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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / February 2007Valentine's Day == Emotional Extortion?
Valentine's Day is my favorite holiday to rant at. Having suffered through far too many, I consider it worse than all of my Thanksgivings (U.S. holiday) and Christmas family get-togethers combined. The reason for this disamourous loathing is simple - I equate Valentine's Day, with all of its marketing hype, customs and wildly exaggerated expectations to be little more than emotional extortion. If I don't give the requisite cards, flowers, candy, fine dining and romantic utterance; I won't even *see* a woman for the next six months, let alone get to touch one! It is true that money can't buy you love, but apparently it can be used to make the installment payments. To me, this is simply appalling. I greatly prefer to celebrate my love in countless small ways, and on a much more frequent basis than once every February 14th. But miss just one such V.D., and it is as if nothing I ever did before ever mattered, or ever happened. As a partial protest to the commercialization of my heartspace, I shall (and already have) start looking for non-traditional Valentine's Day activities. Walks in the parks would be nice, but the weather isn't always conducive to such. Last year I gave a thornless rose bush to a women who already had enough pricks in her life. This year, who knows? As long as it isn't discardable, consumable or fabulously expensive. Cheers, and happy V.D. to all, Larry G.  SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! > If I don't give the > requisite cards, flowers, candy, fine dining and romantic > utterance; I won't even *see* a woman for the next six > months, let alone get to touch one! Larry, you seriously need to hang with a better class of woman. Thinking back, I'm not sure I've ever been taken out to dinner on Valentine's Day. I'm just not "fine dining" peeps. I did have a candlelit dinner on Valentine's Day, 1990, as an ice storm rolled through town and knocked out power for the next several days. No looters or shooters, though. I guess I kind of like Valentine's Day, perhaps in large part because I (and the men I've dated/married) do tend to be the "small acts of kindness" people. Once the bloom is off the rose, those small acts of kindness tend toward the "I love you so much that I scraped the ice off your windshield" and "I love you so much that I baked your favorite pie." Much as those are a critical part of a happy relationship, I do think it's nice to elevate things a notch, from quite small gestures to at least modest gestures, once a quarter. Hence Christmas, Valentine's Day, birthdays, and anniversary. Also, if you don't put any effort into Valentine's Day with your sweetie, she won't put any effort into Steak and a bl.wj.b Day for you. March 20, mark your calendars! >> If I don't give the >> requisite cards, flowers, candy, fine dining and romantic [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > sweetie, she won't put any effort into Steak and a bl.wj.b Day for you. > March 20, mark your calendars! LOL! I've never heard of this other holiday. However, our local public radio station often honors Anti-Valentine Day, starting with the theme song, "Love Stinks". I do agree that we should occasionally elevate our level of attention and effort in showing love, however I am very fond of railing against the 'calendar-n-coupons' pseudo-customs implied by merchants, marketers and media. Thanks again for your words of wisdom. BTW, I do hang out with a very fine class of women. However, at past 40, they too have their own issues and baggage, as do we (I) all. Cheers, Larry G. SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! Larry G. said > Valentine's Day is my favorite holiday to rant at. > Having suffered through far too many, I consider it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > utterance; I won't even *see* a woman for the next six > months, let alone get to touch one! You certainly won't get to touch one with an attitude like that. On the flip side, I am really looking forward to enjoying this Valentine's Day (hereby declared to be Saturday) - it is a great backdrop for a romantic weekend. This will be the first time in many years that I have actually looked forward to celebrating this particular occasion. Casey > On the flip side, I am really looking forward to enjoying > this Valentine's Day (hereby declared to be Saturday) - > it is a great backdrop for a romantic weekend. > This will be the first time in many years that I have actually > looked forward to celebrating this particular occasion. Bah, Humbug! For us old married folk, its just one more chance for Hallmark and the florist people to stick their hands in our wallets. But if it makes our SO's happy, its not such a big deal to "put out" a little time and money. Besides, I need all the points I can get! >> On the flip side, I am really looking forward to enjoying >> this Valentine's Day (hereby declared to be Saturday) - [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > chance for Hallmark and the florist people to stick their > hands in our wallets. Did anybody ever tell you that you really do have a jaundiced view of life? Not everything in life is so negative, ya know. > Valentine's Day is my favorite holiday to rant at. > Having suffered through far too many, I consider it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > utterance; I won't even *see* a woman for the next six > months, let alone get to touch one! You need to find different women. But I am curious. Why woudl you want to hang out with prostitutes that aren't even honest enough to call a spade a spade. Mr Hand sounds better than *taht*. > It is true that money can't buy you love, but apparently > it can be used to make the installment payments. To me, > this is simply appalling. Yeah me too. I *did* get a plastic fish and a card for valentines day. Set my heart on fire! > I greatly prefer to celebrate my love in countless small > ways, and on a much more frequent basis than once every [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > pricks in her life. This year, who knows? As long as it isn't > discardable, consumable or fabulously expensive. Like my fish! Although consumable is not bad. DH made me a lovely dinner one year. Never ON Valentine's day. He hates Valentines Day. I kind of like it so I told him I would happily observe steak and BJ day. But that did not fly. Neither Valentine's Day nor steak and BJ day are all that different than every day. And he prefers seared (um uncooked) sushi grade tuna to steak anyway. >> Valentine's Day is my favorite holiday to rant at. >> Having suffered through far too many, I consider it [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > than every day. And he prefers seared (um uncooked) sushi grade tuna to > steak anyway. Most women I've talked with on the subject, find ways to justify and embrace Valentine's Day. I think it is a more rewarding experience for them/you. For most of us guys, it is just the opposite, a very thinly veiled threat, and an overt grab at our sacred wallets! Cheers, Larry G. SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! >>> Valentine's Day is my favorite holiday to rant at. >>> Having suffered through far too many, I consider it [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > guys, it is just the opposite, a very thinly veiled threat, > and an overt grab at our sacred wallets! If you wallet is sacred, to you or to anyone else, then you have a problem. > Cheers, > Larry G. > Most women I've talked with on the subject, find ways to > justify and embrace Valentine's Day. I think it is a > more rewarding experience for them/you. For most of us > guys, it is just the opposite, a very thinly veiled threat, > and an overt grab at our sacred wallets! Well, I asked my husband last night what he thought about Valentine's Day, and he said he was fine with it so long as no one expected him to buy her a new car. And I *know* he gets all giddy thinking about ways to surprise me for the quarterly gift-giving occasions like Valentine's Day. Who am I to take that small pleasure away from him? And if you're talking to married folks, what's this "my sacred wallet" stuff? Ever heard of marital property? The money that is spent at Valentine's Day is *their* money, not *his* money. Besides, if you're going to look at it that way, then women will have to start viewing Thanksgiving