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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / September 2006Do I stay with my gambling husband?
I am at a complete loss. I don't know what to do and I feel like my entire life is falling apart. My husband and I have only been married for 5 months. Before we got married, while we were still dating, he went to Vegas with his friends and lost $2,500. Granted, we were only dating, but we had planned on a future together and we had been saving for a house. He was very honest about the money that he lost and he promised that he would not do it again. Fast forward about 8 months. Now we are engaged, and still saving for that house. I found out that he gambled away our ENTIRE house fund on online casinos. Everything that we had been working so hard for was, again, gone. Tens of thousands of dollars. Gone. This is when I really realized that he had a problem. I confronted him about it and he lied. He lied to my face about it. He swore he didn't do it. When I told him that I had proof, he finally fessed up. I insisted that he get help immediately. He went to a few Gamblers Anonymous meetings, swore he would never do it again and that was it. I supported him and even went to the meetings with him. I really believed that he had gotten his wake-up call. We even went so far as to have his paycheck deposited into my account so that he would have very limited funds and maybe discourage his gambling. Fast forward (again) to a couple of weeks ago. We are now married. I find out (again) that he has lost almost $4,000 on online casinos. I confront him again and again he lies to me. This time though, after he lost the money, he got his mom to give him the money so that he could pay the bills before I found out. He also lied to her about why he needed the money. He is so ashamed and he swears he won't do it again, but how can I believe him? I love this man very much and I truly cannot imagine my life without him in it. But, I can't live the rest of my life worrying about where every cent we save is going. His gambling has now forced me to not have things that I have wanted...a husband that I can trust, a home, etc. I have spent the last year saving every single cent and I have given up so much and he hurts me again. In addition to all of this, I have also noticed other changes in him. He is restless with his job, he is lethargic, he has gained some weight and we haven't been intimate in...well, forever. I understand that gambling is just as much of an addicition as alcoholism or drug abuse. I also know that a lot of the other ways he has changed result from his gambling. However, I don't know if I can stay and let him continue to disappoint me and break my heart over and over again. This whole thing is making me sick, both mentally and physically. I can't eat, I haven't slept in days and now I sit at my desk crying my eyes out because I am so confused. Do I stay and hope that he gets better or do I cut my losses and get out now? Thank you to anyone who takes the time to read all of this or leave me advice. > Do I stay and hope that he gets better or do I cut my losses and get > out now? Get out now or you (and your future children) will live in absolute poverty. > > Do I stay and hope that he gets better or do I cut my losses and get > > out now? > > Get out now or you (and your future children) will live in absolute > poverty. I love him so much though. And I feel like if I leave that I will have given up on him and given up on my marriage. What if I leave and this really was the last time he ever does it? > > > Do I stay and hope that he gets better or do I cut my losses and get > > > out now? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > given up on him and given up on my marriage. What if I leave and this > really was the last time he ever does it? OK, here's my suggestion. I know "Biff" won't like it, but "Biff" is new to me, and totally negative in what I've seen posted thus far. 1) Set up a savings account in your name only. I don't have anything like that going, but drastic times require drastic measures. You need to be able to make sure any funds you're saving are available. 2) Set up an account specifically for household bills, in your name only. The account you currently have can be designated for "mad money," or whatever. 3) Work out a budget with your husband that has a certain percentage of his paycheck going directly, via direct deposit, into the household and the savings accounts. Make sure there is something left for him to have as personal funds. He can't learn to not gamble away the funds if he has nothing at all to not gamble away. 4) Find yourself a local support group. Go through a church, gamblers anonymous, or the local mental health clinic. They should all have references to groups for the family members of addicted gamblers. 5) Keep writing here, especially while you don't have a local support group in place. 6) Learn to take the advice that is helpful to you and to ignore the rest. HTH, Kitten > > > > Do I stay and hope that he gets better or do I cut my losses and get > > > > out now? [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Kitten Thank you so much for taking the time on all of that. I really appreciate it. But, we did ALL of that after the last time this happened. He was able to do it this time by borrowing money from his mom. I can't control it if he borrows money from people or opens credits cards or opens loans without my knowledge. I grew up in a home with an alcoholic and I just don't know if I can live the rest of my life with my husband's behavior. > > > > Do I stay and hope that he gets better or do I cut my losses and get > > > > out now? [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > 6) Learn to take the advice that is helpful to you and to ignore the > rest. Kitten, The problem with that advice is that in 3 months when Mr Katie is $5000 in debt, as husband and wife, the money in the accounts you've designated will have to go to paying that off. Being in the wife's name only does not protect the money from the husband's gambling debts. The support group is a decent idea (if she is willing to stick with this man who doesn't sound like he has a lot going for him and who is going to subject her to financial ruin), but I don't believe there is any way for her to protect the family finances from ruin. > Kitten, > The problem with that advice is that in 3 months when Mr Katie [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > going to subject her to financial ruin), but I don't believe there is > any way for her to protect the family finances from ruin. Exactly. I know that with all of this, there are no garauntees and that scares me. As a child, I lived in a home where money was extremely tight because of my alcoholic dad. Determined to make my life and future different, I went to college, studied hard, and now I have a well-paying job as an electrical engineer. I'll be damned if I let everything I have worked so hard for just go right down the toilet. However, I love this man SO much and I just don't know if I can just walk away. What if he doesn't get better? What if I had stayed and he would have? > > Kitten, > > The problem with that advice is that in 3 months when Mr Katie [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > walk away. What if he doesn't get better? What if I had stayed and he > would have? I'm afraid he is more likely to get better sooner if you _don't_ stay. But I understand your doubts about that. Life is full of situations in which one has to make the best decision one can make in the light of what one knows. And there are often "what ifs" that can never be answered. > However, I love this man SO much and I just don't know if I can just >walk away. What if he doesn't get better? What if I had stayed and he >would have? WHY do you love him? Is it the gambling that you love so much? Perhaps it's the lying, or the lethargy regarding his job, or the fact that he's pissed away your hard-earned dough. I just don't get it. Lauri in WA > > Kitten, > > The problem with that advice is that in 3 months when Mr Katie [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > walk away. What if he doesn't get better? What if I had stayed and he > would have? Divorce him, establish separate accounts and then just live with him. Avoid altogether having children - will he get a vasectomy? It's very likely genetic, anyway - it seems questionable for him to have children. Then, you can love him all you want. Since children should be out of the question in these circumstances, why be married, anyway? A. > Kitten, > The problem with that advice is that in 3 months when Mr Katie [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > going to subject her to financial ruin), but I don't believe there is > any way for her to protect the family finances from ruin. Exactly. I know that with all of this, there are no garauntees and that scares me. As a child, I lived in a home where money was extremely tight because of my alcoholic dad. Determined to make my life and future different, I went to college, studied hard, and now I have a well-paying job as an electrical engineer. I'll be damned if I let everything I have worked so hard for just go right down the toilet. However, I love this man SO much and I just don't know if I can just walk away. What if he doesn't get better? What if I had stayed and he would have? > Exactly. I know that with all of this, there are no garauntees and > that scares me. As a child, I lived in a home where money was > extremely tight because of my alcoholic dad. Ah, I see. That explains a lot. Returning to the way of life that you understand. > Determined to make my > life and future different, I went to college, studied hard, and now I > have a well-paying job as an electrical engineer. And then you married a sorry-a.s excuse for a man that's going to wreck your life just like your dad did to you. > I'll be damned if I > let everything I have worked so hard for just go right down the toilet. That's exactly what you're doing, and you deserve it. > However, I love this man SO much and I just don't know if I can just > walk away. What if he doesn't get better? What if I had stayed and he > would have? You're dumber than mud lady and can't even see it. Enjoy your impoverished, miserable life, especially that great big awakening you'll have in about 20 years when you realize you've thrown your life away on this loser. Congratulations. You just graduated Idiot-U. > You're dumber than mud lady and can't even see it. Enjoy your > impoverished, miserable life, especially that great big awakening > you'll have in about 20 years when you realize you've thrown your life > away on this loser. What a helpful new poster we have here! > > You're dumber than mud lady and can't even see it. Enjoy your > > impoverished, miserable life, especially that great big awakening > > you'll have in about 20 years when you realize you've thrown your life > > away on this loser. > > What a helpful new poster we have here! Right... a little harsh but hell, if it makes her see that she needs to take action, I suppose it's not such a bad thing. --Brian >>You're dumber than mud lady and can't even see it. Enjoy your >>impoverished, miserable life, especially that great big awakening >>you'll have in about 20 years when you realize you've thrown your life >>away on this loser. > > What a helpful new poster we have here! He's here to make us appreciative of AllYou! (...better the devil you know...) >>> You're dumber than mud lady and can't even see it. Enjoy your >>> impoverished, miserable life, especially that great big awakening [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > (...better the devil you know...) Thank Goodness, now for once I can come out in my true angelic colours.....! (i like that spellin!) > >>> You're dumber than mud lady and can't even see it. Enjoy your > >>> impoverished, miserable life, especially that great big awakening [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > colours.....! > (i like that spellin!) Chewy once had a prof who counted off on any papers where he used the European spelling of colour/color. Of all the things for which to count off points... Kitten >>>>> You're dumber than mud lady and can't even see it. Enjoy your >>>>> impoverished, miserable life, especially that great big awakening [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Kitten I once had a Chemistry prof who either docked me points, or wouldn't accept my homework (I can't remember which now - this was almost 40 years ago, when I was young and impressionable) - IF I wrote the lowercase letter "r" just as you see it here, rather than use the more cursive one (that looks like an inverted "u"). Can you believe that? That pisses me off! If I knew what I knew today, he'd better run and hide, cause I'd let him have it (figuratively speaking), and take HIM to task for that. > Exactly. I know that with all of this, there are no garauntees and > that scares me. As a child, I lived in a home where money was > extremely tight because of my alcoholic dad. [...] ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > However, I love this man SO much and I just don't know if I can just > walk away. What if he doesn't get better? What if I had stayed and he ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > would have? ^^^^^^^^^^ Geez, do you hear yourself??? -- Anita -- > OK, here's my suggestion. I know "Biff" won't like it, but "Biff" is > new to me, and totally negative in what I've seen posted thus far. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > only. The account you currently have can be designated for "mad > money," or whatever. Completely clueless. The wife is still responsible for the hubby's gambling debts and her account will be raided when bill time comes. Also, you're assuming that hubby wants to be helped. That doesn't appear to be the case here. I'm speaking from 20 years of my first marriage. If it's this broken now, bail it before you bring kids into the equation and get a decent man to partner with. I have no tolerance for gambling addicts. > > > Do I stay and hope that he gets better or do I cut my losses and get > > > out now? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I love him so much though. It is very sad. But eventually you can love someone else just as much. > And I feel like if I leave that I will have > given up on him and given up on my marriage. Sometimes that is the right thing to do. > What if I leave and this > really was the last time he ever does it? It won't be. Unless the fact of your leaving makes him realize he is ruining his life. If you stay, on the other hand, this _won't_ be the last time he ever does this. > I love him so much though. And I feel like if I leave that I will have > given up on him and given up on my marriage. What if I leave and this > really was the last time he ever does it? It's not the last time. Cut your losses. (Didn't you grow up with an alcoholic? Did you learn anything from that?) -- Anita -- > I am at a complete loss. I don't know what to do and I feel like my > entire life is falling apart. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > I love this man very much and I truly cannot imagine my life without > him in it. I think it is time to learn to do that imagining. You haven't been together that long - think about how much easier it is to call it quits now (and by the way, see a lawyer today so you can go about separating your finances and not be responsible for any further debt he incurs) than years from now when he accumulated a mountain of debt. > But, I can't live the rest of my life worrying about where > every cent we save is going. His gambling has now forced me to not [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Do I stay and hope that he gets better or do I cut my losses and get > out now? I don't know anything about addiction, but they talk about the addict needing to hit rock bottom before coming to grips with his problem. It sounds like he is nowhere near rock bottom, and nowhere near coming to grips. Is there a good reason why you should follow him down to that rock bottom? It is quite likely that your efforts to make things better will simply delay his reaching the point where he feels required to take action. My head knows that you are so right. My heart, however, still wants to give him a hug and tell him that we will work this out. My emotions are on a COMPLETE rollercoaster. One minute I am sad because I know this is something that he cannot control and that it really isn't his fault. The next minute I am raging mad because he still LIED to me. From the day we started dating, all I asked for was honesty. I just don't think that is asking to much. >My head knows that you are so right. My heart, however, still wants to >give him a hug and tell him that we will work this out. > >My emotions are on a COMPLETE rollercoaster. One minute I am sad >because I know this is something that he cannot control and that it >really isn't his fault. Huh? It's not his fault? Whose fault is it, then? HE is the one who is making the conscious decision, each and every time, to gamble away the money! Is it an addiction? Yes. Is it his fault? Yes. The next minute I am raging mad because he >still LIED to me. From the day we started dating, all I asked for was >honesty. I just don't think that is asking to much. Don't be to sure about that. Asking