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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / July 2007Born with confidence?
A friend and I last night were speaking about confidence and we both agreed it was something you are just born with. Part of your makeup. So can you ever really *learn* to have freedom of doubt, belief in yourself and your abilities? Can you be born with a fair amount of confidence and then the experiences in your life chip away at it and then you are lacking. Or the reverse? Putting serious effort into boosting it and achieving confidence. My husband has an extraordinary amount of confidence, and boarders sometimes on arrogance. Actually he steps over that line quite a bit. Having pride is a crazy thing, isn't it? People tell their children to be proud of a job well done, but there is a fine line of being too proud. Anyway, it is something I truly admire in people, my friend agrees. I think I would rather walk that tightrope between confidence and arrogance than be a self-doubter. I want to know how. But even if I figured it out I wonder if it would be going against my own makeup and eventually fizzle. Vickie > A friend and I last night were speaking about confidence and we both > agreed it was something you are just born with. Part of your makeup. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > figured it out I wonder if it would be going against my own makeup and > eventually fizzle. Yes, confidence is something you can learn. And it is something that life can take away from you. It is also something that can be faked by people who don't believe in themselves. Kitten >> A friend and I last night were speaking about confidence and we both >> agreed it was something you are just born with. Part of your makeup. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Kitten It's something you learn or don't learn. It's NOT inborn. But it's also more complicated than that, because you may have confidence in some things, but not in others. It's not black or white, all or nothing. >A friend and I last night were speaking about confidence and we both > agreed it was something you are just born with. Part of your > makeup. I disagree totally. > So can you ever really *learn* to have freedom of doubt, belief in > yourself and your abilities? You can learn, but confidence is a nurture attribute, not a nature attribute. > Can you be born with a fair amount of > confidence and then the experiences in your life chip away at it and > then you are lacking. Or the reverse? Putting serious effort into > boosting it and achieving confidence. We're born confidence neutral. > My husband has an extraordinary amount of confidence, and boarders > sometimes on arrogance. Actually he steps over that line quite a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > and > eventually fizzle. That depends upon whether or not you're just acting confident. True confidence comes from knowing the specific source of your insecurities, and then dealing with those. > We're born confidence neutral. So like a clean slate? Not so sure if I believe that. Vickie >> We're born confidence neutral. > > So like a clean slate? Not so sure if I believe that. Ask yourself "What is confidence?". Confidence is a belief. How can you possibly be born with a belief in anything when you know nothing? > >> "Vickie" <vic...@mcdanielx.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Ask yourself "What is confidence?". Confidence is a belief. How can > you possibly be born with a belief in anything when you know nothing? How can you possibly know you know nothing? Why does it have to be a belief? What if it is like a talent. Like someone who can sing like a bird or a baseball-er who can point to where his home-run will go? Vickie > How can you possibly know you know nothing? Why does it have to be a > belief? What if it is like a talent. Like someone who can sing like > a bird or a baseball-er who can point to where his home-run will go? Baby works hard to roll over - finally on his belly - he sees that bright red object - starts to wiggle them move pulling and pushing himself; to his surprise he moves to the 'bright object a few feet away. All this time mommy and daddy are going jumping with excitement. Baby gets two positives - one he reached that bright toy - the other, encouragement from mommy and daddy. He now has some confidence knowing he moved before; maybe he can again. Same goes for singing in the presents of others. If they reinforce that you can sing; great. But, if they say - stick to the shower .... then LOL you know just how good of a singer you are ... :(  SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) > > How can you possibly know you know nothing? Why does it have to be a > > belief? What if it is like a talent. Like someone who can sing like [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > you can sing; great. But, if they say - stick to the shower .... then > LOL you know just how good of a singer you are ... :( No one told me to stick to the shower so I guess I was ok there! Ok, so you gain confidence when mom and dad first gives you accolades for small achievements, well, not small for a babe, but, you know what I mean, Then life comes into play as you get older and you either maintain the same confidence or it moves up, or comes down. And it can very from what you are doing. Yes, I get that. But you don't think that there is anyway people are wired-up with different dispositions from the very beginning? We have a soul, I know you believe that. So why couldn't that be the case? Vickie >>> How can you possibly know you know nothing? Why does it have to be a >>> belief? What if it is like a talent. Like someone who can sing like [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > But you don't think that there is anyway people are wired-up with > different dispositions from the very beginning? Different dispositions? Yeah, we can agree on that. But confidence or no confidence being genetic based? I don't think so. > We have a soul, I know you believe that. Well, not quite. Some people I have met do NOT have a soul. They may have had one at one time, but I'm not even sure of that. > So why couldn't that be the case? For different dispositions from the very beginning - I think that can be true. And indeed is true, at least in some areas of personality, to some extent. On Jul 23, 4:20 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>> How can you possibly know you know nothing? Why does it have to be a > >>> belief? What if it is like a talent. Like someone who can sing like [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > - Show quoted text - How about strength of character instead of confidence? Would that be a disposition to be born with? V > On Jul 23, 4:20 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > a disposition to be born with? > V I still don't believe it is. I still believe that is something you develop (perhaps more often so given the "right" environments). On Jul 23, 6:49 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > On Jul 23, 4:20 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Well, no one lives in a vaccuum. No environment is all *right*. So how is it that some have that strength and others do not? Vickie > On Jul 23, 6:49 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>>>>> bright red object - starts to wiggle them move pulling and pushing >>>>>> himself; to his surprise he moves to the 'bright object a few feet away. >>>>>> All this time mommy and daddy are going jumping with excitement. Baby >>>>>> gets two positives - one he reached that bright toy - the other, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>>>>> Same goes for singing in the presents of others. If they reinforce >> >>>> that you can sing; great. But, if they say - stick to the shower .... then >>>>>> LOL you know just how good of a singer you are ... :( >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >>>> For different dispositions from the very beginning - I think that can be >>>> true. And indeed is true, at least in some areas of personality, to some >>>> extent. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Well, no one lives in a vacuum. No environment is all *right*. I didn't mean perfect environment. What I meant was a environment which fosters it for that particular individual, and that enviroment may be different for different people. Some people might get confidence from roadblocks and the challenge, and some may get it only from navigating easy paths, at least in the earlier stages. I don't think there is a pat answer for it, because we're all different and unique. > So how is it that some have that strength and others do not? > Vickie Because we're all just different? And as I said before, we might have confidence in one area, but not in another area, so I'm don't think it's always "all or nothing" in regards to confidence. (OTOH, I'm sure there are some people who have almost no confidence in much of anything, and yet others who have confidence (but perhaps misplaced in some cases) in most things, too. But I would guess there is a continuum here. So anyways, beyond all this, I just don't know. > So how is it that some have that strength and others do not? Bad parenting --- SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) > > So how is it that some have that strength and others do not? > > Bad parenting --- No, my mom was terrific. V > > > So how is it that some have that strength and others do not? > > > Bad parenting --- > > No, my mom was terrific. My mother and her parents were great. My father and his parents weren't. I do have to agree with SD to a degree (although not completely). I've had too many people in our community tell me they can tell which of Chewy's and my younger 3 is mine and which 2 are his, simply by the kids' behavior and attitudes. Perhaps it would be harder for people to tell if we'd met sooner and I'd been in his kids' lives earlier. Who knows. Kitten >> > > So how is it that some have that strength and others do not? >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > to tell if we'd met sooner and I'd been in his kids' lives earlier. > Who knows. Well, as those kids have both different nature *and* different nurture, it's hard to tell anything by this example. But I do hope that no one is taking anything I said to mean that I don't think parents have influence on their children!!! That could not be farther from the truth! I think parents have a huge influence! I just don't think it's the only thing. You see too many stories of kids triumphing over bad starts, or of course the opposite. See the book, "The Glass Castle" by Jeanette Walls for an example of the first. People read stories like that and their hearts are warmed by the strength shown by the kids to rise above their upbringing. Yet in the opposite case -- if you read about someone with a good upbringing who turned out badly, there's always a skepticism -- the feeling that "something must have been going on behind closed doors" to make the child turn out that way. Zorra > many people in our community tell me they can tell which > of Chewy's and my younger 3 is mine and which 2 are his, simply by the > kids' behavior and attitudes. Not surprising in the least. Mix apples and oranges, some will go bad; not all. What I am referencing is when a parents behavior and parenting style (say passive) is mixed with a child's basic personality traits; say extraversion and openness - what comes to the surface commonly referred to as "personality" easily could be really different. >Perhaps it would be harder for people to tell if we'd met sooner and I'd been in his kids' lives earlier. Kitten, you're "stuff" mixed with what ever stuff your "X" had then mixed with what ever traits your kids were born with may mix well. But, keep in mind, that each of us, including your children are defined by the Id, Ego, and Super-Ego... this is where what others see in your children, might be easily related back to what you present to the public; yet, the truth is not really public. I've seen it where both mom and dad's issues compounded healthy parenting by sending mix messages to the children with somewhat different personality traits. SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) >>> So how is it that some have that strength and others do not? >> >> Bad parenting --- > > No, my mom was terrific. > V But (as I recall) I think you said you also grew up without your dad (for the most of your life). On Jul 24, 9:45 am, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>> So how is it that some have that strength and others do not? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > But (as I recall) I think you said you also grew up without your dad (for > the most of your life). Yes, although I don't like going there. Sometimes you wonder what role that would play in making you the person you are. Vickie > On Jul 24, 9:45 am, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Vickie I don't. I think the role a mother and a father play is a very significant and compl-e-mentary role (and hopefully compl-i-mentary). Of course, they're trying to do away with that, by in these days (of "enlightenment", of course), trying to institute gay marriages, (not civil unions), so, in the end, who really cares? And as you can see, by the increasing dissolution of marriages, and the breakdown in society as a consequence of the increasing lack of good parenting, we have made such "great" sociological gains. It's truly outstanding, isn't it. (rhetorical) > On Jul 24, 9:45 am, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Vickie You bring this issue up frequently - but you include the "don't want to go there comment." It's tempting, on a public board, to go ahead and make comments - but you seem not to want them. A. On Jul 24, 2:01 pm, Atalanta arctos <atalanta.brillia...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Jul 24, 9:45 am, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Honestly, what good is it? Nothing can change the past. It sucked, sucked bad and it hurts too much to go there. If I don't think about it, I don't weep for something I can never change. Crying like a baby over it solves nothing. I think commenting on it will make no never-mind. But comment away. I really don't think I will know how or what to respond though. Vickie > On Jul 24, 2:01 pm, Atalanta arctos <atalanta.brillia...