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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / August 2007Confession...
(the story I'm about to relate is entirely true...) My wife and I have been married for about 10 years now, no kids. I met her on the internet about 12 years ago, we knew each other for about 6 months before we met in real life, we traveled back and forth for about a year, and then we got married about a year later. About three years into the marriage I had an affair, at the time I really did love the other woman but I also loved my wife (or I thought I loved the both of them...). My wife and I worked it out, on the surface but to this day she still fears the other shoe falling. I continued to send email to the other woman until about 18 months ago, which the wife said she didn't mind since we were so far apart geographicaly (about 1200 miles). NOW in my heart I KNEW that wasn't the truth, in my heart I knew it was killing her little by little but I was too selfish to stop it. Then, about 18 months ago I took a look at our wedding photo, how happy my wife looked and I suddenly realized it had been QUITE some time since I'd seen her nearly as happy. She always wanted children, and it seems we can't have any. She always wanted a husband, and it seems I was never there for her. She says she's happy with her current life, but........I look at that wedding photo and I think she merely accepted it. Thanks for listening. > (the story I'm about to relate is entirely true...) > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Thanks for listening. So what do you want from us? For us to chastise you for being a cheater or give you words of approval and encouragement to continue with your ways? If what you posted here is real and you value your relationship at all, get on your knees, confess your issues to your spouse, and beg her to to go to counseling together. Then you set up counseling sessions for your problems. Otherwise, give her a divorce and let her get on with her life, possibly with someone who will give her the love, attention, and commitment she needs. You certainly haven't to this point. If you give her a divorce, please don't get into a committed relationship again. GGG  SignatureFailure isn't falling down, It's staying down. To contact me: GGGNH@yahoo.com >> (the story I'm about to relate is entirely true...) >> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > GGG What do I want from 'us' (you?). Not sure. Though I'm confused, words of encouragement to continue my behavior? Did you actually bother reading the entire post or did you skip around? I've been 'clean' for 18 months, and I can finally see the effect of my behavior on her. AND, there's nothing to confess (again, had you read the entire post) she knows that I had been keeping in touch with the other woman. In the post I stated we worked it out on the surface, which means she knows about everything. Thanks for the advice, but since you obviously didn't read the post I'm not sure why you bothered to respond. >>> (the story I'm about to relate is entirely true...) >>> [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > Thanks for the advice, but since you obviously didn't read the post > I'm not sure why you bothered to respond. I'm as hard on cheaters as anyone here. I simply have no sympathy for them. And although I might be falling for a con game on your part, of all the cheaters who've posted in Usenet for advice, at least in your case, I think you finally get it. I sense that you're not looking here for forgiveness for your betrayals (p.s., I don't like that you called a betrayal and 'affair'), or sympathy for your pain, but rather, you realize that you've caused the woman you love some very severe pain, and that you're focus is on trying to make her happy. IMHO, I'd do two things..... 1) The grand gesture. Do something spectacular that you know she'd never forget the rest of her life, and use that event to convey to her what you wrote in your post. Tell her that all that matters to you now and for the rest of your life is her happiness, and that you'll do whatever it takes to return her to the happiness she displayed in that wedding photo. 2) Follow up. Given the insecurities which you've made a part of her psyche, never do a thing that could ever play to those. It no longer matters if you think that this or that is perfectly innocent (of which you're probably a bad judge anyway), all that matters is whether or not whatever you might do might bother her, or give her pause to be concerned about your loyalty to her. Good luck. I wish you well, and hope you keep your eye on the ball. > >> In article <46cd1a90$0$18967$4c368...@roadrunner.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 107 lines] > > Good luck. I wish you well, and hope you keep your eye on the ball. 1. If your intention is to stay with your wife and change your ways....maybe ask her to marry you again in a romantic setting? 2. You said you cant have kids? Have you thought about adoption? >> >> In article <46cd1a90$0$18967$4c368...@roadrunner.com>, >> [quoted text clipped - 144 lines] > ways....maybe ask her to marry you again in a romantic setting? > 2. You said you cant have kids? Have you thought about adoption? You responded to the wrong poster. >> >> In article <46cd1a90$0$18967$4c368...@roadrunner.com>, >> [quoted text clipped - 111 lines] > ways....maybe ask her to marry you again in a romantic setting? > 2. You said you cant have kids? Have you thought about adoption? We've talked about adoption...she's not really in favor of it. She said she's always wanted to adopt a special needs child (and this is going to make me sound even worse) I don't have the temperment for that. I'm the youngest of two children and never have spent much time around kids, so I find that kind of daunting. Now, on the other hand, I wouldn't mind adopting a child from over seas. I'd ask my wife to marry me again...but sometimes...I'm afraid she'd say no... >>>> (the story I'm about to relate is entirely true...) >>>> [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > > Good luck. I wish you well, and hope you keep your eye on the ball. The Grand Gesture is what I'm looking for, I've started off with every day gestures. Being more involved in her hobbies, telling her I love her more often, letting her know that I miss her kissing me, letting her know that I miss the intimacy not just the sex. I've also tried to get her more involved in my hobbies (walking, MMORPG's) Its funny, I think when I started playing MMORPG's with married couples is when I realized what an a.s I've been. > >>>> (the story I'm about to relate is entirely true...) > >>>> [quoted text clipped - 96 lines] > Its funny, I think when I started playing MMORPG's with married couples is > when I realized what an a.s I've been. The Grand Gesture _sounds_ like a nice idea, but my advice is "know your audience." My wife, for example, would be impossible to impress with a grand gesture. But even for less cynical couples than my beloved and me, one person's grand gesture is another person's silly extravagance. > The Grand Gesture _sounds_ like a nice idea, but my advice > is "know your audience." > My wife, for example, would be impossible to impress with > a grand gesture. But even for less cynical couples than my > beloved and me, one person's grand gesture is another > person's silly extravagance. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If my wife were to present me with a grand-gesture my initial reaction would be to look for the CC slips and spend the next few hours rejiggering our budget. Oh, joy! :-/ However, I think that a /grand/ gestures can be accomplished in subtle, less "grand" ways, like... taking on a household chore that your spouse was used to doing, some date-type nights out, a cultural activity that they like but you don't, or a weekend getaway. Of course, there's the old stand-by, cook a special meal. As the old expression goes, "The way to a [person's] heart is thu their [cholesterol]." But you don't want to overdo it, 'cuz then they might be a tad suspicious that you'd done something wrong. =R= =R= > > The Grand Gesture _sounds_ like a nice idea, but my advice > > is "know your audience." [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > reaction would be to look for the CC slips and spend the next > few hours rejiggering our budget. Oh, joy! :-/ Yes - that's the kind of reaction I'd be afraid of. The "First he stabs me in the heart, then he blows our retirement money!" reaction. > However, I think that a /grand/ gestures can be accomplished > in subtle, less "grand" ways, like... taking on a household chore [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > =R= >> The Grand Gesture _sounds_ like a nice idea, but my advice >> is "know your audience." [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > =R= For me, the less grand and the more *real* the better. Some of the ways my husband tells me how special I am include - bringing me flowers when I have had a bad day - IMing me a couple of times during the day to see how I am doing (I am at home with a bucket load of small children all day) - taking the commute home to unwind and walking in the door ready to help be Dad and co-homemaker recognizing that I had a full workday too. - Looking me in the eye when we speak stuff like that >>> The Grand Gesture _sounds_ like a nice idea, but my advice >>> is "know your audience." [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > too. > - Looking me in the eye when we speak I have a friend whose husband goes for the grand gesture. What makes them so special is not the expense, but the thought, effort, and imagination. Things he's done? He rented a sporty convertible and a hotel room in town to turn a regular weekend into a mini-vacation (even arranged sitting for the kids!). He turned their house into Italy with a menu and a choice of Italian dishes, which he prepared, music, decor, even redid the bedroom in the colors of the Italian flag (Italy has meaning for them). He covered the house in fresh greens one Christmas. He recreated an indoor picnic under the stars -- that involved painting a starry night scene on a bedsheet and ....somehow rigging lights up to it? I can't remember what else. Now, honestly I sometimes think that it's a lot of expense, and not worth it. But he does these things at random, not connected to any event like an anniversary. I think that if once or twice a year I came home to find out that my guy had been thinking about me? Had put in all that effort to make me happy? No, a grand gesture wouldn't make up for months of neglect, but if done on top of regular thoughtfulness, I think it can take your breath away. Zorra >>>> The Grand Gesture _sounds_ like a nice idea, but my advice >>>> is "know your audience." [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > involved painting a starry night scene on a bedsheet and ....somehow > rigging lights up to it? I can't remember what else. Wow. I think that's pretty damn good! Impressive! > Now, honestly I sometimes think that it's a lot of expense, and not > worth it. But he does these things at random, not connected to any [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Zorra >>>> The Grand Gesture _sounds_ like a nice idea, but my advice >>>> is "know your audience." [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Zorra Right on. >Now, honestly I sometimes think that it's a lot of expense, and not >worth it. But he does these things at random, not connected to any [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >make up for months of neglect, but if done on top of regular >thoughtfulness, I think it can take your breath away. LOL, I'm a cynic. I would think it meant that he just wanted to get laid. SignatureLauri in WA >>Now, honestly I sometimes think that it's a lot of expense, and not >>worth it. But he does these things at random, not connected to any [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > LOL, I'm a cynic. I would think it meant that he just wanted to get > laid. LOL -- aww, but he could probably get laid scratching his belly and saying, "Hey babe, wanna wreck the bed?" Zorra >> LOL, I'm a cynic. I would think it meant that he just wanted to get >> laid. > >LOL -- aww, but he could probably get laid scratching his belly and >saying, "Hey babe, wanna wreck the bed?" Yeah, depending on who he was and how I felt towards him. :-) SignatureLauri in WA >>> LOL, I'm a cynic. I would think it meant that he just wanted to >>> get [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yeah, depending on who he was and how I felt towards him. :-) Lol -- well, this particular guy could probably get it from his wife without the grand gestures, so the grand gestures are just a bonus. Zorra >>>Now, honestly I sometimes think that it's a lot of expense, and not >>>worth it. But he does these things at random, not connected to any [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Zorra I'm DEAD sexy! >> Now, honestly I sometimes think that it's a lot of expense, and not >> worth it. But he does these things at random, not connected to any [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > LOL, I'm a cynic. I would think it meant that he just wanted to get > laid. Ha! But that is a good thing. (Especially if he asks so prettily!) :) I think Zorra's friends sound like they have sweet relationship and while I feel sort of guilty I don't do stuff like that I certainly would like some of the gestures which involve maximum effort and moderate expense, since I'm in the camp of those who would start figuring out the effects of the gesture on our bank balance almost as my gasp of delighted (alright, incredulous) surprise let my lungs. I'd absolutely hate the kind of grand, extravagant gesture that came hot on the heels of some awful marriage threatening action. Imagine being swept away to a romantic tropical location by a spouse who you'd rather stamp on in hob-nailed boots than let touch you. Little and frequent good deeds would be much more efficacious in the long term! >>> Now, honestly I sometimes think that it's a lot of expense, and not >>> worth it. But he does these things at random, not connected to any [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > stamp on in hob-nailed boots than let touch you. Little and frequent good > deeds would be much more efficacious in the long term! efficacious I am yours forever. That is a Good WORD! > "Tai" <tainuitiDELETE@gmail.com.invalid> wrote in message [...] >> I'd absolutely hate the kind of grand, extravagant gesture that came >> hot on the heels of some awful marriage threatening action. Imagine [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I am yours forever. That is a Good WORD! LOL I'm on a roll with you today, I think. (Thank you!) Words are fun and some are funner than others. They are also pesky slippery things that often won't do what I want them to! >> "Tai" <tainuitiDELETE@gmail.com.invalid> wrote in message > [...] [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I'm on a roll with you today, I think. (Thank you!) You're my hero, really. That's all there is too it. > Words are fun and some are funner than others. They are also pesky > slippery things that often won't do what I want them to! >You're my hero, really. That's all there is too it. Tai is the wind beneath my wings. SignatureLauri in WA >> You're my hero, really. That's all there is too it. > > Tai is the wind beneath my wings. I'm glad you didn't say "tail feathers"! :รพ Ladies, I am touched. Thank you, both. >The Grand Gesture _sounds_ like a nice idea, but my advice is "know >your audience." > >My wife, for example, would be impossible to impress with a grand >gesture. But even for less cynical couples than my beloved and me, >one person's grand gesture is another person's silly extravagance. Yeah, and there isn't a Grand Gesture in the world that could make up for a betrayal of that magnitude. At least not for me. I don't know that I personally could ever forgive my spouse for having an affair because I don't think I'm a big enough person to let go of that kind of hurt and to be able to trust again. So IF a person were to be able to become trustworthy again, to me, it would be through showing me with every action, large and small, that he understands the depth of his betrayal and is behaving in a trustworthy way. SignatureLauri in WA >>The Grand Gesture _sounds_ like a nice idea, but my advice is "know >>your audience." [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >with every action, large and small, that he understands the depth of >his betrayal and is behaving in a trustworthy way. For me, I think whether or not I could forgive an affair would depend