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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / April 2007Update 2: Marriage collapsing within weeks
Hopefully some of you remember my situation. I moved to DC with my wife of 5 years last summer. For 8 years we've been attached at the hip- best friends and deeply in love. This February she dropped a bomb on me- she doesn't want to have children, doesn't love me, and doesn't want to be married or go to counseling. My last thread is here: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.marriage/browse_thread/thread/aca27c7 7168aff66/70185b935c44b4e6?hl=en& In late March, she moved out- 20-30 minutes away from where we lived together. I asked again for us to go to counseling, but to her it was over and done with. A week after she moved, we had dinner and talked about this again- she was still convinced it was over. We had been together 8 years- and within a few weeks she was gone from my life, with no real warning signs. When we went out, she asked if I had signed up for any dating websites!! This was insulting and hurtful to hear- how can I even think about that? This was also revealing something- if she was ready for me to date, she must be ready to go on dates herself. Well, I found out this weekend that she *is* seeing someone now, and is in "love." It's someone she works with, someone almost 20 years older, and someone I've met in my own house. If they are already "in love" it leads me to believe that she was seeing him before she left, or before she even told me about this. I can't prove this- but it makes sense. They spent their days working together- there must have been some romantic tension if they are now together. She swore multiple times the she was never cheating the entire time we were together (8 friggin years). She also said she just wanted to be alone and thought we were better apart. This is devastating of course- I had convinced myself that no matter how she felt, there was a least a fraction of a chance she would change her mind months from now. Knowing that she's so quickly moved on to someone else- I guess it's liberating and a huge blow at the same time. When I thought she was leaving for different reasons- I wanted to stay friends. Now,I don't want to see her again. > <abridged> .. When we went out, she asked if I had signed up > for any dating websites!! This was insulting and hurtful to hear -- [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ... Knowing that she's so quickly moved on to someone else -- > I guess it's liberating and a huge blow at the same time... -------------------- Its likely that she was infatuated this guy, but felt too contrstained to pursue it until separated from you. My ex: "I want to be free to be my own person" (and see this other guy I met at flight school). So, I'm not surprised. Allow yourself to be angry. Use that as fuel to close this chapter of your life and start a new one. But you can also feel a little pity for her chosing to throw away what could have been a great life for a single life that will not be as easy or the party that the she may think. =R= > > <abridged> .. When we went out, she asked if I had signed up > > for any dating websites!! This was insulting and hurtful to hear -- [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > think. > =R= What Rog said. A. > Hopefully some of you remember my situation. I moved to DC with my > wife of 5 years last summer. For 8 years we've been attached at the [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > same time. When I thought she was leaving for different reasons- I > wanted to stay friends. Now,I don't want to see her again. The same thing happened to the son of a very good friend of mine. There was no sign whatsoever beforehand that she had "fallen in love" - also with a man her senior. I think I know why women are so susceptible to this - at least some of the reasons. But, you probably don't care at this point. My friend's son was able to start dating about 18 months after finding out about the affair. We all believed at first that his wife would come back to him, but the divorce is now final. What's really hard about this for the man who is left behind (in this case, you) is that the wife actually undergoes an almost complete transformation, which humans often find irresistible and enjoyable, while you are still stuck in the same place, not having initiated any transformations (yet) yourself. And you're angry, which is not the same starting place for transformation as "being in love," as she is. She left you holding the anger bag and moved out with the love bag, so to speak. At least you're stopping the love-toward-her that was previously sincere - and holding you back from moving on. And while it's an awful way to end a marriage, it's good that you're finding out the truth - doesn't it help? You were very angry and now you know why. It's not just you and your inability to understand her or what she was going through - it was and is more complex. My intuition says she wants to be with a man who's more in charge of her, more powerful, a senior at work, etc., etc. Very basic and very common. A. > My intuition says she wants to be with a man who's more in charge of > her, more powerful, a senior at work, etc., etc. Very basic and very > common. I am not sure the part "in charge of her" fits... :) I suspect it's many older men are proven, we're confident, assertive, even tempered and comfortable in our own skin which comes across as incharge of our surroundings. I think many younger women come to realize that being "ontop" or in control over any man isn't their idea of a real man. Real men are suppose to lead... course that's from one that does:)  SignatureSD:) > > My intuition says she wants to be with a man who's more in charge of > > her, more powerful, a senior at work, etc., etc. Very basic and very [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > SD:) Yeah- well she never made me feel like I wasn't any of those things. But I guess not enough... >>> My intuition says she wants to be with a man who's more in charge of >>> her, more powerful, a senior at work, etc., etc. Very basic and very [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Yeah- well she never made me feel like I wasn't any of those things. > But I guess not enough... No, because you're blaming yourself, and it sounds like the problem lies within HER. > >>> My intuition says she wants to be with a man who's more in charge of > >>> her, more powerful, a senior at work, etc., etc. Very basic and very [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > No, because you're blaming yourself, and it sounds like the problem lies > within HER. Now here I would disagree. It is *very* rare for a breakup to be caused by only one partner. Most of us, once we really look at what happened, find that we played our part. And is important to look at this, because otherwise history tends to repeat itself. Besides, how