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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / February 2008Therapy not effective
What do you do when therapy is not effective? This is the third therapist with whom I have tried working. I guess at this point, I am ready to throw up my hands and drop out of therapy. Yes, I still have problems and issues (depression and anxiety), but am beginning to believe that my therapy is not working, and that we are going around in circles. I believe that I have tried, but sometimes you realize that some problems don't have solutions or the solutions aren't attained within a reasonable (2 year) timeframe. I remember one old episode of "Bob Newhart" where Bob has a client who has been seeing him for 9 years without much progress. I really don't want to be that client. Third, are most therapist honest enough to tell you that no progress is being made, and that you are not going to find solutions to your problems by visiting them? In my profession, there are lots of clients who I tell that I am not the person to solve their problems. Unfortunately, my friends make jokes that lawyers never turn away work. If a client has money, his work will be done, even if that means passing the work to someone else. I am getting the feeling that my therapist keeps me on as a client because I am the best client she has and pays his bills. Ok, this might work for you, but is really not in my best interest. During my search for a therapist, I really did not have much to go on. My medical insurance provide too few parameters for me to base my choice of a therapist. I wish that my therapist had recommended someone who would help me with my problems, rather than attempting to deal with something which she was unable to make progress. Isn't that the duty of any professional? Or do they just take money from the depressed idiot and hand out marginally effective solutions? > What do you do when therapy is not effective? This is the third therapist > with whom I have tried working. I guess at this point, I am ready to throw [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > do they just take money from the depressed idiot and hand out marginally > effective solutions? It would be nice if therapy was like electrical work. Some preliminaries, and you know (pretty much) what you have to do, and what resources are required, and what is going to work. It isn't though. As with all professionals, some therapists are ethical and some are not, but I think most are trying to do the best job that they can. As far as what you do when you feel therapy is ineffective? I'd suggest bringing your dissatisfaction to your therapist, and trying to see if you and your therapist can agree on a more satisfactory course of action. If not, it is time to stop seeing that therapist. You post suggests that depression is part of the problem. I wonder if you have considered medication in parallel with therapy? My anecdotal knowledge suggests this is likely to be more effective than therapy alone. > What do you do when therapy is not effective? This is the third therapist > with whom I have tried working. I guess at this point, I am ready to throw [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > do they just take money from the depressed idiot and hand out marginally > effective solutions? I have been in your shoes plenty of times. In fact I really don't think I have ever had a therapist I felt some connection to or clicked with. Sometimes I would struggle so hard to make some progress, I would blurt out anything to make the therapist feel better or feel our time was not wasted. A lot of the time I felt I came home more wound up than when I started. I read Doug's post about bringing your opinion up to the therapist. It is good advice, but I could never do it. My suggestion is to tell your therapist you are thinking of going it alone for a bit, but would like to keep in touch. You could either call her/him up to check in or schedule appointments at longer intervals. Depending on the severity of your depression/anxiety, like if it is interfering with your daily life, you could consider meds. Not sure how bad it is for you. It is really hard to find the "right" therapist. I would try to tell yourself that s/he *is* trying to do her/his best instead of thinking the worst, that she is just stringing you along to help pay her bills. Try and keep a positive outlook on the whole thing. I really think though, if you have been around and around with the idea that you are not getting anywhere, it is time to sever the arrangement or at least postpone for the time being. Luck, Vickie >> What do you do when therapy is not effective? This is the third >> therapist with whom I have tried working. I guess at this point, I >> am ready to throw up my hands and drop out of therapy. > I have been in your shoes plenty of times. In fact I really don't > think I have ever had a therapist I felt some connection to or clicked [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > was not wasted. A lot of the time I felt I came home more wound up > than when I started. I have a love/hate relationship with therapists. I tried several before I finally found someone that I really responded to, and even he could only get me so far before I felt that I'd taken all I could get from him. However, I do give him credit for a huge turnaround in my life. I don't think I'd have been able to come so far on my own. So as difficult, and expensive, and tiring, and time consuming as it is, I think in the end it's worth it to keep trying. My advice would be to think about what it is that your therapists have not been giving you. In my case, the first several were all about sympathy and "oh you poor thing" and "you're wonderful, really." And I'd just be sitting there thinking, "Okay, whatever -- just tell me what I should *do*!" So when I got this last therapist, I called several first and I asked them about their methods and told them that what I felt I needed was help in making a game plan. And I rejected several when I didn't get the right vibe from them. Zorra One previous therapist brought up taking Prozac. My issue with that was that I really did not believe that I had a chemical brain inbalence, but rather that my problems were caused by external forces. These drugs are strong, and taking them has reprecussions. When I went to see a psychologist, he did not suggest Prozac, so I never followed up on that line. One thing that my current therapist said is that within 15 mins, she know that I was a very negative and hostile person. Ok, but with her quick and great insight, she did not say that she could not do much with me. Its not that I am not open to reason or suggestion. I felt like telling her that she saw exactly what I wanted her to see. I could have tried to be something else. I wanted to drop my guard and let her see me