a lot on what that affair consisted of.... a one night moment of stupidity? A continued sexual relationship? An emotional relationship that meant something? The last one, I don't think I could forgive. The others... maybe. I don't know. But regardless, a grand gesture would be the last thing that would put me on the road to forgiveness. It would have to be a day by day thing, and it would have to involve actions of trust, and things that actively worked to build the marriage. >For me, I think whether or not I could forgive an affair would depend >a lot on what that affair consisted of.... a one night moment of >stupidity? A continued sexual relationship? An emotional >relationship that meant something? The last one, I don't think I >could forgive. The others... maybe. I don't know. I couldn't forgive any of it. It's all equal to me. One night of stupidity is still a conscious decision to betray. SignatureLauri in WA >>For me, I think whether or not I could forgive an affair would depend >>a lot on what that affair consisted of.... a one night moment of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I couldn't forgive any of it. It's all equal to me. One night of >stupidity is still a conscious decision to betray. I guess, when you get right down to it, an act of sex means almost nothing to me. An act of love, a gift of emotions, is something else. But that's me. >>>For me, I think whether or not I could forgive an affair would depend >>>a lot on what that affair consisted of.... a one night moment of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >nothing to me. An act of love, a gift of emotions, is something else. >But that's me. Wow. Well, I guess sex still has some meaning for me. SignatureLauri in WA >>>>For me, I think whether or not I could forgive an affair would depend >>>>a lot on what that affair consisted of.... a one night moment of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Wow. Well, I guess sex still has some meaning for me. Well, it's not really that sex has no meaning, exactly! I have no idea how to explain what I mean... and I suppose that it's just a personal thing. I don't know. I've sure slept with people in my life and had it mean absolutely nothing whatsoever.... and occasionally I've done things that I seriously regret, because of weird circumstances or excessive alcohol or whatever, although these things are very far in the past. These things happen. I wouldn't turn my life over for it, and I probably wouldn't even feel particularly betrayed. What I would feel betrayed by is a continuing affair that involved my husband actually caring about someone else... in part because I know that he'd say exactly what I said above about the relative importance of sex, but it would mean something entirely and horribly different if it were an emotional thing. I don't think I could ever get past that. > I can't stand in her shoes, but I think that for me, it'd also be > a deal breaker. I'm not totally in the camp that says, "Once [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I couldn't forgive any of it. It's all equal to me. One night of > stupidity is still a conscious decision to betray. Wow some of you folks have really harsh standards. Even good people make mistakes. Expecting perfection from someone is not healthy. I contend that if your spouse sleeps with someone else, you were likely somehow involved. Either not providing a loving home environment, by emotionally stranding him or her, or something. Affairs and betrayals do not usually happen if the relationship is healthy. You are focusing on the step past the line, while ignoring your role in pushing your spouse to the line. I am not playing blame the victim here. I believe that some people who cheat really do have something wrong with them (sex addiction perhaps), but many are just the ones who took that step past the line. A little introspection is important. Learning to see your own role in your marital problems is important. Blaming the one who stepped over the line. I like blaming the straw that broke the camel's back. I recommend that you read "Hw good do we have to be" by Harold S. Kushner. T >Wow some of you folks have really harsh standards. > >Even good people make mistakes. A mistake is scratching the car or forgetting to get milk on the way home or buying a plaid sofa that coordinates with nothing. An affair involves a series of conscious decisions to betray one's spouse. One does not "mistakenly" find oneself naked in a hotel room with someone of the opposite sex; it involves decisions and intent and selfishness. SignatureLauri in WA > A mistake is scratching the car or forgetting to get milk on > the way home or buying a plaid sofa that coordinates with > nothing. An affair involves a series of conscious decisions > to betray one's spouse. One does not "mistakenly" find > oneself naked in a hotel room with someone of the opposite > sex; it involves decisions and intent and selfishness. Excellent summation. I think it's a hoot when I hear someone say something like "I couldn't help myself" or "We didn't mean for it to happen," or some such BS. Yes, they did. They may have poor impulse control issue, but what they really lack is a conscience. =R= > > A mistake is scratching the car or forgetting to get milk on > > the way home or buying a plaid sofa that coordinates with [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > have poor impulse control issue, but what they really lack is a > conscience. =R= Rog, This is not right on so many levels. Consider the case of a woman who is emotionally abused by her husband. She tries to get help, tries to get them into couples therapy. The abuse continues. At some point she has an affair. It's not good that she had an affair. She probably should have just divorced the guy. But the point is, he is not an innocent victim of her lack of conscience. He carried her to the line, then shoved her across it. Simply blaming her for having an affair does not help the relationship. In order to fix the relationship, he needs to acknowledge his role--not just point at her and say "She's the one who crossed the line." In fact, he carried her to the line and pushed her across it, but he has the "moral high ground" because... Abuse is ok, but affairs aren't?? By the way, people with addictions CAN'T help themselves. That's why it's an addiction. When I talk about mistakes, it's not "Oops I messed up." It's more like "Damn, I screwed up." As you rightly point out, affairs are not accidents. They are typically a series of conscious decisions. They are still a mistake. I'm using mistake in the sense of error, not accident. T >> A mistake is scratching the car or forgetting to get milk on >> the way home or buying a plaid sofa that coordinates with [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > have poor impulse control issue, but what they really lack is a > conscience. =R= You sound like an old fogie. You're just expecting too much of people these days. Clearly you too are also fallin behind the times. > >Wow some of you folks have really harsh standards. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > does not "mistakenly" find oneself naked in a hotel room with someone > of the opposite sex; it involves decisions and intent and selfishness. You're confusing mistake and accident. Mistakes CAN be willful and do not necessarily come as individual acts. Nonetheless, your perfectionism is not healthy, and the rest of my original post stands. There is still usually a series of mistakes made by both partners that leads to the affair. You're focusing on just that last straw. T >> >Wow some of you folks have really harsh standards. >> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >by both partners that leads to the affair. You're focusing on just that >last straw. I'm not perfectionistic. I know that people make mistakes, and I make tons of them myself. Nobody is perfect. But an affair is NOT a mistake. It is a conscious decision to cheat, and no matter what one's spouse does, it is never justified. Your attitude, to me, seems one step away from blaming the partner. I personally don't believe that someone can be "driven" to have an affair by their partner. If your partner is such a horrible person that you want to be with someone else, then leave and find someone else. Don't cheat and then call it it a justified mistake. And no, I am