can he ever trust another relationship if he doesn't figure out what went wrong here? Even if everything seemed good, he couldn't trust it, because everything seemed good last time. > > >>> My intuition says she wants to be with a man who's more in charge of > > >>> her, more powerful, a senior at work, etc., etc. Very basic and very [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Well, I think alot of times, someone is more willing to put themselves out there and is SLAMMED by the other person. Well, if he asks he could find out what went wrong here, but it sounds like he's too afraid of being vulnerable. And it sounds like he may have tricked her to try to hurt her. And it sounds like from former posts that he even did her harm just to get her "caught". It depends on who you are in her life though. If you're 25 years older than her. Or if you don't really truly know her in person. Or if she hasn't expressed friendship interest or other interest in you, that could be a problem. I can see how it could be easy for someone to "pose" as someone else to trick someone. Especially old loves that see their future as impossible because of how they look in others eyes. I think some people place spirituality names on things that actually mean that they just care too much about what people think. > Well, if he asks he could find out what went wrong here, but it sounds > like he's too afraid of being vulnerable. And it sounds like he may > have tricked her to try to hurt her. And it sounds like from former > posts that he even did her harm just to get her "caught". You're confusing me... I'm not sure how you are interpreting all of my posts, but I think you're wrong. I didn't try to trick her or harm her in any way! I wasn't trying to get her "caught" in any way. I *have* been open and vulnerable our entire relationship, including up until last weekend. This is the first time I've hesitated about confronting her on anything- this is the worst thing a person can do to another from an emotional standpoint, no? And I *just* found this out a few days ago. > > >>> My intuition says she wants to be with a man who's more in charge of > > >>> her, more powerful, a senior at work, etc., etc. Very basic and very [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I don't think history repeats itself. Except....in history. On Apr 17, 2:23 pm, lifeinamir...@gmail.com wrote: > > > >>> My intuition says she wants to be with a man who's more in charge of > > > >>> her, more powerful, a senior at work, etc., etc. Very basic and very [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > I don't think history repeats itself. Except....in history. Well, hopefully therapy will help me deal with the next relationship better down the road. Though I think I handled the first marriage pretty well- I was devoted, honest, hard working, vulnerable and loving towards her. Even after leaving- my wife has told me how good a husband I was, not to toot my own horn or anything. The problem wasn't what I did- it's what she wants out of life now. > Well, hopefully therapy will help me deal with the next relationship > better down the road. Though I think I handled the first marriage > pretty well- I was devoted, honest, hard working, vulnerable and > loving towards her. Even after leaving- my wife has told me how > good a husband I was, not to toot my own horn or anything. The > problem wasn't what I did- it's what she wants out of life now. ----------------- It seems to me that "lifeinamirror" is coming late to your story and has not adequately digested the many posts in which you discuss how you've tried to accomodate her needs, tried to get her to join you in counselling, and how she's deceived and betrayed you. To express judgments that reflect more a personal POV rather than a complete understanding, IMHO, is not helpful. Nontheless, some second guesing is inevitable and eventually, as time heals your raw emotions, you will become more reflective. It was, for me, several months B4 I was able to look back and acknowledge that my ex needed something in our marriage that I could not or did not provide, part of which was a failing of mine, and the other part of which there was nothing I could have done differently. Was there stuff that I would have done differently. Sure, but in a way, marriages handcuff us to who we are in that relationship. For me, it took a divorce to free me from myself, to give me the room to redefine who I was and to grow as a person. The best we can do in times like these, it not miss that opportunity. =R= > Was there stuff that I would have done differently. Sure, but in > a way, marriages handcuff us to who we are in that relationship. > For me, it took a divorce to free me from myself, to give me the > room to redefine who I was and to grow as a person. The best > we can do in times like these, it not miss that opportunity. =R= That's good advice. Right now I feel trapped though, not free- is that strange? >> Was there stuff that I would have done differently. Sure, but in >> a way, marriages handcuff us to who we are in that relationship. >> For me, it took a divorce to free me from myself, to give me the >> room to redefine who I was and to grow as a person. The best >> we can do in times like these, it not miss that opportunity. =R= > That's good advice. Right now I feel trapped though, not free - > is that strange? Not at all. You are still tied to the marriage, which, even though clearly dead, still has its steely claws dug deep. But as you move on down the road, they will slip away. Just give it time. =R= >>>>>> My intuition says she wants to be with a man who's more in charge of >>>>>> her, more powerful, a senior at work, etc., etc. Very basic and very >>>>>> common. >> >>>>> I am not sure the part "in charge of her" fits... :) I suspect it's >>>>> many older men are proven, we're confident, assertive, even tempered and >>>>> comfortable in our own skin which comes across as incharge of our >>>>> surroundings. I think many younger women come to realize that being >>>>> "ontop" or in control over any man isn't their idea of a real man. Real >>>>> men are suppose to lead... course that's from one that does:) >>>>> -- [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > I don't think history repeats itself. Except....in history. It's repeating itself as we speak in Iraq. I'm soooo totally impressed, with how much we have learned ... from the lessons of history. It's just sooo mind boggling! Viva Le Nouveau Age De Enlightenmente.... with especial kudos to Bush, Jr, and Rumsfield. > > > My intuition says she wants to be with a man who's more in charge of > > > her, more powerful, a senior at work, etc., etc. Very basic and very [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Yeah- well she never made me feel like I wasn't any of those things. > But I guess not enough... Dave, it's partly structural, somehow. No matter how you and your personality might have been good for her - and she loved you for them - the marriage itself might have created some kind of power balance that she wanted to change (in fact, I don't know your wife, of course, she could be seeking almost anything, in terms of dynamics in a relationship). Please try not to take it as a comment on your actual personality or how you do things - but people do look up (or down) at others for reasons that are entirely in the lookers' head. A. On Apr 16, 3:00 pm, "Atalanta, O.G." <atalanta.brillia...