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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / December 2006Married too soon??? Now what?
Good afternoon, I am new to this page as I have found myself in a bit of a predicament. I'm hoping that someone out there can empathize. In August of this year my boyfriend and I found out that I was pregnant. We had been good friends for years but had only just begun dating again a couple of months prior. We both felt it important that we be married before the baby was born so we got married in October. The day after the wedding, I miscarried the baby. I really love him, but I feel like we rushed into this. And without parenthood pending, we are discovering things about each other that, in time, we would have found to be problems, dealbreakers even, if we had just been dating. I know that he is committed to making the marriage work, but I am feeling suffocated and unhappy. After only two months!! How pathetic am I? I feel that deep down, if I hadn't been pregnant, we wouldn't have gotten married. I find myself telling myself just to stick it out through the year. This, of course, makes me feel terrible. He can tell that something is amiss, which makes him feel bad. I know that every new couple should expect some growing pains, but how do you tell the difference between growing pains and a marriage that just wasn't meant to be? Thanks in advance for your help. LS > I find myself telling myself just to stick it out through the year. > This, of course, makes me feel terrible. He can tell that something [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > between > growing pains and a marriage that just wasn't meant to be? It seems that a *lot* of emotional things have happened to you in the past few months. I think that taking some time apart to think things through is a good idea. Zorra I think that it is common for people to have crisis either before or after the wedding - an adjustment to the idea of being married. "how do you tell the difference between growing pains and a marriage that just wasn't meant to be?" You don't - or more precisely, depends on the limit you set. Some people will stive to remain married regardless, and may endure unhappy lives. Others will divorce at the first difference of point of view, and in turn may not be much happier that the first crowd, despite of the 10 marriges he/she went thru. There is probably an optimum point - but it is difficult to know (my guess is that if both partners are just giving up, that is a pretty bad signal - and that is not where you are: you say that your husband is committed to making the marriage work, also it seems that you face doubts rather than being willing to give up). From what I see, you likely haven't reached the point at which it is best to leave. You likely face a temporary crisis {those doubts are quite natural I would say} - and I think that it is more common than you think. What you need is a lot of communication with your husband ; speak together about the things that bug you, and hopefully you'll be happilly married a few months down the road. Speak with him .... you will find solutions and understand each other > Good afternoon, > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Thanks in advance for your help. > LS Thank you for your input. I have found this insightful and optimistic. Do you think in a situation like this, that one can receive and comprehend a conversation about the doubts as concerns from the one partner about the nature of the relationship, not as putdowns regarding the character or behavior of the other? > I think that it is common for people to have crisis either before or > after the wedding - an adjustment to the idea of being married. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > LS > Thank you for your input. I have found this insightful and optimistic. > Do you think in a situation like this, that one can receive and > comprehend a conversation about the doubts as concerns from the one > partner about the nature of the relationship, not as putdowns regarding > the character or behavior of the other? Try framing the conversation using "I" or "our relationship" sentences, instead of "you" sentences, and that should help. The way I look at it, you have nothing to lose by being honest. Honesty creates the best relationships. Try it. If your DH cannot handle your honesty about your feelings, doubts and concerns, then you have a very good reason to doubt that the marriage will thrive. A good marriage relies on two people being able to be honest with each other. Of course you be nice and don't fling put-downs and criticisms. Criticisms quickly erode good feelings. But there is a big difference between "I have doubts about your character" and "I have doubts about whether we married in haste - do we have what it takes to make a great marriage over the long haul?" Can you see the difference? Also bear in mind that you just suffered a major blow with the miscarriage. Your hormones are probably all out of whack. You may not know your own mind now. But yeah, you may not have known your own mind when you got pregnant and decided to marry either. It's a tough one! Please know that you are not a failure if you decide to divorce and cut your losses now. Better now, then a bunch of miserable years later. And whatever you do, USE BIRTH CONTROL. Do not let another pregnancy make your decision again for you. The best marriages are a choice. Your choice this time was made for you because you found yourself pregnant. This is why you are now having your doubts - this was not your choice, it was fate's choice for you. If you don't divorce, you will never be content in this relationship until you make the choice that it's the right marriage for you. Yes, take some time to get over the blow of the miscarriage, but do not hang long in endless indecision. Indecision has done more damage to marriages. Either decide to cut your losses and get out, or decide to stay and want to make it work with all your heart. jen Thank you for your input. I have found this insightful and optimistic. Do you think in a situation like this, that one can receive and comprehend a conversation about the doubts as concerns from the one partner about the nature of the relationship, not as putdowns regarding the character or behavior of the other? > I think that it is common for people to have crisis either before or > after the wedding - an adjustment to the idea of being married. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > LS That is indeed a risk. Both of you have to be open and take this as a chance to improve your relationship and above all respect the other person's perspective. If such discussions, both partners should ready to forget their respective perspectives to really gain an insight on the other person's perspective. If your husband is willing to make your marriage work, then he likely would agree with that. Also, when discussing issues, try to state things objectively. If subjectivity enters into the discussion, it can quickly become judgmental. If those conditions are not all there, couples go to marital counseling. Having a third party acting as a mediator can then help keeping the discussion in a constructive focus. > Thank you for your input. I have found this insightful and optimistic. > Do you think in a situation like this, that one can receive and > comprehend a conversation about the doubts as concerns from the one > partner about the nature of the relationship, not as putdowns regarding > the character or behavior of the other? Sommer, My wife and I got married in a hurry, too. It was just over 33 years ago that we married for the sake of the baby. Were we too young? Without a doubt! Would we have married if she weren't pregnant? Probably not! You have just had two very stressfull and emotionally draining things happen. Fisrt is the loss of your "freedom" through marriage. The second, of course, is the loss of a child, even though one you never got to meet. Either one of those events could have a huge impact on your state of mind. The two together, to me it seems, could be devestating. Have you talked to your Dr about the possibilty of anti-depresants? Do you have a support system you can count on? (Friends, family, a pastor, etc) If you would like to give youre marriage a chance, I suggest that you go to www.marriagebuilders.com Read the basic concepts first, then see what else you can find to read that may be of interest. There are many topical discussion forums that you may post to with questions, but be sure you read the basics first. You say that there are things that you have found out that would have prevented you from getting married, had you not been pregnant, but they didn't stop you from having sex with this guy, so maybe, they are the types of things all couples find out about each other after they have gotten married. Just my $.02. Mark > Good afternoon, > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > expect some growing pains, but how do you tell the difference between > growing pains and a marriage that just wasn't meant to be? Here is something that should go without saying: Don't get pregnant again! Having