as an overt grab at THEIR sacred refrigerators. "I put dinner on the table 365 days a year, but that's not enough for you, IT IS? Now you want MORE!!!" (Seriously, are there any women out there who consider Thanksgiving their favorite holiday?) >> Most women I've talked with on the subject, find ways to >> justify and embrace Valentine's Day. I think it is a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > surprise me for the quarterly gift-giving occasions like Valentine's > Day. Who am I to take that small pleasure away from him? You had the good sense, or fortune, to marry well. I rejoice in your happy relationship. However, since you are an intelligent and educated person, you are less prone to swallow the glib marketing BS which so easily sways us lesser mortals. Thus, trying to extrapolate your personal situation to the lives of the majority of your fellow citizens is likely to produce unreliable results. > And if you're talking to married folks, what's this "my sacred wallet" > stuff? Ever heard of marital property? The money that is spent at > Valentine's Day is *their* money, not *his* money. Being a Born Again Bachelor (politically correct euphamism for divorced middle aged coot) I do not share a joint checking account with anyone. As such, I keenly feel the social pressure to go through the motions of the Valentine's Day Charade - buy jewelry, flowers, cards and candy, for whomever I would at least possibly maybe consider a potential love interest. That is a threat to my limited finances for something that I'm not likely to receive any benefit from. Thus, I resent this convention of pretending something I don't feel, and cannot presently afford. The "sacred wallet" concept is a parody of those who worship the Almighty Dollar (or is it Euro?). > Besides, if you're going to look at it that way, then women will have to > start viewing Thanksgiving as an overt grab at THEIR sacred [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (Seriously, are there any women out there who consider Thanksgiving > their favorite holiday?) My (ex) wife did . . . as long as she didn't have to do too much cooking. (I did most of the cooking at home.) Cheers, Larry G. SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! >>> Most women I've talked with on the subject, find ways to >>> justify and embrace Valentine's Day. I think it is a [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > any benefit from. Thus, I resent this convention of pretending > something I don't feel, and cannot presently afford. No offense Larry. Grow a sac and don't do it. > The "sacred wallet" concept is a parody of those who worship the > Almighty Dollar (or is it Euro?). [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Cheers, > Larry G. > >> Most women I've talked with on the subject, find ways to > >> justify and embrace Valentine's Day. I think it is a [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > any benefit from. Thus, I resent this convention of pretending > something I don't feel, and cannot presently afford. Lith is right; you're picking the wrong women. I have a brain and never cared much about getting gifts. I was happy to get a card. Quit putting women in a box and acting like a victim. When you meet women with good hearts, decent sized brains and compassion; you'll realize that not all of us give a sh.t about diamonds and expensive dinners. One tulip with baby's breathe; which will cost you approximately 2 dollars, is fine enough for me. Jewelry??????????? Our wedding bands were bought at a discount store that no longer exists for about 25 dollars each. No engagement ring for me. I resent it when you put all or even most women in the box that you're putting us in. I suggest that you look around at the types of women you're choosing. >> You had the good sense, or fortune, to marry well. I rejoice >> in your happy relationship. However, since you are an intelligent >> and educated person, you are less prone to swallow the glib >> marketing BS which so easily sways us lesser mortals. Thus, trying >> to extrapolate your personal situation to the lives of the majority >> of your fellow citizens is likely to produce unreliable results. >> Being a Born Again Bachelor (politically correct euphamism for >> divorced middle aged coot) I do not share a joint checking account [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > putting us in. I suggest that you look around at the types of women > you're choosing. Perhaps you would be kind enough to look around to see what kind of women are *available* to me. I gave up chasing the good ones who were already married, a long time ago. In general, there are reasons why single people are single, myself included. Usually, they cannot form satisfactory relationships, or they cannot maintain them once they do. The women I villify as being shallow, materialistic and just a bit light headed, are by no means representative of the good women who marry well and keep their relationships healthy. People who are chronically single seem to have the most unrealistic expectations of love, marriage and relationships. My belief is that they did not have good relationship role models while they were growing up, and thus had to rely on fairy tales, television, movies, media marketing, and watching their inexperienced peers make much ado about nothing. From your description, you sound like the sort of woman I would like to have found. Someone else got to you first. That is their good fortune. But rest assured, that I am not out to slander all women for the folly of those who are left for single men to associate with. Cheers, Larry G. SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! > >> You had the good sense, or fortune, to marry well. I rejoice > >> in your happy relationship. However, since you are an intelligent [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > women are *available* to me. I gave up chasing the good ones who > were already married, a long time ago. I have some comments on this but I'll save 'em for another time. > In general, there are reasons why single people are single, myself > included. Usually, they cannot form satisfactory relationships, or > they cannot maintain them once they do. The women I villify as being > shallow, materialistic and just a bit light headed, are by no means > representative of the good women who marry well and keep their > relationships healthy. Hopefully, you'd admit that villifying romantic women online is actually on par with being a silly romantic woman? You shouldn't write off those silly women so quickly. Women sometimes put on a protective coating of ditziness to keep a man at arm's length. > People who are chronically single seem to have the most unrealistic > expectations of love, marriage and relationships. I take it that you're including yourself in this group. My own DH was the same way - but he finally found me! ; - ) I'm a good example, though, of a married woman who is not your type - and that makes me think there might be some single ones who are. In fact, I know there are some good women out there. My belief is that > they did not have good relationship role models while they were > growing up, and thus had to rely on fairy tales, television, movies, > media marketing, and watching their inexperienced peers make much > ado about nothing. People can and do grow past this. It often takes a relationship to make that happen though. > From your description, you sound like the sort of woman I would > like to have found. Someone else got to you first. That is their > good fortune. But rest assured, that I am not out to slander all > women for the folly of those who are left for single men to > associate with. You really need to revision how you're seeing these materialistic single women. There *are* other women in the single world. People have posted lots of suggestions in the past about where to meet good people (the Zorra friendship thread was one). They don't just fall out of the sky - and people rely on the meeting-context to drop their shields and be a bit more open. You seem like the SCA or RF type, to me, but what do I know. A. A. > Cheers, > Larry G. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----http://www.newsfeeds.