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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / September 2006low libido
My wife of 7 years and I have sex about once every 4 to 6 weeks. She says she does not have a sex drive but will masturbate at least once a week. She will also lie about it. I don't understand if she does not have a sex drive why she would masturbate. And yes, she does have orgasms when we have sex and says, "see how much better it is when we do it once a month." I physically can't handle it. Suggestions please. Geez, thats like my condition, only, I don't even masturbate!!!! I can understand that you might be upset... my husband is.... What I can say is, try to give her some space and not force her for anything... Try to talk to her about this and why she doesnt what it or if there is anything you can do to make it change.... > My wife of 7 years and I have sex about once every 4 to 6 weeks. She > says she does not have a sex drive but will masturbate at least once a > week. She will also lie about it. I don't understand if she does not > have a sex drive why she would masturbate. And yes, she does have > orgasms when we have sex and says, "see how much better it is when we > do it once a month." I physically can't handle it. Suggestions please. Thanks! I was told to back off and I tried this. But time goes by even longer without it. Very frustrating. > Geez, thats like my condition, only, I don't even masturbate!!!! I can > understand that you might be upset... my husband is.... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > orgasms when we have sex and says, "see how much better it is when we > > do it once a month." I physically can't handle it. Suggestions please. Hmm, maybe she has a problem that she hesitates to share with you.... or I donno, wants something more romantic... I'm just guessing these.... Seriously, the best option seems like talking to her in order to figure out what keeps her from wanting sex... littleducklin19 said: > Hmm, maybe she has a problem that she > hesitates to share with you.... or I > dunno, wants something more romantic... > I'm just guessing these.... Given the other posts in the thread from the OP, it sounds like she had cosmetic work to "feel more desirable"... and, at the same time, figures she needs more than someone she already has on a string. Hell, for all we know, he didn't show "enough" (FSVO "enough") desire for her UNTIL she had the cosmetic work done, and was offended by this. I dunno, but you got *me* speculating, Ducky! At the same time, having had children, I would suspect a desire to escape such a heavy burden, especially if her husband isn't helping much. > Seriously, the best option seems like > talking to her in order to figure out > what keeps her from wanting sex... Realize, especially given the background of religion in the OP, that this is NOT likely to work since the whole problem is that one (or both) tend to be judgemental. Hmmmm... Maybe the OP (and his wife) need to visit similarminds.com and get their Myers-Briggs type info. I'd suspect that the OP is one of the types ending in "J" but that could actually be his wife, expecting *him* to be as judgemental as she'd want to be. Perhaps breaking the whole "talking" thing (it's not like anyone can arrange for them to be trapped in an elevator for a weekend, you know) would work... Maybe they could use to dump the kids on the grand-parents and take off for a ride across the USA on a motorcycle, which may satisfy any craving she may have for excitement... (smirks) And maybe he can enjoy the trip, too, with her curled up to his back (or vice versa, you never know). Alternatively, they can (if they have $s to do so) go to a sailing school down here in Florida where even a boat rigged for single-handing works a lot better with two people. (I have a whole analogy between marriage and sailing that I wrote out here that may provide some amusement.) What they may really need is to share the process of learning something completely new to both of them, something with both challenges and consequences. A set of shared obstacles that require them to work together to solve problems, where neither party has a decided advantage over the other. (laughs) Hopefully nothing as cruel as anything from my (still incomplete) story "Wakeup Call".  SignatureJack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "The corporate version of Douglas Adams' _Shoe Event Horizon_ is the meeting: As these expand and consumes employees, productive time evaporates." - me > Geez, thats like my condition, only, I > don't even masturbate!!!! I can understand > that you might be upset... my husband is.... Perhaps you both should exchange spouses. An LDP with an LDP, an HDP with an HDP. However, little duckling, it is *not* a good sign that you don't masturbate-- this implies you can do without far too easily, so, given that, any man with an active sex drive may be advised to avoid you. If you don't masturbate due to the propriety of it, you are far too repressed too. Consider the roles being played out and how playing them is undermining your humanity. SignatureJack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "The corporate version of Douglas Adams' _Shoe Event Horizon_ is the meeting: As these expand and consumes employees, productive time evaporates." - me <snipped> > However, little duckling, it is *not* a good > sign that you don't masturbate-- this implies [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If you don't masturbate due to the propriety > of it, you are far too repressed too. Oh, really? Why do you feel that way, Jack? Kitten >> However, little duckling, it is *not* a good >> sign that you don't masturbate-- this implies [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Oh, really? Why do you feel that way, Jack? Well, how is the libido being expressed? It may be getting sublimated via other activities, of course, but that would be because those other activities are, somehow, more decent and respectable. If you have to sublimate your libido it's because you are under too much control, be it externally or internally imposed. And internal control is often conditioned in. "To thine own self be true" ain't in scripture but it has its own