't get between a mom and her children is all I can say.

Surely we all lose our temper from time to time; that's normal and
healthy.  What's normal and healthy is to put closure on the bad
behavior.  I've tossed my keys and after I tossed them, I explained how
wrong that was and I apologized for scaring my daughter and told her I
wouldn't do it again.  We also talked about althernatives to frustion.
That's how life usually works around here when there's tension and
anxiety.  I doubt Mr. Zorra would sign up for this plan.

I'm not saying it's ok. I am saying I don't think she needs to map out a
route to the safe house.

ugh.... you need to go.

Which simply means, he's denying owning up to it - to the responsibility.

No offense, Zorra, but these are not the (responsible) actions of an ADULT,
and you're trying to rationalize some of this is not healthy.

It still sounds like a case of abuse.     Actually, it IS abuse.   What are
you thinking about doing about it, if anything?    Or do you have any ideas
at this point?

[snip]

Wow - deja vu.  This was a hallmark of my marriage -- it was always
something external that was to blame for anything and everything that
went wrong -- and he never forgot a single thing.  He would pick
fights about things that happened 10 years ago as readily as 5 minutes
ago.  

I feel sometimes a peculiar sense of exhaustion when I read your
postings, Zorra -- an echo of my past.  So I know I'm projecting big
time.  

I just feel so much empathy for you and what you're going through.
It's incredibly hard, and people get  distressed that you can't "see
the light" and take a different course of action -- they did with me,
anyway.

Me -- I see you moving to a place where you are taking care of you -
posting here is one of those ways -- and I know, in time, you will
know in your heart what you need to do.  You are a strong woman, and
whatever happens, that will sustain you.

Barb

And that's where I think the issue becomes abuse-like.  (Don't
use that word if you don't want to - you're right that only the
person in the situation can ultimately decide whether it's abuse -
but, remember, later on, your kids will get to decide about it, too).

Right - so he never individuated, which would mean he had
Good Mommy/Bad Mommy straightened out in his head (and
knew that real women aren't either one of them).  So, you're
Bad Mommy.  And this is a guy who doesn't think he ever
had a Bad Mommy.  If we take him at his word (and I know a
guy just like that, actually) - he was spoiled rotten.  You'll
never be able to measure up to his Mommy.  Have you talked
to her about his childhood?  Does she say he was perfect
and never threw tantrums?

Sigh.  So, he was perfect as a child, his mom was perfect, and
the only three Aliens he's met are his wife and two children.

How about his dad?  Did his dad ever go after people's property?
As long as it remains unimportant property (the horse example
is probably the most troubling, as a toy that looks like a living
thing is different than a vacuum, I think - and it belonged to a
child; the mouse was more impersonal too).

Does he express affection toward the kids at other times?  Is he
proud of their accomplishments?  Does he remember to help
with their homework?   Having the kids home for summer is indeed
stressful - I wouldn't worry too much about them "bickering" at
the summer camp with others, the camp should be able to handle
that.  Are they going to do more camp after the ones they are in?

At some point, you might be able to at least have a conversation
with him about that, admit that you realize your parenting doesn't
"live up" to his standards (he thinks you're too lax with the kids).
Don't promise to change, of course.  Just acknowledge his remarkably
high standards, and that those standards make it hard for him to
be around (his own) small children.  Don't ask for suggestions (he's
likely to give them anyway).  He may feel something of a stranger
in his own home at this point.

I'd certainly talk to your MIL (if she's at all the kind you can talk
to) about how they disciplined him as a kid and what kinds of
things they had to discipline him for.   How does he do with
regular things, like potty training and getting the kids to pick up
the house?

A.

That's kind of odd, and not a good thing IMO. He doesn't see his mom as a
real person, with warts and flaws. Now he's got  you, who he's probably
comparing to this All-Perfect-Mother, and you're coming up way short. If
she's on the pedestal, of course you have to fall somewhere below that.

Did he have any girlfriends or serious relationships before you? He probably
has very unrealistic expectations of what a wife/mother/woman ought to be.

Maybe his rebellious stage was delayed twenty years, and you're feeling the
brunt of it, like his mom would have if he'd gone through it at the
appropriate time. Not sure if any of this is accurate for you, but my
16-yr-old son (the "easy" one of my three boys) is giving me trouble today
and I see some rebellion coming on - mostly focused on me.

I think that if you weren't worried; you wouldn't be posting.  I know
that you need an outlet, but I think that this is more than _just_ an
outlet.  He might not fit the "profile" of an abuser, but then again,
there really is no such thing as a typical abuser.  They come in all
shapes and sizes.  Your husband sound less typical than many...but he
certainly does not fit the profile of a healthy, wel adjusted
man/person.  From your description, he seems/sounds very troubled and
in need of help.  My major concerns from all that you share is the
impact on your children, who for whatever reason, are already troubled.
You have this group as an outlet, but your children don't know that
there is actually anything wrong with their dad.  Not only don't they
know that their dad is not terribly healthy, but if they did know,
they're not mature enough to have outlets in which to vent their
displeasure.  They're victims at this point.

No one in this group can tell you what to do Zorra and you clearly are
not ready to leave.  But for the sake of your children, I have had  and
continue to have concerns about the safety of your children;
physically, mentally and emotionally.   I feel for you and wish that I
could say something that might help.

You say he doesn't drink. Could he be abusing prescription drugs?

Well, that sounds like a reasonable plan. It's not guaranteed that your
husband will get *all* the help he needs from doing this because the
focus will be on your daughter; but at the very least your husband
should get valuable help on how to interact with her. And if these
psychs are on the ball then you are right, it could be a *very* big
step in the right direction for him too.

So that sounds like a top priority for the time being: keeping things
stable enough so that you can all get to see this psych.

Two things to bear in mind. First the house of cards; you might hold it
up for a while but you can't hold it up forever. We'll hope it stays up
for *long* enough to get help. So, do whatever it takes. Even re-read
"The Explosive Child" with your husband in mind! Second, the volcano;
you and the children are living on the slopes. Volcanoes are
unpredictable things, so keep a weather eye out for new developments.

And if things don't work out the way you hope, or if he does degenerate
too quickly for that, well, you'll deal with it as it happens. One
thing at a time, eh?

Yes these are all changes,  but surely none of these things would be
enough to tip a normally functioning person into incoherent rage
attacks. That's why I made the point about me being unfaithful as a
"reasonable" cause for violent rages - these causes are just not on the
same scale. So either he is cracking up anyway, or he has deep-seated,
long-term problems which mean he can't cope even with lesser in his
life. Or both. (Now if he was an Aspie then his worsening rage attacks
could be pretty "normal" responses to the level of changes and stresses
that you've describedstresses , but being an Aspie isn't normal either

And keep in mind that the particular *form* of breakdown he's having -
worsening rage attacks - is very dangerous to the people around him.
Much more dangerous than, say, weeping attacks or hiding in a corner
and refusing to get out of bed.

So I do think he is in serious and deepening trouble, he and the kids
are stressing each other out, and it would be safer all round (for the
time being at least) to separate him from the kids as much as possible.

And FWIW, I'm not sure that supervising a scout camp is a good activity
for your husband in his time off. Can you get him out of there and send
him off fishing or golf playing or whatever calms him down? I realise
the answer may be "no", but if possible IMO it would help. This is a
family crisis. He's not a danger to the children at the camp but right
now he doesn't need the added stress and you and your children don't
need the results of his stress!

I think you are a *very* brave woman. There are no perfect solutions
and whatever you do now is the right thing to do. Just keep getting
yourself through the days.

Cailleach