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Vickie There are many other ways to deal with information about the past than tears - but if there's still grief there, there's grief. I feel badly that you still have so much feeling about it - but *understanding* oneself (regardless of the sad feelings) is the point - not revisiting the feelings. It isn't about changing the past, it's about self- knowledge. At any rate, I believe that some of the answers to any woman's questions about her own self-esteem lie in her relationship to her father - and to the men around her. And obviously, some of the answers lie elsewhere. I may be misunderstanding you, but it seemed you were wondering why your own level of self-confidence didn't seem as high as others'. You can't change the past, but you can definitely seek out experiences that heal and augment the past. This is just a total wild guess on my part, but I think you admire your husband very much - you've presented many different things about him here that can be seen as critical, but ultimately, you seem to admire him. I get the impression you think he admires some things about you, too - but he can only admire what he sees. If you're limiting yourself in some way (I'm not saying you are - but if your self-esteem is suffering, you probably are) - your husband has no opportunity to support you in stretching your limits. And I don't mean "stretching" as in "doing something entirely new and different" - I just get this feeling about you that you have insights and aptitudes that are not being recognized IRL by the people close to you, that's all. A. On Jul 25, 12:21 pm, Atalanta arctos <atalanta.brillia...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Jul 24, 2:01 pm, Atalanta arctos <atalanta.brillia...@gmail.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > the feelings. It isn't about changing the past, it's about self- > knowledge. I hear you. But I think delving into things at this point would just give me a chip on my shoulder. I have tried in the past to figure things out, but as I have said, it is too hard. I get no where- not even a doubt in my beliefs. Anger and tears, that is all. > At any rate, I believe that some of the answers to any woman's > questions about her own self-esteem lie in her relationship to her [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > you that you have insights and aptitudes that are not being recognized > IRL by the people close to you, that's all. Well as you know, I had no father, no men in my life as a kid. So maybe that is something. You do have the question I have right. I do admire my husband, right again. I see his actions and reactions to things in a confident, determined way (mostly). That is not to say I think *he* can *fix* me. I see what you are saying, what is good in me- is not necessarily something you can see. And if I can look at it that way, I should be able to gain some confidence. (I think, that is what you mean) Vickie > On Jul 25, 12:21 pm, Atalanta arctos <atalanta.brillia...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > > Vickie I do mean that - but I also mean that *you* might not be able to see your own good qualities clearly. I know that, for me, the period in which I was a stay at home mom was very hard, confidence-wise. It would be sort of strange to have the same kind of confidence in one's parenting abilities as one might have in, for example, one's ability to type at a particular speed. The areas in which I have a lot of confidence are mostly areas where I began to test myself and develop confidence as a kid - although there are some things I feel much more confident about now, than I used to - after working to gain enough experience to evaluate whether I was, in fact, able to do the thing I'm confident about. And there's a huge list of things I'm not confident about (justifiably). You might want to sit down and write some prose about yourself (sounds like a blog, doesn't it?) and reveal your own strong points to yourself. You said something a couple of weeks back about your husband being highly intelligent (even super-intelligent) and that stuck in my mind. If you live with a super-intelligent person, and you don't have much contact with people outside the household, it would be easy to lose the ability to evaluate one's own intelligence. You're a very intelligent individual - and psychologically adept too. You're one of the few people who've come here with a specific problem (husband too much into WoW) and actually managed to make real headway. I know he might start playing again, but I'm trusting him to take a more solitary role (will be interesting for him) so that he can break off playing more easily. He can do it. You can help him do it. Whatever kind of "smarts" it is that tells a person not to spend all their time gaming - your husband may lack that - and you have it. Anyway, I got the sense that you think your husband is smarter than you in some way - he might think so too, but I'd take some time to re-evaluate that, if I were you. A. On Jul 25, 5:03 pm, Atalanta arctos <atalanta.brillia...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Jul 25, 12:21 pm, Atalanta arctos <atalanta.brillia...@gmail.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > same kind of confidence in one's parenting abilities as one might have > in, for example, one's ability to type at a particular speed. Yes, I whole-heartily agree. Staying at home, raising our children, man, I would have quit this job long ago if I could have! Oooh, that sounds kind of bad. Well, you don't get very much gratitude do you? (not trying to be a martyr) > The areas in which I have a lot of confidence are mostly areas where I > began to test myself and develop confidence as a kid - although there [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to sit down and write some prose about yourself (sounds like a blog, > doesn't it?) and reveal your own strong points to yourself. Dirty word: blog:-). Maybe a diary. Or journal, lol, now that I am a grown-up! > You said something a couple of weeks back about your husband being > highly intelligent (even super-intelligent) and that stuck in my [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > - he might think so too, but I'd take some time to re-evaluate that, > if I were you. I again oh, you know- thanks and all that. sheesh. ANYWAY..... lol, yes, he has returned to the game. But so far so good. No major complaints. He is pretty much playing for himself, not with a group. I can cope with that. I little wary still, though, but ok. He is just soooo damn smart/confident. I want that. So when I screw up, I wait for the joke, you know. Bothers me sometimes, but you get tired of laughing it off. I still remind him in public or at family functions not to make me look stupid, (very pitiful). Really all in all it is not all that bad. I just want to feel confident in what I say and what I do is all and am wondering if it is even *in* me.. Vickie [...] > He is just soooo damn smart/confident. I want that. So when I screw > up, I wait for the joke, you know. Bothers me sometimes, but you get > tired of laughing it off. I still remind him in public or at family > functions not to make me look stupid, (very pitiful). Really all in > all it is not all that bad. I just want to feel confident in what I > say and what I do is all and am wondering if it is even *in* me.. Did you lack confidence in yourself before you met your husband, Vickie? I believe most of us enormously influenced by the way the people we care about think about us. They can become mirrors in which we see ourselves, in some respects. I feel as if I've got to know you a little bit since you began writing and I'm often at a loss to understand why you do seek as much reassurance as you do because you seem to me to be thoughtful and have plenty of common sense and wisdom. Certainly enough not to be either defensive or feel inferior! Unfortunately, I don't know how you can convince yourself of that, especially if someone whose opinion you care about is constantly sending you the message that you are stupid. Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you and whether it's something he does to everyone or just some subset of people. What might you have in common? > [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > whether it's something he does to everyone or just some subset of people. > What might you have in common? I find it helpful to remind myself that no one is really scrutinizing me, my behavior or lack of fashion sense, no one cares, and they are just too wrapped up in themselves to care about any gaffes I might make. Real life isn't Usenet where people get picked apart for any little thing! > [...] > > Did you lack confidence in yourself before you met your husband, Vickie? I > believe most of us enormously influenced by the way the people we care about > think about us. They can become mirrors in which we see ourselves, in some > respects. I did lack some, in some ways, and in other ways, not so much. It is hard to think back then, you know? Been awhile. > I feel as if I've got to know you a little bit since you began writing and > I'm often at a loss to understand why you do seek as much reassurance as you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > especially if someone whose opinion you care about is constantly sending you > the message that you are stupid. That was the original question. Should you be able to overcome remarks because you have a innate characteristic of confidence? But I am getting what most of you are saying. Bill said it too. To at least be able to *boost* confidence, you might need the right environment to have success in it. It is why I didn't answer his post, lol. I was getting it, but it is a sucky position to be in and not sure what *I* can do about it. Ha! maybe getting out of the house more! > Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you and > whether it's something he does to everyone or just some subset of people. > What might you have in common? Well, he does it to most people. So, if I look at it that way, it is more *his* problem, right? And as far as doing it to me, well it is like anything a lot of spouse's do, I think. They can spit stuff out because you are family and love them unconditionally. Just sometimes I would like to get it through his head, that because I *am* his family and choice, that he should be more willing to, oh, what is a good word here?, ummm, to be more considerate, I guess. Vickie >> Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you and >> whether it's something he does to everyone or just some subset of people. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >like anything a lot of spouse's do, I think. They can spit stuff out >because you are family and love them unconditionally. I just don't believe that for a second. Because someone loves you, that means that they should treat you with love and care and as though you are MORE valuable that the rest of the universe, not less. (Actually, this is exactly what bothers the hell out of me about the whole notion of "unconditional" love, if it's used as a reason why you can treat people like sh.t.) > >> Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you and > >> whether it's something he does to everyone or just some subset of people. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > whole notion of "unconditional" love, if it's used as a reason why you > can treat people like sh.t.) I feel the same. It is like this bad habit people get into. And if you are not one to do that sort of thing. It takes a lot out of you trying to maneuver around it. I have actually came right out and said it a few times, I think it takes him aback. Then he will tease and I don't like that too much. I think it might be his way of apologizing, though. Men can be so complex sometimes, lol! Vickie > > >> Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you and > > >> whether it's something he does to everyone or just some subset of people. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Uhhhh, apologies to the guys out there. The *men can be so complex* was in regards to my situation. I am sure women do this too! I am sorry to say. Vickie >> >> Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you and >> >> whether it's something he does to everyone or just some subset of people. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >you are not one to do that sort of thing. It takes a lot out of you >trying to maneuver around it. >I have actually came right out and said it a few times, I think it >takes him aback. Then he will tease and I don't like that too much. >I think it might be his way of apologizing, though. Men can be so >complex sometimes, lol! See, I don't think you should be trying to maneuver around it or make light of it, although, believe me, I absolutely understand why you do. I think that if you want that kind of behavior to change, you have to be willing to confront it every single time it happens (and to add on, AND I hate being teased, so cut that out, too). >>>>> Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you and >>>>> whether it's something he does to everyone or just some subset of people. >>>>> What might you have in common? >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > be willing to confront it every single time it happens (and to add on, > AND I hate being teased, so cut that out, too). I second what Nina said. And it will take practice before it gets easier, Vickie. On Jul 26, 10:56 am, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>>>> Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you > and [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > - Show quoted text - k V > >> >> Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you and > >> >> whether it's something he does to everyone or just some subset of people. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I am not very good at being consistent. My own moods come into factor. Sometimes I can take it, sometimes it hurts. So it must be confusing to him, you know? That is when I get the *Why are you being so sensitive, or time of the month*, comments. Not always though, he is not constantly on me or anything. Just to get that clear. (Oh, and I am usually more bothered by the sensitive remark than the time of the month remark, because, well, honestly, my mood does change then). Vickie >> >> >> Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you and >> >> >> whether it's something he does to everyone or just some subset of people. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >time of the month remark, because, well, honestly, my mood does change >then). Mine does too, but I'd still be inclined to swat him if he said that. ;-) > >> >> >> Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you and > >> >> >> whether it's something he does to everyone or just some subset of people. [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > - Show quoted text - LOL! Vickie >>>>>> Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you and >>>>>> whether it's something he does to everyone or just some subset of people. >>>>>> What might you have in common? >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > factor. Sometimes I can take it, sometimes it hurts. So it must be > confusing to him, you know? Please stop that. You're blaming yourself again, and again. Why can't you put some of the blame on him (where some of it belongs) for a change? > at is when I get the *Why are you being > so sensitive, or time of the month*, comments. Not always though, he [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Vickie On Jul 26, 1:30 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>>>>> Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you > and [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Please stop that. You're blaming yourself again, and again. Why can't > you put some of the blame on him (where some of it belongs) for a change? You know, I don't know. And it sucks sometimes. I think I am worried, and I cannot -for the life of me- figure out why. Isn't that terrible? Vickie > On Jul 26, 1:30 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: >> >>>>>>>> Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you and >>>>>>>> whether it's something he does to everyone or just some subset of >>>>>>>> people. What might you have in common? [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Vickie Well, it isn't great. It takes practice - start with some smaller things, and work your way up. And conversely, if you don't practice it sometime, it won't ever happen. On Jul 26, 9:27 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > On Jul 26, 1:30 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Yes, smaller stuff to gain the confidence. You are right I need to put more effort in to sticking with my gut feeling on stuff and being repetitive to break old habits that I find disturbing without worrying over the consequences of my actions. There are a couple things I have in mind I would like to work on and have made some half-hearted attempts. I think I will try harder, keep on him, not in a nagging way, just to try and drill home how much *it* bothers me, break the habit. Vickie > I feel the same. It is like this bad habit people get into. And if > you are not one to do that sort of thing. It takes a lot out of you > trying to maneuver around it. I hear you. > I have actually came right out and said it a few times, I think it > takes him aback. Then he will tease and I don't like that too much. > I think it might be his way of apologizing, though. Men can be so > complex sometimes, lol! DH is the same way -- will just thoughtlessly spew out garbage sometimes, and then later will try to tease and make me laugh. I agree that it's his way of...maybe not apologizing exactly, but saying, "I'm over it -- everything's okay now." And you know, I generally go along with that, because what good does it do me to hold a grudge? But I would like to hear an honest apology once in a while, or at least an acknowledgement that he'd acted poorly. Zorra >> I feel the same. It is like this bad habit people get into. And if >> you are not one to do that sort of thing. It takes a lot out of you [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > And you know, I generally go along with that, because what good does > it do me to hold a grudge? What good does it do to NOT hold him accountable??? Why would he change, then? > But I would like to hear an honest apology > once in a while, or at least an acknowledgement that he'd acted > poorly. > > Zorra >>> I feel the same. It is like this bad habit people get into. And >>> if [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > change, > then? What good it does it that it returns peace to the household. If I thought that holding a grudge would actually *accomplish* something, I'd be all over it. Zorra > And you know, I generally go along with that, because what good does > it do me to hold a grudge? But I would like to hear an honest apology > once in a while, or at least an acknowledgement that he'd acted > poorly. Right. The only problem is, that stuff sticks with me, no matter what. (maybe an innate characteristic?) If you find the secret to let it go, you had better tell me! Vickie >> And you know, I generally go along with that, because what good does >> it do me to hold a grudge? But I would like to hear an honest apology [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Vickie "The path to salvation is as difficult to traverse as a razor's edge." (by SM, more or less). On Jul 26, 1:27 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > "The path to salvation is as difficult to traverse as a razor's edge." > (by SM, more or less).- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - "If at first you don't succeed, try again. Then quit. There's no use being a damn fool about it." - WCFields Ooooh, just a bit too cynical, ya think? How bout, "The road to success is always under construction." - ? A little better, I think. Vickie > Men can be so > complex sometimes, lol! That's 'cause we're on a different plane! (complex?) ha ha (note I said different--not higher/lower!) A lil' math humor there... actually very little math humor there... Bo > Vickie > > Men can be so > > complex sometimes, lol! > > That's 'cause we're on a different plane! (complex?) ha ha (note I said > different--not higher/lower!) A lil' math humor there... actually very > little math humor there... Very democratic of you. And I got that *poor* math joke. Really bad, Bo, lol. Vickie >>>> Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you and >>>> whether it's something he does to everyone or just some subset of people. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > complex sometimes, lol! > Vickie MEN can be so complex???????????? !! ROFLMAO !! On Jul 26, 10:55 am, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>>> Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you and > >>>> whether it's something he does to everyone or just some subset of [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > - Show quoted text - :-p Hey, I tried to redeem myself! And meant it, by the bye. Vickie > On Jul 26, 10:55 am, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: >> >>>>>> Perhaps you could think about why he would need to do that with you and >>>>>> whether it's something he does to everyone or just some subset of people. >>>>>> What might you have in common? >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Vickie You mean (meant?) that WOMEN can be SO complex. At least I can understand that one! (Men are pretty simple, by comparison. :-) On Jul 26, 1:25 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > On Jul 26, 10:55 am, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > - Show quoted text - No way! V > (Men are pretty simple, by comparison. :-) Some "yes", because they are lazy; others "no" because they are not. Same applies to woman - What's complex???? feelings! SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) > > (Men are pretty simple, by comparison. :-) > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" > My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) If I were a man, I think I would be pretty cool. And