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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / September 2006My best friend ruined my life
Yeah, that's a contradiction, isn't it? A year and half or so ago, I found out that my husband had been lying to me about financial matters. We had "our" stuff, then there was "his" stuff and a little bit of "my" stuff. I knew the score with our stuff, but he lied about his, which put everything on the line. It's too darn complicated to get into, but I went from thinking I was on ok financial ground to teetering on the edge of bankruptcy by simply opening the mail one day. I tried to stand by him and get through this. He wouldn't do anything except ignore the problems. I finally felt like I had no choice, but to sell everything I had any control of and get myself away from him as fast as possible. So I did. I sold my entire life, everything that was important to me. What I didn't sell, I gave to him in a marital settlement agreement in exchange for a house to live in. I fully intended to be done with him forever. We did not get divorced because I could not find a job and had no insurance. He agreed to stay married until I could secure some kind of insurance. So we had settled all property, etc, but are still legally married. This last year has been one of the worst of my life. I was desperately broke, totally heart broken and struggling to deal with losing my home, my marriage, my business, my farm, my cows and my entire way of life. I was suicidal at times, depressed beyond belief, angry enough to spend hours contemplating just exactly how to burn down everything he owned and basically a basket case. I was struggling just to survive in all areas of life. Meanwhile...not much changed for him. He came out of the marriage with MORE than he came into it with, while I lost everything. Everything, including the stuff I had coming in. As I tried to get on my feet, I found myself calling him. I have no family in this area of the country and no close friends. My car broke down. I had no one to call but him. When I was at my worst emotional moments, I had no one to call but him. He never, ever failed to answer that phone, even when it was me, screaming at him about how he ruined my life. I HATED him, but he was the only one I could turn too for help for different things. In my mind, I would set out to use him...get something from him, but he was always so ready and willing to help when I needed it, that my "using" just fell flat. I'd get what I wanted, but his attitude was just loving and helpful. It really deflated my revenge balloon! How can I get revenge on someone who loves me like that? It was impossible and it backfired on me. All I did was fall in love with him all over again. Things have calmed down over the last few months. My situation has improved since I found a decent job (still no insurance). I can pay my bills and not have to worry so much. My pain and anger has subsided, though I still miss all that I lost. We have had some good talks. He says he lied to me to "protect me" from the stress of the true financial picture. He says he can see how that was a big mistake. He also admits to some other stuff he did and how it caused so much damage, even though that wasn't his intention. On one hand, I believe that he has learned his lesson, but on the other hand....if another financial situation were to happen (and don't they always), I can see him retreating to this same behavior again. I just can't trust him when it comes to money. The man ruined my life and he'd do it again if he was backed into a corner. I want the man I love so much, but how can I build a life with someone who I can't trust with such a fundamental issue? He has said some things that give me hope, but the only way to tell for sure is to take the risk again....and I just don't think I can take it again. It would kill me. Getting blind-sided....it's not just the stuff, it's the betrayal, but the stuff is important too. I worked hard...HARD...blood, sweat and tears for the things I had....and it's all gone. I can't face working and building something else, only to lose it again due to his irresponsibility. I could face losing it...if we lost it together...if it were just a bad economy or something, but he stole it from me. I never had a fighting chance. How can a man be so perfect in some ways and so awful in others? How can my best friend do this to me???? He has asked me to go to counseling and I refused for a long time because I didn't see the point. I am afraid of having any hope. If I have hope, I must trust him...at least enough to think that he'll give it his best shot in counseling. I don't even want to trust him that much. Dang that pain is still so close....what if he "gets" me again? I guess it's not a matter of whether or not I trust him, based on all the things we have discussed in the last year...it's a matter of whether or not I WANT to trust him. If I want to take that chance again.... I don't know what to do. Why did he have to do this? I have never been so torn in my life. > He has asked me to go to counseling and I refused for a long time > because I didn't see the point. I am afraid of having any hope. If I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I don't know what to do. Why did he have to do this? I have never > been so torn in my life. Do the counseling. It doesn't mean that you'll get back together, but it will help you to think more rationally about how you feel and what you want going forward. Next time, do not yourself to be kept in the dark about money matters. ... I review our accounts and monthly budgets with my wife, even if she says she's too busy. "Just tell me where to look, if you die." Arggh. =R= I'm a little confused here.. You left your husband due to financial problems, this is what I understand... Were there any other problems or was that it? I mean... to me... You maybe broke, or he may be... but you need to stick together to work on it and get back on your feet, not leave him with everything you own... I'm guessing the situation was overly bad, but somehow you should have tried to deal with it together rather than selling some stuff and giving the rest to him... I donno... I just believe that if a couple loves each other, they should remain together even if they have nothing to hang on to... > How can a man be so perfect in some ways and so awful in others? How > can my best friend do this to me???? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I don't know what to do. Why did he have to do this? I have never > been so torn in my life. I get the feeling that you would like to try and salvage your marriage but that pride is standing in your way: you feel your husband has made a fool out of you and you're afraid he'll do it again. Pride is not a good reason to walk away from a marriage, however, so you might want to consider if that is what's going on. There would be no shame in making a conscious decision to accept his past behaviour (not to necessarily forgive, dismiss or forget it) and trying again in spite of it. Clearly you'd need to take steps to protect yourself by keeping financial affairs separate and having full disclosure on all money-related affairs (any protests about this from him would be a warning sign) and you'll probably still need a lot of counselling to come to terms with what's happened in the past but it would be possible, if you wanted to try. It seems like you're avoiding counselling because you're afraid of examining your feelings towards him too closely and you're worried he'll "trick" you into going back to him - perhaps you ought to see it more as an opportunity for you to both express your take on what happened and see if you can agree on where to go from here, even if that means you agree to call it quits. You're a grown woman who can take her own chances and make her own decisions; it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Sure you might try it and he might let you down again but this time you'll be prepared and at least you'll know that you gave it your best shot. On the other hand, maybe you'd be better off without him - clearly I don't know either of you and can't answer that question. If that's the case, however, I'd stop calling him and concentrate on getting your life together. Regardless of his past behaviour, it's not honourable to keep using him as a crutch if you have no intention of giving him another chance. Cheers Helen >> How can a man be so perfect in some ways and so awful in others? How >> can my best friend do this to me???? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > good reason to walk away from a marriage, however, so you might want to > consider if that is what's going on. F**k pride...He cleaned her out! > <hemulen27@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message > > I get the feeling that you would like to try and salvage your marriage > > but that pride is standing in your way: you feel your husband has made [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > F**k pride...He cleaned her out! Yeah, I guess I phrased that badly. What I meant was that she seemed to be all over the place - first saying she hates him but then calling him all the time and then saying she can't forgive him but considering getting back together with him - and she needs to get it clear in her head how she really feels. If she wants to finish it (and personally I'd find it hard to get over something like this) then she needs to stop calling him and move on with her life (and start by getting a divorce). What has happened already would be more than enough reason to walk away from the marriage but for some reason she hasn't quite done so. If she really can't leave it behind then she needs to start working out exactly what it is she wants and where to go from here. I was concerned that the OP is basically preparing to go back to her ex and was trying already trying to abdicate responsibility for her choice ahead of time - "it wasn't me, he made me do it!" I was just saying that whatever she chooses to do, it's her call and she needs to go into it with her eyes open. I am puzzled as to why a problem with *his* finances caused her to have to sell all her stuff to clear the debts, though. I realise we only got one side of the story but it sounded like her immediate reaction was to panic and sell everything when it may not have been necessary. Again, I think she needs to learn where to set her boundaries and to work out what it is she *wants* to do, not what she thinks other people think she ought to do. Cheers Helen (snip) > What I didn't sell, I gave to him in a marital > settlement agreement in exchange for a house to live in. (snip) > He came out of > the marriage with MORE than he came into it with, while I lost > everything. Everything, including the stuff I had coming in. I'm going to leave the marriage issue to others for the moment and just focus on this. Why did you do this? I see a severe lack of taking care of yourself and insisting on a fair deal here. People generally treat you how you let them, and until you value yourself enough to make sure you are treated right I foresee a lot of being walked on in your future. > Yeah, that's a contradiction, isn't it? > A year and half or so ago, I found out that my husband had been lying [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > financial ground to teetering on the edge of bankruptcy by simply > opening the mail one day. You know, I hear all the time about married couples who have separate finances. And this sort of always strikes me as odd. Our finances are completely combined and have been from the beginning. She doesn't work now, but even when she did, both paychecks went into the same account. She did all the fiances and was very good at it. I guess if I had been taken to the cleaners in previous marriages I may want them to be separate. I think that's really a trust issue. If you can't trust the other person with your finances, how can you trust them with anything else? I think when married couples have separate fiances there are a few unintended consequences. First, there's a lack of transparency which you discovered first-hand. This