Dr. Lith, you may know this...
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WhansaMi - 22 Mar 2007 04:02 GMT was the name Adolph a popular one before Hitler? I mean... if a German child was born in say... 1946, would the parents giving that child the name Adoph mean a supporter, necessarily, or was it so common that it just didn't take on the stigma? Sheila
Tara D - 22 Mar 2007 05:52 GMT >was the name Adolph a popular one before Hitler? I mean... if a German >child was born in say... 1946, would the parents giving that child the name >Adoph mean a supporter, necessarily, or was it so common that it just didn't >take on the stigma? >Sheila I would think it's equivalent would be Albert. Name of royalty and saints. More popular in the earlier part of the century.
Tara
Bill in Co. - 22 Mar 2007 05:56 GMT >> was the name Adolph a popular one before Hitler? I mean... if a German >> child was born in say... 1946, would the parents giving that child the name
>> Adoph mean a supporter, necessarily, or was it so common that it just didn't
>> take on the stigma? >> Sheila [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Tara I agree with the last statement, but am not so sure about the other two (as being "typical" or not).
Doug Anderson - 22 Mar 2007 06:19 GMT > was the name Adolph a popular one before Hitler? I mean... if a German > child was born in say... 1946, would the parents giving that child the name > Adoph mean a supporter, necessarily, or was it so common that it just didn't > take on the stigma? The interesting thing about this to me (and I have no real idea what the answer to the question is), is that WWII didn't seem to damage the popularity of Adolph as a name in the US!
(see, e.g., http://thebabynamewizard.ivillage.com/parenting/archives/2005/02/)
Of course it may be true that many people who named their child Adolph in the US after WWII were sympathetic to Nazism or anti-semitism. I'm not asserting that - I simply have no idea. As an american, 60 years later, it still seems inconceivable to name one's child "Adolph!"
DrLith - 22 Mar 2007 13:07 GMT >> was the name Adolph a popular one before Hitler? I mean... if a German >> child was born in say... 1946, would the parents giving that child the name [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > not asserting that - I simply have no idea. As an american, 60 years > later, it still seems inconceivable to name one's child "Adolph!" ad
If you go to another part of that site and type in "Adolph," you can see that while never a hugely popular name, the biggest decline in popularity occurred between 1910 and 1940, most likely related to an overall decline in the use of "ethnic" names during that period. If you mouse over any part of the graph, you can see a popup that shows the overall rank of the name among all names for that particular decade.
It looks like Hitler didn't completely fall off the charts until the 1970s. I think there are a couple of factors in play there.
The first, noted in another blog entry I found written by the same babynamewizard blogger, is that in 1950, there continued to be a number of parents, grandparents, favorite uncles, and so on, named Adolph. So, despite the connection with the dictator, for many Adolph Hitler was not the only Adolph they knew. In other words, the immediate one-to-one correlation that we experience between "Adolph" and "Adolph Hilter" had not yet been forged. As the name decreased in popularity and fewer and fewer non-Hitler Adolphs were part of people's lives, the association between the first name and Der Fuhrer became more total.
Second, I think we tend to put on our present-day glasses when we think about historical personages: in other words, we assume that in 1950 people viewed Adolph Hitler in precisely the same way that we do today. However, my impression is that while people in the 1950s surely viewed Hitler as a bad person, he was not yet such an overwhelming cultural icon as he is today. Nor, do I think, was he yet viewed as the epitome of all evil, deserving of a place in the innermost circle of Hell.
Compare the connotation of Adolph/Adolph Hitler with Joseph/Joseph Stalin. While most would cringe at naming a baby "Adolph," most wouldn't think twice about naming a baby "Joseph." Why is that? Arguably, Joseph Stalin showed every bit as much callous disregard for human life as Adolph Hitler. Unlike Adolph, though, Joseph continued to be associated with a vast range of Josephs beyond Stalin, from Jesus's earthly father to hundreds of thousands of Uncle Joe's. The name also "sounds American" and has never ranked lower than #13 in the list of most popular baby names. In addition, Joseph Stalin never came to be viewed as quite the same cultural icon of evil that Adolph Hitler did.
And, of course, there was and is a minority in this country that admire Adolph Hitler--and not just avowed members of the Aryan Nations.
This business of trends in naming is an interesting example of one of the ways that historians today are attempting to construct new "cultural histories" of attitudes, beliefs, and ideas among the masses--who left more traces in the historical record than was once assumed. The number of historical censuses that have been digitized is growing by leaps and bounds these days, as is the ease with which historians can analyze them. This makes it relatively simple to track something such as the popularity of a birth name.