said that, you're young, he's young. There is no good reason (IMO) to stay married just because you _are_ married. Somehow you need to figure out if you _want_ to be married, and like Olivier says, you need to be talking to each other in order to figure that out. I'm curious about what sorts of things you are finding out that would have been dealbreakers. I'm also curious about how old you are, and where you are (for example, in terms of education and career) in your lives. Please do not equate my hasty marriage with general immaturity. While I am only 25, I completed my degree early and have been working in my career field for nearly 5 years, I own my home, and have no student or credit card debt. I am generally a very responsible person. (More back story is in order I suppose...) I lost my father two years ago to Diabetic complications which they attributed to the Agent Orange he handled in Vietnam as a Marine. My father was one of the vets that came home incredibly different than when he left. His health was failing for most of my life and, therefore, he thought it best to keep a safe difference from me in an attempt to make his death easier. While I know that he loved me and was proud of me, he never showed any outward display of that. My husband, 43, also a diabetic--Type 1 which is genetic not life-style induced, leads a similar life in terms of profession and personal career decisions as my father. He had never been married before and told me many times--we've been close friends for many years--that he was happy as a bachelor and didn't see that status changing. I've gathered from what little understanding I have of the human psyche, that my "attaining the unattainable, older bachelor" serves as some sort of replacement for the affection that I never received from my dying father. One of these problems we've encountered that I mentioned yesterday is my fear that I will have to experience the "Diabetic Decline", as I say, a second time. This nerve damage, blindness, infection, and amputation while not inevitable, is a definate possiblity regardless of what kind of shape the person is in. Which in this case is great, my husband is a former pro golfer and still runs marathons. I don't think that anyone should have to lose a loved one, or go through that pain, twice in their life. Now that I see so many similarities between my husband and my father, I have a hard time putting that past me in terms of our sexual relationship. This plus the stress of the miscarriage, not to mention the 10 pounds that came from the stress/depression of the miscarriage, has really affected this area of our relationship. Which of course is a dealbreaker for him. So I'm guessing that any psychology buffs out there will attest that I am a mess. But at least I can see the source of the problem, right? LS > > Good afternoon, > > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > where you are (for example, in terms of education and career) in your > lives. "So I'm guessing that any psychology buffs out there will attest that I am a mess" I don't think that you are a mess. Actually I think that in order to deserve the "mess" qualificative, one would have to be completely ignorant about him/herself (btw, we got an example of it recently on this forum cf post "Living Together (or not)") - which clearly isn't your case. Now, you just need to use that understanding to make the best out of your life. However, I would say that any psychology buffs would attest that any girl (unconsciously) looks for an husband that resembles her father. (likewise, any boy looks for a wife that resembles his mother) > So I'm guessing that any psychology buffs out there will attest that I > am a mess. But at least I can see the source of the problem, right? You just told us everything on the "should I go" side of the equation. Now tell us what's on the "should I stay" side. What is good about this relationship? What works? What do you admire about this man? What about him makes him a good choice in partner for you? Make a list. You can start with "we've been friends a long time" because I noted that in your original post. That's a plus. Also you might get something out of the book, "Too bad to stay, Too good to leave" (or something like that... the title is in the FAQ). jen > Please do not equate my hasty marriage with general immaturity. While > I am only 25, I completed my degree early and have been working in my [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > LS You have had a lot of good advice here, and I am not going to repeat it. But there is something I haven't seen suggested yet, so I am going to throw it out to you. You alude to some psychological issues you have from your childhood and your relationship with your father. I think it is likely that these _do_ bear on your feelings about your marriage. Your self-awareness is really commendable, but I think you might benefit from exploring these issues with a psychologist. It is possible that your feelings have more to do with your father than your husband. If so, then this is a problem you may need to solve individually, and I think it would be a good idea to get some help with it. By the way, in my marriage this same issue has cropped up from time to time. My wife sometimes gets upset with me when I do things that remind her of things her father did. I get blamed for things he did when she was a child. I wind up having to remind her that I am not her father. I think in any marriage there is a Father - Mother relationship overlayed with the Husband - Wife relationship. We all carry baggage from our childhoods. The fact that you see this in your marriage shouldn't necessarily cause alarm bells to sound. It is fairly normal. The issue is how you prevent what happened in the past from messing up what is happening in the present. That is where a psychologist might be able to help you. > You have had a lot of good advice here, and I am not going to repeat > it. But there is something I haven't seen suggested yet, so I am going [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > from messing up what is happening in the present. That is where a > psychologist might be able to help you. I'm glad you brought this up. I was also mulling this over, but with a different angle. I was thinking that perhaps this is a "Dance of Intimacy" issue (I'm referring to the book by the same title by Dr Harriet Lerner). That is, a fear of intimacy with her new husband, who may die on her someday. The deeper we become intimate with someone (and getting married certainly qualifies), the greater the risk for hurt should that person 1) reject us 2) leave us or 3) die before we do. My advice is pretty simple: we *all* die someday. His diabetes aside, he could get hit by a car tomorrow. But there is great reward in loving someone and becoming ever more intimate with them *despite* this fact. jen -snip- > Now that I see so many similarities between my husband and my father, I > have a hard time putting that past me in terms of our sexual > relationship. This plus the stress of the miscarriage, not to mention > the 10 pounds that came from the stress/depression of the miscarriage, > has really affected this area of our relationship. Which of course is > a dealbreaker for him. -snip- Exactly what is the deal breaker here? - The stress/depression of miscarriage? - The extra 10 pounds? - Loss of sexual desire? A permanent or long lasting loss of sexual desire is a form of abandonment, and is justifiable grounds for divorce, IMO. But the stress, depression and 10 pounds should not be a deal breaker for anyone that you would really want to spend your life with. Larry G. I have never been fulfilled by sexual intamcy. IMO, it can be a big hassle. I am not one of those unfortuante women who cannot reach orgasm, nor is there anything resembling sexual abuse in my past. I just think there is a disconnect whereas I am generally disinterested and usually unable to become aroused. In this particular case, I keep normal hours, and my husband works nights. We only have two nights where we are home at night together, and I feel that puts extra pressure on me for those nights to include sex. (I would not be receptive to him waking me up for it when he gets home at 2am because 1) my job requires a great deal of mental freshness and preparedness which I need sleep to achieve and 2) I just don't turn on and off that way.) My weight gain is a problem for me, not him. He loves me regardless. I feel unattractive and while I cannot speak for all women, but it's difficult to act sexy when you don't feel sexy. I feel he can't possibly understand becuase his diabetic diet and general body type inherently allow him to stay very thin. I find it is easier to be motivated to work out when you already feel good about yourself. When you feel fat, you want to stay home and watch tv. He is trying to be very supportive, he even offered to train with me for his next marathon (which i have repeatedly mentioned that I have NO interest in) but he has also said "then get off your a.s and do something" which is not the kind of tough-love that I respond to. As far as sex goes, I could sort of take it or leave it. He says he