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > My intuition says she wants to be with a man who's more in charge of > > > > her, more powerful, a senior at work, etc., etc. Very basic and very [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Like chocolate on their pants? > Yeah- well she never made me feel like I wasn't any of those things. > But I guess not enough... She wouldn't - she's just feels something lacking that maybe grows stronger with time, or hasn't a clue early on - then notices something different in another man. I am not saying this to be cocky, egotistical or to put you down in any manner - I am saying it because that's the way I behave and many single and married women have commented on it. What's also been said of me is my demeanor to some comes off as to powerful or controlling; those women tend to be overly aggressive, controlling types that like a softer more timid man that is willing to give way to the woman driving the ship. It's strictly a matter of picking the person that knows what they want in a spouse and knows what they are as a man. All to often, younger women and men meeting in their 20's even 30's don't know. SignatureSD:) > > My intuition says she wants to be with a man who's more in charge of > > her, more powerful, a senior at work, etc., etc. Very basic and very [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > SD:) I had read the original post as the woman getting involved with someone who in fact was her senior (higher in the hierarchy) at work. Whether or not Dave's wife did this, the case I was referring to in which the exact same thing happened 2 years ago to a good friend's kid - that's exactly what happened. The woman ran off with a man who was, literally, in charge of her at work. I agree with you that sometimes young women enjoy attempting to be on top of or controlling over their partners, especially peer-age partners, and they come to realize they want some leadership, at which point. Prof. Indiana Jones seems a good selection and off they go. A. > Prof. Indiana Jones seems a good selection and off they go. Yeah... dats me -LOL and I am proud of it... love Adreneline activities; more so love controlling my adrenaline and fighting distraction, while many men don't. What's grew surprising to me is just how many men that harbor fears of sort; and its not known early on, but shows its ugly face in a number of subtle behaviors or activities over time. SignatureSD:) On Apr 16, 2:59 pm, "Atalanta, O.G." <atalanta.brillia...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > My intuition says she wants to be with a man who's more in charge of > > > her, more powerful, a senior at work, etc., etc. Very basic and very [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > A. I'm personally NOT attracted to older men. But, everyone's different I guess. At the most I'd be attracted to someone 10 years older than me, even then I'm quite picky. If you are an older man looking for a younger woman, I'd look for the ones that are looking for material things rather than love. Or obviously find someone your age. I've never been that way, but I'm sure there are plenty that are. On Apr 17, 11:18 am, lifeinamir...@gmail.com wrote: > On Apr 16, 2:59 pm, "Atalanta, O.G." <atalanta.brillia...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > I'm personally NOT attracted to older men. But, everyone's different > I guess. That's a pretty good guess. No one implied that all women are attracted to older men - not by a long shot. But women who run off with men 24 years their senior - they're rather different than ones who don't. In several ways. That was the point. At the most I'd be attracted to someone 10 years older than > me, even then I'm quite picky. If you are an older man looking for a > younger woman, I'd look for the ones that are looking for material > things rather than love. Or obviously find someone your age. I've > never been that way, but I'm sure there are plenty that are. I'm not sure how your own preferences are relevant. I think about 15-20% of the women I know who are in their 20's and 30's are attracted to men who are 10 or more years older than themselves, with younger women (under 27 let's say, less so) and women in their thirties more so. That means that older men, if they persist, can get some reinforcement, occasionally, for pursuing younger women - and I"d say that more than 15% of the unmarried 45-60 year old men I know are definitely interested in women more than 10 years younger than themselves. A. On Apr 17, 3:05 pm, "Atalanta, O.G." <atalanta.brillia...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Apr 17, 11:18 am, lifeinamir...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > A. That makes sense. But it doesn't mean I don't see this guy as a sleaze. /snip/ > My intuition says she wants to be with a man who's more in charge of > her, more powerful, a senior at work, etc., etc. Very basic and very > common. > > A. Older men know how to satisfy a younger woman. > /snip/ > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Older men know how to satisfy a younger woman. Um, yeah... thanks for that. > > /snip/ > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Um, yeah... thanks for that. LOL... well, the *best* relationship I've ever had, as far as connectedness, etc (*lots* of etc ;-) was with a man 18 years older. But then, he was also a man who'd put a lot of time and effort into knowing, loving, and appreciating women for who they are, rather than expecting them to be there for his every whim. Kitten On Apr 17, 9:12 pm, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe <st_brigids_gate_f...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > /snip/ > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Kitten Okay. But I still probably will never understand this... And I'll never understand why she lied. >On Apr 17, 9:12 pm, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe ><st_brigids_gate_f...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >Okay. But I still probably will never understand this... And I'll >never understand why she lied. The older man stuff is kind of irrelevant, I think. Why she lied is because she wasn't brave enough to tell the truth and face the consequences, both of hurting you (in a different way than she'd hurt you already) and of facing her own behavior/choices. That's actually pretty easy to understand, if not to justify. > >On Apr 17, 9:12 pm, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe > ><st_brigids_gate_f...