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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / February 2007How do you know...
if it is time to give up on your marriage? Is there some kind of time limit? Or is there some critical behavior that is a deal breaker? I wish I knew. I keep hoping my marriage will weather the storm, but it is becoming increasingly obvious to me that may never happen. I want to be happy, or if I can't be happy I want to at least be on an even keel emotionally. I want my kids to grow up and know the difference between a good relationship and a bad relationship. I want them to know that material items are not more important than how you treat people. All I'm asking from you is to tell me when it's okay to call it quits. >if it is time to give up on your marriage? Is there some kind of time >limit? Or is there some critical behavior that is a deal breaker? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >All I'm asking from you is to tell me when it's okay to call it quits. But that's such an individual thing. I'm guessing that there isn't some huge dealbreaker issue, something waving a red flag, like abuse or alcoholism. And when that isn't the case, it's personal; it's knowing when you've done everything that you can reasonably do to improve things. It's knowing that you and your children are better off alone than in the relationship. For me, it was when I realized that nothing would EVER be different, and that there was no way that I could further adapt or change in a way that would make the situation all right. When I realized that my mental health would only worsen staying in the marriage. When I realized that my son could not be worse off with two parents who loved him by were not married than he was living in a situation where his parents did nothing in each others company, where he learned that this was the model for a relationship. But you have to get to that point yourself, although I'm guessing that if you're asking the question, you may already be there. now cause if you wont to save it you wouldnt be wonting to know when to get off the wagon and find you another stud > if it is time to give up on your marriage? Is there some kind of time > limit? Or is there some critical behavior that is a deal breaker? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > All I'm asking from you is to tell me when it's okay to call it quits. What steps have you taken to make your marraige better? Have you done everything you could to make *this* marriage the 'good relationship' you model for your children? Remember, there is _no_ guarentee that should you leave your current husband that you will ever find that special 'one' that'll have the 'good relationship' you're hoping for... and whose to say that, should you find that person, that you'll find them in time to model anything for your kids. On Feb 22, 4:54 pm, "kimmichi...@gmail.com" <kimmichi...@gmail.com> wrote: > if it is time to give up on your marriage? Is there some kind of time > limit? Or is there some critical behavior that is a deal breaker? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > All I'm asking from you is to tell me when it's okay to call it quits. I'm sure you know exactly what you are referring to in your posts, but you provide no real details for the rest of us to work with. So, what seems to be the problem(s)? What have you and your partner done to correct the problem? Did either of you come from families in which this problem was also present (while you were growing up)? In general, there are four real justifications for divorce: abuse, adultery, abandonment, and addiction. Were/are any of these present in your marriage? Regards, Larry G. On Feb 23, 12:54 am, "kimmichi...@gmail.com" <kimmichi...@gmail.com> wrote: > if it is time to give up on your marriage? Is there some kind of time > limit? Or is there some critical behavior that is a deal breaker? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > All I'm asking from you is to tell me when it's okay to call it quits. مرحبا ممكن نتعرف > if it is time to give up on your marriage? Is there some kind of time > limit? Or is there some critical behavior that is a deal breaker? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > All I'm asking from you is to tell me when it's okay to call it quits. There is no simple and unique answer for this, as I'm sure you must know. I should ask you, however: have you BOTH been to counseling together, or doesn't he think it's worth it? (presuming at least you would consider it)? Deal breakers for me would be 1. Abuse (this includes physical, emotional, verbal etc. including endless criticism etc.) 2. Abandonment 3. Addictions 4. Adultery 5. Felony Convictions 6. Compulsive Lying 7. Lack of Shared Direction/Vision/Desires for your lives (i.e. he wants kids, you DON'T, you are wild with money, he's very cautious, he is okay with sex once every two weeks, you want it daily). #7 is a tough one, since you can overcome some with compromise, but I would say if your big dream is to live in a cabin in the Yukon and his vision of bliss is a condo in the Trump Tower, you might be in trouble. However, #7 represents most of what you are supposed to find out during courtship, not after the wedding day! M. >Deal breakers for me would be > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >trouble. However, #7 represents most of what you are supposed to find >out during courtship, not after the wedding day! It's amazing, though, how much you may NOT find out before the wedding day, even if there's no real intent to deceive. People put their best faces on, and sometimes they lie even to themselves. And people really do change; age and life and everything else takes its toll. > Deal breakers for me would be > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > trouble. However, #7 represents most of what you are supposed to find > out during courtship, not after the wedding day! I don't think you honestly can. Besides which, people change, as they mature. To truly believe otherwise .... might be a tad naive. > It's amazing, though, how much you may NOT find out before the wedding > day, even if there's no real intent to deceive. Yes - but questions need to be asked and answered before marriage. And, if they can't be answered properly, then walk away. What I found entertaining and equally disturbing during my bachelor days was the number of women that either don't know what they wanted or were willing to throw what they wanted away because some man looked good at the time, all in hopes. Sad part; more often then not, these are the marriages that fail.  