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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / July 2007Can we make it?
This is the first time I am facing this kind of situation. I met a guy online; we share the same common problem. Our spouses are alcoholics. We are very unhappy in our marriages, we want to get out. We developed a bond and special kind of friendship. We are planning to get a divorce and be w/each other. Even though we never met, living in separate states, our common problems pulled us together. We understood and sympathized, we laughed and cried. We stayed in the dysfunctional marriage for the same length of time for the same reasons. We have fallen in love with each other... Any comments? Can we make it? What are the odds? > This is the first time I am facing this kind of situation. > I met a guy online; we share the same common problem. Our spouses are [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Any comments? Can we make it? What are the odds? Your odds seem very small to me. You have two big strikes against you: 1) you haven't met in real life, and you haven't dealth with actually being together, which is a really different thing from fantasizing about each other. Both of you have identified your spouses as problematic, and yet you have yet to learn about whatever difficult points each of you will bring to the relationship. 2) You are getting involved with someone who is deceiving and cheating on his spouse. So what makes you think this person won't do that to you? (Assuming, which is an assumption, that he is being honest to you right now.) Of course, it may be that you don't value honesty or loyalty anyway, as you yourself are cheating on and deceiving your husband. In either case, it isn't a good omen for your future together. I've never lived with an alcoholic spouse, and I'm not trying to minimize how terrible that can be, nor am I trying to say you should just accept that. But here would have been two honest courses to take: a) back when you still loved your spouse and before you'd found someone else to develop a crush on, tell your spouse: "your alcoholism is a problem, and if you don't start dealing with it, it is likely to kill our marriage." or b) I no longer want to be in a marriage with you. I realize the health of your marriage is no longer a concern of yours. But it is worth thinking about your future relationships, and how your new friend fits into the fact that you are still married. Marriagebuilders.com is full of interesting things. If you don't think you are having an affair, here is an interesting little article to read: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8501_fft.html >This is the first time I am facing this kind of situation. >I met a guy online; we share the same common problem. Our spouses are [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Any comments? Can we make it? What are the odds? It looks like another tragedy in the making. I suspect that, rather than being in love with one another, you're in love with the idea of someone who knows what you're experiencing--with the spouse you should not abandon. Can you make it? Yes, as long as neither of you develops a chemical dependency, or a serious medical condition, or financial problems, and the list goes on. Why did you each commit to a person with an unmanageable problem? Or did you each drive your respective spouse to alcoholism? Either way, your poor choice is a flaw you both have in common. Have you thought of that? What are the odds of making it? Close to zero. Marriages need to be based on positive things. You didn't mention any. You share only weaknesses. Both of you should be thinking, "Wow, if I get into real trouble of any sort, s/he will start shopping for a replacement!" It will be easier next time. I acknowledge;edge that alcoholism is a serious problem, and that sometimes we have to protect our own selves. However, I believe marriages should be defended and nurtured. Marriages are not about convenience, but making each other the best they can be! There are experts who can help the four of you! While drunkenness is not for ever, alcoholism is for ever. Fortunately, all four of you can live happy productive lives. That is what should happen period; and that is why there is no way I'll support your and his foolish scheme. On the other hand, based on your post, you both do seem to deserve one another. :-( ________________________ Whatever it takes. > >This is the first time I am facing this kind of situation. > >I met a guy online; we share the same common problem. Our spouses are [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > ________________________ > Whatever it takes. BTW...we met Alonon...tring to get help for them and us...we were not seeking a relationship... > > >This is the first time I am facing this kind of situation. > > >I met a guy online; we share the same common problem. Our spouses are [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > BTW...we met Alonon...tring to get help for them and us...we were not > seeking a relationship...- Hide quoted text - It's very easy to be attracted to someone who has been there for you, been supportive to you, during a difficult period of your life. The advice to get out on your own, become self-sufficient, and spend time getting your own head on straight before looking to see just what type of relationship you have is good advice. Don't jump from a relationship where you are the co-dependent straight into another relationship with another co-dependent person. Both of you need to take time to get healthy, then re-evaluate. Kitten > > >This is the first time I am facing this kind of situation. > > >I met a guy online; we share the same common problem. Our spouses are [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > BTW...we met Alonon...tring to get help for them and us...we were not > seeking a relationship... When you think about the kinds of places you'd be likely to meet someone compatible, a lot of people in the past would have met new folks at church - and plenty of new marriages begin as flirtations at church, too. Ask any pastor. People go to -Anon meetings and other kinds of meetings because they need the social support and companionship - it's not surprising that you'd hook up with someone who is equally disenchanted with their own relationship. Everything everyone else has said about whether your new friend and you will become closer (or fall apart) is as likely to be true as anything anyone else can say. I've seen people at church go through divorces, marry their new love, and I'd say that the success rate is about the same as for others. One time, it was the minister who ultimately divorced (and, eventually, left the ministry). He's still with the new person. You may want to realize that you're definitely giving up on marriage as you go down this path - your marriage in particular. You may need to reinvent yourself and your relationships - only you know what you are going to do and how'll you think and feel about it. But if you're thinking anything other than "I'm not thinking real clearly right now, how can I fix that?" while you're feeling and debating what you're doing - you're starting to slip off the deep end. Find someone you can trust (a pastor or an older relative or a co- worker with wisdom - someone) and start doing some reality checks. Posting anonymously here is a start - but you need real feedback from real people who care about you and your situation. Like your mom or sister or something like that. You have a lot of grieving to do, I think - and so does your friend. No one knows what's that's like for the two of you - or how to judge your actions. I fear that you, too, are losing the ability to judge your own actions - and it's crucial that you hang onto yourself, especially right now when you may be seeing yourself more clearly. If you could at all afford it, seeking short term counseling right now would be a very good thing. Good luck to you - no matter what you choose to do. You already know that as long as you stay married to an alcoholic, you'll be struggling with him against alcoholism and right now, you're tired and it feels good to have a compatriot. Only you knows how much your marriage means to you (if it still means anything) and how long you can fight the battle. I know that a lot of people in Al-Anon are folks whose spouses are still drinking or not very far into recovery. A. On Jul 21, 12:53 pm, Atalanta arctos <atalanta.brillia...