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > you already) and of facing her own behavior/choices. That's actually > pretty easy to understand, if not to justify. Do any of you think it's worth confronting her about this? Is it better to wait? I swear I want to believe what she wrote to me on Sunday...that she really isn't seeing anyone. >> >On Apr 17, 9:12 pm, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe >> ><st_brigids_gate_f...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > better to wait? I swear I want to believe what she wrote to me on > Sunday...that she really isn't seeing anyone. Confronting? No. Perhaps you could just respond to these types of things with something like, "I'm not really interested with what you are doing with your life now, except as it pertains to the divorce settlement." or some such. FWIW, while I can understand why she wouldn't tell you there was someone else, I do think it's very bizarre that she would go out of her way to tell you there *isn't*. Zorra > >> >On Apr 17, 9:12 pm, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe > >> ><st_brigids_gate_f...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Zorra Exactly- without me even assuming that in March, she told me she had never cheated. As of sunday she told me she was "alone." That's why I wonder if it's worth confronting her- I'm basing a (possible) life decision on 2 emails. I should know the actual truth- which I can only get from her, right? I would get the truth...that's what I would get out of this, hopefully. >> "Dave G" <dg_g...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Exactly- without me even assuming that in March, she told me she had > never cheated. As of sunday she told me she was "alone." That's why I > wonder if it's worth confronting her- I'm basing a (possible) life > decision on 2 emails. Maybe I'm missing something. Could you please tell me specifically what decision you are basing on these two e-mails? As a second question, in what way would your life be different one year from now, if you do or do not confront her? I should know the actual truth- which I can only > get from her, right? I would get the truth...that's what I would get > out of this, hopefully. > Maybe I'm missing something. Could you please tell me specifically what > decision you are basing on these two e-mails? I did not want to be the one to file for divroce- I was holding out a fraction of hope, regardless of how she felt, of a reconciliation. So I suppose my decision would be to cut her loose, even as a friend. I can't see being friends with her if she betrayed me in this way. If this is true, I want to be the one to file. But I want to know the truth from her directly. > As a second question, in what way would your life be different one year from > now, if you do or do not confront her? I guess it's possible we could have a good friendship a year from now. What's more valuable than that? We were a very close couple- friends and otherwise. > I should know the actual truth- which I can only > > > get from her, right? I would get the truth...that's what I would get > > out of this, hopefully. > >> >On Apr 17, 9:12 pm, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe > >> ><st_brigids_gate_f...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > someone else, I do think it's very bizarre that she would go out of > her way to tell you there *isn't*. Under normal circumstances I might agree with you about this! But Dave's wife has been really clear that she is moving on and that the marriage is over. And Dave has been unable to accept that and continues to believe that she owes him something and that she simply can't end their marriage like this, and that their relationship isn't over. If I was Mrs Dave, I would be a little bit afraid. I would very much want to avoid confrontation with Dave. So I don't find it necessarily so bizarre, given Dave's behavior. >> FWIW, while I can understand why she wouldn't tell you there was >> someone else, I do think it's very bizarre that she would go out of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > So I don't find it necessarily so bizarre, given Dave's behavior. See, it seems like the opposite to me. If I was sure I never wanted my hubby back, I'd probably take a "I've moved on, why don't you?" kind of tack. If there were kids involved, I might try to hide an affair/new relationship for that reason. But it almost seems like she's trying to keep her toe in the back door. Like she's vested for some reason in having him think she's not a bad person. And I think Dave's behavior has been spectacular given the sucker punch she gave him. Zorra > >> FWIW, while I can understand why she wouldn't tell you there was > >> someone else, I do think it's very bizarre that she would go out of [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > my hubby back, I'd probably take a "I've moved on, why don't you?" > kind of tack. This reminds of those conversations "why didn't you ever tell me you don't like having dinner with the Joneses?" "But I did, over and over!" I think that _is_ the tack Mrs Dave is taking. I just think it is so hard for Dave that he is resisting seeing it. > See, it seems like the opposite to me. If I was sure I never wanted > my hubby back, I'd probably take a "I've moved on, why don't you?" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Zorra Thank you Zorra. I'm surprised I'm functioning normally actually- I guess you never know what you can handle until it happens... The most consistent side effect I've noticed is not sleeping well, even with supplements to help me sleep. 4-5 hrs a night most of the time, sometimes if I'm lucky 6. > I'm surprised I'm functioning normally actually- I guess > you never know what you can handle until it happens... Look at it this way: At least now you don't have to negotiate what to set the themostat at, who gets to watch what on TV, what music is played or how loud it is, nor have to justify trips to Home Depot. There are advantages. BTW, if I did not say this B4 (can't remember), make a hard copy of that e-mail and wait until the settlement's been signed or final hearing held, then show it to her and ask, "I'm curious about something... Could you tell me waht you neant by "..." when you were saying "...?" =R= > > I'm surprised I'm functioning normally actually- I guess > > you never know what you can handle until it happens... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > what music is played or how loud it is, nor have to justify > trips to Home Depot. There are advantages. Hah. Yeah there' some things that I can see that way- but 99 percent of the time I was happy. > BTW, if I did not say this B4 (can't remember), make a > hard copy of that e-mail and wait until the settlement's been > signed or final hearing held, then show it to her and ask, > "I'm curious about something... Could you tell me waht you > neant by "..." when you were saying "...?" =R= Good idea.. but I was hoping for a confrontation sooner than August (the earliest I can file). >> See, it seems like the opposite to me. If I was sure I never >> wanted [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > even with supplements to help me sleep. 