cachet. SignatureJack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "The corporate version of Douglas Adams' _Shoe Event Horizon_ is the meeting: As these expand and consumes employees, productive time evaporates." - me > >> However, little duckling, it is *not* a good > >> sign that you don't masturbate-- this implies [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > activities are, somehow, more decent and > respectable. But why do you equate expression of libido with masturbation? I'm truly curious. First you wrote, " it is *not* a good sign that you don't masturbate-- this implies you can do without far too easily," then you wrote, "If you don't masturbate due to the propriety of it, you are far too repressed too." I'm having trouble following where you're coming from with these comments, and how you've arrived at your conclusions. > If you have to sublimate your libido it's because > you are under too much control, be it externally > or internally imposed. Why do you feel that lack of masturbation equates sublimation of the libido? > And internal control is often conditioned in. > > "To thine own self be true" ain't in scripture > but it has its own cachet. Both of those comments I can agree to. However, your comments above seem, to me, to diametrically oppose "to thine own self be true." Kitten >>>> However, little duckling, it is *not* a good >>>> sign that you don't masturbate-- this implies [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > But why do you equate expression of libido with > masturbation? I'm truly curious. If you have no partner, and you feel the urge, masturbation provides some relief from that urge. If you *do* have a partner and they provide you enough sexual satisfaction, then, obviously, you will not feel the urge for sex, right? This is close to the EDP (Equal Desire Partnership) that is the "optimum". Humans, however, don't usually qualify as "optimal" except, perhaps, for very short spans of time. If you *do* have a partner and they want more sex than you do, then you're the LDP and have to cope with the whole question of why they're wasting your time when you're not interested and will be feeling put upon and dissatisfied being expected to give "sex on demand". If you are the HDP and your partner isn't willing (or able) to keep up with your drive, after being told that your partner has better things to do with their time than "service you", you have a couple of choices, one of which is to assume you are the "sick" one and that you need to cut down on your interest in sex or to take care of your own needs by whatever means you choose. > First you wrote, " it is *not* a good sign that > you don't masturbate-- this implies you can do > without far too easily," well, I think that's pretty self-explanatory, if perhaps the consequences aren't immediately obvious to the eye. If one partner can do without sexual attentions for extended periods then there is less motivation to see one's self as dependant upon one's partner for that aspect of a relationship. To my eye, a drive for sexual release will, unless somehow sublimated into other pursuits, be expressed as either interest in one's partner (if they're both willing and able) or in "self service". So, sure, if you choose not to masturbate and have no other outlet *and* don't feel the desire for it (or are resisting it because of conditioning, which may not be a conscious decision) then I'd suspect that you have very little in the way of a libido. Mind you, there are a surprisingly large number of ways to sublimate sexual frustration, but turning into a suicide bomber is probably not a good first choice. > then you wrote, "If > you don't masturbate due to the propriety of it, > you are far too repressed too." I'm having > trouble following where you're coming from > with these comments, and how you've arrived at > your conclusions. First off, that was clumsy phrasing, OK? If that made sense to you, something is wrong. #1: There is effort to teach masturbation as somehow "wrong" or "sinful". Consider that this subject was key to Jocelyn Elders being pushed out of office despite giving advice that would have helped the then-sitting Prez. #2: As much as we desire to be individuals, we are in conflict with desires to be part of a "herd" for mutual protection. The herd is, for the most part, a memetic thing, rather than being genetic. As such, we take up beliefs that are usually found in #1 and internalize them so, to "be a decent person", we choose to *not* take pressure off. #3: Having to choose other outlets for an ongoing level of sexual frustration DOES NOT solve the underlying problems but seems to make some of the sufferers far more manipulable. >> If you have to sublimate your libido it's because >> you are under too much control, be it externally >> or internally imposed. > > Why do you feel that lack of masturbation equates > sublimation of the libido? Masturbation when there is no partner to SATISFY the libidinous drives isn't sublimation. Taking up wood-working, golf, or being a Type A personality at work, alcoholism, etc... those are sublimations of a frustrated sex drive. Being a libertine is a *satisfaction* of the sex drive, albeit not a particularly healthy one. Remember, we humans tend to want to be "better than mere animals" and so we try to ignore the calling of the biological drives... ...but there's no denying that they are still there. We are, after all, made of meat. Just like the other animals. >> And internal control is often conditioned in. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > your comments above seem, to me, to diametrically > oppose "to thine own self be true." Having to choose to control or deny your drive when in a relationship that is meant to satisfy and *channel* those drives is where we end up lying to ourselves. Once you start lying to yourself about your own biological origins and nature is a problem. I've done it myself. On that road, I feel, lies madness. SignatureJack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "The corporate version of Douglas Adams' _Shoe Event Horizon_ is the meeting: As these expand and consumes employees, productive time evaporates." - me darbco complained: > My wife of 7 years and I have sex about > once every 4 to 6 weeks. She says she [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > is when we do it once a month." I > physically can't handle it. Not an unusual situation, where a couple are mis-matched there, an LDP and HDP... and both feel their drive (or lack) is "normal". People vary. > Suggestions please. You have a right hand. To keep the peace and not disturb things, use it. Ummmm... on yourself, not her. When sexual activity isn't enthusiastic, it feels like work, doesn't it? Now being an LDP is only sustainable if they feel secure. You can impact this false sense of security, you know. Since you will already be used to self-service, you can decline her "window of opportunity" for a couple of cycles (say, 3-6 months) until she notices that you're not showing sexual interest in her. She'll either be relieved and not speak of it assuming that you are impotent and won't bring it up to be "sensitive" or she'll get, to some small, extent, apprehensive. Eyeing other women... and being caught by your wife doing so... might be interesting. If there's any apprehension, you can try to maximize it by being more obvious when ogling other women... especially if their body shape is only slightly different from your wife's. Also, take a look at the "10 Emotional Needs" at marriagebuilders.com and look at what she's getting despite not giving you what _you_ are looking for. She may be getting her emotional needs, of which sex may not be in the top 5, satisfied... Remember, though, lack of consortium is NOT grounds for divorce... unlike most of the other recognized "currencies" in a marriage. Given puritanical mindsets it would seem that marriage is a partnership based on financial advantage. Having an affair-- or a mistress-- tends to be frowned on, at least in American culture, because there's that "forsake all others" clause in the marriage vows. It is odd that this isn't obviously an exchange: exclusivity is exchanged for frequent interest. Remember something in the Bible called "Due Benevolence"??? I sometimes wonder if marriages break down first into a "friends with benefits" kind of emotional structure (remaining unsatisfying because of the expectation of exclusivity) before it turns into merely a domestic partnership where there is no emotional bond between the couple any more-- or, in pathological cases, where the bond is unilateral. Note: My wife, even before her hysterectomy, had a low libido, which has impacted *my* sense of value... and all of _my_ sex appeal now resides in my paycheck stub... which really ain't gonna impress *anybody*, so the option of having an affair or finding/supporting a mistress ain't gonna happen. I am *very* close to my right hand nowadays. SignatureJack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "The corporate version of Douglas Adams' _Shoe Event Horizon_ is the meeting: As these expand and consumes employees, productive time evaporates." - me Stepping out is not an option for me; I am committed to this marriage. It also says in the Bible "The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." I do use my hand but men are visual and physical and need this to be satisfied. But if she says she doesn't need sex, why masterbate? > darbco complained: > > My wife of 7 years and I have sex about [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > "The corporate version of Douglas Adams' _Shoe Event Horizon_ is the meeting: > As these expand and consumes employees, productive time evaporates." - me darbco wrote: > Stepping out is not an option for me; I am > committed to this marriage. Obviously more committed that she is, right now. Marriage is *not* an unregulated and protected monopoly, you realize, so being willing to rigidly maintain *your* commitment unilaterally places *you* on the defensive. > It also says in the Bible "The husband > should fulfill his marital duty to his [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > again so that Satan will not tempt you > because of your lack of self-control." Note the key term: mutual consent. Over at Marriage Builders they have an equivalent terminology-- neither should be the loser or both are. Mutual consent also implies that negotiation is involved, you realize, and that one person making a decision and then telling the other to live with it since it "should be enough" is *NOT* mutual consent. So don't spout out Biblical verse that hems you in unless she is *also* recognizing it as restricting her choices as well. More evil has been done to the human race in the name of God than any other "cause" known. It will take a while for Money to catch up. Note also that your body is, at this point, "abandoned property" of hers. At the same time it would appear that you have been denied an easement to hers. > I do use my hand but men are visual and > physical and need this to be satisfied. What about emotional? Obviously your wife "doesn't love you enough"... ;-) Don't forget that some women get into the mindset that they want "pure love" (i.e. non-sexual) and do not want *any* sign of lust anywhere. What I cannot understand is why such people are usually adamantly opposed to same-sex marriage since sex, to them, "isn't part of the relationship". It's an effort to ensure "respect" or your obedience by keeping you strung out... and a key tenet seems to be that "respect is inversely proportional to sexuality". (laughs) Respect in such a world is wonderful for making soldiers willing to wear explosives, too. > But if she says she doesn't need sex, why > masterbate? Use it or lose it. Why not go to your doctor and request to be chemically castrated for, say, six months? If she (and you) are happier as a platonic couple, then, fine, arrange to stay that way, be what *she* wants and that way she doesn't have to be what *you* want. And that, really, is the key to power: Who is adapting to whom? Mutual consent means that *both* adapt... but the same religious heritage denies people the *mindset* to compromise, since anyone of a different opinion is automatically a heretic. Or is that supposed to be written "an heretic"? I've been married 26+ years and have been the heretic for over 20 of them. It does *not* get better and you can end up contemplating suicide as the "honorable way out" (gnawing off an