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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / December 2006Wondering if I should stay in relationship
hey there, so, having serious intimacy problems in marriage. My husband stopped kissing me years ago. Would it be selfish of me to leave with a child in the picture? >hey there, >so, having serious intimacy problems in marriage. My husband stopped >kissing me years ago. > >Would it be selfish of me to leave with a child in the picture? Well, with very little information, it's hard to say, but... I think that it's just as bad and often a lot worse to raise children in a two-parent unhappy household as in a single-parent happy one. So I would think that you either need to do something to address the intimacy issues or seriously consider leaving. Thanks for the advice, working on being strong and leaving, > >hey there, > >so, having serious intimacy problems in marriage. My husband stopped [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > So I would think that you either need to do something to address the > intimacy issues or seriously consider leaving. [Note: By convention, responses to Usenet posts are placed *below* previous (quoted) posts. The previous top post has been repositioned to follow this format.] >> >hey there, >> >so, having serious intimacy problems in marriage. My husband stopped [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> So I would think that you either need to do something to address the >> intimacy issues or seriously consider leaving. > Thanks for the advice, working on being strong and leaving, Wow! That was quick! You would throw away your marriage based on one post and one response in an internet newsgroup. Please solicit and consider other options before doing anything rash. (Unless, of course, you came here for the express purpose of finding someone to validate what you wanted to do in the first place, but didn't want to take responsibility for following your own impulses.) Things to consider, ask yourself, or resolve: 1. WHY hasn't your husband kissed you in years? 2. Are there other problems in your marriage that need to be addressed? 3. Simply running away may not solve the real problems. If you got into another relationship with your current problems unresolved, you would very likely carry these old issues into your future relationship(s). 4. There is no guarantee that single parenthood will be any happier than your current misery. You will simply exchange one set of problems for another - no constant reminder of an unaffectionate spouse, but greater stress from being the head of house with fewer adults, breadwinners and care-takers. You original post was way short on useful information. Are you hiding from yourself as much as from us? I suspect that you are in a state of emotional pain and disappointment which generally leads to denial. Denial allows you to cope with the current situation, but it usually permits it to degenerate into something much worse which will no longer be denied. (Coming here is one sign that is already happening.) So, before things get much worse - get PROFESSIONAL counseling! Get it for yourself, first, in secret if you have to. Do not stop counseling until your counselor(s) tell you that you are OK. Most who start get scared of the changes they want to make, so they come up with self-diagnoses of "I'm all better, now, thanks so much, see ya'!" way before the situation has improved to a sustainable level. Once you and your therapist have establish a healthy rapport, he/she will let you know when and how to get your husband involved, and what you can do to make your life more bearable in the meantime. And if your husband is unwilling to cooperate, your counselor should help you with the transition to single parenthood. Various support groups may be sought in addition to individual counseling. Hope this helps, Larry G. LAMPS www.loveandmarriageseminars.com  SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! Thank-you for the honest and helpful reply. Of course I didn't just make up my mind from a reply on the internet. This has been something we've talked about alot. He doesn't want to be with me either. My therapist says we're in a co-dependant relationship. Alcoholism is also a factor, I know I must leave, just as mentioned, working on it and wanting some crazy sort of support. He doesn't say anything when I have talked about it with him. Just wondering if it's just me, or if others are going through this. > [Note: By convention, responses to Usenet posts are placed *below* > previous (quoted) posts. The previous top post has been repositioned [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- > Thank-you for the honest and helpful reply. Of course I didn't just > make up my mind from a reply on the internet. This has been something [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > He doesn't say anything when I have talked about it with him. Just > wondering if it's just me, or if others are going through this. Thank you for supplying a wealth of additional information. It is much easier to comprehend the situation. If he doesn't want to be with you, why are you bothering to ask if you should leave? What kind of marriages did your parents and his parents have? Did his parents split and yours stick together? The relationships we see as children form our expectations of what and how we should live as adults. If you have differing expectations, or different (incompatible) goals, then you will have problems and probably need to find someone else. Be aware, after you leave, you still need to resolve the issues raised in your previous marriage. Otherwise they carry over into the next, and the next, and . . . ! So, your question wasn't really about being selfish and leaving; is was about finding some excuse to stay, for what ever reason. If you want to use your children as a reason to do anything, consider that you are responsible for setting the tone and nature of their future relationships, through the relationship(s) you show them now. If your is dysfunctional, theirs will likely be as well. Commitment to a miserable, unsatisfying coexistance is hardly something most parents would wish upon their kids. So, the question you should really seek to answer is, "What kind of relationships do you want your children to enjoy/suffer?" Cheers, Larry G. LAMPS www.loveandmarriageseminars.com SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! Hi there, Kate ... I am glad you broadened your explanation, because truthfully and even now, not many of us are qualified to advise you as to how or what your course of action should be. What I would tell you is this ... Love comes around once in a lifetime. True love isn't often found more than once, although it does happen. From the divorced people that I have both counseled and befriended, they have admitted that even though they were remarried, they knew now that they should have stayed and tried to work out the first marriage. Why? Because they divorced their one true love. Here's the thing ... a lifetime is a long time and you will both be challenged by changes and perhaps develop habits that are both destructive to yourselves and your marriage. The habit is the SYMPTOM that overlays the problem. What most of us miss is finding a way to get to the problem and work at resolving it. Sometimes we can do it alone, but more often than not it will require an objective observer who can evaluate you both together, and then apart, to determine what is required to confront and resolve the issue(s). If you think that his not kissing you is at the root of the problem, again, I remind you that the behavior is a SYMPTOM of an underlying problem. I have not met a couple yet that could admit they had a wonderful, intimate and exciting sex life if they couldn't say the same thing about their normal daily lives together. Passion is passion and lust, lust, both fading, physically driven emotions that often put us together with the wrong person. With time, as the lust phase ends something else has to take it's place and that is most often a friendship that is built on love, but mostly TRUST. If a marriage or significant relationship breaks down, it is because the trust has been undercut. You truly need to decide if the relationship is worth fighting for, if you love him enough to try to find your way back to one another and have the life you initially wanted and dreamt of having. Most certainly, if you are estranged, it has something to do with the both of you, so neither of you should ever consider the other 'the problem'. It is my hope you will try to talk over your wants and needs with your spouse and make an appeal to him to seek the help of a caring counselor. If you love each other, fight like hell to save your relationship with one another. You can run away from it if you please, but the problems are packed in your suitcases. The very best of luck and may God watch over the two of you ... Tab > Thank-you for the honest and helpful reply. Of course I didn't just > make up my mind from a reply on the internet. This has been something [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- tabaround said > Hi there, Kate ... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > tried to work out the first marriage. Why? Because they divorced > their one true love. You need to befriend some more divorced people to get a better sampling before you start generalizing. Many divorced people realize they should NOT have stayed in a bad marriage and some (myself included) feel like they tried too long before admitting the inevitable. True love sometimes strikes after divorce. Casey Thanks for the feedback, Casey. It was not my intent to generalize, however, most people do enter into marriage under the guise that they are in love with the person they plan to marry. If we are talking about a "bad marriage", again, it never starts out that way and usually has roots in deeper issues involving one or both of the partners. I am happy you have no regrets. As it should be. Tab > tabaround said > > Hi there, Kate ... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Casey tabaround said > > tabaround said > > > Hi there, Kate ... [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > about a "bad marriage", again, it never starts out that way and usually > has roots in deeper issues involving one or both of the partners. Again, you are generalizing. Many marriages start with people being (or believing they are) in love with each other ... and yet the marriage eventually disintegrates. My marriage didn't start out as a bad one - and I truly felt I was in love with her when we married. > I am happy you have no regrets. As it should be. Yes. Casey > Hi there, Kate ... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Love comes around once in a lifetime. I don't think so. For some it doesn't ever come around. For others it comes around more than once. > True love isn't often found more > than once, although it does happen. From the divorced people that I > have both counseled and befriended, they have admitted that even though > they were remarried, they knew now that they should have stayed and > tried to work out the first marriage. Why? Because they divorced > their one true love. You would find that most of the divorced and remarried people who are regulars here would disagree about that. > You would find that most of the divorced and remarried people who are > regulars here would disagree about that. Completely. Cal~ > Hi there, Kate ... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Love comes around once in a lifetime. True love isn't often found more > than once, although it does happen. "True Love" is a fairy tale. Either a relationship "works" or it doesn't. > hey there, > so, having serious intimacy problems in marriage. My husband stopped > kissing me years ago. > > Would it be selfish of me to leave with a child in the picture? Is anyone else in relatively new marriage - 6 years, without kissing even during sex? > > hey there, > > so, having serious intimacy problems in marriage. My husband stopped [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Is anyone else in relatively new marriage - 6 years, without kissing > even during sex? What does you husband say when you talk about this with him? Why has he stopped kissing you? Do you still want him to? Do you want to kiss him? If not, why not? If so, why don't you do it? Have the two of you been to a couples therapist? If not, why not? You give very little information, but the kind of problem you are describing sometimes can be solved. And no, I actually don't want him to anymore, it's been too long, and he's pushed away too many times. > > > hey there, > > > so, having serious intimacy problems in marriage. My husband stopped [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > You give very little information, but the kind of problem you are > describing sometimes can be solved. > And no, I actually don't want him to anymore, it's been too long, and > he's pushed away too many times. OK, well now I can answer your original question. Yes, it would be selfish of you to leave with a child in the picture. But it sounds like your mind is made up that you aren't interested in working on the relationship. And in that case, the best thing is to do the selfish thing, and leave, IMO. > And no, I actually don't want him to anymore, it's been too long, and > he's pushed away too many times. Based on a smattering of posts with little substance, sounds as though you're looking for folks to say you've been wronged by that ugly galoot; it's ok, do as you please and without guilt. If that's true, fear not; some will come to your rescue. FYI... Culturally, to many, kissing isn't required for love or sex; and for some, sex has "no" purpose other then creating babies. You might be saying, I don't accept that. Well, for those folks and many like me, what's actually respected and or cherished in a marriage to the point of feeling astounding affection and love for another is the substance motivating the daily actions of their SO. I, for one, feel in love with my wife's substance, not the sex or kissing; those are just benefits that could leave us any day (God forbid) due to resulting physical limits. Then, how does one find the physical if that's what they base affection and love on. After reading your posts further, I have to wonder how well the two of you know each other; and how you related to him during pregnancy and the roll you've taken on since. SignatureSD:) > > And no, I actually don't want him to anymore, it's been too long, and > > he's pushed away too many times. > > Based on a smattering of posts with little substance, sounds as though > you're looking for folks to say you've been wronged by that ugly > galoot; Yes, she may be looking for that. > it's ok, do as you please and without guilt. If that's true, fear not; > some will come to your rescue. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > forbid) due to resulting physical limits. Then, how does one find the > physical if that's what they base affection and love on. But unless you are reading different posts from the ones I'm reading, neither of them are demonstrating love for each other's "substance." Right? The kissing is merely a symptom of that. So the question she should be asking is "since I don't feel like I love my husband, and he doesn't act like he loves me, what should I do?" > After reading your posts further, I have to wonder how well the two of > you know each other; and how you related to him during pregnancy and the > roll you've taken on since. I think she said she isn't taking any rolls from him at this point! okay....scenario of my relationship...... I am or should I say was the very affectionate, admiring loyal loving wife who was blinded by love. Trust me, one can be too nice and that was me. Was I a B....during pregnancy, not at all, I only really wished he would have shown some intereste and felt the baby kick from time to time without my almost forcing him. And Doug is right!!! No more rolls here!!!! And sorry, I haven't quite figured out how to quote, but I am looking for someone to say yes, I've been wronged! Without having to aire my dirty laundry to people we both know. I'm as you've probably noticed, a very private person, and I must always carry a front so people think I have the perfect life, perfect marriage. And, for the record, my smattering of little posts is because I am running around doing other things at the same time and have little time to convey much more than brief comments. And I do appreciate your comments and very helpful insight that some of given, and you know who you are! And yes, 'kissing' is only a symbol of affection not shown to me. It's almost like we are just business partners, or should I say boss/employee!! Or, like Tai mentioned.... roomates with benefits! But the benefits are gone so that leaves us as.... Roomates. > > > And no, I actually don't want him to anymore, it's been too long, and > > > he's pushed away too many times. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > I think she said she isn't taking any rolls from him at this point! > okay....scenario of my relationship...... I am or should I say was the > very affectionate, admiring loyal loving wife who was blinded by love. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > boss/employee!! Or, like Tai mentioned.... roomates with benefits! > But the benefits are gone so that leaves us as.... Roomates. Here is the rub: I'm not trying to excuse your husband if he has behaved badly, but I think responsibility usually lies on both sides. _If_ your husband has been behaving for years in a way that you don't like, it was up to you to tell him what you wanted, and to make clear that by not treating you in a loving way, he risked destroying your relationship. It is unfortunate that this didn't happen years ago in your marriage. But without trying it now, probably with the help of a therapist, I don't know how you can know it is too late. Unfortunately, being blinded by love may interfere with having a good relationship. If one idealizes one's spouse, then maybe ceasing that idealization goes hand in hand with not feeling love any longer. Which is a good reason not to idealize people. If one wants a good honest relationship, it is necessary not to idealize one's spouse but to love one's spouse while really understanding who he or she is. This is the greatest gift you can have from someone - their love not because you are perfect, but because you are who you are, with your imperfections. kate said > And, for the record, my smattering of little posts is because I am > running around doing other things at the same time and have little time > to convey much more than brief comments. If you don't spend the time and effort to describe your situation, don't expect more than just brief comments in return. You have just as much time as most of us have. Casey > But unless you are reading different posts from the ones I'm reading, > neither of them are demonstrating love for each other's "substance." > Right? The kissing is merely a symptom of that. We're not getting anything more then what suits her needs. And, yes, lack of kissing is symptom of something greater. That said, I don't know how she's contributed to that result. SignatureSD:) >>And no, I actually don't want him to anymore, it's been too long, and >>he's pushed away too many times. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > SO. I, for one, feel in love with my wife's substance, not the sex or > kissing; Fascinating. Sorry for being intrusive, but does the "substance" of your wife include masturbating in front of you? I am only asking because in the neighboring thread you are arguing that a wife who refuses to masturbate in front of her husband is "controlling the level of their intimacy", "abandoned the possibilities of expanding their intimacy in favor of her personal issues", "he's meeting her needs, she's not meeting his", and her contribution to the marriage should be questioned. Now we're learning that kissing isn't required for love, and wanting to be kissed by one's husband means the woman isn't in love with the "substance" of her husband but sex or kissing. I can't help but conclude that kissing is not included in the "substance" but masturbating in front of spouse is. You say these rules are "culturally" based. Is that the same culture (and religion) that you said some of us were "uninformed" about? How come you didn't want to enlighten us uninformed bunch and tell us what culture and religion is it that considers refusal to masturbate in front of husband a breach of marital duty and justification for looking elsewhere, but doesn't consider refusal to kiss one's wife a big deal? >> [20 quoted lines suppressed] > > Fascinating. Sorry for being intrusive, No your not... >but does the "substance" of your > wife include masturbating in front of you? I am only asking because in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > favor of her personal issues", "he's meeting her needs, she's not > meeting his", and her contribution to the marriage should be questioned. Answer in a word - yes... > Now we're learning that kissing isn't required for love, and wanting to > be kissed by one's husband means the woman isn't in love with the > "substance" of her husband but sex or kissing. I can't help but conclude > that kissing is not included in the "substance" but masturbating in > front of spouse is. You extract words, ignore intent, recreat new intent and then twist so it appears as you wish... SignatureSD:) >>>[20 quoted lines suppressed] >> >>Fascinating. Sorry for being intrusive, > > No your not... I was quite sincere. I don't like prying into people's personal lives, and would've preferred that your example was not about your wife so my question didn't have to be personal either. But you gave a personal example and it directed my question. >>but does the "substance" of your >>wife include masturbating in front of you? I am only asking because in [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > You extract words, ignore intent, recreat new intent and then twist so > it appears as you wish... What intent? I haven't read all the posts in this thread, and when I saw an entry from you I expected a VERY different post. I opened your post thinking that you are going to pass a very harsh judgment on the husband who refuses to kiss his wife, having seen how you had judged a woman who didn't want to masturbate in front of her husband. I was quite surprised to see that at best, you seem to dismiss his action as insignificant, and at worst justify his lack of affection by appealing to a minimalist purpose for sex -- and in the process found a way to blame the wife too! I haven't read enough of your posts to know your overall views, so my confusion might be the result of lack of familiarity. I couldn't help thinking if you would have responded the same as the other thread if she had said that her husband refuses to masturbate in front of her (instead of refusing to kiss her). And my very trusted gut-feeling said NO, you wouldn't! From what I've read so far it seems to me that you subscribe to a very one sided view of sexual relationship between a man and a woman. One in which the woman is subservient and primarily in service of the man. This provides a context for your posts and I understand them better. >I don't like prying into people's personal lives, >and would've preferred that your example was not about your wife so my >question didn't have to be personal either. But you gave a personal >example and it directed my question. IMO - support isn't about theory or idealism; it's about seeing without rosy colored glasses and hearing truth all of which comes from from real life education and experiences pertaining to the subject matter. I used the real thing so you knew, in no uncertain terms, the truth, there by eliminating assumption. >What intent? Pre-disposition + assumptions, whether admitted or not. >I haven't read all the posts in this thread, and when I saw >an entry from you I expected a VERY different post. I opened your post [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >and at worst justify his lack of affection by appealing to a minimalist >purpose for sex -- and in the process found a way to blame the wife too! Above, you demonstrate an uneducated assumption about me, combined with your predisposition regarding his guilt, based on her perception. I didn't dismiss his actions, or lack there of. All I am aware of is he quit kissing her, so my judgment regarding him is reserved until I know what caused such an extreme reaction. You're mixing different subjects also; the OT from "getting your wife to masturbate... wanted her to masturbate - motive = more spice in their already established sex life; and she didn't, due to comfort zone limits. I spoke to sexual intimacy aspects of the couple and their responsibilities towards one another's sexual gratification relating to marriage over the long term. Whether you know it or not, there are many sources for understanding about healthy sexual intimacy. What we don't know is, if any, what her deeper issues regarding the subject might be. I am not associating "rape" or "abuse" or other deeper illnesses because they already have a basic meat and potatoes sex life. She's withholding the gravy, which is cause for question. In this thread "wondering if I should stay in relationship", I question the actions of the OP; not her husband, because I am not privy to his motives. What first stood out was, not so much the kissing, but, she was looking for further justification to leave him due to the lack of kissing and supposed intimacy. Second was, his drastic withholding of kissing is very uncommon for a man, yet common for a woman. So, I am lead to believe deeper "unknown" issues caused him to withhold, as he has. Based on what I read, either she's hasn't clue or she hasn't told all, the later is more likely. That's where I extrapolated regarding "possible" cultural or religious motives on his part - example: some African and Muslim sects are very conservative regarding physical attention. Who knows... >From what I've read so far it seems to me that you subscribe to a very >one sided view of sexual relationship between a man and a woman. One in >which the woman is subservient and primarily in service of the man. This >provides a context for your posts and I understand them better. This is a brazen example of pre-disposition affecting comprehension, what you think you know vs fact. You focus "in" on specific words, extracting others, then apply pre-disposition to come up with woman are subservient in MY world... You