a liar to be honest IS asking too much of them. Sorry. I know I'm being harsh. But there is no excuse for his actions. Lauri in WA > I love this man very much and I truly cannot imagine my life without > him in it. But, I can't live the rest of my life worrying about where > every cent we save is going. Separate the finances. Sounds like you've done some of that already, and that he's honest enough about his problems to accept it. Keep it up. > His gambling has now forced me to not > have things that I have wanted...a husband that I can trust, a home, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I understand that gambling is just as much of an addicition as > alcoholism or drug abuse. Why did he stop going to GA? You should check out the groups for family members (I think it's called Al-Anon). As you say, the psychology of what happens with any addiction is the same, and so is what it does to spouses. They can probably give you specific help. He needs to be in a program. He can't just quit by being really sorry and making promises. > Do I stay and hope that he gets better or do I cut my losses and get > out now? He has a good chance of getting better with the help of others. None at all on his own, or just by hoping. - Randy He stopped going to GA because he said he was fine and that he had it all under control. I really thought he did. Honestly, I thought he did. I'm such an idiot to have believed him. I know that a program can help him, but what if he "falls off the wagon" again. Growing up, I saw my dad get on and off the wagon so much and I saw the sadness and disappointment in my mom each and every single time. I don't know if I can risk living the rest of my life this way. I'm only 23 and it seems like I would have to "babysit" him for forever...and I would still always be worried about the money. I mean, what if next time it is our children's college fund?? My heart has been so broken by what he has already done and I really, REALLY just don't think I would be able to take it mentally or emotionally if he ever does this to me again. When I went with him to the GA meetings last time, some of the guys in there said they have had to start the program over DOZENS of times. I know that I can't take going through all this DOZENS of more times. He stopped going to GA because he said he was fine and that he had it all under control. I really thought he did. Honestly, I thought he did. I'm such an idiot to have believed him. I know that a program can help him, but what if he "falls off the wagon" again. Growing up, I saw my dad get on and off the wagon so much and I saw the sadness and disappointment in my mom each and every single time. I don't know if I can risk living the rest of my life this way. I'm only 23 and it seems like I would have to "babysit" him for forever...and I would still always be worried about the money. I mean, what if next time it is our children's college fund?? My heart has been so broken by what he has already done and I really, REALLY just don't think I would be able to take it mentally or emotionally if he ever does this to me again. When I went with him to the GA meetings last time, some of the guys in there said they have had to start the program over DOZENS of times. I know that I can't take going through all this DOZENS of more times. How about keeping strict separate accounts (never become a guarantor in any of his liabilities, do not open any joint account, keep the house under your name only (same thing for the college fund ...) Explain him why, and that you may reconsider the question once he manages to build up a total net worth of at least let's say 20K. Let him know that if he accesses one of your account (without your permission indeed), you'll leave him, and if he do so, LEAVE HIM. I also wouldn't rush into having kids, marriage .... Those things could adversally affect you if he chooses to remain loyal to his casinos rather than to you. Just make sure that he can go into bankruptcy as often as he wants to without hurting your wealth. PS: That is only based on the financial side. If he becomes abusive, violant ... LEAVE HIM, regardless of how your finances look like > He stopped going to GA because he said he was fine and that he had it > all under control. I really thought he did. Honestly, I thought he [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > there said they have had to start the program over DOZENS of times. I > know that I can't take going through all this DOZENS of more times. Thank you for the advice. However, I just feel like doing all of that says "I do not trust you." How can you be married to someone you don't trust? And the lies? If he lies about the gambling, is he lying about anything else? Should I have to give him an allowance like a 10-year old? I truly love this man. But he makes it so hard on me. Why did he lie? Because he was scared of your reaction, he felt guilty. Yep, it's really tought. If he thinks that it's ok to gamble, he would tell you. You act as a "policemen on duty" in the house (in his perspective), and that scares him. I guess that he should be able to gamble with his own money (coming from his own income), and face the consequences. It could be ok, since it wouldn't hurt your finances. If he's not 100% dumb, he would try to do domething about it after he first go thru bankruptcy. If you have an attitude "it's your own life, do whatever you want with it" and don't have any ironic or repressive statement when he speaks about gaming, he could trust you again, and speak openly about that. Hopefully, eventually, he could speak to you about that and be open to the point that he would turn to you to help him come out of that (that would only occur when he realizes on his own that he needs to stop that, so not right now). Btw, he needs to realize it on his own (NOT agreeing with you, if he agrees with you, he will only appear to want to do something about it and but that will also make him want to gamble as soon as you're not around - he would be excited to do what is forbidden) (still, don't rush into having kids) > Thank you for the advice. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I truly love this man. But he makes it so hard on me. Btw, don't give him an allowance, he needs to gamble with his hard earned money. When he looses money he shouldn't think "oh well, I lost the free money my wife gave me", he sould think "oh shoot, I lost one month of salary, I spent one month working in this stupid job, for what?? I lost it all by gaming for a few hours" He must find a job, if that means working in a factory, so will it be, if the job is hard, that will help him understand what "hard earned money" is . Don't give him any kind of money, don't pay his bills ... (the rent, electricity ... may be under your name) He has to learn what money is, and that in real life, money doesn't come and go. Real money isn't monopoly money, it's not a game. You have to work hard to earn it, and then the only want to become rich is by spending much less money than you make. Those seem to be basic principles that he don't get. And he won't get them just by hearing them, he needs to learn by himself. > Thank you for the advice. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I truly love this man. But he makes it so hard on me. Also, do you gamble yourself??? It seems that it is a good hobby for him. And that is currently creating a division between the two of you. That hobby is separating the two of you. So, I would suggest you to propose him to go to a casino (he'll go there anyway, so why wouldn't you spent time together, and it can actually become an acceptable hobby). Ask him a casino with a good payout ratio (i.e. amount given back to players per $100 bet). If he doesn't have a clue, one that double your bet at Blackjack (by beating the dealer without having a blackjack), or double your bet when you get a color right at roulette. Go there with him, bring $100 of your money. If you loose it, stop playing. If you're in the green (even by $1), stop playing. I actually used to do that using games that have almost a 50% chance to double your bet (e.g. roulette, black jack), I would bet the minimum amount (e.g. $1), if I lose, I double it ($2, $4 ...). You have a very good chance of winning, but if you loose, you lose it all (stop at $100). Ideally, once you have your $101, stop playing and enjoy the decor/fountain/free show/free drinks. The problem with that is that you may quickly stop, so you may alternativelly continue on the penny machines. Before playing, you can also spend time discussing with him what the different game/machines are, that is time spent together without money being gone. Once you stop, if he wants to continue, be neither supportive nor critical. Go with a "it's your life, you do what you want", without making it sound ironical. If you are supportive, he may think that it's ok to waste money (you may tell him the difference between gambling and wasting money, but speak in general terms, or refering to your own behavior ; do not refer to his behavior ; do not refer to your behavior in opposition to his) If you are critical, he will think that you are the policeman again. He's not ready for that. Remember, he has to figure it out on his own. While you show him that you can gamble while being money consentious, don't focus too much on that. You should also show him that you have fun and you can share a common hobby. Ask him the rules of those games and seem interested by that when he speaks. PS: Forget what I said about online casinos, it ssems that it's not a priority so far (and would reinforce your role of policemen), you may tell him later, when he tries to recover. On top of that, it's easier to gamble online, which means that it's more dangerous. Gook luck (it's a long road, not everybody would manage to take it, but I think it is one of the few ways to keep your marriage without running insane or poor), Olivier > Btw, don't give him an allowance, he needs to gamble with his hard > earned money. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > > > I truly love this man. But he makes it so hard on me. > Also, do you gamble yourself??? > > It seems that it is a good hobby for him. And that is currently > creating a division between the two of you. That hobby is separating > the two of you. If by "good hobby" you mean one that will eventually cost him all of his worldly goods, his marriage, his friendships and his family. At first I thought you were joking, then read your instructions below. They may be sensible for a recreational gambler. Not for a compuslive gambler who has already needed to be bailed out by his family numerous times. > > Also, do you gamble yourself??? > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > compuslive gambler who has already needed to be bailed out by his > family numerous times. I agree with you. I don't think going with him or sitting there at the computer next to him would help things AT ALL. That's like going up to someone with a meth problem and saying, "Look, you have to stop this. But for now, here's just a little to ween you off. Hey, I'll even do it with you!" And, no, I do not gamble. I would say : Get out and divorce, anything you do will make him perceive you as a policeman. He's not ready to change, and staying with him would only elarge the gap between the two of you. I have gambled irresonably while I was a teen ( I was if France, it's legal there ) ( $1000, gift from religious communion - which is a hudge amount considered the money I had as a kid, probably the equivalent of an annual income ) ; I had issues and thought that lottery was a way to solve them. (I'm 25 now) Actually, I think that I stopped slowly. I played on online when the internet came by. I keep playing, even now, and am reasonable about it. I think that an alcoholic can drink reasonably after a while ... But I doubt that KatieNeedsALotOfHelp and her husband would manage to recreate some kind of trust in their marriage. She thinks he is guilty. And as a result, he thinks that she is the policeman in the house, and tries to hide from her. That can only elarge the gap between the two of you. KatieNeedsALotOfHelp, I'm not blaming you, most people would behave the same way. I would only say: get out and divorce. PS: Now that I think about it, I always gambled to make money, which may be a crutial difference between me and your husband. > > > Also, do you gamble yourself??? > > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > And, no, I do not gamble. > Also, do you gamble yourself??? > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Olivier Oliver, excuse me for being so blunt, but you are a jackass. When someone has a gambling addiction, they can't turn it on or off. They can't just gamble a little bit and get away with it. If you know nothing of the disease, why do you even bother giving advice? Allowing him to gamble a little, or doing it yourself to make it "okay" is enabeling his addiction. --Brian Since you know the stuff, tell me WHY does he gamble? Also, and more importantly, how can she save her marriage? > > Also, do you gamble yourself??? > > [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > --Brian olwag...@netcourrier.com wrote: > Since you know the stuff, tell me WHY does he gamble? > Also, and more importantly, how can she save her marriage? [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > > > --Brian Look, top poster. The question was never "why does he gamble." There is no way for any of us to know that. Why does someone get addicted to drugs? Why do some of us end up gay? Some of us become serial killers. You ask a question like that you'll get 100 different answers, most if not all are probably irrelevant. He's the only person who knows why he gambles and if he doesn't, only he can find out by seeking the help of a professional. The point is, her marriage is DOA unless she takes control of the situation now. I'm not suggesting a irreversible divorce. But, she does need to get out, cut herself off of this man financially, and protect her finances. He needs to see what his illness is costing him and then seek help if he so chooses. Once that happens, it's up to her to pursue a relationship with him. Enabling him to gamble or trying to control the gambling is just stupid stupid stupid and WILL NOT WORK. She may very well chose to do this but in the end, he's running the risk of coming home and finding their possessions GONE. I've known people who were so bad off they gambled their vehicle titles, portions of their 401K, and yes, even equity in their houses. A guy who was also an alcoholic who knew my father during his recovery was in Vegas and made a phone call and borrowed $50,000 in equity on his home and lost it in one night. A freaking 30 year loan for one night of gambling. This is NOT something to play around with and God help her if she follows your uninformative advice. --Brian So, for the most part, we agree: He needs to realize the importance of his actions. Please note that I repeatidly stated that she needed to separate herself financially from him in order to remain save the situation. > olwag...@netcourrier.com wrote: > > Since you know the stuff, tell me WHY does he gamble? [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > > --Brian olwag...@netcourrier.com wrote: > So, for the most part, we agree: He needs to realize the importance of > his actions. [quoted text clipped - 94 lines] > > > > --Brian But then you also followed that up by suggesting she try and "teach" him how to gamble a little at a time. That's just not possible with "most" who suffer with that type of illness. -Brian > Since you know the stuff, tell me WHY does he gamble? > Also, and more importantly, how can she save her marriage? She probably can't. That said, then, if she's going to end up divorced anyway, is it better to do so before there are children and while she's young, healthy, and in a good position to find somebody else - or to wait until after there are children or when she's at an age when it is harder to find somebody else.... >> > Also, do you gamble yourself??? >> > [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] >> >> --Brian >> Also, do you gamble yourself??? >> [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > him to gamble a little, or doing it yourself to make it "okay" is > enabeling his addiction. It's not a disease. I'm really sick and tired of people claiming disease for every situation wherein people can't exercise self-control. Look, I'm not denying that there might be some physical component to the urge to gamble, but I think your advice here is dangerous and not very helpful at all. > >> Also, do you gamble yourself??? > >> [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > component to the urge to gamble, but I think your advice here is > dangerous and not very helpful at all. I agree we are an over diagnosed society, but in the situation of compulsive gambling, it really is sensless to argue if it's a clinical disease or not. Regardless of what causes someone to lose all self control, it should be treated the same way for the sake of the original poster. --Brian >> >> Also, do you gamble yourself??? >> >> [quoted text clipped - 116 lines] > original > poster. I disagree. Calling it a disease allows the OP to believe that the condition is beyond his control except to the extent that he allows others to help him. This is simply too passive an approach if he's going to get