arm or leg won't get you out of the trap, after all), all because the scripture doesn't warn you to reserve some loyalty for yourself and your own needs. But, then, most LDPs I'm aware of seem to have no problem reserving loyalty to themselves and their wants/needs. Never mistake principles that work when both partners are *peers* for principles that fail when there are any asymmetries. SignatureJack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "The corporate version of Douglas Adams' _Shoe Event Horizon_ is the meeting: As these expand and consumes employees, productive time evaporates." - me > My wife of 7 years and I have sex about once every 4 to 6 weeks. She > says she does not have a sex drive but will masturbate at least once a > week. She will also lie about it. I don't understand if she does not > have a sex drive why she would masturbate. And yes, she does have > orgasms when we have sex and says, "see how much better it is when we > do it once a month." I physically can't handle it. Suggestions please. In my experience this means that she likes and wants to have sex. She's just not that interested in having sex with you. Look out! Get her into couples counseling if you can. I can almost guarantee that this is a symptom of underlying issues she has with you. > My wife of 7 years and I have sex about once every 4 to 6 weeks. She > says she does not have a sex drive but will masturbate at least once a > week. She will also lie about it. I don't understand if she does not > have a sex drive why she would masturbate. And yes, she does have > orgasms when we have sex and says, "see how much better it is when we > do it once a month." I physically can't handle it. Suggestions please. It doesn't sound like a sex drive issue. It sounds like she is either mad at you, and (perhaps unconsciously) using withdrawal from sex to punish you, or like she isn't very attracted to you, or like she is spooked (again, probably unconsciously) by the increasing intimacy between you and the increasing dependence as time goes by. Couples therapy seems like a very good idea. If it is the first problem, you might find reading "Fall in love, Stay in love" useful, and if it is the third problem, you might find reading Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage" interesting. 'My wife of 7 years and I have sex about once every 4 to 6 weeks. She says she does not have a sex drive but will masturbate at least once a week. She will also lie about it. I don't understand if she does not have a sex drive why she would masturbate. And yes, she does have orgasms when we have sex and says, "see how much better it is when we do it once a month." I physically can't handle it. Suggestions please.' REPLY: You wife has a confused sexuality at present with her being married yet masturbating. Im willing to bet she has been abused in the past by men , has a low opinion of men in general, and/or , is pulling away from you emotionally for some reason(s). Suggest counselling so she can deal with the past lingering issues in her life otherwise she is setting you up for an extra marital affair should the situation present itself in the future ; sex with ones spouse every 6 weeks is not normal and healthy for the relationship unless one spouse is comotose. Regards. ____________________________________________ Featured Best Seller Book : "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist" (a fair appraisal of what Atheists DO believe in for their worldview). Address:http://www.impactapologetics.com/product.asp?numRecordPosition=1&P ____________________________________________ > 'My wife of 7 years and I have sex about once every 4 to 6 weeks. She > says she does not have a sex drive but will masturbate at least once a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > REPLY: You wife has a confused sexuality at present with her being > married yet masturbating. What? Masturbating and being married are mutually exclusive? > Im willing to bet she has been abused in the > past by men , has a low opinion of men in general, and/or , is pulling [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Address:http://www.impactapologetics.com/product.asp?numRecordPosition=1&P > ____________________________________________ > What? Masturbating and being married are mutually exclusive? Oh, sh.t! :-) > > What? Masturbating and being married are mutually exclusive? > > Oh, sh.t! :-) I'm still trying to find out why something's wrong with a person if they *don't* masturbate. Kitten > > > What? Masturbating and being married are mutually exclusive? > > > > Oh, sh.t! :-) > > I'm still trying to find out why something's wrong with a person if > they *don't* masturbate. You know, if there was ever a *personal* decision . . . > > > > What? Masturbating and being married are mutually exclusive? > > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You know, if there was ever a *personal* decision . . . Yeah, you're right. I just get really, really tired of judgemental comments such as Jack made further up in the thread. How dare anyone judge another person on such a personal decision???? OK, I guess that's on my perserveration list for the day. lol Kitten > Yeah, you're right. I just get really, really tired > of judgemental comments such as Jack made further up > in the thread. How dare anyone judge another person > on such a personal decision???? Well, there is a wide bell curve, pick your data point! (sighs) So it's a personal choice. Some people don't feel any drive to masturbate because they have sexual partners. Otheres don't feel any drive because they have deferred it so long that sexual response has become atrophied. Atrophy is real, you know, even emotionally. Our nervous systems tend to accomodate things... IMHO (and only IMHO) those with no sex drive had better make it clear, well up front to any prospective partners, that they are neuter and expect to be treated as such, and, so, any relationship, no matter how deep, will be platonic. Of course such relationships can be same-gender since, in effect, both will have chosen to be neuters. (laughs) My wife, more than once, has expressed a wish that there truly *is* such a thing as a biological neuter. You can imagine how that sounded to *my* ears. It's a pity