shouldn't be so quick to assume your in the know... by doing so, you appear quite the opposite. LOL - SignatureSD:) >>I don't like prying into people's personal lives, >>and would've preferred that your example was not about your wife so my [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the real thing so you knew, in no uncertain terms, the truth, there by > eliminating assumption. That's fine. I just explained because you questioned my sincerity. > I didn't dismiss his actions, or lack there of. All I am aware of is he > quit kissing her, so my judgment regarding him is reserved until I know > what caused such an extreme reaction. Do you know *why* the wife in the other thread isn't comfortable masturbating for her husband? > You're mixing different subjects also; the OT from "getting your wife to > masturbate... wanted her to masturbate - motive = more spice in their [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > they already have a basic meat and potatoes sex life. She's withholding > the gravy, which is cause for question. You have said more than that. You have implied that if her husband goes elsewhere because she is depriving him, the responsibility is on her shoulders. > In this thread "wondering if I should stay in relationship", I question > the actions of the OP; not her husband, because I am not privy to his > motives. But you are privy to the motives of the other woman who refuses to masturbate, right? > What first stood out was, not so much the kissing, but, she > was looking for further justification to leave him due to the lack of > kissing and supposed intimacy. But you almost gave justification to the action of the other husband to look elsewhere, didn't you? > Second was, his drastic withholding of kissing is very uncommon for a > man, yet common for a woman. So, I am lead to believe deeper "unknown" > issues caused him to withhold, as he has. To quote yourself: Pre-disposition + assumptions, whether admitted or not. You make your judgments based on the gender of the people involved in each of these cases, and accuse me of predisposition! > Based on what I read, either > she's hasn't clue or she hasn't told all, the later is more likely. > That's where I extrapolated regarding "possible" cultural or religious > motives on his part - example: some African and Muslim sects are very > conservative regarding physical attention. Who knows... Has it even occurred to you that the other wife in question may belong to some culture or religion that frowns upon open masturbation? >>From what I've read so far it seems to me that you subscribe to a very > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > This is a brazen example of pre-disposition affecting comprehension, > what you think you know vs fact. LOL... At least I am aware of my pre-disposition and made sure to clarify that my judgment may be incomplete or incorrect because I haven't read enough of your posts to know anything for a fact. That's why I said "so far it seems to me..." Your pre-dispositions and prejudices SEEM TO BE totally transparent to you! > You focus "in" on specific words, > extracting others, then apply pre-disposition to come up with woman are > subservient in MY world... You shouldn't be so quick to assume your in > the know... by doing so, you appear quite the opposite. Yes, I notice that about you very clearly! I am not here to play games with you or anyone else. If you don't like what I say "killfile" or ignore me.... I am not going to argue with you. I am done! > I am not here to play games with you or anyone else. If you don't like > what I say "killfile" or ignore me.... I am not going to argue with you. > I am done! I understand. I've been a bit too challenging, and you can't respond to my points (so you call them playing games!). No problem. As for killfiling you, why in the world would I want to do that? I like to read views like yours and respond to them. Newsgroup postings are not personal communications, they are meant for public viewing. So by all means, ignore my posts if you wish. Those who are interested can read them. > >>I don't like prying into people's personal lives, > >>and would've preferred that your example was not about your wife so my [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > > Yes, I notice that about you very clearly! Nothing specific happened to provoke his 'drastic withholding of kissing'. It happend slowly, he would tighten his lips if I tried to kiss him, or roll his eyes, or actually push me away, on a regular basis. I just stopped trying to kiss him. The rolling of the eyes started even before I married him, if you can believe that! What a fool I am hey?!! Therefore, within the first year or 2 of marriage it just stopped. I have not provoked that in any way, have been loyal, haven't changed in any way. When we talk about it, he admits it's him, not me. He has intimacy issues, that yes... he needs to work out. And yes, I am not sure I want to stick it out anylonger for many other reasons as well. He is nasty and mean sometimes, and then other times he can be nice, which makes it feel like he's really nice. But that's not what I was wanting feedback.... simply just the intimacy issue. And simply wondering if I am the only one who is going through this. ** I really wish I knew how to actually quote specific sentances, sorry..... it would probably be easier for all to view. And no, I AM NOT SAYING THESE THINGS TO SUIT ME....nor am I trying to manipulate your posts - or replies - I am simply writing exactly what I am thinking. For example, and not looking for pity, as I mentioned I wasn't going into this but I will give more detail as to why I don't want to stay and help him through his intimacy issues....... Christmas evening I start getting a knot in my stomach waiting for him to lecture me, etc; I have anxiety issues b/c of his constant nagging, lecturing, putting me down while praising etc;. And the best one...... understanding that (my negligence) isn't my fault.... And again, I am aware that this is wrong behaviour, and not looking for sympathy just explaining why I am so easily able to leave at this point. Obviously! No kissing, no touching, and constant put downs, control......... What I write in these posts are things I cannot tell others. I cannot tell friends because I don't want them to judge him. I cannot tell my family b/c they have their own problems and it will only upset them. Not to mention that it's embarrassing. Yes I do have a therapist. I am a smart person, perhaps not as intellectual as some of you, and I can see that you are by your posts : ) But I am really intune to others, there emotions, etc; I think what I really wanted was to unload some frustrations, and to get a little feedback, to feel a little better about things. And I do, (I have read everyones feedback) and it's been really helpful, and who knows, maybe one day someone will look at this post and say... hey, I'm going through the same thing! And again... please do not say that I am looking for sympathy, or looking for certain feedback, b/c I don't like to be patrinized, and that's not the case. (sorry for mis-spelling!) On a lighter note...... I always wanted to be a therapist!!!!! I could have been my best client :) Okay............ was that a long enough post??? LOL. > ** I really wish I knew how to actually quote specific sentances, > sorry..... it would probably be easier for all to view. Are you posting through google groups? If so, at the top of the post you are replying to you should see something that says "show options". Click that, and use the "reply" there at the top, instead of the one at the bottom of the post. The one at the top will leave the quotes - just delete the parts that you don't want, and keep the parts that you want to have in your reply. > > ** I really wish I knew how to actually quote specific sentances, > > sorry..... it would probably be easier for all to view. - just delete the > parts that you don't want, and keep the parts that you want to have in your > reply. Okay.... I think I've got it now! Thanks Joy : ) >> > ** I really wish I knew how to actually quote specific sentances, >> > sorry..... it would probably be easier for all to view. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Okay.... I think I've got it now! Thanks Joy : ) You're welcome! > Nothing specific happened to provoke his 'drastic withholding of > kissing'. It happend slowly, he would tighten his lips if I tried to > kiss him, or roll his eyes, or actually push me away, on a regular > basis. I just stopped trying to kiss him. The rolling of the eyes > started even before I married him, if you can believe that! What a > fool I am hey?!! Hi, Kate. If you're looking for encouragement to get out of this relationship, you'll find my experiences more up your alley. I actually think you're quite perceptive - you can actually remember that he rolled his eyes. I did the same foolish thing - married someone who thought affection and so forth was pretty silly. Frankly, I don't recall kissing him - although we must have, at some point! I do recall eye-rolling (at pet names, affectionate talk, holding hands, etc.) Sometimes he'd be very affectionate though - other times, he'd be disdainful. Therefore, within the first year or 2 of marriage it > just stopped. I have not provoked that in any way, have been loyal, > haven't changed in any way. When we talk about it, he admits it's him, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > not what I was wanting feedback.... simply just the intimacy issue. > And simply wondering if I am the only one who is going through this. Not any more On another thread, someone (Sheila I think) about how people in unhappy marriages develop infatuations with people who represent or provide what they don't have - and I'd have to include infatuations with non-people (ideas, cultures, places, etc.) as all the ways I kept myself going without affection (much less love) in my marriage. I'd like to ask you - do you think your husband would say he loves you? My X eventually stopped saying he loved me (I can't remember how that happened either), but when pressured, he'd say, "I'm grateful to you..." Or his therapist would say, "He DOES love you but..." Of course - love must be expressed in a way that the person to whom it's directed senses it as love, doesn't it? So - even if your husband would not say to you, "I love you," I'm asking - would he tell a third party, perhaps, that he loves you? That he ever did? What do you think he'd say? Oh, and eventually, of course, I developed infatuations for specific people (not necessarily sexual infatuations) - and combined all of that feeling together to gain what I lacked in my marriage. My X was busy doing the same thing, I think. > ** I really wish I knew how to actually quote specific sentances, > sorry..... it would probably be easier for all to view. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > so easily able to leave at this point. Obviously! No kissing, no > touching, and constant put downs, control......... Wow, this is tough. Part of me wants to urge you to seek counseling and/or get help with the anxiety, the other part of me wants you to continue feeling the anxiety so you'll act. If it's so easy for you to leave at this point - why not leave? What's your thinking on why you stay? > What I write in these posts are things I cannot tell others. I cannot > tell friends because I don't want them to judge him. I cannot tell my > family b/c they have their own problems and it will only upset them. > Not to mention that it's embarrassing. Yes I do have a therapist. Okay. That's good you have a therapist - and I totally understand why you need to post about this anonymously. I do have to say that when you finally decide to tell your family (even though it will upset them), then you are truly ready to leave. That was the single thing that kept me in my first marriage the longest (well, that and not being willing to admit failure in front of my family - but ultimately, that grew to be an irresistible attraction - it was very liberating to "fail" at something that everyone else in my family *seems* to be able to do - and then go on with my life without regard to *their* notions of success and failure. Upsetting them was hard - but I realized just recently that many things I do, if I'm honest, upset some parts of my family in some way - whereas other parts of my family are entirely supportive and helpful, rather than focusing on their own "upset." Anyway, it was this embarrassment/don't upset the elders thing that kept me in the relationship the last few years. That's *my* issue - and looking back, I inflicted a few more years of hell on both of us (my X and I) due to my unwillingness to be embarrassed or upset people. He wasn't going to leave - because the services I provided were inestimably valuable to him. There's no way he could have gotten from any series of people, at such low cost, what he got from me - and that was his bottom line. > I am a smart person, perhaps not as intellectual as some of you, and I > can see that you are by your posts : ) But I am really intune to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and it's been really helpful, and who knows, maybe one day someone will > look at this post and say... hey, I'm going through the same thing! Well - I did go through the same thing. I need to feel that I am not only loved by my partner, but that I am central to his life - and he, to mine. I don't know what kind of "infatuation" that is - but, I need to be in relationships where I admire the other person (I mean truly admire them), sense that they are happy and fulfilled, know that I only add to their fulfillment (and not be the only source of it), and of course, it's nice to be compatible and have a great sex life too. In general, I seek relationships where I admire and enjoy another person, but I usually can't spend a lot of time with people (I'm a very intense, serious person - and the only relationships I've ever had longterm are with other intense, serious people). So - I've learned my own failings and flaws and needs, through all this - and the cost of all this has been considerable, emotionally - as you're finding. You can buckle under and do what is expected, I guess, for the rest of your life. Or not. I'm finding that, in some ways, living without the constraints of "what will people think" isn't as easy as the other way. But, instead of wandering around in a fog, pretending things were one way when they weren't, I think I see things much more clearly (and avoid certain kinds of relationships altogether - which is *not* necessarily a good trait - but it's a kind of caution to myself not to let the same thing happen to me again). I'm guessing your parents and family of origin very much set you up for this type of relationship, one in which fear of embarassment and of hurting someone's feelings - in this case, your husband's are very strong parameters. Not that the insight helps fix things - you'll always feel the consequences of your decision (whatever it is) and NEITHER decision (staying or going) will be perfect. For me, though, leaving led to happiness - I can actually utter the words, "I'm pretty happy!" and not feel the least bit insane. Lately, there have been some bumpy things (very bumpy) but I know now that no matter how bad life gets, I've had some real happiness - and some real understanding of what life is about. I'm not sitting around waiting to die, or depressed, or wondering what people think of me. I do worry about other people's feelings, as much as I ever did - I still worry about my X, but I can see that just like other people, I have my limits. Your question is: how much can you take of this? It won't get better - you know that. So, there you have it. Would it be better to be alone or to stay? My mom ended up deciding on the "alone" gig about 15 years ago, and it takes its toll - yet, she's had amazing experiences and says she doesn't regret it. People certainly don't see her the same way as before the divorce, and that stings still, a little. She isn't a better person, necessarily, than when she was married - but she has experienced happiness. Oh - and if this is confusing, I should mention I have TWO mothers (a bio-mom and an adopted mom). > And again... please do not say that I am looking for sympathy, or > looking for certain feedback, b/c I don't like to be patrinized, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Okay............ was that a long enough post??? LOL. Well, it's obviously my opinion that you need to leave. Even if you decide to come back - leaving would be good for you. I don't believe there's etiquette to cover divorcing properly, btw. But, once I realized that I was substituting a set of friendships and work projects for my marriage - and that I really had *no family* except my two children (and the danger of making those two kids into substitute adult partners always looms in that situation, indeed kids perceive the gap pretty readily). You don't seem to have kids - which is really cool, in terms of leaving. But, when you really stop and think about it, "leaving him" means uprooting yourself, establishing entirely new and more honest relationships with the rest of your family, enduring embarrassment (and other unpleasant feelings) - and although you'd clearly like to leave this guy, you need to somehow get yourself ready for the onslaught of real world consequences (just like on this board, people are going to react in all manner of ways, not necessarily always helpful). Oh - and if you come here enough, you'll get toughened up about embarrassment! A. >> And no, I actually don't want him to anymore, it's been too long, and >> he's pushed away too many times. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it's ok, do as you please and without guilt. If that's true, fear not; > some will come to your rescue. Please! Allow me to take this opportunity . . . ;-) Indeed I think it is fair to say that Kate is extremely hurt by the repeated rejections, and very disappointed that what should be a lifelong source of love and happiness should have degenerated into a virtual prison of emotional abandonment and discouragement. She has every right to be confused, angry, and to seek divorce. > FYI... Culturally, to many, kissing isn't required for love or sex; and > for some, sex has "no" purpose other then creating babies. You might be > saying, I don't accept that. What people do next door, or on the other side of the world, does not have anything to do with the satisfaction that is missing from her life. This little foray into cultural anthropology (as interesting as it may be), is entirely academic and totally beside the point. > Well, for those folks and many like me, what's actually respected and or > cherished in a marriage to the point of feeling astounding affection and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > forbid) due to resulting physical limits. Then, how does one find the > physical if that's what they base affection and love on. Good! Now you share your own experiences and feelings. Still, what works for you, may be of little consequence or value to Kate. Best regards, Larry G. LAMPS www.loveandmarriageseminars.com SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! > Please! Allow me to take this opportunity . . . ;-) > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Hi Larry, That is the most perfect way of summing up my entire marriage. Thank-you! Best of luck to you as well! Kate, >> Please! Allow me to take this opportunity . . . ;-) >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Best of luck to you as well! > Kate, Kate, Thank you for the kind comments. I needed them after running into some "contentious" discussions elsewhere in this group. May your coming years be vastly more satisfying than your most recent few. Best regards, Larry G. LAMPS www.loveandmarriageseminars.com SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! >>> Please! Allow me to take this opportunity . . . ;-) >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > running into some "contentious" discussions elsewhere in > this group. Contentious discussions???? In here????? No, say it isn't so! kate said > > hey there, > > so, having serious intimacy problems in marriage. My husband stopped [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Is anyone else in relatively new marriage - 6 years, without kissing > even during sex? Are you saying he hasn't kissed you since you were married?? Is this a case of he suddenly stopped kissing you one day, or has this been the general status of your whole relationship? Casey > kate said > > > hey there, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Casey stopped for the past 5 years, it was a gradual stop and is the general status of our whole relationship. Is this crazy? > Is anyone else in relatively new marriage - 6 years, without kissing > even during sex? Do either of you smoke, have gum disease or otherwise poor oral hygiene? Neither of us smoke, have gum disease, or poor oral hygiene, we floss twice a day and use Listerine : ) but thanks for the insight. > > Is anyone else in relatively new marriage - 6 years, without kissing > > even during sex? > > Do either of you smoke, have gum disease or otherwise poor oral hygiene? > so, having serious intimacy problems in marriage. > My husband stopped kissing me years ago. > Would it be selfish of me to leave with a child in the picture? Why? Do you have bad breath? Have you tried marriage counselling. If not, why not? Have you talked to your DH about this? If not, why is it that can you put this out on the internet, but not let him in on the "secret?" I have no problem with folks leaving, where there's one or more of the 4-A's (abandoment, abuse, addiction, adultery) -- and it may be that he's abandoned you both emotionally and physically -- but IMHO, beofre you do you anything that sets you on the road to divorce, unless it presents some personal danger, you have an obligation to discuss this with him. If you've done this, and its still hopeless, then proceed. =R= wow.. I appreciate your being so candid! I do not have bad breath, I visit my DH on a regular basis, that is every six months : ) I am also attractive, even more so than we were married.... not bragging, just being honest. I have mentioned it to him of course, for that past few years, I have also spoken to a therapist, just wanted some candid advice from anonymous listeners. K. > > so, having serious intimacy problems in marriage. > > My husband stopped kissing me years ago. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > him. If you've done this, and its still hopeless, then proceed. > =R= > wow.. I appreciate your being so candid! I do not have bad breath, > I visit my DH on a regular basis, that is every six months : ) We use DH as short-hand for "dear husband," and also DS for dear son, DSS = dear step-son... etc. > I am also attractive, even more so than we were married.... not > bragging, just being honest. I have mentioned it to him of course, > for the past few years, I have also spoken to a therapist, just > wanted some candid advice from anonymous listeners. > K. I still say that he is entitled to know what your thinking is and just how bad the situation is. It may be that he's the one who needs the therapy, not you, or that you both should give it a try. I did marriage counselling 2x in my 1st marriage -- at year 7, it worked wonders; but at yeat 17, it did not. Even so, IMHO, it was worth the effort. =R= kate said > wow.. I appreciate your being so candid! I do not have bad breath, I > visit my DH on a regular basis, that is every six months : ) I am > also attractive, even more so than we were married.... not bragging, > just being honest. I have mentioned it to him of course, for that past > few years, I have also spoken to a therapist, just wanted some candid > advice from anonymous listeners. At first glance, I thought you meant you visited your Dear Husband (DH) every six months ... that is a lot different from visiting your dental hygienist. The big question is, what does your husband say when you mention it to him? In my opinion, you should be having some very serious discussions with him ... and joint counseling as well. Casey > wow.. I appreciate your being so candid! I do not have > bad breath. I visit my DH on a regular basis, that is every > six months... I have mentioned it to him of course... <creative editing> I agree that you'll find the folk at alt.support.divorce (ASD) both entertaining /and/ educational. Frankly, I don't think that you'd be quite so eager to fly the coop if you were not already convinced that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. Whoever told you that has commited a fraud. Unless you already have a guy on the hook, you'll likely find that, as a divorced mother of young children, many guys will "kiss" you plenty, but will not commit to anything permanent as long as your kids need your attention. How do I know: I dated a few of such ladies myself, but did not commit to one, until her kids had left home (at the behest of their father who wanted to stop paying CS). =R= > hey there, > so, having serious intimacy problems in marriage. My husband stopped > kissing me years ago. > > Would it be selfish of me to leave with a child in the picture? "selfish"? Well, by definition, yes. > hey there, > so, having serious intimacy problems in marriage. My husband stopped > kissing me years ago. > > Would it be selfish of me to leave with a child in the picture? Yes, it would. But leaving a marriage will be a selfish act whatever the reasons for going are. A better question is will it be a mistake for you to leave now? Further on you say you don't actually want your husband to kiss you anymore so maybe there is nothing left for you in your marriage. For the sake of any future relationship you might enter in to perhaps you could do some self-examination on why you let your situation get to the point of no longer caring for your husband without trying to do something effective to improve matters between you two. If you did want more from this bunch of strangers than just to rubber stamp your decision, perhaps you could consider going to your husband and telling him you *will* be leaving unless he is willing to work on your relationship with you - in marriage counselling if that's what it takes. Tai well, one can only tolerate so much rejection. I have mentioned many many times over the years. my original question was if anyone else has experienced this? Now my question is would any of my new friends stay with someone who only kissed you in the first year of marriage? Has anyone experienced sex with their life partner without