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >This is the first time I am facing this kind of situation. > > > >I met a guy online; we share the same common problem. Our spouses are [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Atalanta, I thank you very much for your respond. I lost hope in my marriage a while ago; accepting was the most difficult part. I accept that no matter what I do, I will not be able to change him, I also need to protect my children. As I indicted before, we were looking to help the alchys in our lives, but came to realize, they need no help from us... Other option is, continue to live with them, and accept the dysfuntionality, but there are also children involved. My son is terrified when his dad starts to scream and verbally abuses me, my other son, stands up to his dad, and tells him to be nice to mom and not to yell at mom. This person and I are in the same situation...It is the same pain, same denial and same rejection... As I type this, I know there is no doubt in my mind that I want out of here. I can not love my husband anymore. I want to get a divorce. No doubt. I want to be in a relationship that I will be appreciated, loved, shown affection, and cared. May be some people will think that I am a horrible person for finding someone special and bounding with. May be I am, but does not feel wrong...After all, as one of the post suggested "Divorce the loser! Marry the Winner! And remember this your husband did cheat on you it was just with a substance" made a lot of sense to me...Yes, he preferred his bottle over wife and kids. That was his choice for 20 years. I did include my close family into this, and no one was surprised... Matter affect, when I though I hid it so well, they were observing it. They were aware. So, I think I like to give it a shot, and I hope we can make it, because he seems like a genuine, sweet, caring, beautiful person, who is stuck in the same vicious circle... Thank you <snipped> > So, I think I like to give it a shot, and I hope we can make it, > because he seems like a genuine, sweet, caring, beautiful person, who > is stuck in the same vicious circle... > Thank you- Just take your time. And get help with each of your co-dependency issues. That's where I'm at right now - learning how *not* to be co- dependent. Kitten On Jul 21, 5:13?pm, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe <st_brigids_gate_f...@yahoo.com> wrote: > <snipped> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Kitten Thank you Kitten I will take my time, and get to know this erson real well. No hurry. And we made a promise that, there will be no sexual rlationship unless both of us are divorced. > On Jul 21, 5:13?pm, Caitriona Mac Fhiodhbhuidhe > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > And we made a promise that, there will be no sexual rlationship unless > both of us are divorced. Heh. If my marriage continues to fail and finally dies, I'll move on. But the only person I can think of at this point in time whom I would ever trust that far would remain a good friend only. Kitten > I will take my time, and get to know this erson real well. No hurry. > And we made a promise that, there will be no sexual rlationship > unless > both of us are divorced. Is it your opinion that only sex defines cheating? > > I will take my time, and get to know this erson real well. No hurry. > > And we made a promise that, there will be no sexual rlationship > > unlessing > > both of us are divorced. > > Is it your opinion that only sex defines cheating? Good question.....Am I cheating right now? I don't know...never done this before. How do you define cheating? >> > I will take my time, and get to know this erson real well. No >> > hurry. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Good question.....Am I cheating right now? Yes. > I don't know...never done this before. > How do you define cheating? Well, there are two elements to cheating. One is having an emotional connection of a 'romantic' type with someone other than your SO, and the other is keeping it a secret. I guess the bottom line is that if you have to keep an extra marital relationship of a personal kind a secret from your SO, then most likely, it's cheating. If it wasn't cheating, then why the need to keep it a secret? > > > I will take my time, and get to know this erson real well. No hurry. > > > And we made a promise that, there will be no sexual rlationship [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I don't know...never done this before. > How do you define cheating? Yes, you are. Any intimate (physically or emotionally) relationship which you keep secret from your spouse, and which replaces some of the intimacy that you would ordinarily have with your spouse is certainly "cheating." . >> > > I will take my time, and get to know this erson real well. No >> > > hurry. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > that > you would ordinarily have with your spouse is certainly "cheating." Are you sure you want that last "and" in there Doug? If it doesn't replace some of the intimacy that you would normally have with your spouse, does that mean it's not cheating? Zorra >>>>>I will take my time, and get to know this erson real well. No >>>>>hurry. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > replace some of the intimacy that you would normally have with your > spouse, does that mean it's not cheating? I am not answering for Doug, but for me the answer is no, it's not. I don't view "cheating" in a relationship equivalent to lying. I share a kind of intimacy with my mom which is very different from what my husband and I have and want to have. If for some reason my husband didn't like her and didn't want me to see her, and I kept on the relationship behind his back, it'd be dishonest and I'd by lying to him, but I wouldn't consider it cheating -- neither would he. >>>Any intimate (physically or emotionally) relationship which you >>>keep [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the relationship behind his back, it'd be dishonest and I'd by lying > to him, but I wouldn't consider it cheating -- neither would he. Okay, I see what you're saying, but that's not quite what I was thinking about. My husband does not hug, ever, does not kiss, ever, does not compliment, well, *almost* ever, does not share dreams, or discuss philosophy, or ever, ever, ever share deep emotions. Assuming that we did not actually have sex (defined here as viewing or touching of genitalia or bringing ourselves or each other to orgasm), then I could have a truly torrid love affair with another man without ever replacing the intimacy that I would normally have with my husband. Unless he meant "normally" as defined by society rather than as defined by an individual couple? Oh, and re-reading it, I guess he said those things would certainly be cheating, but did not say that all elements had to be present for it to be considered cheating anyway. Zorra >>>>Any intimate (physically or emotionally) relationship which you >>>>keep [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >Unless he meant "normally" as defined by society rather than as >defined by an individual couple? It seems to me that it should be "intimacy that you would personally desire to share with your spouse in a happy marriage." Something like that. I mean, your husband is not a hugger, to say the least, but to you I think, ideally, that sort of affection would be part of your relationship with your spouse. I think that if you shared that intimacy with someone else, it would be infidelity. But I can also see how there's a whole range of things that could be part of marital intimacy for some people but not others, and I'm not talking so much about sex as about things like, sharing experiences or feelings or whatever. Sort of like whoever it is who says that he would never have lunch alone with a woman, whereas for me, that sort of thing has just zero to do with marital intimacy. >>My husband does not hug, ever, does not kiss, ever, does not >>compliment, well, *almost* ever, does not share dreams, or discuss [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > relationship with your spouse. I think that if you shared that > intimacy with someone else, it would be infidelity. Hmm.... Now this hardly seems fair. If I didn't want it, I could have it, but since I do, I can't? > But I can also > see how there's a whole range of things that could be part of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > has > just zero to do with marital intimacy. I just think this is something I will struggle with as long as I'm in this marriage. I will never be happy without intimacy, and yet the problems in my marriage no longer seem severe enough to separate over. I do realize I couldn't get those things with another man -- even if DH *didn't* care -- because I don't think I could stop it there without it blowing up into full-blown love. Which I guess goes back to your point of why it's cheating if it's meaningful to me, even if it isn't to my husband. Zorra >>> My husband does not hug, ever, does