for what I really am. Obviously, we all "put on our bulletproof mask when we go hit the road looking for a job." The other problem I have is that I really don't like telling someone my deepest and most personal insights. My dirty laundry is best left to myself. One top of that, it really takes a long time to narrate my incidents and issues. All of this costs money and time. Starting over with another therapist means that I am once again telling people things that I feel deserve to be private. We all don't like to show everyone our weaknessess and faults. As for "telling you what to do" some therapists believe in not telling patients much, rather leave it for them to figure out. (My dog gives me the same treatment.) Unfortunately, with mine, she gave me some really bad advice. Basically, she told me that "It was hard for my boss to fire me." Unfortunately, I put too much stake in that advice, refused to resign, and as such got fired. Now, I am not some raging psycho idiot. However, I was being mistreated and abused by my boss, and wanted to know how to either survive or to stand up and fight my situation. See, if a therapist avoids making a statement then the patient doesn't come back and say that the advice was bad. I never had a love nor hate relationship with my therapist. I pictured her as an old lady, who had seen a lot, and thus was able to convey some wisdom to my situation. Instead, I got lots of suggestions and solutions which were either off the cuff or obvious, but not really for me. I even took advice that I felt was not for me. That was a bigger disappointment because when it did not work out, I was kickng myself in the a.s for not putting my foot down about what I wanted. The big question I have is when are things going to turn around and how do I chose my next therepist so that we are making speedy progress. I am willing to put in the time and effort, but I really don't want to be paying someone who has NO CLUE or chasing down issues which are red herrings? At least be honest and say that you have no idea of being able to resolve issues. Don't dangle the prospect of being able to help me if you cannot. This is way too serious to be playing me for a fool. "Never give a sucker an even break." --P.T. Barnum "zorra" <zorra2@comcast.net> wrote in message > >>> What do you do when therapy is not effective? This is the third >>> therapist with whom I have tried working. I guess at this point, I [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Zorra >One previous therapist brought up taking Prozac. My issue with that was >that I really did not believe that I had a chemical brain inbalence, but >rather that my problems were caused by external forces. These drugs are >strong, and taking them has reprecussions. When I went to see a >psychologist, he did not suggest Prozac, so I never followed up on that >line. Psychologists are not generally in the business of prescribing... or sometimes even recommending... medication, so this is not all that surprising. >One thing that my current therapist said is that within 15 mins, she know >that I was a very negative and hostile person. Ok, but with her quick and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >feel deserve to be private. We all don't like to show everyone our >weaknessess and faults. Well, no, but you're not showing them to everyone, are you? You're showing them to one person who you are hoping will be able to help you. I know you know this, but you have to be willing to do that if you want help. If the current therapist isn't helping, then you're just throwing good money after bad, and so you might as well start the process over again. Or, I suppose, quit. >As for "telling you what to do" some therapists believe in not telling >patients much, rather leave it for them to figure out. (My dog gives me the >same treatment.) >Unfortunately, with mine, she gave me some really bad advice. Basically, >she told me that "It was hard for my boss to fire me." Unfortunately, I put >too much stake in that advice, refused to resign, and as such got fired. If that's seriously the advice that she gave you (as opposed to, say, something you read into what she said), I think that she is overstepping what she should reasonably do. You are a better judge of your job situation than she is (and, of course, she can only know what you told her, so it's hard to tell where the misjudgment is here, but I just don't think it's the kind of specific advice one should give). >Now, I am not some raging psycho idiot. However, I was being mistreated and >abused by my boss, and wanted to know how to either survive or to stand up [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >resolve issues. Don't dangle the prospect of being able to help me if you >cannot. This is way too serious to be playing me for a fool. Sure, but you're assuming that she knows that she can't help you. Maybe she truly thinks that she can, and that she is. We are all human and limited. Even if you see the causes of your depression and anxiety as external, it might be a good idea to consider medication, which sometimes makes it far easier to handle the external things. And it might be desirable to look for another therapist. I'm curious why you posted this to a marriage newsgroup? > Sure, but you're assuming that she knows that she can't help you. > Maybe she truly thinks that she can, and that she is. We are all > human and limited. Ok, but I see a therapist because I feel that that person is better able to make certain types of judgement than I am. If I get the sense that I am exhibiting better judgement, I really don't need that person, nor do I want to be giving away my money for services. > Even if you see the causes of your depression and anxiety as external, > it might be a good idea to consider medication, which sometimes makes > it far easier to handle the external things. It could also mess up my ability to call the shots. I have an edge, as my former therapist says, and I agree. That edge made me successful at times. This is a double edge sword, which cuts and is used to cut. > And it might be desirable to look for another therapist. I am far more inclined to quit unless I really get some criteria by which to evaluate someone. I don't care if I work with a man or woman. I don't care if she is Caucasian, African, Asian, or Arabic. I don't care if she lives 3 miles away or 30. I have preferences only when there are no other criteria. If I knew how to find the right one, then these other criteria would be less of an issue. > I'm curious why you posted this to a marriage newsgroup? I found a lot of people here are having the same sorts of issues but in different ways. Everything from finding the right therapist to questioning their own judgement. > One previous therapist brought up taking Prozac. My issue with that was > that I really did not believe that I had a chemical