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- >> Perhaps you would be kind enough to look around to see what kind of >> women are *available* to me. I gave up chasing the good ones who >> were already married, a long time ago. > > I have some comments on this but I'll save 'em for another time. Why A., I never knew self-restraint was one of your many virtues! >> In general, there are reasons why single people are single, myself >> included. Usually, they cannot form satisfactory relationships, or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > write off those silly women so quickly. Women sometimes put on a > protective coating of ditziness to keep a man at arm's length. I guess if women can fake orgasms, they can pull of a charade of being "terminally blonde", as well, no matter what their real hair color. >> People who are chronically single seem to have the most unrealistic >> expectations of love, marriage and relationships. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and that makes me think there might be some single ones who are. In > fact, I know there are some good women out there. How do you know what my type is, or that you aren't? I don't recall posting any personals or lists of requirements. > My belief is that >> they did not have good relationship role models while they were [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > People can and do grow past this. It often takes a relationship to > make that happen though. Well, duh! By the time I "grew" past it, I was an old man! >> From your description, you sound like the sort of woman I would >> like to have found. Someone else got to you first. That is their [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You really need to revision how you're seeing these materialistic > single women. There *are* other women in the single world. What kind of delusion would you suggest? The fact that there are other single women does not imply that we would be compatible. At at this time in my life, I do not have the time or resources to dedicate to a proper relationship. > People > have posted lots of suggestions in the past about where to meet good > people (the Zorra friendship thread was one). They don't just fall > out of the sky - and people rely on the meeting-context to drop their > shields and be a bit more open. You seem like the SCA or RF type, to > me, but what do I know. I go to church to find community, spiritual growth, and possibly meet available women of sufficiently high calibre and background. In the past ten years or so, I've found a number of interesting prospects, but only dated one for more than a year. SCA? RF? Cheers, Larry G. > A. SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! ><atalanta.brilliante@gmail.com> wrote: > >> You seem like the SCA or RF type, to me, but what do I know. > >SCA? RF? http://www.sca.org http://www.renaissancefestival.com/ Signature"Other than telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, now, die, I think the Republicans have done a fine job of getting government out of our personal lives." -- Craig Carter, in his Sunday Oregonian column "Short and Sweet" >> Most women I've talked with on the subject, find ways to >> justify and embrace Valentine's Day. I think it is a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > me for the quarterly gift-giving occasions like Valentine's Day. Who am I > to take that small pleasure away from him? The idea of wanting to really please your partner is so sweet. I love it. I try to get DH nice presents, but I don't have the thing for lighting up his face they way he does mine. Through truth be told I don't really like roses. I prefer a wider vaiety of flowers. He doesn't do these things on prescribed days, though. I had a really godawful week lately (can't go into details to protect the guilty). He came home with a dozen roses. I was NOT going to say sweethear I prefer daisies. I loved my roses. > And if you're talking to married folks, what's this "my sacred wallet" > stuff? Ever heard of marital property? The money that is spent at [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > (Seriously, are there any women out there who consider Thanksgiving their > favorite holiday?) It is oner of my all time favorites, yes. I like Christmas for the joy it brings my children. But I LOVE Thanksgiving. But in my family, the whole homongous family contributes to the dinner. No one person coooks it all. The person whose house it is brings the bird. Someone else brings a pot of pealed and cubed potatoes to put on the stove... <snipped> > And if you're talking to married folks, what's this "my sacred wallet" > stuff? Ever heard of marital property? The money that is spent at > Valentine's Day is *their* money, not *his* money. "What's mine is mine, and what's his is mine." <smirk> Seriously, for Chewy and me, it's all community property. Now that I'm working and *he* is he SAH spouse (when he's not hanging out with me at the restaurant), I'd *love* it if he handled all he bills. <g> > Besides, if you're going to look at it that way, then women will have to > start viewing Thanksgiving as an overt grab at THEIR sacred [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (Seriously, are there any women out there who consider Thanksgiving > their favorite holiday?) <raises hand> I love the holidays. I love cooking for people. Except for whining, complaining, bah-humbug people for whom nothing is ever good enough. They can steer clear of me. Kitten > (Seriously, are there any women out there who consider Thanksgiving their > favorite holiday?) Me me me me me!!!!! >> (Seriously, are there any women out there who consider Thanksgiving >> their favorite holiday?) My favorite? No. Do I enjoy it? Somewhat.. there are enjoyable aspects of it, sure. >>> (Seriously, are there any women out there who consider Thanksgiving >>> their favorite holiday?) > > My favorite? No. Do I enjoy it? Somewhat.. there are enjoyable aspects > of it, sure. The idea of work, for me, is not always a drudge. Some of my favorite things to do are "work." I actually love preparing nice meals for friends and family. (I don't mind eating them myself either!) I enjoy the actual time I spend with housekeeping sometimes when I have rockin' music playing and I can bop around, knowing that my house is going to be sparkly. I like curriculum planning for my little shoebox preschool. If work is always a chore and a drudge then life is going to totally suck because there is just so much of it. I enjoy any work that involves time with DH. We have had some of our best timescleaning the kitchen, working in the yard... On a side note. Can anyone tell me what to do? I am having a new experience here. It is 3:30 in the am. I cannot sleep. Unheard of! I have worries! Don't we all. But I have never had them keep my up at night. What do you do when it is 3:30 and you can't get back to sleep because your brain won't shut up? Sorry to go off topic. > On a side note. Can anyone tell me what to do? I am having a new > experience here. It is 3:30 in the am. I cannot sleep. Unheard of! I > have worries! Don't we all. But I have never had them keep my up at > night. What do you do when it is 3:30 and you can't get back to sleep > because your brain won't shut up? Sorry to go off topic. Wish I could tell you what to do there. I've suffered from insomnia off and on for years now. Recently, benadryl has helped while prescription meds made me sleepy both that night and the following day as well, which is not good. >> On a side note. Can anyone tell me what to do? I am having a new >> experience here. It is 3:30 in the am. I cannot sleep. Unheard of! I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > meds made me sleepy both that night and the following day as well, which is > not good. Sleeping pills, that's what you do. Works for me. Just don't do it too often. >> Wish I could tell you what to do there. I've suffered from insomnia >> off and on for years now. Recently, benadryl has helped while [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Sleeping pills, that's what you do. Works for me. Just don't > do it too often. Sleeping pills are not something I can take on a work night.. Even 1/3 of an ambien pill, and I'll be falling asleep at my desk and it's simply not safe for me to drive. I've fallen asleep at my desk twice, both times around 4pm, both times on a night when I took a sleeping pill and it was my own snoring that woke me up. _NOT_ good. I would suggest to anyone who has to get up in the AM and work, to try out any type of sleep aid on a night when you are not obligated to be somewhere, so you know how you'll be affected, first. One benadryl seems to work 'okay'... not the greatest, but better than nothing. > Sleeping pills are not something I can take on a work night.. Even 1/3 of > an ambien pill, and I'll be falling asleep at my desk and it's simply not > safe for me to drive. <..