not kiss, ever, does not >>> compliment, well, *almost* ever, does not share dreams, or discuss [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Zorra Because it would be betraying a trust, if you depend on getting that intimacy elsewhere - I think. Well, I guess it depends on where you draw the line, but sex is clearly over it, and I think sharing *everything* with someone else, but not your spouse, would also be well over it. It's still betraying the trust that is part and parcel of a marriage, or at least should be. >>>> My husband does not hug, ever, does not kiss, ever, does not >>>> compliment, well, *almost* ever, does not share dreams, or [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Because it would be betraying a trust, if you depend on getting that > intimacy elsewhere - I think. Well, it wouldn't be betraying a trust if he knew and didn't care. > Well, I guess it depends on where you draw the line, but sex is > clearly over [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > part > and parcel of a marriage, or at least should be. Yes, "should" be but aren't always. But before I get accused by someone of having an affair again, let me point out that I only brought this up as a counter-argument to including sharing things that you would normally share with your spouse as part of the definition of cheating. Zorra >>>My husband does not hug, ever, does not kiss, ever, does not >>>compliment, well, *almost* ever, does not share dreams, or discuss [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Hmm.... Now this hardly seems fair. If I didn't want it, I could >have it, but since I do, I can't? Ironic, isn't it? ;-) >> But I can also >> see how there's a whole range of things that could be part of [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >to your point of why it's cheating if it's meaningful to me, even if >it isn't to my husband. That's exactly what I meant above... it's cheating if it's meaningful to you. I don't know, Zorra. I'm with you. I can't be happy without intimacy. To me, that would be enough of a reason to separate. But I can also see why it might not be, for you. >>Hmm.... Now this hardly seems fair. If I didn't want it, I could >>have it, but since I do, I can't? [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > I > can also see why it might not be, for you. Well, if it were *just* me, it might be. But see -- earlier I argued against the thought that one must stay married just for the sake of the kids, but the truth is that I feel that way a lot too. I mean, if I were to separate just for my own happiness, where does that leave them? That's a rhetorical question of course -- I know that there are viewpoints on both sides. I guess I just keep bumping up against the feeling that there are not good options. Zorra >>>> My husband does not hug, ever, does not kiss, ever, does not >>>> compliment, well, *almost* ever, does not share dreams, or discuss [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> Hmm.... Now this hardly seems fair. If I didn't want it, I could >> have it, but since I do, I can't? What is the "it" here? Intimacy? And how can you say if you didn't want it (whatever this "it" is), you could have it? > Ironic, isn't it? ;-) WHAT is ironic? If you didn't want intimacy you could have intimacy? I'm not following this. >>>>> My husband does not hug, ever, does not kiss, ever, does not >>>>> compliment, well, *almost* ever, does not share dreams, or [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > intimacy? > I'm not following this. LOL -- I was following Nina's logic Bill. She was saying basically that if it's something that you would expect to share exclusively with your husband, then it's cheating to share it with someone else. And conversely, if it's not something you expect to share exclusively with your spouse, then it's okay to share it with someone else. Makes sense, right? And for most marriages that includes most kinds of intimacy. But for example, some people are huggers and hug everyone, others would only hug their families. So if they were to hug someone else, it would be a big deal. So if hugging wasn't all that meaningful to me, then yeah, I could hug anyone. But since it is, I can't. Get it? Zorra > >>>>> My husband does not hug, ever, does not kiss, ever, does not > >>>>> compliment, well, *almost* ever, does not share dreams, or [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Zorra- Hide quoted text -> > - Show quoted text - I want to say something here. I too thought talking to opeesite sex on pesonal level would be some sort of cheating...In the past Now, I decided to go ahead and file for a divorce. My children understand because they don't like what they see about their dad (drinking, passing out, arrogans, etc) Now, the void I had in my life, for years, caused me deppression... I feel wonderful speaking to this person, he understands me, makes me feel special, we talk about our issues, which are very commen... I feel good about myself and feel much more healthier.... I don't know where it's going to lead, but for the time being, in this horrable time, i am not feeling so horrrible, I feel alive... Is this so wrong...His drinking affected our relationship in so many different ways...as far as I am concerned he left the marriage, he cheated with his bottle everyday... I appriciate everyones $.02 >> >>>> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:51:14 -0400, "zorra" >> >>>> <zor...@comcast.net> [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > > I appriciate everyones $.02 It's not so wrong to want to end your marriage. It's not so wrong to want to feel special to someone. It's not so wrong to want a new romance. It's terribly wrong to do all of those things in secret. If it wasn't wrong, there'd be no reason to hide. > >> >>>> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:51:14 -0400, "zorra" > >> >>>> <zor...@comcast.net> [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > > - Show quoted text - What about him drinking insteed of spending time with me or the kids....we have been a prisioners in our own home, because he "prefers"to stay home and drink...Is this right? As I indicated...He cheated on me w/his booze and many times in secret... He killed the marriage not I..I gave it more then enough try, enough begging, enough waiting... Something might or might not happen with this person...we are in different states...I would like it to happen, so says he...time will tell...but, he keeps me healthy and happy...this is what I need right now to be able to go on with this crazy time in my life... I hope you'll try to understand things from my point of view, try to be in my shoe, please >> >> >> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:09:21 -0400, "zorra" >> >> >> <zor...@comcast.net> [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] > kids....we have been a prisioners in our own home, because he > "prefers"to stay home and drink...Is this right? The kind of situation you describe is very, very wrong. > As I indicated...He cheated on me w/his booze and many times in > secret... Anyone who would do such a thing is a slime bag. > He killed the marriage not I..I gave it more then enough try, enough > begging, enough waiting... Then you should be proud of yourself for that. > Something might or might not happen with this person...we are in > different states...I would like it to happen, so says he...time will [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I hope you'll try to understand things from my point of view, try to > be in my shoe, please I do understand that you're in a horrible situation, and that you've decided to get out. But despite everything you said, it still doesn't address what I said about lying. If you're romantically attracted to this guy, and you're having a liaison with him in secret, then you're cheating regardless what your husband has or hasn't done. > What about him drinking insteed of spending time with me or the > kids....we have been a prisioners in our own home, because he [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I hope you'll try to understand things from my point of view, try to > be in my shoe, please Georgia, I'm sorry for what has happened in your marriage, and I'm glad that you found the strength to do something about it. There are many on here that have a "zero tolerance" policy for leaning on someone that you might be attracted as a source of that strength. But if we lived in an ideal world, then you wouldn't have needed to find it anyway. I wish you all the best in your new life. Take things slow, make sure you can stand on your own two feet and don't expect this other guy to rescue you. Take care of yourself and your children first. Good luck, Zorra > > What about him drinking insteed of spending time with me or the > > kids....we have been a prisioners in our own home, because he [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Zorra Thank you Zorra, I appriciate your suport > > "Georgia Sun" <NYnadia1...