needs that kind of closeness to be a part of the relationship. I'm not saying that I never want to have sex, but when we only see each other two days a week, it's easy to let weeks go by without any intimate contact. But the more I can see he wants it, the less and less I want to do it. Girls, can anyone else relate? LS > -snip- > > Now that I see so many similarities between my husband and my father, I [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- > I have never been fulfilled by sexual intamcy. IMO, it can be a big > hassle. I am not one of those unfortuante women who cannot reach [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > contact. But the more I can see he wants it, the less and less I want > to do it. I'm not a girl, and I can't exactly relate. But given what you've just told us, you might get something out of reading Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage" - regardless of whether you stay married to your guy. > My weight gain is a problem for me, not him. He loves me regardless. > I feel unattractive and while I cannot speak for all women, but it's [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > has also said "then get off your a.s and do something" which is not the > kind of tough-love that I respond to. <snip> > Girls, can anyone else relate? I can relate to both you and your DH here. Like you, I don't feel very sexy when I gain weight. This past year, I rapidly gained about 15 lbs or so when I started a new medicine and *also* quit smoking. I am 41 so a slowing metabolism may also be playing a role here. I've been having the worse time trying to lose this 15 lbs. It's just not budging. None of my clothes fit right and I was feeling very unattractive. But I also relate to your DH, and "getting off your a.s to do something" is actually a valid bit of advice! This is what I did for myself, instead of continuing to whine and sigh. About 6 months ago, I started walking nearly every day. I got up to one hour a day, and even longer on weekends when my DH would walk with me. My energy levels started to rebound, even if the scale remained stubbornly at the same place. A few months ago, I started interspersing short bouts of running into my walking. I increased the amount and now I am running 30 minutes every other day. Well, I feel *fabulous!* I am getting cheekbones again and the second chin that was starting to emerge is disappearing. I still have a flabby stomach but there's definetly muscle underneath it. My butt is even sliding back into the perky place it used to be in my 20s and early 30s. Clothes are fitting better but I still have a ways to go on that. The scale is still not budging, however, I feel strong, capable, fit, and I have tons more energy these days. Exercise has greatly improved my mood and outlook on everything, including work: after setting a goal and completing it, I come home and feel I can conquer anything. And, my sex drive is back in full force. I feel sexy and attractive once again, despite the number on the scale and the size on the clothes label! I am getting in touch with my body. The exercise has also been a wonderful way of relieving stress, and it is tremendous mental therapy too. Getting yourself out for a walk every day may do you wonders as well. You do not need to do this for your DH - do it for *yourself.* I now look forward to that 30 minutes every other day as a treat for myself. You don't need to run a marathon. You don't even need to run. Just get out and walk. Get yourself a dose of sunshine. Breathe in some fresh air. Walk at a brisk pace. Listen to music that you enjoy. Let your mind drift and daydream. After awhile, it is truly addictive. You won't miss the t.v. and the couch. If you are having trouble getting started, ask your DH to drag you out for a walk at a regular time each day. After about 6 weeks, it'll become a habit. I'm still walking about once a week with my DH. We'll ramble all over our town for up to two, sometimes three hours, when the weather is nice. We'll stop on the way for a meal, combine our shopping errands, etc. We go at a strolling pace and use the time to visit and catch up. It's a good way to connect. jen > I have never been fulfilled by sexual intamcy. IMO, it can be a big > hassle. I am not one of those unfortuante women who cannot reach [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and preparedness which I need sleep to achieve and 2) I just don't turn > on and off that way.) That, I can understand very well! > My weight gain is a problem for me, not him. He loves me regardless. > I feel unattractive and while I cannot speak for all women, but it's > difficult to act sexy when you don't feel sexy. I relate to that too. > I feel he can't > possibly understand becuase his diabetic diet and general body type > inherently allow him to stay very thin. Are you saying that because he is thin he cannot understand that you feel uncomfortable with your weight? > I find it is easier to be > motivated to work out when you already feel good about yourself. When > you feel fat, you want to stay home and watch tv. Hmmmm I have a little trouble understanding this. No, I take it back! I DO understand that if you feel a goal is too hard to achieve you lose motivation to work towards it, but I have trouble understanding that 10 pounds of extra weight would do that. If I had 10 extra pounds to lose I'd be up and doing whatever I could to lose it - because I feel I *can* do it. > He is trying to be > very supportive, he even offered to train with me for his next marathon > (which i have repeatedly mentioned that I have NO interest in) but he > has also said "then get off your a.s and do something" which is not the > kind of tough-love that I respond to. What kind of "tough-love" would you respond to? It seems like he has tried the supportive way and that doesn't work for you either, right? What do you need to feel motivated to do what *you* want for yourself? So far it sounds to me like you feel fat, don't like it, because of feeling fat don't feel motivated to do anything to get unfat, don't respond to your husband's supportive methods or tough-love methods, and are not able to get over your feelings about that extra 10 pounds and feel good about yourself the way you are! In other words you have put yourself in a locked box without any way to get out. > As far as sex goes, I could sort of take it or leave it. Well, if you can take it or leave it why don't you "take" it?! I hear you saying that you can actually enjoy sex and it's not something that you *dislike*. Then why not look at it as something that you are simply *less* interested than your husband and take some satisfaction in the fulfillment that you give him? I never suggest to anyone to regularly have sex when they don't want to. But yours seem to be a mindset issue more than disliking sex with your husband. > He says he > needs that kind of closeness to be a part of the relationship. I very much understand and relate to him -- and I am a girl! > I'm not > saying that I never want to have sex, but when we only see each other > two days a week, it's easy to let weeks go by without any intimate > contact. Yes, that is a problem for you guys. Is there anyway to change your work schedules? Forget about sex. To me not being able to relax together at the end of the day, catch up with our daily activities, perhaps watching some TV together and going bed together (I mean figuratively, my husband and I often go to bed at different times, but we know we are *there* and don't feel alone) would be a huge burden on our marriage. > But the more I can see he wants it, the less and less I want > to do it. This, I can not relate to at all. But that may be because doing something that my husband wants is a great source of pleasure for me. No, I don't mean that I'd do whatever he wants even if I don't like doing it at all. What I mean is that, in general, seeing him happy is one of those things that makes me happy. > Girls, can anyone else relate? Well, I guess my answer is yes and no! So far it sounds to me like you feel fat, don't like it, because of > feeling fat don't feel motivated to do anything to get unfat, don't > respond to your husband's supportive methods or tough-love methods, and > are not able to get over your feelings about that extra 10 pounds and > feel good about yourself the way you are! In other words you have put > yourself in a locked box without any way to get out. YES, I suppose that's about where I'm at. And when you spell it out that way, it makes me look like a big baby!! Are you saying that because he is thin he cannot understand that you > feel uncomfortable with your weight? Yes, I do feel that he cannot empathize. What kind of "tough-love" would you respond to? It seems like he has > tried the supportive way and that doesn't work for you either, right? > What do you need to feel motivated to do what *you* want for yourself? I'm an only child so I think I feel most accomplished when I complete goals by myself without any assistance. I paid for college all by myself, bought my home all by myself, moved across the world all alone. I think if he would just let the issue rest, I would feel better about