that such a desire isn't grounds for a divorce. So, yeah, you perhaps can see why I tend to over-react on this particular issue. I ain't perfect, kiddo, any more than you are, nor am I any wiser with situations I don't identify with. I *certainly* am not without emotional scar tissue, so don't think I've not felt pain-- but, perhaps, I am fortunate to not have felt yours, as you are fortunate to not have felt *mine*. However, you make an interesting point: Assuming that you have an active libido but no sexual partners (of any kind) and don't choose to masturbate or otherwise reach orgasm, how can you claim to *have* an active libido without exercising it in some way? If you *are* sublimating it in non-sexual dimensions, what activities work for you so that you don't feel your body get interested? What do you avoid? I'll admit that this whole question is so alien to me that it's got my curiosity going, and, who knows, I might learn enough to get a story idea out of it. (Heck, the whole HDP/LDP thing, and comments about a marriage not being healthy if it is treated as a protected yet unregulated monopoly and so not subject to competition intrigued me enough to write "Ecstatic Cling"... and I've learned a LOT since then that makes parts of it sound more ludicrous than even I would have believed back then. SignatureJack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "The corporate version of Douglas Adams' _Shoe Event Horizon_ is the meeting: As these expand and consumes employees, productive time evaporates." - me <snipped> > However, you make an interesting point: Assuming that > you have an active libido but no sexual partners (of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > that it's got my curiosity going, and, who knows, I > might learn enough to get a story idea out of it. LOL... if you can get a story out of what I'm about to write, maybe it will help someone along the line. Who knows. There is a reason (OK, probably several) that I get the way I do about judgemental comments. What I will share with you about my experiences with the libido correspond with my reactions to your earlier comments. My first husband thought I was frigid. Now, I don't have a frigid bone in my body. Never have. But I do tend to be somewhat in need to positive interactions for my libido to be fully activated, as do most people, AFAIK. My first husband had a jealousy problem. Only, there wasn't a *person* he was jealous of. It was my books. Until my son was born, I had an ability to get totally absorbed and lost in any book I was reading. I became a part of the story, could see the story in my head, I was *there*. He didn't like this quality of mine. He especially didn't like it if I was reading a historical romance novel. I'd been reading those historical romances since I hit puberty. My mom kept trying to hide them from me, I kept finding them. (Because of the expectations they set up in my mind for any future relationship, I've discouraged YD from reading them, being very open with her about why I am discouraging them.) I was very much looking forward to having a RL, in person relationship, looking forward to truly feeling what was triggered by reading those books. My first husband just didn't do that for me. Could have been his nagging, degrading comments he'd make during the day, followed by expecting me to act like a "sex kitten" upon going to bed. Could have been his comment of "you need to lose some of that muscle on your legs" in response to my having lost weight to a point that my hip bones were protruding. Could have been his preference for hunting, running around, and watching XXX movies with his brother over spending time with me. Who knows. I know I *wanted* to feel the way the women in those books felt. I was often tempted to tell him to read the books, hoping that maybe he'd learn something from them. It really did a number on my self-esteem, but my libido never went away. Satisfying it remained in the realms of my head, happened in my imagination. It was after my first husband and I divorced that I found that my needs were actually quite normal, that the need to be cherished, to be thought well of, to be complimented, to be cared for outside the bedroom, were all quite realistic. FWIW, Chewy thinks my first husband is a loon, at least as far as this subject is concerned. The only thing that ever gets in the way of libido around here is exhaustion due to work demands. Kitten > LOL... if you can get a story out of what I'm > about to write, maybe it will help someone > along the line. Who knows. You'd be surprised. A lot of my stories seem to, now that I go back and read some of the older ones, pretty much document my emotional growth over time. (I happen to know the order I wrote them in, you see, so I can cheat.) That being said, a fair amount of the feedback I have gotten has been, well, "I didn't think of these questions" and the like. Today, and I suspect I got the mail because of a ref I made in this thread, gets me a feedback out of seemingly nowhere, of "I even apologized to my x wife for..." which, being fresh in my memory, is along the lines of most of the deep story feedback. That being said, there are elements in your history I can use, simply because it brought some things to mind *in me*. > There is a reason (OK, probably several) that > I get the way I do about judgemental comments. > What I will share with you about my experiences > with the libido correspond with my reactions > to your earlier comments. Looking below, you were right to jump on me to clarify what I was talking about *and* my sound of "judgemental". As an INFP I didn't think I had that in me. (grins) Now I know. > My first husband thought I was frigid. Now, > I don't have a frigid bone in my body. Never > have. But I do tend to be somewhat in need to > positive interactions for my libido to be fully > activated, as do most people, AFAIK. It's been debated back-and-forth both here and on SSG that this is more critical for women than for men... for the most part. People _do_ vary. > My first husband had a jealousy problem. Only, > there wasn't a *person* he was jealous of. It [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > He especially didn't like it if I was reading a > historical romance