> > One benadryl seems to work 'okay'... not the greatest, but better than > nothing. Have you tried melatonin? Doesn't work for a lot of people, but for those of us it works for, it works very nicely... and since it's a "nutritional supplement" it's very inexpensive to try, compared to prescription meds. There are also some prescription alternatives to the currently-in-fashion hypnotics like Ambien (Sonata, Lunesta and generic Zopiclone being the others), which might be worth asking your doctor about. >> Sleeping pills are not something I can take on a work night.. Even 1/3 of >> an ambien pill, and I'll be falling asleep at my desk and it's simply not [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > us it works for, it works very nicely... and since it's a "nutritional > supplement" it's very inexpensive to try, compared to prescription meds. Melatonin works very nicely for me most of the time. > Have you tried melatonin? Doesn't work for a lot of people, but for > those of us it works for, it works very nicely... and since it's a > "nutritional supplement" it's very inexpensive to try, compared to > prescription meds. Yeah, it's something I've tried.. didn't help though, unfortunately. > There are also some prescription alternatives to the > currently-in-fashion hypnotics like Ambien (Sonata, Lunesta and > generic Zopiclone being the others), which might be worth asking your > doctor about. My HMO is being a real PITA in that regard.. I have heard so many people mention how well Lunesta works, but they won't allow me to get it, since it's not a generic. I'm not sure I've heard about Zopiclone.. do you know what it is a generic for? SignatureCal~ calliope 123 at gmail dot com > > Have you tried melatonin? Doesn't work for a lot of people, but for > > those of us it works for, it works very nicely... and since it's a [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > calliope 123 at gmail dot com That's a real PITA. Lunesta not only works well, but after awhile, seems to have few side effects (except rebound insomnia, which is hard to tell apart from the regular kind). It doesn't leave a person feeling drugged out the next day. We have this plan at work where we can pay our non-covered medications with pre-tax dollars, which helps with the non-generics. It's not scheduled to become generic this year, either, and not for awhile (Lunesta isn't, I don't think). A. > > There are also some prescription alternatives to the > > currently-in-fashion hypnotics like Ambien (Sonata, Lunesta and generic [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it's not a generic. I'm not sure I've heard about Zopiclone.. do you know > what it is a generic for? Imovane is the brand name where it's available, IIRC. I'm not sure it's available here in the USA as I believe they went straight to the newer patent on Lunesta (eszopiclone, which is one isomer). Pretty typical drug company strategy. Sadly, Lunesta is pretty darn expensive even at costco ($115-120 for 30 pills) but for items your HMO does not cover you should have the option of having them writing you a 'scrip that you can take to a retail pharmacy. A couple of other options to look at: Trazodone is a cheap-as-dirt generic (around $10 for 100) antidepressant and works wonderfully as a sleep med for some people; it's non-addictive, although the sedative property wears off if you use it regularly. While diphenhydramine (benadryl, as well as several OTC brands of "sleep aid") is the most common antihistamine used for sleep trouble, most of the older antihistamines are sedating and while they're usually supposed to be "not as good," in practice which works best (or if any of them do any good) will vary from person to person. Chlorpheniramine seems to be the most readily available of them. Unless you've got a history of addiction or your doctor is a pain in the a.s, there are also good old fashioned benzodiazepines, particularly temazepam (restoril). They're addictive, and not recommended for long term use, but then again it's looking increasingly like the newer hypnotics are actually addictive under long-term use. >> My favorite? No. Do I enjoy it? Somewhat.. there are enjoyable >> aspects of it, sure. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that involves time with DH. We have had some of our best timescleaning > the kitchen, working in the yard... The few times we convinced family to come to our home for Thanksgiving, were much more enjoyable to me than schleping here and there.. but my mom's home is more central to the rest of the family, so that is where we've gone. Time with the family is nice, though. >>>> (Seriously, are there any women out there who consider >>>> Thanksgiving [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > favorite things to do are "work." I actually love preparing nice > meals for friends and family. I think people are sort of obscuring Dr. Lith's point. It does seem like every year some vocal minority of men complains about Valentine's Day -- how fake it is, how expensive, and how unfair that they should be "required" to some extravagant show of their love on this one day. This completely ignores the facts that 1) it's *nice* to make a little extra effort to show love once in a while, and V-Day is as good as any -- it gives a nudge to those who might get into a rut and forget, 2) You can do that with little or no expense involved, 3) You can do it without one red cent of your money going to Hallmark, or whoever else you perceive to be the evil perpetrator of the holiday, and 4) women also often go the extra mile (and extra expense) to do something loving for Valentine's. So if you apply the same types of stereotypical trimming to Thanksgiving, what you end up with is women doing all the work while men watch football. And sure you like cooking, but do you like being forced to cook this huge meal, on this particular day, and with a somewhat prescribed menu no less? Why can't you just cook a special meal whenever you want all through the year instead of *having* to do it on this one day? Etc. In other words, I think her symmetry is pretty good, and the fact that many women do actually like the holiday, and don't mind the cooking, and that many men do in fact help out quite a bit instead of sitting on their duffs all day only serves to underscore that the same types of things are true for V day too. Zorra [snip] >In other words, I think her symmetry is pretty good, and the fact that >many women do actually like the holiday, and don't mind the cooking, >and that many men do in fact help out quite a bit instead of sitting >on their duffs all day only serves to underscore that the same types >of things are true for V day too. Cooking is such a new thing for me -- I really only started to cook seriously in the last couple of years. So I love an excuse to pull out all the stops. Last Thanksgiving was my most successful yet! As to V-Day, while I'm not much into the flowers and cards thing, an idle question the other day ("I wonder if there's a program that lets me put pictures and words together with a song of my own choice?") led me to a neat little program. I've taken pictures of our time together over the past 10 months, added some cute captions, picked out a jaunty little love song from Stacey Earle, and put together a neat CD slideshow. (The program has a 30 day trial period but I like it enough to fork over the $39 to buy it; it's really simple to use.) In case anyone is interested: http://www.anixsoft.com/myslideshow.html Barb > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > In case anyone is interested: > http://www.anixsoft.com/myslideshow.html Huh. I thought i was going to get to see pictures of you and your sweetie, not get a software offer! (Anyway, I have a mac, so that sort of capability came with the machine.) > "Stephanie" <m...@iwishicoud.