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 109 lines] > I hope you'll try to understand things from my point of view, try to > be in my shoe, please- I do understand, Georgia. Sometimes we need other people to give us the reality check and show us what is missing, and to give us the strength we need to do what we have to do. This man is playing that role in your life at the moment. But AllYou does make a good point: you need to be true to yourself. Someday down the line, if you are dishonest about this with your current DH, you are very likely to look back and regret it. Don't let an alcoholic force you to do something that runs against your own integrity. It's not worth it. You know what else? If you are dishonest in your marriage, your DH will be able to use that as his excuse to not get any help for his alcoholism. You will have conveniently given him an excuse to blame you - the cheater who broke his heart and left him for another man - instead of his own lousy drinking self. Far better to be honest and 100% transparent and make it 100% clear to him that you are leaving for no other reason than his drinking and his inability to take responsibility for his actions! Maybe you are too tired and worn out to care anymore, and you just want out, which I could understand, but if you can't do it for yourself, think about your children. You want to maintain your integrity in their eyes, don't you? You want them to look back on this and see that it was dad that had the problem and failed the marriage, not you, right? And you want to play this in a way that increases any chance that he will finally take notice and do something to stop his drinking. For your kids' sake. Because even if you are free and clear of this marital hell, your kids will not be free of their dad and his alcholism - EVER. They will have to deal with it when they go to dad's house for visitation. I know you just want to run away and close this chapter forever after... but while you may be able to do that, your kids can't. You are going to have to co-parent with this man the rest of your life. You are not going to be happy in your new life if you know your kids are at dad's and he may be drinking and driving and passing out and putting them in jeopardy. There's only so much you can control, of course, but one thing you can control is the manner in which you leave this marriage. It is far better to leave with your integrity intact, because then he will have zero excuse to pile all the blame on to your shoulders as the cheating homewrecker, etc. What's more, it is quite common for children to blame the first significant other that comes along after a divorce. You greatly increase the chances that your kids will blame and come to resent this new man in your life, if you rush from marriage into his arms. It is better to give it some time for the dust to settle first. I really do understand where your head is at, and I can't really blame you for falling in love with someone else, nor do I necessarily think this relationship is a bad one for you. It sounds to me like you have met someone who is acting as the angel you need in this dark time in your life. If this new love can give you the strength to make your exit like you should do, then that is a blessing. It really is. But you need to think this all through very carefully, there are ramifications. jen > > > "Georgia Sun" <NYnadia1...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 172 lines] > > jen In this situation, I would urge George Sun to go for very limited visitation. In order to do that, where I live, it helps to have documentation of the problems - so seeing a counselor or calling the police (if warranted) is a good thing. All of this can rile up the alcoholic. Jen, I do disagree on one rather major point - Georgia is under no obligation to make sure that her husband seeks treatment for his alcoholism. She's already done what she can and she needs to leave him to muddle through his own mess. Seriously. There's no guarantee that, if she's honest with him, he'll seek treatment or in any way be better off. Back to child visitation (and Georgia - be sure to visit alt.support.divorce if you get a chance) - supervised visits would be better. In many jurisdictions, if the children are old enough to express themselves to the judge, the judge will listen. It doesn't solve the problem of the children having to deal, lifelong, with their father's alcoholism - but they're going to have to do that whether Georgia is honest or not, whether Georgia leaves or not - etc. Getting the kids out of the situation and only intermittently involved with their dad, seems to me to be a priority. It's much easier to deal with an alcoholic from a distance, isn't it? It's all very tricky and I would strongly advise Georgia to stay in Al- Anon and to seek other kinds of support (such as from her local district attorney's office). She needs to document her husband's behavior and learn what her rights are in her own county. If the new relationship is distracting her from doing all this, then that's a very good reason to let that relationship chill - but if the new relationship is helping her get that done, I say the new relationship is fulfilling its purpose. The kids will benefit from counseling - I know mine did, as they were in a somewhat similar situation (and still are - although, we all have to deal with their dad, the two of them have to deal with him far more than I do - it's something I'll feel responsible for, the rest of my life, I can only say that I feel very blessed that they are now old enough that if they had inherited his bipolar illness, we'd know it by now - at least, that's what the doctors and the literature say). Through the years, I listened to them about whether they wanted to be near their dad - and since his behavior was erratic and he had a mental health record a mile long, he was not in a position to challenge my/their decisions about visitation. I truly believe that both daughters are much closer to him and more tolerant of him than they would ever have been, had we stayed together (and they say the same thing). Let the kids choose the distance they want to establish between themselves and their dad, go to court to fight for their rights, keep documenting, try not to badmouth the dad, seek therapy for the kids. The kids will most likely want to stay away from an alcoholic dad, especially at first, the tough part will be deciding how much to encourage them to see him. Where I live, the judges listen if a child goes to court (and many do) and asks *not* to see a parent - but I know it varies. In my case, my X's desire to see the kids was highly erratic, especially in the first couple of years after we separated, something that hurt the girls a great deal, but was in some ways a good thing (they saw so much less of him). It's hard to know what to do if the children are justifiably afraid of their father (due to alcoholism or some other problem) - a woman who is leaving a situation that an adult finds intolerable should not subject her kids to the same situation. There is this period of time, in between filing for divorce and the actual custody order, where one has a lot more degrees of freedom. My X was so disorganized in his behavior (and much worse without me there to manage his life) so that it was about 3 years before he got his act together enough to truly pursue the divorce - and it was in my interest to let things be indeterminate, so that until he got his act together, the girls weren't required to see him - they saw him when he and they all felt it was good to do so - often for very brief periods of time (breakfast on Sunday morning in a public place was the norm for them for at least a year - our own form of supervised visitation). His very first visits with them, following our separation, took place at my parents' house - where my dad was able to supervise (and believe me, that was a good thing). A. On Jul 25, 2:07 pm, Atalanta arctos <atalanta.brillia...