novel. I read sci-fi... but it's the same basic story, here, because I *know* how that feels. I can't sit and read a book any where near my wife without being interrupted for just about anything and the interruptions are seldom "worth my attention" at that time. Yup, I get irritable when I get interrupted for nothings... or to go fetch her something to eat or drink. And I'm wrong, BTW, to ever think it as "unworthy" of my time or attention. Getting lost in a book is pleasant. I wish I could write well enough to do the same, but my writing is a pale shadow of even the hacks. BTW, I suggest you add Lois McMaster Bujold to your reading list. I promise that you WILL NOT be disappointed. > I'd been reading those historical romances since > I hit puberty. My mom kept trying to hide them [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > looking forward to truly feeling what was > triggered by reading those books. Y'know, I've been saying that fairy tales provide at least as many unreasonable expectations about relationships as porn flicks do. Both are, perhaps fortunately, fantasy. If you are ever masochistic enough to visit the Tampa area of Florida, let me know. It might be fun to sit in the coffee shop at work with people who have brains. > My first husband just didn't do that for me. > Could have been his nagging, degrading comments > he'd make during the day, followed by expecting > me to act like a "sex kitten" upon going to bed. Well, the old feedback loop of "I'll treat you nicer in the bedroom if you treat me nicley outside of it" and "I'll treat you nicely outside the bed room if you treat me nicely inside" went wrong. When that goes wrong people forget where the f**k they are standing. > Could have been his comment of "you need to lose > some of that muscle on your legs" in response to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the books, hoping that maybe he'd learn something > from them. (sighs) Are you sure he was able to read anything without pictures in the book? All right, so that was a cheap shot. Let me be honest, here. I am *not* a romantic. I am *awful* at schmoozing. I am, to be brutally honest, a techie, working in a field where lying DOES NOT WORK simply because reality requires me to write programs accurately. I try to have something of a fantasy life-- where I am actualy desirable-- but reality holds sway and colors any fantasies I try to spin, simply because there are ALWAYS price tags. My wife's ex was a much more competent flatterer, a schmoozer, able to romance, make promises, deliver vast amounts of attention... but could not hold a job to support a family to save his life, so my wife had to work to support him and their two children. That he was a homosexual as well didn't help matters but that wasn't a "relevant" flaw compared to his inability to deliver truth. What I see you telling me-- and I could use to learn this-- I need to find some middle ground where I can tell my wife that I find her attractive/desirable. Oh, sure, that's a great idea. The hell of it is I think she needs someone *she* finds desirable, whose sex appeal does NOT reside solely in a paycheck stub, to deliver that kind of attention. And, at that, I'm being charitable, since she's wanted to be respected more than desirable. (shrugs) Now I'll admit that the most insulting I've ever been has been to growl at her before going off to hide so I can read w/o interruption. (laughs) > It really did a number on my self-esteem, but > my libido never went away. Satisfying it [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of, to be complimented, to be cared for outside > the bedroom, were all quite realistic. Of course... but it's all a part of a continuum. Your ex couldn't compete with a book and didn't feel he should have to, and, at the same time, did not consider that you had feelings about what he said to you. As an adult, I should *NOT* be dependant upon what my spouse things of me, I should *NOT* be depending upon her to provide a mirror so I can see myself... (laughs) No human being is completely autonomous, however. And those "shoulds" are not common, either. Being incomplete, I looked for someone to reflect values to me and help me feel more whole, as I did my best to reflect the best that I saw... (sighs) With suspicion, insults and pressure it's no wonder you had to escape. > FWIW, Chewy thinks my first husband is a loon, at > least as far as this subject is concerned. The > only thing that ever gets in the way of libido > around here is exhaustion due to work demands. Chewy, IMHO, may be far too charitable in his assessment of your ex and what he pissed away, though, as I see it, I suspect he's happy your ex f**ked up so badly... And, yeah, I know exhaustion. And I know anger and frustration (or is it anger borne of frustration?) but I do my damndest to keep it under control. I can't say that it doesn't slip out other ways. Thank you. You've given me a good dose to think about. I *may* need to sneak it into a story just so that *I* can examine the theme better. SignatureJack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "The corporate version of Douglas Adams' _Shoe Event Horizon_ is the meeting: As these expand and consumes employees, productive time evaporates." - me > What? Masturbating and being married are mutually exclusive? In hindsight, and after being married for 26+ years, I would never have predicted that I'd be so expert in the gentle art of self gratification. I'm not sure, but I suspect some people burn more-- with anger, I suspect-- once they're married. SignatureJack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "The corporate version of Douglas Adams' _Shoe Event Horizon_ is the meeting: As these expand and consumes employees, productive time evaporates." - me > My wife of 7 years and I have sex about once every 4 to 6 weeks. She > says she does not have a sex drive but will masturbate at least once a > week. She will also lie about it. I don't understand if she does not > have a sex drive why she would masturbate. And yes, she does have > orgasms when we have sex and says, "see how much better it is when we > do it once a month." I physically can't handle it. Suggestions please. I'd suggest three things: 1) Go to Amazon and buy Dr. Ed Wheat's book, Love Life for Every Married Couple. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0310425115/ref=ord_cart_shr/102-43 46602-1088960?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance This book is one of the best things I ever did when we were having *really* hard times. 2) Go to http://www.marriagemax.com and sign up for their free e-list. (IIRC, it's linked on the left side of the page.) I've used this one. 3) Go to http://www.marriagebuilders.com. There are folks here who've found it to be very helpful for their marriages. Kitten She has been going too personal counseling and we have been going to a counselor at church. Her personal counselor told us to go to a professional, so I made the appointment for tomorrow. Her counselor has asked her twice if she has been sexually abused, but she says she doesn't remember if it did take place (she told me this). She has also suffered from depression, which can be a result of abuse. This isn't just about sex. One year ago next month she had a tummy tuck and a breast lift. She started going out and shutting me out of her life, like I was a piece of furniture in the house. I found out she was in contact with an ex-boyfriend but assured me there was nothing sexual. I asked her if she loved him and she said, "I don't know." She continues to go out (girls night) to bars 2 to 3 times a week. She starts school next month for the next year. I feel like I am getting set up. I don't want a broken family. It is not fair to our kids (6 year old boy and 4 year old girl) or us. She is doing everything I thought she was against, especially with kids. > > My wife of 7 years and I have sex about once every 4 to 6 weeks. She > > says she does not have a sex drive but will masturbate at least once a [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Kitten 'One year ago next month she had a tummy tuck and a breast lift. She started going out and shutting me out of her life, like I was a piece of furniture in the house. I found out she was in contact with an ex-boyfriend but assured me there was nothing sexual. I asked her if she loved him and she said, "I don't know." She continues to go out (girls night) to bars 2 to 3 times a week. She starts school next month for the next year. I feel like I am getting set up. I don't want a broken family. It is not fair to our kids (6 year old boy and 4 year old girl) or us. She is doing everything I thought she was against, especially with kids.' REPLY: LIke i thought, your marriage is in trouble ; im afraid that your wife doesnt care too much about her family to be going out and setting herself up to be approached by men. She has some serious emotional voids in her life, and most likely stem back a ways in her life before you entered the scene. The depression exasterbates the problem and she most likely is trying to seek some emotional fulfillment thru the attention of men in general. Unfortunately, these past issues get dragged along into a marriage . So, I would seek out a trained professional in marital conflict as well as suppressed issues of the past ; in your wifes case....a female counsellor might be best. Keep us posted. See if there are any materials at www.newlife.com that may give you some deeper insight. Regards. ____________________________________________ Featured Best Seller Book : "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist" (a fair appraisal of what Atheists DO believe in for their worldview). Address:http://www.impactapologetics.com/product.asp?numRecordPosition=1&P ____________________________________________ She has been going too personal counseling and we have been going to a counselor at church. Her personal counselor told us to go to a professional, so I made the appointment for tomorrow. Her counselor has asked her twice if she has been sexually abused, but she says she doesn't remember if it did take place (she told me this). She has also suffered from depression, which can be a result of abuse. This isn't just about sex. One year ago next month she had a tummy tuck and a breast lift. She started going out and shutting me out of her life, like I was a piece of furniture in the house. I found out she was in contact with an ex-boyfriend but assured me there was nothing sexual. I asked her if she loved him and she said, "I don't know." She continues to go out (girls night) to bars 2 to 3 times a week. She starts school next month for the next year. I feel like I am getting set up. I don't want a broken family. It is not fair to our kids (6 year old boy and 4 year old girl) or us. She is doing everything I thought she was against, especially with kids. > > My wife of 7 years and I have sex about once every 4 to 6 weeks. She > > says she does not have a sex drive but will masturbate at least once a [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Kitten > She has been going too personal counseling and we have been going to a > counselor at church. Her personal counselor told us to go to a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > fair to our kids (6 year old boy and 4 year old girl) or us. She is > doing everything I thought she was against, especially with kids. Looks like she's been trying to leave you for a while, bud. Wake up. Things have gotten better and she says she wants it to work. She says "I don't know how to feel like I used too." I ask her if her counselor is helping and she seems to think so. I told her I feel like I have a room mate not a wife and she said she feels the same way but doesn't have a problem with it. > > She has been going too personal counseling and we have been going to a > > counselor at church. Her personal counselor told us to go to a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Looks like she's been trying to leave you for a while, bud. Wake up. > Things have gotten better and she says she wants it to work. She says > "I don't know how to feel like I used too." I ask her if her counselor > is helping and she seems to think so. I told her I feel like I have a > room mate not a wife and she said she feels the same way but doesn't > have a problem with it. I don't know if I, or someone else (Emma Anne for example!) has suggested this, but marriagebuilders.com might be a useful resource for