my name would be like Rock or Brick or something cool, because, well, I would be cool. Vickie > > > (Men are pretty simple, by comparison. :-) > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Vickie And my friend would be Jake. Jake Ryan. Vickie >> > > (Men are pretty simple, by comparison. :-) >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > And my friend would be Jake. Jake Ryan. OMG, Vickie, you crack me up! Zorra > >> > > (Men are pretty simple, by comparison. :-) > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Good. :-) Vickie > And my friend would be Jake. Jake Ryan. LOL ... ya got the name thing to;-) What other qualifications are meandering around in that head regarding that "moment" in time when you are selected as the "1" that gets to become a guy? ;-) SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) > LOL ... ya got the name thing to;-) What other qualifications are > meandering around in that head regarding that "moment" in time when you > are selected as the "1" that gets to become a guy? ;-) Well, let's see. I would have an essence about me that would be seen as cool, calm, and collected. Not getting ruffled. I would know everything under the hood of a car; how it works and how to fix it. I would be an incredible joke-ster, extremely witty. Smarts, yes. My voice would be deep. I would use endearments a lot, but in a genuine way not condescending at all. I would be well endowed, wear boxer-briefs with cool sayings like - *This will fix all your problems*, and have an arrow pointing down (of course). Oh, and I could fight really well, but I wouldn't have to because, you see, everyone would just look at me- and *know*. And maybe some other stuff. Vickie > And maybe some other stuff. thank you ... ROFLMAO - brought on by your briefs..LOL SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) > > And maybe some other stuff. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" > My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) What? What did I say? :-) Vickie > > LOL ... ya got the name thing to;-) What other qualifications are > > meandering around in that head regarding that "moment" in time when you [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Vickie Do you really wish you could be a guy, or are you just joking around? Personally, I've never wanted to be a guy. I think it would totally suck. It is far more fun and interesting to be a woman, IMO! jen > > > LOL ... ya got the name thing to;-) What other qualifications are > > > meandering around in that head regarding that "moment" in time when you [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Hmmm. I think I would like it. If all the pieces fit together, I mean. Cause you know, I really *like* men! LOL! But of course I am thinking of the *cool* aspects of being a man. The things I admire. Maybe if I grew up around men/boys I would see things differently. Don't really know. Vickie >> Do you really wish you could be a guy, or are you just joking around? >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Vickie Ok, I grew up with three brothers (no sisters), and I have four sons (no daughters), and I definitely would never ever want to be a guy. The mystery is pretty much gone LOL. I'm not a girly girl but I like being female! > >> Do you really wish you could be a guy, or are you just joking around? > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > - Show quoted text - There it is. No puzzle for you. LOL. Vickie >> >> Do you really wish you could be a guy, or are you just joking around? >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > There it is. No puzzle for you. LOL. > Vickie I'm often thankful that I haven't any daughters, because even though I am a female, other females and their behavior tend to baffle me, and I'd probably be a terrible mother to a little girl. >>>> LOL ... ya got the name thing to;-) What other qualifications are >>>> meandering around in that head regarding that "moment" in time when you [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Hmmm. I think I would like it. If all the pieces fit together, I > mean. Cause you know, I really *like* men! LOL! OK, we part here. I really *like* women (and YOU can have all the men you want, thank you very much!) > But of course I am > thinking of the *cool* aspects of being a man. The things I admire. Same here - but for women - certainly NOT men! > Maybe if I grew up around men/boys I would see things differently. > Don't really know. > > Vickie >>> LOL ... ya got the name thing to;-) What other qualifications are >>> meandering around in that head regarding that "moment" in time when you [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > jen I think you're right, too. You gals get much more of what's really important in life, out of life. But I wouldn't want to have to put up with all the stuff you gals do. >>> (Men are pretty simple, by comparison. :-) >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Vickie But men (stereotypically - but I think it's pretty universally true) miss out on the closeness of relationships and all the nice sharing of feelings that women have (and are encouraged to have) in society. On Jul 26, 9:25 pm, "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>> (Men are pretty simple, by comparison. :-) > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Feelings-schmeelings. I'm tired of having so many! I think God pushed the *feelings* button too many times when He created me! Must have been distracted or something, lol. Hey, I was reading this article on men and their friendships (trying to get the inside scoop on men and how they work:). It said men's friendships fall into 4 categories. The buddy, the fella, the poor schmuck, and the honorable friend. The buddy is a guy a man used to have as a closer friend, someone they used to hang with a lot, but now not so much anymore. But still when the buddy calls up the man will happily get together with buddy again. The fella is who the buddy used to be, a friend you spend the majority of you time with when not doing other stuff. The poor schmuck is the friend down on his luck and it is the closest time a man comes to expressing his feelings to a trusted fella. And the honorable man is the one who helps the poor schmuck out and can then feel safe enough to talk more in depth about stuff to schmuck. Any of this true, Bill? Vickie (sorry forget who wrote the article not trying to plagiarize) > Feelings-schmeelings. I'm tired of having so many! I think God > pushed the *feelings* button too many times when He created me! Must > have been distracted or something, lol. Feelings are good... its knowing they are "feelings", erratic at times, and that they come and go says you're pretty balanced and healthy. Maybe you're a bit to worrisome - but, that to changes with time. Sounds like there are two sides to your personality - side "one" has the feelings, causes the ruckus, is worrisome and child like. Side "two" posses understanding, practicality and maturity, and has the bigger job of protecting side one. :-) > It said men's friendships fall into 4 categories. The buddy, the > fella, the poor schmuck, and the honorable friend. My life has been filled with two types of "friends"; One --- we just hang out; yet talk about everything when needed, traveled together, and know each other really well. I