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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / March 2008How would you respond?
You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. They say they really don't want to do it. You know they are already heading out close to the same destination, and you point that out, easy to pick it up in their travels. They still refuse. You let them know you have had a rough day and are helping one of the kids study for a test. Still no. Everything was said with a please, but they keep refusing straight at your face, not budging from their no. They leave to run their errand. You put the kids on hold and go run your own errand. While pulling up to your destination, you see your spouse parking, so you park next to them. You realize they were going to do you the favor, so you call out and tell them it is okay, you are here now anyway. Would you now be happy that they had changed their mind? Would you be pissed that you still ended up stopping something you were doing, but found that you could have stayed home all along? Would you wonder what kind of mind game your spouse was pulling on you? Would you think that, oh, he must have felt guilty and changed his mind, isn't that nice? The spouse arrives home after you and clearly thinks they have done you a favor. Your response is....... Vickie > You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Vickie I would have seen it as (at least) a small positive sign that they cared. I wouldn't assume it's a mind game (but that's just me, and with someone like my ex (and vice versa, I'm pretty sure). But OTOH, we never got to such a stage. And I think if we had, there would be real issues of respect that would have needed to be resolved - post haste! On Mar 19, 8:15 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > > They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > I wouldn't assume it's a mind game (but that's just me, and with someone > like my ex (and vice versa, I'm pretty sure). > But OTOH, we never got to such a stage. And I think if we had, there would > be real issues of respect that would have needed to be resolved - post > haste!- Hide quoted text - Still, thanks. I really wanted to see it as a positive. But it was damn hard. This helps. Vickie >You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. >They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >Your response is....... Ummmm. Well, my first response was kind of unprintable. :-) I don't know. I mean, ok, he did it in the end, BUT he could have phoned you and said that he would, so you wouldn't have to go out. And he was incredibly ungracious to begin with. So I suppose that he gets some minor points for having thought better of it and run the errand anyway, but not enough to really count a whole lot, all things considered. Especially since his actions didn't stop you from actually having to do the errand yourself. snip > >The spouse arrives home after you and clearly thinks they have done > >you a favor. > > >Your response is....... > > Ummmm. Well, my first response was kind of unprintable. :-) Totally with you, lol. > I don't know. I mean, ok, he did it in the end, BUT he could have > phoned you and said that he would, so you wouldn't have to go out. > And he was incredibly ungracious to begin with. He was. > So I suppose that he gets some minor points for having thought better > of it and run the errand anyway, but not enough to really count a > whole lot, all things considered. Especially since his actions didn't > stop you from actually having to do the errand yourself. Yeah, this was how I felt. What I am most upset at myself about was asking him in the first place. I still am going to keep that small bit of positive in the back of my head though. Vickie > snip >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > What I am most upset at myself about was asking him in the first > place. WHY??? It was a perfectly valid and reasonable request! You shouldn't have to beg for it, either. Where's my posse gang? Rog must be asleep at the switch, again. > I still am going to keep that small bit of positive in the back of my > head though. > > Vickie I've been called altrustric, so keep that in mind. :-) (seriously though, I think it was at least good that he did at least that much, but that's about the extent of it) On Mar 19, 8:42 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > snip > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > WHY??? It was a perfectly valid and reasonable request! You shouldn't > have to beg for it, either. Because I don't need the upset. I knew somewhere deep down he would say no, so why on earth did I ask? It was unfair, really, to him, and to me in a way. > Where's my posse gang? Rog must be asleep at the switch, again. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I've been called altrustric, so keep that in mind. :-) Altrustric? Is that anything like altruistic? You know the unfortunate thing about being altruistic is that your selflessness will more than likely keep you from spreading your DNA, hence there will be less and less atruistic people in the world. > (seriously though, I think it was at least good that he did at least that > much, but that's about the extent of it. I will take it. Vickie > On Mar 19, 8:42 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >>>> Ummmm. Well, my first response was kind of unprintable. :-) Oh, come on now, Nina. Don't be bashful - go for it. :-) >>> Totally with you, lol. LOL. I well imagine so. >>>> I don't know. I mean, ok, he did it in the end, BUT he could have >>>> phoned you and said that he would, so you wouldn't have to go out. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > say no, so why on earth did I ask? It was unfair, really, to him, and > to me in a way. "Unfair" to HIM???????????? Give me a BREAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >> Where's my posse gang? Rog must be asleep at the switch, again. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Altrustric? Is that anything like altruistic? LOL. Thanks. Maybe I am a bit rustic, though. :-) > You know the unfortunate thing about being altruistic is that your > selflessness will more than likely keep you from spreading your DNA, > hence there will be less and less atruistic people in the world. Well, unfortunately the ones that are propagating the world the most are most often the ones who are least able to enrich it, as we all know. (Then again, my time here is limited, so I won't have to put up with this world too much longer, fortunately. So, nyaaah!) >> (seriously though, I think it was at least good that he did at least that >> much, but that's about the extent of it. > > I will take it. > > Vickie OK!! >On Mar 19, 8:42 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> >wrote: >> WHY??? It was a perfectly valid and reasonable request! You shouldn't >> have to beg for it, either. > >Because I don't need the upset. I knew somewhere deep down he would >say no, so why on earth did I ask? It was unfair, really, to him, and >to me in a way. Wow. If you really believe that, it sounds kind of........door-matty. Sorry, that doesnt' sound like a nice thing to say but if it's gotten to the point where you feel that it's "unfair to him" to ask him to do a favor that's right on his way.....wow. I mean, there are circumstance where it would be fine for him to go, "Sorry, Vickie, I can't do it because <insert good reason here>." But him having a reason (or not!) doesn't mean that your request was unreasonable or unfair.  SignatureLauri in WA > On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:31:27 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > reason (or not!) doesn't mean that your request was unreasonable or > unfair. There are reasons that I don't post my opinions all that much in response to Vickie's posts. I see too much of what I was unable to resolve, and I don't think my perspective at this point would be all that helpful to Vickie. I find that I'm now a bit jaded when it comes to people who react the way she posts about her husband reacting. Kitten > What I am most upset at myself about was asking him in the first > place. Whoa, gonna have to stop you there. Kinda hit a nerve, because my STBX use to pull the same sh.t on me. She ask me to do something and already it was guilt/attitude behind it because she always felt "she shouldn't have to ask in the first place, I was suppose to know." I NEVER understood that type of thinking becasue if she needed me to do an errand for her, I've always did it with out complaint. If she needed money, I never asked why, I just gave it to her, no question, no body language. I just said "Ok, here you go" I could never understand how someone can get mad at someone else for NOT thinking about doing things. I spent half my marriage trying to second her wishes and getting it wrong A LOT. Would have much easier if she just told me what was on her mind. But then again she "didn't like to ask." Another story: My STBX broke her leg during a vacation we had. So for about 3 months I was doing the home caring thing. Before I went to work, Every morning I would lay out the kitchen table with all her breakfast stuff so she wouldn't have to do anything but come down and eat. Normally she got up around 9ish, but I would leave for work around 7. The night before, I told her I was going to make myself some BLT's for my lunch, so I was going to cook some bacon in the morning. She normally has ceral during the week, but I asked would she like me to make her bacon in morning? I told her, I would make the bacon, wrap it up and leave it for her next to the microwave so all she had to do was heat it for maybe one minute when she got up. She said fine, That morning I was cooking the bacon, made my lunch and went to check in on her in bed. She was freaking crying, CRYING!!! I asked what was wrong. She said "you just going to leave me here and let me fend for myself. I was really hoping you bring me breakfast upstair since you were cooking breakfast" I said, I wasn't cooking breakfast, I was making my lunch, If you wanted breakfast in bed, why didn't you just say so last night. "I DIDN'T WANT TO ASK" So I made her breakfast, brought it up, but I was kinda angry about it and of course I was late for work. That was a particularly bad day all around. Maybe I should have asked her if she wanted breakfast in bed, but I had so much sh.t going at work and dealing with running the house and taking care of her, it just didn't cross my mind. Maybe that's part of your problem with hubby? You went it the situatition already on edge? EB >> What I am most upset at myself about was asking him in the first >> place. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > because she always felt > "she shouldn't have to ask in the first place, I was suppose to know." EB, you've misread. She didn't say that she was upset that she *had* to ask, she said that she was upset that she *asked*. As in, she was upset that she asked him to do something when she should have known that he wouldn't be willing to do it. Zorra > >> What I am most upset at myself about was asking him in the first > >> place. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Zorra I understand a bit. But you can see from my point of view it was almost the same thing. Maybe her hubby thinks the same as I do, from the point of view that the very fact about asking for something brings an unpleasant reaction from Vickie. Doesn't mattter why she is upset about asking, just that the act of asking makes her upset. EB >>>> What I am most upset at myself about was asking him in the first >>>> place. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I understand a bit. But you can see from my point of view it was > almost the same thing. I actually cannot see how the two are even remotely alike, except insofar as they fall in the general category of "making (or not) requests of our spouses". > Maybe her hubby thinks the same as I do, from the point of view that > the very fact about asking for something brings an unpleasant reaction > from Vickie. > Doesn't mattter why she is upset about asking, just that the act of > asking makes her upset. I think it makes a huge difference between someone who finds making spousal requests upsetting because her spouse never does what she ask anyhow, and someone who finds spousal requests upsetting because even though her spouse always complies with the request, she's got so much personal junk that she doesn't want to or doesn't think she should have to. > EB >>>>> What I am most upset at myself about was asking him in the first >>>>> place. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > insofar as they fall in the general category of "making (or not) > requests of our spouses". I don't either. The big difference to me is that if Vickie's husband cheerfully agreed to requests in the way that EB did, there would have been no problem. What she's mad at herself for is setting up a situation that had she thought about it, she would have known would cause a problem. >> Maybe her hubby thinks the same as I do, from the point of view that >> the very fact about asking for something brings an unpleasant [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > personal junk that she doesn't want to or doesn't think she should > have to. Yep. Zorra > >> What I am most upset at myself about was asking him in the first > >> place. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > asked him to do something when she should have known that he wouldn't be willing > to do it. Right, that's it. Vickie >> What I am most upset at myself about was asking him in the first >> place. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > because she always felt > "she shouldn't have to ask in the first place, I was suppose to know." It may have hit a nerve, but I think you're misreading Vickie's reasoning. She's not mad at herself for asking because she thinks her husband should have known to do it; she's mad at herself for asking because she thinks she should have known that he wouldn't. Kind of like being mad at yourself for going postal on the dog for ralphing on the rug, because--hey, it's a dog, it's in their nature. Except that, in theory, Vickie's not dealing with a dog. (I didn't read Vickie's ralphing dog story and presume she didn't go postal on it, just making an analogy here.) > > What I am most upset at myself about was asking him in the first > > place. [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Maybe that's part of your problem with hubby? You went it the > situatition already on edge? No. I would never ask my husband for breakfast in bed sick or no. I have asked for kleenex or perhaps a glass of water. It wasn't that I just wanted him to *know*. I was angry I asked in the first place, because I pretty much know the answer. Vickie > What I am most upset at myself about was asking him in the first > place. Hey Vickie, did you ever see The Joy Luck Club? I think a couple of those stories would hit home for you. > > What I am most upset at myself about was asking him in the first > > place. > > Hey Vickie, did you ever see The Joy Luck Club? I think a couple of > those stories would hit home for you. No. Perhaps I will rent it. Vickie > You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Would you now be happy that they had changed their mind? No. > Would you be