leads to financial temptations that could cause problems later. Second, there always seems to be competing goals. He wants a boat, she wants a new kitchen, etc. So rather than working as a team, they each go off on their own with their own goals. They're no longer working to achieve the same goal, the same life. My wife and I are amused when we hear married couples in stores negotiating over who's going to pay for the new dishwasher because the old one died. Who cares? The family needs a dishwasher. There's nothing to discuss. Of course, this requires the willingness and ability to compromise as well as the ability to be sympathetic to the other's wants, hopes, and dreams. I love my wife, so I'm willing to make financial sacrifices so that she can realize her dreams. And I know that she treats me the same way. If I'm willing to pay extra for the cool dishwasher that she really wants rather than the minimum I can talk her into, then I know that next time, she'll be ok with the better TV or my silly car stereo habit. I think before, he had issues trusting you with the truth. Maybe your past behavior meant that he was afraid of how you would respond. And judging from your reaction, maybe he was right to be afraid. Now, you have issues (rightfully so) trusting him with finances. I'm sure others here will violently object to this advice. But maybe it would help if you two opened a joint account and combined the finances, which you would control. He gets the advantage (which I like) of not having to deal with the finances. You get the advantage of never having to worry about trusting him with that aspect of your life. Of course, the down side here is that you'll both have to cooperate on spending. That's probably a good thing. And both of you will need to feel like you have the same level of control and access to the finances. You need balance. One can't take advantage of the other. And he can never buy you flowers again without you getting the bill. :-) brian > > Yeah, that's a contradiction, isn't it? > > A year and half or so ago, I found out that my husband had been lying [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > old one died. Who cares? The family needs a dishwasher. There's > nothing to discuss. I think you're confusing two slightly different issues here. I agree that couples need to be able to have frank discussions about their money and be able to come to some agreement on what it should be spent on but I don't think that having a joint account magically makes that happen. That particular approach works for you because you and your wife have similar opinions on financial matters; I can see it being the kiss of death for some other couples. Some people would find having to justify or discuss every purchase with their spouse unbearably restrictive. > I'm sure others here will violently object to this advice. But maybe > it would help if you two opened a joint account and combined the > finances, which you would control. He gets the advantage (which I > like) of not having to deal with the finances. You get the advantage > of never having to worry about trusting him with that aspect of your > life. I'm not sure how this would work - if it was truly joint, how could she control it? What's to stop her husband emptying it? Also, this doesn't address the issue of one partner taking out secret loans and credit cards that their spouses are never aware of. Cheers Helen >> > Yeah, that's a contradiction, isn't it? >> > A year and half or so ago, I found out that my husband had been lying [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >justify or discuss every purchase with their spouse unbearably >restrictive. Indeed. When I was with my first wife, we had a joint account. And for the first 3 or so years, the cheques required BOTH signatures. As long as this was the case, our finances went along as planned. But then INTERAC came on the scene. INTERAC does NOT allow for a double signature scenario, and I figured, what the hay - we had been together for 3 years, so I truested her - RIGHT??? Yeah, right. Shortly after she got unresticted access to the account, our finances went to hell because SHE was a spendthrift! That woman racked up almost $40,000 in debit over a period of a few years. When I tried to discuss things with her, all I got was continual arguements and back-chat, with a heapin helpin of "crazymaking" on top. "You DO love me, don't you???"............... Oh the manipulation. Then the crap hit the fan. We both lost out jobs in the same week, and went bankrupt. Even after bankruptcy, she had not learned her lesson. When we purchased our house, the bank automatically gave us a line of credit! Well it only took about a year, and she maxed it out. And when the ,arriage finally crahsed and burned, I wound up paying half. What an insult, With my new wife, we both have individual finances, and our joint finances. We agree on what expenses will be paid jointly, and what we will save jointly, and then the total is computed, and the individual financial contributions are agreed upon (usually mirroring percentages of differences in salaries). Whatever we have left over and above our joint contributions remains in our own personal accounts. And this works just fine. Let me tell you what it was like in my first marriage... My first wife damanded to be surprized. Yet, sabotaged that at every turn. She used to examine bank statements in detail. Since we had no individual accounts, and had not cudgeted an "allowance" for each other (did not have the money) she would see the store that I would buy her presents at, and guess what she was getting. Imagine getting it in the ear not only for not "surprizing" her, but also because we did not have the money! Then, I triied no getting her a gift because out finances SUCKED. BIG MISTAKE! I don' think we had sex for about nine months after that. And I was CONSTANTLY reminded almost daily. You simply could not win. She had me back into a corner and it did not matter which way I turned, or even if I stood still - I got abused. So now I INSIST on separate finances. I told my