getting back to the shape I'd like to be in on my own terms. I find his encouragement patronizing. Even if that is not his intention, which it isn't, I am too stubborn to see otherwise perhaps. > > I have never been fulfilled by sexual intamcy. IMO, it can be a big > > hassle. I am not one of those unfortuante women who cannot reach [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > > Well, I guess my answer is yes and no! > Are you saying that because he is thin he cannot understand that you > >>feel uncomfortable with your weight? > > Yes, I do feel that he cannot empathize. What, exactly, he cannot empathize with? That you don't like being fat or that you are not motivated to do what it takes to get thin? My guess is that he does empathize with your desire to lose weight but feels frustrated because all you are doing is be upset about it. I bet if you took some steps to make yourself happier he'd be understanding. > What kind of "tough-love" would you respond to? It seems like he has > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I think if he would just let the issue rest, I would feel better about > getting back to the shape I'd like to be in on my own terms. Have you told him that? What would he say if you showed him the above paragraph? > I find > his encouragement patronizing. Even if that is not his intention, > which it isn't, I am too stubborn to see otherwise perhaps. Then you do have a solution. Just need to find a way to implement it. Tell him, nicely and lovingly, that you need to take care of this on your own and ask him to be patient with you and support you in your efforts. But that can only work if it accompanies *your* understanding of his need too, and the desire to fulfill them. > I have never been fulfilled by sexual intamcy. IMO, it can be a big > hassle. I am not one of those unfortuante women who cannot reach > orgasm, nor is there anything resembling sexual abuse in my past. I > just think there is a disconnect whereas I am generally disinterested > and usually unable to become aroused. Your earlier posts showed a great deal of insight into your current situation and how it developed from your past, centering on an emotionally distant and inaccessible father. It is my understanding that the father-daughter relationship sets the tone for later husband-wife expectations and behaviors. You may want to discuss this with a personal counselor to see how this difficulty in your life can be overcome. Failing to do this is bound to affect your relationships with men, whether you stay with this one or move on to others. There is no sense in repeating the same situation and expecting different results. It may well be that your past is what drew you into this relationship in the first place. Best of luck, Larry G. LAMPS www.loveandmarriageseminars.com > A permanent or long lasting loss of sexual desire is > a form of abandonment, and is justifiable grounds for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > be a deal breaker for anyone that you would really > want to spend your life with. Nor should a temporary and situational dip in the libido department, which he would have surely had to cope with had the pregnancy gone to term. >> A permanent or long lasting loss of sexual desire is >> a form of abandonment, and is justifiable grounds for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > which he would have surely had to cope with had the pregnancy gone to > term. Yes, most new fathers don't expect many of the consequences of a new member of the family. Which in turn leads to further difficulties. Cheers, Larry G. LAMPS www.loveandmarriageseminars.com So, Let's recap, for my own sake: While you all have differing opinions on what the call to action should be, no one seems to think that my concerns are way out of line. This is very reassuring to me and helps ease the guilt I was harboring about feeling discontent so soon. And although the fat discussion sort of got away from me, (I'm not fat, just not at the peak of my game right now) I have returned to the gym for (as often as possible) workouts. I have also contacted a therapist in my area for a consultation. I have decided that I need to work through some of my own feelings before my husband and I can productively tackle the problems in our path. Whether or not this is the right time and place for me to be married, I am stating--to you and to myself--to give due diligence to the issues before me. I promise to keep an open mind and actively listen to my husband and his concerns whilst staying true to the values that make me, well, me. Thank you all for your input and your concern. Leah > >> A permanent or long lasting loss of sexual desire is > >> a form of abandonment, and is justifiable grounds for [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----http://www.newsfeeds.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- > So, Let's recap, for my own sake: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > just not at the peak of my game right now) I have returned to the gym > for (as often as possible) workouts. Hey, if you think that thread got away from you, we can show you things here! > I have also contacted a therapist in my area for a consultation. I > have decided that I need to work through some of my own feelings before [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > husband and his concerns whilst staying true to the values that make > me, well, me. I'm glad you are taking steps, and good luck. > So, Let's recap, for my own sake: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > before my husband and I can productively tackle the problems in our > path. That is a very good plan. > Whether or not this is the right time and place for me to be married, > I am stating--to you and to myself--to give due diligence to the > issues before me. I promise to keep an open mind and actively listen > to my husband and his concerns whilst staying true to the values that > make me, well, me. Whatever happens to you as a couple you'll both benefit from your measured and thoughtful approach to this. Good luck! Tai >Good afternoon, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >How pathetic am I? I feel that deep down, if I hadn't been pregnant, >we wouldn't have gotten married. But that's true, isn't it? It doesn't necessarily mean that the marriage is a mistake, but it does mean that you would have done things differently had circumstances been different. In a way, you're lucky. If this marriage IS a mistake, you can get out of it without damaging consequences to children. But maybe it's not. Every relationship has problems, things that may or may not turn out, ultimately, to be deal breakers. You could end this relationship and hunt for one with no issues... but you might spend all your live doing that, and in the process lose someone you say you love. Before I did that, I'd seriously consider marriage counseling and actively working on the relationship, wholeheartedly. And see what happens. Hey there, I feel some of your pain. I got married this last June and it seems to have been rushed. I found out some things this last month that could make or break this marriage but the way I look at it is that it is a trial/error deal and no for-sures. If in six months nothing changes then we can break up or wait another 6 months depending on the amount of change. Marriage doesn't mean forever it means relationship, which means things still can and need to be worked out. I am hopeful as you should be, but don't look too far into the future just a few days at a time or a month or two and see where that goes. Just some friendly advice, Pete Everything that has been said here over the past couple days as someone that will be new to this "marriage" thing is scary. How do you get through the ups and downs especially when you partner some how put her family before you... The advice given to you is good think about it long and hard Regards Everything that has been said here over the past couple days as someone that will be new to this "marriage" thing is scary. How do you get through the ups and downs especially when you partner some how put her family before you... The advice given to you is good think about it long and hard Regards > Everything that has been said here over the past couple days as someone > that will be new to this "marriage" thing is scary. > > How do you get through the ups and downs especially when you partner > some how put her family before you... Loyalty (to family, friends and former collegues) is one of the more common reasons for disputes in marriage.