pissed that you still ended up stopping something you > were doing, but found that you could have stayed home all along? Yes. > Would you wonder what kind of mind game your spouse was pulling on > you? No. > Would you think that, oh, he must have felt guilty and changed his > mind, isn't that nice? No. > The spouse arrives home after you and clearly thinks they have done > you a favor. > > Your response is....... I wish you'd told me you were going to do that so I didn't have to waste time and gas going to do it. And what's with the whole thing of not wanting to do stuff for me anyway? Is that the kind of relationship you want to live in? >> You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. >> They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > And what's with the whole thing of not wanting to do stuff for me > anyway? Is that the kind of relationship you want to live in? I hate you. Again. (snip) > >> Your response is....... > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I hate you. Again. Yeah, that was really quite elegant. > (snip) > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Yeah, that was really quite elegant. A man can't win. Either way. It is the Rules. You know the one: "Only the female must know the Rules. If she suspects that the male has worked out what they are, She must alter them immediately." 1984-style. Doug L. (I just want to die, and let my wife have the money she can't let go of, and resents my using up.) > > (snip) > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > (I just want to die, and let my wife have the money she can't let go of, > and resents my using up.) Doug L, you should read this poem called "The Actuarial Wife"--I cannot remember who wrote it, but it's awful relevant. As for the stuff about the hubby never seeming angry, or fighting, I remember my ex, when he left, I said to him, "But why are you going? I love you and we never have really fought" and he said, "We're always fighting." Back then, a decade ago, I would have denied it, but he was right--without words, there was constant anger and fight. Now, with my beloved, I see that. But when you come from a family where there's always quiet anger and hostility and nonfunctional behavior, you don't necessarily understand that is what you're in. It takes getting out, fighting to get healthy and stay out, that does the trick. But I suspect I'm preachin' to the choir here. Fill >>> (snip) >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> If she suspects that the male has worked out what they are, >> She must alter them immediately." THAT sounds pretty damn cynical to me!!! >> Doug L. >> (I just want to die, and let my wife have the money she can't let go of, >> and resents my using up.) So does that, come to think of it. > Doug L, you should read this poem called "The Actuarial Wife"--I > cannot remember who wrote it, but it's awful relevant. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Fill Are you so sure??? I wouldn't bet the farm on it. /Moonbeam Sonata >> (snip) >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > (I just want to die, and let my wife have the money she can't let go > of, and resents my using up.) Different issues, same sentiment. I'm right there with you, Doug. Zorra >>> (snip) >>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Zorra You know what? BOTH of you guys are depressing!! Geeeesh! On Mar 22, 10:30 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>> (snip) > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > You know what? BOTH of you guys are depressing!! Geeeesh! yeah moonbeams, thus "The Actuarial Wife"--you should read it too. I think some wives--and hubbies--are that way. Y'know, about the kids the vows the policies. > On Mar 22, 10:30 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > think some wives--and hubbies--are that way. Y'know, about the kids > the vows the policies. but i's don't wanna be depressed no mah than i's already is, ya heah?? On Mar 22, 10:53 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > On Mar 22, 10:30 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > but i's don't wanna be depressed no mah than i's already is, ya heah?? that poem just might make you laugh, its so depressingly cynical, which of course YOU ARE NOT >>>> (snip) >>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > You know what? BOTH of you guys are depressing!! Geeeesh! Yeah, I know, sorry. I'm feeling really blue these days. Zorra >>>>> (snip) >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Zorra You don't have to be sorry anymore than I do. >You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. >They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >Your response is....... If this were a healthy relationship, I'd likely sit down right away and say something like, "some things between us need to change -- fast." But it's not a healthy relationship. You're married to someone who, for whatever reason, feels entitled to treat you poorly. There's only one person who can change this, and it's not him. I think in your position I'd take a few hours (but no more than 24) to think about