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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / January 2007Setting of Boundaries
Below is from http://www.skysite.org/boundaries.html Any thoughts on how this can be related to marriage??? I would very much like to try to set boundaries with my wife regarding a few things, but I am not quite prepared for what I might have to do to actually enforce them (probably leave). **************************************** Decisions about boundary setting: 1. Decide what you want and don't want from/with people. A good idea is to do this both in general, and with any person or situation that reveals that more boundaries are needed (you know you need boundaries when you are frustrated, angry, or hurt). 2. Decide to be extremely sensitive about boundaries (enlarge your boundaries), and to be constructive about enforcing them. Steps to enforce boundaries: 1. Educate or inform people what they are doing. Just inform them in a matter of fact way. 2. If it continues, tell them what you want and don't want, and how you feel about that. 3. If it continues, warn them how you will separate yourself from them &/or their negative behavior, either temporarily (while it continues), or if necessary, permanently. 4. If it continues, distance yourself as you said you would, preferably short term, long term when necessary. > Below is from http://www.skysite.org/boundaries.html > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > 4. If it continues, distance yourself as you said you would, preferably > short term, long term when necessary. I am going to take a silly example from my life. Laundry. Many years ago, DH's approach to his clothing cost me lots of extra effort doing the laundry. I won't go into what he did that was such a pain. But we both worked full time jobs, there was no earthly reason why I HAD to do his laundry if he made it so hard. I did those steps, though no one told me at the time. My distancing myself from the negative nehavior was to tell him that I was not doing his laundry anymore. No more nagging, whining or complaining. When I came across his laundry in the basket, I threw it in a separate basket in the laundry room which overflowed all over the floor. It was not until he had no clothes to wear that he complained bitterly about how mean spirited it was to do the rest of the families' laundry (mine and our then newborn son) and not his. I calmly told him that he had failed to hear the work he was causing me with the laundry. When he heard and did what needed to be done, I would resume doing his laundry with pleasure. He moaned and groaned. Did like one load himself. And then complied. I used to complain that he worked late too much. I would nag and whine. (He hated the nagging and whining which probably contributed to the amount he had to work late!) He would simply say I am sorry but I have to work late. He did consider practical implications like conflicts in the schedule. He just did not allow me to browbeat him into coming home simply so I would haveless work to do. Are either of these examples helpful? > When I came across his laundry in the basket, I threw it in a > separate basket in the laundry room which overflowed all over the floor. It makes complete sense to me that if you stop doing a job, it should be one that effects the other person much more than you. If I went on strike and refused to wash the sheets, the only person who would ever even notice would be me. >> When I came across his laundry in the basket, I threw it in a >> separate basket in the laundry room which overflowed all over the floor. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > strike and refused to wash the sheets, the only person who would ever > even notice would be me. Yeah I washed the sheets. But he DID kinda run out of clean pants. > >> When I came across his laundry in the basket, I threw it in a > >> separate basket in the laundry room which overflowed all over the floor. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Yeah I washed the sheets. But he DID kinda run out of clean pants. Perfect. > > >> When I came across his laundry in the basket, I threw it in a > > >> separate basket in the laundry room which overflowed all over the floor. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Perfect. I totally don't mind throwing clothes in the washing machine and dryer. I hate folding and I hate putting them away. Same with dishes...I don't mind doing them, but I hate emptying the dish washer or the dish drainer. I also hate making ice. I'm normally the only who uses ice so I guess if I want ice I have to make it. But when I want ice and DD has used it left them empty or returns them to the freezer empty; that really gets me annoyed. You know, to me, a lot of these issues (which is sort of paralleling the other thread) are about respect and helping each other out and again "being on the same team." My husband "has" to have his morning orange juice with protein powder. When I see orange juice running low, I make a note to make sure that a can is defrosting and usually I'll prepare it in order for him to have it for the morning. I do the same with coffee. We both enjoy coffee in the am. He often gets up before I. I set it all up at night and set the timer for when he gets up so it's ready when he wakes up. To me, it's those little things that I do out of caring, respect, kindness, etc. I guess what is going wrong is that it's feeling one-sided. I kind of think that he thinks that he brings home the paycheck so I "should" be doing these things. Or maybe I've made that up in my head. I know I've said this before, but several years ago I led a group for women who had new babies. This one group I led were all former working women who decided to become stay at home moms. One of the biggest, hottest and most confusing topic was: now that I stay home, I feel like I have to do everything since I don't work anymore. In other words, our spouses would have weekends off, but we (they)- I was a new mom at the time too- felt like weekends were just an extension of our regular workweek with babies, housecleaning, cooking, etc. Same with night time....lots of the dads came home and would "babysit" their child so mom could go run to the store to grocery shop or buy diapers. Even though I've worked part time since dd was 5, I've still been the primary care taker of dd. Now that she's older, I'm needed less (although I still need to be here to chauffeur her to music and sports and friends, etc.) and I still feel as if I'm supposed to run the household. I think I'm stuck somewhere in the 60's. > I kind of think that he thinks that he brings home the >paycheck so I "should" be doing these things. Or maybe I've made that [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >night time....lots of the dads came home and would "babysit" their >child so mom could go run to the store to grocery shop or buy diapers. Well, we've sure see a ton of men with SAHM wives post here saying pretty much exactly, I don't think my wife is doing what she should because the house isn't spotless and the food isn't what I'd like or whatever. <And there are lots of men with SAHM wives who do NOT think that, so it's not a blanket statement, guys.> So I think that there could easily be some truth in the idea that he thinks that you "should" be doing these things. On the other hand... I work all the time, and I *still* feel like I should be doing all these things, because like you and the pillows etc., I'm the only one who really cares about them. If I don't do them, no one will. >> I kind of think that he thinks that he brings home the >> paycheck so I "should" be doing these things. Or maybe I've made that [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > whatever. <And there are lots of men with SAHM wives who do NOT think > that, so it's not a blanket statement, guys.> And sometimes it's the other way around. Like: SHE wants it (and the house) to be pretty spotless, and won't even let you use it (like spilling and leaving some water drops on the kitchen counter) w/o being upset and *taking that personally*, as: "if you really cared enuf about me and my feelings, you would clean up those water drops!; since you didn't, you *obviously* don't care about me - end of story. > So I think that there > could easily be some truth in the idea that he thinks that you > "should" be doing these things. On the other hand... I work all the > time, and I *still* feel like I should be doing all these things, > because like you and the pillows etc., I'm the only one who really > cares about them. If I don't do them, no one will. > I am going to take a silly example from my life. Laundry. Many years ago, > DH's approach to his clothing cost me lots of extra effort doing the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Are either of these examples helpful? I don't know about helpful, but I understand them. Part of my reasoning for setting boundaries is that one of the reasons my wife gives me for not feeling like sex is because she is tired ... or it is too late. In our situation, my wife has alot to do, but also alot of flexibility as to when to do it. I own a business and work 50 to 60 hours a week. She is a stay at home mom. We have three children youngest grade 5 oldest grade 8. My schedule is up at 7, drive two kids to school, work till 5 or 6. Home for supper ... then drive kids to sports till 9 or so. Then free time from 9 to 11:30 or so ... bed time. About the only flexible time I have is between 9 and 11:30. Her schedule is up at 