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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / November 2006I lied to my wife
I love my wife. She is the most important person in my life. I have been struggling for the past few years with boredom at work and have been grasping at anything. I recently changed jobs and really like my new position. Still on an out of town trip I did something stupid. For some reason I went to a strip club. I was there less than an hour but managed to spend over $200 on dances and beer. I left and felt awful. I haven't been to a club since before I was married over 10 years ago. I don't know why I went. To make matters worse I went back to the casino and over two days managed to lose nearly $1,000 at the tables. Money isn't a problem - we aren't broke - but I still didn't want to go home and confess what I did. I lied. I covered it up. I downloaded the credit card and changed the vendor names. My wife was checking receipts against the download and came across a receipt from the strip club I forgot to remove. She pulled the cc file and now my lie is out in the open. I have never lied to my wife in our 10 years of marriage. I have never gone to a strip club, never cheated, never stole money from her in all our time together. I don't know what happened during these two days. I just went off the deep end and her trust in me is blown. For two days she has sat on the couch and cried. I have aplogized over and over and told her I wanted to make amends. I tried to tell her on a scale of 1 to 10 at least my lie was only about going to a strip club and less than $1,000. There are marriages where retirement accounts have been blown and/or someone cheated. I didn't do those things. With the exception of a bit of fantasy, I have not crossed that line. I want to make this up to her. I don't know what to do. I have told her I will provide her with daily receipts of everyting I spend money on. We will go over the books together in detail. I won't try to hide anything. I will help around the house more, I will tell her in advance where I am at so she can find me at any time, anything. I just want to know if there is a chance at forgiveness and a chance at working to rebuild the trust. I know it won't happen overnight. She just won't tell me if the 10 years of great marriage we've had outweighs this one stupid insensitve act. I know it will take time, but I have been twisting in the wind for 3 days. I don't know how much more I can take. I am not asking for instant trust. I just want to know she forgives me and to stop obsessing on what I've done but refocus on what I can do to make it up. Does anyone have any suggesstions on what I can do? (snip) > For two days she has sat on the couch and cried. I have aplogized over > and over and told her I wanted to make amends. I tried to tell her on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > With the exception of a bit of fantasy, I have not crossed that > line. Don't try to minimize. She no longer trusts you (for good reason). So how can she be sure what you have and have not lied about? Or whether you are telling the truth now? This is why lies are so insidious. > I want to make this up to her. I don't know what to do. I have told > her I will provide her with daily receipts of everyting I spend money [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > just won't tell me if the 10 years of great marriage we've had > outweighs this one stupid insensitve act. It depends on you and your wife, but yes, there is a chance. But again, don't try to tell your wife that your lies weren't as serious as they could be. > I know it will take time, but I have been twisting in the wind for 3 > days. I don't know how much more I can take. I am not asking for > instant trust. Well, you are asking for trust in 3 days. That isn't very long. Especially given the nature of your lie, which involves taking deliberate and complicated steps to decieve. How long have you been living with this lie? You can't expect your wife to forgive you in less time than this has been festering. > I just want to know she forgives me and to stop > obsessing on what I've done but refocus on what I can do to make it > up. That may be what _you_ want. But your wife may not be ready for that yet. > Does anyone have any suggesstions on what I can do? Stop lying and give it more time. > I love my wife. She is the most important person in my life. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > came across a receipt from the strip club I forgot to remove. She > pulled the cc file and now my lie is out in the open. If my husband ended up in an unpredictable situation, momentarily lost his judgment, did something stupid, and felt regretful about it, I would want him to take responsibility for his action and tell me about it. But I would be able to understand if didn't. He may have felt too ashamed or thought he'd be hurting me unnecessarily (even though I'd be more hurt when I'd find out!). I don't take an absolutist view on lies. Yes, my trust would've been damaged, and believe that I'd be able to get over it rather fast. However, if my husband did what you did (engaging in multiple wrong things over a few days), and then came up with a carefully thought out and sophisticated deceptive plan to conceal it from me, I don't think I would be able to trust him in any thing. You have to realize that what you've done is very different than simply lying about where you've been or how much money you've lost in gambling. The fact that you are capable of coming up with a systematic process of concealing your tracks to deceive your wife is, frankly, scary to me! > I have never lied to my wife in our 10 years of marriage. I have never > gone to a strip club, never cheated, never stole money from her in all > our time together. I don't know what happened during these two days. > I just went off the deep end and her trust in me is blown. I believe you when you say you haven't lied before and don't intend to do it again. But you have to realize the severity of your offense, and understand your wife's a huge set back in trust (far greater that being caught in a stupid lie). If I may project a bit, your wife has just discovered that her husband is almost like a pro in coverup plans - ok, an incompetent pro perhaps, but enough to bring shivers to her spine! > For two days she has sat on the couch and cried. I have aplogized over > and over and told her I wanted to make amends. I tried to tell her on [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > want to know if there is a chance at forgiveness and a chance at > working to rebuild the trust. Sure you do. If she *knew* she can forgive and trust you now your problems would be solved, wouldn't they?! You'd just wait the required time and everything would be fine. The fact is she doesn't know if and when she can get over this. > I know it won't happen overnight. She > just won't tell me if the 10 years of great marriage we've had > outweighs this one stupid insensitve act. You are asking her to assure you about something that she