4-5 hrs a night most of the > time, sometimes if I'm lucky 6. I'm sorry to hear this. I have sleep problems too, and it makes everything hard. I've never been in this situation, so I don't have any advice for you, but I do have great confidence that you will come through this just fine, and in a few years will be in a much better place than you would have been if she had never left. Zorra > Do any of you think it's worth confronting her about this? Is it > better to wait? I swear I want to believe what she wrote to me on > Sunday...that she really isn't seeing anyone. Not me. What would you get out of such a confrontation? >> Do any of you think it's worth confronting her about this? Is it >> better to wait? I swear I want to believe what she wrote to me on >> Sunday...that she really isn't seeing anyone. > > Not me. What would you get out of such a confrontation? Possibly for her to finally admit the truth? If there never is a confrontation (or some other kind of intense discussion), will she ever admit it? And she *should* admit it - the truth. But why would she, if she isn't being "forced" to be held accountable for it? Or to at least ADMIT it to him? >> Do any of you think it's worth confronting her about this? Is it >> better to wait? I swear I want to believe what she wrote to me on >> Sunday...that she really isn't seeing anyone. > >Not me. What would you get out of such a confrontation? Agreed. Whatever short-term satisfaction you get out of the confrontation could work against your long-term interest -- getting the most advantageous divorce settlement (Roger has already mentioned this). Most of us providing this counsel have gone through divorces ourselves, by the way -- so we understand your motivation. We also understand that some of the things we think will make us feel better at this early stage of separation and divorce are exactly the wrong things, in retrospect. I think the best thing you can do right now is focus on the business side of splitting up this "partnership." Barb > Agreed. Whatever short-term satisfaction you get out of the > confrontation could work against your long-term interest -- getting [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > at this early stage of separation and divorce are exactly the wrong > things, in retrospect. Fortunately, the business side of this is pretty simple. No house, no kids, no big shared assets. We've already split the savings into our own accounts, and she's taken what she wants. When we moved last year, we sold our house, got rid of a lot of stuff-so there's not much to split. The "best" divorce settlement should be pretty simple. > >> Do any of you think it's worth confronting her about this? Is it > >> better to wait? I swear I want to believe what she wrote to me on [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > at this early stage of separation and divorce are exactly the wrong > things, in retrospect. It is also my experience that asking your ex what went wrong isn't very helpful. They don't know either. And they are spinning everything in their head to be the good guy too. *I* had to do the work of figuring out what happened. What I found was that my main error was in who I chose. I had to learn why I picked someone like that and how to stop doing that. I needed the help of a good therapist in this. > > >On Apr 17, 9:12 pm, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe > > ><st_brigids_gate_f...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > better to wait? I swear I want to believe what she wrote to me on > Sunday...that she really isn't seeing anyone. I imagine you will ignore this since you really didn't want to hear it in the other threads you started about your marriage, but here goes anyway. Sad though it may be, your marriage is over. Your wife has been very clear about the fact that she no longer wants to be in a relationship with you. There is nothing to confront her about. At this point, she can see other people or not - it is up to her. > > > >On Apr 17, 9:12 pm, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe > > > ><st_brigids_gate_f...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > There is nothing to confront her about. At this point, she can see > other people or not - it is up to her. I realize this- she can if she wants to. I'm sure you all realize how quickly this has happened to me- it's hard to just let go, especially without knowing the absolute truth. If I can get that from her at some point soon, I want it.. > > > > >On Apr 17, 9:12 pm, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe > > > > ><st_brigids_gate_f...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > without knowing the absolute truth. If I can get that from her at some > point soon, I want it.. Honestly, at this point I think you are more likely to get at the absolute truth about why your marriage ended by going to a therapist (on your own) with that question. If I was your wife, I would know that whatever I tell you, you will try to argue with me to convince me not to leave. Since I wouldn't want to do that, my inclination would be to tell you as little as possible. > > > > > >On Apr 17, 9:12 pm, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe > > > > > ><st_brigids_gate_f...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > want to do that, my inclination would be to tell you as little as > possible. You could be right- but I hadnt' planned on trying to get her to come back. I thought if that ever happened, she'd would have to be the one to initiate it. What I wanted was to stay friends- and it's not what I want to do with someone who would lie so blatantly. As far as a therapist- I started the week this happened. > > > > > > >On Apr 17, 9:12 pm, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe > > > > > > ><st_brigids_gate_f...