7 - make lunches (of which I assist sometimes), drive one child to school (other school). Then she has from 8:15 to 4:00pm to do as she likes. She gets the kids doing homework, etc. Starts supper at 4:30 or 5. Might drive a kid to sports if one is already gone. The can do as she likes from 9pm to whenever she goes to bed. She has chosen to spend most of her days with friends and her nights doing housework. She will get annoyed if she is doing housework and I am at the computer playing poker online (play money). My freetime in the evening is spent watching Grays Anatomy, Desperate Housewives, or House or playing poker. When I am watching TV I will often help fold laundry. I have asked her to spend a couple of days per week at home doing housework, so that she doesn't have to be up late at night. She doesn't want to because she is a 'night owl'. I think it is also because she is avoiding intimacy. Am I wrong to try to set a boundary where she needs to come to bed by 11:30pm? What could I do as a punishment/incentive to make this happen? > > I am going to take a silly example from my life. Laundry. Many years > > ago, DH's approach to his clothing cost me lots of extra effort [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > 11:30pm? > What could I do as a punishment/incentive to make this happen? Sam, I think you misunderstand the notion of setting boundaries. I'm sympathetic to your situation, but you telling your wife she needs to come to bed by 11:30 is not setting a boundary. I'm not really sure that your situation is amenable to a boundary setting solution. Did you read Stephanie's post about not doing her husband's laundray unless he made it reasonably easy to do? _That_ was an example of setting a boundary. > Sam, I think you misunderstand the notion of setting boundaries. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > unless he made it reasonably easy to do? _That_ was an example of > setting a boundary. I guess you are correct. I am just finding a hard time trying to get my wife to realize how important this issue to me is. I just feel like the only option left is to set some kind of ultimatum. Put some effort into our relationship, or else. I just don't know what the 'or else' part is. I know I'm not ready to leave her and the children. > > Sam, I think you misunderstand the notion of setting boundaries. > > I'm sympathetic to your situation, but you telling your wife she [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > don't know what the 'or else' part is. I know I'm not ready to leave > her and the children. Have you tried setting the sexual intimacy aside, telling your wife that you love her and want to spend more time with her, and feel like your marriage is suffering because you aren't connecting as a couple, asking her to schedule with you (say) two evenings a week (maybe one out, and one at home) where you spend time with each other? Another poster suggested something like this, and I know from experience that it can be effective. Not necessarily as a last step, but as a first step. The ultimaturm I had to make in my marriage was, essentially, this isn't working well for me. You may be happy with things, but I'm not. I want to go to couples counseling to see if we can get things working better. If we don't improve things, I can't guarantee that I'm going to stay in the marriage forever. >> Sam, I think you misunderstand the notion of setting boundaries. >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >what the 'or else' part is. I know I'm not ready to leave her and the >children. I went through this with my first husband, especially trying to set... oh, not boundaries exactly, but trying to impose some kind of rules (another bad word) that would work for me. And the biggest issue was *exactly* yours, just in case you think that this is just a guy thing. I'd go to bed early so that I could be with him; he'd spend half the night on the phone talking about fantasy football, by the time he'd come to bed, I'd be out like a light, and I'd also be pissed as hell because for the billionth time, I felt like I was far less important than anything else to him. I was the thing that he couldn't find time for. And I have to say that nothing ever changed, period. Ultimately I got to the point where I just didn't give a damn any more, and stopped waiting for him, and stopped trying. And it's probably THEN that I might have been able to make the "this isn't working for me, change or I want out" threat. But by then, I just didn't care enough. Something in me simply shut off. I'm telling this, I guess, because I've kind of been parts of where you are, and I could never find an effective solution. But your wife might very likely be more responsive than my ex was. I think Doug's advice has some merit, but I always think that when you put the "do this or I will leave" threat on the table, you'd better be willing to back it up. One the other hand... I didn't say when I still cared enough to try, and, well, the rest is history. >>>Sam, I think you misunderstand the notion of setting boundaries. >>> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > back it up. One the other hand... I didn't say when I still cared > enough to try, and, well, the rest is history. Thanks Nina, it sounds like you know what I am going through. I feel I am headed to where you ended up. >>>>Sam, I think you misunderstand the notion of setting boundaries. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >Thanks Nina, it sounds like you know what I am going through. I feel I >am headed to where you ended up. But maybe not, Sam. Nothing is certain until it happens, and you're thinking about this and talking about this long before I did. That's hopeful. I would seriously, seriously think about the go to counseling with or without her advice. Because if you don't do something really different, you probably ARE headed down that same road. And I don't think you really want to go there if you can help it. >I guess you are correct. I am just finding a hard time trying to get my >wife to realize how important this issue to me is. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >what the 'or else' part is. I know I'm not ready to leave her and the >children. It's very reasonable to expect her to put some effort into the relationship. Perhaps you could say something like, "I need you to put more effort into re-establishing a connection between the two of us. I want us to go to counseling to help us to get back on track." Then the "Or else" could be that you'll go to counseling on your own, to determine whether or not you can stay in this type of a marriage. Someone else here, I don't remember who (Doug, maybe?) went through a similar situation and that was the wake-up call that his spouse needed. I do think that if you feel the marriage is in a dire position or you are extremely unhappy, that an ultimatum can be a good thing. Really all you're doing is making the point about how extremely sad and unhappy you are. But telling her that she has to be to bed by 11:30.....she's not a child and if you treat her like one, you can pretty much kiss any chance of re-establishing your sex life goodbye. IMHO. Lauri in WA > But telling her that she has to be to bed by 11:30.....she's not a > child and if you treat her like one, you can pretty much kiss any > chance of re-establishing your sex life goodbye. IMHO. Very true! (BTDT) >> Sam, I think you misunderstand the notion of setting boundaries. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> Did you read Stephanie's post about not doing her husband's laundray unless he made it reasonably easy to do? _That_ was >> an example of setting a boundary. > > I guess you are correct. I am just finding a hard time trying to get my wife to realize how important this issue to me is. Not that this is going to help you, but there was (to me and a few friends) a breakthrough moment in "The Breakup" where Vince Vaughn asks Jennifer Aniston something to the effect of "Why didn't you tell me it was that important to you?" And she's gobsmacked, cos she had said it in so many ways... Perhaps your wife is [unconsciously] telling you something? Perhaps she is frustrated about not having her needs me somewhere and this is just her "acting out". I am not one to recommend therapy as a rule, but have you two thought of going to therapy? I'd be interested to know who of the two of you would be game for counselling. > I just feel like the only option left is to set some kind of > ultimatum. Put some effort into our relationship, or else. I just > don't know > what the 'or else' part is. I know I'm not ready to leave her and the children. The really odd thing about us human beings is that we are seldom motivated to change or rethink our attitudes if we are not threatened with an ultimatum. Of course this is just my perception... - Michaela >>> Sam, I think you misunderstand the notion of setting boundaries. >>> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >> what the 'or else' part is. I know I'm not ready to leave her and >> the children. I'm just going to fix my own post here. > It seems to me that when we human beings no longer feel like honouring our commitment to our relationship we are not motivated to change or reflect on our behaviour and make a concerted effort to change it if we are not threatened with an ultimatum or we realise we have pushed our luck just that little bit too far. If I only do something because I've been made aware I may lose it, surely that can't be love? ``` It'd appear it's much easier to make an