SignatureSD:) > Deal breakers for me would be > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > find > out during courtship, not after the wedding day! Does this exhaust the reasons you'd get out? And if so, does the abandonment have to be physical? Or could it be emotional? That is, if you've exhausted yourself with trying over the course of years, and your spouse refuses to try to make any kind of an emotional connection with you, would that be enough? Zorra >> Deal breakers for me would be >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Zorra That sounds pretty common, too. Well, I'm sure you already know that. >> Deal breakers for me would be >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> 6. Compulsive Lying >> 7. Lack of Shared Direction/Vision/Desires for your lives (i.e. he Wow, I'm looking at 1,2,6 and possibly 4. yay me... Lucy got some 'splainin to do >> ... 2. Abandonment > ...does the abandonment have to be physical? Or > could it be emotional? That is, if you've exhausted > yourself with trying over the course of years, and your > spouse refuses to try to make any kind of an emotional > connection with you, would that be enough? In my book, emotional abandonment may qualify, but IMO, its important to be careful how you use that term. Shutting down and withdrawing is ususally a sign of of physical or mental health issue, like depression. I'd say that if a spouse consciously refuses to participate in the marriage, other than by simply being there, that is /constructive/ abandonment. =R= >>> ... 2. Abandonment >> ...does the abandonment have to be physical? Or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > In my book, emotional abandonment may qualify, but IMO, > its important to be careful how you use that term. Well, I wasn't trying to use a term exactly. It's just that her list didn't leave any room for when the love is just gone, and at least one partner has worn themselves out trying to recapture it. Some people certainly do believe that deep unhappiness is not a reason to leave a marriage. I just don't know where she stands on it. > Shutting > down and withdrawing is ususally a sign of of physical or > mental health issue, like depression. I've now had 3 people (you're the second tonight in fact, the first being a real life friend) who thinks he could be depressed. I really just don't see it. I think he's just uninterested in me. Zorra > I've now had 3 people (you're the second tonight in fact, > the first being a real life friend) who thinks he could be > depressed. I really just don't see it. I think he's just > uninterested in me. Lemme tell you I have an emotional "wall" that has been an integral part of my personality ever since my youth (due to some unfortunate events). This has causes both my ex and my current wife to say that sometimes I come across cold and unfeeling. I prefer to think that its because I simply am not verbal and tend to internalize my thinking. I think that's something that should be accepted. OTOH, if his behavior is more than that... If he's acting like he is not married or does not want to be, and delibrately ignoring you , even after efforts have been made to deal with the issuem, including therapy, then yeah, you're stuck in a love-less marriage and deserve better. =R= >> I've now had 3 people (you're the second tonight in fact, >> the first being a real life friend) who thinks he could be [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > with the issuem, including therapy, then yeah, you're stuck > in a love-less marriage and deserve better. =R= My husband grew up in a "cold" household. I'm not sure there was ever anything in the way of physical affection past infancy. His father is just like him personality-wise, and to them, approval is based on achievement. We are judged by what we do, and nothing else makes any sense. His mom is the opposite extreme -- she will excuse anything, and does not think anything bad of anyone ever. As a result of that, and of his own personality, he believes that no one is special, that even wanting to be considered special to someone is some kind of a weakness. So, I believe that he is who he is, and that it's not something that he "chooses" to be. However, I'm not sure what you mean by it "should be accepted". Perhaps I can accept that he is that way, but not accept that I have to live with someone who is this way. That is, perhaps I feel that I deserve better even if he's not being deliberately cold. Zorra > ... he believes that no one is special, that even wanting to be > considered special to someone is some kind of a weakness > ... perhaps I feel that I deserve better even if he's not being > deliberately cold. What you describe is extreme. To me, he sounds maladjusted. IMO, he needs to learn that /normal/ people are not like that. As that song goes: "... first be a person who needs people. People who need people, are the luckiest people in the world." (B. Streisand) That will take counselling, perhaps marriage counselling, since you're having trouble coping with it. In year seven of my first marriage, it took an ultimatum from my ex to get it thru my thick skull that my nose-in-the-air attitude had us on thin ice. Perhaps he needs to see that, too. =R= > #7 is a tough one, since you can overcome some with compromise, but I > would say if your big dream is to live