wife about this in the initial dating stages and she agreed 100%. Seems her experience was similar to, but not as bad as, mine. So now when I feel like treating her to flowers or dinner out, I never have to wonder where the money will come from. If I need to buy parts for my hobbies, I do NOT have to ask my wife or anyone else. If I feel like having lunch out, I feel NO guilt about it. As long as I meet the agrreed upon obligations, beyond that I answer only to myself. I will NEVER relinquish this level of control over my own life to ANYONE EVER AGAIN. It is NOT a matter of trust, it is a matter of survival (and sanity). When my ex and I split up, she lied and reported all my cards "stolen". She emptied our accounts and then had them frozen. And since my paycheque has JUST been deposited in those accounts, I had NO MONEY for over 2 weeks. I had to borrow from friends and pay it back. It took MONTHS to undo that damage. Opening my own accounts, getting cards replaced, explaing to banks and credit card companies about the divorce, being served at work with divorce papers and having to explain to my coworkers........... Nope! For finances there are mine, hers, and OURS. This is the best model, OMHO. It meens that I can keep reigns on my expenses. It means that nothing is paid jointly unless we exlicitly agree to it. It means we have a budget that is continuously reviewd and agreed to. There are NO "surpizes" for us. And we like it that way. >> I'm sure others here will violently object to this advice. But maybe >> it would help if you two opened a joint account and combined the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Helen Why should they be a secret??? > Yeah, right. Shortly after she got unresticted access to the account, > our finances went to hell because SHE was a spendthrift! Ah, but you didn't pay attention to the account, right? There's a difference between being deceived about the financial troubles, and not doing due diligence in keeping at least some tabs on how the finances are going. The whole point to my original post wasn't to suggest that she take control of the finances so that he can just ignore them. It was to create a system that encourages honesty and transparency. That's doesn't to much good if you're looking the other way. :-) Then again, your wife could have been hiding things from you. >That woman > racked up almost $40,000 in debit over a period of a few years. When I > tried to discuss things with her, all I got was continual arguements > and back-chat, with a heapin helpin of "crazymaking" on top. "You DO > love me, don't you???"............... Oh the manipulation. So this is really a relationship issue playing out in the finances, right? > With my new wife, we both have individual finances, and our joint > finances. We agree on what expenses will be paid jointly, and what we [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > joint contributions remains in our own personal accounts. And this > works just fine. Then no worries, right? It seems complicated and unnecessary to me, but then again, I never went through what you describe. I would probably do what you're doing if I had. > Let me tell you what it was like in my first marriage... > My first wife damanded to be surprized. Yet, sabotaged that at every [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > You simply could not win. She had me back into a corner and it did not > matter which way I turned, or even if I stood still - I got abused. In my experience, a significant percentage of women are simply psycho. Sounds like you found one. > So now I INSIST on separate finances. I told my wife about this in the > initial dating stages and she agreed 100%. Seems her experience was [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > NO guilt about it. As long as I meet the agrreed upon obligations, > beyond that I answer only to myself. I do all of those things. It's just that I wouldn't try to buy a car or a big screen tv without including her. For us, I guess it's sort of like common couresy. >I will NEVER relinquish this > level of control over my own life to ANYONE EVER AGAIN. > It is NOT a matter of trust, it is a matter of survival (and sanity). It sounds like you're trying every day to survive something you've already lived through. To me, this is a trust issue. You don't trust her (or anyone) with your finances. This is more of a life style thing though so if it's working for you now, stick with it. Glad to hear things are working better this time. brian <snipped> > In my experience, a significant percentage of women are simply psycho. > Sounds like you found one. Heh. Let us not forget that a significant percentage of men, as well, are psycho. Speaking of past financial woes... My 1st husband and I got to a point where we had seperate finances when he was working as an EMT while he was going to school to be a paramedic. I was teaching, and making fairly good money for that area. That first year teaching, I was paying all the household bills from my check, including paying his mother to babysit for us. In addition, I was able to set back $200 a month into the savings account. I told him that since we were now both working, he needed to change his W-4 form to reflect the changes in our income. He didn't listen to me. That year, I had to send in every penny that I'd saved to pay our tax bill. I've no idea what he did with *any* of the money he earned that year, or at any time after that. For some reason, I found that I couldn't budget and save money after that point like I'd done before. Took me years to get over what that did to my fiscal sense. Still working on it sometimes. Kitten > With my new wife, we both have individual finances, and our joint > finances. We agree on what expenses will be paid jointly, and what we [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > joint contributions remains in our own personal accounts. And this > works just fine. Sounds good to me, and is pretty close to what my DH and I do. > Let me tell you what it was like in my first marriage... > My first wife damanded to be