effort (in fact, it seems effortless) when we're still working on making the reslationship work. I'm not sure that's love either. - Michaela > > I am going to take a silly example from my life. Laundry. Many years ago, > > DH's approach to his clothing cost me lots of extra effort doing the [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > my wife gives me for not feeling like sex is because she is tired ... or > it is too late. What she means by that is that she's tired, or it's late. Seriously. You might not feel like tiredness would discourage you, but if she says it does for her, then it does. > In our situation, my wife has alot to do, but also alot of flexibility > as to when to do it. I have the flexibility of mornings and evenings with stuff I do around the house. Nevertheless, some stuff just works better with my own rhythms to do in the morning (like dishes). People aren't as flexible as you think. Are you an engineer by any chance? > I own a business and work 50 to 60 hours a week. > She is a stay at home mom. We have three children youngest grade 5 [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Am I wrong to try to set a boundary where she needs to come to bed by > 11:30pm? Yes. That's appropriate for a child, not your wife. > What could I do as a punishment/incentive to make this happen? Uh... this is what I meant in my post about "you aren't training a puppy". You seem to be trying to apply a puppy-training or child-rearing model to working out a marital issue. That is doomed to result in unhappy people on both sides. I have some paradoxical advice to give you: take the whole sex and intimacy issue off the table and start scheduling weekend time which is kid-free, phone-free, and discussions- of-intimacy-free. Just time to reconnect. Take off the pressure and the expectations. Learn how to like each other again. - Randy <snipped> > I don't know about helpful, but I understand them. > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > House or playing poker. When I am watching TV I will often help fold > laundry. Sam, there may be a bit more to her day than you realize. I've recently gone from 5-and-a-half years of being a SAHM to working 50-60 hours per week off-farm. I feel like I'm on vacation. KWIM? The thing is, Chewy and the kids always seemed to think I had *loads* of time to do all the errands they felt I needed to do, and they'd get irritated about things I didn't get done for them during the day. Now I can make them take care of their own errands, for a little while yet anyhow. (I still wind up with things like calling the propane company this morning to order a delivery because Chewy was used to *me* keeping an eye on the propane level, so we ran too low - during the current freezing temps.) > I have asked her to spend a couple of days per week at home doing > housework, so that she doesn't have to be up late at night. She doesn't > want to because she is a 'night owl'. I think it is also because she is > avoiding intimacy. Perhaps you can start building that intimacy you want by spending more time at home *with* her. That's one of the things we've had to work out in our home. When Chewy's seperating himself into another room, it builds emotional walls between him and [the kids and me]. When he spends a little time in the evening working on something *with* us, watching a show with us, or all of us in the same room reading, etc, we all feel closer. There's WAY more to intimacy than sex. > Am I wrong to try to set a boundary where she needs to come to bed by > 11:30pm? > What could I do as a punishment/incentive to make this happen? I've a feeling you'll regret taking the path it seems you're talking about here. Build closeness, so she'll WANT to go to bed when you do. Kitten YAY. Great to see you! A. > YAY. Great to see you! Thanks. I hardly ever am near a computer that's online, let alone have energy to read/write to the group. Just as I got used to 9 hours a day, 6 days a week, one of the night shift guys quit, so I'm now going in a 5am, working until 2pm, then going back at 4pm, and working until 10pm. Oh, and no break on Saturday What fun. :-/ But I still love the job. I just need some rest. Kitten > Perhaps you can start building that intimacy you want by spending more > time at home *with* her. That's one of the things we've had to work [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > watching a show with us, or all of us in the same room reading, etc, we > all feel closer. Excellent point! Sam, your DW might be the type who feels emotionally close to her partner through shared work activity, and reaching goals together. That laundry? It might be her version of foreplay, believe it or not! Maybe she deliberately waits until you are home to do it, because somewhere in her lovemap it reads: "mom and dad were always laughing and giving each other goo-goo eyes while folding the laundry together every night." jen >>Perhaps you can start building that intimacy you want by spending more >>time at home *with* her. That's one of the things we've had to work [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > each other goo-goo eyes while folding the laundry together every > night." I agree ... this sometimes helps. But sometimes it just feels like I am doing the housework, which gives her another 3 hours to do as she pleases the next day. The other problem is that she feels pressure to have sex with me because I was helping. I feel like I am helping in order to get sex. It isn't a healthy relationship, when you can't just be together because you want to. >>> Perhaps you can start building that intimacy you want by spending >>> more time at home *with* her. That's one of the things we've had [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > order to get sex. It isn't a healthy relationship, when you can't > just be together because you want to. Congratulations on being so honest with yourself. - Michaela Ok, lol, strike that last post of mine. This isn't a boundary issue. It's a burnout issue. I have done the 'mommy track' routine, raising four kids, et al., and it is no bed of roses. Not only are you very tired by the end of the day, but the sexual/hormonal thing is non-existent for many young mothers. My suggestion to you would be closer to working towards spending more individual and uninterupted time with her. Make Thursday night "Date Night" where you have special plans that you can do together (the less complicated the better). Dinner at a local breakfast restaurant where you can sit across from each other and there isn't anyone but the other guy staring back at you so that you can actually spend time sharing, maybe laughing, probably getting back in touch with each other. Your concerns will be met with more deeply entrenched isolation if you force anything upon her, as if she has nothing to do with the act itself. Making love is an extension of what your relationship looks like outside the bedroom (mostly). If you are able to be playful, communicate, share and trust each other OUT THERE, it is going to be that way in your time together being intimate with each other as well. She is stressed and sounds tapped out. Cutting down on some of the non-essential responsiblities and over-commitments with kid activities might have to be enacted to restore the time and energy that is being spent on things that are not primary to your life together. People get their priorities screwed up all the time, so it's nothing new to have to sit down and reevaluate them from time to time. I would encourage you to approach her at the right moment and in a spirit of love. Tab > > I am going to take a silly example from my life. Laundry. Many years ago, > > DH's approach to his clothing cost me lots of extra effort doing the [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > 11:30pm? > What could I do as a punishment/incentive to make this happen? > Ok, lol, strike that last post of mine. This isn't a boundary issue. > It's a burnout issue. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > I would encourage you to approach her at the right moment and in a > spirit of love. Yes it is a time issue. But I think it is more a priority issue. When the kids were younger, she was overworked and I understood why she was tired all the time. We have discussed it many times. She gets all defensive about it. "You just want me to get a job. You want me to give up my friends." I try to tell her that we need to spend more time together, but she isn't willing to spend more of her time during the day (while I'm at work) doing things around the house so that she doesn't have to do them late at night. > Tab > [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] >>11:30pm? >>What could I do as a punishment/incentive to make this happen? > > Ok, lol, strike that last post of mine. This isn't a boundary issue. > > It's a burnout issue. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > work) doing things around the house so that she doesn't have to do > them late at night. This is an example of a boundary issue. By trying to tell her what to do during the day, you are stepping over _her_ boundaries. I understand why you are doing this, it is a desire to free up time so that the two of you can have couple time. But it is the wrong way to do it. Instead ask her if the two of you can schedule couple time (even if it doesn't involve sex) and make a firm committment to keeping that schedule. (I'm talking about scheduling well in advance - days, not hours.) Then _she_ can do what she feels she needs to do to be available then. >>>Ok, lol, strike that last post of mine. This isn't a boundary issue. >>>It's a burnout issue. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > This is an example of a boundary issue. By trying to tell her what to > do during the day, you are stepping over _her_ boundaries. So if I go out every night and hang out with friends, would it be a boundary issue for her to ask me not to? I see what you are saying, but I don't think I am asking too much of her. > I understand why you are doing this, it is a desire to free up time so > that the two of you can have couple time. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Then _she_ can do what she feels she needs to do to be available > then. I think I will forget about the intimacy/sex for a while. I am going to get her to schedule time for the two of us to just be together doing something with no strings attached. (snip) > >>I try to tell her that we need to spend more time together, but she > >>isn't willing to spend more of her time during the day (while I'm at [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > So if I go out every night and hang out with friends, would it be a > boundary issue for her to ask me not to? if she said "don't go out with your friends," yes, she would be crossing your boundaries. If she asked you to do something with her instead, that is _not_ a boundary issue. > I see what you are saying, but I don't think I am asking too much of > her. You aren't asking too much, you are asking the _wrong_ thing. What you want is time together with her. You should be asking for that directly, and far enough in advance so she has a chance to accomodate that. Instead, by asking her to do housework during the day, you are being indirect by not really asking for what you want, and you are interfering with her autonomy. (The indirection is probably for two reasons. One, it feels unsafe and vulnerable to just say "I need time with you, can we please schedule that." So you are hoping to make her time free enough so that this will happen without asking. But also it has a slightly passive-agressive element. By not really asking for what you want, you are setting her up to disappoint you, and then setting yourself up to be resentful about it.) > > I understand why you are doing this, it is a desire to free up time > > so [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > to get her to schedule time for the two of us to just be together > doing something with no strings attached. Excellent plan! >>So if I go out every night and hang out with friends, would it be a >>boundary issue for her to ask me not to? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If she asked you to do something with her instead, that is _not_ a > boundary issue. I honestly don't see the difference. I am asking her to change her schedule so that she can do something with me instead. >>I see what you are saying, but I don't think I am asking too much of >>her. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > you are setting her up to disappoint you, and then setting yourself up > to be resentful about it.) You make it sound like these are two separate things and that they aren't related or that my wife isn't aware that they are related. Like one day I tell her to not see any friends and stay home and do housework. To just say this, without both her and I knowing the reason, sounds like a terrible thing to say to someone. And I would never say this to her without her knowing that I am asking her so that we have time at night to be together. > You make it sound like these are two separate things and that they > aren't related or that my wife isn't aware that they are related. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > without her knowing that I am asking her so that we have time at night > to be together. The idea is to present the problem and let *her* find a solution for it, instead of offering a solution that you think is sensible. You can tell her that you need more together time and feel like your relationship is suffering because of the distance. Then ask her for her input and opinion as to how to address this problem. Tell her you are open to any suggestion, and willing to do what she needs in order to improve the situation. This way the ball is in her court, and she is responsible and empowered to come up with a workable plan. What you need is quality time with her. You don't need her to stop seeing her friend and stay home. Who knows, maybe she doesn't need to stop seeing friends and stay home, maybe she can see her friend and find another way to set up a time with you. Maybe the reason she's not giving you the time has nothing to do with going out with friends. Maybe she needs something else. If you put her in charge of coming up with a solution and assure her that you are willing to do what you can to help her with it, she's more likely to respond positively. >>>So if I go out every night and hang out with friends, would it be a >>>boundary issue for her to ask me not to? [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > without her knowing that I am asking her so that we have time at night to > be together. How about instead you just ask, hey let's make time together on Wednesday night? > Like one day I tell her to not see any friends and stay home and do > housework. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to her without her knowing that I am asking her so that we have time > at night to be together. It sounds like a terrible thing to say even if you know the reason. Doug is right -- what you want is the quality time with her. By making it about the housework or her friends, you put her on the defensive. Doing that makes it less likely that you'll get what you want. Zorra >> Like one day I tell her to not see any friends and stay home and do >> housework. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Zorra Phttttt. That was what I was trying to say. >>>Like one day I tell her to not see any friends and stay home and do >>>housework. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Phttttt. That was what I was trying to say. > You guys are all correct! I like that she has friends, I like that she spends time with them. I need to find a different way and it is going to have to start with me being a better friend and partner to her. > >>So if I go out every night and hang out with friends, would it be a > >>boundary issue for her to ask me not to? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I honestly don't see the difference. I am asking her to change her > schedule so that she can do something with me instead. OK, then maybe you should do some individual therapy before you guys do couples therapy! I'm sort of joking, but you are being indirect when you suggest to her how she schedule her activities when you aren't around, and since that isn't _really_ what you care about (you care about what she does when you are around) it is a distraction to center your request around that. I'll say it again: -What you _want_ is more attention from her when you _are_ around. -To get this, you may need to ask for it. -Since your wife doesn't do well with you doing this spontaneously, you'll need to do it in advance. -Then, if she says "yes." it will be up to her to figure out how to manage the rest of her schedule, not you. If you can't manage to ask for this, or if your wife can't manage to follow through (either is quite possible) then you really should go to a couples counselor and see what your respective blockages are about. > >>I see what you are saying, but I don't think I am asking too much of > >>her. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > You make it sound like these are two separate things and that they > aren't related or that my wife isn't aware that they are related. No, that isn't it at all. You brought up boundaries. I'm pointing out that _you_ are transgressing your _wife's_ boundaries. It is true that to give you more time, she may have to rejigger how she spends her days. The asking for more time is something you should do. But how to rejigger the rest of her time is her business. >>>>So if I go out every night and hang out with friends, would it be a >>>>boundary issue for her to ask me not to? [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > follow through (either is quite possible) then you really should go to > a couples counselor and see what your respective blockages are about. I hear you. I need to take a different approach. >>>>> So if I go out every night and hang out with friends, would it be >>>>> a boundary issue for her to ask me not to? [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > I hear you. I need to take a different approach. I think you've received some excellent advice. I just want to add a comment or maybe even a note of caution, about what you might get as a first response because I don't want you to be disheartened if what I think might happen does. You see I think it's quite likely that you'll also get some initial reluctance from your wife to spend more time with you. While you were concentrating on her time management practices she was able to feel justly defensive about you treating her like a subordinate. However, your wife has reached a sort of balance in her life that she is satisfied with on some level, else she'd be seeking change herself. So if she doesn't immediately react with enthusiasm to the idea of *more* opportunities for being emotionally intimate with you (with or without more sex) then the two of you are going to have to be very honest with each other as to just why she is reluctant to become closer to you. I'm sorry to present such an unoptimistic view but I believe you two have a lot of ground to make up before she will feel easy and relaxed by more concentrated intimacy between you. The whole idea could be fraught with anxiety and discomfort for her. So be patient and try not to feel too hurt if this happens but do expect to have to talk about what she wants out of your relationship as well as what you want and be prepared for there to be a continuing difference in those two sets of hopes. I do hope you will be able to find what's been missing for each of you. Tai Tai >> >>So if I go out every night and hang out with friends, would it be a >> >>boundary issue for her to ask me not to? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > isn't _really_ what you care about (you care about what she does when > you are around) it is a distraction to center your request around that. Unless in fact he cares about what she does when he is not around? Sam could you be resentful that you deem her schedule as ... easier than yours? > I'll say it again: > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > her days. The asking for more time is something you should do. But > how to rejigger the rest of her time is her business. >>OK, then maybe you should do some individual therapy before you guys >>do couples therapy! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Unless in fact he cares about what she does when he is not around? Sam could > you be resentful that you deem her schedule as ... easier than yours? Not easier. But I do feel a little resentful that her life is more fun. She has more friends. She has more leisure time. Less stress. But she puts in more hours in a day than I do. She can be up until 2am and then up again at 7am. I am wasted if I do this. > Not easier. But I do feel a little resentful that her life is more fun. > She has more friends. She has more leisure time. Less stress. Do you like your own job? jen >>Not easier. But I do feel a little resentful that her life is more fun. >> She has more friends. She has more leisure time. Less stress. > > Do you like your own job? > > jen Most of the time. >>>OK, then maybe you should do some individual therapy before you guys >>>do couples therapy! [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Not easier. But I do feel a little resentful that her life is more fun. > She has more friends. She has more leisure time. Less stress. I totally understand how difficult it is to get out and do things for yourself, make friends and such when you are busy. But it can be done. I have children in my care from 7:00 - 5:30 (except when Mom's show up at 5:25 and can't get their kids to leave... like tonight). I often have activity planning and or food prep type stuff to do when the kids are not around. I still manage to go to dance class one night a week many weeks and go out with friends in the evenings sometimes. I would wonder if you could get out to the gym during a lunch break? Do you have a burning desire to try out racketball or some such? It would not hurt to get rid of the resentment. I can't see how it would hurt to get some outside fun in your life either. When she calls you needy, are you kinda needy in your everyday life? That sounds harsh. I don't mean it to be. But neediness is not super attractive. I am not sure exactly how to not waft needy in those areas where she is the only one who can meet your needs (ie sex). But if you get some companionship outside, maybe she will not feel you are so needy? I don't know. Just a thought. > But she puts in more hours in a day than I do. She can be up until 2am > and then up again at 7am. I am wasted if I do this. >>>>OK, then maybe you should do some individual therapy before you guys >>>>do couples therapy! [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > to the gym during a lunch break? Do you have a burning desire to try out > racketball or some such? I play squash one or two nights a week. > It would not hurt to get rid of the resentment. I can't see how it would > hurt to get some outside fun in your life either. When she calls you needy, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > needs (ie sex). But if you get some companionship outside, maybe she will > not feel you are so needy? I don't know. Just a thought. I don't believe I am needy outside my marriage. The type of companionship that I feel I need can only come from her. >>> So if I go out every night and hang out with friends, would it be a >>> boundary issue for her to ask me not to? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I honestly don't see the difference. I am asking her to change her > schedule so that she can do something with me instead. Try and think of it this way. Have you ever had a micromanager as a boss? Someone who says 'Okay, this needs to be done. First, I want you to do A, then do B, then C, then D, then E, taking an hour to do each thing and bring it back to me after each step so I can make sure you're doing it right.' How would you like working for someone like that rather than for a person who says 'I need this done by 5 pm today, please' then leaves it up to you which step you do in which order or even doesn't even care if all the steps are taken, just so the result is right. You seemingly want to micromanage your wife. That rarely makes for good feelings. Reading your posts in this thread, it really sounds as if you have misinterpreted boundaries. Boundaries are not 'rules'. Boundaries are lines in the sand, so to speak, that you set for *yourself*. You cannot set another person's boundaries for them. That's, forgive me, crossing a boundary. An example would be setting a boundary of not allowing people to take advantage of you. You would do that by telling people no when you really don't want to do a favor for them. A 'nonexample' of setting a boundary would be to tell someone not to ask you for favors. Tracey >>>> So if I go out every night and hang out with friends, would it be a >>>> boundary issue for her to ask me not to? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > You seemingly want to micromanage your wife. That rarely makes for > good feelings. I haven't actually given her an ultimatum like we have been talking about. I was asking what people thought of the idea. I don't tell her how to cook supper, or even what to cook. I don't tell her when to be home and when to leave. All I have ever really done is suggest that she come to bed sooner so we can be intimate more. I admit that I have made comments about how much time she spends out with friends when we aren't getting along. But she has also commented about how much time I spend on the computer. Does this make her a micromanager? > >>>> So if I go out every night and hang out with friends, would it be a > >>>> boundary issue for her to ask me not to? [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > But she has also commented about how much time I spend on the > computer. Does this make her a micromanager? That depends. If those comments are in response to yours, then she is being defensive, not micromanagerial. If those comments are spontaneous, then she too has things she wants from you (that part is good) which she is not willing to ask for directly (that part is bad). <snipped> > > You aren't asking too much, you are asking the _wrong_ thing. What > > you want is time together with her. You should be asking for that [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > You make it sound like these are two separate things and that they > aren't related or that my wife isn't aware that they are related. >From what you've written, you're 1) telling her what to do instead of asking her, and 2) not asking her directly to spend more time with you. Two huge issues, IME. > Like one day I tell her to not see any friends and stay home and do > housework. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > without her knowing that I am asking her so that we have time at night > to be together. But to *tell* her not to see any friends and to stay home doing housework is over-stepping her boundaries. You're her husband, not her father and not her employer. I wish Chewy was around to tell you what would happen if he tried that tack with me. Rebellion isn't nearly strong enough a word. Kitten >>>> Ok, lol, strike that last post of mine. This isn't a boundary issue. >>>> It's a burnout issue. [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > get her to schedule time for the two of us to just be together doing > something with no strings attached. I just called her ... to go for lunch ... but she is out with a friend. > I just called her ... to go for lunch ... but she is out with a friend. You mentioned before she doesn't like surprises or spur of the moment. Make a date in advance. My husband and I were sort of going through this just recently, We just had our last child and she will be one year and he wanted to know when we were going to go back to being a couple again and I said that I was more than fine with it but it is an effort on both of our parts. The girls make us really tired right now because they are 3 and 1...but we do manage to get time out for eachother. We hire a babysitter to watch the kids and we are going to spend a weekend together as my mom has offered a full weekend to stay with the girls so that is going to be AWESOME we already planned the weekend so we are set. I think that your wife needs to realize that she is in a marriage and there is more to it than just you bringing money