not confusing "accident" and "mistake". Just because you disagree with my position does not mean that I am confused. SignatureLauri in WA > >> >Wow some of you folks have really harsh standards. > >> > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > one's spouse does, it is never justified. Your attitude, to me, seems > one step away from blaming the partner. You are looking at this ina very black and white manner. As though everything that happened before the affair was ok, then the affair happened, therefore, the person who crossed the line is the bad guy. I think there are cases where someone will be in a happy relationship, then drop the affair bomb out of nowhere. In those cases there may be mental health (e.g. sex addiction) issues. In the (probably) more normal case, the two partners have been pushing each other away with patterns of abuse and neglect. An affair is a mistake because it hurts the relationship and represents essentially a passive aggressive attack on one's spouse. Regardless of intent, that is a mistake. In affairs in almost all cases, both partners played a role in taking the relationship to that point. There is ALWAYS contribution by both partners. Blaming the cheater is not a useful way to move a relationship forward, nor is blaming the "victim." Trying to understand each partner's contribution might allow the relationship to continue. Read SwissMiss' notes about how her husband responded to her online infidelities if you want to see a concrete example of this. Read the book "After the Affair" if you want to understand more about the role of blame after an affair. I wrote about contribution on my blog as well with some links and references. http://emotionsforengineers.blogspot.com/2007/07/contribution-to-problems .html > I personally don't believe > that someone can be "driven" to have an affair by their partner. If > your partner is such a horrible person that you want to be with > someone else, then leave and find someone else. Don't cheat and then > call it it a justified mistake. I am not in any way defending affairs. They are in my opinion morally wrong. The problem with them though is not the morality, but that they represent the final straw of one partner running away from the conflict in the relationship. They can be a mistake, but I do not see justification for an affair either. Before leaving a marriage I would prefer to see some joint therapy, but I do agree with you, don't do an affair. Leave or stay. Affairs do not accomplish anything. The nature of that conflict and what brings someone to that brink is different in all relationships. The one thing you know is that both partners were involved. > And no, I am not confusing "accident" and "mistake". Just because you > disagree with my position does not mean that I am confused. This is not about your position, it is the definition of the word mistake. Mistakes can be done willfully. You're saying that if something is intentional it is therefore not a mistake. That is a wrong definition of the word mistake. If a chess player moves his queen to an exposed position, then realizes it was a stupid move, it's a mistake. <snip> > Read SwissMiss' notes about how her husband responded to her online > infidelities if you want to see a concrete example of this. Thank you for bringing this up, T. My husband has been incredibly wonderful. It's not important to him to nurse his wounds and hurt feelings and to make me suffer w/ shame, blame and guilt. He sses a problem in the relationship and sees that his life partner, whom he loves and made a commitment to to love, honor and cherish in sickness and in health has stumbled and lost her way and is in trouble and painful conflict. His only concern is to figure out what the problem is and how it can be fixed, and what he can do. I wish everyone could be married to someone as good as he is. Several people who know the story (including a poster here) has remarked that he can't be as "OK" w/ this as he appears to be. He's got to be angry and hurt inside and somehow it will come out. My therapist said as much in our last session. But when I've talked to him, he says it's really true...he's not angry and he has no desire to see me suffer any more than I am already. And I believe him because I know him and this is how he is. What I did is terrible and there's no justification for it. My remorse is very deep and it's painful. But my husband believes he holds some responsibility in what happened. He recalls that we talked several months ago and I told him I felt unhappy that we had grown distant and that the relationship lacked passion. He said he now feels he didn't pay enough attention to what I was saying. We've had "cooler" periods in our marriage before and I just toughed it out. But this time, I was especially vulnerable due to the physical and emotional changes going on w/ me related to change of life. He didn't see this and thus he didn't take warning signs seriously enough. These are his words, not mine. Now we are taking active steps to strengthen our bond, restore the relationship to where it was when it was at its strongest, and to help me get stronger so I'm not vulnerable to relapse. Having said all that, I do want to underscore that there are infidelity situations where the actions are very one-sided. These are habitual adulterers who see nothing wrong with it, feel entitled to other partners or flirtations, romantic forays, whatever, and it's completely irrespective of the partner at home. As you say, T, these are probably addicts...or just morally lax people who feel entitled to access to whatever appeals to them, despite marital commitment. There are such people. But as you say, things are rarely black and white. People are so much more complex than that. Swiss replace yoohoo with yahoo to email > Several people who know the story (including a poster here) has remarked > that he can't be as "OK" w/ this as he appears to be. He's got to be angry > and hurt inside and somehow it will come out. My therapist said as much in > our last session. But when I've talked to him, he says it's really > true...he's not angry and he has no desire to see me suffer any more than I > am already. And I believe him because I know him and this is how he is. I guess I feel I should address this since i think I might the the other poster you are referring to. I obviously am not doing a good job of getting my point across, so I guess I will attempt it on more time I hopes that you understand what I'm saying. My point is not that your husband is secretly seething inside and is not telling you that there is hidden emotion, rather he might not realize that there is, and won't for quite some time. Then again maybe he won't, I'm just telling you to be supportive if it does happen (I think that's what the therapist is saying too). Your description of your husbands reaction mirrors my wifes also, as a matter of fact it kind of bothered me at the time because I felt she really should be more pissed and punish me more for my actions. She instead recognized that our marriage was on a bad track, and like your husband admitted her role in it and together with me took the steps to remedy the situation. Fast forward a couple of years, and things are still wonderful, although sometimes the results of my betrayal surface in unexpected ways. Never in anger, never thrown back in my face, but more below the surface. An overreaction to a benign situation, maybe her jumping to conclusions more than she did before, it's hard to quantize, but its there, and I'm aware of it. We both recognized it and decided to get back into couples therapy, more preventative than anything else. I've come to realize that it's by no means conscious, but most of that has its roots in my infidelity, it isn't payback on her part, but just the way she has reacted to it and I need to be supportive and understanding of it. So what I was trying to give you was a cautionary tale, in the weeks after my affair coming to light, I sounded much like you did, "I can't believe how wonderfully my wife is taking this, she's great". I'm telling you that if you don't think that your actions will ever have any effect on your husbands way of looking at you and the world, your probably mistaken. I'm with your therapist on this one. > > Swiss Miss wrote: >> Several people who know the story (including a poster here) has remarked [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> I >> am already. And I believe him because I know him and this is how he is. > I guess I feel I should address this since i think I might the the > other poster you are referring to. You are. But I wasn't criticizing you. > I obviously am not doing a good > job of getting my point across, so I guess I will attempt it on more > time in hopes that you understand what I'm saying. I think I did. > My point is not that your husband is secretly seething inside and is > not telling you that there is hidden emotion, rather he might not > realize that there is, and won't for quite some time. Then again > maybe he won't, I'm just telling you to be supportive if it does > happen (I think that's what the therapist is saying too). I understood what you were saying, and I will be supportive if he shows emotions later that stem from fallout. > Your description of your husband's reaction mirrors my wife's also, as a > matter of fact it kind of bothered me at the time because I felt she > really should be more pissed and punish me more for my actions. She > instead recognized that our marriage was on a bad track, and like your > husband admitted her role in it and together with me took the steps to > remedy the situation. I'm glad for you. I'm glad your wife handled it so well. > Fast forward a couple of years, and things are still wonderful, > although sometimes the results of my betrayal surface in unexpected > ways. Never in anger, never thrown back in my face, but more below > the surface. An overreaction to a benign situation, maybe her jumping > to conclusions more than she did before, it's hard to quantize, but > its there, and I'm aware of it. I see what you're saying. I realize that could be an issue. The fabric of trust in the relationship has been torn and needs ime to mend. Even when it appears to be mended, the remnant of the tear will always be there. It's part of our history now. > We both recognized it and decided to > get back into couple's therapy, more preventative than anything else. > I've come to realize that it's by no means conscious, but most of that > has its roots in my infidelity, it isn't payback on her part, but just > the way she has reacted to it and I need to be supportive and > understanding of it. It's great you can do that. I'm confident I can do that too. > So what I was trying to give you was a cautionary tale, in the weeks > after my affair coming to light, I sounded much like you did, "I can't > believe how wonderfully my wife is taking this, she's great". I'm > telling you that if you don't think that your actions will ever have > any effect on your husband's way of looking at you and the world, you're > probably mistaken. I'm with your therapist on this one. My therapist thinks he must be hiding or suppressing anger, hurt and feelings of betrayal. I don't think he is. He's been very open about his feelings. I realize the trust in the relationship has been strained, and I need to earn his trust back before he will feel completely safe about things w/ me again. If I see that coming up as a problem, I agree w/ you....I would look into marriage counseling. Swiss Miss replace yoohoo with yahoo to email (snip) > > Fast forward a couple of years, and things are still wonderful, > > although sometimes the results of my betrayal surface in unexpected [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > appears to be mended, the remnant of the tear will always be there. It's > part of our history now. That's a good metaphor, I think. Even when mended there will be scars. In my own marriage, there were things that happened relatively early on that left scars. At the time, I dealt with them and didn't feel like I had any residual anger. Nevertheless, when many years later our marriage went through a very difficult period (nothing to do with infidelity) I found these issues resurfacing and I felt a lot of emotional turmoil as our difficult present made me reevaluate our past. Of course the events from our early marriage that I'm referring to were not infidelities, and so were different from what you and your husband are going through (they also aren't mine to talk about, which is why I'm being vague), but I think the principle is similar. >(snip) > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >husband are going through (they also aren't mine to talk about, which >is why I'm being vague), but I think the principle is similar. When things happen, whatever they are, you can't ever go back to the time before they happened. They always leave scars and furrows and lines and tracings. The good things, too. But it's like the first time you realize that your spouse/friend/child/boss/whoever has lied to you... you can't even go back to the kind of certainty you had before it happened. All you can do is build layer after layer of different experience on top of it, but the cracks are still there, and so when there are stresses again, they reopen, or at least you feel the echoes. > My therapist thinks he must be hiding or suppressing anger, hurt and > feelings of betrayal. I don't think he is. He's been very open about his > feelings. I think maybe this is where I (and your therapist to a degree) is loosing you. One does not even need to be aware that they are surpressing emotions, heck if you asked my wife a couple years ago, she wouldn't have been aware of of any underlying emotion, she was so busy trying to rebuild what needed fixing. I like what Nina wrote about our present self can't help but be influenced by passed experience, especially significant events. It sounds like you are aware of this, and that was the only point I was trying to make. Good luck, and count yourself lucky (as do I) that you married someone who is willing to give you a chance to build back that trust . Like you I would take back the pain if possible, but the best I can hope to keep moving forward and learning from the past. > I think maybe this is where I (and your therapist to a degree) am > losing you. One does not even need to be aware that they are > supressing emotions; heck if you asked my wife a couple years ago, > she wouldn't have been aware of of any underlying emotion, she was so > busy trying to rebuild what needed fixing. The definition of supression is that one is not aware of the underlying feelings. If he or she was aware, the emotions would not be supressed. I talked to my husband more about this last night and he said he thinks if we're careful to keep channels of communication open from now and keep talking honestly, we can avoid a lot of future problems along these lines. He also said in general he trusts me implicity. My record of openness and honesty before this is excellent. He's had little reason not to trust me. He said if he sees behaviors cropping up again, like excessive time on the internet or secretive/suspicious behavior, he's going to worry and confront me. But that's as it should be. What I've learned is there's always a potential for relapse with this kind of thing, so he should be vigilant and ready to confront me if he sees anything that concerns him. > I like what Nina wrote about our present self can't help but be > influenced by past experience, especially significant events. It > sounds like you are aware of this, and that was the only point I was > trying to make. Yes, I do get it. > Good luck, and count yourself lucky (as do I) that you married someone > who is willing to give you a chance to build back that trust . Like > you I would take back the pain if possible, but the best I can hope to > keep moving forward and learning from the past. I agree. It's all you can do. In talking to my husband last night, I apologized again for hurting him, and he said as far as he sees it, I got hurt far worse than he did when it comes down to it. He said the worst of his pain was seeing the damage and hurt this thing has caused me. Swiss replace yoohoo with yahoo to email >>Wow some of you folks have really harsh standards. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > of the opposite sex; it involves decisions and intent and > selfishness. I agree with this, but I think that even within affairs there are degrees of seriousness. For example, the one and only affair that I had a front row seat to watch was a bad one. The two people involved engaged in a months' long courtship. They did so even after being warned (by me, perhaps by others) that they were engaging in dangerous behavior. They continued the affair despite public condemnation. They plotted for over a year to make sure the divorce would be as favorable to her as possible -- this included her moving with her husband to a different state with more favorable laws after the husband had discovered the affair, and pretending that she was going with him to rededicate herself to the marriage. There was more -- for example, the guy purposely pursued a friendship with the husband to allay any suspicions the husband might have had. He also kept dating his girlfriend for several months for the same reason. All of this is things the guy himself admitted to me, so it's not speculation on my part. When I compare that to a one night weakness, whether alcohol was involved or not, they just don't seem to be in the same universe. I could perhaps forgive the one night fling. The affair I described above -- well, I guess forgiveness is moot since they intended from very early in their relationship that she would divorce and be with her lover -- but if it had come anywhere close to that and for some reason my spouse decided to stay with me after all, I just don't see how I could ever get over that kind of calculated betrayal. I'm not *sure* I could forgive the one night fling either, but I think I could. I imagine I could at least. Zorra >>>Wow some of you folks have really harsh standards. >>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >I'm not *sure* I could forgive the one night fling either, but I think >I could. I imagine I could at least. That's it for me, too. Here's a story. Years ago I used to do this exam grading thing that required that you go to a college in another city and grade exams all day every day for about a week. I used to do that every year, and I had a lot of good once-a-year friends, people I'd known for years. After grading all day, people used to drink like fishes until all hours of the morning. One time, everyone was in my room because the lounge had closed, and my room was closer than anyone else's. It was late night, and eventually everyone left except one (male) friend of mine to whom I was talking. And there was that moment of both of us thinking, something could happen here. I was married (although my marriage was long on the rocks), he was married (no clue about the state of that), and I seriously think that the only reason that something *didn't* happen was we were just too exhausted and drunk. He fell asleep on one twin bed (it was a dorm room), I fell asleep on the other, and that was that. If something had happened, there would have been (1) no premeditation (not someone who I had ever thought of in that way), (2) no series of real choices that led to this (the fact that we were alone in my room was coincidental), and (3) a staggering lapse of good judgement that would have been a totally embarrassing thing for years to come. It would have been a *mistake*. A really stupid one, but nothing more, nothing less. I wouldn't end a marriage over something like that, and really, I wouldn't even find it that hard to forgive. The story above... totally different can of worms. Some people are very black and white about this, which is totally fine. It's not my big issue, but there are things that I *am* totally black and white about. This one, I see a lot of shades of gray on. > On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 11:00:26 -0400, "zorra" <zorra2@comcast.net> >>When I compare that to a one night weakness, whether alcohol was [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > totally > black and white about. This one, I see a lot of shades of gray on. Right -- it would have been a wrong thing to do, but *not* the thing that killed the marriage. Zorra > >>Wow some of you folks have really harsh standards. > >> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Zorra Great example of betrayal and manipulation. Isn't there a movie like this? I guess with these things you really need to look at all the circumstances around it. T >> I agree with this, but I think that even within affairs there are >> degrees of seriousness. For example, the one and only affair that [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > T LOL -- wouldn't surprise me, it's an age old story. But this one is a completely true story. Zorra >>>Wow some of you folks have really harsh standards. >>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > with me after all, I just don't see how I could ever get over that kind of > calculated betrayal. Now THAT is a nausiating story! > I'm not *sure* I could forgive the one night fling either, but I think I > could. I imagine I could at least. > > Zorra Where I come from, a one night stand wouldn't even BE a betrayal, depending on who the person was and how he knew her. >>For me, I think whether or not I could forgive an affair would depend >>a lot on what that affair consisted of.... a one night moment of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I couldn't forgive any of it. It's all equal to me. One night of >stupidity is still a conscious decision to betray. I agree. I wouldn't accept it. If one vow is broken like that, the rest will likely fall apart eventually anyway. When one person looks the other in the eyes and promises to cherish, protect, etc. and to forsake others, and then turns around and breaks those promises, i see no reason to continue living a lie. Breaking marriage vows, IMO, ends the union and bond that was made on the wedding day. I see cheating as an extremely evil act. There's no excuse for it. >>> For me, I think whether or not I could forgive an affair would depend >>> a lot on what that affair consisted of.... a one night moment of [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I see cheating as an extremely evil act. > There's no excuse for it. Hear! Hear! You too must be fallin behind the times a bit, though! It's joked about today as if it's nothing. Probably because it has become more "acceptable" these days. The stigma just ain't there nah more!! (nor is the Scarlet Letter) > >>For me, I think whether or not I could forgive an affair would depend > >>a lot on what that affair consisted of.... a one night moment of [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I see cheating as an extremely evil act. > There's no excuse for it. Evil is in the eyes of the beholder. Two wrongs don't make a right. I agree that having an affair with someone outside the marital relationship is hurtful to the relationship. So does that mean if one person doesn't feel cherished or protected the marriage is over too. What if someone has an affair in response to abuse. Isn't abuse evil? Maybe the marriage vows didn't specifically state "to not abuse" or "to not beat you," but those are implicit in the marriage contract. Many people in this NG seem to be putting an affair above all other transgressions. As I have been saying, an affair is NOT ok, but it is just one more step in the path to the destruction of a marital relationship. If you actually want to fix the relationship, and not just be in the right, you need to get past the finger pointing and work on the root causes. However, if being in the right and divorced is what floats your boat, have at it. T >Two wrongs don't make a right. You provide this line "Two wrongs don't make a right." I'll provide the meaning - when it's concluded "for what ever reason" the marriage is failing to meet one or both parties expectations - that doesn't automatically make an affair right... in-fact - IT'S WRONG, even if one has been physically abused. What's interesting about the abuse aspect is almost all the abused people I've directly encountered are NOT emotionally capable of an affair of any kind; leading me to question the seriousness of the "abuse" accusation AND affair. I know "physical" abuse well since I've been involved in funding 3 abuse prevention homes. > As I have been saying, an affair is NOT ok, but it is > just one more step in the path to the destruction of a marital > relationship. Again, someone doing something wrong (say abuse) doesn't mean the other can do something wrong back, like "have an affair." Reason I find your verbiage in this post a tell; especially when you type "but it is just one more step in the path to the destruction." Almost as though its "ok" to some extent. Then you use the words "What if someone has an affair in response to abuse"; and "NOT ok", seemingly allowing tit for tat behavior; short of saying wrong! Overall your post reads as though you can't, won't or don't want to tell the flat out difference between right and wrong behavior and live by those rules. >Many people in this NG seem to be putting an affair above all other >transgressions. I suspect a great many ASM posters have lost marriages to affairs; and some probably still live in the shadows even after remarrying. It also wouldn't surprise me to learn many have multiple marriages. SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) >> Two wrongs don't make a right. > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > type "but it is just one more step in the path to the destruction." > Almost as though its "ok" to some extent. But that's where we are today! (Welcome aboard the good ship Lollipop, laddie). But I have a confession to make. Personally, I just love all the societal "progress" we have made. It truly is stellar. > >Two wrongs don't make a right. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I know "physical" abuse well since I've been involved in funding 3 abuse > prevention homes. I'm struggling with this. Does that mean I know what it is like to be homeless since I give money to homeless shelters? I think there is an error in believing that giving money by itself means you know something well. >> >Two wrongs don't make a right. >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > you > know something well. I volunteered for many months at a homeless shelter, making sandwiches for the outreach van and serving meals at the shelter. It proved to me that I knew *nothing* of what it was like to be homeless! I had to leave my voluteer position at the battered women's shelter because I knew I never could understand and *really* empathize with the lack of self-esteem, the despair, the lack of power that winds you up in that place of accepting physical abuse. And I could never ever ever understand how a person could attempt ownership, and perpetuate such evil hurt on another person. I was so floored by my lack of understanding that I was no help whatsoever to those women. Anyway, if you did not grasp that, I concur. > I volunteered for many months at a homeless shelter, making sandwiches for > the outreach van and serving meals at the shelter. It proved to me that I > knew *nothing* of what it was like to be homeless! Guess you lack the psychology education and almost years of related experience ... Not surprising. The sad part - a few of ASM posters use limited thinking, your simple experiences in life to base assumptions on. LOL SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) >> I volunteered for many months at a homeless shelter, making sandwiches >> for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The sad part - a few of ASM posters use limited thinking, your simple > experiences in life to base assumptions on. LOL Why don't you enlighten me? Give me some info. Rather than simply tell me I am dumb. If you HAD any useful information, you probably would have shared it. > Why don't you enlighten me? Give me some info. Rather than simply tell me I > am dumb. If you HAD any useful information, you probably would have shared > it. You compared my statement and experience to your experience volunteering at a homeless shelter making sandwich's. For that matter, your buddy did similar. I've said more then once - I have 7yrs of psychology education and behavioral analysis supported by over 30yrs of relatable psychology behavioral study in the corporate world. Dumb - you interpreted me saying you were "dumb" from "limited thinking" and "simple experiences" ---- wow "Dumb" means something completely different in my dictionary. SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) > > Why don't you enlighten me? Give me some info. Rather than simply tell me I > > am dumb. If you HAD any useful information, you probably would have shared [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > behavioral analysis supported by over 30yrs of relatable psychology > behavioral study in the corporate world. The problem is, telling people "I'm right because I know more than you do," is never very convincing. (Although originally you didn't even do that. You said you were right because you donated money.) It is especially unconvincing on USENET, where you can claim to be anything at all. >> Why don't you enlighten me? Give me some info. Rather than simply tell me >> I [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > and "simple experiences" ---- wow "Dumb" means something completely > different in my dictionary. You STILL havent said anything to support your claim. Your CV has no meaning. For all any of us know, it is fiction. > You STILL havent said anything to support your claim. Your CV has no > meaning. For all any of us know, it is fiction. You win ... SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) > > You STILL havent said anything to support your claim. Your CV has no > > meaning. For all any of us know, it is fiction. > > You win ... Yes. Once again, argument by assertion of authority doesn't get you very far in this group. Perhaps it works better for you with your family and employees? >>> I volunteered for many months at a homeless shelter, making >>> sandwiches for [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > tell me I am dumb. If you HAD any useful information, you probably > would have shared it. I've ceased to be amazed how many times SD will use assumptions he's made to conclude that others made assumptions they should not have made. > I'm struggling with this. Does that mean I know what it is like to be > homeless since I give money to homeless shelters? For a man that claim advanced education, you sure make some stupid assumptions. SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) >> I'm struggling with this. Does that mean I know what it is like to be >> homeless since I give money to homeless shelters? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > -- > SD:) Well, but I'm not sure there is a direct correlation between education and making good assumptions, although I expect there might be some. Good question, though. > > I'm struggling with this. Does that mean I know what it is like to be > > homeless since I give money to homeless shelters? > > For a man that claim advanced education, you sure make some stupid > assumptions. What assumption do you think I made? (For that matter, what advanced education do you think I've claimed, and where?) But I notice you didn't answer the question about why helping to fund abuse prevention meant you understood abuse well. >>> I'm struggling with this. Does that mean I know what it is like to be >>> homeless since I give money to homeless shelters? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > But I notice you didn't answer the question about why helping to fund > abuse prevention meant you understood abuse well. LOL. Pot, kettle? I notice you didn't answer my questions either. Funny how that works. >> I'm struggling with this. Does that mean I know what it is like to >> be >> homeless since I give money to homeless shelters? > > For a man that claim advanced education, you sure make some stupid > assumptions. Where was the assumption in that question? And don't point to what he said that you snipped. The fact that you snipped it means that you didn't think it was relevant to your comment. So what assumption did he make, and how is it stupid? > >Two wrongs don't make a right. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > automatically make an affair right... in-fact - IT'S WRONG, even if one > has been physically abused. In my opinion too, an affair is "wrong." Two wrongs do not make a right. We agree. I am not saying and have never said that an affair is ok under any circumstances. > What's interesting about the abuse aspect is almost all the abused > people I've directly encountered are NOT emotionally capable of an > affair of any kind; leading me to question the seriousness of the > "abuse" accusation AND affair. A wide range of behaviors can be termed abuse. If you say that people who have been physically abused are normally incapable of having an affair I defer to your experience. I think I was using the term abuse as too broad term to describe the behaviors that can drive a marriage into the toilet. Steve Harley calls them lovebusters. > I know "physical" abuse well since I've been involved in funding 3 abuse > prevention homes. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Again, someone doing something wrong (say abuse) doesn't mean the other > can do something wrong back, like "have an affair." The point I am trying to make is that by the time a relationship gets to the point where one person has rationalized that an affair is an ok option, the relationship is already broken. The affair is just one more step. Vicious circles end in broken relationships. > Reason I find your verbiage in this post a tell; especially when you > type "but it is just one more step in the path to the destruction." > Almost as though its "ok" to some extent. Then you use the words "What > if someone has an affair in response to abuse"; and "NOT ok", seemingly > allowing tit for tat behavior; short of saying wrong! I'm saying it wrong then. An affair is NOT ok. I am saying that in many cases, the relationship was seriously broken before the affair. An affair is not the start of the problems in many cases. > Overall your post reads as though you can't, won't or don't want to tell > the flat out difference between right and wrong behavior and live by > those rules. Affairs are not ok. Abuse is not ok. Ignoring your partner's needs is not ok. All of those are destructive to a relationship. I am just not putting affairs on some different plane, as though the affair is the whole problem and the unfaithful partner is the only one who did not fulfill their end of the bargain. > >Many people in this NG seem to be putting an affair above all other > >transgressions. > > I suspect a great many ASM posters have lost marriages to affairs; and > some probably still live in the shadows even after remarrying. It also > wouldn't surprise me to learn many have multiple marriages. I suspect that in many cases there were serious problems long before the affair. I have seen that many people close their eyes to their partner's unhappiness, then when the unfaithful partner has an affair the finger pointing starts. Affairs are horrible. Seriously, read the book "After the Affair" by Janis Spring. It is really excellent and looks at the impacts on both the hurt and the unfaithful partner. I am going to type in some material from the beginning of the book. "Three Judgments I Don't Make "1. I don't make blanket judgments about whether affairs by themselves are good or bad. What may be enhancing for one of you may devastate the other and destroy the relationship. ...If you're an unfaithful partner who is serious about reconnecting you must, I believe give up your lover. "2. I don't separate the two of you into victim and victimizer, betrayed and betrayer. Each of you must accept an appropriate share of responsibility for what went wrong. Rather than assign blame, I encourage each of you to confront those parts of yourself that led to the affair, and to change in ways that rebuild trust and intimacy. That doesn't mean I hold you equally accountable for the affair--no one can make another person stray. But I do ask you to be accountable for the distress that may have caused the affair. "3. I don't suggest that you should stay together no matter what, or bolt just because you feel unhappy. Instead, I invite each of you to explore for having or giving up a lover, for choosing or refusing to recommit. Your decision should be deliberate and well-considered, not based on feelings alone. Your feelings in fact may betray you." Don't you think really that this is better than Affair = Evil? Don't you think that this approach gives people a way to make a better choice about whether to continue in a relationship? The blame game and unilateral moral judgments will likely result in divorce or unhappiness. This approach might give the marriage a chance. T >> I agree. >> I wouldn't accept it. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> IMO, ends >> the union and bond that was made on the wedding day. > I agree that having an affair with someone outside the marital > relationship is hurtful to the relationship. So does that mean if > one > person doesn't feel cherished or protected the marriage is over too. I have never understood why when people talk about breaking the marriage vows, it's only that one vow that they are talking about. Zorra >>> I agree. >>> I wouldn't accept it. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Zorra Do they? Or is it just the most definitive one? The easiest one to define? The other ones tend to be a bit more nebulous, or have varying shades of gray, maybe. >>>> I agree. >>>> I wouldn't accept it. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > varying > shades of gray, maybe. Easiest to pinpoint, yes. But it seems to also cause the most uproar. If you break your vow to love your partner, even if everyone agrees that yes, you have indeed stopped loving them, people tend to point to a breakdown in the marriage, to assume that the fault lies with both parties. None of the same outrage -- "How could you break your solemn vow?!" Zorra >I have never understood why when people talk about breaking the >marriage vows, it's only that one vow that they are talking about. That's a great point, actually. I suppose it's because an affair is the one that has a physical component to it. I mean, how can you "prove" that your spouse isn't cherishing you? Or honoring you? Those seem to be more subjective, I suppose. I mean, you could say, "But I *do* honor you every time I cook you supper!" when he claims to be dishonered. Stuff like that. So maybe that's the main one people talk about because it's so obvious when that line has been crossed (well....KIND of obvious! It's clear in this thread that there are different lines for different people). SignatureLauri in WA >>I have never understood why when people talk about breaking the >>marriage vows, it's only that one vow that they are talking about. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > clear > in this thread that there are different lines for different people). Yes, but people at times freely admit that they don't love their spouse anymore, and there is still not the same kind of outrage. Yet there is outrage over emotional affairs which are harder to "prove". I think it's because people feel more violated by an affair, and that's fine, but then they shouldn't use, "But it's breaking a sacred vow!" to bolster their case. Zorra > If you actually want to fix the relationship, and not just be in the > right, you need to get past the finger pointing and work on the root > causes. There is no root cause for lying. There might be a root cause for having someone else, but not for lying about it. > > If you actually want to fix the relationship, and not just be in the > > right, you need to get past the finger pointing and work on the root > > causes. > > There is no root cause for lying. There might be a root cause for > having someone else, but not for lying about it. If a person is a pathological liar and that boters tou, you shouldn't have gotten married in the first place. Most people are not pathological liars. A few possibilities. Fear of retribution if one tells the truth. Shame. Lack of self esteem. Lying is NOT ok. It is mostly internal probably (i.e. contribution mainly from the person who lied),however, if the lie-ee has a history of punishing for the behavior being hidden... Of course, if the "hidden" behavior is benign and you gets punished, you shouldn't be involved with the lunatic in the first place. If it is bad behavior, shame on you. Read "Difficult Conversations", the section on contribution. It gives some good examples of where in a seemingly open and shut blame case, there is some contribution from the other side as well. http://www.amazon.com/Difficult-Conversations-Discuss-what-Matters/dp/014 028852X/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-5916927-3229466?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188221707&s r=8-2 T >> > If you actually want to fix the relationship, and not just be in >> > the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > pathological > liars. I have no idea what that means. Are you claiming that all cheaters are pathological liars, and so the people they betray have no ri |
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