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Thanksgiving, what you end up with is women doing all the work while > men watch football. Sure, but that doesn't make it similar to the stereotypical male complaints about V.D. The idea behind those complaints is that they (the men) don't like or care about any of the VD stuff, but their women require them to do it. I haven't heard similar stereotypical feelings about Thanksgiving. It's not the men who demand fancy Thanksgiving celebrations, is it? They'd probably be just as happy ordering pizza and vegetating in front of TV. Now, if you want to talk about steak and BJ day, we'll have a parallel! > And sure you like cooking, but do you like being > forced to cook this huge meal, on this particular day, and with a > somewhat prescribed menu no less? But who forces women to do that? Certainly not the men in my family... > Why can't you just cook a special > meal whenever you want all through the year instead of *having* to do > it on this one day? Etc. And that would suit most men just fine - I know, I am stereotyping, but that's the idea, isn't it?! > In other words, I think her symmetry is pretty good, > and the fact that many women do actually like the holiday, and don't mind the cooking, > and that many men do in fact help out quite a bit instead of sitting > on their duffs all day only serves to underscore that the same types > of things are true for V day too. Add to your list the stereotypical fact that men are not the ones who require fancy thanksgiveing feasts, and the symmatry dissappears. :-) >> In other words, I think her symmetry is pretty good, >> and the fact that many women do actually like the holiday, and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > require fancy thanksgiveing feasts, and the symmatry dissappears. > :-) I think it's rather symmetrical in that there is one holiday where the men are stereotypically required to put forth most or all of the effort and there is another where the women are. If we trimmed it down to only the people with stereotypical expectations, I have no idea how upset the men would be if the women decided not to cook. Anyway, it's no skin off my nose if you don't find any symmetry. The holidays are totally different, so it couldn't be perfect anyway. Zorra >I think it's rather symmetrical in that there is one holiday where the >men are stereotypically required to put forth most or all of the >effort and there is another where the women are. I'm confused about this sentiment, so I'm just tacking my comment here in this convenient place. I have never felt that it's the men who are required to put forth most or all of the effort on Valentine's Day. I must be in the minority because I've seen several people mention that here, but when I was married (eons ago!), my then-husband and I both got each other a little something on Valentine's Day. It was usually limited to a box of candy and a mushy card. Never would I have dreamed of sitting back on my pile of cusions, waiting for him to come in with a big fancy gift for me and it's curious to me that there are apparently so many women who give NOTHING but expect a gift. I still give my boys Valentine's gifts of candy and a mom-appropriate mushy card. They don't usually get me anything but it wouldn't occur to me to be upset about it--I'm not their sweetheart, after all! HOWEVER--if one of them were to toss a box of chocolates my way tomorrow, I wouldn't object. :) Lauri in WA > I'm confused about this sentiment, so I'm just tacking my comment here > in this convenient place. I have never felt that it's the men who are [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > in with a big fancy gift for me and it's curious to me that there are > apparently so many women who give NOTHING but expect a gift. My sense of the stereotypical complaint is not that women are the only recipient, but that Valentine's Day, and what's expected of it, is more about the things that women like. I don't necessarily agree with this, but that's my feeling about why some men don't like it. >> I'm confused about this sentiment, so I'm just tacking my comment here >> in this convenient place. I have never felt that it's the men who are [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > recipient, but that Valentine's Day, and what's expected of it, is more > about the things that women like. Obviously!! :-) >> I'm confused about this sentiment, so I'm just tacking my comment here >> in this convenient place. I have never felt that it's the men who are >> required to put forth most or all of the effort on Valentine's Day. >My sense of the stereotypical complaint is not that women are the only >recipient, but that Valentine's Day, and what's expected of it, is more >about the things that women like. I don't necessarily agree with this, >but that's my feeling about why some men don't like it. Yeah, I suppose. I mean, the advertising does slant that way but I don't know very many people who get the big stuff for Valentine's Day; mostly it's cards and/or candy among the people that I know. I guess I see it as a very minor "holiday" (in quotes because I'm not sure it even qualifies as a holiday!). Regarding Thanksgiving: Last year was really lame because my sister who usually hosts it had moved away. I went to a cheap, quickie buffet with my parents....it was awful. This year, my sister and I decided at the last moment to host it at my house. I wouldn't have done it on my own, but with her to help me it went off without a hitch and it was FUN! If she'll commit to helping me, I'll offer to do it again next year! Lauri in WA > >I think it's rather symmetrical in that there is one holiday where the > >men are stereotypically required to put forth most or all of the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > in with a big fancy gift for me and it's curious to me that there are > apparently so many women who give NOTHING but expect a gift. Mostly I agree with you. However, I do confess feeling obligated by tradition to give flowers, and yes those flowers should at least include red roses. My wife would never insist on that, but I'd feel empty-handed if I didn't do something. I don't like to be *too* traditional, so it's hardly ever been the "dozen red long stems" thing. Sometimes when times were tight it was a single sweetheart rose. But other than that I agree, it's a mutual exchange of cards and small gifts. The point is to commemorate the relationship and take a minute to say, "yes, I'm glad I'm here and I want to celebrate that." No need to spend hundreds of dollars on jewelry. > I still give my boys Valentine's gifts of candy and a mom-appropriate > mushy card. They don't usually get me anything but it wouldn't occur > to me to be upset about it--I'm not their sweetheart, after all! > HOWEVER--if one of them were to toss a box of chocolates my way > tomorrow, I wouldn't object. :) Tradition again -- I wasn't going to buy chocolate. We're both trying to lose weight and I was going to be good for us. But ultimately I just couldn't leave the drugstore without going back and getting a sampler. - Randy >>>>> (Seriously, are there any women out there who consider >>>>> Thanksgiving [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I think people are sort of obscuring Dr. Lith's point. Perhaps, but I don't think it is intentional.. just another part of thread drift, is all, IMO. [snip] >On a side note. Can anyone tell me what to do? I am having a new experience >here. It is 3:30 in the am. I cannot sleep. Unheard of! I have worries! >Don't we all. But I have never had them keep my up at night. What do you do >when it is 3:30 and you can't get back to sleep because your brain won't >shut up? Sorry to go off topic. My favorite tool is hot chocolate -- the good kind you make with milk (I keep Giradelli hot choccie mix on hand). A cup of hot cocoa; a lie-down on the couch with the TV turned to something mindless; and I'm often back to dreamland before too long. Barb > >>> (Seriously, are there any women out there who consider Thanksgiving > >>> their favorite holiday?) [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > when it is 3:30 and you can't get back to sleep because your brain won't > shut up? Sorry to go off topic. I get up and read or work for an hour. Sometimes I have a cup of tea (but that's just me - caffeine, at least in tea doses doesn't seem to affect me). An hour is usually enough for me to be ready to go to sleep after. It isn't ideal, because I've then missed that sleep, but it breaks the tossing, brain-racing-with-worries, unable to sleep pattern for me. >On a side note. Can anyone tell me what to do? I am having a new experience >here. It is 3:30 in the am. I cannot sleep. Unheard of! I have worries! >Don't we all. But I have never had them keep my up at night. What do you do >when it is 3:30 and you can't get back to sleep because your brain won't >shut up? Sorry to go off topic. I'm having the same problem, Stephanie. Saturday night, I