@gmail.com> wrote: > In this situation, I would urge George Sun to go for very limited > visitation. In order to do that, where I live, it helps to have > documentation of the problems - so seeing a counselor or calling the > police (if warranted) is a good thing. All of this can rile up the > alcoholic. She's going to need documentation - DUI, police record, something - to be able to make a case to limit his visitation. And if the case gets thrown to a GAL for further investigation, then she's got to worry about how she looks too, because her fitness for custody will also be evaluated, not just his. If she's already in a new relationship, that will reflect upon her. > Jen, I do disagree on one rather major point - Georgia is under no > obligation to make sure that her husband seeks treatment for his > alcoholism. She's already done what she can and she needs to leave > him to muddle through his own mess. Seriously. There's no guarantee > that, if she's honest with him, he'll seek treatment or in any way be > better off. Of course she is under no obligation. I'm just saying that, if it were me, I'd want to know I did everything to prepare the way for it, and didn't give him one single excuse, no reason to blame me. And also that I took the high road in front of my own kids. That's all I'm saying. > Back to child visitation (and Georgia - be sure to visit > alt.support.divorce if you get a chance) - supervised visits would be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > father's alcoholism - but they're going to have to do that whether > Georgia is honest or not, whether Georgia leaves or not - etc. Yes, and they can certainly dump blame on her for NOT leaving. I'm just trying to say that while her husband's actions may give her justification to be dishonest to him, she needs to remember that her kids are watching. She is their role model for what it means to have integrity. And then of course there's the matter of being true to herself too. > Getting the kids out of the situation and only intermittently involved > with their dad, seems to me to be a priority. It's much easier to > deal with an alcoholic from a distance, isn't it? That is the priority but I think the question here is whether she should use the new relationship as the way to go about getting that distance. Sure, maybe as emotional support. But moving in with the man, marrying someone she doesn't really know? Too much, too soon. And even if it wasn't too much for her to handle, it's going to make the kids' heads swim at a time when they simply don't need all that crap to deal with. She needs to consider her kids. That's all I'm saying. Their welfare comes before her happiness. Yes, this means she should get the hell out now, but there's a right and a wrong way, IMO. Throwing a new S.O. into their lives just at a time they are handling a divorce, is cruel and selfish, if you want my opinion. > It's all very tricky and I would strongly advise Georgia to stay in Al- > Anon and to seek other kinds of support (such as from her local [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > relationship is helping her get that done, I say the new relationship > is fulfilling its purpose. Agreed, except I don't think she should take the support so far as she moves in with this man. Emotional support, sure. But she needs a transition period where she stands on her own two feet for awhile, and deals with her children's needs, which will be great. > The kids will benefit from counseling - I know mine did, as they were > in a somewhat similar situation (and still are - although, we all have [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > separation, took place at my parents' house - where my dad was able to > supervise (and believe me, that was a good thing). Agree about the supervision. Atalanta, surely you can see how her having a boyfriend at such a time is going to simply throw more gasoline on to the flames, can't you? You are worried about the man potentially becoming violent. I just can't see how she's going to hide the fact she's dating and in love with someone else from him. He'll find out, whether she's honest or not, especially if the divorce becomes hostile. jen > On Jul 25, 2:07 pm, Atalanta arctos <atalanta.brillia...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 130 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Wow...I think i need to explain myself little more. My children are my priority. I thought about divorce after my kids saw him come home drunk, passed out or passing out,agrevating them, sh.t faced. I can not protect them anymore. I hid his abiuse to protect the kids. I can not sweep it uneder the carpet anymore. They know what their father does. I need to get them out his environment for their safety. They dont even invite friedns because they are ashamed. I thought I could change him, help him quit drinking.... now I know I can only change myself For my friend, He is a great support to me He keeps me focused. I can think better and I am no loner depressed...It really feels great havig him right now. we do have special feelings for eachother, and still getting to know one other. I just need him to be in my life...I need him as much as he needs me, however we are not going to be making fool out of ourselfs from jumping one marriage to another....We will not be moving in with eachother. If we can, we will date after sepration...i just have to be strong enough to tell him -my husband, to leave or I leave with the kids...must tell him when he is sober,. BTW, he had 2 car accidents within 10 days, he rear ended, nothing major and there is no police report, i never called the cops on him, spering the embarressment from the neighboors..Kids are willing to testify at court if they have to, -they volunteered, to say that dad drinks too much If i stay in this marriage any longer, I will lose my kids forever to their fathers disease, and my self to depression I thank all of you for your great advice, positive or negative > > > "Georgia Sun" <NYnadia1...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 174 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Dear Jen, Thank you for your reply...Alot makes sense.... My children aren't happy with their dad, and have no problem about the divorce...They have witnessed alot, and at this time, I can not even protect them. Last week, I took them out to lunch and explained the possibilities of the divorce and may be moving. They understand and are ok. However, If this relationship works, IF, I will make sure that, he is not in the picture immediatly...As you indicated, I don't eant neither one of us to get the blame for the divorce. Thank you again > >> >>>> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:51:14 -0400, "zorra" > >> >>>> <zor...@comcast.net> [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > > If it wasn't wrong, there'd be no reason to hide. There are definitely other reasons to hide - one of them is safety. When a woman decides to file for divorce, especially in a marriage where there is substance abuse, she is way more at risk for violence. Of women murdered in America, about two-thirds are killed by a husband or a domestic partner. I don't have the stat in front of me for which percentage of those murders occur after an announcement of a separation. It's often a good plan to at least get oneself situated, somehow (mentally and physically) outside the marriage before telling the other party anything - if they have impulse control problems. And alcoholism, in my view, affects impulses. Many women deny the fear until they are out of the relationship (and have a restraining order and a new place to live). I don't think Georgia Sun is there yet. It's going to be a day by day thing. The window during which this kind of violence takes place is rather lengthy - take a look at the DOJ/FBI stats sometime - some of these violent acts take place as long as a year or two after the separation. Every single semester, I have at least two or three female students who are in this situation (and can't come to class because their husbands/boyfriends know they will be there, when they don't know where else they will be). So, my advice about "honesty" in a situation where one knows they are divorcing depends very much on the individuals involved, and I believe the wife knows the husband better than some person on a newsgroup knows the husband. Honesty is very cool - but it can also be deadly. A. > There are definitely other reasons to hide - one of them is safety. > > When a woman decides to file for divorce, My comments had nothing to do with honesty about seeking divorce. [snip] >>>>>>>> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:51:14 -0400, "zorra" >>>>>>>> <zor...