One historian I've worked with has headed up a project digitizing historical census records for Guadalajara, Mexico. (Spain and her former colonies, whatever else you may think of them, were way ahead of their time when it came to producing bean-counters and mountains of paperwork.) A different historian working in the same city had looked at the popularity of the name "Guadalupe" (the patron saint of Mexico, which has very strong nationalistic/anti-colonial tones) during the early 1800s, right before the Mexican Wars of Independence, based on baptismal records. But based on the census records, it seems like a lot of babies recorded as Guadalupes were not being called by that name when the census-takers came around. Why? Because, he speculates, in 1800, there was a groundswell of nationalistic sentiment that would lead to the wars of independence, and lots of babies were named Guadalupe. But when the bullets were flying between 1810 and 1820, when whose side you were on could be a matter of life and death, a lot of those Guadalupes started using their middle names to avoid that strong association with the rebel cause! A baptismal name, in some ways, represents the parents' ideals, while the census name reflects a much more pragmatic usage.
So, to turn this back on the original question: it'd be interesting to look at trends in the use of Adolph after 1945 not just in terms of birth records submitted to the SSA, but in terms of the names people used in daily life. My guess? A lot of kids named Adolph started using a variant, or some other name, in the decades after WWII.
DrLith - 22 Mar 2007 14:23 GMT >>> was the name Adolph a popular one before Hitler? I mean... if a >>> German child was born in say... 1946, would the parents giving that [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > If you go to another part of that site Goodness gracious, I think I meant to paste in a link here!
http://babynamewizard.com/namevoyager/lnv0105.html
Doug Anderson - 22 Mar 2007 15:51 GMT > >> was the name Adolph a popular one before Hitler? I mean... if a > >> German child was born in say... 1946, would the parents giving that [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > popularity occurred between 1910 and 1940, most likely related to an > overall decline in the use of "ethnic" names during that period. Yes. Actually that information is on the page I cited. They make the point that the decline mirrors the decline in all German sounding names.
> If you mouse over any part of the graph, you can see a popup that shows > the overall rank of the name among all names for that particular [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > the epitome of all evil, deserving of a place in the innermost circle > of Hell. You could be right about this. I wasn't alive in the 1950s. But I was in the 1960s, and by the 1970s I'd read a lot about Hitler and WWII, much of it written shortly after the war. I certainly have the _impression_ that he was considered the epitome of evil by the 1960s, if not before, but it is hard to compare without Godwin's law to scale your observations with!
> Compare the connotation of Adolph/Adolph Hitler with Joseph/Joseph > Stalin. No thank you! For lots of reasons. Stalin was an evil man, responsible for many deaths, but I find the comparison almost as odious as I would if someone said "compare Mcnamara to John Wayne Gacy - Mcnamara was responsible for many more deaths." He has never come to epitomize evil in the same was as Hitler has (not because Stalin is necessarily less evil, but because the things he did were of a different sort).
And of course the main point is the one you make below that in the US Joseph is a common name and Adolph isn't, especially.
> While most would cringe at naming a baby "Adolph," most > wouldn't think twice about naming a baby "Joseph." Why is that? [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > of their time when it came to producing bean-counters and mountains of > paperwork.) That's interesting to know! Germany has also been ahead of its time in this too, which makes it surprising to me that none of us can find anything about the answer to Sheila's question (popularity of Adolph in Germany) on the internet. I even tried searching in German, out of curiosity, which I can hack my way through. Though I probably can't hack my way through it well enough to do an effective google search.
> A different historian working in the same city had looked > at the popularity of the name "Guadalupe" (the patron saint of Mexico, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > used in daily life. My guess? A lot of kids named Adolph started using > a variant, or some other name, in the decades after WWII. Yes, that would be interesting data to know about. Though to be sure, Adolph (even apart from connotations) is not a name that comes trippingly off the US tongue. It is the kind of name in the US that begs for a nickname anyway.
Vulnero - 29 Mar 2007 00:45 GMT On Mar 22, 9:51 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Compare the connotation of Adolph/Adolph Hitler with Joseph/Joseph > > Stalin. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > necessarily less evil, but because the things he did were of a > different sort). Hitler may be the epitome of evil in the popular imagination, but Stalin completely topped Hitler in terms of the number of deaths he caused. The usual estimate of the number of deaths attributable to Stalin is 20 million, but the number has been estimated as high as 43 million. It makes Hitler seem like an amateur. I'm not sure why Stalin doesn't get the same status as Hitler in popular culture.
Bill in Co. - 29 Mar 2007 04:57 GMT > On Mar 22, 9:51 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > million. It makes Hitler seem like an amateur. I'm not sure why > Stalin doesn't get the same status as Hitler in popular culture. Because WWII is primarily the legacy of Hitler; it was born with him, and it pretty much ended with him. So from THAT point of view (and not just the number of deaths), Stalin comes in second, and Mussolini third (for just the Western Theater), IMO.