you. Also, in a similar vein, the book: "Fall in Love, Stay in Love." I have used marriagebuilders.com (it is in my favorites) and received great information. I have read "Divorce Bustering" by Michele Weiner - Davis and "The Walk Out Woman" by Dr. Steve Stephens and Alice Grey (a book a friend of hers gave her). She hasn't read either of them. I will reed "Fall in Love, Stay in Love." Thanks! > > Things have gotten better and she says she wants it to work. She says > > "I don't know how to feel like I used too." I ask her if her counselor [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Also, in a similar vein, the book: "Fall in Love, Stay in Love." darbco wrote: > She hasn't read either of them. It's over. If she doesn't see and acknowledge that there is a problem, you are on your own. Marriage requires bilateral effort. Unilateral effort is a waste of time. Commitment is also bilateral. Love is bilateral, too, because it's called infatuation when it isn't reflected. Also, realize that the sexual problem isn't the root cause, it's only a SYMPTOM. It's a very *visible* symptom, though, but is often mistaken for a cause instead of correlation. I'll repeat a mantra I first heard here some 3+ years ago: "when a marriage is working well, sex is less than 10% of the reason, but, when a marriage is coming apart, sex is 90% of the problem." And that's only because sexual problems are immediately obvious to a man's eye. SignatureJack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "The corporate version of Douglas Adams' _Shoe Event Horizon_ is the meeting: As these expand and consumes employees, productive time evaporates." - me > darbco wrote: > > She hasn't read either of them. > > It's over. If she doesn't see and acknowledge > that there is a problem, you are on your own. It is possible that you are right Jack, but darbco has posted that she _does_ acknowledge that there is a problem. So I don't think it is necessarily over. >> darbco wrote: >> > She hasn't read either of them. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > So I don't think it is necessarily over. All right... I said that wrong. How's this: Even if she sees there is a problem and will acknowledge such, unless she thinks it is worth her while to do her part in *solving* the problem... That's usually the devil in the details and I really was trying to avoid the *real* question, even for myself. SignatureJack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "The corporate version of Douglas Adams' _Shoe Event Horizon_ is the meeting: As these expand and consumes employees, productive time evaporates." - me > >> darbco wrote: > >> > She hasn't read either of them. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > worth her while to do her part in *solving* > the problem... Yes, but her opinion about whether it is worth her while to be part of the solution can be subject to change. The OP may even be able to influence it. >>>> darbco wrote: >>>>> She hasn't read either of them. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > subject to change. The OP may even be able to > influence it. Of course, but the OP had damn well better be doing something to protect himself emotionally! Yeah, yeah, getting his own emotional house in order given an assumption that she may choose to pull the eject handle would likely be a good idea. Making these emotional preparations (and this is not "shopping for a new honey", Mr OP) in full view of his wife may be sensible, too, since it denies her the power to manipulate him or his emotions. Additionally, he has two children to care for, too... Religion is a wonderful thing, you know, supplying a set of irons that people *choose* to wear, that keeps them trying to be "traditional" even when it won't work. (sighs) Sorry. I'm a bit cranky today. Too much f**King testosterone has accumulated in my blood and I've not had time to bring it back down and under control for the last couple of days and this whole thread is reminding me of too many things that p!ss me off. SignatureJack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "The corporate version of Douglas Adams' _Shoe Event Horizon_ is the meeting: As these expand and consumes employees, productive time evaporates." - me > I told her I feel like I have a > room mate not a wife and she said she feels the same way but doesn't > have a problem with it. Who abused you to such a degree that you think this is acceptable? Do you think your marriage is a good model for your kids? You know they pick up on a lot more then you might think they do. > She has been going too personal counseling and we have been going to a > counselor at church. Her personal counselor told us to go to a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > fair to our kids (6 year old boy and 4 year old girl) or us. She is > doing everything I thought she was against, especially with kids. I know someone whose wife was having similar behaviors as your situation. It turned out that she was seeing another man. The story doesn't say if she has been sexual with that other man or nor. She finally told the truth to the unsuspecting husband. He was crushed. The truth was that she wanted to explore a little bit more about herself. It was stronger than her will to fight it. It is difficult to live with those "life questions" feelings when you have responsibilities toward a spouse or children. She didn't want to break up. She was looking for answers. She shouldn't have done this because he was so hurt that he left to live alone. She came back a few months later ready to continue building the relationship. It was too late. The husband didn't care anymore because he had met someone else. It was a nasty divorce. She might have good reasons for not sharing what she feels inside. She might be afraid of her own feelings. I also read somewhere that the intensity of physical intimacy comes in cycles; spring, summer, Fall, winter. Maybe you are at the winter cycle. Maybe spring is right around the corner. I have 2 friend couples to whom it has happen; it came back. ________________________________________________________ "Laughter is the closest distance between 2 people" http://www.everydaybetterliving.com/love/ |
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