@comcast.net> [quoted text clipped - 115 lines] > husbands/boyfriends know they will be there, when they don't know > where else they will be). And that's VERY sad - depressingly so. :-( I think these abusing "boyfriends" should be ... "terminated". They don't *deserve* to live. But in our "advanced culture", and with our "illustrious" legal system (cough), I'm sure they'll be considered the "victims" here, and get off with just a slap on the back (I can see the damn lawyers lining up now (just down that hallway), chompin at the bit, and more than ready to cash in). > So, my advice about "honesty" in a situation where one knows they are > divorcing depends very much on the individuals involved, and I believe > the wife knows the husband better than some person on a newsgroup > knows the husband. Honesty is very cool - but it can also be deadly. > > A. > LOL -- I was following Nina's logic Bill. She was saying basically > that if it's something that you would expect to share exclusively with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Makes sense, right? Not to me! Again, not speaking for Nina, but I don't think that sharing things with others behind one's spouse's back is "okay". Any deception and dishonesty is bad in a marriage, but it's not necessarily "cheating". I know that this wasn't the central part of your argument, but thought it was a good place to clarify my own views. >> LOL -- I was following Nina's logic Bill. She was saying basically >> that if it's something that you would expect to share exclusively [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > deception and dishonesty is bad in a marriage, but it's not > necessarily "cheating". Now, Nellie, you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't -- and Nina certainly didn't -- say anything about "behind one's spouse's back". > I know that this wasn't the central part of your argument, but > thought > it was a good place to clarify my own views. It wasn't only not the central part, it wasn't any part. Zorra > "Nellie" <ellie_fi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Now, Nellie, you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't -- and Nina > certainly didn't -- say anything about "behind one's spouse's back". OK, my mistake. My understanding was that we were talking about "cheating", which by definition means behind someone's back. If you were talking about general behaviors, then I apologize... I have no problem with anything that a couple know about and accept from each other. > > "Nellie" <ellie_fi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > OK, my mistake. My understanding was that we were talking about > "cheating", which by definition means behind someone's back. No - there are people who cheat and flaunt it, sometimes in ways that are quite painful for their spouses. If you > were talking about general behaviors, then I apologize... I have no > problem with anything that a couple know about and accept from each > other. I think we're all on the same page about this - although as I read these threads about cheating, I am always amazed that some people define it without reference to what their spouse would think or feel - when, to me, the most important factor in determining whether something is cheating is whether the spouse feels it is (or would feel it was if they knew). I also think we "no lunchers" are being depicted a bit unfairly - it's not that we automatically think going to lunch is cheating (the way I understand the last discussion on this subject). It's that we live in worlds where there is no reason to make the effort to go to lunch with some stranger/colleague (I'd rather spend the time with my DH, or getting things done so that I can spend time with my family - if I started to change my mind about that, it would be significant). I don't spend time on lunch in the first place, so to organize any particular day to include going to lunch (for no reason) with some person simply feels strange to me. The people I already love and am committed to do not always feel they get enough of my time (and I agree with them). I'm guessing we no-lunchers are mostly a rather shy bunch, as well. A. >> "Nellie" <ellie_fi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > OK, my mistake. My understanding was that we were talking about > "cheating", which by definition means behind someone's back. Well, as we were rather talking about the definition of cheating, I don't think anything can be assumed. Zorra >>>>>> My husband does not hug, ever, does not kiss, ever, does not >>>>>> compliment, well, *almost* ever, does not share dreams, or discuss [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>>>> desire to share with your spouse in a happy marriage." Something >>>>> like that. I mean, your husband is not a hugger, to say the least, but >>>>> to you I think, ideally, that sort of affection would be part of your >>>>> relationship with your spouse. I think that if you shared that [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > And conversely, if it's not something you expect to share exclusively > with your spouse, then it's okay to share it with someone else. I don't know. Is it really? Looking at it from a truly moral point of view? > Makes sense, right? And for most marriages that includes most kinds > of intimacy. But for example, some people are huggers and hug [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Get it? On hugging, yes. On real intimacy, I'm not so sure (from a moral perspective). >>>>>> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:51:14 -0400, "zorra" >>>>>> <zorra2@comcast.net> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > point of > view? People define their own morals. Most people consider sex with anyone other than one's spouse to be wrong, but there are open marriages -- you know that. Zorra >>>>>>> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:51:14 -0400, "zorra" >>>>>>> <zorra2@comcast.net> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >>>>>>> desire to share with your spouse in a happy marriage." >>>>>>> Something like that. I mean, your husband is not a hugger, to say the >>>>>>> the least, but >>>>>>> to you I think, ideally, that sort of affection would be part of your >>>>>>> relationship with your spouse. I think that if you shared that >>>>>>> intimacy with someone else, it would be infidelity. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > People define their own morals. Really?? No, not really! If you take a good, close, objective look at the world around you.......I think NOT - so much. >> People define their own morals. > > Really?? No, not really! If you take a good, close, objective > look at > the world around you.......I think NOT - so much. Sure they do -- you just don't agree with them. Zorra >>> People define their own morals. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Zorra Nope. Some people do NOT have any morals. >>>>Any intimate (physically or emotionally) relationship which you >>>>keep [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Unless he meant "normally" as defined by society rather than as > defined by an individual couple? Not to me. I view "normally", in this context, to mean what I expect to share with my husband (regardless of whether I actually do or not). It's made up of some things that society has conditioned me to want, what I've explicitly talked to my husband about, and what I implicitly expect based on our individual personalities and relationship. > >>>>Any intimate (physically or emotionally) relationship which you > >>>>keep [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > - Show quoted text - It is confusing what to share and what not to share. Especially if you are receiving close to none intimacy. It is human nature to want to be close with people, well for most, I think. And if that is lacking with your SO it is hard *not* to find it elsewhere, with men or women. So what if you are speaking with someone of the opposite sex and they tell you of a problem they have. You personalize it and put yourself in their position and tell what you would do. That could be quite an intimate conversation. And it could help them and maybe even the relationship they share with their SO. So what boundaries do you set for topic of conversation? I think you can feel it, if you are honest with yourself. Know your boundaries and the boundaries of your SO. Vickie >> >>>>Any intimate (physically or emotionally) relationship which you >> >>>>keep [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > lacking with your SO it is hard *not* to find it elsewhere, with men > or women. But it's not hard to be honest about it. And even if it is, of what real value is a commitment to honesty if it's only practiced if it's easy? > So what if you are speaking with someone of the opposite > sex and they tell you of a problem they have. You personalize it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > can feel it, if you are honest with yourself. Know your boundaries > and the boundaries of your SO. To try to parse a very specific definition of what is cheating and what isn't cheating is exactly the trouble with this kind of debate. The party that defends cheating can always describe a hypothetical which could technically fit the words in the definition to try to show that the definition doesn't apply. But the bottom line is this....... If