Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / November 2006

But have you tried therapy?  If the real issues about sex are about
your wife's past (rather than something like fatigue because she's
running around after two little kids) or some other sorts of marital
problems, it doesn't seem to me that you're likely to get anywhere
with anything that you individually can do.  

What does she say about this?  Is it something that you can talk about
together?  Does she understand that this is important to you, or does
she think (or pretend) that you're happy with the status quo?  

I suspect that to change this, it's going to have to be something that
you *both* buy into, and that you're likely to need some outside help
in doing it.  Which would be well worth getting, because the
alternative is most probably a future that looks exactly like the
present.

Hi Charlie -

Small steps at a time.

Start with maybe a flirting phone call from work one day, then maybe a
little pat on the a.s while cooking dinner together one night, then
maybe a movie and dinner date - just holding hands and arms around
each other, then maybe some kissing and petting, but nothing else -
and so on.

This is not going to be an easy, fast process. You sound like a patient
fellow - and your wife sounds like she needs to take the gradual
introduction of romance and sex at a very slow pace.

Jani

http://G-gasm.com
G-gasm Method - G-spot Orgasms by the Bucketful

.

Time to go back to the doctor - together. As a minimum, I think she
needs some counselling to deal with her past history, you need couples
therapy to deal with this as a pair so she "gets" the impact that this
has on you and on the future viability of the marriage - and she needs
a full physical exam and perhaps some evaluation from a specialist to
make sure there are no physical reasons for her very low libido, and to
find out if there is anything that can be done!

She needs to understand that this can be a marriage killer. I know its
a cliche, but my observation is that men do need sex to feel loved -
and most men couldn't face another 40 years of sexless marriage, no
matter how great a person the wife is. Physical intimacy is an
important component of the glue that holds people together. This would
be a deal breaker in most households - if not immediately, then
certainly with time.

Don't settle for this - if nothing else, try to explore all the fixes
possible. You might also want to institute a weekly date night where
you spend some time alone together to rekindle the person to person
closeness. Maybe just a burger and a movie, but date nights did wonders
for us (we're parents of three) amid the craziness of jobs and child
rearing and all the domestic overload that goes with that. Its
important to connect as people (i.e. remind each other why you got
together in the first place). Heck, just being able to TALK to each
other without endless interruptions, being able to hold hands, share
some fun activity, wow, it's just great - even if we just go SHOPPING
together without the herd of goats (the three kidlets). Certainly made
me feel much closer to my husband than just dealing with him as Daddy
and the other pair of domestic drudge hands all the time.

I'd also be investing in some weekend get aways (like mini-honeymoons)
to see if a little romance and togetherness might not have some effect.
Way cheaper than divorce.

Its not very romantic and spontaneous - but you also might want to try
scheduling some sex i.e. Saturday night once the kids are in bed, or
whatever. Some candles, some lingerie, some massage - she might just
lie there like a fish, but you never know, she might get into it, and
she can see it as a gift to you - and then it would be at least once a
week, and you'd have something to look forward to.

Don't be passive. Tell her this is a problem.  She needs a wake up!

Mary G.

You said, "I am so attracted to her and would love to show it
intimately." I understand. However, I hope you realize that you can show
her how you feel with other types of intimacy. And those might be the
types of intimacy she needs most, as well as the only type she can
accept right now.

Emotional and intellectual intimacy are powerful devices.

Many, if not all, rape victims end up feeling "dirty" and so forth. If
that is so in her case, she has had a lifetime to program herself into
believing that. Can you reprogram her? I choose to believe it is
possible.

As often as possible, tell her vocally and in love notes that she is
still precious. I suspect that message is something she'd like to
believe, but can't just now. The message "more beautiful and sexually
alluring than ever before" is very possibly counter productive because
those qualities are likely the ones that attracted the rapist.

This is all speculation on my part, but I urge you to focus on where the
damage lies: her thoughts and feelings, her spirit. Try to let your
compliments about her appearance be brief and perhaps not too frequently
for some time. Just keep reminding her that she is still precious.

Be prepared for her to reject the notion that she is still precious. In
fact, she might even get angry at you for suggesting 'such a ridiculous
idea'! After all, this has been an alien concept for many years. Just
remember, you have to believe she is still precious, else she never will
believe. Do not allow her to convince you otherwise!