* (* William Betcher, MD. "The Seven Basic Quarrels Of Marriage") If you try to pit your wife's loyalty to you, against her loyalty to her family, expect to lose. Compare how long your wife has known you, to how long she has known, trusted, and survived with her family. Then ask yourself, if you really need to compete with her family for your wife's attention and affection. If so, why? Cooperation and harmony may be better options. Marriage is a package deal. When you marry a person, you marry her family as well, along with all of the benefits, and all of the problems. Perhaps they didn't tell you that in your marriage preparation course, but it is true. Cheers, Larry G. LAMPS www.loveandmarriageseminars.com Everything that has been said here over the past couple days as someone that will be new to this "marriage" thing is scary. How do you get through the ups and downs especially when you partner some how put her family before you... The advice given to you is good think about it long and hard Regards Everything that has been said here over the past couple days as someone that will be new to this "marriage" thing is scary. How do you get through the ups and downs especially when you partner some how put her family before you... The advice given to you is good think about it long and hard Regards > Good afternoon, > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Thanks in advance for your help. > LS Yes, I can empathize, as can others. You have already had three good responses, but please indulge me to add my own. As others have pointed out, you've been on an emotional roller-coaster with your husband. You probably associate your situation and many of your bad feelings about it, with him, rightly so or not. This will be a major obstacle for any future happiness, and it is one that you must remove before going forward. Your posting seemed to solicit justifications for divorce. I would urge you to take no drastic actions until you come to much greater clarity about your life, your sexuality, your relationships, and your responsibility for all of them. If you weren't ready for parenthood, and the commitments it implies (to children and marriage) then you should not have engaged in unprotected sex. Getting married for the sake of a child is a noble sentiment, but it is putting the cart before the horse. Make no more babies until you are in a solid, stable, satifying marriage. Getting divorced now that there is no baby due is equally unwise. Second marriages are often repeats and echoes of the first. Take time to learn the lessons that this marriage can teach you. It should not be considered punishment, but opportunity. Write extensively in a journal, about your situation, your hopes for the future, and the shadows of the past which got you here. For the past year, I have been developing a marriage preparation seminar. The simplest guidance I can suggest is this: 1. Find out what you really want to accomplish in this life. (children, family, career, fame, fortune, adventure, etc.) 2. Find someone to help you achieve these goals. (You should be willing to provide them with assistance in attaining their goals as well. Ideally, these goals & lifestyles will be compatible.) 3. CREATE the best marriage you can. (see "The 6 Secrets of a Lasting Relationship" by Mark Goulston, MD). Once you reach clarity, decide if this marriage can help you reach your combined goals. If it can, stay married, and have babies if desired. If not, seek an amicable divorce, and get on with your lives. Best regards and sincere condolences, Larry G. LAMPS www.loveandmarriageseminars.com  SignatureFreedom is a terrible thing to waste! (Stop voting Republican.) > Good afternoon, > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > expect some growing pains, but how do you tell the difference between > growing pains and a marriage that just wasn't meant to be? I don't know of any cut-and-dried way to tell the difference between the usual ups-and-downs of a servicable relationship vs. the red flags of a marriage that you can pour years of your life into trying to make it good and just never make much progress. But I can tell you this: rushing into this marriage without knowing all the facts may not have been the right choice. But don't compound that mistake by rushing out of it without knowing all the facts. Getting married is a huge thing, and most people have many months or years to slowly ease into the idea. Likewise, losing the baby was a big thing that happened very quickly. It's all a lot to deal with in a short period of time. > I find myself telling myself just to stick it out through the year. > This, of course, makes me feel terrible. He can tell that something [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thanks in advance for your help. I think you should take some more time to get over your miscarriage before you make any more sudden decisions. Life has moved too quickly for you and, really, there's no huge hurry for you to leave is there? Have you considered going to marriage counselling to see if you can work out either a new basis for your continuing marriage now that the loss of your baby has left such a void or to decide, amicably, to part because one or both of you doesn't see a long term future together. I also think you should be honest with your husband about your feelings. Tai >> I find myself telling myself just to stick it out through the year. >> This, of course, makes me feel terrible. He can tell that something [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Tai I agree with everything Tai said. I have one more piece of advice: Forget about what coulda, shoulda, woulda happened if you hadn't got pregnant, hadn't married, hadn't miscarried. All of those things are hypotheticals that will do nothing but give you doubts, misgivings, and reasons/excuses for not dealing with the realities you now face. You are where you are. No amount of theorizing about how things would be IF xxx happened/didn't happen, are going to help you, your husband, or your marriage. Do you love him? Does he love you? Make the best of your situation and learn from it. And like Doug said, do not get pregnant again. That'll only add to your woes, not to mention your stress/emotions of already having to deal with the loss of your child. My sincere condolences on your loss.May God bless you, your family, and your marriage. Bo Yes, I definitely agree. The past is irrelevant - since nobody can change the past. You can only work from where you are now. > >> I find myself telling myself just to stick it out through the year. > >> This, of course, makes me feel terrible. He can tell that something [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Bo > Good afternoon, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > baby was born so we got married in October. The day after the wedding, > I miscarried the baby. I answered further down, but I wanted to relate two anecdotes. The first is a friend's daughter. Like you, she got pregnant at 18 and married the father. She miscarried, and decided to divorce the father. This was definetly the right decision for her; she was only 18. Now she is in her mid-20s, has her college degree, and recently got married to a different man who is a far better match for her. Then there's my parents. They married young, after only 3 months of courting. My mom wasn't pregnant, but the story is that great-grandma told my parents they'd better get married or they'd wind up that way! Sometime within the first year, the story goes, they woke up one day and both panicked. What had they gotten themselves into? Who was this person they married? What did they really know about each other? Had they made a mistake??? And they talked over their doubts together. And decided they'd give it a shot anyway! And they've now been married for 45 years. Very happily, I might add! My mother says that they've renewed that decision periodically throughout their marriage. They have never taken their commitment as a "given" but as a continual choice. Sometimes it can even be a day-to-day choice. The important thing is that it is a choice. When you feel you don't have that choice, you stop working at it. You are apt to resent the fate that you are "stuck" with. Indecision is an incredible waste of time, and torture to both the person suffering from it, and also to their partner. Resentment breeds and erodes any good feelings in the marriage. Your partner becomes the target of your resentment, which is wrong - it is your own lack of choice and feeling of being stuck that is really to blame. The marriage suffers. Divorce may become a self-fulfilling prophecy anyway. And then you're facing yet another path that you didn't choose. Don't be one of those miserable people. Take charge of your own fate, your own life. You'll find you are far more happy that way! Also consider that if you are now suddenly finding fault with your partner, it could actually be this misplaced resentment. You resent that you didn't get to make this choice. It's not your partners' fault, is it? It took the two of you to get pregnant, and the two of you to decide to marry as a result of that pregnancy. And the miscarriage was not anyone's fault. jen (rambling this morning, still groggy with sleep) > Good afternoon, > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > between > growing pains and a marriage that just wasn't meant to be? If the primary reason for having gotten married in the first place no longer exists, then why stay married? The longer you're in, the more difficult it'll be to get out. SignatureNOTICE: I regard everything which anyone posts in Usenet as nothing more than a work of fiction with no basis in fact or reality whatsoever. Every comment in every one of my posts is nothing more than a useless opinion