you're having a liaison with a person to whom you are either romantically or sexually attracted, and you have to keep any part of that liaison a secret from your SO, then there's an overwhelming probability that it's cheating. You can lie to the rest of the world about your attraction, and maybe even get away with it, but that doesn't change a thing. > >> >>>>Any intimate (physically or emotionally) relationship which you > >> >>>>keep [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > > - Show quoted text - And if you do not lie to your SO about it? You are an open-book; no secret passwords etc., they can know anything they would like to know about the conversation you have had? Vickie >> >> >>>>Any intimate (physically or emotionally) relationship which >> >> >>>>you [quoted text clipped - 118 lines] > > And if you do not lie to your SO about it? Then it's not cheating. It may or may not be a bad thing, but it's not cheating. > You are an open-book; no secret passwords etc., they can know > anything > they would like to know about the conversation you have had? First of all, I make sure not to put myself into situations where I have any relationships with anyone to whom I'm attracted, and second; I have no such secrets when it comes to any interpersonal relationships. I am absolutely an open book. > >> "Vickie" <vic...@mcdanielx.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 125 lines] > Then it's not cheating. It may or may not be a bad thing, but it's > not cheating. Agreed. > > You are an open-book; no secret passwords etc., they can know > > anything > > they would like to know about the conversation you have had? > > First of all, I make sure not to put myself into situations where I > have any relationships with anyone to whom I'm attracted Assuming you are hetero do you not go out with the opposite sex for lunch, movie, chat privately, what have you? And if you do and things development- not intimacy exactly, but a level of comfort and friendship and yes that person is attractive, you then back off? Or cut them off? Do you not think there is any form of morals and values that you own- where you can still see them, but you would never cross the line? Or do you figure, better not tempt fate? No judgement, just curious, ok AY? , and second; > I have no such secrets when it comes to any interpersonal > relationships. I am absolutely an open book. Me too. Vickie - Hide quoted text - > - Show quoted text - >> > You are an open-book; no secret passwords etc., they can know >> > anything [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > friendship and yes that person is attractive, you then back off? Or > cut them off? Those are very interesting questions which I'll answer even though I find them irrelevant to the issue of cheating. I don't have any problem if people want to behave as you describe. My problem is with the act of hiding that behavior. If it was OK, then why the need to hide it? I think it's a terrible idea for people to have regular, personal, intimate contact with people of the sex to which they are attracted. That's exactly how many affairs begin, and I simply find it inappropriate. And so to answer your question, NO, I most definitely do not go out to lunches, movies, or "chat privately" with other women. To answer your second question, there's a difference between whether or not I think someone is attractive, and whether or not I am attracted to someone. For instance, I have no problem with having brief chats in my very public gym with women, attractive or otherwise. But I do not chat with women to whom I might be attracted. And I want to stress here that I have no problem if other people do. My problem lies when people have to keep it a secret from their spouses. > Do you not think there is any form of morals and values that you > own- > where you can still see them, but you would never cross the line? > Or > do you figure, better not tempt fate? My personal choice is not to temp fate, but I don't find people who do as immoral. I just think they're foolish. What I find immoral is the lying about it. If they're willing to tell their spouse that they are attracted to someone or other, and that they're having regular, intentional, personal contact with that person, then at least they're not cheating. But if they hide the fact that they're attracted, and they lie about the contact, then it's cheating. > No judgement, just curious, ok AY? Sure. > > , and second; >> I have no such secrets when it comes to any interpersonal [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - > >> > You are an open-book; no secret passwords etc., they can know > >> > anything [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the act of hiding that behavior. If it was OK, then why the need to > hide it? Well, I guess I was trying to figure out how you draw the line *before* you consider it cheating. Just that, well, sometimes it sneaks up on you. Honestly; like you don't find someone attractive and then the more you know them the more you feel it, not that you would necessarily do anything about it or even know how the other person feels. Very hypothetical, sorry about that. > I think it's a terrible idea for people to have regular, personal, > intimate contact with people of the sex to which they are attracted. > That's exactly how many affairs begin, and I simply find it > inappropriate. And so to answer your question, NO, I most definitely > do not go out to lunches, movies, or "chat privately" with other > women. Ohhhh, too bad. lol (kidding you know) > To answer your second question, there's a difference between whether > or not I think someone is attractive, and whether or not I am [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to stress here that I have no problem if other people do. My problem > lies when people have to keep it a secret from their spouses. You are right, I worded that very incorrectly. I meant attracted to- not that you just find them good looking, hot, whatever. > > Do you not think there is any form of morals and values that you > > own- [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > not cheating. But if they hide the fact that they're attracted, and > they lie about the contact, then it's cheating. Right, total got your opinion on the secrecy deal. (If you got the b**** to do it- you better tell me about it, in my opinion). Vickie > Right, total got your opinion on the secrecy deal. (If you got the > b**** to do it- you better tell me about it, in my opinion). :-) > > "Vickie" <vic...@mcdanielx.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > > Vickie It could still be cheating! And it could be one of those cases where the spouse simply doesn't care - or is even relieved to have some of their own relationship burdens lifted. The open-book person would have to be the one who decides that, I guess - if the other spouse simply doesn't care that their partner is increasingly their intimacy with some party outside the marriage. Many spouses are gladdened if their spouse finds intimacy outside the relationship - especially if it's with a group of people and not just with one person (that's pretty threatening to the marriage). They feel relieved and entitled to pursue their own versions of intimacy/ enjoyment. Other spouses are pretty ticked off if their spouse has consistent *time consuming* ongoing enjoyable relationships (even if they're not that intimate) outside the marriage. It's good to know what one's own spouse thinks about this. A. On Jul 25, 11:25 am, Atalanta arctos <atalanta.brillia...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > "Vickie" <vic...@mcdanielx.