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > to initiate it. What I wanted was to stay friends- and it's not what I > want to do with someone who would lie so blatantly. The way I interpret things, your wife is really just out of your relationship. She doesn't care about remaining friends, or even acquaintances. She may say she does to spare your feelings or to avoid confrontation since she realizes that even though she is out of the relationship, you aren't yet. > As far as a therapist- I started the week this happened. Excellent. Have you tried to ask the therapist to help you gain insight into what went wrong with your marriage? > Excellent. Have you tried to ask the therapist to help you gain > insight into what went wrong with your marriage? Yeah- but she can't really answer that without my wife being in therapy together. What's wrong is one of us wanted to stay and work it out, one of us did not. One of us wanted children, one did not. Right now I think can take responsiblity for troubles in the marriage, sure- but not in the collapse of it. > > Excellent. Have you tried to ask the therapist to help you gain > > insight into what went wrong with your marriage? > > Yeah- but she can't really answer that without my wife being in > therapy together. Not completely, no. But if she can't eventually give you some ideas, you might want to consider another therapist > What's wrong is one of us wanted to stay and work it > out, one of us did not. Well, that is true, but it isn't really what went wrong, right? After all, it is the things that needed to be "worked out" that have to do with what was wrong. >One of us wanted children, one did not. Yes. That particular problem really can't be worked out, unfortunately. > Right > now I think can take responsiblity for troubles in the marriage, sure- > but not in the collapse of it. > Not completely, no. But if she can't eventually give you some ideas, > you might want to consider another therapist Isn't it possible that there are no answers? It'd be nice to think there were... but maybe it wasn't going to work regardless of what I or we did. > > Not completely, no. But if she can't eventually give you some ideas, > > you might want to consider another therapist > > Isn't it possible that there are no answers? Well, the answers you get depend on the questions you ask. One question you are asking is "what could I have done." But there are other good questions. Examples: "Why did I choose to marry someone who didn't want children?" "How could I have been unaware of her moving away from me and our marriage?" "What qualities does she have that are so important to me that I want to save the marriage even though we disagree about kids, and she is no longer interested?" "Why is it so important to me to believe that she isn't involved with someone else at this point?" Etc. > Well, the answers you get depend on the questions you ask. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Examples: "Why did I choose to marry someone who didn't want > children?" She told me for 8 years that she *did* want children. > "How could I have been unaware of her moving away from me and our > marriage?" I will get into that- I'm sure. > "What qualities does she have that are so important to me that I want > to save the marriage even though we disagree about kids, and she is no > longer interested?" A bit of hope that she would change her mind- I know others who have. What qualities did she have? A hell of a lot- she was a loving wife, warm in bed, a great cook, encouraged me to do great in my career, ambitious in her own career and smart in pursuing things that would benefit us both (buying a house, movign to a better city), liked doing the same things as I did, was genuinely excited to be with me every night, open to loving me regardless of our relgious differences early on (I'm jewish, she's christian), and for all these years- interested in a family when we got to be around 30. > "Why is it so important to me to believe that she isn't involved with > someone else at this point?" Jealousy I guess, I know that's not healthy. 10 weeks ago she was saying things to me she's now saying to someone else. > Etc. >> Well, the answers you get depend on the questions you ask. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > She told me for 8 years that she *did* want children. I hope this isn't something you've decided was a lie. If people can change their minds over a period of years and decide to have children (e.g. me) they can certainly decide they don't want them. They can also decide they are with someone with whom the idea of having children is unthinkable, especially if they are already thinking about leaving their spouse. I have no idea which category your wife is in and she may not know this fully, herself. Tai > > Not completely, no. But if she can't eventually give you some ideas, > > you might want to consider another therapist > > Isn't it possible that there are no answers? It'd be nice to think > there were... but maybe it wasn't going to work regardless of what I > or we did. Don't mean to be accusatory, but it seems you are a very pessimistic person that is pessimistic before it even starts. You want something you believe you cannot have. You want something, and you can't have it. THAT is when you really want it. You want something and then you CAN have it, and then you don't want it anymore. You like wanting someone that doesn't want you. You like the chase. That's what you like. And so maybe she'll go. And you can chase her or leave her. That's the answer. You can't be satisfied. You might have found love but you couldn't accept it. > Don't mean to be accusatory, but it seems you are a very pessimistic > person that is pessimistic before it even starts. You want something [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That's the answer. You can't be satisfied. You might have found love > but you couldn't accept it. Well, I might be pessimistic now. But I've actually always been very optimistic to be honest. I think overall you're wrong in your analysis there. I dont' like chasing anything. I did accept love. And for 8 years, I was satisfied. It'll take more than a few weeks for me to just become "satisfied" again I think. The reason I think there might be no answers is- maybe there really wasnt' anythink I could do. I gave her my heart and soul, time and love, and she still left. >> Not completely, no. But if she can't eventually give you some ideas, >> you might want to consider another therapist > >Isn't it possible that there are no answers? It'd be nice to think >there were... but maybe it wasn't going to work regardless of what I >or we did. It's more likely there are answers -- and that you'll never fully know them. In a way, the pursuit of knowing why is a way of holding on to the relationship. You may find that as your emotional bond fades, you'll have less interest in this. Barb > > > Excellent. Have you tried to ask the therapist to help you gain > > > insight into what went wrong with your marriage? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Did she say she didn't want children? > Did she say she didn't want children? Not until this year- up until last December we talked about starting this summer. > > Did she say she didn't want children? > > Not until this year- up until last December we talked about starting > this summer. How long did you say you'd been dating? Why'd you wanna start so soon. Did you want to nail her down? Meant in the nicest of terms meaning, is that your proof she won't cheat again? > > > Did she say she didn't want children? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > soon. Did you want to nail her down? Meant in the nicest of terms > meaning, is that your proof she won't cheat again? I have no idea what you're talking about...in just about any of those posts. Thanks though. We dated for 3 years, were married for 5 1/2 years (guess it'll end up being 6). > The older man stuff is kind of irrelevant, I think. Irrelevant, and often not true. I have never once been attracted to a man more than a couple of years older than me (not counting Sean Connery and Harrison Ford!). All of my boyfriends and attractions have been within 2-3 years older, to sometimes many years younger. Zorra >> The older man stuff is kind of irrelevant, I think. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Zorra LOL! Sean Connery??? But Sean Connery is waaaaay too old for you, and most everybody in here. You've GOT to be kidding! >>> The older man stuff is kind of irrelevant, I think. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > you, > and most everybody in here. You've GOT to be kidding! Maybe, but he held up better into old age then Harrison Ford has! And is it really wrong for me to have crushes on both him and Orlando Bloom? Zorra > >> The older man stuff is kind of irrelevant, I think. > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > LOL! Sean Connery??? But Sean Connery is waaaaay too old for you, > and most everybody in here. You've GOT to be kidding! I absolutely adored Sean Connery... until he admitted to hitting his wife. Just ruined it for me. Kitten >> >> The older man stuff is kind of irrelevant, I think. >> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I absolutely adored Sean Connery... until he admitted to hitting his > wife. Just ruined it for me. Now, I didn't hear that. I was basing it completely on those good looks of his! But now you've ruined it for me too. I'm afraid to tell you who else I like! ;-) Zorra Well I just want to say that I really feel for you in what your going through, and its situations like these that make me nervous about getting older and committing to someone. Its like you cant trust anyone these days, besides your own family, and sometimes even thats difficult. What has happened to the morals of the world? I think that your wife should'nt have even gotten involved in this relationship if there was even the slightest thought of a disagreement about children. Its really interesting to think back over the decades how relationships have evolved. Now theres more adultry and lies than ever. Imagine how hard it would be on the next generation to come for relationships. I dont know. I may be wrong in anything I'm saying. But I really do feel for you buddy. > Well I just want to say that I really feel for you in what your going > through, and its situations like these that make me nervous about > getting older and committing to someone. Its like you cant trust > anyone these days, besides your own family, and sometimes even thats > difficult. What has happened to the morals of the world? Can I answer that?? Let me know when you're ready. > Well I just want to say that I really feel for you in what your going > through, and its situations like these that make me nervous about > getting older and committing to someone. Its like you cant trust > anyone these days, besides your own family, and sometimes even thats > difficult. It's true that there are no guarantees, except that we will all die someday. With that in mind, how do you want to live? In a defensive crouch? Bill can tell you how delightful that is. > > Well I just want to say that I really feel for you in what your going > > through, and its situations like these that make me nervous about [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > someday. With that in mind, how do you want to live? In a defensive > crouch? Bill can tell you how delightful that is. Well, I want to live well- which is why I got married to someone I felt would be a great partner to begin with. I probably just need a long time to recover- I tend to move slowly in general so I don't expect an immediate bounce back. >> Well I just want to say that I really feel for you in what your going >> through, and its situations like these that make me nervous about [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > someday. With that in mind, how do you want to live? In a defensive > crouch? Bill can tell you how delightful that is. What is a "defensive crouch"? On Apr 19, 2:00 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> Well I just want to say that I really feel for you in what your going > >> through, and its situations like these that make me nervous about [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > What is a "defensive crouch"? I think shes talking about being overly precautious, and no I wont live my life like that. hell no haha. but its just a scary thought. and go ahead bill answer away haha. > On Apr 19, 2:00 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > live my life like that. hell no haha. but its just a scary thought. > and go ahead bill answer away haha. I guess some could say that, then. I'll probably have to plead the 5th on that one. On Apr 19, 4:00 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> Well I just want to say that I really feel for you in what your going > >> through, and its situations like these that make me nervous about [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > What is a "defensive crouch"? What I refuse to do. <shrug> Kitten > On Apr 19, 4:00 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Kitten Come again? On Apr 19, 6:49 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > On Apr 19, 4:00 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Come again? Are you being facetious? A. > On Apr 19, 6:49 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> >> Come again? > > Are you being facetious? It's the vibrator sub-thread, Bill's all at sixes and nines.... :)) Tai > It's the vibrator sub-thread, Bill's all at sixes and nines.... :)) I will now have to go bleach my brain, after the image that flashed into my head when you meantion the words- Bill, Six and Nine in one sentence. >> It's the vibrator sub-thread, Bill's all at sixes and nines.... :)) > > I will now have to go bleach my brain, after the image that flashed > into my head when you meantion the words- Bill, Six and Nine in one > sentence. <evil laughter> Tai >>> It's the vibrator sub-thread, Bill's all at sixes and nines.... :)) >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Tai A longtime lurker who just has to 'come out' to express herself: LMAO!!!!!!!! > > Well I just want to say that I really feel for you in what your going > > through, and its situations like these that make me nervous about [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > someday. With that in mind, how do you want to live? In a defensive > crouch? Bill can tell you how delightful that is. Who's Bill? >>> Well I just want to say that I really feel for you in what your going >>> through, and its situations like these that