or a wild speculation, and must never be taken seriously or as having any positive value to anyone for any reasons. I never assume that there's any more to a story than what I have read, no matter what else the author or anyone else may have posted anywhere. Be advised that my remarks are that of an ignorant layperson, and no one should ever base their decisions upon them under any circumstances. > If the primary reason for having gotten married in the first place no > longer exists, then why stay married? The longer you're in, the more > difficult it'll be to get out. To "AllYou!": So, according to your broken logic, if a girl marries a guy for the money, and later falls in love with him (after the wedding that is), she should divorce the guy she's in love with. Right? Ok, without going that far, if I marry a girl because she is a very good artist and then she stops liking arts. So, we should divorce (even if we both enjoy being together). Right? More generally, if one changes, people should divorce? (if people were to adopt your broken logic, the divorce rates should be way greater than they currently are) >> If the primary reason for having gotten married in the first place >> no [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > To "AllYou!": > So, according to your broken logic, Totally unprovoked insult noted. I only make this note so that if you, or anyone else subsequently whines that I've been rude to you, it'll be clear from where it emanates. > if a girl marries a guy for the > money, and later falls in love with him (after the wedding that is), > she should divorce the guy she's in love with. Right? No, that's not my logic, and only someone incapable of understanding the concept of context could possibly come to that silly conclusion. I responded as I did IN THIS CASE, because IN THIS CASE, the OP indicated that she is currently "feeling suffocated and unhappy". If she had said that in addition to loving him, she was also very happy, then my advice would not have been what it was. In fact, there would not have even been any reason for her to post. Duh. > Ok, without going that far, if I marry a girl because she is a very > good artist and then she stops liking arts. So, we should divorce > (even > if we both enjoy being together). Right? If one of you is "feeling suffocated and unhappy", then yes, silly. > More generally, if one changes, people should divorce? (if people > were > to adopt your broken logic, the divorce rates should be way greater > than they currently are) <sigh> How much more idiotic can you be? Let's all simmer down. I appreciate opinions from both sides of the fence. I agree that primary reason for our marriage no loner exists but that does not mean that I do not believe that new reasons cannot evolve. My general indecisiveness has never come from the thought that there is only one path that could make me happy, but from the thought that there are hundreds of paths that would make me happy. That I will constantly be second guessing whether there is a happier path that I missed along the way. I'm sure that I could be happy staying married, if I realy committed myself to it. We would have kids and go to Disneyland and I would stay in the same town in the same job. I also think that I would be happy as a single gal busting butt in my job to see what I could accomplish on my own. I would probably find a way to be happy building mud huts in Tibet--if I were confident that something else more intriguing wouldn't come along to distract me. I think that peole my age (newly out of college and on their own in the last 5-10 years let's say) have been socialized in a society of instant gratification. We move from job to job each year looking for the next big pay raise, instead of remaing loyal to one company for 20 or 30 years like our parents did. We want immediate happieness. My husband who is 17 years my senior, does not subscribe to this theory. Plus he's Catholic and Irish---he could live in unhappiness for the rest of his life. (Obviously kidding--please excuse and/or embrace my sarcasm) Can anyone relate to the many paths to happiness dilemma? > >> If the primary reason for having gotten married in the first place > >> no [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > <sigh> How much more idiotic can you be? >Can anyone relate to the many paths to happiness dilemma? Absolutely. Two pieces of advice: (1) Read "The Paradox of Choice"; I think that the author is Barry Schwartz, but I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment. (2) The world presents us with a dazzling array of things we could do, infinite possibilities, and it doesn't matter if you're 25 or 45. But at some point, you have to pick a path and decide to be happy with it, or you'll spend your life second-guessing yourself and thinking, if only.... (Which is all sort of generic life advice not specific to your marriage, but you could read it that way, too.) > >Can anyone relate to the many paths to happiness dilemma? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > (Which is all sort of generic life advice not specific to your > marriage, but you could read it that way, too.) > Let's all simmer down. I appreciate opinions from both sides of the > fence. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > be second guessing whether there is a happier path that I missed along > the way. Some of us are built that way. I am. So all I can do is make the best decisions on the information I have, and try to make the life I've built so far work well for me. I'll _never_ know for sure if I should have followed a different path! > I'm sure that I could be happy staying married, if I realy committed > myself to it. We would have kids and go to Disneyland and I would stay [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > his life. (Obviously kidding--please excuse and/or embrace my > sarcasm) 5 points for making me laugh! (Why is it that the italian Catholics get to enjoy life in the knoweldge they'll be forgiven, and the irish live in guilt and misery? Could it just have been nurtured by thousands of years in that miserable climate?) > Can anyone relate to the many paths to happiness dilemma? Sure. It is one of the reasons I was able to marry young. I didn't know what path my life would take yet, but was hopeful that I could make it a path that I was happy with. > Let's all simmer down. LOL! > I agree that primary reason for our marriage no loner exists but > that > does not mean that I do not believe that new reasons cannot evolve. And I never indicated that new reasons cannot evolve. But the issue here is whether or not it's realistic to marry someone wherein the are no reasons to get married, and then hope that "reasons evolve". Implicit in posting to this kind of NG is a request for opinions, and in my opinion, it's terribly chancy to marry someone and hope that reasons for it to work eventually develop. You may have heard this a thousand times, but it's very true that marriage is a very difficult proposition even under the best of circumstances. One glimpse through this NG should convince you that even the best of marriages go though the worst of times. For marriages to survive these trials, more often than not, it's love and commitment that get couples through. And what if no good reasons ever develop, but no bad reasons do either? What if it's just a matter wherein you each decide that there's no real reason to separate, and so you each live a life of going through the motions.? Should either of you settle for that? IMHO, if there is no overwhelming reason to be married, then don't be. >> Good afternoon, >> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > longer exists, then why stay married? The longer you're in, the more > difficult it'll be to get out. While that's true it's also true that she feels she loves him so it _may_ be more a matter of poor timing for them rather than a total mistake. It's too soon for either of them to know that, though, and they'll need to get past the loss of the future they expected to have first. I mean, they did decide to get married and there are several options they could have taken instead. Tai Do you think in a situation like this, that one can receive and comprehend a conversation about the doubts as concerns from the one partner about the nature of the relationship, not as putdowns regarding the character or behavior of the other? I think that this is the best measure. Can you two sit down and discuss these important thoughts you are having? Is there a clear channel for thoughts and feelings to be conveyed? You married for a reason which no longer exists, but the marriage remains. If you are worried about being honest, just END IT NOW. >>> Good afternoon, >>> [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > have first. I mean, they did decide to get married and there are > several options they could have taken instead. I can only go by what the OP posts, and she said that the primary reason for getting married was because of the child. Frankly, I don't know what "it's too soon to know" even means. The default situation in life is that we are single, and we should only choose to be married when we *know* that we've found the right one. We don't just marry anyone and then refrain from getting divorced until we *know* it's not going to work. For stated reasons, this couple finds themselves in the latter situation. They're married for what turns out to be no good reason, and yet you're suggesting that they keep together until they *know* that it won't work. That's inside out to me. Get out now before you do have a family, I promise having kids does not make it better, if your not whole heartedly in love I would get out of the marriage asap. > Good afternoon, > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Thanks in advance for your help. > LS > Get out now before you do have a family, I promise having kids does not > make it better, if your not whole heartedly in love I would get out of > the marriage asap. Being "in love" is a delusional state of mind in which one sees the world and those in it, not as they are, but as the lover would have it. I cannot think of a less accurate indicator of marital success, except maybe astrology or the assurance of a three-time divorcee. That being said, *genuine* (mature) love IS highly desirable in a marriage. It is a very real concern for the health and welfare of the partner, and goes a long way toward making sure that the marriage survives long enough to raise the children, or accomplish whatever other common goals and needs the couple might share. As to whether this "love" should exist before the marriage, or be "grown" during the marriage - is a matter of some debate. Cheers, Larry G. LAMPS www.loveandmarriageseminars.com SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! > > Get out now before you do have a family, I promise having kids does not > > make it better, if your not whole heartedly in love I would get out of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > indicator of marital success, except maybe astrology or the > assurance of a three-time divorcee. I don't think I agree with this. Maybe it is just a semantic difference, but I think you are describing infatuation, not being in love. > That being said, *genuine* (mature) love IS highly desirable > in a marriage. It is a very real concern for the health and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > or be "grown" during the marriage - is a matter of some > debate. Perhaps. But my suspicion is that it is hard to "grow it" during the marriage. Not so hard to deepen love which is already there, but very hard to start from nothing. > > > Get out now before you do have a family, I promise having kids does not > > > make it better, if your not whole heartedly in love I would get out of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > difference, but I think you are describing infatuation, not being in > love. Yeah, I didn't agree with it as written either. Marrying someone you aren't in love with seems like a really bad idea. > > That being said, *genuine* (mature) love IS highly desirable > > in a marriage. It is a very real concern for the health and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > marriage. Not so hard to deepen love which is already there, but very > hard to start from nothing. I don't personally think you can grow "in love" from nothing, though I think the marriage builder folks, who I like to cite a lot, would disagree and say it can. It does seem to be quite possible to return to a previous state of in-love if you don't wait to long or grind it down too much. >> > > Get out now before you do have a family, I promise having kids does >> not [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > a previous state of in-love if you don't wait to long or grind it down > too much. Emma, Doug: Since you had the same misgivings, it is easier to respond to you both in the same response. Twenty years ago, I would have cringed at the very thought of getting married without being "in love". Since then, a number of "facts" have come to my attention that has changed that. 1. Being "in love" just before the wedding has not be a useful factor in gaging the success (longevity or satisfaction) of marriages. 2. "In Love" (and infatuation) are chemically driven responses to fantasies which are based more on desires for the self, than on realistic appraisal of the beloved. 3. "In Love" (infatuation) is mostly ignorance about the partner, where gaps in real knowledge are filled in with infantile wish fullfillment delusions that a new parent/caretaker has come along to meet our every need, protect us, and tell us how wonderful we are, without no more effort on our part. 4. Genuine (mature) Love is just the opposite of infatuation. It requires extensive knowledge of the beloved. This in turn leads to empathy for our loved ones, and a desire to protect and nurture *them* in ways that they cannot (not *will not*) do for themselves. Where infatuation is childish, mature love is adultish. 5. Mature love requires respect for the beloved *and* for one's self. It requires empathy, responsible action, cooperation, and trust. In turn, it derives enjoyment, pleasure and satisfaction from an interaction that can be quite playful while still meeting each others needs and desires. Arranged marriages have been practiced around the world for thousands of years. Many learn how to love after they are married, since they aren't given much chance before. So it can and does happen. The overly hyped romantic love of western society is a fairly recent development. If you believe that this is normal, then think back on all of the images you have had thrown at you through television, movies, magazines and such. Odds are, those images of passionate, romantic encounters were used to transfer money from your pocket to someone else's. Being helplessly, recklessly, passionately in love, is essentially a one-way ticket to irresponsible conduct, regretable consequences and eventual confusion. If you have any "facts" of your own to counter these here, please bring them forth now. Cheers, Larry G. LAMPS www.loveandmarriageseminars.com SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! (snip) > 1. Being "in love" just before the wedding has not be a > useful factor in gaging the success (longevity or satisfaction) > of marriages. Do you have evidence that couples who are not in love before the wedding are just as likely to have satisfactory marriages as those who are? I'd be interested in learning about this. > 2. "In Love" (and infatuation) are chemically driven responses to > fantasies which are based more on desires for the self, than on > realistic appraisal of the beloved. Again, you can say this as often as you like. I belive being in love is distinct from infatuation. (snip more opinions) > If you have any "facts" of your own to counter these here, please > bring them forth now. But the "facts" you've just stated are simply your opinions. Do you want me to post my opinions and lable them facts too? That isn't likely to lead to greater enlightenment. > (snip) > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > wedding are just as likely to have satisfactory marriages as those who > are? I'd be interested in learning about this. Where I live, and in the jobs I've held over the years, I've had many opportunities to interact with people who are in arranged marriages. Most (all ?) were from India or nearby. They have told me that their country (and culture) has a very low divorce rate, because no emphasis is placed on the romantic love-before-marriage notions common in the west. Instead, their expectation is to grow to love their partner over the course of the marriage. Other factors that might work in their favor are that parents consult professional match makers, the prospective couple is introduced to each other when very young, and the kids grow up knowing what life has been planned for them. This may sound confining, but it is also liberating. If the kids don't like each other, the parents find someone else. Liking and respecting each other do seem to be universal elements in all successful and happy marriages. >> 2. "In Love" (and infatuation) are chemically driven responses to >> fantasies which are based more on desires for the self, than on >> realistic appraisal of the beloved. > > Again, you can say this as often as you like. I belive being in love > is distinct from infatuation. Please elaborate. How are they qualitatively different? I can believe that "in love" is a more sophisticated (and thus more deceptive) form of infatuation. But I would not think them "distinct" by any means. > (snip more opinions) > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > want me to post my opinions and lable them facts too? That isn't > likely to lead to greater enlightenment. You may post what you wish. If you say something is a "fact", please be prepared to back up your assertions with either sources or personal experience. Best regards, Larry G. LAMPS www.loveandmarriageseminars.com SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! > > (snip) > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > many opportunities to interact with people who are in arranged > marriages. Most (all ?) were from India or nearby. Have you lived in India to observe typical