doesn't know. And your characterization of it as "one stupid insensitive act" shows that you don't realize *what* she is so shaken about, nor do you understand how big it is. > I know it will take time, but I have been twisting in the wind for 3 > days. I don't know how much more I can take. I am not asking for > instant trust. But you are! Asking her to assure you *now* is asking for instant trust. She can't assure you of something that she doesn't know, can she? > I just want to know she forgives me and to stop > obsessing on what I've done but refocus on what I can do to make it up. You have to put the effort and time that she needs on *her* terms to rebuild a shattered trust. If it was my husband, aside from losing trust I'd also lose my confidence that I know him well in general. > Does anyone have any suggesstions on what I can do? First and foremost you need to stop viewing this as a simple lie that she *should* be able to get over fast. Other than that, be patient and allow things to change very gradually. Good luck... >> Does anyone have any suggesstions on what I can do? > > First and foremost you need to stop viewing this as a simple lie that > she *should* be able to get over fast. Very true. Especially considering it isn't a matter of one simple lie.. It's one lie layered upon another. For me, if I were his wife, I'd find it easier to forgive had he told me as soon as he came home what had happened. The cover-up of what happened is the much bigger problem, in mind opinion. Fact is, he's asking her to trust him when he did not offer that same trust in her in the first place. The knowledge that he didn't trust her enough to come clean has to hurt could be part of the problem that may take some time to come to terms with, as well.  SignatureCal~ calliope 123 at gmail dot com > I love my wife. She is the most important person in my life. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > To make matters worse I went back to the casino and over two days > managed to lose nearly $1,000 at the tables. I don't want to be mean here, but you don't seem to me to be really taking responsibility for your actions. I don't think going to a strip club is the worst thing in the world, nor is losing money at a casino, but your use of "for some reason" and the verb 'managed' sort of implies that these things were accidental. They're not. These were things you did, not things you 'managed' to do. You're still trying to g ive yourself a little wiggle room. >I still didn't want to go home and confess what I did. > I lied. I covered it up. This should have been your tipoff that you were really screwing up. Little mistakes can be handled by looking sheepish. Mistakes that require you to edit your credit card statements aren't little. > For two days she has sat on the couch and cried. I have aplogized over > and over and told her I wanted to make amends. I tried to tell her on > a scale of 1 to 10 at least my lie was only about going to a strip club > and less than $1,000. There are marriages where retirement accounts > have been blown and/or someone cheated. I didn't do those things. > With the exception of a bit of fantasy, I have not crossed that line. But how is she supposed to believe you? Maybe you've done lots of illicit things and this is just the only one she's found out about. > I want to make this up to her. I don't know what to do. I have told > her I will provide her with daily receipts of everyting I spend money [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Does anyone have any suggesstions on what I can do? Honestly, I think you screwed up and you may just have to twist in the wind awhile. It's unfair of you to betray her by making such an organized attempt to hide somehting major from her and then expect her to make *you* feel better on your timetable. The problem with asking her if this one act outweighes ten great years of marriage is that by this one act, you've made her see those ten years of marriage in a new light. What's going through her head may be some set of the following questions: How many other things did you lie about? What was going on in your head that you'd do these out-of-character things in the first place? Does she know you as well as she thought she did? I'd say just be there, be contrite, be trustworthy, and hope, and realize that it's not her job to make you feel better right now. Although I think you may want to do some soul-searching and figure out what the heck was going on in your head when you blew $1000 (!) on strippers and gambling in the first place and then tried to cover it up. Sarah > I don't want to be mean here, but you don't seem to me to be really > taking responsibility for your actions. I don't think going to a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > g > ive yourself a little wiggle room. Well, when people cheat on their spouses, they use phrases like "I didn't mean for it to happen", or "I made a mistake", or "I had an affair", or "before I knew it, I found myself in bed with her", and most of those seem to be acceptable rationalizations in this enlightened world of ours, so why is the OP's situation any different? >> I don't want to be mean here, but you don't seem to me to be really >> taking responsibility for your actions. I don't think going to a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > most of those seem to be acceptable rationalizations in this > enlightened world of ours By whom? Not acceptable reationalizations in my book.. are they in yours? > so why is the OP's situation any different? 'Tis not. SignatureCal~ calliope 123 at gmail dot com > reationalizations I claim only a few hours sleep as my 'rationalization' for my horrible spelling :-P SignatureCal~ calliope 123 at gmail dot com >> reationalizations > >I claim only a few hours sleep as my 'rationalization' for my horrible >spelling :-P I actually kind of like this new word that you've coined. It's a combination of realize and rationalize. Lauri in WA >>> I don't want to be mean here, but you don't seem to me to be >>> really [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > By whom? Not acceptable reationalizations in my book.. are they in > yours? :-) > > I don't want to be mean here, but you don't seem to me to be really > > taking responsibility for your actions. I don't think going to a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > most of those seem to be acceptable rationalizations in this > enlightened world of ours, so why is the OP's situation any different? I'm far more in touch with my inner loser than you are, so at least sometimes I'm willing to accept 'but I didn't MEAN to!' as the truth, although it's not an excuse. However, I draw the line at any language that implies that not only did the person not mean to do it, they didn't even actually *do* it, it just sort of - occurred, agentless. I would include "I found myself in bed with her" in this category, definitely. Dan Savage, who writes the sex advice column Savage Love, apparently gets a lot of letters that he calls HTHs, for 'How'd That Happen?' that describe unbelievably odd