over it. He's got to know that self-control IS the primary solution to his problem, and that means deciding to take control of his life, and take control of his arm when he wants to pick up the phone and dial his bookie (metaphorically speaking). Sure, drugs and counseling can help, but in the end, it'll come down to will power. > >> >> Also, do you gamble yourself??? > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 120 lines] > condition is beyond his control except to the extent that he allows > others to help him. OK so far. > This is simply too passive an approach if he's > going to get over it. This is where people without exposure 12-step programs get it wrong. It's simply incorrect. The passive thing is to say "oh, I can just tough it out, I can do this on my own." The active thing is to make and keep promises, to enroll in a program, to take specific steps, to start having self-monitoring and self-reporting be a priority in your life. You do that by going to a program, by doing the ACTIVE things they recommend, by ACTIVELY committing time to the program, by worrying about and working on the program every minute of every day. Your approach leads to an "active" approach of basically using hope and wishful thinking as a recovery method, and no tools, no benefits of the experience of anyone else who's managed to recover, re-inventing the wheel or much more likely just ignoring the whole business and getting worse and worse. Eventually with the wishful-thinking method, you just take longer to get so far down in your life (loss of wife, loss of friends, loss of home, loss of job) and only THEN decide you've had enough and enroll in the program you should have done in the first place. > He's got to know that self-control IS the > primary solution to his problem, and that means deciding to take > control of his life, and take control of his arm when he wants to pick > up the phone and dial his bookie (metaphorically speaking). Sure, > drugs and counseling can help, but in the end, it'll come down to will > power. AA came from a bunch of drunks getting together, keeping what worked, throwing out what didn't. It's entirely based on empirical tests of what works. I respect that a lot more than wishful-thinking theories. Your "pep talk", from empirical experience, leads straight to the gutter. Wishful thinking doesn't cut it. - Randy >> >> >> Also, do you gamble yourself??? >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 191 lines] > Your "pep talk", from empirical experience, leads > straight to the gutter. Wishful thinking doesn't cut it. Which is why I never recommended it. If having others tell him that in the end, it's all about self-control, and if there are techniques which he can employ to help him with that, fine. But in the end, it does come down to self control, and not a belief that it's out of his control. > > AA came from a bunch of drunks getting together, > > keeping what worked, throwing out what didn't. It's [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > does come down to self control, and not a belief that it's out of his > control. See, but what you're doing is (1) characterizing 12-step programs with your personal theory, and then (2) dismissing them out of hand as that they can't possibly work. Since they do in fact work (they have a good track record of success for people who keep with them, then either (1) your characterization or (2) your theory of what doesn't work is wrong. - Randy >> > AA came from a bunch of drunks getting together, >> > keeping what worked, throwing out what didn't. It's [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > with your personal theory, and then (2) dismissing them out of > hand as that they can't possibly work. I never once referred to any program of any kind. That's all in your head. All I said was that if there is a program that reinforces the notion that it's all about self-control, and if there are techniques which he can employ to help him realize that, then that's great. Now if the 12 step program to which YOU refer does those things, then I'm all for it. But you are the one referring to a specific program, not me. > Since they do in fact work (they have a good track record of success > for people who keep with them, then either (1) your characterization > or > (2) your theory of what doesn't work is wrong. That's quite an amazing conclusion whereas I never referred to any specific program at all. > > See, but what you're doing is (1) characterizing 12-step programs > > with your personal theory, and then (2) dismissing them out of > > hand as that they can't possibly work. > > I never once referred to any program of any kind. That's all in your > head. Well, perhaps I misunderstood your response, which sounds an awful lot like cliche rants I've heard a hundred times from people who read a statement like this: "Step 1. We admitted we were powerless over X-that our lives had become unmanageable." and then go off on uninformed rants about "how dare they say powerless? All you need is self control." I'm talking about programs that start there. Perhaps you aren't. If so, I'm misreading you. But I suspect you are. - Randy >> > See, but what you're doing is (1) characterizing 12-step programs >> > with your personal theory, and then (2) dismissing them out of [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > But I suspect you are. I suspect that you're sensitivity and prejudices are impairing your judgment. > >> >> >> Also, do you gamble yourself??? > >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 197 lines] > does come down to self control, and not a belief that it's out of his > control. Shouldn't someone try to get to the reason why he gambles? Isn't it usually the result of larger problems? It's not just a lack of self control that causes someone to gamble away their house. Then again, I suppose the same could be said with food addictions. --Brian >> >> >> >> Also, do you gamble yourself??? >> >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 236 lines] > I > suppose the same could be said with food addictions. The same could be said of any repetitive, destructive action. Of course there are reasons for it. Of course self-examination will help. Of course the support of others will help, as long as it's support, and not enabling. But as you've hinted, that's true of any attempt to break a bad habit. But at the end of all of those, it all comes down to taking control of your own life and exercising self-restraint. It comes down to will power, and any "support" which allows the subject to forget or dismiss that simple concept is not supportive, but enabling of his behavior. (snip) > Shouldn't someone try to get to the reason why he gambles? Isn't it > usually the result of larger problems? It's not just a lack of self > control that causes someone to gamble away their house. Then again, I > suppose the same could be said with food addictions. Someone probably should. The difficulty is the only someone who can do that is him. Yes, maybe others could help him, but not unless he was really on board with wanting help. > >> >> Also, do you gamble yourself??? > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 126 lines] > drugs and counseling can help, but in the end, it'll come down to will > power. Okay... It was my understanding that it was but I'll concede the fact that it would be better to refer to it as an addiction. And I will also agree that anyone who is addicted has the ability to beat that addiction be it heroine, gambling, booze...whatever. My advice to her wasn't really meant to cure him, I was directing it at what her actions should be to protect herself. She has no control over him beating his addiction. She should simply take measures to protect herself financially and pepare herself for the fact that he may never learn to control it. --Brian >> >> >> Also, do you gamble yourself??? >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 162 lines] > to > control it. I agree. By the way, I'M NOT SAYING IT'S GOING TO BE EASY and a lot of people (probably including myself) would have just left the guy (in this case, he would have to face his own liabilities anyway). IT'S GOING TO BE DIFFICULT. But if you want to keep him, I think that my ideas make sense. > Thank you for the advice. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I truly love this man. But he makes it so hard on me. >Thank you for the advice. > >However, I just feel like doing all of that says "I do not trust you." Well, DO you trust him? If you do, you're a fool. He's an addict... and, as you should know, having grown up in an alcoholic household, addicts will lie to anyone and about anything if it feeds their addiction. Does that mean that he doesn't love you or that he would cheat or that he's lying about other things? No, not necessarily. But can you trust him about this? Hell, no, and the sooner that you stop kidding yourself that you can, the better off you'll be. Can you be married to someone you can't trust? Maybe you can, and maybe he's serious about change... but it's more likely that he'll relapse than that he won't, and so you have to be prepared for that, and you have to make choices with your eyes wide open to that probability. And while you're at it... consider counseling, for you. Go to something like Al-Anon, and learn about some of the patterns of growing up in alcoholic households that probably were, in part, responsible for leading you to this relationship and keeping you in it. > Thank you for the advice. > > However, I just feel like doing all of that says "I do not trust you." But you don't trust him, do you? He's already gambled away savings, and lied about it. Then he gambled away money to pay bills, borrowed the money back from his mother, lied to *her* about why he needed the money, borrowed the money to hide the gambling from you, and then LIED to you AGAIN about the gambling. He's given you no reason *to* trust him. And so you shouldn't. > How can you be married to someone you don't trust? And the lies? If > he lies about the gambling, is he lying about anything else? Should I > have to give him an allowance like a 10-year old? No. See an attorney, protect your own finances and credit rating, and find out what your rights are. Have a trial separation, and get a formal separation agreement. The condition of reconciling to be that he attends GA, and keeps attending GA. My mother is a recovered alcoholic, 12 years dry. She *still* goes to two AA meetings a week and sees her therapist monthly. > I truly love this man. But he makes it so hard on me. So, you have to show him what he has at stake by continuing to 1) gamble, 2) cover up his gambling and 3) lie to you. Period. Stevie Sorry, I didn't read your whole post. Anyway, structure your finances so that he can go into bankruptcy as often as he wants without hurting your finances. Also, tell him that besides the difficulty to define the appropriate juridiction regulating online gambling (Caribeans or place where gambler lives), US officials are doing their best to make it under US juridiction, as such that would be illegal gambling. Such liabilities would therefore be considered as liabilities incurred thru fraud, and those liabilities cannot be erases thru bankruptcy. olwag...@netcourrier.com wrote: > How about keeping strict separate accounts (never become a guarantor in > any of his liabilities, do not open any joint account, keep the house [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > there said they have had to start the program over DOZENS of times. I > > know that I can't take going through all this DOZENS of more times. Sorry, I didn't read your whole post. Anyway, structure your finances so that he can go into bankruptcy as often as he wants without hurting your finances. Also, tell him that besides the difficulty to define the appropriate juridiction regulating online gambling (Caribeans or place where gambler lives), US officials are doing their best to make it under US juridiction, as such that would be illegal gambling. Such liabilities would therefore be considered as liabilities incurred thru fraud, and those liabilities cannot be erased thru bankruptcy. olwag...@netcourrier.com wrote: > How about keeping strict separate accounts (never become a guarantor in > any of his liabilities, do not open any joint account, keep the house [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > there said they have had to start the program over DOZENS of times. I > > know that I can't take going through all this DOZENS of more times. > How about keeping strict separate accounts (never become a guarantor in > any of his liabilities, do not open any joint account, keep the house [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Just make sure that he can go into bankruptcy as often as he wants to > without hurting your wealth. Is it actually possible for a married couple to do that? Can she shelter her assets from his gambling liabilities in a legal bombproof way? Yes, it is possible, you just need a marriage contract defining that and then make sure you don't have joint liabilities. It's not that uncommon. A lot of business owners do that so that if the business goes under, they can can remain afloat. > > How about keeping strict separate accounts (never become a guarantor in > > any of his liabilities, do not open any joint account, keep the house [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > shelter her assets from his gambling liabilities in a legal bombproof > way? > Yes, it is possible, you just need a marriage contract defining that > and then make sure you don't have joint liabilities. Well, I'll take your word for it that this is possible. In any case, it should be a subject of conversation between the OP and her lawyer because certainly the details depend on where they live, and it is likely to be more involved than merely putting assets in her name. You are suggesting she needs a specific sort of marriage contract - it is perhaps too late for that! (Also I wonder if that is a misunderstanding on your part of the role of assets or liabilities brought into a marriage as opposed to assets or liabilities accumulated during the course of a marriage.) > It's not that uncommon. A lot of business owners do that so that if the > business goes under, they can can remain afloat. Well, with a business there is a standard tack which is to incorporate the business. This doesn't necessarily protect the owner from all liabilities, but it makes the business itself a separate legal entity. >From : http://www.halverson-law.com/pn_intro.htm The parties may define as separate assets not only those which each of them brings into the marriage, and the proceeds or earnings therefrom, but additionally they may define as separate property the earnings of either or both parties during the marriage. > > Yes, it is possible, you just need a marriage contract defining that > > and then make sure you don't have joint liabilities. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > the business. This doesn't necessarily protect the owner from all > liabilities, but it makes the business itself a separate legal entity. > >From : http://www.halverson-law.com/pn_intro.htm > > The parties may define as separate assets not only those which each of > them brings into the marriage, and the proceeds or earnings therefrom, > but additionally they may define as separate property the earnings of > either or both parties during the marriage. You do realize that you are quoting a pre-nup, and that the OP is already married, right? So although this is mildly interesting, it is not at all relevant. > > Yes, it is possible, you just need a marriage contract defining that > > and then make sure you don't have joint liabilities. > > Well, I'll take your word for it that this is possible. Actually, I think olwagner is mistaken. It is certainly not possible in California, for example, to simply define assets as non-marital just because you decide to. You can't even disinherit your spouse in a lot of states. Contracts don't operate in marriage like they do in business. >>Yes, it is possible, you just need a marriage contract defining that >>and then make sure you don't have joint liabilities. > > Well, I'll take your word for it that this is possible. I really doubt that it is (I have gotten the impression that Wagner is 25 years old, not a lawyer, not married, and possibly not resident in the US). However, even if she were able to protect certain limited accounts (college savings, personal retirement funds, etc.), the fact that he is gambling away a significant portion of HIS income and screwing up HIS credit will undoubtedly have a serious negative effect on their marital finances and disposible income, whether or not she is able to shield certain assets from debt collectors and/or bankruptcy proceedings. Protecting a college savings fund for kids they don't have is the least of her worries. The ability to buy a house, on the other hand, is. It doesn't matter if she is able to funnel off savings into a protected account for a downpayment if she's no longer able to save anything because his income is going to pay off a debt, and if she can't qualify for a mortgage in her area on her income alone. It doesn't matter if he's giving all his income to the casinos, or to homeless orphans in Tibet...it's going to have an impact on their joint finances! Anyone who would say "he should be able to gamble with his own money (coming