Jani recommended "small steps." That is so true! The steps almost have
to be inperceivable.

I'm probably going to need some help with this idea, but here goes. Try
not to be too tentative when touching your wife. If you are too
animalistic right now, you know it would be harmful. However, if you
touch her as though you're afraid she'll break, she will realize that
you are remembering her assault. She doesn't want you to remember it.
She doesn't want to remember it either! Am I making any sense?

Do you two ever wrestle? If not, you should--and let her win often. Jani
suggested a pat on the butt, holding hands and having arms around one
another. Those are yummy things, but in your case, you have to avoid
anything that might be perceived as too physically restraining. For now,
I would never put your wife in a scenario where she thought she could
not get free.

For whatever consolation it might be, I believe, with a lot of work,
there will come a time when your wife will allow you to do most
anything. She is a young woman, and there is surely a tigress in there
somewhere that would love to come out. You just have to convince her
that it is safe. And you can do that!

You walked into this situation willingly, and you might have gotten in
over your head; but you can do this! You and she can do this.

In the meantime, don't forget to be as supportive as possible in other
ways. Regarding children, frankly, they drive me nuts! So I don't have
any. Never let her feel unappreciated for the care she provides them.
Considering what it took for her to allow you to make them, an
occasional expression of your understanding would be in order.

________________________
Whatever it takes.

Wow.

I have a similar problem with my missus... she just does not really
care about sex.
Sure she enjoys it once a week when I REALLY ask for it, but other than
that she can go for months with out bringing it up. SHe says no alot
also which makes me ask for it less. She does nt understand the kisses
on the neck, the massages the things that normal people use to arouse
each other. I swear I have to out right ask for sex if I am going to
get any. It sucks.

We are that couple that needs IVF to have kids, we have gone through 8
cycles and have b/g twins 4 years old.

I would recomend having her Testosterone levels checked, this could be
a physical problem.
Has she seen a therapist after the rape?
If it is not a physical problem you guys need counseling!

Good luck.

Jack

I have read all the responses. My only though is, you absolutely HAVE to get
honest, in a kind and loving way. While I suppose it is sweet and caring
that you are trying to protect your wife, and yourself from what you
perceive as her issues that will cause her pain, no real solutions can be
arrived at by beating around the bush.

My opinion is that you speak honestly to her. Really honestly. Focussing
only on the issues / problems *for you* to start. Using "I feel like"
statements and aportioning no blame or cause. You really probably don't know
the cause or causes of the lack of sex. While for some rape is a life
changing and redefining event, for others it is not. You may not know which
category she is in. She may have a low libido. She may have socialization
and conditioning prebias. She may have a combination of all those. She may
have built up resentments about things that you did not realize were a big
deal. In my opinion, right now the cause is not yet important. Right now
that she understand that this is a Big Fat Issue for you is important. Don't
threaten or use ultimatums.

That's my opinion.

Good Luck.

Hello, Charlie.  I'm not a group - I'm Atalanta.  I haven't read every
single other post on your thread, so if I'm repeating anything others
said, forgive me.  I truly want to help - and to get some insight into
this.

Sex is very important.  The most important and enduring advice I ever
got about marriage was from a very smart woman - about sex.  She said,
"If the sex is good, a marriage can forgive a lot of other things."

She was right.  So it's an important topic - and you're almost a
beginner - a newlywed - you can fix this.

My first recommendation is to get yourself over to
www.divorcebusting.com - not because you are about to divorce, but
because nearly everyone COULD divorce - and sex has got to be the
number one reason on the least for many people.  Go to their "Sex
Starved Marriage" and read a few threads - it'll give you lots of
concrete ideas and make you feel better right away.  I am not
associated with the cite in any way.

My view is controversial on this group.  I have citations to support
what I say, in fact, I am borrowing liberally from Theresa Crenshaw.
If you want info about her books, email me.  Now - I'll be slammed for
some of what I'm about to say, but I'll refer everyone who dislikes the
view to Crenshaw - she's got a website somewhere - go complain to her.
Everything I'm about to say could be written slightly different if
about a man (or a child or an old person or a gerbil or a male dog -
but I'm talking about "typical females," and I'll bet your wife is one
of them).