surprized. Yet, sabotaged that at every [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > You simply could not win. She had me back into a corner and it did not > matter which way I turned, or even if I stood still - I got abused. Why do you think she did this? Did she feel she wasn't "worth" a gift or allowed to be happy? My husband has a story about an ex of his (when they were both poor students) who pitched a fit because he had bought some nice food for them both on the way home and she refused to accept it because she couldn't afford to repay the favour. Rather than take it as a nice gesture and accept it graciously, she ruined what was meant to be a nice thing for both of them over a principle. I just can't understand that kind of thinking... > So now I INSIST on separate finances. I told my wife about this in the > initial dating stages and she agreed 100%. Seems her experience was [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It is NOT a matter of trust, it is a matter of survival (and sanity). I think the secret doesn't lie in the model, so much, as in sharing a common outlook. If your DW didn't agree with your approach, you wouldn't be so happy,. would you? So, I think your approach suits you two, just as ours suits us, but I'm sure other people would find this very clinical and would only be happy with total mingling (which is fine, as long as the common outlook and trust is there as well). > Nope! For finances there are mine, hers, and OURS. This is the best > model, OMHO. It meens that I can keep reigns on my expenses. It means [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Why should they be a secret??? I was just arguing that having a joint account so that the "sensible" partner could police the spendthrift one wouldn't solve the problem as the irresponsible person would just go out and get money in other ways. I wasn't saying that people shouldn't have singly-held loans or credit cards. Cheers Helen > I think you're confusing two slightly different issues here. I agree > that couples need to be able to have frank discussions about their > money and be able to come to some agreement on what it should be spent > on but I don't think that having a joint account magically makes that > happen. True, but I think having one account means that both people will look in the same place to figure out where the money stands. >That particular approach works for you because you and your > wife have similar opinions on financial matters; I can see it being the > kiss of death for some other couples. Agreed. It can't work without the right prerequisites. >Some people would find having to > justify or discuss every purchase with their spouse unbearably > restrictive. We don't do that, far from it. We sort of have this threshold that we both are aware of. It's not a pre-defined number, but we both feel it when the purchase is getting to high. I wouldn't think anything of going out and spending $50 here or there on something I want without telling her before hand, and she does the same. But if the purchase gets above maybe $200, then it warrants a discussion before hand. How much was already spent that month affects this also as does the current financial state. This all requires good communication which I think is also a prerequisite. And of course, everyone's numbers are different. > I'm not sure how this would work - if it was truly joint, how could she > control it? For us, I sort of take the executive view. I watch the major stuff and sort of keep a high level view and participate in the long term planning. But she writes all the checks and does the math. Sometimes I go months without looking at the finances at all depending on how busy our lives are. For some things (like our corporate account, long story) I'm the only signatory so she has to bring me checks to sign. But she's really managing everything. >What's to stop her husband emptying it? Nothing. But at least she'll instantly know when it happens. And there's ways around that also, maybe have a savings account that's only in her name. But that isn't joint anymore. So this goes back to the relationship prerequisites. >Also, this doesn't > address the issue of one partner taking out secret loans and credit > cards that their spouses are never aware of. But the bill on the secret loan or credit card doesn't get paid unless it comes out of the joint account. And she holds the checkbook. I guess this is all built on a sort of trust but verify system. The point to this wouldn't be to hold him financially hostage to her every approval, just to prevent him from doing things without her instantly knowing about it. He knows this so he behaves. She knows this so she feels better, no trust issues. brian > >Some people would find having to > > justify or discuss every purchase with their spouse unbearably [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > financial state. This all requires good communication which I think is > also a prerequisite. And of course, everyone's numbers are different. Well, just for the record, my husband and I have a somewhat similar situation, although it's based on single accounts (although we have a joint account for bills, etc). Even though we have our own accounts, I would generally not buy anything major without consulting my DH. Sometimes, though, if I just *want* to buy something, and I have the money to spare, I do. I think it's an important thing to occasionally be able to buy something without having to ask "permission". A recent example of this was when I recently decided to get laser eye surgery. Of course I talked it over with my husband and asked his opinion (not just in a financial sense) but I didn't give him the power of veto. It also helps with the surprise gifts, of course :) Again, however, I think this works because DH and I have a reasonably equivalent outlook on money, so major disagreements are thankfully rare. > > I'm not sure how this would work - if it was truly joint, how could she > > control it? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > But the bill on the secret loan or credit card doesn't get paid unless > it comes out of the joint account. And she holds the checkbook. Yes, but you're still assuming a basically rational and responsible approach to debt, and perhaps assuming that the misbehaving partner is just overspending a bit. What if they've got an addiction to gambling, have managed to win for a while but are now losing and just taken out a big loan to "win back" their losses? Which may work for a while, until the inevitable happens... What if the partner is bi-polar (or just really irresponsible) and is spending like crazy on cards but not even attempting to make payments? What if they hit the limit on one card and just take out another one to pay off the first? I suspect someone could manage to get themselves into quite a hole before they even attempt to make payments on the first loan/card. I think you may not have much experience of just how crazy some people can be with their money - for which you should count yourself lucky :) Cheers Helen Hi Helen, >I think you may not have much experience of just how crazy some people >can be with their money - for which you should count yourself lucky :) I'll second that. Given that these days apparently about 80% of people don't totally pay off their credit card each month, then that is a lot of people out there who would fit my particular definition of being lousy money managers. I think it is really great if you have a partner with similar financial values to yourself, who you can really trust. However, there are a _lot_ of perfectly nice people out there, who are nice people in every regard, except they are just appalling money managers. And you combine yours and their finances only at your own peril. Some people are really nice and basically slobs too. And funny how neatos and slobs attract one another. :) Ross (To get email address ROT 13) ebff_qnyl@lnubb.pbz > Yes, but you're still assuming a basically rational and responsible > approach to debt, and perhaps assuming that the misbehaving partner is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > manage to get themselves into quite a hole before they even attempt to > make payments on the first loan/card. The idea is that she would get all the credit card bills, so she would know when they're late or full. She would also get the bills for any new credit cards since he wouldn't have an independant way to pay them. He may run out and sign up for things on his own. But she would have to know about them. > I think you may not have much experience of just how crazy some people > can be with their money - for which you should count yourself lucky :) I agree. My wife is very level-headed and good with money, probably moreso than I am. My only frame of reference are the girlfriends I had before getting married. And a few of them were indeed psycho. :-) brian <snipped> > We don't do that, far from it. We sort of have this threshold that we > both are aware of. It's not a pre-defined number, but we both feel it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > financial state. This all requires good communication which I think is > also a prerequisite. And of course, everyone's numbers are different. I'll spend all sorts of money without consulting Chewy, but it's on agreed-upon transactions. Today was payday. I blew through most of his check in no time, as usual, but except for lunch on the road for YD and me, it was all farm business-related (mortgage, mechanic, feed bill, gas in the truck, butcher, etc). I guess lunch on the road could be considered business-related, too, since we were on the road to pick up meat from the butcher. Because things are so tight, *any* purchase either of us wants to make outside our agreed-upon transactions gets discussed. Except, maybe, health issues that come up. That gets taken care of without discussion, then we just figure what other transaction(s) is getting re-budgeted. Kitten <snipped> > I think when married couples have separate fiances there are a few > unintended consequences. First, there's a lack of transparency which [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > talk her into, then I know that next time, she'll be ok with the better > TV or my silly car stereo habit. I'm sure plenty of people roll their eyes at the discussions Chewy and I have. They're usually along the lines of which comes first, the most immediate household repair or the most immediate farm need. If it's a want instead of a need, I usually reply with, "Sell more lamb." (Of course, this week he's sold 10# of barbacoa to the guy who runs the cafe in his office building and is working on a catering deal, for us to provide the meat for 150 at a special event where halal meats are needed.) Usually, if I over-spend, it's on buying things for him. He works all week at a job an hour away so that I can be home and educate the kids, and so that we can pay the farm bills. My end of the deal is to do whatever is in my power to make his dream (the farm to pay for itself) a reality. > I think before, he had issues trusting you with the truth. Maybe your > past behavior meant that he was afraid of how you would respond. And > judging from your reaction, maybe he was right to be afraid. Now, you > have issues (rightfully so) trusting him with finances. Seems like a plausible hypothesis. > I'm sure others here will violently object to this advice. But maybe > it would help if you two opened a joint account and combined the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > other. And he can never buy you flowers again without you getting the > bill. :-) I like the advice. (Of course, that's how we do things, too.) But that flowers thing can be a definite negative. I *do* miss him occasionally surprising me with flowers or something else really nice. Kitten > I like the advice. (Of course, that's how we do things, too.) But > that flowers thing can be a definite negative. I *do* miss him > occasionally surprising me with flowers or something else really nice. Fortuntately for me (usually), my wife is brutally practical. The only flowers she would appreciate are flowers that I got for free