and kinky sex situations but always imply or state that the situation came about by accident. Like, the letter writer just happened to have a tub full of kumquats because he was keeping them for a caterer friend, and he was cleaning the bathroom in the nude, and slipped, and on the way down he bumped his cat in there with him... Anyway, Savage says that a real man (or woman I guess) cops to what he does. It didn't 'happen', it's something you did. The OP may not have been thinking clearly, or may have been drunk, or whatever, but he sure as hell didn't just slip and fall and land in a club full of strippers and slot machines, dislodging $1000 from his wallet on the way down. Sarah > ... he sure as hell didn't just slip and fall and land in a club full of > strippers and slot machines, dislodging $1000 from his wallet on > the way down. I once fell off a ladder, broke my glasses, dislodged about $200 for a new pair... wishing that I'd landed on some strippers instead. This guy had a good time partying, blew $1000, and now complains about being banished to the dog-house? He needs to accept that its the price to pay for the good times he had, and that she'll make the call on when or if to let him out. =R= >> ... he sure as hell didn't just slip and fall and land in a club full of >> strippers and slot machines, dislodging $1000 from his wallet on the way >> down. > > I once fell off a ladder, broke my glasses, dislodged about $200 > for a new pair... wishing that I'd landed on some strippers instead. lol.. you guys remind me of a saying my brother once used.. Said he has such bad luck, he could fall into a bucket of titties and come up sucking his thumb. .. I come from such *classy* stock, dontcha know.. ;-) SignatureCal~ calliope 123 at gmail dot com >lol.. you guys remind me of a saying my brother once used.. > >Said he has such bad luck, he could fall into a bucket of titties and come >up sucking his thumb. .. > >I come from such *classy* stock, dontcha know.. ;-) Heh, I think his remark is pretty funny, which probably is a commentary about the classy stock that I come from as well. LOL. Lauri in WA >>lol.. you guys remind me of a saying my brother once used.. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Heh, I think his remark is pretty funny, which probably is a > commentary about the classy stock that I come from as well. LOL. My brother comes up with these sayings, from where I have no idea.. he really does crack me up. SignatureCal~ calliope 123 at gmail dot com >> ... he sure as hell didn't just slip and fall and land in a club full >> of strippers and slot machines, dislodging $1000 from his wallet on >> the way down. > > I once fell off a ladder, broke my glasses, dislodged about $200 > for a new pair... wishing that I'd landed on some strippers instead. lol.. you guys remind me of a saying my brother once used.. Said he has such bad luck, he could fall into a bucket of titties and come up sucking his thumb. .. ;-) SignatureCal~ calliope 123 at gmail dot com > > ... he sure as hell didn't just slip and fall and land in a club full of > > strippers and slot machines, dislodging $1000 from his wallet on > > the way down. > > I once fell off a ladder, broke my glasses, dislodged about $200 > for a new pair... wishing that I'd landed on some strippers instead. I just found out this morning that a cracked tooth is going to cost me around $3000, so I hear ya. Nothing like having to spend thousands of dollars just to get your mouth back to *normal*. > This guy had a good time partying, blew $1000, and now complains > about being banished to the dog-house? He needs to accept that its > the price to pay for the good times he had, and that she'll make the > call on when or if to let him out. =R= I agree with you as far as the recreational spending goes, but if he were my husband, I'd be much less upset about the original act and much more upset about the effort to cover up his tracks. I can tolerate sporadic stupidity but not lies. Sarah >>> ... he sure as hell didn't just slip and fall and land in a club full of >>> strippers and slot machines, dislodging $1000 from his wallet on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > around $3000, so I hear ya. Nothing like having to spend thousands of > dollars just to get your mouth back to *normal*. $3000?? That sounds a little steep to me! Even if you get a cap/crown, it shouldn't cost that much, should it? Why is it THAT high? Or are you going to have to have an extraction and peridontal work, or what? >> This guy had a good time partying, blew $1000, and now complains >> about being banished to the dog-house? He needs to accept that its [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Sarah > >>> ... he sure as hell didn't just slip and fall and land in a club full of > >>> strippers and slot machines, dislodging $1000 from his wallet on [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > cap/crown, it shouldn't cost that much, should it? Why is it THAT high? > Or are you going to have to have an extraction and peridontal work, or what? It seems high to me too (in a gasping-for-breath sort of way) but that's what they say. The work is going to be done in three steps. First, removal of broken part of tooth. Second, root canal and cap on tooth. Third, crown on top of that. I'm actually kind of psyched, because when I saw my regular dentist last week, she said she thought the only option was to have the whole tooth taken out and an implant put in, and the idea of having a tiny screw implanted in my jawbone wasn't filling me with delight. Either way, it apparently costs about $3000, but I'm told my insurance is more likely to cover it this way and not cover the implant so that's another plus. I may wind up getting a second opinion sort of accidentally, because the periodontist can't even start on this whole routine until a *month* from now, which means I have to live with a cracked tooth which sends a bolt of lightning through my jaw every time I jar it until then. I'm hoping a second dentist can fit me in sooner, and maybe she'll wind up being cheaper as well, who knows. Sarah >>>>> ... he sure as hell didn't just slip and fall and land in a club full of >>>>> strippers and slot machines, dislodging $1000 from his wallet on [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > $3000, but I'm told my insurance is more likely to cover it this way > and not cover the implant so that's another plus. I'm frankly quite surprised that the root canal and cap cost $3000, but maybe the cost varies dramatically with where you live. I'm with you on the idea of an implant ("thanks, but no thanks"), if there is any way they can avoid it, and (fortunately) it sounds like they can with the root canal and crown. I'm surprised you have to wait a whole month, though, but I know it's a pain to consider changing dentist's (or getting a new specialist) at this point but maybe you can do that - hopefully. A month seems pretty long to wait for this. Besides which - who knows if the situation could possibly? get worse, and some infection sets in, and you might