from his own income), ... it wouldn't hurt your finances" doesn't sound like someone who's had experiences with marital finances. > It doesn't matter if he's giving all his income to the casinos, or to > homeless orphans in Tibet...it's going to have an impact on their joint > finances! Anyone who would say "he should be able to gamble with his own > money (coming from his own income), ... it wouldn't hurt your finances" > doesn't sound like someone who's had experiences with marital finances. Precisely. And my question is, should I have to do that? Should I have to have special accounts that he can't have access to? I just feel like is still keeping something from him. I mean, this is the man I chose to be my HUSBAND. Should I have to live my life so gaurded and not be able to share EVERYTHING with him (including my money)? I guess I just saw my life so differently and now it is spiraling out of control and I just can't stop it. [snip] >I guess I just saw my life so differently and now it is spiraling out >of control and I just can't stop it. You can -- you've chosen not to so far. Barb > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Barb I guess I just don't have the confidence yet to do what I so desperately need to do. I'm not happy and I know that I am too young and too smart to be in this deep ALREADY. But leaving is just so much easier said than done, you know? > > [snip] > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > and too smart to be in this deep ALREADY. But leaving is just so much > easier said than done, you know? I believe that. But, consider the gambling metaphor. You've invested a lot (emotionally, and at this point probably financially) in this relationship. It sounds to me like you've lost this investment, but you are hoping that if you invest _more_, you might win it back. I don't much like your odds for that. The phrase "throwing good money after bad" comes to mind, and I'm not just thinking about the money. You are so right. I was reading earlier this morning that only 3% of compulsive gamblers completely stop. That scares me to death. I'm just so worried because since the crap hit the fan, he has turned into Super Husband. He has been helping me with the laundry and going to the grocery store and he is sending me flowers and cards telling me how much he loves me and I so badly just want to tell him I'll be there to help him through all of this. But when he did this before, he was Super Fiancee for a couple of months and then it went back to the same old thing. I know he is begging me to stay, and there is no question in my mind that he loves me more than life itself, and I do want to stay, but this just can't be healthy for me. I mean, my God, this has me so worked up that I seriously can't function. I sit at my desk and cry all day and yesterday I even broke out in HIVES!! I just don't know what to do. > You are so right. I was reading earlier this morning that only 3% of > compulsive gamblers completely stop. That scares me to death. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > in my mind that he loves me more than life itself, and I do want to > stay, but this just can't be healthy for me. Does he love you more than gambling? Is he really willing to stop? If he doesn't get outside help the answer is "no". It's as simple as that, same as any addiction. - Randy >I know he is begging me to stay, and there is no question >in my mind that he loves me more than life itself, But he doesn't, does he? He chose gambling over you and the future before, and I'd be willing bet a whole lot that he'll do it again. (And I'm not much of a gambler; I only make bets that I'm VERY sure I'll win.) >>[snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > and too smart to be in this deep ALREADY. But leaving is just so much > easier said than done, you know? It's never easy to jump off a moving train, but it's still easier than crawling out of the twisted wreckage after it crashes into that mountain you see looming ahead. You contemplate jumping, and it seems so scary...part of you wants to believe that maybe you can steer the train in a different direction, but the truth is you do not have the power to make it change its course. [snip] >I guess I just don't have the confidence yet to do what I so >desperately need to do. I'm not happy and I know that I am too young >and too smart to be in this deep ALREADY. But leaving is just so much >easier said than done, you know? Yep. Been there, done that. It took me nearly 20 years -- I hope you don't take that long. And I hope you find your way to one of the Alanon programs. You'll find help there. Barb > I guess I just don't have the confidence yet to do what I so > desperately need to do. I'm not happy and I know that I am too young > and too smart to be in this deep ALREADY. But leaving is just so much > easier said than done, you know? I don't know what you want from us. You have rebuttal answers for every single point about leaving him, so why are you here? You have already decided to stay with him. Just one more thing and I am staying out of this thread because I can't bear to see you throw your life away. DH's uncle Don was a recreational gambler and he has always said "never gamble with more than you are willing to lose". You are gambling with your life. -- Anita -- > I guess I just saw my life so differently and now it is spiraling out > of control and I just can't stop it. Gee, sounds like something your mom might've said eh? Think of it this way: Your lack of fortitude to severe this mess will most assuredly doom your children to the same existence you now loathe. >> It doesn't matter if he's giving all his income to the casinos, or to >> homeless orphans in Tibet...it's going to have an impact on their joint [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I guess I just saw my life so differently and now it is spiraling out >of control and I just can't stop it. Katie, there's something that you just have to accept here, and that's the truth of what you say in that last sentence. This is NOT the way that you planned your life, and there is absolutely nothing that you can do that will make it the way that you planned. Your husband is not who/what you thought he was. That doesn't mean that he isn't a terrific person, or that you don't love him, or that you shouldn't stay with him. But it's not going to be the way that you thought it was. If you can accept that and figure out how to deal with the way it IS, without regretting what isn't, then maybe there's a point to trying to work it out somehow. Otherwise, you would be far better off getting out and starting over while you can, because you will never, ever have the relationship that you imagined with this person. And all you'll do is follow a second best path full of bitter regret, all the while trying to keep your head above water financially. > Yes, it is possible, you just need a marriage contract defining that > and then make sure you don't have joint liabilities. Maybe that is true where you live - but I don't think it is true everywhere. I had the impression that Katie lives in the U.S., and as far as I know (and I am NOT a lawyer) this is not true here. I'd be interested to hear from anybody that knows differently, though. I do know that when I was divorcing, I was told that I was financially liable for pretty much any stupid thing my then-husband now-ex did - and that the only way out of that was to be legally divorced. >> Yes, it is possible, you just need a marriage contract defining that >> and then make sure you don't have joint liabilities. > > Maybe that is true where you live - but I don't think it is true everywhere. > I had the impression that Katie lives in the U.S., and as far as I know (and > I am NOT a lawyer) Praise the Lord.... > > How about keeping strict separate accounts (never become a guarantor in > > any of his liabilities, do not open any joint account, keep the house [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > shelter her assets from his gambling liabilities in a legal bombproof > way? Depends on the state I suppose. I believe a legal separation would do it if she doesn't want to get divorced right away. > mean, what if next time it is our children's college fund?? How do you have a college fund if you have no money? -- Anita -- > > mean, what if next time it is our children's college fund?? > > How do you have a college fund if you have no money? > > -- Anita -- I meant in the future, if we were able to save up and get back on our feet and all that. > I am at a complete loss. I don't know what to do and I feel like my > entire life is falling apart. [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > Thank you to anyone who takes the time to read all of this or leave me > advice. I've not read through the 19 other replies yet, but know this. My father is an alcoholic and while he's been sober for over 15 years, he wasn't when I was very young. It's the reason why my mother left him. She didn't want me raised around that sort of thing but it nearly killed her to leave. You can't make him change by doing anything except for making him face his problems. You need to go. Maybe that will drive him to seek help, maybe it won't. He's sick and he needs to realize that and get treatment. If he won't, there is NOTHING you can do. It's not easy, but it is simple. What you REALLY need to do is stop thinking that you love him less my leaving. My mother never stopped loving my father. 