in a cabin in the Yukon and his > vision of bliss is a condo in the Trump Tower, you might be in > trouble. However, #7 represents most of what you are supposed to find > out during courtship, not after the wedding day! Excellent <g> SignatureSD:) > Deal breakers for me would be > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > trouble. However, #7 represents most of what you are supposed to find > out during courtship, not after the wedding day! The OP hasn't given enough specifics to know what she's dealing with, but this post is interesting and made me think about what *I* would consider a deal breaker. I have concluded that I don't know! It's another one of those things that fits into "I know it when I see it". If I wanted to make a general statement, I'd say something that indicates a fundamental change in the core of my husband's personality would be very difficult for me to live with. Other than that I think (or at least hope) that I can endure his failures and shortcomings, if I see a desire and effort to overcome them. Whether I can do that or not I don't know! > > Deal breakers for me would be > > 1. Abuse (this includes physical, emotional, verbal etc. including [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > failures and shortcomings, if I see a desire and effort to overcome > them. Whether I can do that or not I don't know! Yes, I feel the same way. Having had the particular experience of my wife being depressed for a long time, I think if she was depressed for a long time, and refused to seek treatment, that might be a dealbreaker. [In some ways that is an example of a fundamental change in the core of her personality.] I don't know about anything else for sure though. >> > Deal breakers for me would be >> > 1. Abuse (this includes physical, emotional, verbal etc. including [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > I don't know about anything else for sure though. My wife would probably agree with that last example (genders reversed.) She talks about "not trying." But getting away from the depression issue, it is my belief that in many cases, a bad marriage is better than no marriage. A marriage of some kind gives life continuity? meaning? -neither really, but continuity gets the idea best. I doubt that there is any clear demarcation, beyond which a separation is "justified." Each case must be assessed on its own merits, and I would rarely condemn any spouse who feels like leaving. I can understand the logic of the change of personality: my spouse is no longer the person I married. But emotions aren't logical. And men and women react differently. Felony convictions - in the "fault" days here, imprisonment for over 12 months was a ground for divorce - but the other party had to file before release. But now, without fault, the question doesn't arise. In the fault days, leaving justifiably made the person who stayed behind the deserting party. Now, after 12 months' separation, either party can call it quits. When I was (erroneously) diagnosed with hemophilia, my wife wanted to "send me back" - an idea something like a misrepresentation as to my "merchantable quality" as a husband. The reaction was more immediate than lasting. And we had 3 daughters (who would have to have been carriers) and no sons (who would have been free of it.) Doug L. SignatureI am a man; I consider nothing pertaining to mankind as foreign to my nature. - Plautus, Roman writer of comedies, 163 B.c. (snip) > But getting away from the depression issue, it is my belief that in many > cases, a bad marriage is better than no marriage. As an abstract point, I disagree with this strongly. I don't see any reason to _have_ a bad marriage. If I had a bad marriage, and we couldn't improve it, I wouldn't want to stay in that situation. For one thing, I'm happier alone than with someone I'm having conflicts with. For another, being in a bad marriage that you can't alter prevents finding a good marriage. > A marriage of some kind > gives life continuity? meaning? -neither really, but continuity gets the > idea best. I doubt that there is any clear demarcation, beyond which a > separation is "justified." Yes. > Each case must be assessed on its own merits, > and I would rarely condemn any spouse who feels like leaving. I can > understand the logic of the change of personality: my spouse is no longer > the person I married. But emotions aren't logical. And men and women > react differently. People react differently. Men don't all react the same. Neither do women. > It's another one of those things that fits into "I know it when I see it". This is one of those statements that is not only overly used, it's a dumping line for not taking the time to determine what's really important over what's trivial or negotiable. Imagine if it never comes into your vision --- then your saying you didn't care about it, what ever "it" is. SignatureSD:) >>It's another one of those things that fits into "I know it when I see it". > > This is one of those statements that is not only overly used, it's a > dumping line for not taking the time to determine what's really > important over what's trivial or negotiable. Not at all. It's not that I don't know what is important, I simply don't find it useful to think of a list of deal breakers now, when I don't know how I will feel if something that I *think* important turns out the way I didn't foresee. Life has taught me that we are capable of things (both negative and positive) that we cannot imagine under normal circumstances. > Imagine if it never comes > into your vision --- then your saying you didn't care about it, what > ever "it" is. Well, for close to 3 decades nothing has come close to being a deal breaker for us - and I expect that nothing will for the rest of our life. I don't think making a list of deal breakers right now will help me in anyway, nor do I think I will know for sure how I will react under unpredictable circumstances. |
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