then have to have an extraction? (I would guess that could be a possibility, but then again, maybe a month isn't long enough for that to happen) > I may wind up getting a second opinion sort of accidentally, because > the periodontist can't even start on this whole routine until a *month* [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Sarah >I may wind up getting a second opinion sort of accidentally, because >the periodontist can't even start on this whole routine until a *month* >from now, which means I have to live with a cracked tooth which sends a >bolt of lightning through my jaw every time I jar it until then. I'm >hoping a second dentist can fit me in sooner, and maybe she'll wind up >being cheaper as well, who knows. Poor Sarah! I can really sympathize (is that a word? it looks wrong!) because I've had several painful teeth over the years, plus I'm kind of dental phobic anyway. It doesn't sound like you're afraid, so that's a plus! I had two teeth break last summer because they both had big fillings that were old and they just gave out. So....two crowns last year and another this year, with a couple more to go. It's very spendy, but it'll sure be worth it to have your tooth stop hurting. I know what you mean about the lightening bolt of pain--why is it that tooth pain is worse than any other? Last year I found a site that was extremely helpful in calming my fear of the dentist. If I can relocate it, I'll post in the hopes that it will help any other dentaphobes lurking here! Lauri in WA > >I may wind up getting a second opinion sort of accidentally, because > >the periodontist can't even start on this whole routine until a *month* [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > to go. It's very spendy, but it'll sure be worth it to have your > tooth stop hurting. And not only that, crowns are still better than having to wear dentures. That's the way I'm justifying it in my mind. Another reason I quit smoking was because of my dentist. I love my dentist, and my dental hygenist. I've been going to there for a long while now, since my divorce. They've been gently prodding me to quit smoking because of what it was doing to my teeth, gums, and tongue. In a nice way... not in an obnoxious way. Now they're telling me that I should budget the cosmetic dental work for three years out, and make myself a deal that if I stay quit that long, I can splurge the $ I saved by not smoking. jen > >I may wind up getting a second opinion sort of accidentally, because > >the periodontist can't even start on this whole routine until a *month* [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > tooth stop hurting. I know what you mean about the lightening bolt of > pain--why is it that tooth pain is worse than any other? Thanks for the sympathy. I'm not particularly dental phobic and I'm pretty stoic about pain, but for me the hardest kind of pain to take is pain that stabs suddenly without warning. Give me a good steady throb and I adjust rapidly, but something that sneaks up and bites is hard to deal with. I agree, no matter how expensive it is, I'll still be glad when it's fixed! I hope your next crowns go well! Sarah >Thanks for the sympathy. I'm not particularly dental phobic and I'm >pretty stoic about pain, but for me the hardest kind of pain to take is >pain that stabs suddenly without warning. Give me a good steady throb >and I adjust rapidly, but something that sneaks up and bites is hard to >deal with. I agree, no matter how expensive it is, I'll still be glad >when it's fixed! I know what you mean about the sharp stabbing pains with no warning. That's what I hate about going to the dentist, actually. I'm really hard to numb and I don't stay numb well, so I never know when he'll be working along and then all the sudden ZZZZZING! a sharp pain happens. Luckily the story has a happy ending and I've got a dentist who doesn't mind numbing me up good, and will give me another shot when I ask him to. I'm usually numb up to my eyeballs till bedtime but I don't care! >I hope your next crowns go well! Thanks, I'm sure they will. I'm actually relieved to get rid of some of these big old ugly fillings. And as Jen said, crowns are much better than dentures! Lauri in WA > It seems high to me too (in a gasping-for-breath sort of way) but > that's what they say. The work is going to be done in three steps. > First, removal of broken part of tooth. Second, root canal and cap on > tooth. Third, crown on top of that. That seems pretty high for a root canal and crown--the whole process typically costs $1500-2000 depending on where you live (about half of that is the root canal, and half the crown). A root canal/crown should NOT cost as much as an implant! I'd shop around if I were you. Sadly, it can take a long time to get scheduled for a root canal. But any ole dentist can do it--you don't need a periodontist. > > It seems high to me too (in a gasping-for-breath sort of way) but > > that's what they say. The work is going to be done in three steps. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > can take a long time to get scheduled for a root canal. But any ole > dentist can do it--you don't need a periodontist. The part that's the most urgent from my perspective is the initial stop-gap removal of the broken bit and sealing of the crack. I wonder if my own dentist could do that part? Sarah >>> It seems high to me too (in a gasping-for-breath sort of way) but >>> that's what they say. The work is going to be done in three steps. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Sarah I don't see why not. >The part that's the most urgent from my perspective is the initial >stop-gap removal of the broken bit and sealing of the crack. I wonder >if my own dentist could do that part? Sarah, my dentist was on vacation when I lost a big chunk of a tooth. I called my kids' dentist and he got me in and did a big temporary filling to kind of hold things together until I could get into my regular guy. Might be worth checking out. A month is too long to go with that kind of tooth pain. Lauri in WA > It seems high to me too (in a gasping-for-breath sort of way) but > that's what they say. The work is going to be done in three steps. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > $3000, but I'm told my insurance is more likely to cover it this way > and not cover the implant so that's another plus. That sounds about right, unfortunately. I have a front tooth that's been dead for 20 years, due to trauma (I opened a car door into my mouth... long story). I had a root canal done on it 20 years ago. I lucked out because we caught it early enough, right as the root died but before it got infected and painful. Anyway, I've been told for two decades that eventually I'll have to get a crown because over time the color changes on the dead tooth. They already bleached it from the inside out once about 5 years ago when it had finally turned this yucky shade of gray, which worked great, but I'm told that they can't do that a second time. It's going to cost $3000 for the crown. I can get it done at any time now. I'm just waiting for it to turn dark enough that it's noticeable to other people and not just me, at the rate it is going, that'll be sometime within the next three years probably. But since it's my front tooth, and I have some gappiness that has long bugged me, there's some other alternative they recommended instead, "if you really want to do it right".... can't remember what it involves but it involves three teeth, not just one, at a cost of $3K each... they say it would give me a perfect flawless smile and I'd no longer have my horse teeth look due to receding gums. I admit it's quite tempting. But $9K is *a lot* of money!! Despite my vanity, I think I'd rather spend that on new bedroom furniture or a long vacation. :-) > I may wind up getting a second opinion sort of accidentally, because > the periodontist can't even start on this whole routine until a *month* > from now, which means I have to live with a cracked tooth which sends a > bolt of lightning through my jaw every time I jar it until then. I'm > hoping a second dentist can fit me in sooner, and maybe she'll wind up > being cheaper as well, who knows. Ouch! I hope you can get it done sooner than that too. jen > It's going to cost $3000 for the crown. I can get it > done at any time now. Wow.. I just had a crown done and it cost me $975.00.. (insurance will pay half of that so, my portion is less than $500.00) My root canal was similarly priced, slightly less. (In the neighboring town that you are familiar with.. - the dentist office has the town name included in their name so you'd know which one I'm talking about, Jen.) Are they doing more than a crown on this tooth? I'd definitely be seeking at minimum, a second opinion at those prices. SignatureCal~ calliope 123 at gmail dot com >> It's going to cost $3000 for the crown. I can get it >> done at any time now. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -- > Cal~ That, and she needs to get it done before it possibly gets worse, and they might not even be able to save it. (although I suppose that might take longer than a month, but still, why chance it) >> It's going to cost $3000 for the crown. I can get it >> done at any time now. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Are they doing more than a crown on this tooth? I'd definitely be > seeking at minimum, a second opinion at those prices. My mouth is just getting the feeling back from going to the dentist. Yesterday - Cleaning, scaling and fluoride - my cost $10.00 Today - Removal of old cracked filling and application of new - $16.00 Near Future - Crown - my cost under $350.00 TG I am blessed with a very good dental plan John >>> It's going to cost $3000 for the crown. I can get it >>> done at any time now. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > John Me too, mine is covered 100%; like whenever I need a tooth extraction, I just tie a thin rope between my tooth and the door and slam the door shut. I've got that one covered. >> ... he sure as hell didn't just slip and fall and land in a club >> full of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the price to pay for the good times he had, and that she'll make the > call on when or if to let him out. =R= We definitely agree, this time. I think that some in another post advised the liar who tried to regain trust to give his wife full access to any private info - and let her know that you expect her to monitor you. Give her your password to your email account, let her open your mail, see your accounts (those that are in your name only), tell her that she can call you at any time to check where you are and what you're doing. [and indeed, don't be offended when she does it. After all, she doesn't trust you and you know what the causes are] That may help her being reassured that nothing else is going on. Even with that, you need to give her time, a lot of time. Trust cannot be recovered overnight. > > > I don't want to be mean here, but you don't seem to me to be really > > > taking responsibility for your actions. I don't think going to a [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Sarah >>> I don't want to be mean here, but you don't seem to me to be really >>> taking responsibility for your actions. I don't think going to a strip [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Sarah And I think these days it's not all THAT uncommon, unfortunately. Again, it comes down to the (generally) decreasing lack of one's own personal responsibility and accountability, which is further supported - and encouraged - by our illustrious legal "profession", which often rewards the irresponsible with nice settlements. Only today can we have such crap as OJ getting ready (and chomping at the bit) to make money off of a book saying "If I Did It". I'm continually and routinely impressed with how "far we have come". >>> I don't want to be mean here, but you don't seem to me to be really >>> taking responsibility for your actions. I don't think going to a strip [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > sometimes I'm willing to accept 'but I didn't MEAN to!' as the truth, > although it's not an excuse. LOL! You do have a wicked sense of humour! > However, I draw the line at any language > that implies that not only did the person not mean to do it, they [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Sarah > I'm far more in touch with my inner loser than you are, so at least > sometimes I'm willing to accept 'but I didn't MEAN to!' as the > truth, > although it's not an excuse. How can it be true that an action which is very consciously and deliberately decided to be taken well in advance of its occurrence possibly not be meant to be taken? > How can it be true that an action which is very consciously > and deliberately decided to be taken well in advance of its > occurrence possibly not be meant to be taken? Did you ever say something that, as the words cam out of your mouth, you were thinking, "This is a mistake. I can't believe I'm saying this?"... not that it applies to this clod. >> How can it be true that an action which is very consciously >> and deliberately decided to be taken well in advance of its [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of your mouth, you were thinking, "This is a mistake. I > can't believe I'm saying this?"