1, she knew she didn't want her son growing up around that, and 2, she knew that maybe it would force him into dealing with his problems. She would rather have him alive and healthy, if it meant they couldn't be together. Stick around and try seeking support yourself. I used to go to some Alanon meetings.. I'm sure they have similar ones for those with loved ones in GA. They never helped me much since most of the people there were physically abused and that just wast me.... but you may get something out of them. --Brian [snip] >I've not read through the 19 other replies yet, but know this. My >father is an alcoholic and while he's been sober for over 15 years, he [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >were physically abused and that just wast me.... but you may get >something out of them. Building on Brian's post, but taking into consideration Nina's as well -- I also grew up in an alcoholic home. A couple of additional points: - Those of us who grew up with an alcohlic/addict are much more likely to marry one as well (raising my hand). To this day, I will tell you that addicts are among the most beautiful, sensitive people in the world -- and I truly believe that. At the same time, I understand that my history makes me more likely to tolerate the crap that goes along with that. ACA (Alanon -- Adult Children of Alcoholics) helped me a lot in understanding this dynamic. It took many years, though, to change it. - If your husband is serious about changing (and I agree with others that his actions don't indicate this to be true), getting well will and must become his primary focus -- before your relationship, before anything else. As much as we may wish our addicts to reach this stage, those of us who love them can find this stage of recovery extremely challenging. - There is nothing you can do to "fix" this. As Brian said, sometimes the best thing you can do is just stand by and watch the train wreck. Your history makes you much more comfortable with jumping in and "saving" him -- and it's an instinct you must fight against. This may mean that you need to leave and allow him to reach his own personal bottom. Katie, you have my heartfelt sympathy. I understand how you can love someone who is on the self-destructive path of addiction because I have, too. I hope for him that he can find his way to recovery; and I hope for you that you can realize that leaving him can be the greatest gift you can give him in recognizing his problem. Barb > I understand that gambling is just as much of an addicition as > alcoholism or drug abuse. I also know that a lot of the other ways he > has changed result from his gambling. However, I don't know if I can > stay and let him continue to disappoint me and break my heart over and > over again. I would not stay with an addict. I can't tell you what to do, though. You might find help in alanon or whatever is similar for relatives of gamblers. > Do I stay and hope that he gets better or do I cut my losses and get > out now? > > Thank you to anyone who takes the time to read all of this or leave me > advice. Having read your post and a lot of the ensuing answers, my suggestion would be to move out, sign a separation agreement (which spells out that debt incurred after the filing would be his alone) and then continue to see one another, if you like. Give it a year. If he really wants the marriage to work, he will give you access to his books so that you can see, for yourself, what he is doing with his money. If he is unwilling to do this, there isn't much point in continuing on. Or, you might not want to invest such time in the relationship. But, if you want to try, this might be a good approach. Sheila >> Do I stay and hope that he gets better or do I cut my losses and get >> out now? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Or, you might not want to invest such time in the relationship. But, if > you want to try, this might be a good approach. Seems like I remember a poster a while back who actually divorced her husband, but kept on either living with him or dating him, don't recall which - strictly in order to protect herself from some financial consequences. >Seems like I remember a poster a while back who actually divorced her >husband, but kept on either living with him or dating him, don't recall >which - strictly in order to protect herself from some financial >consequences. My best friend did this. Her ex was a drug and booze addict. She wanted to divorce him because he was ruining her financially but she didn't have the heart to kick him to the curb so he stayed in the spare bedroom for a couple of years. It was only when he passed out after putting bacon on to fry and nearly burned the house down that she finally had enough and kicked him out. Lauri in WA >Do I stay and hope that he gets better or do I cut my losses and get >out now? \ Well, I know what I'd do. He's a liar and a gambler and lethargic. I'd cut my losses and learn from the lesson. But that's just me. Lauri in WA Katie, you are 23 years old, you have no kids yet, you haven't invested a wad of your life in this marriage, you can start again. I'm an old broad (50). I'm mom of three, and actually very conservative when it comes to marriage, but my heart and soul advice - walk away, walk away, walk away. Love isn't going to fix this. This is a real intractable addiction he's got. You are never going to be able to trust him. Right now its disappointing and hurtful, but nothing like it will be when he falls off the wagon when you have a couple of kids and you find out the bank is foreclosing on your house, or your retirement funds, or the kids college funds are up in smoke. You could in theory put yourself in the position of managing all the money, but is that anyway to live - like you are his mom or his jailer? He doesn't even really acknowledge that he has a problem, he has lied to you repeatedly, he has no conscience - he's even lied to his mother and manipulated her to get money to hide his tracks. My brother has addiction problems, and I've watched this stuff first hand. Hon, he's not ashamed at all, he's just sorry he's been caught. This is a hugely troubled person, and the red flags were there before you married him - I'm hoping someone you love advised you to hold off on marriage for a while and romantic hooey just carried you away from your good sense. Don't be naive about what is up with him, or what lies ahead. Listen to your gut which is talking to you big time. Learn from this and move on. Life is rough, junk happens - but you can't set sail with a partner who is not a partner. He'll cut and run on you when things get tough - and those patches happen to everyone. Yes, this is painful - however, you can get over this, you will live, you will love again. You need a PARTNER in life, not a little boy, and all the love in the world won't magically make him into someone else. You are in love with a fantasy, not a real person. The real person is the guy who is a lier, a thief, a cheat, a manipulator - and heck, it doesn't even sound like there is much of a love life there....and it ain't even 6 months after the white lace fever. Whats to save, other than your illusions, and you are already into the overtime innings with them, and you are working hard to pretend he's still Prince Charming. I mean, whats to love and admire here? Seriously, fast forward 20 years into a future with him. It makes me depressed just picturing it. Get on out, get some counselling, start over. Mary >I am at a complete loss. I don't know what to do and I feel like my > entire life is falling apart. I've been reading your posts. Your situation is classic ACOA (Adult Children of Alcoholics). Have you gotten professional help for yourself? I would be obvious to anyone with experience in this domain to see that the reason you are still with this person is because of your own unresolved issues. Please get help. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ACOA |
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