brain inbalence, but > rather that my problems were caused by external forces. This is worth thinking about. Your brain is an electro-chemical organ. Therefore, whatever you are feeling is more or less due to the chemistry of what is happening in your brain. Of course external forces have an enormous effect on this, but the fact remains that your mood is determined by what is physically going on inside your brain. So then this becomes the following issue: medication is often effective for depression. Does your desire to treat your depression trump your philosophical objections to taking medications. > These drugs are > strong, and taking them has reprecussions. Absolutely. Furthermore, you are likely to need to experiment with your psychiatrist in order to find a drug and dose that works well for you. So asking yourself if it is worthwhile is certainly a legitimate question. But if you are dismissing them out of hand, which you seem to be, I'd suggest rethinking that. > When I went to see a > psychologist, he did not suggest Prozac, so I never followed up on that > line. Yes, some psychologists might, others might not. For both good reasons (your psychologist may not have though an anti-depressant would be helpful for you) and bad reasons (he just may not have cared to suggest it since he would have to send you to someone else to get it prescribed). > One thing that my current therapist said is that within 15 mins, she know > that I was a very negative and hostile person. Ok, but with her quick and > great insight, she did not say that she could not do much with me. Maybe she felt she _could_ do something with you. Again, therapy doesn't come with recipes or guaranteed results. So maybe she thought she could help you and she was wrong. Or, maybe she is just not a good therapist. In any case, for better or worse, since you are the consumer, it is up to you to find someone who can help you. This can involve shopping around. It can involve finding a new therapist when you think you've reached a dead end with your current one. It almost certainly involves explaining your frustration to your therapist and asking for a plan to get things moving in the right direction. > Its not > that I am not open to reason or suggestion. I felt like telling her that > she saw exactly what I wanted her to see. Why didn't you tell her that? Better yet, why did you _want_ her to see you as negative and hostile? > I could have tried to be > something else. I wanted to drop my guard and let her see me for what I > really am. Obviously, we all "put on our bulletproof mask when we go hit > the road looking for a job." I think there is a (often unspoken) contract between therapist and patient. Patient tries to work honestly and in good faith with the therapist, and in return the therapist tries to help the patient with his or her problems. You may or may not have had bad luck finding therapist, but it also sounds to me like you aren't fulfilling your side of the therapeutic bargain, so I don't see how even a good therapist can help you make progress. > The other problem I have is that I really don't like telling someone my > deepest and most personal insights. My dirty laundry is best left to [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > resolve issues. Don't dangle the prospect of being able to help me if you > cannot. This is way too serious to be playing me for a fool. There are plenty of bad therapists around, and plenty of good ones. Even the bad ones are usually not "playing people for fools." They just aren't very competent. Here are the steps I took to find someone good: 1) If they were willing to spend a few minutes on the phone with me, I gave them a summary of my understanding of what I wanted help with, and asked them what kind of approach they would take. If not, I arranged a half-hour appointment and did the same thing. 2) We (I was looking for a couples therapist)eliminated anyone who didn't seem smart, and who didn't seem at least a little bit empathetic. 3) We eliminated anyone who couldn't deal with my preliminary interview in a convincing way. 4) We eliminated anyone who seemed inexperienced, or who seemed too new agey in their approach (since we don't have confidence in, for example, crystals, therapeutic touch, or any version of astrology). The first therapist we found was still not that helpful, or at least after 6 months or so we reached a point of diminishing returns. The second one was _very_ helpful. > > One previous therapist brought up taking Prozac. My issue with that was > > that I really did not believe that I had a chemical brain inbalence, but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > organ. Therefore, whatever you are feeling is more or less due to > the chemistry of what is happening in your brain. It here something that really sucks about depression: having depression affects your thought processes and perceptions about *being* depressed. So you can't trust your own brain. Depressed people tend to think that meds won't help them, but often they think that because they are *depressed* and therefore pessimistic. I am not saying anything about albert in particular - just a general observation. Depressed people ought to take into account the possibility of inaccurate perception and listen to loved ones and professionals more than they otherwise would. > As for "telling you what to do" some therapists believe in not telling > patients much, rather leave it for them to figure out. (My dog gives > me the same treatment.) I was the one that mentioned wanting someone to tell me what to do, but I didn't mean, "You should divorce" or "you should go back to school." I knew I had to make my own decisions, I just didn't know how to get there, and someone just sitting there sympathizing didn't help me out. He helped me mostly by challenging my thought processes, and pointing out when my thinking did not reflect reality. Zorra > I was the one that mentioned wanting someone to tell me what to do, but I didn't > mean, "You should divorce" or "you should go back to school." I knew I had to > make my own decisions, I just didn't know how to get there, and someone just > sitting there sympathizing didn't help me out. He helped me mostly by > challenging my thought processes, and pointing out when my thinking did not > reflect reality. Does having a clinician tell you "this is a more emotionally healthy manner in which to behave" influence your behavior at all?  SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) >> I was the one that mentioned wanting someone to tell me what to do, >> but I didn't mean, "You should divorce" or "you should go back to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Does having a clinician tell you "this is a more emotionally healthy > manner in which to behave" influence your behavior at all? I'm not sure one has ever said that to me. The one I responded to best would not discuss my behavior at all, but instead would concentrate on my thought processes. For example, the last part-time job I had was as an office assistant. I actually liked the job, and they were really flexible about my hours, so it was a good job to have and still be able to take care of the kids. But I was in all kinds of emotional turmoil about it, because it was quite a come down from the engineering jobs I'd had before, and I felt looked down upon in the office, though admittedly there was no reason to and I worried that these young kids making more money than me thought this was all I was capable of. And he told me that it was fine for me to stay or to quit, but if I were to quit, it should be for valid reasons, and not as an emotional knee-jerk reaction. He pointed out that I could not possibly know what anyone else was thinking, and reminded me of all the reasons I'd taken the job in the first place, which were still valid no matter what anyone else though. Basically he just calmly walked me through the whole thing pointing out where my thinking was not based on reality. In the end, I stayed many months longer, and when I did finally leave, it was for practical reasons, not emotional ones. But you see...if he'd tried to tell me what I should do, or how I should think, I don't think that would have affected me at all. It was the way he stepped through it, stopping me to say, "How do you know that?" and "So what if that is true, what does it mean?" And every once in a while, throw in a reality check, "If they all think something, does it make it true?" And so in the end, it was never about trying to teach me the emotionally healthy thing to do, it was about...logic and practicality and reality. Zorra > The big question I have is when are things going to turn around and how do I > chose my next therepist so that we are making speedy progress. My take is that once you finally do put your foot down, confront your current therapist with your dissatisfaction, quit, and decide to move on to someone new... magically you will find the right therapist and make astounding progress. The reason I suggest this is because I think your biggest problem is that you don't trust your own judgement. If you are able to confront and leave your current therapist, that tells me you have reached a turning point and are finally able to trust your own judgement,instead of relying on an authority figure to make the judgements for you. I suspect you're close, by the way. There's a common misconception that personal change takes a long time and is a slow, gradual process. The reality is, personal change tends to be very quick and sudden. The long, slow part of the process is when the person is not ready to change and is just giving change "lip service": ... going through the motions (such as hiring and visiting a therapist week after week, writing out expensive checks). If you really wanted to change before now, you would've let down your guard already. As far as trusting one's own judgement... the only time I don't necessarily suggest it, is when one has a brain imbalance such as clinical depression. If you have this strong feeling your judgement is not to be trusted... well, maybe you should be on drugs to fix that. Likewise, if your judgement is screaming, "This therapist is not for me" then listen to it. Let me also ask you this... if your therapist told you suddenly, "Sorry but I can no longer help you, I've done all I can, but you aren't pulling your end of the bargain here and I don't want to waste your money anymore" ... how would you feel? jen If my current therapist told me "There is nothing that therapy can do for you," I would be very relieved and satisfied. If she added the caveat that I am not holding my end of the bargin, I would ask the specifics. I think I would quit as well. Since I am not cooperating, then there is no point of going on. There are some points which she has made (e.g. find a simpler job) which I am not interested in pursueing at this point. Off the topic, I have issues regarding my marriage and pathetic sex life, but those issues are shelved as well. Yes, I do not trust my own judgement nor have I ever. I lacked confidence in most things I have attempted in my life. I have achieved some of my goals, but those are small in my book. I was never really confident about therapy's effectiveness in the first place. I think I have expressed that concern somewhat at times. No, I don't think I would magically find the right therapist. I would probably give up looking for a therapist or trying to find the answers in "formal" therapy. There are lots of problems I have outside of this one particular issue where I do not ask for help, so the answer I find is going to have to be my own. Either I don't need therapy, my therapist is not right for me and finding the right one is very hard, or my problems are so vast, intertwined and complicated that attempting to solve them will consume all my available resource. Its damn hard to explain my rational and reasoning up to this point in my life in a couple of 50 min sessions to someone whose life and values are completely different than mine. Someone once said that if you don't know where you are going, any path will do. The longer I think about that, the more sense that makes. On Feb 7, 12:40 pm, "albert phery" <ab...@hotmail.com> wrote: > The big question I have is when are things going to turn around and how do > I > chose my next therepist so that we are making speedy progress. My take is that once you finally do put your foot down, confront your current therapist with your dissatisfaction, quit, and decide to move on to someone new... magically you will find the right therapist and make astounding progress. The reason I suggest this is because I think your biggest problem is that you don't trust your own judgement. If you are able to confront and leave your current therapist, that tells me you have reached a turning point and are finally able to trust your own judgement,instead of relying on an authority figure to make the judgements for you. I suspect you're close, by the way. There's a common misconception that personal change takes a long time and is a slow, gradual process. The reality is, personal change tends to be very quick and sudden. The long, slow part of the process is when the person is not ready to change and is just giving change "lip service": ... going through the motions (such as hiring and visiting a therapist week after week, writing out expensive checks). If you really wanted to change before now, you would've let down your guard already. As far as trusting one's own judgement... the only time I don't necessarily suggest it, is when one has a brain imbalance such as clinical depression. If you have this strong feeling your judgement is not to be trusted... well, maybe you should be on drugs to