kissing for several years as well? by the way, I do appreciate your replys : ) > > hey there, > > so, having serious intimacy problems in marriage. My husband stopped [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Tai > well, one can only tolerate so much rejection. I have mentioned many > many times over the years. my original question was if anyone else has [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > several years as well? > by the way, I do appreciate your replys : ) Kate, I can't help feeling your story is allegorical in nature so I'm going to step out of the discussion and restrict myself to reading the comments instead! Tai Not sure what allegorical means, if it means untruthful, or just for sake of conversation.... trust me, I am speaking the truth. May seem difficult to believe. If you were to meet myself and my husband you would be even more surprised. > > well, one can only tolerate so much rejection. I have mentioned many > > many times over the years. my original question was if anyone else has [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Tai > Not sure what allegorical means, if it means untruthful, or just for > sake of conversation.... trust me, I am speaking the truth. May seem > difficult to believe. If you were to meet myself and my husband you > would be even more surprised. Why would we be more surprised? >> > well, one can only tolerate so much rejection. I have mentioned many >> > many times over the years. my original question was if anyone else has [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >> Tai > Not sure what allegorical means, if it means untruthful, or just for > sake of conversation.... trust me, I am speaking the truth. May seem > difficult to believe. If you were to meet myself and my husband you > would be even more surprised. I meant that your stated reason for wanting to end your marriage was like someone saying she needed to amputate her leg because she has a sore toe, rather than because her whole lower leg was rotting from a couple of untreated diseases. (Alcoholism and neglect, in your case.) I don't have anything to add to what others have said. It doesn't sound like either of you are interested in repairing your marriage and you do seem to be here looking for permission to be the one who makes it official. Mind you, it's hard to tell if you have much choice about that unless you are prepared to continue being "roommates with benefits". There is something you might like to think about: When you start off as a married couple isn't part of being a good parent doing one's best to be a good spouse to your child's other parent? Tai > Not sure what allegorical means, if it means untruthful, or just for > sake of conversation.... trust me, I am speaking the truth. May seem [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> Tai "Unselfish" doesn't mean the same thing as "a doormat." You are entitled to say "This isn't the kind of marriage I want. I feel starved with no kissing. I need kissing." If that is you, then you are entitled to say that your present marriage doesn't meet your needs. That is simply looking after yourself, not being selfish. I think that Tai meant it that way. In an English case, in the Court of Appeal, one Judge (obviously a Catholic) said that a partner who refused sex was refusing to have children, and that was a ground for divorce. The other two Judges and 5 members of the House of Lords were against him - refusal of sex wasn't a ground for divorce. Our youngest daughter said quite openly that she wanted a lot more affection in her marriage than we have. What others would do in your position is irrelevant. What works for the two of you? I am partly in your position (my wife has allowed me a kiss on the cheek only, and we have been married 35 years,) but being on the other side of the gender fence, what is right for me won't be right for you. Even what is right for another woman won't be right for you. You are not only a woman, you are an individual. I am not sure quite what Tai means by allegorical. Maybe she means "hypothetical." Is this thread simply an exercise? Would you really leave? Where (emotionally) would you go? If you had a boyfriend in the wings who satisfies you more, it might be a different scenario. Then it becomes real. But you haven't mentioned one. Would you leave your husband and set up on your own? That might be worse than what you have now. Doug L. SignatureScience is organized knowledge. Wisdom is organized life. - Immanuel Kant > can't help feeling your story is allegorical in nature so I'm going > to step out of the discussion and restrict myself to reading the comments > instead! Insightful:) SignatureSD:) >well, one can only tolerate so much rejection. I have mentioned many >many times over the years. my original question was if anyone else has >experienced this? Now my question is would any of my new friends stay >with someone who only kissed you in the first year of marriage? Has >anyone experienced sex with their life partner without kissing for >several years as well? Kate, it seems like you're focusing on this one particular thing, the kissing part, but that there are a whole lot more issues. So... if you're looking for someone to say, yes, I've been married for years and we never kiss but we do have sex... well, there's very likely someone out there like that, but probably not a lot. If you ignore the specific thing that bugs you, the kissing, and ask... have you been in a marriage where there is no emotional intimacy but there is still sex (which is kind of what this sounds like to me), then I bet that you'd get a lot of "me too" replies. I'm curious... what I kind of get from your posts, which aren't exactly a fountain of information, is that your husband just pushes you away or something, but that you still have sex... and that prior to the last 5 years, like when you were dating, during the first year of marriage, he DID kiss you. So, did something else happen? Was this around the time of the birth of your child? Is this related to other loss of emotional intimacy? And where does the alcohol come into this? You're right, I am not a fountain of information here!! I am keeping it as short as possible.. Okay, so my relationship: No emotional contact at all, eg; touching of the shoulder or hand, kissing, hugging, He is the alcoholic and has intimacy problems, he's admitted it. He agreed to work on it but still hasn't. The change did when I became pregnant. I don't think it would be selfish as a friend once told me that it is also important for children to see affection in their parents. That's what is missing in our relationship no affection. And as for the sex part, it's been over a month now b/c I am avoiding it. He is quite happy to just 'do it' without a kiss before, during, or after. > >well, one can only tolerate so much rejection. I have mentioned many > >many times over the years. my original question was if anyone else has [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > other loss of emotional intimacy? And where does the alcohol come > into this? >You're right, I am not a fountain of information here!! I am keeping >it as short as possible.. I think we're a group that kind of likes long. :-) It's a lot easier to tell what's going on with a relationship and offer decent advice if there are more details. >Okay, so my relationship: No emotional contact at all, eg; touching of >the shoulder or hand, kissing, hugging, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >month now b/c I am avoiding it. He is quite happy to just 'do it' >without a kiss before, during, or after. I do think that it's VERY important for children to see affection between their parents. I also think that it's even more important for a child to grow up in a safe and stable environment, and where alcohol is an issue, the environment is very rarely safe and stable. You say that what is missing in your relationship is affection... but is that truly the only thing missing? Because, if it is, if he is otherwise the sort of person you want to be with, if he's a good parent, if you have a relationship that is otherwise all that a marriage should be, then it's probably worth trying to get him to go to a marriage counselor and seeing if the relationship can be salvaged. But I'm guessing that isn't the case. I'm guess that there's a lot more wrong, and the affection is the symptom of deeper problems... which may be mostly related to alcohol, may be related to other things, may be related to the interaction between the two of you... but for whatever reason, it's not a healthy environment for anyone. It's a very stable home. He's a good father and provider. His drinking is now limited to at least after the children go to bed. He doesn't stagger around drunk or anything like that. Only I could tell that he's had a few too many. Just curious, for your opinion as to why it is very important for children to see affection between their parents? I know it's true, just want your opinion. But we both do give our child a lot of affection on a daily basis. If I left it would be more of an unstable home. But I do feel like I am being emotionally neglected, he's a great father, but a terrible husband!! > >You're right, I am not a fountain of information here!! I am keeping > >it as short as possible.. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > you... but for whatever reason, it's not a healthy environment for > anyone. >It's a very stable home. He's a good father and provider. His >drinking is now limited to at least after the children go to bed. He >doesn't stagger around drunk or anything like that. Only I could tell >that he's had a few too many. Just curious, for your opinion as to why >it is very important for children to see affection between their >parents? Because children learn about relationships by watching the adults in their life. Because your child is learning that the way that men and women should relate to each other is without affection. Because your child is learning the role that s/he should play in relationships and how s/he should treat people, and what s/he is seeing is not normal nor healthy. And so, you are very likely tracing the future pattern of your child's emotional life... and is this what you really want for him/her? I didn't, and that's a significant part of the reason I left my first marriage. Not the only reason by any means, but one that weighed heavily with me. Thank-you for your very helpful insight. True, ending a relationship can teach children to run from problems. And true, children seeing this kind of relationship can send wrong message as well. So much to consider. Thank-you again for all your help! > >It's a very stable home. He's a good father and provider. His > >drinking is now limited to at least after the children go to bed. He [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > marriage. Not the only reason by any means, but one that weighed > heavily with me. >Thank-you for your very helpful insight. True, ending a relationship >can teach children to run from problems. And true, children seeing >this kind of relationship can send wrong message as well. So much to >consider. Thank-you again for all your help! Well, I suppose that ending a relationship *could* teach a child to run from problems.... but living with someone who treats you with no affection teaches a child to ignore problems and pretend they don't exist rather than dealing with them. And that it's ok to be treated poorly. And a lot of other negative things. I guess, too, that while it's good to be tenacious and stick with things, teaching a child to always stick to the same path because anything else is running away or giving up is also a recipe for a VERY difficult life. > Thank-you for your very helpful insight. True, ending a relationship > can teach children to run from problems. And true, children seeing > this kind of relationship can send wrong message as well. So much to > consider. Thank-you again for all your help! You might consider going to alt.support.divorce - you can get some insight into what a divorce would actually be like over there. You also need to consider what life would really be like if you divorce. What custody arrangements would you have, for instance? Half-time with each parent? Who gets the children on Thanksgiving? Christmas? Easter? Who provides their health insurance? Who would buy their school clothes? Who makes the decisions about where they live, where they go to school, where if anywhere they go to church? Are you prepared to live in the same school district as your husband (or ex-husband if it comes to that) until the children finish school? What if one of you wants to move out of the area? >> It's a very stable home. He's a good father and provider. His >> drinking is now limited to at least after the children go to bed. He [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > of your child's emotional life... and is this what you really want for > him/her? Do you realize how depressing this really is? (thinking about her (and no doubt, many, many, many other's) situations? And what the kids will turn out like? It's almost enough to make one wish they never were born. I assure you Bill in Co. that my child has a very full and enriched life.... with plenty of love, and support. This is an intimacy problem between two adults, our child doesn't suffer at all. And furthermore, depending on how 'grown-up' the adults behave during a break-up the child can still have every opportunity to lead a fulfilling life providing they still receive plenty of love and support. Believe me, there are alot worse situations than mine. And if you're referring to alcohol, I already mentioned that he drinks only after our child's in bed. So, my question to you Bill in Co. how you can say "Makes one wish they weren't even born...." I certainly don't wish that... > >> It's a very stable home. He's a good father and provider. His > >> drinking is now limited to at least after the children go to bed. He [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > doubt, many, many, many other's) situations? And what the kids will turn out > like? It's almost enough to make one wish they never were born. > I assure you Bill in Co. that my child has a very full and enriched > life.... with plenty of love, and support. This is an intimacy problem [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > bed. So, my question to you Bill in Co. how you can say "Makes one > wish they weren't even born...." I certainly don't wish that... Don't get too bent out of shape about Bill. The sunrise makes him wish he'd never been born, so you have to take his lamentations with a grain of salt. In fact, the only thing that seems to cheer him up is lamenting how much worse everyone else is than he is, so you may have brightened his day. >> I assure you Bill in Co. that my child has a very full and enriched >> life.... with plenty of love, and support. This is an intimacy problem [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > much worse everyone else is than he is, so you may have brightened his > day. Doesn't cheer me up. It just further depresses me. You know what they say about a-s-s-u-m-p-t-i-o-n-s. Or at least you should know. kate said > > Do you realize how depressing this really is? (thinking about her (and no > > doubt, many, many, many other's) situations? And what the kids will turn out [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > bed. So, my question to you Bill in Co. how you can say "Makes one > wish they weren't even born...." I certainly don't wish that... Kate, meet Bill - he desperately searches for the cloud behind every silver lining. Casey > It's a very stable home. He's a good father and provider. His > drinking is now limited to at least after the children go to bed. He [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > be more of an unstable home. But I do feel like I am being emotionally > neglected, he's a great father, but a terrible husband!! What you should think about is what sort of model you are setting up for your children. Your marriage will be what they have in mind as the model for their marriage. If you are emotionally distant from each other, that is what they will grow up thinking marriage is like. If you are affectionate, they'll grow up thinking it is like that. If you get divorced, they'll grow up thinking that marriages with problems are to be ended. If you work on your marriage and improve it, they'll grow up thinking that marriages with problems should be worked on and improved. What message would you like them to have? > You're right, I am not a fountain of information here!! I am keeping > it as short as possible.. > Okay, so my relationship: No emotional contact at all, eg; touching of > the shoulder or hand, kissing, hugging, Some people are just not all that affectionate. I personally couldn't be married to someone like that (I like lots of cuddles and hugs and touches throughout the day), but to each his own! > He is the alcoholic and has intimacy problems, he's admitted it. He > agreed to work on it but still hasn't. I do believe that just because a person is more reserved and not naturally affectionate, doesn't mean they can't enjoy a highly intimate and rewarding relationship. For example, some couples are "mindmates" and relate on a more cerebral level. But it sounds to me like your DH's issues go beyond basic personality type and preferences. The alcoholism is a great big clue that he is retreating from the intimacy of your relationship on purpose. > The change did when I became pregnant. I don't think it would be > selfish as a friend once told me that it is also important for children > to see affection in their parents. That's what is missing in our > relationship no affect |
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