have two married couples in this group; and the rest is made up of both men and women. (these are lifetime friendships) Two - the only thing we have in common might is a segment of time in our lives and probably a sport or two; we hang out, but seldom talk about important stuff ... only time will tell if this relationship evolves into "one." As to the categories - without knowing the premise behind which the "writer" wrote this book, these categories sound almost unhealthy! SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) > > Feelings-schmeelings. I'm tired of having so many! I think God > > pushed the *feelings* button too many times when He created me! Must [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > posses understanding, practicality and maturity, and has the bigger job > of protecting side one. :-) I would like side one without the worry. I understand regret and learn from it but, I want to stand more firm on my opinions, beliefs, and doings. Side 2? It pops up and I like it. Ok, no more about me. You people are probably already bored to tears! > > It said men's friendships fall into 4 categories. The buddy, the > > fella, the poor schmuck, and the honorable friend. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > As to the categories - without knowing the premise behind which the > "writer" wrote this book, these categories sound almost unhealthy! It was an article, sorry if I said book and misled. I remember he was saying he was sorry for his gender that this was the way things are. That it was too bad men are afraid to get deeper because of homophobia and something about the way women perceive them. Like a strength ideal or something. And also the long tradition of how men have behaved. Shoot, I forget, but something in that regards. I was trying to see the way men deal with relationships differently from women. I think I will keep looking. Vickie > > > Feelings-schmeelings. I'm tired of having so many! I think God > > > pushed the *feelings* button too many times when He created me! Must [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > I was trying to see the way men deal with relationships differently > from women. I think I will keep looking. I don't think the world is as simple as "women have relationships one way" and "men have relationships another way." Both women and men vary tremendously in what their relationships are like. So a better way to focus your question than "how do men and women behave in relationships?" might be "how do I behave in relationships?" and "how is it similar or different from the ways other people behave in relationships?" My most important friendship is the one I have with my wife. This falls into none of your 4 categories. But I'm not sure any of my other friendships fall into those categories either! On Jul 27, 10:01 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Feelings-schmeelings. I'm tired of having so many! I think God > > > > pushed the *feelings* button too many times when He created me! Must [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I know what you are saying. But I have a pretty decent understanding of how the majority of the way women behave in relationships, I am one you know, (wait, let me check one more time, yes, I see them:-) No you are right, the relationship with a SO does not fall into these categories. Oh, and they are not mine, by the bye. I am curious about how men think and what they do is all. And it might help me with my SO and raising my son. But, I think with your post and SD's that these were not quite accurate. Vickie > On Jul 27, 10:01 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > of how the majority of the way women behave in relationships, I am one > you know, (wait, let me check one more time, yes, I see them:-) I think you are missing the point of what I'm trying to say. You are assuming that women all behave alike, so that by knowing what you are like, you know what women in general are like. > No you are right, the relationship with a SO does not fall into these > categories. Oh, and they are not mine, by the bye. > > I am curious about how men think and what they do is all. And it > might help me with my SO and raising my son. Women are not alike, and neither are men. You can understand your husband better by understanding what he, as an individual, is like. Understanding him as an example of the large class of individuals called "men" won't get you so far, since we men aren't completely interchangeable. I would think instead about what different kinds of people are like (both men and women). Don't you have women friends who are not like you in some important ways? > But, I think with your post and SD's that these were not quite > accurate. They may be accurate for your husband, I don't know. They aren't accurate for me though. On Jul 27, 10:23 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Jul 27, 10:01 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > I think you are missing the point of what I'm trying to say. You are > assuming that women all behave alike, so that by knowing what you are > like, you know what women in general are like. No, I can see your point clearly. Tell me if I am wrong. Again you go back to generalizing. That *I* am saying- all men are alike and I can understand them by learning about one. And the same notion for women. You think I should not do that. Is that right? > > I am curious about how men think and what they do is all. And it > > might help me with my SO and raising my son. > Women are not alike, and neither are men. You can understand your > husband better by understanding what he, as an individual, is like. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > (both men and women). Don't you have women friends who are not like > you in some important ways? Of course. Though I see many similarities between myself and my friends. There is a foundation that men have that differs from women. At least I believe it. And the proof is in a lot of things. Here is an example. I was watching a show about trying to pick the right person to date. They started by asking a group of men the physical characteristics they like in a woman. All the men (a group of 20 or so) sat in front of a computer and detailed a woman's body (they did it alone, so no peer influence/ pressure). And every one of them wanted an hour-glass figure. Yes it varied. Some liked women with tremendous breast size, but proportionally, the hip size and the waist were a bit bigger to fit the breasts. Some liked average C breasts, but again, the waist and hips were in conjunction with the rest of the body. So it varied but the overall shape was the same. The psychologist deemed this because it was inherit in a man's mind that this is due to a woman curves being in relationship to a good breeder. And there is more. I will ask my husband on occasion, why does *son* do that! In regards to friends or such. And his honest reply is that is the way boys deal with it or think. We just started having these poker nights at the house. The men sometimes just seem on a different plane than the women. And I am not talking about subject matter. We all play together. The men agree on certain things, the women don't. And when the men argue they say the darndest things. Things that the women agree would hurt if another woman said the same to them. So it is the base of men that I am curious of. To learn to not push for things that go against a man or boys grain. Oh and it is interesting for me. Vickie > Here is an example. > I was watching a show about trying to pick the right person to date. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > that this is due to a woman curves being in relationship to a good > breeder. I watched that late last night! On PBS. I couldn't sleep. I was up until 3 AM watching that darn show. It was fascinating. The ideal women's figure was 32C-23-36. That's a classic pear shape, or is it Barbie's measurements??? Well, forget it for hipless wonders like myself. :-) But then they did the same test with women, and the women's ideal male shape was fit but not overly muscled - no body builder types. Except then when they did the real-life speed-dating experiment, this ideal went out the window entirely... all that mattered was height. The women, without exception, found the taller men the most attractive! Also there was the experiment with the kind of homely guy where they dressed him up first in jeans and tee-shirt, then in a nice, expensive- looking suit. He was voted more attractive in the suit, even though all the women claimed they didn't care about a man's income, status and wealth. I think the best part was that they loaded the speed-dating pool of men with a bunch of alt.seduction.fast experts... and all of them had no success. The women saw right through their manipulations - they were viewed as smarmy "arses." It was a fascinating show, of course now I'm paying for it, I'm soooo tired! jen > > Here is an example. > > I was watching a show about trying to pick the right person to date. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I watched that late last night! On PBS. I couldn't sleep. I was up > until 3 AM watching that darn show. It was fascinating. It was! I love that stuff! Too bad for the results though, uh? > The ideal women's figure was 32C-23-36. That's a classic pear shape, > or is it Barbie's measurements??? Well, forget it for hipless wonders > like myself. :-) I think not Barbie. I heard Barbie's were somewhere along the lines of 38D-18-33. > But then they did the same test with women, and the women's ideal male > shape was fit but not overly muscled - no body builder types. Except > then when they did the real-life speed-dating experiment, this ideal > went out the window entirely... all that mattered was height. The > women, without exception, found the taller men the most attractive! Yep! The height factor for men. Interesting stuff. > Also there was the experiment with the kind of homely guy where they > dressed him up first in jeans and tee-shirt, then in a nice, expensive- > looking suit. He was voted more attractive in the suit, even though > all the women claimed they didn't care about a man's income, status > and wealth. I forget that part. I watched the show about 5 months ago. > I think the best part was that they loaded the speed-dating pool of > men with a bunch of alt.seduction.fast experts... and all of them had > no success. The women saw right through their manipulations - they > were viewed as smarmy "arses." I liked the idea of dating someone with sort of the same face shape. Weird! That idea went to pot too. And I liked the little hidden meters under the tables. > It was a fascinating show, of course now I'm paying for it, I'm soooo > tired! Very cool show, yes. I know what you mean. You get really wrapped up in them. Did you see the one about prejudices. Where they grouped people with eye color. The blue eyed people were *supposed* to be smarter than the brown eyed. Man it does a number on your head. Vickie (try to take a nap!) [snip] >> But then they did the same test with women, and the women's ideal male >> shape was fit but not overly muscled - no body builder types. Except [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Yep! The height factor for men. Interesting stuff. I can't for the life of me see any physical pattern in the men I've loved. They've ranged from 6'5" (my very first boyfriend) to 5'6" (my current SO). From bald (or balding) -- several guys -- to more hair than me (current SO). I don't mean to say there aren't physical types I notice more than others. Just that when it's time to fall in love, I seem to use very different criteria! Barb >I can't for the life of me see any physical pattern in the men I've >loved. They've ranged from 6'5" (my very first boyfriend) to 5'6" (my >current SO). From bald (or balding) -- several guys -- to more hair >than me (current SO). Same here. Younger, older, same age. Balding, full head of curly hair, and average. Dark complected or fair. I do tend to like taller men, but that's only because I am quite tall and so I like someone at least in the same neighborhood as me. And I don't quite get the "suit" thing; I'm normally just not attracted to men in suits. Now give me a man in fitted jeans and cowboy boots (REAL boots, not something he bought to attend the Alan Jackson concert) and I'm gonna pay attention. Same thing with a guy in workboots and a hardhat with a toolbelt. I guess I tend to be attracted to men who look like they know how to fix things or do physical work. >I don't mean to say there aren't physical types I notice more than >others. Just that when it's time to fall in love, I seem to use very >different criteria! Same here. Funny, smart, and kind are the kinds of men that I'm interested in spending time with. SignatureLauri in WA >> I can't for the life of me see any physical pattern in the men I've >> loved. They've ranged from 6'5" (my very first boyfriend) to 5'6" (my [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > a toolbelt. I guess I tend to be attracted to men who look like they > know how to fix things or do physical work. You sexist, you! LOL. > I can't for the life of me see any physical pattern in the men I've > loved. They've ranged from 6'5" (my very first boyfriend) to 5'6" (my [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Barb I imagine that's because you have grown spiritually in-between or/and your needs have changed as you got older. - Michaela >>> Here is an example. >>> I was watching a show about trying to pick the right person to date. [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >> I think the best part was that they loaded the speed-dating pool of >> men with a bunch of alt.seduction.fast experts... The ASF system is designed to elicit a woman's values and to 'speak to' those. i.e. to "make her" feel good whilst in their company and anchor those feelings to them because we end up seeking out those whose company "makes us" feel happiest. Perhaps they weren't such "experts" or the women were aware they were being filmed or those guys weren't feeling that confident that evening or there weren't enough cues or the women had sufficient self esteem/self love/self acceptance not to fall for those particular lines/other. I don't understand that people don't think it works. If it didn't work, surely the advertising industry wouldn't have made the amount of money it has made? and all of them had >> no success. The women saw right through their manipulations - they >> were viewed as smarmy "arses." [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Vickie (try to take a nap!) A |
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