fix that. Likewise, if your judgement is screaming, "This therapist is not for me" then listen to it. Let me also ask you this... if your therapist told you suddenly, "Sorry but I can no longer help you, I've done all I can, but you aren't pulling your end of the bargain here and I don't want to waste your money anymore" ... how would you feel? jen > If my current therapist told me "There is nothing that therapy can do for > you," I would be very relieved and satisfied. If she added the caveat that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > have issues regarding my marriage and pathetic sex life, but those issues > are shelved as well. Have you considered saying "I don't feel like therapy is helping me. Do you think it can? What has to happen for it to help me and what do I have to do?" Etc. In other words, these are things you should be discussing with your therapist to see if she can give you a convincing argument to keep working at therapy, or not. (In your case, the argument might be whether you should _start_ working at therapy, or not.) I have expressed my dissatisfaction with the lack of progress. In fact, at the onset, I asked her if she can has had success with dealing with patients in my situation, and she said that she believed that we could make progress. I keep being told, that we are CLOSE? Close because there is no more progress to be made? I took a test with www.cignabehavioral.com which said that I would be helped by therapy. In a certain way, I wish that someone would recommend to me the sort of therapy which would be best for me. I assumed that the therapist knows this better than I do. My therapist never said that there are things that I should be doing that I'm not. In fact, the other problem I have is getting her to stay on agenda. I do not want to work on marriage therapy or parental relationships, because that opens a can of worms. All of a sudden, we start chasing 12 issues, none of which get resolved. Mostly, the therapist tried to point out certain things that she surmised that she saw as progress [my setting goals]. I dispute those as characteristics that I had even before we started. The problem stems from a lack of measureable goals. Unfortunately, the silly reply I get is something like, these are not easily quantified issues. Well., great, but how do I know if progress is being made? I really don't want to be difficult, and I really despartely want things to turn around. However, I need to know that I am making progress and that my therapist is able to help people in my situation. My insurance does not cover this, as I am working with a therapist who is not in my network, but is someone with whom I have worked before (under a different insurance) for a year. I do not want to start all over again, narrating my incidents which I think influence my behavior, since that takes many hours, and I probably have to spend even more money renarratinig my life and coming to the same statemate. >> If my current therapist told me "There is nothing that therapy can do for >> you," I would be very relieved and satisfied. If she added the caveat [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > argument might be whether you should _start_ working at therapy, or > not.) > I have expressed my dissatisfaction with the lack of progress. > In fact, at the onset, I asked her if she can has had success with > dealing with patients in my situation, and she said that she believed > that we could make progress. I keep being told, that we are CLOSE? Close > because there is no more progress to be made? The bottom line is that this therapist is not satisfying you. You are the customer and have a right to walk away if you want to. > I took a test with www.cignabehavioral.com which said that I would be > helped by therapy. In a certain way, I wish that someone would > recommend to me the sort of therapy which would be best for me. I > assumed that the therapist knows this better than I do. IME, therapists specialize in a specific kind of therapy. I'm sure there are those who tailor their approach to the individual, but I've had more luck in finding a different therapist who would try a different approach. > My therapist never said that there are things that I should be doing > that I'm not. In fact, the other problem I have is getting her to > stay on agenda. I do not want to work on marriage therapy or parental > relationships, because that opens a can of worms. All of a sudden, > we start chasing 12 issues, none of which get resolved. Okay, but...no part of your life is isolated. Aren't you going for depression? If so, I don't see how you can leave the major relationships in your life out of it. > Mostly, the therapist tried to point out certain things that she > surmised that she saw as progress [my setting goals]. I dispute [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > have to spend even more money renarratinig my life and coming to the > same statemate. I understand not wanting to start over, but you also don't want to throw good money after bad. If you feel this unsure about your therapist, then most likely she is not the one for you. Zorra But the big question is, is therapy right for me? Maybe I am as good as I am going to get. If not, then I should be just told so. > The bottom line is that this therapist is not satisfying you. You are the > customer and have a right to walk away if you want to. > I understand not wanting to start over, but you also don't want to throw > good money after bad. If you feel this unsure about your therapist, then > most likely she is not the one for you. > > Zorra >But the big question is, is therapy right for me? >Maybe I am as good as I am going to get. >If not, then I should be just told so. Like most of the really important things in life, this isn't a question that someone outside can truly answer for you. >>But the big question is, is therapy right for me? >>Maybe I am as good as I am going to get. >>If not, then I should be just told so. > >Like most of the really important things in life, this isn't a >question that someone outside can truly answer for you. True, and since he has admitted that he is not truly forthcoming with his therapist, probably not something s/he can answer, either. Expecting therapy to help when you won't talk about what is truly happening in your head and your life is kind of like expecting the doctor to prescribe the right medicine when you are only tell him half of your symptoms. SignatureLauri in WA >> But the big question is, is therapy right for me? >> Maybe I am as good as I am going to get. >> If not, then I should be just told so. > > Like most of the really important things in life, this isn't a > question that someone outside can truly answer for you. And I'll add on my obligatory line, "the answer lies within". (Because it's the truth) On Feb 12, 3:00 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> But the big question is, is therapy right for me? > >> Maybe I am as good as I am going to get. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And I'll add on my obligatory line, "the answer lies within". (Because > it's the truth) I was 26. My marriage was ending. Things as I knew them no longer made sense. Back then, in the 80s, the courts ordered counsellign with divorce. I went once, dissembled. I went twice, dissembled. I talked to my 19 year old sister on the phone. She said, "Fill, you know how much those shrinks are getting paid to see you? Go in there and lay it on the line. They are trained to help" So the third--and last court-ordered-time, that's what I did. I was honest, truthful, and since, then, things--life--I've--been much better. I've off and on seen counsellors for vairous problems--pot-smokin' kids, depression, DH closed family--and always, I say, there is money going into this and the person, who has some schooling and aptitude in this area. A couple times, sure, the shrink didn't seem to help. What did I do? Switched shrinks. Not to "hear what I want" but b/c frankly, if I (or my insurance) is paying a good 100 smackaroos, and the shrink can't "recall exactly what was bothering me"--well then, I should be paying someone else, yes? That'd be like going to my job each day and not recalling what my clients or bosses or students expected from me prevously. Bogus. Bad ones--dump em. Good ones--lay it on the line. Fill > But the big question is, is therapy right for me? > Maybe I am as good as I am going to get. > If not, then I should be just told so. Based on the content of your questions and statements; you are as good as you are going to get! Feel better now, somebody's told you what you wanted to hear:) SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) albert phery wrote... > But the big question is, is therapy right for me? > Maybe I am as good as I am going to get. > If not, then I should be just told so. Therapy may be right for you if you don't mind spending a quarter or more of your hard-earned income to pay a phony headshrinking quack to pretend to care about your petty little personal problems. Psychological therapy is like organized religion, it costs a lot of money and there are no refunds. Religionists also pretend to care about you when they want money from you. You might find more happiness by using that $500 to purchase an iPod to listen to upbeat music, or buying a parrot and using the iPod to train him to repeat slogans from one of Dr. Phil's self-help books. And the parrot really is your friend and doesn't want anything from you but a cracker. Oh, and you asked for advice which is the same as counseling which is the same as therapy, therefore you owe me $500. Those who speak do not know, those who know, do not speak. The latter know how useless it is. A large part of the problem, the ancient sages knew, is cosmological. Gibbon: the Romans all believed religion was true, the philosophers all thot it was false, and the politicians all knew it was useful. Christianity was even more useful. Forensic examination of the slave skeletons both before and after the empire converted to Christianity shows that the slaves were in even worse condition. The attitude of the slave drivers was, that if Jesus was going to reward the slaves in heaven, there was no need to do so on Earth. It was more useful to convince them that they were sinners and deserved abuse. And to contribute to the church to get forgiveness- for being ignorant and stupid. Then too, group think sets in saying that all men are sinners in need of redeption. which is not a healthy state of mind for the rational. Nobody was selling Stocism; there wasnt any money in it. It didnt try to increase Faith, but Reason. A large part of the problem therapy has is its unwillingness to challenge Christian dogma and the guilt tripping that comes out of it. If you want to be happy, you havta be rational, and if you are, then you abandon Faith, and choose to believe only that for which there is some reasonable basis in fact. > I wish that my therapist had recommended someone who would help > me with my problems, rather than attempting to deal with something which she > was unable to make progress. Isn't that the duty of any professional? Or > do they just take money from the depressed idiot and hand out marginally > effective solutions? Often some folks seek clinical guidance but have no criteria set for determining which therapist works well with their personality or issues; you have responsibility here, whether you accept it is another subject. What's more, finding emotional answers are not black and white absolute get in your face, oh be Jesus, there is the answer process which some people expect. Imagine the overly analytical mind saying ok; what is my problem?, and then what is the answer, course he/she expects the clinician to provide the answer, and then disagrees because it is not seemingly logical. Sometimes the answer does not come till much later, other times its there you just cannot see because you are in your own way, and WILL NOT SEE, even when directed; blaming the therapist. Ever consider your rational mind is dominating your emotional progress. Yes, it is the responsibility of a clinician to measure progress; but in todayʼs mental healthcare climate some clinicians could be struggling financially which might errantly sway their ability to conclude their care is ineffective for you. But, since you have experienced more then a few therapists, itʼs more likely for a good clinician to conclude what is impeding your progress, and make out your inability to acknowledge, and or get past a blockage. If that is the case, he/she could easily NOT see their way to refer you to a colleague, believing they will face the same limiting condition. SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) The reason that I see a professional is that I want something that I don't think I am best able to resolve. Yes, I know that there are big problems with the current healthcare system, however, this is not my problem. If a therapist is not getting paid enough, then I should not be there to supplement her income for her "charity cases." Actually, she gets paid $100/hr, which I think is a great rate. My therapist does not have enough insurance carring clients. Moreover, I have moved out of state, and correspond via telphone, so my sessions are not covered by insurance. I stuck with my therapist because it took a lot of sessions before I was able to narrate my situation. There are times I had to really toss around an issue before she accepted my interpretation. Actually, I even have a problem with that. There are issues about which judgement and intrepretion of actions are not correct. Actually, I have suggested that my therapist call the other party involved and see the other view