somewhere by chance. :-) It kills me to hear men complaining about their wives running up the credit cards with hand bags and shoes. I have the opposite problem. She wears my clothes until I complain. I have to talk her in to buying clothes for herself. I guess it's this practicality that ensures that she manages the money wisely. I've had some ex-girlfiriends that I wouldn't hand the paycheck over to. If I really wanted to surprise her with something, I'd skim cash from the atm machine for a couple weeks to pay for it. Of course, that runs counter to whole point of my original post. :-) brian > > I like the advice. (Of course, that's how we do things, too.) But > > that flowers thing can be a definite negative. I *do* miss him [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > practicality that ensures that she manages the money wisely. I've had > some ex-girlfiriends that I wouldn't hand the paycheck over to. LOL... You should talk to Chewy. Ya'll seem to have a bit in common. He's fussed at me about clothes a few times. ;-) We're trying to get to the point that our farm will pay for itself, plus trying to get it paid off. Nearly every penny of his paycheck goes into farm expenses. Thankfully, the farm is starting to make enough for a few household expenses. lol > If I really wanted to surprise her with something, I'd skim cash from > the atm machine for a couple weeks to pay for it. Of course, that runs > counter to whole point of my original post. :-) Chewy'd skim it off the money I give him for gas and the occasional breakfast taco. I've a feeling the guy in the cafe in his building would help him do it, too. LOL... (We sell the guy goat meat for any of his family's special occasions.) Kitten Thank you for all the replies. To provide more information...someone else on here mentioned a farm, so perhaps they will understand. Farm finances can be quite different from what most people are used too, plus farms add complexities... He was in default on his farm loans. Our joint farm loans were not in default. As far as the bank is concerned, it's all tied together. If they foreclosed on his stuff, the joint stuff would follow because it could not stand alone and everything is security for everything. That is what happened and why I sold out the stuff I could. I paid off all debts that had my name on them. He still has his debts, but he also still has his assets. I love my husband and he has much to offer me that I need in a marriage. He really is my best friend. I would like to work it out, but I need some kind of reassurance that the same thing won't happen again. He has continued to increase his debt and he agrees that he will eventually lose it all. I told him that I would be willing to take over the finances for him, but I would only do so if I had legal control. He would have to sign everything over to me, so that I could be assured that he could not sell stuff behind my back, or incur more debt. He has done both things in the past. He says he trusts me and he knows I could get the finances in shape, but...it becomes a family issue. He owns ground that he inherited with his brothers. His sons expect to inherit all his ground. I don't have a problem with that, but if he were to sign me onto this stuff...his family would go completely ballistic. It is funny, in a really sad way, but when I discovered the money problems, I encouraged him to go to his family. I figuired they could offer advice, etc. It took about three days for them to determine that it was all my fault and that I am the bad guy. They would not have known if it weren't for me, yet they fear.....I honestly don't even know exactly what they fear, but they hate my guts. If he were to hand over control to me, his family would disown him. On the other hand, when push came to shove, he basically disowned me by putting me into a position where I had to sell out. He never had to make the choice, or take the responsibility for it, thus saving him (in his mind) from hurting either me or his family. Does that make sense? He basically sold me out...let me take the fall to solve the immediate problem, to save himself from having to appear to be selling out his family for me. I know that I am asking for a lot. I know he would be very much at risk of me just taking off and taking all his stuff with me. I just know I wouldn't do that. If I did choose to leave at some other point, I'd give it all back. I don't want his stuff, but I do need the ability to have some security in my own life. I don't see any other way to do it. He says he does trust me in that regard and I think he does. He just doesn't want to face the backlash from his family. I could just go back with him and continue on with my life, letting his mess continue on it's course. I just don't see the point in being with someone if there is no common goals, no common life. I would forever be working on MY life, while he is working on his and heck, I can get that from a roommate. I could work with him on his stuff, but the minute he dies (he is 17 years older than me), I'd be put out on the street. That is not good either. We tried the separate thing and this is where it got us....it didn't work. I want a real marriage. I want a partnership. I want the trust and love and mutual respect. We got started all wrong and it just spiraled down from there. I think maybe we can re-start and get on better footing, but I don't know how. I honestly think he needs to make the decision to be married FIRST. The needs of our marriage and each other have to come before his desire to leave something when he dies. I think it can all work out...our needs can be met and have plenty left over, but it's like he is living for the day he dies and structuring his life around that. It just doesn't work. It took me a long time to even tell him that I'd be willing to do the finances. I didn't want to appear to be a gold-digger, though I know that is exactly what I appear to be. At this point, I don't care how I appear because I know that my motives are pure. It's just the only way I can see to make it work. I'm open to any other