1.  Sex hormones (tiny molecules, proteins) are present in her genital
tissue, *some* of the nerves and muscle fibers that connect her
genitals to her brain and in her brain.

2.  People vary, but it's not unusual for the brain to gradually
"reset" needed amounts of various chemicals (including chemicals found
within itself) according to what got used the most that day.  People
actually vary a great deal in this - but in most people, if a chemical
that's useful is used up, the brain makes more of it - if it can.
There are limits to what the various chemical making subsystems
(pituitary, hypothalamus, ovaries, etc., etc., can do).

3.  Pregnancy frequently disrupts chemical signals in a woman's body.
Many women feel very sexual DURING pregnancy, btw - and their men
ignore them.  It's common, actually.  So, think back.  Did you start
this by ignoring her sexual needs when she was pregnant?  Many American
women are highly embarassed to even mention or discuss this.  I had a
non-American OB-GYN with my first kid - and my X practically fainted
when the Doc brought up pregnant sexuality.  I assume people talk more
about it now - right?

4.  If a person is less sexually active, for any reason, the specific
proteins that are the catalysts of sexual arousal (which is similar to
but distinct from general arousal - the kind of arousal we get when a
baby cries or the other kinds, such as the fear response) are not on
the "A-list" in most people's brains.  In other words, while the brain
may struggle to increase endogeneous endorphins, in the brain, it may
not struggle so hard to increase the active-sex drive hormones.  In
fact,  the brain is obligated during pregnancy, nursing and some of the
period of time that follows nursing, to produce larger (even copious)
amounts of oxytocin - which is not involved in active sex-seeking
(AFAIK - it's a cuddle chemical, it's sometimes called 'the chemical of
bonding').  If the sex drive is to be kindled, something has to cause
the brain to "remember" to produce the right chemicals.

5.  And, that would be - er, genital and other erotic stimulation.
I'll get back to that (or email me - although some men here think that
my saying that is some kind of statement that I'm trying to lure you
away from your wife - QUITE the opposite, Charlie - but I sense about
you that you knew that).  There's more from me - in a second.

Any of you can stop reading at any time, if you like.

Hmmm?  Are you saying it's a sex only when reproducing marriage?

This is what I would really need to know - and no, I don't want these
details in an email - post them here and you'll see that others will
have excellent responses - you need to think about my questions though.

Are you saying that somehow, the two of you, only have sex when you
want to have children - or only that you stop having much sex when
she's pregnant (see above).

If you wanted to have more sex and children spaced further apart - you
needed to work with something called BIRTH CONTROL.

This is important.  If both of you once had sex drives (and I'm telling
you - she did, rape victim or not - she has, somewhere, a sex drive of
some kind) - hers got messed with majorly by pregnancy, yours did not.
Which one of you was likely to be more resourceful in dealing with
B.C., given this biochemical milieu?  You.  You weren't pregnant - and
you weren't dealing with protein/hormone fluctuations - much.  If
you're very sensitive, you could have been influenced by your wife's
hormonal fluctuations (by pheromones; Bob G. and others:  write to
Crenshaw about this, not me - better yet, Suffin, yeah - write to
Suffin!)  However, that influence is STILL much weaker than the direct
hormonal influence of being pregnant.  You, Charlie are the
sexual-initiatory-responsible party in this relationship.

So - sit back and relax and TRY to remember what turned her on,
initially. Something must have.  What's your marital culture like?
Here's a checklist - do you ROUTINELY (5x a week or more) do the
following:

1.  Some kind of massage, bodywork - not necessarily sensual.
2.  Sit with a cup of something (coffee, bouillon, bourbon) and look
into each other's eyes while talking - about something OTHER than the
babies.  Anything.
3.  Go out of your way to mention/do something that is very important
to the OTHER person (discuss baseball if they're a fan, ask about
Gertrude's health, discuss the importance of Oprah's weight loss, the
change in tax law - WHATEVER) - in fact - what are the 5 topics/doings
that your wife likes/craves most?  See?  See how that's related to sex
(I hope so).
4. If one cooks - the other sets and cleans up a nice table.  If you're
not eating at home, together, at least 5 times a week - review all
systems.
5. Brush each other's hair or perform some other simple service of
PHYSICALITY for the other person.
6.  Call each other dear, darling, honeypot or similar (and if you
don't have ANY endearments at all - major system review PLUS make sure
you set aside - in cash - enough money for a retainer for an attorney
should you need one).  Endearments can include:  Poo-bah, pooey,
shithead (yes - I know a couple like that), doofus, etc. - but there
must be deep mutual agreement and enjoyment (verified weekly) that
these are working.  If you choose to use pooey or shithead - be
prepared for some real ups and downs - but some great sex, actually, or
so I'm told (we're hopelessly sappy here, we use:  Hunnybunny (before
Pulp Fiction came out), Babe, Sweetie, Babuh, Pookie (rarely) and wish
we had more.

And at least ONCE a week:

1.  Run her a bath (or similar)
2.  Get her a gossip magazine to go with the bath (or similar - golf
magazine if that's her thing, my sister wants American Horseman).
3.  Not only INQUIRE but SHOW THAT YOU HAVE INVESTED TIME IN LEARNING
ABOUT some physical complaint, ailment, trait, pain, cramp, follicle
problem, eyelash curling technique - something she considers bodily.
This means that you remember what she said last week (I realize that
her complaint may be over - but do not give into the popular view that
it's a Voodoo hex to bring things up to a woman, believe me, we're not
as histrionic and crazy as some would like to think).  Just show her
you kept track - and after awhile me, if you live long enough, there
will be whole round of these "physical topic checkists" that MUST be
gotten out of the way if the woman is feel really sexual (think about
it).  Use your computer, find some article or TIP about this topic and
make like a mensch and share it with your darling.

So - how are you doing on these scores?  What I really want from you is
a much better description of your married culture - what kinds of
things you do to try and improve this situation or inquire into it -
what you think has worked in the past.

Okay - this is where you REALLY need to go to that other board.  I've
been in your shoes - and I'm a girl.  It can go the other way - trust
me.  I always envy guys on this one - everyone knows you're supposed to
have the higher drive (but the fact that you have a second kid speaks
volumes about her actual sex drive, in my view).

Now, I'm assuming that you only jack off about once a week or so -
that's how people start out, usually - and then they get to feeling
(justifiably) REALLY strange about jacking off (secretly) while hoping
their spouse will get amorous, while WANTING their spouse.

Just remember, the above biochemical details can work in reverse.
Slowly, you're amping up your own sex drive, creating more and more of
those sex drive chemicals - while doing absolutely nothing (apparently)
to rev up the girl system.  The girl system can be hard to understand,
it's true.  However, you may be feeling weird about the growing
disparity.  Word up:  try not to masturbate - and you'll be
masturbating about the right amount.

Which is to say you should masturbate SOME or you'll both go down the
tubes, sexually, and I think such people make really wretched role
models and parents for their later-to-be adolescent and grown up
children.

So - keep it to a minimum AND...tough part...try to keep her involved
in it.  If you present it in a sexy way - or are earnest in explaining
- you need to get her to see what you just told us - the public.

You'd prefer the real thing.  You might also mention to her that you
hope to go in the other direction - one day - but that you'd like even
more sex than one time a week (say that you would - even if right now
you'd settle for once a week - and go to that other site for the
reasoning behind this).

Masturbate in front of her.  Seriously.  Now - what would happen if you
did?  Is she into that mode of "eewwww"?  If so - that's what we, here,
need to know to help more.  You'll get insulted by some people for
giving details - but it will be far easier to do it here (as you know)
than with your woman.

Okay - so you do know that I did NOT mean that you whip it out at
dinner, right?  You run her a bath, then you're wearing your silk
boxers - you can be a bit spontaneous (no underwear at all), and you
touch yourself - and ask her just what she expects a guy to do when day
after day observing a very sexy but tired looking woman?  If she looks
absolutely horrified - do not interpret that as a Total No.  Look sad
and then discuss this in, oh - about the amount of time it takes for
another bath to occur.

I have more.  Obviously, I would tailor this entire scenario more if I
knew you better - and there are people here who are better at this than
me - but they need the details, too.