home. There is companionship too and maybe you should tell her that yu are feeling a bit neglecting even if it is just to hug eachother for an hour! Sandra Ellison > > I just called her ... to go for lunch ... but she is out with a friend. > > You mentioned before she doesn't like surprises or spur of the moment. > Make a date in advance. > I think I will forget about the intimacy/sex for a while. I am going to > get her to schedule time for the two of us to just be together doing > something with no strings attached. Movies are a really good start when you are feeling all at odds with your spouse. You can be together and have fun without the pressure of talking the whole time. After the movie you can talk about the movie and it might move into talking about your lives too (but it doesn't have to). > We have discussed it many times. She gets all defensive about it. "You > just want me to get a job. You want me to give up my friends." I try > to tell her that we need to spend more time together, but she isn't > willing to spend more of her time during the day (while I'm at work) > doing things around the house so that she doesn't have to do them late > at night. She's avoiding you. Her major "long term relationship" IS her friends. She's married to her friends right now, not to you. She may view them as more supportive in the accomplishment of all the tasks related to being a mom. Doing chores can be fun - if there are no little kids around while you're doing it. Personally, I could never clean well and deal with babies, toddlers, preschoolers, elementary school kids, middle school kids. high school kids OR college kids. I so far haven't met any other kinds of kids or had them in my home much. Being forced to relate to a spouse that I perceive as (at best) non-supportive in dealing with the thousands of interruptions, frustrations, stray thoughts, stray syllables, repetitions of phrases, thinking and actions - while taking care of the kids - is NOT a vacation from being around kids. it's the same thing! If I were going to clean while kids were around - I'd choose the chronologically oldest kid (my husband) to do it around. I'd hope that he'd see the point and chip in to help (If I'm still working, he's still working). Since you say that she departs the family residence to spend time with friends - and I can't remember your details - does that mean she's out partying while the kids are in school? If so - then, look at the picture very clearly. She probably sees taking care of the house and the kids as her job (you pay her for it, apparently) and her "time off" is spent as she likes. Your time off isn't going so well. Whereas your wife has people who WANT to spend quality time with her (she calls them friends) and make the time to do it, you apparently are not on her list of "friends." You expect her to automatically be your friend, when you come home from work, but it doesn't work like that. Do you have friends? Your wife is not going to give up her LTR to be with you right away. Perhaps you need to transfer the expectation of friendly sociality to another place (like the internet or go learn to play soccer or invite friends over - I don't know). Your bedtime rule idea speaks volumes, btw. It's true that if your wife was your friend - and furthermore, had a submissive personality or style of relating to you - she would agree to a bedtime. I suspect that's a very very small percentage of women - and if that's the kind of woman you expected to be married to, you really blew it in your choice of mate. You should have looked high and low and scoured the earth for the handful of adult women who would want to be your best friend and to submit to you and allow you to arrange details of their daily existence. There ARE women like this - quite a few, perhaps your mom was one or you knew them growing up (I'm curious how you ever got to think you could set your wife's bedtime?).... If it's down to that (nothing is in your control AND you are attempting to resort to bedtime rules) you need massive reshaping of your own head, dude. You can do it, though - and you'll be much happier after you clarify all this. Good start, btw! This is tough stuff you're dealing with. A. >>We have discussed it many times. She gets all defensive about it. "You >>just want me to get a job. You want me to give up my friends." I try [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > as more supportive in the accomplishment of all the tasks related to > being a mom. Her friends are important to her, but I think I am as well. We are just in a rut, where she is feeling pressured to have sex with me and I have been focusing too hard on being intimate with her (in my way - physical) and not paying enough attention to her way (mental). > Doing chores can be fun - if there are no little kids around while > you're doing it. Personally, I could never clean well and deal with [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > he'd see the point and chip in to help (If I'm still working, he's > still working). Our kids are between grades 5 and 8. I would like her to do housework when they are in school and I am at work. But I realize that when she does them is up to her. But she has to realize that we need some together time as well. > Since you say that she departs the family residence to spend time with > friends - and I can't remember your details - does that mean she's out > partying while the kids are in school? If so - then, look at the > picture very clearly. She isn't partying ... she is shopping and exercing and going for coffee and helping friends with decorating, etc. I'm not sure what you are saying, but I trust her totally. > She probably sees taking care of the house and the kids as her job (you > pay her for it, apparently) and her "time off" is spent as she likes. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > friendly sociality to another place (like the internet or go learn to > play soccer or invite friends over - I don't know). I have a few friends but not near as many as her or as much free time to spend time with them. > Your bedtime rule idea speaks volumes, btw. I don't have a 'bedtime rule'. If you read back, I asked what people thought of this suggestion. That she spend more time doing housework during the day so that she has more time for me at night. I now see that it is reasonable for me to ask her to spend more time with me, but not to dictate when she goes to bed or when she sees her friends or does housework. > >>We have discussed it many times. She gets all defensive about it. "You > Her friends are important to her, but I think I am as well. That's VERY good to hear. Throughout this thread, you've mentioned several positive aspects to your situation, I hope you hold onto them. It's sort of like pulling teeth, though, to get you to mention some of them. You need to realize that you yourself are very hurt by this situation (believe me, I would be too - but I'd have thrown a fit a long time before, and I'm realizing that women are permitted to throw fits (and objects, actually) in our popular mind and our popular media - it's *okay* for women to get pissy under similar circumstances). We are just > in a rut, where she is feeling pressured to have sex with me and I have > been focusing too hard on being intimate with her (in my way - physical) > and not paying enough attention to her way (mental). I hear you. Of course, while you denied earlier that you have "rules" for her - and you bring up sexual withholding as negotiating on another thread - it seems to me that both of you have caged yourselves in, sexually speaking. I think your mental vs. physical thing is WAY too simplistic (and doomed to failure). This idea that women are mostly "mental" in sex is easy to misconstrue. Of course we are. But, there's nothing like a strong male body pressed firmly into one's own body to make a "mental" state suddenly pop up that wasn't there before. It doesn't have to be on the road to the bedroom - it can be an intense hug in the morning, a suggestion of eroticism for later on - it may take days of this before a woman is ready to respond, especially if she's overworked or pissed off. But there are physical feelings that women like to experience as well (and not just kissing, and not just your standard idea of foreplay). The woman often likes a sense of strong support, of real initiation - of leadership, in this domain. Since you're generalizing about your wife (quite a bit) and haven't told us what mental processes (fantasies) that you KNOW she wants you to trigger or work with - you need to change your approach to her "mentality" - because I'm telling you, you know so little about it, I can't imagine that you can leap right in successfully. > > Doing chores can be fun - if there are no little kids around while > > you're doing it. Personally, I could never clean well and deal with [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > does them is up to her. But she has to realize that we need some > together time as well. Which is why I find it interesting that you RESIST addressing my earlier point - which is that while you contend she wants quality time with you, she doesn't make time for it. WAKE UP. If she WANTED to spend time with you - she would. You claim she does - but then you continue to provide only evidence of the opposite. But I'll bit. What makes you think (at all) that she wants to spend qualitly time with you. Try to skip past what she says and tell me what it is she DOES (makes a special dinner? asks you out to dinner? skips her friends