suggestions, criticism, etc. We do have an appointment with a counselor, but not for another two months. I could find one sooner maybe, but we tried one that turned out to be a nutcase and I'd rather wait for someone who is well recommended. I have been recovering from a surgery this last week and have spent every night at his house. He is so good at taking care of me. I just fall in love again and again, but then I get depressed because I don't see a way out of the money issues.....well, I do see the way, but he won't agree, or come up with another idea. This hurts. > Thank you for all the replies. > > To provide more information...someone else on here mentioned a farm, so > perhaps they will understand. Farm finances can be quite different > from what most people are used too, plus farms add complexities... I'm the one who wrote about having a farm. We're in Texas, and ours is a start-up. We've been trying to make a go of this for three years. You're right that it adds another level of complexity to the relationship. > He was in default on his farm loans. Our joint farm loans were not in > default. As far as the bank is concerned, it's all tied together. If [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > debts that had my name on them. He still has his debts, but he also > still has his assets. OK. Sounds like you did what was needed to reduce the debt. Are the debts he's accrued farm-related? > I love my husband and he has much to offer me that I need in a > marriage. He really is my best friend. I would like to work it out, > but I need some kind of reassurance that the same thing won't happen > again. IOW, there's something there worth fighting for, but it's going to take a lot of work. > He has continued to increase his debt and he agrees that he will > eventually lose it all. I told him that I would be willing to take > over the finances for him, but I would only do so if I had legal > control. He would have to sign everything over to me, so that I could > be assured that he could not sell stuff behind my back, or incur more > debt. He has done both things in the past. Is there any way you can work it to have legal control without him signing everything over to you? > He says he trusts me and he knows I could get the finances in shape, > but...it becomes a family issue. He owns ground that he inherited with > his brothers. His sons expect to inherit all his ground. I don't have > a problem with that, but if he were to sign me onto this stuff...his > family would go completely ballistic. Can you do a business partnership of some sort that would work around this? > It is funny, in a really sad way, but when I discovered the money > problems, I encouraged him to go to his family. I figuired they could > offer advice, etc. It took about three days for them to determine that > it was all my fault and that I am the bad guy. They would not have > known if it weren't for me, yet they fear.....I honestly don't even > know exactly what they fear, but they hate my guts. That bites. Family can be a big issue sometimes. > If he were to hand over control to me, his family would disown him. On > the other hand, when push came to shove, he basically disowned me by [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > problem, to save himself from having to appear to be selling out his > family for me. Are you going to be able to put this, and your strong feelings about it, behind you? Unless you can do that, I don't know how you'll be able to improve your relationship. > I know that I am asking for a lot. I know he would be very much at > risk of me just taking off and taking all his stuff with me. I just [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > way to do it. He says he does trust me in that regard and I think he > does. He just doesn't want to face the backlash from his family. Talk to a lawyer. There should be some way of working it out so that he can't sell anything without your OK. Perhaps having it so that he retains full ownership, but you both have to sign to sell anything? That would satisfy his family's concerns, as well as yours. > I could just go back with him and continue on with my life, letting his > mess continue on it's course. I just don't see the point in being with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > street. That is not good either. We tried the separate thing and this > is where it got us....it didn't work. Not sure what you're discussing here. There are lots of couples where one spouse has a farm and the other has a business, and they're able to have a good relationship beyond that. > I want a real marriage. I want a partnership. I want the trust and > love and mutual respect. We got started all wrong and it just spiraled [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > over, but it's like he is living for the day he dies and structuring > his life around that. It just doesn't work. A lot of people do that. > It took me a long time to even tell him that I'd be willing to do the > finances. I didn't want to appear to be a gold-digger, though I know > that is exactly what I appear to be. At this point, I don't care how I > appear because I know that my motives are pure. It's just the only way > I can see to make it work. I'm open to any other suggestions, > criticism, etc. You want to take on the finances of a farm that's operating so far in the red that it's in danger of being lost, and you think that makes you look like a gold-digger??? > We do have an appointment with a counselor, but not for another two > months. I could find one sooner maybe, but we tried one that turned [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > see a way out of the money issues.....well, I do see the way, but he > won't agree, or come up with another idea. This hurts. Is there any way you can get in to see a financial counselor? Perhaps a Christian financial counselor? Perhaps you could be the CFO for the farm, with something worked in that disallows him selling anything or getting any loans without your authorization? Kitten |
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