didn't sleep until after 3 am . Sunday night was around 1 am. Last night was probably 2-ish. Now I'm going to be an hour late to work because I needed to sleep longer this morning. My insomnia is for the same reason; my mind just races and flits from one subject to another until I can hardly stand it. Lauri in WA > On a side note. Can anyone tell me what to do? I am having a new experience > here. It is 3:30 in the am. I cannot sleep. Unheard of! I have worries! > Don't we all. But I have never had them keep my up at night. What do you do > when it is 3:30 and you can't get back to sleep because your brain won't > shut up? Sorry to go off topic. Here's what works for me (more or less in order): (1) Counting backward from 100 (for mild cases) (2) working crossword puzzles (3) melatonin > >>> (Seriously, are there any women out there who consider Thanksgiving > >>> their favorite holiday?) [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > when it is 3:30 and you can't get back to sleep because your brain won't > shut up? Sorry to go off topic. Lunesta. > >> (Seriously, are there any women out there who consider Thanksgiving > >> their favorite holiday?) > > My favorite? No. Do I enjoy it? Somewhat.. there are enjoyable aspects > of it, sure. We like to watch the dog show. > > Most women I've talked with on the subject, find ways to > > justify and embrace Valentine's Day. I think it is a [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > (Seriously, are there any women out there who consider Thanksgiving > their favorite holiday?) I like Thanksgiving because it has nothing to do with giving presants. It's about having a good meal with family and folks who don't have families. Yes, I like it far better than Christmas, Hannukah, Valentine's day, etc. Especially the last two years, since my son has done the cooking. This year I fell asleep while everyone cleaned up too. I"m liking Thanksgiving more and more. >> > Most women I've talked with on the subject, find ways to >> > justify and embrace Valentine's Day. I think it is a [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >my son has done the cooking. This year I fell asleep while everyone >cleaned up too. I"m liking Thanksgiving more and more. I'm totally with you on this. I like to cook, and there aren't any other obligations, and there aren't any expectations, and you don't have to worry about whether people will be disappointed or you'll be disappointed or any of the other things that go with the gift-giving holidays. I don't have a lot of family around any more, so it's not what it was when I was a kid, but it's one of the only holidays that I have pretty much only fond memories of. > I'm totally with you on this. I like to cook, and there aren't any > other obligations, and there aren't any expectations, and you don't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I > have pretty much only fond memories of. I don't particularly like Thanksgiving, because I don't like the traditional foods, and yes there is pressure from Husband and other family not to have, oh, say, a nice lasagna instead. However, the cooking and cleaning are completely shared by both DH and me, and there is generally help and/or a contribution from any guests. So I don't have anything against it really either. Zorra > > I'm totally with you on this. I like to cook, and there aren't any > > other obligations, and there aren't any expectations, and you don't [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > traditional foods, and yes there is pressure from Husband and other > family not to have, oh, say, a nice lasagna instead. Given that I don't eat meat, mashed potatoes, any kind of pie, whipped cream....and the list goes on; I don't like the traditional foods either. But there's something that's mellow and low keyed about the day and NO PRESANT buying. I like appetizers though and that is mostly my meal of the day. All day :-) >> I'm totally with you on this. I like to cook, and there aren't any >> other obligations, and there aren't any expectations, and you don't [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >traditional foods, and yes there is pressure from Husband and other >family not to have, oh, say, a nice lasagna instead. I guess I'd probably have the turkey AND the nice lasagna. (Which sounds terrific to me at the moment...) > >> > Most women I've talked with on the subject, find ways to > >> > justify and embrace Valentine's Day. I think it is a [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > what it was when I was a kid, but it's one of the only holidays that I > have pretty much only fond memories of Seems like it's generally not the amount of work that makes us like or dislike something, but whether we want to do it or it's demanded of us. I love thanksgiving because it's a big family day and I love being with family. Of course it doesn't hurt that it's not *my* day to cook! As for VD, I can see that I wouldn't like it if the romantic gestures that were meaningful to my husband weren't fun for me. That is one area that I have to like the "work" in order to enjoy the occasion. For me acting "romantic" when I don't feel like it (or the way that I don't relate) is harder than cooking when I don't feel like it. It is one area that sharing the feeling is essential for my enjoyment. >> >> > Most women I've talked with on the subject, find ways to >> >> > justify and embrace Valentine's Day. I think it is a [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >don't relate) is harder than cooking when I don't feel like it. It is >one area that sharing the feeling is essential for my enjoyment. The thing for me about all these "expected gift/expected behavior" holidays is that my ex was just such a... I don't know; I'm not sure even now what to say he was about them. He just never did ANYTHING, nothing at all, except for Christmas when he'd buy something unsuitable at the last minute. He'd never even wish me a happy birthday. None of it was about gifts of value in my mind, or romance, or whatever... it was just having him behave as if I mattered in some way. And every year it would be the same thing; I'd dread the holiday because I'd know what it would bring, and every year, I'd get more bitter and hurt. Then our son was born, and when he got to be old enough to understand birthdays and things like that, my ex suddenly started doing something for these events... not, I think, for me, but because our son expected him to. By that time, it just reinforced that "you don't matter" message. So I still kind of like holidays where I just have to cook or hide eggs or something. [..] >>As for VD, I can see that I wouldn't like it if the romantic gestures >>that were meaningful to my husband weren't fun for me. That is one [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > because our son expected him to. By that time, it just reinforced > that "you don't matter" message. That's terrible. > So I still kind of like holidays where I just have to cook or hide > eggs or something. Yes, I understand. I generally have less of an emotional reaction to holidays than most people that I know. There is no holiday that I *dislike*, for example, but I don't necessarily celebrate all either. I particularly like the ones that involve family gatherings. Other than that, we don't usually do the standard stuff on designated days, and I am not into gifts -- though good chocolate is always delightful! > The thing for me about all these "expected gift/expected behavior" > holidays is that my ex was just such a... I don't know; I'm not sure [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > because our son expected him to. By that time, it just reinforced > that "you don't matter" message. :-( DH does acknowledge these occasions, though it's in a very rote way. Back when there were still good feelings, I was grateful for these days, because without them he never would have done anything romantic or appreciative at all. That's how I feel about it -- if you really make your spouse feel appreciated all year long, there probably isn't any need for anything out of the ordinary on any other day. But it seems like the people I know in real life who complain about Valentine's or birthdays and being "expected" do to something on that day, are the same people who do *not* do the special things throughout the year. Zorra >> The thing for me about all these "expected gift/expected behavior" >> holidays is that my ex was just such a... I don't know; I'm not sure [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Zorra I'd bet that's true, too. Good observation (or insight)! > As for VD, I can see that I wouldn't like it if the romantic gestures > that were meaningful to my husband weren't fun for me. Ironic that the abbreviation for Valentine's Day is the same as the abbreviation for Venereal Disease. I can't help but think of VD as the disease. Maybe to some posters here, it's not ironic :-) >>As for VD, I can see that I wouldn't like it if the romantic gestures >>that were meaningful to my husband weren't fun for me. > > Ironic that the abbreviation for Valentine's Day is the same as the > abbreviation for Venereal Disease. Or Veterans Day. > I can't help but think of VD as > the disease. How romantic of you :-) > I like Thanksgiving because it has nothing to do with giving > presants. It's about having a good meal with family and folks who > don't have families. Yes, I like it far better than Christmas, > Hannukah, Valentine's day, etc. Especially the last two years, since > my son has done the cooking. This year I fell asleep while everyone > cleaned up too. I"m liking Thanksgiving more and more. Ok, I guess I've admitted more than once in the past that I like getting presents, so that's a strike against t-giving for starters, and strikes two and three are that I don't get particularly excited over the tradition t-giving menu items and I don't like holidays that make it easy to overeat. But apparently I'm alone in this corner of t-giving detractors. >> I like Thanksgiving because it has nothing to do with giving >> presants. It's about having a good meal with family and folks who [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > But apparently I'm alone in this corner of t-giving detractors. Oh the lack of presents is definitely a strike against TG ;-) > Most women I've talked with on the subject, find ways to > justify and embrace Valentine's Day. I think it is a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Cheers, > Larry G. I love Valentines day. You don't have to spend much money to honor your sweetie. >> Most women I've talked with on the subject, find ways to >> justify and embrace Valentine's Day. I think it is a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I love Valentines day. You don't have to spend much money to honor your > sweetie. I know it now. But it took me the better part of fifty years to figure this out. Cheers, Larry G. SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! >>> Most women I've talked with on the subject, find ways to >>> justify and embrace Valentine's Day. I think it is a [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Cheers, > Larry G. I can relate, I'm learning things now that should be prerequisites for emotional and social experience. (and I've been without TV since 93) >> Most women I've talked with on the subject, find ways to >> justify and embrace Valentine's Day. I think it is a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I love Valentines day. You don't have to spend much money to honor your >sweetie. I enjoy it. This year i'm giving him a special present. (we don't always exchanged gifts on V-day) I got a "boudoir" photoshoot, one of those coupon special deals. He's getting a couple 5x7's this year. ;-) I even surprised myself with this, i had no idea what some makeup, proper lighting and professional experience with posing can do for a "regular" person! We like any excuse to have a holiday in wintertime, although it doesn't mean cards or flowers. I'll make a special dinner and he'll offer a full body massage or something, or we'll crack out that DVD we've been holding off on. Any reason at all to celebrate and we're there. We keep a couple of bottles of champagne in case we get to really romancing. Chances are, we'll be as tired as usual. It may be very different for those who are still courting, though. Maybe the women you meet are wanting some sign of devotion or longterm commitment and that's what it means to them? Signaturehttp://www.wildernesscommittee.mb.ca/member.htm > We like any excuse to have a holiday in wintertime, although it doesn't > mean > cards or flowers. I'll make a special dinner and he'll offer a full body > massage or something, or we'll crack out that DVD we've been holding off > on. > Any reason at all to celebrate and we're there. I agree whole heartedly. Make your own holiday, to hell with the calendar. > We keep a couple of > bottles of champagne in case we get to really romancing. Chances are, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > commitment > and that's what it means to them? I think the women who expect the modern version of Valentine's day are too busy keeping score with one another (who got the best VD presents, gifts, treats) to have any real focus on the person doing the giving. But YMMV. Cheers, Larry G. SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! > On Fri, 09 Feb2007 10:40:05 -0600, Paula Nasturtium > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Cheers, > Larry G. I'm still surprised at your cynicism. I do know the kind of women you speak of - I can remember being one of only two women at a party in New Mexico, where the women actively conspired to make each of their husbands believe that the other husbands were buying expensive gifts or trips for their wives for Valentine's Day (and they did this at Christmas, too). The husbands were all good friends, that was the core of these gatherings - the guys would get together to go to a sporting event and one woman would host a party (with vague attempts to play cards) for all the wives. This was the pattern in El Paso, too, when I lived there. Many separate-sex events, during which the wives talked mainly about topics involving the husbands. Needless to say, I was unable to get on the bandwagon much for that kind of silliness. I didn't realize at first how serious these women were about obtaining jewelry and fur coats - or how specific (they'd pick out specific pieces of jewelry at some specific store or a particular fur coat they wanted). I don't see the point of that, at all. But surely, you can't believe that most women in your current age group (I believe you're around my age, based on things you've said before) are all so heartlessly materialistic. Then again, you live in Texas. A. >> On Fri, 09 Feb2007 10:40:05 -0600, Paula Nasturtium >> [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > A. ROFL. Texas? Texas has nothing to do with being materialistic, but being in the USA, at large, sure does. No states are exempt. Well, ok, except maybe some portions of Ohio. :-) >> On Fri, 09 Feb2007 10:40:05 -0600, Paula Nasturtium >> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > particular fur coat they wanted). I don't see the point of that, at > all. God those poor people. That is pathetic. > But surely, you can't believe that most women in your current age > group (I believe you're around my age, based on things you've said > before) are all so heartlessly materialistic. Then again, you live in > Texas. > > A. <snipped> > I'm still surprised at your cynicism. I do know the kind of women you > speak of - I can remember being one of only two women at a party in [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > before) are all so heartlessly materialistic. Then again, you live in > Texas. Now wait a dad-blame-minute! Watch what you're saying about Texas. OK, I'll admit to planning some things Chewy could get me for Valentine's Day.... He can make me a new drop spindle, a new spinning wheel, and/or finish re-building the milking stand. And he can make enough drop spindles and spinning wheels for us to take to the Artisan Yarn shop that has placed orders with us. Of course, the other women in this part of Texas who have the same thoughts I do about such holidays happen to originate from the same state I do. ;-) Kitten >> It may be very different for those who are still courting, though. >> Maybe the women you meet are wanting some sign of devotion or longterm [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >presents, gifts, treats) to have any real focus on the person doing >the giving. But YMMV. Ever been at the reception desk of a medium- or large-sized business in a class A office building or highrise on Valentine's day? The female staffers DO keep score not only WITH, but ON each other's gift and flower deliveries. The competition is cutthroat. Signature"Other than telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, now, die, I