If it turns out that it's just you and your fist for the rest of your
life - I'd say different things - but, you don't know that yet - and
frankly, such an event is (in my experience and according to what I've
heard) extremely rare.  Erotic self-stimulation can be an enriching
backdrop to an otherwise satisfying adult marital relationship (and so
on) - but let's not lose focus.

You have an obligation to keep your sex drive alive.  I think anything
less than once a week is not common sensical - it would be like not
washing your hands before eating.  She has an obligation to come up to
your level (once a week - and you could then add in a fist for a pretty
dandy sex life, actually).  You need the intimacy and the valuing and
the adoration that good sex enduces, my friend - that's why the effort.

Be sure and keep yourself in shape (that doesn't mean washboard abs -
or even any other mass-enduced attractive trait), keep healthy -
seriously.  Eat well, exercise some, make sure the kids go to bed EVERY
SINGLE NIGHT (except when Daddy says or on Saturdays) at the same time.
Daddy winks at mommy when he imposes this condition...it's
Christmas...you can do it!

If it's intimidating to provide really personal details - start with
simple stuff, like:

What music does she listen to?  ....or did listen to?
What's her favorite perfume?
Is the kind of girl that wears violet eyeshadow or not?  Or do you
know?  Does she know?
When was her last manicure - if any?  Does she self-manicure?

You know - what kind of woman is she (and continue to work on that
woman/girl distinction - women often need a synthesis of adolescent and
adult sexual juju to get things going - just exactly like men do).

Warmest regards,

Atalanta.

265~LOP/P.UnSpd/unedit,FairlyX;total~140;OPtoMr=1:2

I am wondering over here why this - having sex only once a month - was
perfectly fine with you, back then? I suspect you'll probably tell me
something like, "I love her and my love wasn't all about sex." If so,
now maybe you see the fallacy in that: love naturally leads to a desire
for regular, passionate sex with the person you love.

I would like you also to consider that maybe you are just as much of an
intimate-phobe as the person you married? She has a legitimate reason
to be phobic: she was raped. What is *your* reason?

Perhaps this is exactly WHY you married her in the first place? Because
she was never going to demand more in bed from you, and thus make you
feel more anxious and fearful about sex than you already were?

Unfortunately in her mind perhaps showing how much you love her has
nothing to do with sex. But if you can find out what *is* important to
her, and what translates into her feeling loved by you, then perhaps
you can negotiate.

Is it enough that she has sex, or must she also be as interested in it
as you are? This is an important question.

Despite recent thread to the contrary, I think Schnarch's Passionate
Marriage would be good req'd reading for you both. Also Dr Lerner's
Fear and Other Uninvited Guests, as well as her book Dance of Intimacy,
to help you understand anxiety and the role it plays for both you and
your DW when it comes to your sex life.

I don't think there are any quick fixes. This is going to be a journey
for you. Work on yourself, that's all you can really do. Work on
becoming brave and confident and dispelling any of your own lingering
phobias about intimacy. And do it for you - not hoping to be a role
model for your own wife, hoping she'll get a clue and address her own
fears.

Realize that you can't really "fix" her or "change" her. Only she can
do that for herself, in any lasting way. I am guessing that your sex
life initially improved to once-a-month, because you had willingly and
enthusiastically taken her on as your "project," and she was a willing
participant in that goal, as long as you did most of the work?

But now maybe she is not as willing and open, or maybe you are not as
enthusiastic about having to do all the work so hard again, only to
have all your previous gains slip away like it has. I don't blame you
in that, frankly. I would have a hard time always having to "work" at
trying to change or improve my partner. The relationship maybe...
myself, sure! But not my partner. That is just a set-up for my own
frustration and disappointment at best, my partner's resentment and
ill-feelings at worse.

Whatever you do, be careful not to throw yourself full-throttle into
another extensive, time-consuming Pygmalion Project (i.e., trying to
fix your wife). If you find yourself doing that, stop and ask yourself
if it is only a convenient way for you to focus your attention away
from the real issues: yourself, and exploring your own intimacy
phobias.

You need to find out why you are an intimate phobe. As painful as
exploring that question may be, that is the most important thing you
can do, if you want a permanent solution to this problem. And really,
the only thing you *can* do.... because we can't change anyone else but
ourselves.

jen