marriages of this sort? If you are only observing peopel from India who have emigrated, then you have an unusal group in many important respects. In either case, I don't think this generalizes to another country and culture where our expectations from marriage (and the penalty for divorce) are quite different. > They have told me that their country (and culture) has a very > low divorce rate, because no emphasis is placed on the romantic [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > thus more deceptive) form of infatuation. But I would not > think them "distinct" by any means. Infatuation is essentially hormones and typically involves idealizing the target of one's infatuation, and is generally short-term. Being in love is the state of simultaneously feeling love and romantic attachment for another person. It doesn't require idealization, and can be sustained over periods of time as long as a lifetime. > > (snip more opinions) > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > please be prepared to back up your assertions with either sources > or personal experience. Why should I be prepared to do that if you aren't? >>> (snip) >>> [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > Why should I be prepared to do that if you aren't? LOL. Nice duckout. What a surprise.... > Have you lived in India to observe typical marriages of this sort? If > you are only observing peopel from India who have emigrated, then you > have an unusal group in many important respects. I hav. Most mariages are as happey or not as Amercan mariges I think but the expectaton of marige is differnt. Its like a job. You expect to do a job and do it well becoz of who you are and if your lucky you enjoy yr job and if yr luckier you love it. When the rate of divoce is lower than you also can expect yr partner will be arnd for a long time. The comitment is taken for granted and the families are ashamed if the marige fails. Some aranged mariges are very happy and some are mizerable. But fromm, what I seen I dont think their less happy than love mariges. And, I think maybe their more satisfide becoz they dont have unreal expectatons. There in to satisficing rather than optimizing. Like with yr kids. You take them for who they are you dont think well I cd do better why dont I hand over this child to somone else and get a smarter cuter kid. n Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:58:48 -0600, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote: >> > (snip) >> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > you are only observing peopel from India who have emigrated, then you > have an unusal group in many important respects. Do you always snip out the important aspects of others' posts? Here is what I wrote, which you omitted: ------------------------------ They have told me that their country (and culture) has a very low divorce rate, because no emphasis is placed on the romantic love-before-marriage notions common in the west. Instead, their expectation is to grow to love their partner over the course of the marriage. Other factors that might work in their favor are that parents consult professional match makers, the prospective couple is introduced to each other when very young, and the kids grow up knowing what life has been planned for them. This may sound confining, but it is also liberating. If the kids don't like each other, the parents find someone else. Liking and respecting each other do seem to be universal elements in all successful and happy marriages. ------------------------------ I never said I had been to India, or that my information was gathered through observation. Rather, it was gained through extended, somewhat detailed discussions about their culture and practices. > In either case, I don't think this generalizes to another country and > culture where our expectations from marriage (and the penalty for > divorce) are quite different. You asked, "Do you have evidence that couples who are not in love before the wedding are just as likely to have satisfactory marriages as those who are?" I supplied the evidence to fit your request - my experience of discussing the matter with the Indians I met at work. Whether or not this generalizes to other countries with different cultures and expectations wasn't an issue. However, since you raise it now, I will assert that it does say something about people being able to grow love *after* marriage, even if they did not have it *before* marriage. >> They have told me that their country (and culture) has a very >> low divorce rate, because no emphasis is placed on the romantic [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > attachment for another person. It doesn't require idealization, and > can be sustained over periods of time as long as a lifetime. Nice definition. I almost bought into it. The problem I have with your definition (and hence your conclusion) is the phrase "feeling love and romantic attachment for another person." In the book "Getting the Love You Want", Dr. Harville Hendrix explains that what most of us take for "love" ("in love" in this discussion) is based on our elation at the fantasy of having found someone who reminds us so strongly of our childhood care-takers (parents, grandparents, nannies, etc.) that we associate all of the protection, comfort and security that we knew as babies, with our new "love". We extend this fantasy-association (transference) to the point that we are absolutely certain that this person will take care of us just like our Imago (composite image of all significant caretakers), and we will be forever happy without any additional effort on our part. That is theoretical reason why I doubt the difference between infatuation and "in love." Both are infantile delusion with the same pattern. Hence, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, . . . >> > (snip more opinions) >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Why should I be prepared to do that if you aren't? What part did you miss? ADHD?! ;-) Cheers, Larry G. LAMPS www.loveandmarriageseminars.com SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! > n Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:58:48 -0600, Doug Anderson > <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Do you always snip out the important aspects of others' posts? Rarely, and never on purpose. In this case, I didn't snip anything important, since what you have below counts as gossip and speculation, not the "fact" that you are trying to palm it off as. > Here is what I wrote, which you omitted: > ------------------------------ [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Whether or not this generalizes to other countries with different > cultures and expectations wasn't an issue. No, but in fact, it doesn't even count as evidence. > However, since you raise > it now, I will assert that it does say something about people being [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > your definition (and hence your conclusion) is the phrase "feeling > love and romantic attachment for another person." You don't have to buy into my definition. You challenged me to describe the difference. I did. > In the book "Getting the Love You Want", Dr. Harville Hendrix > explains that what most of us take for "love" ("in love" in this [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > LAMPS > www.loveandmarriageseminars.com >> n Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:58:48 -0600, Doug Anderson >> <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > > No, but in fact, it doesn't even count as evidence. -snip- Your attempt to discount as "not evidence" anything which does not support your thesis is both immature and intellectually dishonest. This is exacerbated by the fact that you steadfastly refuse to supply any evidence of your own to support your assertions. Best regards, Larry G. LAMPS www.loveandmarriageseminars.com SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! >>> n Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:58:48 -0600, Doug Anderson >>> <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > refuse to supply any evidence of your own to support your > assertions. What "assertions"? I can't find anything that Doug has asserted in this exchange (and I left the post intact). All I see is him asking you to support *your* claims with evidence. Has he claimed something that's not included in this exchange? Maybe I've missed it. >> Your attempt to discount as "not evidence" anything which does >> not support your thesis is both immature and intellectually [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > support *your* claims with evidence. Has he claimed something that's not > included in this exchange? Maybe I've missed it. Well, he has stated that infatuation and "in love" are distinct frames of mind. And he has indicated that what experiences I've related, don't count as evidence for what I've asserted. He seems to do a lot of things by implication, or negation of someone else's statements. cheers, Larry G. LAMPS www.loveandmarriageseminars.com SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! |
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