point. My therapist did not follow through on that "suggestion". My conclusion about therapy is that unless I am slashing my wrists or hurting children, most of it was just expensive talk. Maybe if my problems were more critical, then it might make more sense. In these posts, even though dank has a far more extreme view than I do, I think he is perhaps correct with his interpretation of the over marketing of psychology. There are lots of problems for which psychotherapy has no solution, and rather than admit that and lose clients, there is an overzelous attempt by therapist to not reject business. The problem with that is that people begin to form a negative opinion of the psychology profession, and might sometime might seek not to visit a professional based on past failures. A case in point. My father had his spleen removed. About 10 years later, there were a whole series of articles where people questioned MD's decisions regarding unnecessary spleen removals performed by doctors in the 1970's. Afterwards, my father was very jaded about medical doctors in general. Trust is something which is very hard to regain once it is lost. Well look. 100 years ago, the profession said that masturbation caused insanity. 80 years ago, that premarital sex caused bad marriages. During WWII, they were treating what we now call PTSD with aspirin and sending men back to the front. 40 years ago they were saying that autism was caused by erratic mothering, and 20 years ago that they could cure homosexuality. So, what bullshit are they foisting upon us now? People have an innate need for attention. If they can get that with mental symptomology, then some folks will use that. That fact has a lot to do with why Dr. Freud noted that neurosis was intractable. Part of it too is Christian socialization. The plain fact is that not all of us were created to find or maintain mated relationships. Hominids evolved in small villages and tribes where the life expectancy was short. It made no sense to invest that much in any one person. The village would be there whether the mate survived or not. The people one lived with were the same as those one worked with, and as a result, folks got to know each other a lot better. You wore the same face all day to everyone. The option of being a bitch at work and sweetheart at home was not an option. Personalities were therefore more integrated. Unlike the shrink or therapist, the witch or shaman lived and worked with those they were doing case management for, and saw the whole person, not just what was presented in planned sessions. Stresses were dealt with immediately, not when the next appointment slot opened up. That immediacy was much more effective. Some of are not well adapted to modern mass urban life and need to return to the village. albert phery wrote... > What do you do when therapy is not effective? This is the third therapist > with whom I have tried working. I guess at this point, I am ready to throw [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > been seeing him for 9 years without much progress. I really don't want to > be that client. You still haven't figured out that therapists are in the business to make money. Almost all businesses depend on repeat customers, so don't think your therapy sessions are ending anytime soon. Perhaps you should put yourself in your therapist's place. Next session ask him what kind of car he drives and then imagine how many hours of overtime you'd have to put in at YOUR job to afford that car and then decide whether you would prefer to work an extra thousand hours doing some degree of manual labor (even if it's just stapling cover sheets to TCP reports), or would you prefer to earn $500/hour listening to losers whine about their personal problems and telling them to come back for additional sessions? I like to compare psychology to religion. Many people feel better by going to church, but that doesn't make it scientific as psychology purports to be. Like psychologists, church preachers also demand a lot of money, and like therapy there is no particular sum of money that guarantees salvation (i.e., at $50,000 you automatically get into heaven and can stop going to church). The flow of money from customer to preacher or psychologist continues indefinitely, and neither service professional ever has to sully his hands with manual labor. Like psychologists, church preachers also demand a > lot of money, and like therapy there is no particular sum of money > that guarantees salvation (i.e., at $50,000 you automatically get into > heaven and can stop going to church). The flow of money from customer > to preacher or psychologist continues indefinitely, and neither service > professional ever has to sully his hands with manual labor. You must be a Scientologist. news wrote... > Like psychologists, church preachers also demand a > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > You must be a Scientologist. No, scientology is just as bogus as psychology. I'll concede that psychiatric medications can be effective for severe mental disorders, but that is in the realm of scientific neurology. What I am attacking here is the pseudoscience of PSYCHOLOGY, which is nothing more than a modern version of religion and uses the same technique of chanting slogans at the victim in an attempt to brainwash him into parting with his money. I think part of the problem stems from the way psychology uses scientific-sounding jargon such as "therapy" and "treatment" to make the slogan-chanting seem like some sort of medical procedure. Practitioners even use the title of "Dr." to confuse the public into thinking they are real scientific medical doctors and not pseudoreligious con men. > albert phery wrote... >> What do you do when therapy is not effective? This is the third [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> don't have solutions or the solutions aren't attained within a reasonable >> (2 year) timeframe. Try seeing a doctor, a real MD, that will actually do a test for brain chemistry and give you a drug to fix what's wrong. Not all depression/anxiety is caused by things like PTSD or things you can "face, realize, talk out of your system." Some of it is biochemical - it needs medicine. > > albert phery wrote... > >> What do you do when therapy is not effective? This is the third [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Try seeing a doctor, a real MD, that will actually do a test for brain > chemistry and give you a drug to fix what's wrong. There is no such test. >> > albert phery wrote... >> >> What do you do when therapy is not effective? This is the third [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > There is no such test. Yes, there are tests, but they are quite expensive. How do you think they determine brain chemistry? Via a test. > >> > albert phery wrote... > >> >> What do you do when therapy is not effective? This