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 109 lines] > simply doesn't care that their partner is increasingly their intimacy > with some party outside the marriage. Ok, ok! lol:-) Is it cheating when no one is feeling cheated upon? > Many spouses are gladdened if their spouse finds intimacy outside the > relationship - especially if it's with a group of people and not just [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that intimate) outside the marriage. It's good to know what one's own > spouse thinks about this. I agree. Know thy spouse and *their* boundaries. Vickie >>>>>Any intimate (physically or emotionally) relationship which you >>>>>keep [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > implicitly expect based on our individual personalities and > relationship. Hmm...so if I do not expect to share these things with my husband because his personality makes that impossible? Zorra > "Nellie" <ellie_fi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message [..] > > I view "normally", in this context, to mean what I expect > > to share with my husband (regardless of whether I actually do or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Hmm...so if I do not expect to share these things with my husband > because his personality makes that impossible? Then you have no business being married to him! That is, unless you both agree that marriage without sharing those things is acceptable and negotiate the boundaries of your relationship. My point is that we don't get to unilaterally change the mutually accepted parameters of "our marriage" just because we aren't getting what we had hoped to get from it -- and if we do, and act on our decision, then it will be "cheating" by any definition! >> "Nellie" <ellie_fi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > what we had hoped to get from it -- and if we do, and act on our > decision, then it will be "cheating" by any definition! What mutually accepted parameters? Zorra > >> "Nellie" <ellie_fi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > What mutually accepted parameters? For my husband and me the accepted parameters are that we share any and all romantic and sexual intimacy with each other exclusively. Our understanding of our marriage is that it's not acceptable to seek it elsewhere, even if one of us is not satisfied with the level of those intimacies within the marriage. For us, any and all other relationships with others are acceptable. Lying about any and all activities is not acceptable, etc. There are other things about our relationship that we both accept and expect too, but they're irrelevant to this discussion. > > "Nellie" <ellie_fi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > There are other things about our relationship that we both accept and > expect too, but they're irrelevant to this discussion. Yep - that's exactly how we have things set up, too. Not only that we exclusively share any and all romantic and sexual intimacy (and general personal intimacy as well) but that we never *seek* it with anyone else. Dissatisfaction at home notwithstanding. So far, so good. A. >> >> "Nellie" <ellie_fi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > For my husband and me the accepted parameters are that we share any > and all romantic and sexual intimacy with each other exclusively. That is certainly the general expectation within a marriage or serious relationship. Did you actually spell that out? Do people normally? We just sort of assumed it, along with other things, some of which have turned out to be erroneous assumptions on my part. Zorra >>>"Nellie" <ellie_fi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>>>>"Nellie" <ellie_fi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > That is certainly the general expectation within a marriage or serious > relationship. Did you actually spell that out? No, we didn't (and that's where my "conditioned by society" comes from). We started with the generally accepted concept of marriage in western society, and talked about some details and expectation from that platform. The parts that we didn't explicitly talked about we took from "social expectation" I suppose -- it turned out to be our expectations too! > Do people normally? I don't think so. It's a smart thing to do, but I don't think it's as important as people make it to be. What usually happens is that in the early days, expectations of the couple are more in tune with each other. So even if they talk about every detail to death and make sure that everything is understood between them, the real troubles show up in time when they *change*. Most problems are the result of people changing over time than misunderstanding each other in the beginning, though for big ticket items the latter is very important. Things like the overall lifestyle preferences, having children, and things of that nature should be explicitly discussed. But even then, a person may feel one way in the beginning and completely change over time. > We just sort of assumed it, along with other things, some of which > have turned out to be erroneous assumptions on my part. You may have been able to assume better, but my guess is that even if you did discuss details, you couldn't have envisioned the picture that took shape over time. > >> "Nellie" <ellie_fi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Zorra Ha. Exactly. Although I do have to say that the second time around, I was much more explicit about parameters - and am with someone who has done a great deal of thinking about issues of personal identity, boundaries and what various relationships he's willing to be in. My parents are still working their "mutually accepted parameters" out, apparently (they have some - but they have conflicts about many, and it's been 66 years for them now). A. >> >> "Nellie" <ellie_fi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > has done a great deal of thinking about issues of personal identity, > boundaries and what various relationships he's willing to be in. Yes, if I am ever in another relationship, things will be spelled out a lot more clearly. Zorra >> "Nellie" <ellie_fi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > what we had hoped to get from it -- and if we do, and act on our > decision, then it will be "cheating" by any definition! That is absolutely correct. > Hmm...so if I do not expect to share these things with my husband > because his personality makes that impossible? Then the question you need to ask yourself is why were you willing to accept those conditions when you signed up to marry him? It wasn't as if you barely knew him - you'd known him several years, didn't you? Either he changed somewhere after marriage (in which case, it has nothing to do with his personality making it impossible), or you have changed your own expectations. And if it is the latter, that is okay, but you really need to let him know that. Don't assume it's his personality. Sure, it *could* be. But then again, it could be that he thought this is what you wanted too, especially if he was this way when you married him. jen >> Hmm...so if I do not expect to share these things with my husband >> because his personality makes that impossible? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > thought this is what you wanted too, especially if he was this way > when you married him. Yes, he was like this when I married him. Circumstances have changed, his priorities have changed a bit as he's gotten older, but he's essentially the same person he always was. I'm not "assuming" it's his personality -- it has taken me a very long time to come to this conclusion, and to accept that he really will not change. In fact, I still catch myself thinking that if I just do or say the right thing, it will make a difference. But I know that isn't true. And yes, I most certainly have let him know how important these things are to me. As to why I married him in the first place....I've done a lot of thinking on that. I think the main reason is just that I wasn't nearly as smart as I thought I was back then. I saw the kindness and respect with which he treated his mom, his family, and I thought that's what I could expect as part of his family. I thought the coldness was his attempt to distance me, and that if he ever decided to marry me, that it would disappear. I admired so much about him and I thought I could live up to his expectations, and that doing so would mean something. And as for the affection....well to be honest, I didn't miss the other touching so much when we were at least having frequent sex. I'm not sure it's a matter of me changing my expectations so much as...becoming disillusioned. I never did get that loving respectful attitude that he has towards his mother. And I never was able to live up to his expectations, and had to face the consequences of that. And then when sex really slowed down too, I no longer felt like I was getting physical affection either. I also didn't realize at the time how much of our social time was spent with other couples back when we were dating. I think that masked some of how things were. And Georgia -- sorry for hijacking your thread. Zorra > >> > > I will take my time, and get to know this erson real well. No > >> > > hurry. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > replace some of the intimacy that you would normally have with your > spouse, does that mean it's not cheating? Missed this. I meant what I wrote. I described a situation which to me is definitely cheating. I didn't try to define all possible situations which are cheating, or all possible situations which are not cheating. >> >> > > I will take my time, and get to know this erson real well. >> >> > > No [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > or > all possible situations which are not cheating. Um, yes Doug, as I already acknowledged further downthread. Zorra |
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