think the Republicans have done a fine job of getting government out of our personal lives." -- Craig Carter, in his Sunday Oregonian column "Short and Sweet" > Valentine's Day is my favorite holiday to rant at. > Having suffered through far too many, I consider it [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > pricks in her life. This year, who knows? As long as it isn't > discardable, consumable or fabulously expensive. What's the big deal? Sure it is a silly commercialized holiday, but why is it so onerous to give a person you are romantically involved with some token of your romantic involvement? A rose bush sounds great. A walk in the park isn't exactly a gift, though it too can be a nice thing. "And you want to be my LAMPS salesman?: >"And you want to be my LAMPS salesman?: "Van deLay Industries! Van deLay Industries!" Lauri in WA > Valentine's Day is my favorite holiday to rant at. > Having suffered through far too many, I consider it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > utterance; I won't even *see* a woman for the next six > months, let alone get to touch one! I think this is the first time I've got the impression you were dating women at all. Do you date several women at once or only one? Do you have a pool of women and then, the one that doesn't make a big deal of Valentine's Day - you keep her around for the next year, right? If not, it's probably the newness of the relationship. If you're touching women, and the relationship is fairly new, many of the creatures do indeed expect frequent romantic gestures. If she's into commercialized expectations, I'd think you'd have found that out long before VD. A. >> Valentine's Day is my favorite holiday to rant at. >> Having suffered through far too many, I consider it [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > deal of Valentine's Day - you keep her around for the next year, > right? Up until about five years ago, I was still getting over my divorce in '91. Since then, my income, age and status have further reduced the already slim pickings for women my age, who I consider worthwhile prospects. For about three years, I was involved in a quasi-intimate, highly platonic friendship with a woman from my church. She has recently had to find other interest(s) due to my work and activity schedule. I liked her a lot, but we reminded each other of mates we've had in the pasts, in relationships which did not work out. While I greatly enjoyed our friendship, I am also glad that we did not take it to a more serious commited level. > If not, it's probably the newness of the relationship. If you're > touching women, and the relationship is fairly new, many of the > creatures do indeed expect frequent romantic gestures. If she's into > commercialized expectations, I'd think you'd have found that out long > before VD. I consider most of what passes for "romantic gestures" to be driven by commercial marketing and hackneyed cliche`s. Cheers, Larry G. > A. SignatureYour mind is a terrible thing to waste - TURN OFF YOUR TV! > On Fri, 09 Feb2007 12:04:29 -0600, Atalanta, O.G. > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > prospects. For about three years, I was involved in a quasi-intimate, > highly platonic friendship with a woman from my church. I hear ya. But that's a very long time to be out of a relationship - and you're rusty. Not only that, you're starting to characterize women who might want a relationship with you in a tired and hackneyed way, as you did in the post that started this thread. Regardless of how rich or poor you are, how old you are, and how you look or what your status is, there are women who are not as materialistic as you describe. Indeed, the suggestions that Dr. Nancy's Sweetie provided would work for most women on Valentine's Day - regardless of their social status - if that woman was looking for anything more than an occasional meal (or a meal ticket). I just don't know all that many mercenary women. If you're running into that many, you need to change your search strategies. > She has recently had to find other interest(s) due to my work > and activity schedule. I liked her a lot, but we reminded each other > of mates we've had in the pasts, in relationships which did not work > out. While I greatly enjoyed our friendship, I am also glad that we > did not take it to a more serious commited level. Are you saying that you expected to find the same problems, again, in your new relationship? Well, it's possible that you'd find many overlapping problems and traits (from previous relationships) especially while building a new relationship. You have no other relationships to compare a new relationship to, so the similarities to the old relationship will stand out, at first. Of course, you've already mentioned that you feel confined to dating women from a particular culture/genetic pool that is sufficiently like your own background - and that is indeed supposed by many to make relationships work better. But, given that preference, you're very likely to find women who are socially and culturally similar to the other women you've known. I don't get any impression, from your post, that the two of you got to know each other well - and you say that you didn't take it further. Do you think you truly go to know this woman well? It sounds to me, that as the two of you got to know each other, you pulled back and let your work life interfere with proceeding with the relationship - because you didn't really care that much for her. You weren't in love with her - and you weren't falling in love with her. Was there even an initial infatuation, at all? I know you claim occasionally that love and romantic feelings are beside the point, but I think those are the only ingredients most women are looking for, in starting up a LTR (and I think that applies more to women in our age group than to 20-30 year olds). Most people have their own lives to live, they have their own incomes, they don't need expensive presents from some man. But little romantic gestures spring up out of the heartfelt devotion and desire that one feels for one's partner. Spontaneous small actions that surprise and delight one's SO are at the heart of a good relationship. Valentine's Day merely gives us a focus - a time about a few days from now, that jogs our memories about this important part of relationships. For us, Valentine's evening is a time we know we'll spend together, make our favorite meal, reflect on sweet times of the past, and I'll probably get him candy, since I know he won't buy it for himself and it wouldn't hurt him to have a little chocolate this week. Last year was the first year he actually bought me something - a pajamagram! Other years he's done things like spruce up the winter garden and find posies to bring in, and I've gotten a CD to play while we eat dinner by candlelight - he always remembers to light the candles on VD, but he does that regularly anyway. (Now that I think of it, he's been working so much, he hasn't lit them up as much as he used to, I need to help out in that department). The look of surprise and joy on his face if I remember to do something romantic (on VD or otherwise - but of course, on VD as well) is priceless. I'm the less romantic of the two of us, this thread (and Valentine's Day) reminds me I need to do something about that. As for you, Larry - why don't you consider placing your concerns in a different order (just in your head, you don't have to DO anything). What sort of woman would inspire you to *want* to make little romantic gestures - so that you couldn't keep yourself from wanting to write a love note to her? Heck, even those silly e-cards are great in a pinch - and any woman who really liked you would be delighted to get one either on VD or at other times. Right? > I consider most of what passes for "romantic gestures" to be > driven by commercial marketing and hackneyed cliche`s. Then your view of the world could use some expansion. If you get close enough to someone to really know them, all that commercial stuff falls away - at least, I wouldn't encourage you to try to get closer to a woman who only wanted hackneyed materialistic displays of "affection." If you think that's all women have seen in you, in the past, you need to work on your self-esteem, Larry! I've noticed, after looking at the LAMPS page, that you have a number of hobbies and what I'd call general philosophical or political interests. There are plenty of wome |
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