... not that it applies to this clod. Sure, but I fail to see how this is applicable to what I said in response to what Sara said > > I'm far more in touch with my inner loser than you are, so at least > > sometimes I'm willing to accept 'but I didn't MEAN to!' as the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > deliberately decided to be taken well in advance of its occurrence > possibly not be meant to be taken? It can't, but I think you may be (at least in some cases) seeing conscious deliberation where there's in fact a lot of self-deception or different desires working at cross-purposes in one person's head. I've never cheated on my spouse in any way, shape or form, but I am a really terrible procrastinator. I never consciously 'mean' to wait until the last minute and spend a sleepless night finishing a critical project, but just as clearly I'm the one who does it! There are times when it feels like one part of my mind is gibbering in indignation at my foolishness in choosing to, say, reorganize my entire craft-materials stock instead of starting the critical project, and yet there I am, going ahead and doing it anyway. I believe a lot of addictive behavior is like this too. There can be a strong desire to quit co-existing with a strong desire to continue, and sometimes it almost feels like there's two people fighting for control of the helm. (Or, to use an even sillier example, I also have very itchy eczema, and it's a bad idea to scratch it because it just gets more inflamed. I can't tell you the number of times I have *vowed* not to scratch and make it worse, and two seconds later there I am scratching without consciously having changed my mind.) Do you never do anything you think is a bad idea or even wrong? If you do, how do you describe it? I believe using language like "I found myself doing X" is a cop-out, and especially likely to come across as such to an aggrieved spouse, but I can understand the feelings that make people say that. They disapprove of X, they didn't consciously plan to do X, but they DID X, and they really wish they hadn't. It doesn't surprise me all that much that people struggle finding a way to describe it. Sarah > They disapprove of X, they didn't consciously > plan to do X, Yes, I *definitely* don't plan to eat more than one (count, ONE, as in UNO) slice of my MIL's incredible chocolate mouse tart today. I really, really, don't, and I mean it. I KNOW it makes me feel sick later, it always does. Turkey, I can take or leave, but I have to guard myself against that mean tart. So I am taking some preventative measures and eating *more* breakfast right now so I'm not tempted. > but they DID X, and they really wish they hadn't. OOPS.... Did I?! Again?! Are you a fortune teller or something? > It > doesn't surprise me all that much that people struggle finding a way to > describe it. Watch me, I'm going to prove you wrong. Past failures are no proof of future performance. I intend to live to report back tonight. Watch this space. Heading out for the test soon -- pray for me, willya? :-) > > They disapprove of X, they didn't consciously > > plan to do X, > > Yes, I *definitely* don't plan to eat more than one (count, ONE, as in > UNO) slice of my MIL's incredible chocolate mouse tart today. I Speaking of recipes that must be posted! Actually my main question is it is chocolate _with_ mice in that tart or is the tart made from chocolate mice? And are they house mice, field mice, or lab mice? >>>They disapprove of X, they didn't consciously >>>plan to do X, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it is chocolate _with_ mice in that tart or is the tart made from > chocolate mice? As it turned out, it was chocolate *rat* tart this year. I mean the thing was huge! But interestingly enough I didn't eat more than one slice. It's really amazing, but my little promise here worked. I simply couldn't go for seconds as I usually do. There must be a lesson in this experiment, but I am not sure what it is. Hope everyone had a great thanksgiving.... >> They disapprove of X, they didn't consciously >> plan to do X, > > Yes, I *definitely* don't plan to eat more than one (count, ONE, as in > UNO) slice of my MIL's incredible chocolate mouse tart today. But you *didn't* say how BIG a piece you'd eat :-) >> How can it be true that an action which is very consciously and >> deliberately decided to be taken well in advance of its occurrence [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > critical > project, but just as clearly I'm the one who does it! Two points here. First, in this context, this wasn't a decision of omission, but a decision of commission. In fact, not only did he deliberately decide to commit the offense, but he deliberately decided to try to cover it up. Context matters. Second, every time you think of the thing you need to do, and you decide NOT to do it at that time, you you DO add to your decision to consciously 'mean' to wait until the last minute. I think that you're rationalizing here a little. > There are times > when it feels like one part of my mind is gibbering in indignation [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Do you never do anything you think is a bad idea or even wrong? Absolutely. > If you > do, how do you describe it? "I did wrong", and, if it's to someone else, I say "I'm sorry for doing something wrong.". I don't say that I didn't mean to do it unless that's true. For instance, I might be playing tag with my grandkids, and inadvertently tag one of them a little too hard and they trip and fall. In that case, I may say that I didn't mean to push them down because that wasn't my intent. But if I did mean to push them down, I wouldn't say that I didn't mean to do it. > I believe using language like "I found > myself doing X" is a cop-out, and especially likely to come across [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to > describe it. You seem to be arguing both sides of the same argument. > >> How can it be true that an action which is very consciously and > >> deliberately decided to be taken well in advance of its occurrence [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > deliberately decide to commit the offense, but he deliberately decided > to try to cover it up. Context matters. I agree with you absolutely about the lying, that was nothing but deliberate, and if it were me I would be *much* more upset about the lie for exactly that reason. I was speaking only of the original gambling-and-strippers stuff. > Second, every time you think of the thing you need to do, and you > decide NOT to do it at that time, you you DO add to your decision to > consciously 'mean' to wait until the last minute. I think that you're > rationalizing here a little. Probably. I'm just saying that people can be relating, accurately and without lying, that they have a feeling of 'not wanting to do' something they're actually doing. Presumbably they also have a desire that's even stronger than the aversion, but it doesn't mean that the aversion isn't there. > > Do you never do anything you think is a bad idea or even wrong? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > push them down because that wasn't my intent. But if I did mean to > push them down, I wouldn't say that I didn't mean to do it. Hmm. I can't tell if you are simply an unusual person or if I haven't found an example that resonates for you yet. Have you ever quit a terrible habit and then slipped back into it? > > I believe using language like "I found > > myself doing X" is a cop-out, and especially likely to come across [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > You seem to be arguing both sides of the same argument. Wouldn't be the first time an online discussion led me to do that. Actually, I was originally pointing out that the OP (who seems to have vanished, so I think we're just talking to ourselves now) was using language that implied that the events sort of, y'know, just happened. I said that that kind of language is a cop-out, because obviously spending a grand on gambling doesn't just happen, someone has to do it. I do see a shade of distinction between that and saying 'I didn't mean to do it'. In that case, the transgressor is saying he did it (duh) but denying conscious intent. I have more sympathy with that position at an abstract level, although I think either one is likely to so undermine an apology as to render it useless. Sarah >> >> How can it be true that an action which is very consciously and >> >> deliberately decided to be taken well in advance of its [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > lie for exactly that reason. I was speaking only of the original > gambling-and-strippers stuff. How could the original gambling-and-strippers stuff not have been just as deliberate? >> Second, every time you think of the thing you need to do, and you >> decide NOT to do it at that time, you you DO add to your decision [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > that's even stronger than the aversion, but it doesn't mean that the > aversion isn't there. And that doesn't mean that it isn't deliberate. >> > Do you never do anything you think is a bad idea or even wrong? >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > found an example that resonates for you yet. Have you ever quit a > terrible habit and then slipped back into it? Most definitely. >> > I believe using language like "I found >> > myself doing X" is a cop-out, and especially likely to come [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > at an abstract level, although I think either one is likely to so > undermine an apology as to render it useless. I don't see any substantive difference between "it just happened" and "I didn't mean to do it" in this context. > Still on an out of town trip I did something stupid. For some reason I > went to a strip club. I was there less than an hour but managed to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > we aren't broke - but I still didn't want to go home and confess what I > did. you've already had some good advice from others, so I won't repeat that. One point I haven't seen made yet is why? Why did you do these things? If we take you at your word, this is quite uncharacteristic. Are you under some intense pressure? Are you angry at your wife? It seems to me that you need to understand this before you can so confdently assure your W this won't happen again. >I love my wife. She is the most important person in my life. then don't ever lie to her again. >> I love my wife. She is the most important person in my life. > > then don't ever lie to her again. Again??? Why would he lie in the first place? > I love my wife. She is the most important person in my life. <snip> Duuurrrrrrrr! A newsgroup can't help you, it's between you and your wife. > I love my wife. She is the most important person in my life. > > I have been struggling for the past few years with boredom at work and > have been grasping at anything. I recently changed jobs and really > like my new position. Sounds like denial and escapism. What part of your life has you running away from it? > Still on an out of town trip I did something stupid. For some reason I > went to a strip club. I was there less than an hour but managed to > spend over $200 on dances and beer. I left and felt awful. I haven't > been to a club since before I was married over 10 years ago. I don't > know why I went. Start looking inward. Directed journaling (writing about your emotional reaction to events and situations in your life) coupled with a study of your thinking errors, might help you uncover your motivations. > To make matters worse I went back to the casino and over two days > managed to lose nearly $1,000 at the tables. Money isn't a problem - > we aren't broke - but I still didn't want to go home and confess what I > did. Were you angry at your wife? It sounds as if you were deliberately trying to hurt her, and used this spree of misconduct as an excuse to do so, without having to own up to your actual intentions. > I lied. I covered it up. I downloaded the credit card and changed the > vendor names. My wife was checking receipts against the download and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > our time together. I don't know what happened during these two days. > I just went off the deep end and her trust in me is blown. "Going off the deep end" is a useless euphamism for what you would rather not admit to yourself, or anyone else. Get to the core issues, and stop kidding yourself. Your wife certainly isn't buying this line of BS. > For two days she has sat on the couch and cried. I have aplogized over > and over and told her I wanted to make amends. I tried to tell her on > a scale of 1 to 10 at least my lie was only about going to a strip club > and less than $1,000. There are marriages where retirement accounts > have been blown and/or someone cheated. I didn't do those things. > With the exception of a bit of fantasy, I have not crossed that line. The issue isn't what you haven't done, but what you have. Most people who cheat or betray their mates, do so with the anticipation (and probably desire) to get caught. This makes the wounding so much more hurtful and destructive. > I want to make this up to her. I don't know what to do. I have told > her I will provide her with daily receipts of everyting I spend money [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > just won't tell me if the 10 years of great marriage we've had > outweighs this one stupid insensitve act. It was a series of actions, with apparent premeditation. Before she can trust you again, you will likely need to know exactly why you did the things you did. Otherwise, how is she to know that your secret, unresolved motives won't surface again in the future? > I know it will take time, but I have been twisting in the wind for 3 > days. I don't know how much more I can take. I am not asking for > instant trust. I just want to know she forgives me and to stop > obsessing on what I've done but refocus on what I can do to make it up. > > Does anyone have any suggesstions on what I can do? Yes. 1. Stop expecting (demanding) that she forgive you! 2. If you truly want forgiveness, earn it! a. Figure out (really) why you went on this binge of misconduct. b. Identify all of the issues between you two. c. Identify any inappropriate role modeling of similar behavior from your past. d. Work with a qualified therapist to change your thinking and behavior, so that your wife can feel certain that you will not do such things again. 