once in awhile and spontaneously calls you?) WHAT does she do that makes you think she actually wants to spend quality time with you? When was the last time she initiated such a thing? What was it? If you can figure that out, you've got your foot in the door. > > Since you say that she departs the family residence to spend time with > > friends - and I can't remember your details - does that mean she's out [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and helping friends with decorating, etc. I'm not sure what you are > saying, but I trust her totally. That's PARTYING to me, my friend. Do you know what I do all day? I WORK. Even right now, while I'm typing this, I'm waiting for an applet to jump to the next screen, working (tedious, tedious data entry) and then hopping back over here while it posts and typing. I WORK. ALL DAY. I do not have time to shop (going to the mall with one or the other of my DAUGHTERS - never a friend, no time - would be the HEIGHT of partying to me. We'd get a pretzel! We'd talk and laugh and buy stuff! The gym? Ah - glory, glory - I would LOVE it. Instead, I go to physical therapy - thankful I have a disability, I guess, because it's almost the same as the gym - but taking care of oneself physically - ah, wonderful. HELPING FRIENDS DECORATE? PARTY. To me. I'll bet she gets her nails done too.) A party is any time you're having fun - especially with others. What did you think I meant? You have a remarkable way of assuming a very narrow use of language when it suits you (your "boundary" about bedtime is not a quest for "rule" - it's something else; your wife wants quality time with you - but avoids it - the word "want" doesn't seem to mean to you what it means to others on this thread). Now, you avoid the central meaning of what I posted and tell me she's "not partying." Sure she is. She just isn't (apparently) drinking and doing drugs. That's NOT what makes a party, Sam. > > She probably sees taking care of the house and the kids as her job (you > > pay her for it, apparently) and her "time off" is spent as she likes. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I have a few friends but not near as many as her or as much free time to > spend time with them. Right. I don't have that many friends I spend time with either - because I work. I have a full time job AND a part time job (two kids in college, one just out - should be easing up). I run a small business. My leisure time is spent doing housework, paying bills - or opting into internet amusements or other home-based hobbies (I have many) - all of which include my DH. He's on his 'puter right now, with his hand gently caressing my right foot and the cat curled up between us. We spent two hours in bed just talking and petting each other - so nice on a Saturday. We plan for sex, btw - and joke about adding extra sex each week. We went to a Steely Dan concert last night and I TOLD him that no matter how sexy I looked, he would be too tired by the time we got home - and he was, but we still macked and petted and had a good time before falling asleep - tonight's the night, obviously. But this takes TIME and AFFECTION and INTERACTION to sustain. A LOT of time. No time for friends. My friends, I stay in touch with through myspace (he does too). We see our each one of our closest friends about once every six months, I have a couple of friends I see somewhat more often - and the rest is family and the kids we're mentoring/fostering, that's it. > > Your bedtime rule idea speaks volumes, btw. > > I don't have a 'bedtime rule'. If you read back, I asked what people > thought of this suggestion. I've decided to join the "no time to read back" group. But I wanted to tell you - once again - that no matter how many times you try to rephrase it, the very fact that your mind came up with the numbers 11:30 (AT ALL) will always stick in my mind, with your situation. It's just very ruley sounding - whether you want to admit it or not. And whether or not you were "merely asking." It was a strange thing to ask about - is what I'm saying - for a grown-up in a grown-up relationship. Now, my DH VERY MUCH wants me to go to bed when he does - and he usually wants to go to bed earlier than me and it's always been an "issue" in our relationship. But what do I gain by staying up an extra half hour and then disturbing him when I come to bed (or vice versa?) Nothing. I'm merely doing more of the same crap I do all day long (working online, picking up, tossing laundry in piles, zoning out with TV, sitting on the 'puter, or reading some totally engrossing book or other). I wouldn't like it if he woke me up by coming to bed at some other time - and if the time difference in bedtime were more than 20-30 minutes on a consistent basis, I'd sleep in a separate room (this would NOT diminish our sex life - but my DH would very much miss having me there in bed with him, as he falls asleep and when he wakes up - it's important to him). The 20-30 minutes are NOT important to me - and we have a great new foam mattress that enables me to do my last set of P.T. things after I'm in bed without ever disturbing him. I also keep a mental list of things I need to think about - I'm a writer - so that I can entertain myself just fine while lying in bed an extra 30 minutes). Because I LOVE him and want to be WITH him - and want the intimate, affection, sexy relationship that comes from undressing together, going to bed together, tucking each other in, doing our own "prayer like assessment" of our day, making promises about the next day, billing and cooing, etc. Let me ask you - when your wife does come to bed on time, do you stroke her hair and tell her she's beautiful and initiate billing and cooing - without expecting sex? That she spend more time doing housework > during the day so that she has more time for me at night. I now see > that it is reasonable for me to ask her to spend more time with me, but > not to dictate when she goes to bed or when she sees her friends or does > housework. That's very true. My only point is that changing your own head (and being more reasonable, at this point) is a very LATE start in actually fixing this. She's already made her life the way it is - and you need to re-court her and re-establish a different kind of relationship. Those who have suggested the two of you get counseling are right-on, but - paradoxically, it may be worth it to her to spend an hour a week with yet another new interesting person (the therapist) with you in tow, rather than address the real issue (of spending quality time with you). Frankly, and I'm not trying to be mean, Sam, but we ALL spend time doing the things we *like* to do best - unless we are obligated to do the thing (like work). Just since I posted to you, you called your wife and tried to get a lunch date, when you know she has that time set aside for "friends" and doesn't like [your] "spontaneity." It would be fascinating to know how spontaneous she is among her friends (you probably lack a complete picture of the way her relationships work when you're not around - in fact, I'm sure you do). Given how you approach understanding language and asking questions here, I'm not sure you're quite up to the task of asking guided questions of her, so that she begins to reveal herself to you. She may not feel the need to talk to you about any of this - she has her convo partners in place, and they listen and respond in the way she likes. If you did the same thing, she'd be making lunch dates with you - right? I mean, she manages to make lunch dates with others - why not you? A. >>>>We have discussed it many times. She gets all defensive about it. "You > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > fits (and objects, actually) in our popular mind and our popular media > - it's *okay* for women to get pissy under similar circumstances). Could be because of how my mood changed throughout the day. I started angry and got better after calling my wife and asking her to go for lunch. On the phone, she apologized to me, told me she loved me and wished she wasn't with her friend as she was very happy I called her. > We are just > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > there's nothing like a strong male body pressed firmly into one's own > body to make a "mental" state suddenly pop up that wasn't there before. For my wife, it is alot about mental to get her in the mood, but was she gets started, it can be very physical as well. > It doesn't have to be on the road to the bedroom - it can be an > intense hug in the morning, a suggestion of eroticism for later on - it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "mentality" - because I'm telling you, you know so little about it, I > can't imagine that you can leap right in successfully. I think you would be surprised to know how aware I am of her mentality. >>Our kids are between grades 5 and 8. I would like her to do housework >>when they are in school and I am at work. But I realize that when she [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > What was it? If you can figure that out, you've got your foot in the > door. She rarely if ever does any of these things ... but you would have to know her to understand. >>She isn't partying ... she is shopping and exercing and going for coffee >>and helping friends with decorating, etc. I'm not sure what you are [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > - ah, wonderful. HELPING FRIENDS DECORATE? PARTY. To me. I'll bet > she gets her nails done too.) No to the nails .... I have given her a gift certificate for a pedicure. I also gave her a gift certificate for a facial about 6 months ago that she hasn't used yet. You almost sound angrier than me at my wife's schedule... > A party is any time you're having fun - especially with others. What > did you think I meant? You have a remarkable way of assuming a very [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > mean to you what it means to others on this thread). Now, you avoid > the central meaning of what I posted and tell me she's "not partying." Ok, your idea of a party is different than mine, but I get what you are saying. >>I have a few friends but not near as many as her or as much free time to >>spend time with them. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > time before falling asleep - tonight's the night, obviously. But this > takes TIME and AFFECTION and INTERACTION to sustain. A LOT of time. Sounds like you guys have a wonderful relationship. >>>Your bedtime rule idea speaks volumes, btw. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > rephrase it, the very fact that your mind came up with the numbers > 11:30 (AT ALL) will always stick in my mind, with your situation. It wasn't hard to come up with the time. It is the time I typically go to bed. It's > just very ruley sounding - whether you want to admit it or not. And > whether or not you were "merely asking." It was a strange thing to ask > about - is what I'm saying - for a grown-up in a grown-up relationship. > Now, my DH VERY MUCH wants me to go to bed when he does - and he > usually wants to go to bed earlier than me and it's always been an [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > her hair and tell her she's beautiful and initiate billing and cooing - > without expecting sex? Yes, I am a physical person, I like to hug and brush hair. When we have just had sex (say last three or four days), then I can do this alot without the expectation of sex. But my wife on the other had doesn't like too much of the touchy feely stuff. When it has been a few days or a week since we have had sex ... and she allows me to hug her or brush her hair, etc. then it is pretty difficult to not expect sex. > That she spend more time doing housework > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > lunch date, when you know she has that time set aside for "friends" and > doesn't like [your] "spontaneity." I was aware that she was in an exercise class in the morning, but I thought maybe she was done and alone when I called. It would be fascinating to know how > spontaneous she is among her friends (you probably lack a complete > picture of the way her relationships work when you're not around - in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > right? I mean, she manages to make lunch dates with others - why not > you? This is where you are wrong. This is where I know my wife much better than you are giving me credit for. My wife rarely if ever makes appointments with anyone. She has many friends and family members that get very annoyed at her because she never calls, takes forever to return calles, etc. She is a procrastinater, she is late for everything. My wife is busy with friends because she has three SCHEDULED events (Tuesday, Thursday and Friday) where she plays a sport with a group of other women. Then after, they go somewhere or while they are there they make an appointment to go somewhere the next day. My wife is more of a follower than a leader. If she didn't have the three setup events, she wouldn't call friends to go hang out. Does this give you any other ideas/thoughts? > A. >I have asked her to spend a couple of days per week at home doing >housework, so that she doesn't have to be up late at night. She doesn't >want to because she is a 'night owl'. I think it is also because she is >avoiding intimacy. Is she avoiding intimacy, or is she avoiding sex? Lots of women (and I'm one of them) just don't feel sexy towards someone unless there is intimacy between the two people. In other words, if she doesn't feel that the two of you are on the same page, that you're in sync emotionally and that you're connecting, then she probably feels pretty unsexy and unmotivated. Not saying that's what's happening here, but it's a suggestion. Lauri in WA > In other words, if she doesn't feel > that the two of you are on the same page, that you're in sync > emotionally and that you're connecting, then she probably feels pretty > unsexy and unmotivated. Interesting observation... and true. However, might this be injecting a theory that doesn't quite fit a couple that's basically happily married? I question because; if we're to apply this thought, in actuality, their marriage would be in much deeper trouble then what's been written.  SignatureSD:) >>I have asked her to spend a couple of days per week at home doing >>housework, so that she doesn't have to be up late at night. She doesn't [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Not saying that's what's happening here, but it's a suggestion. This is definitely part of the problem. To her, intimacy is talking about her day and what was funny or sad or whatever. To me, intimacy is a hug, a smile, a connection where you just know that you are in love. The problem is I don't listen as well as I should and my wife only hugs when we are either having sex or about to have sex. > Lauri in WA > >>I have asked her to spend a couple of days per week at home doing > >>housework, so that she doesn't have to be up late at night. She doesn't [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > This is definitely part of the problem. To her, intimacy is talking > about her day and what was funny or sad or whatever. Well then, you need to do that when you have moments together. > To me, intimacy is > a hug, a smile, a connection where you just know that you are in love. Well then, you need to do that too, when you have moments together. You just succinctly described what each party needs as a little fuel to get through the week. What would be so wrong with giving each other a little gift of what you need? > The problem is I don't listen as well as I should and my wife only hugs > when we are either having sex or about to have sex. What happens if you touch at other moments? What happens if you talk about just touching because you like the physical contact? What happens if you say "I could use a hug"? - Randy >>This is definitely part of the problem. To her, intimacy is talking >>about her day and what was funny or sad or whatever. > > Well then, you need to do that when you have moments > together. I try, but I admit I don't do this as much as possible. Partly because we are too busy and the best time to do this is between 11pm and 2am. Which is when I am sleeping. >>To me, intimacy is >>a hug, a smile, a connection where you just know that you are in love. > > Well then, you need to do that too, when you have moments > together. I try to do this all the time. She on the other hand isn't that type. > You just succinctly described what each party needs as a little > fuel to get through the week. What would be so wrong with > giving each other a little gift of what you need? Yes, I am trying to do what I can but I can't get her to do what she doesn't want to do. >>The problem is I don't listen as well as I should and my wife only hugs >>when we are either having sex or about to have sex. > > What happens if you touch at other moments? Depends, sometimes she pushes me away, sometimes not. It isn't good because if she pushes me away, I feel rejected (especially if she has made it clear a couple of nights in a row that she is avoiding me). If she doesn't then this is her way of saying that she is ready to be intimate and so I expect that later that evening. I like the second response much better!!!! But it is really like gambling as I am terrible at reading her. > What happens if you talk about just touching because you > like the physical contact? I can talk about it (and have), but she isn't into that very often. See Above > What happens if you say "I could use a hug"? I have done this. She will just ignore me. A little later she might allow me to hug her. She would never come and hug me. If she was in one of her moods, she would tell me I am needy and just want to get laid. > - Randy >>>This is definitely part of the problem. To her, intimacy is talking >>>about her day and what was funny or sad or whatever. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > are too busy and the best time to do this is between 11pm and 2am. Which > is when I am sleeping. So... why don't you do your sleeping at work so you have time to meet her needs? I know it is nonsense, but it illustrates a point. If you are not giving her her flavor of intimacy... If you are too busy for her version, then it stands to reason that she might be too busy for yours. The thing about talking is that it can be done while doingother things, like the chores together in the evening. Do it a bunch of times without the quid pro quo of I helped you with the chores, let's screw! >>>To me, intimacy is >>>a hug, a smile, a connection where you just know that you are in love. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >> - Randy >>I try, but I admit I don't do this as much as possible. Partly because we >>are too busy and the best time to do this is between 11pm and 2am. Which [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > chores together in the evening. Do it a bunch of times without the quid pro > quo of I helped you with the chores, let's screw! |
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