is the third [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Yes, there are tests, but they are quite expensive. How do you think they > determine brain chemistry? Via a test. I think mostly "they" don't determine brain chemistry. "They" mostly look at symptoms, take a guess at a medication that might be effective, and if the medication works, "they" pronounce that the medication improved the brain's chemistry. Doug Anderson wrote... >>>albert phery wrote... >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > There is no such test. There is a similar type of test that involves measuring the patient's brain waves then comparing them to a database of tens of thousands of other patients' brain waves then prescribing whatever drug(s) that patients with similar waves reported being effective. The technique is revolutionary because it doesn't involve any attempt to label the patient with a particular diagnosis. Similar mental symptoms occur among a variety of alleged disorders, but treatments can be very different. No diagnosis is required because the treatment involves replicating the successful treatment of someone else with similar brain chemistry/activity. This sort of therapy is likely to be suppressed because it is pure neurological science and takes the pseudoscience of psychology out of the loop. According to traditional psychiatry, a imbalance in neurotransmitter levels can only be corrected by medication in conjunction with intensive "talk therapy" where the patient, his insurance, or Medicaid are charged $500/hour to interrogate the patient about his toilet training experiences and his sexual feelings toward his mother. > Doug Anderson wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I believe wholeheartedly in mental disorders being biological. I am wondering though and not sure if you would know the answer to this, but are there cases then when the test was done and compared to another's brain chemistry that they found the person not needing any medication? That the brain chemistry/waves indicated pretty normal activity and the depression/anxiety/whatever was due to outside forces? If this happens is the patient then referred to the "talk therapists"? Vickie > Doug Anderson wrote... > > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > neurological science and takes the pseudoscience of psychology out of > the loop. Hmm. You mean like psych medications have been suppressed since they take the pseudoscience of psychology out of the loop? I've heard of experiments of this sort. My understanding is that these techniques are not accurate. Can you cite peer-reviewed studies showing that a test such as you describe is actually more effective at diagnosing depression than an interview with a trained psychological professional? Or that it is more effective at identifying a successful medication? > According to traditional psychiatry, a imbalance in > neurotransmitter levels can only be corrected by medication in > conjunction with intensive "talk therapy" where the patient, his > insurance, or Medicaid are charged $500/hour to interrogate the > patient about his toilet training experiences and his sexual feelings > toward his mother. Is it possible that your foil hat has slipped down over your eyes? You know, it only need cover your scalp in order to protect you from the mind-control machines. Doug Anderson wrote... > Can you cite peer-reviewed studies showing that a test such as you > describe is actually more effective at diagnosing depression than an > interview with a trained psychological professional? Or that it is > more effective at identifying a successful medication? The patients themselves reported the diagnostic method and drug treatment worked. One patient had taken everything from Paxil to Wellbutrin and the brainwave analysis suggested Depakote by itself would work and it did. There is no scientific proof in that all we have is the patient's word that she felt better, but that is as much evidence as Dr. Phil could present that his talk therapy worked. > Doug Anderson wrote... > > Can you cite peer-reviewed studies showing that a test such as you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The patients themselves reported the diagnostic method and drug > treatment worked. I read that answer to my question as "no, I can't." > One patient had taken everything from Paxil > to Wellbutrin and the brainwave analysis suggested Depakote by > itself would work and it did. That is excellent that this patient was helped. But it doesn't show anything remotely like what was claimed (that there is some kind of reliable chemical or electrical "test" which reveals what is going on in the brain, chemically, or otherwise). >> Doug Anderson wrote... >> > Can you cite peer-reviewed studies showing that a test such as you [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > there is some kind of reliable chemical or electrical "test" which > reveals what is going on in the brain, chemically, or otherwise). PET scans. > >> Doug Anderson wrote... > >> > Can you cite peer-reviewed studies showing that a test such as you [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > PET scans. That sentence no verb. Yes, we know PET scans exist. Are you claiming that they are reliable tool for deciding what medication is helpful? If so, on what peer reviewed research do you base that claim? [I know of specific research relating to epilepsy, and more questionable research relating to ADHD, but nothing that works generally in the kind of ways that are being suggested. Furthermore, counter to your initial suggestion, most doctors don't have the resources to do PET scans of their patients with psychiatric complaints.] Doug Anderson wrote... > That is excellent that this patient was helped. > > But it doesn't show anything remotely like what was claimed (that > there is some kind of reliable chemical or electrical "test" which > reveals what is going on in the brain, chemically, or otherwise). Does Dr. Phil perform a battery of tests to prove his slogan chanting is effective and worth $500/hour? > Doug Anderson wrote... > > That is excellent that this patient was helped. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Does Dr. Phil perform a battery of tests to prove his slogan > chanting is effective and worth $500/hour? I have no idea. If he was making claims here, I'd ask him to justify them, just as I ask you to justify your claims. Talking about things Dr Phil may say which you disagree with doesn't serve to justify your claims. > Doug Anderson wrote... >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > other patients' brain waves then prescribing whatever drug(s) that > patients with similar waves reported being effective. Are you talking about the kind of tests that map brain activity via MRI or PET scans? |
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