3. Don't try to take the easy way out: a. Quick fixes b. Promises made, soon broken c. Look for reasons to blame her for your misconduct d. Look for loopholes. Cheers, Larry G. LAMPS loveandmarriageseminars.com >I love my wife. She is the most important person in my life. > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > came across a receipt from the strip club I forgot to remove. She > pulled the cc file and now my lie is out in the open. Not only did you lie at least a couple of times, but you tried as hard as you could to cover it up, which is another round of lies, and now that you're caught, you claim to feel terrible and sorry. Well, you're credibility is shot at this point, and so I've come to the conclusion that you only feel badly for having been caught, and you've come here for some sort of absolution and relief of YOUR pain. You're not the first one to do that, and you won't be the last. Unfortunately, lack of self honesty isn't all that unusual. > I have never lied to my wife in our 10 years of marriage. I have > never [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Does anyone have any suggesstions on what I can do? > >I love my wife. She is the most important person in my life. > > [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > > > > Does anyone have any suggesstions on what I can do? The cover up shows intent. >The cover up shows intent. And if not intent, then at least intent to deceive after the fact. I'm guessing that's why the OP's wife is so shattered and distrustful; because now she wonders how many other untruths there are, how many other deceptions. Maybe it's just me, but I'm guessing there are at least a few. I would think that it's pretty unusual for a normal, responsible family guy to go out and blow $200 on strippers and $1000 on gambling if it was their first time doing either. I have a pretty finely-tuned Bull-Sh*t-O-Meter, and it's close to pegging out on this one. Lauri in WA I wrote a rather long email - if your addy isn't real, I'll resend if you email me. I really feel for you. I agree that on the whole range of human impulses and actions regarding fidelity, you didn't screw up that badly. ---- "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -Voltaire > I wrote a rather long email - if your addy isn't real, I'll resend if > you email me. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > atrocities" > -Voltaire Yes, a long email from a strange (as in, previously unknown) woman is just the ticket. And yeah, he didn't screw up too badly before he screwed up really badly. M. Shes your wife...the most important persin in oyur life, and you are hers, you will get throught it thats little, she shouldnt cry, you should make jokes of it look at this like its all ready the past...move on,like oyu said you didnt cheat Shes your wife...the most important persin in oyur life, and you are hers, you will get throught it thats little, she shouldnt cry, you should make jokes of it look at this like its all ready the past...move on,like you said you didnt cheat Hi Time will heal things between you. You screwed up, but it's not the end of the world. You have to give things time. Face it, women are kind of nuts when it comes to things like that. What's really the big deal? You went out town on business and just once in your whole marriage you went to a strip club. If you were just looking and having a few drinks, so what. Even the gambling part is no big deal if you can afford it. Pretty stupid of you to use a credit card instead of cash. I guess the part that bothers her most is how you lied to cover up. I understand it. You knew she would get pissed. One thing about women I know, they think you are doing something even when you're not. So lieing has made things worse for you. You can't change the past. I would just try to reassure her that you love her and this is just a one shot deal. She really should get over it. I live in a beach resort. Do you know how many groups of guys come into town for Golf and go out to watch some topless dancers at night? I'ld guess close to 90%. So they're being a little naughty. It doesn't mean anything. I bet she'll just make you grovel for awhile and that will be it. She's pretty stupid if she wrecks your marriage because of it. You'll just have to ride it out and hope for the best. If I was you I would behave myself when out of town on business. Find a hobby that you can occupy your free time with. Marriage is hard enough without making things worse. Good luck. > I love my wife. She is the most important person in my life. > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Does anyone have any suggesstions on what I can do? > She's pretty stupid if she wrecks your marriage because of it. She isn't the one that lied, then added to the problem by doing a cover-up compounding the lies.. put the blame where it's deserved, which is not the wife. SignatureCal~ calliope 123 at gmail dot com >> She's pretty stupid if she wrecks your marriage because of it. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > -- > Cal~ Yup. Sigh, I'm beginning to lose hope with this generation... It's depressing as hell. Bill in Co. said > >> She's pretty stupid if she wrecks your marriage because of it. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yup. Sigh, I'm beginning to lose hope with this generation... Beginning??? It is about all you've talked about for years. Casey > Bill in Co. said > > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > It is about all you've talked about for years. This is also the first I heard that lying was invented by this generation. > Hi > Time will heal things between you. You screwed up, but it's not the end > of the world. You have to give things time. > Face it, women are kind of nuts when it comes to things like that. LOL! > What's really the big deal? You went out town on business and just once > in your whole marriage you went to a strip club. If you were just [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > One thing about women I know, they think you are doing something even > when you're not. LOL! > So lieing has made things worse for you. > You can't change the past. I would just try to reassure her that you [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I bet she'll just make you grovel for awhile and that will be it. > She's pretty stupid if she wrecks your marriage because of it. She is pretty stupid for deciding not to trust someone who lies but also performs elaborate cover up operations? Strange > You'll just have to ride it out and hope for the best. If I was you I > would behave myself when out of town on business. Find a hobby that [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >> >> Does anyone have any suggesstions on what I can do? > Hi > Time will heal things between you. You screwed up, but it's not the end [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > > > > Does anyone have any suggesstions on what I can do? What has been suggested sounds good, but you might also let her hang out with some naked men for awhile stuffing $200 of the household buget in their...ummm crack. Then don't complain when she spends $1,000 friviously without your consent. :-) > I love my wife. She is the most important person in my life. > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Does anyone have any suggesstions on what I can do? "The only charm of marriage is that it makes a life of deception necessary for both parties." ~ O. Wilde |
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