make me nervous about [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Who's Bill? Bill is over here. On Apr 23, 2:29 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>> Well I just want to say that I really feel for you in what your going > >>> through, and its situations like these that make me nervous about [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Bill is over here. In Colorado? > On Apr 23, 2:29 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > In Colorado? Indeed, or at least as I recollect. Just a minute, let me check... Yup, still in CO! >>> >> The older man stuff is kind of irrelevant, I think. >>> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Zorra http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=652&id=1991682005 >>>>Speculation about Connery's supposedly rough treatment of his first wife >>>>was sparked by two separate comments given to magazine interviews. In >>>>1965 he told Playboy: "I don't think there is anything particularly >>>>wrong in hitting a woman, though I don't recommend you do it the same >>>>way that you hit a man." In another interview, this time with Vanity Fair in 1993, he said: "Sometimes there are women who take it to the wire. That's what they are looking for, the ultimate confrontation. They want a smack." >>>>> He says the comments were "taken out of context". I don't see how they could have any context. Sheila >>>> >> The older man stuff is kind of irrelevant, I think. >>>> > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > He says the comments were "taken out of context". I don't see how > they could have any context. Sheesh, yep -- totally ruined.... Zorra >>>>>> The older man stuff is kind of irrelevant, I think. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > He says the comments were "taken out of context". I don't see how > they could have any context. I think I see one. There are people of both sexes who force confrontations to the point of physical violence. I don't think anyone would say that women are never violent nor that they never are the first to strike an opponent. Anyone, man or women, is entitled to protect themselves in a physical attack and use some reasonable level of force to do that. That's how I read the quote from 1965, anyway, and it seems to me he was suggesting a lesser amount of force would be appropriate. Also, I'm reading his "They want a smack" not in the sense that he thinks they (some small percentage of very dysfunctional women) deserve one or that just because they want one they should get one but in the sense that getting their opponent to lose control and strike out physically rather than verbally will gain something for them - it will win them the argument in a moral sense. Or something like that! (I have no knowledge of whether Connery ever hit a women, in self-defence or otherwise.) Tai > I think I see one. There are people of both sexes who force > confrontations to the point of physical violence. I don't think anyone [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > (I have no knowledge of whether Connery ever hit a women, in > self-defence or otherwise.) See the video link I just posted to Zorra. He was not talking about in self-defense at all. >>> LOL! Sean Connery??? But Sean Connery is waaaaay too old >>> for you, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Now, I didn't hear that. http://digg.com/lbv.php?id=946811&ord=1 This is the video of the interview where he explains when hitting a woman is merited. >>> /snip/ >>>> My intuition says she wants to be with a man who's more in charge of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > knowing, loving, and appreciating women for who they are, rather than > expecting them to be there for his every whim. Lest the younger set be disheartened, the best sex I've ever had was with a guy who was a barely-18 college freshman when we started dating. > Lest the younger set be disheartened, the best sex I've ever had > was with a guy who was a barely-18 college freshman when we > started dating. Robbing the craddle, eh? Guess he must'a aced the sex-ed class. >> Lest the younger set be disheartened, the best sex I've ever had >> was with a guy who was a barely-18 college freshman when we >> started dating. > Robbing the craddle, eh? I was but a babe in arms myself. > Guess he must'a aced the sex-ed class. LOL...yeah...just all-around precocious, I guess! And here's why brainy guys are better than jocks: Jocks can master "lick the alphabet." Brainy guys can master "lick Tale of Two Cities." I - T - W - A - S - T - H - E - B - E - S - T - O - F - T - I - M - E - S .... > Jocks can master "lick the alphabet." > Brainy guys can master "lick Tale of Two Cities." > > I - T - W - A - S - T - H - E - B - E - S - T - O - F - T - I - M - E - > S .... DrLith scores again! >>>> /snip/ >>>>> My intuition says she wants to be with a man who's more in charge [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > with a guy who was a barely-18 college freshman when we started > dating. <tea snort> I'm guessing your darling husband doesn't make a habit of browsing your posting history! Tai >> Lest the younger set be disheartened, the best sex I've ever had was >> with a guy who was a barely-18 college freshman when we started [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'm guessing your darling husband doesn't make a habit of browsing your > posting history! It was my evil twin who said that! > > /snip/ > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Um, yeah... thanks for that. LOL! Never mind that. The best sex I have ever had is with my H, who is three years younger then I am. Some people have the talent and put in the effort and others don't - even if they have had many more years to practice. On Apr 15, 1:17 pm, "Atalanta, O.G." <atalanta.brillia...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hopefully some of you remember my situation. I moved to DC with my > > wife of 5 years last summer. For 8 years we've been attached at the [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I think Atlanta O.G. is trying to trick someone, you are a TRICKY southern guy. >This was also revealing something- if she was ready for me to date, >she must be ready to go on dates herself. Well, I found out this [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >same time. When I thought she was leaving for different reasons- I >wanted to stay friends. Now,I don't want to see her again. Well, not to say I told you so, but... I think I said earlier on, there's more to this than you know, and it's probably someone else. Although I possibly said it more tactfully. :-) She's not going to change her mind, and if she does, would you really want her back? For how long, until the next infatuation comes along? It IS liberating, although it's also hurtful and miserable. You know where you stand now, so you can start the process of moving on. |
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