DrLith - 30 Mar 2007 00:17 GMT > I'm not sure why > Stalin doesn't get the same status as Hitler in popular culture. Stalin may have killed more people, but Hitler has killed more Usenet threads. "There's your trouble," as they say.
Vulnero - 30 Mar 2007 02:09 GMT > > I'm not sure why > > Stalin doesn't get the same status as Hitler in popular culture. > > Stalin may have killed more people, but Hitler has killed more Usenet > threads. "There's your trouble," as they say. LOL. Thanks for the laugh.
Doug Anderson - 30 Mar 2007 01:53 GMT > On Mar 22, 9:51 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > million. It makes Hitler seem like an amateur. I'm not sure why > Stalin doesn't get the same status as Hitler in popular culture. I think there are at least two issues.
How evil someone is isn't measured solely by the number they killed. You could argue that killing your enemies, or people that disagree with you is less evil, for example, than killing people because of their ethnicity or religion.
Also, I don't think I buy the numbers. Suppose you take all those who died in WWII. That's a huge number. It's certainly higher than 20 million. If you divide that by the number of years Hitler was in power, I bet you have a bigger fatality rate per year than for Stalin.
Vulnero - 30 Mar 2007 02:15 GMT On Mar 29, 7:53 pm, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mar 22, 9:51 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Well I am really not interested in getting into an argument about this. It is only in the last few years that I have become aware of just how many people Stalin killed, and it came as somewhat of a surprise to me that he didn't fare worse than Hitler in the popular imagination. If anyone out there wants to consider Hitler as the worst of the two, I am perfectly OK with that.
Bill in Co. - 22 Mar 2007 20:19 GMT >>> was the name Adolph a popular one before Hitler? I mean... if a German >>> child was born in say... 1946, would the parents giving that child the name [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > Hitler as a bad person, he was not yet such an overwhelming cultural > icon as he is today. This, based on what? I don't agree. I'd say it's probably a toss up - and that it's pretty hard to ascertain - for sure.
> Nor, do I think, was he yet viewed as the epitome > of all evil, deserving of a place in the innermost circle of Hell. Again, I think this is pure conjecture on your part.
PH - 28 Mar 2007 17:00 GMT > >> was the name Adolph a popular one before Hitler? I mean... if a German > >> child was born in say... 1946, would the parents giving that child the name [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > > - Show quoted text - When we were deciding on baby names, my husband wouldn't allow one because he thought it sounded to ethnic.
Grace - 22 Mar 2007 06:22 GMT > was the name Adolph a popular one before Hitler? I mean... if a German > child was born in say... 1946, would the parents giving that child the name > Adoph mean a supporter, necessarily, or was it so common that it just didn't > take on the stigma? > Sheila I found this or you, Sheila.
http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=adolf
Grace
Grace - 22 Mar 2007 06:31 GMT > > was the name Adolph a popular one before Hitler? I mean... if a German > > child was born in say... 1946, would the parents giving that child the name [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Grace And then I found this one:
http://www.babynamewizard.com/namevoyager/lnv0105.html
doug@dougshost.invalid - 22 Mar 2007 14:35 GMT >> was the name Adolph a popular one before Hitler? I mean... if a German >> child was born in say... 1946, would the parents giving that child the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Grace which rather suggests that it is the other way around. I was a Ham Radio operator. The swastika was around before Hitler. A QSL Card (the card we use to confirm contacts) from about the 1930's with 2 large swastikas on it was shown in a magazine. As the author pointed out, they had nothing to do with Hitler; he simply chose an existing symbol. But he still got trounced for showing it.
Doug L.
 Signature 127.0.0.1(Still not fixed.)
Bill in Co. - 22 Mar 2007 20:23 GMT >>> was the name Adolph a popular one before Hitler? I mean... if a German >>> child was born in say... 1946, would the parents giving that child the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > which rather suggests that it is the other way around. I was a Ham Radio > operator. The swastika was around before Hitler. That's right. And IIRC, waaay before his time.
> A QSL Card (the card we > use to confirm contacts) from about the 1930's with 2 large swastikas on it > was shown in a magazine. As the author pointed out, they had nothing to do > with Hitler; he simply chose an existing symbol. But he still got trounced > for showing it. It's pretty hard to "see" that symbol in any other context. At least for many of us.
Bill in Co. - 29 Mar 2007 05:18 GMT (and Japan, obviously)
> Vulnero wrote: >> On Mar 22, 9:51 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Because WWII is primarily the legacy of Hitler; it was born with him, and it
> pretty much ended with him. (and Japan, obviously!)
So from THAT point of view (and not just the
> number of deaths), Stalin comes in second, and Mussolini third (for just the
> Western Theater), IMO.
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