what I want that I'm not getting. I'd then sit my husband down and tell him I'm very unhappy with what feels like a one-sided marriage. That with or without him, I'm going to counseling -- and that I'm committed to sticking with it until I'm able to feel confidence in my choices, up to and including leaving him. I'd also say that time is fast running out to turn things around; I find myself caring less and less about what he feels or thinks, and that being a single parent would be easier because the only thing that would change is I wouldn't have to deal with his angry, unhelpful presence on a daily basis any more. You need to focus on yourself, Vickie -- not him. You have 3 kids who need a strong and loving parent, and he's undermining you at every turn. If it's too hard to think of yourself, think of them and what his words and actions are showing them about how families work. You have it in your power to show them that isn't so. Barb >> You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. >> They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Barb What Barb said. > >> You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > >> They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > What Barb said. Yep. Vickie <lilliputianbizzare@gmail.com> wrote: >> ...<snip>... >>Would you now be happy that they had changed their mind? >>Would you be pissed that you still ended up stopping >> something you were doing, but found that you could have >> stayed home all along? Happy? Mildly pleased, just a smidgen, but also pissed. He could've said he'd try. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>Would you wonder what kind of mind game your spouse >> was pulling on you? >>Would you think that, oh, he must have felt guilty and >>changed his mind, isn't that nice? Likely, a spur of the moment decision. This may not apply but, I drive a lot and if I've had a busy day or tired, I won't do an errand (unless I'm told That I have to). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>The spouse arrives home after you and clearly thinks they >>have done you a favor. Your response is....... The phrase that strikes fear into the hearts of men, "Honey, we need to talk." Then: "I appreciate that you went out of your way to be helpful; but I want you to listen to me. I feel like [you been dissing me for a long time + its wearing me down]." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Vickie <lilliputianbizzare@gmail.com> wrote: >>> ...<snip>... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > if I've had a busy day or tired, I won't do > an errand (unless I'm told That I have to). This makes no sense to me. My husband used to do this too. What does "try" mean. You either stop at the store and pick up the eggs or you don't. me: DH can you please pick up the eggs? him: Can't if you want me home in time for dinner. me: Ok not critical. Come on home. or me: We need them for the dinner. We will hold dinner for you. ... I guess it depends on the errand. But for me, it is not so much do or not do. Nowadays I can trust DH not to just blow it off because he does not feel like it (which is kinda what Vickie made her DH sound like he was doing). So if he says yes, it is yes. If he says no, it is no. I like that worlds better than try. There is no try! Do! Or do not. Words of wisdom from Yoda. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> The spouse arrives home after you and clearly thinks they [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > for a long time + its wearing me down]." > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Why would that strike fear? Wife tells you exactly what the problem is. You now have the tools to fix it. God help you if you get the passive aggressive type. > What does "try" mean? > You either stop at the store and pick up the eggs or you don't. Its shorthand for..."I intend to do it. I'm almost positive that I will, but if I forget, you can't yell at me since I didn't promise it." >> The phrase that strikes fear into the hearts of men, "Honey, >> we need to talk." > Why would that strike fear? Becuz our instinctive reaction is to freeze and think: "Either she's about to call me on something I did wrong, and I have no idea which, or she's going to want talk indefinitely about 'us,' and it'll be half-time before I can turn on the TV." ~ Seriously. >> What does "try" mean? >> You either stop at the store and pick up the eggs or you don't. > > Its shorthand for..."I intend to do it. I'm almost positive that I > will, but if I forget, you can't yell at me since I didn't promise > it." You don't have routines and habits in your life that prevent you from "forgetting" the things you agree to do? Would you say the aforementioned sentence to your boss or collegue? Would you expect them to accept maybe I will and maybe I wont, but it is not important enough for me to actually write myself a note? >>> The phrase that strikes fear into the hearts of men, "Honey, >>> we need to talk." [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > which, or she's going to want talk indefinitely about 'us,' and it'll > be half-time before I can turn on the TV." ~ Seriously. It is not instinct. There is something wrong in your relationship if you feel the need to think that. IMO. >>> What does "try" mean? >>> You either stop at the store and pick up the eggs or you don't. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >will and maybe I wont, but it is not important enough for me to actually >write myself a note? Well, I do actually tell my students that they need to remind and badger me to do certain things, or at minimum write me an email so that I have a written record somewhere. I have some minimal kind of sympathy for the idea of "I'll try"... if it's because I might get busy etc. If it's "I may not remember", then I think a better approach might be, phone me about when I usually leave work (or whatever) and remind me. >>>> What does "try" mean? >>>> You either stop at the store and pick up the eggs or you don't. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > badger me to do certain things, or at minimum write me an email so > that I have a written record somewhere. Everybody gets to set their own limits of what responsibility they will accept. You don't beleive it is your responsibility to manage THOSE tasks. But Rog's attitude would make me feel like the things that would be helpful to me are not a priority. > I have some minimal kind of sympathy for the idea of "I'll try"... if > it's because I might get busy etc. If it's "I may not remember", then > I think a better approach might be, phone me about when I usually > leave work (or whatever) and remind me. >>>>> What does "try" mean? >>>>> You either stop at the store and pick up the eggs or you don't. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >But Rog's attitude would make me feel like the things that would be helpful >to me are not a priority. I can see it that way, but I can also see it as accepting limitations, in a sense. I can see it as, "I'm happy to do this thing for you, but I know that eight hours from now, I might space it out... so please remind me." I do that kind of thing all the time, and I'm actually pretty damn good at remembering stuff, but a backup system is good, too. I don't know. I've said so many times about my ex and his inability to call and let me know if he was going to be late, and how that really in some ways was a straw that broke the camel's back... because it made me unbelievably anxious and sent that "I don't care enough about you to make you a priority." But in the fullness of time, I think that the real message was, "I am an idiot who can't be bothered to keep track of the time, no matter who it is, unless I'm going to be fired over it and maybe even then." Stupid but not about me. In this era of cell phones, I would just have phoned him, and it would have taken care of the problem. I don't know; I'm kind of rambling here, but I guess that there are big things that you have to take responsibility for, and there are little things that maybe everyone can compensate a little for. (But I'm with you on the attitude thing... "I will do this but please forgive me if I space it out" seems better to me than everything implied by "I'll try to do it but I don't want to be lectured if I forget.") >> Everybody gets to set their own limits of what responsibility they will >> accept. You don't beleive it is your responsibility to manage THOSE tasks. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > pretty damn good at remembering stuff, but a backup system is good, > too. I'm fortunate to be married to someone who never beats me up about failing to remember a commitment. I do well enough at that on my own (the beating self up), and have ample opportunity. There is no "might." I will space out. I've got all kinds of systems in place to help me through with the things that are normally my responsibility, but if you throw a new responsibility my way, you've got to also play a part in getting it into "the system" or being "the system" by which reminders take place. > (But I'm with you on the attitude thing... "I will do this but please > forgive me if I space it out" seems better to me than everything > implied by "I'll try to do it but I don't want to be lectured if I > forget.") If my husband wants me to do something out of the ordinary during the day, I tell him he must call me to remind me at an appropriate time, or I cannot be held responsible. Like Jen said, it's not a matter of priorities. I forget high priority stuff, including my own, all the time. >>>>>> What does "try" mean? >>>>>> You either stop at the store and pick up the eggs or you don't. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > pretty damn good at remembering stuff, but a backup system is good, > too. Yeah. I am reconsidering my sytance on it and have changed my mind completely in favor of yours and others more reasonable view. I am pleased and happy at *our* solution that we came with. I can see now where you all are coming from. There really isnt anything fundamentally wrong with a different way of looking at it. *I* felt badly when *my* husband did it. And we came to an equitable solution. > I don't know. I've said so many times about my ex and his inability > to call and let me know if he was going to be late, and how that [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > implied by "I'll try to do it but I don't want to be lectured if I > forget.") >>>>>>> What does "try" mean? >>>>>>> You either stop at the store and pick up the eggs or you don't. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >different way of looking at it. *I* felt badly when *my* husband did it. And >we came to an equitable solution. I have really come to believe, sort of obvious though this is, that all of the best solutions are ones where everybody gets some of what they need. > Everybody gets to set their own limits of what responsibility they will > accept. You don't beleive it is your responsibility to manage THOSE tasks. > But Rog's attitude would make me feel like the things that would be helpful > to me are not a priority. Maybe your memory is simply better. My memory sucks. I frequently forget to do things that are a priority to ME! jen > Well, I do actually tell my students that they need to remind > and badger me to do certain things, or at minimum write me > an email so that I have a written record somewhere. We have a Google Doc entitled "Shopping List." I have told my wife that I will check it before leaving work and pick up whatever she puts on it. But she won't use it, preferring to hope that I'll remember what she said while I was walking out the door on my way to work. IMHO, "I'll try," is not unreasonable under those circumstances. >> Well, I do actually tell my students that they need to remind >> and badger me to do certain things, or at minimum write me [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I was walking out the door on my way to work. IMHO, > "I'll try," is not unreasonable under those circumstances. See I would be all over your approach. That is the kinda thing that works great for us. I agree that "I'll try" is not unreasonable. I send an email or IM list. He drags it or copies it into outlook. He sets a calendar reminder to beep shortly before leaving. >>> Well, I do actually tell my students that they need to remind >>> and badger me to do certain things, or at minimum write me [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > send an email or IM list. He drags it or copies it into outlook. He > sets a calendar reminder to beep shortly before leaving. When DH says "I'll try" he usually also gives a reason. Like, "I'll try, but I have a 5 o'clock meeting and I don't know how long it's going to run." If he doesn't give a reason, then I know he means, "Ok, I'll do it, but I really don't want to." It's rare that I need a 100% guarantee that something will get done, but if I do, and he said "I'll try" then I'd tell him never to mind and I'd do it myself. I'm the the that is *much* more likely to forget, and that's despite using reminders and alarms. The most common reason being that I forget to put in the reminder in the first place. But I'll also forget to do things that I'm afraid to do. And there are quite a few of those, most involving picking up the phone and calling someone. I really have to steel myself to do that, so I tend to put it off and put it off. Zorra >>>> Well, I do actually tell my students that they need to remind >>>> and badger me to do certain things, or at minimum write me [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >and calling someone. I really have to steel myself to do that, so I tend to put >it off and put it off. Me too. Actually, one of the interesting things that I've learned from the internet is how many people are just as phone-phobic as I am. It's kind of comforting. >>>>> Well, I do actually tell my students that they need to remind >>>>> and badger me to do certain things, or at minimum write me [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > from the internet is how many people are just as phone-phobic as I am. > It's kind of comforting. It makes sense, in a way - 'cause phone-a-phobes will gravitate toward the internet, not the phone! >>Actually, one of the interesting things that I've learned >> from the internet is how many people are just as phone-phobic >> as I am. It's kind of comforting. > It makes sense, in a way - 'cause phone-a-phobes will gravitate > toward the internet, not the phone! When I was a child (in my 20's), I found the phone to be an excellent device for chatting up GF's and would drive roommates batty tying up the line, but then that was B4 the advent of the web and newgroups for the masses. These days, its fairly common to rely upon e-mailing, IM'ing and cellular-texting as a substitution for connecting thru verbal conversation. Use of the telephone for speaking may soon be obsolete. I wonder how long it will be B4 we humans lose the capacity to speak to each other, other than to say, "text me?" =R= >>> Actually, one of the interesting things that I've learned >>> from the internet is how many people are just as phone-phobic [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > wonder how long it will be B4 we humans lose the capacity to > speak to each other, other than to say, "text me?" =R= At least you grew up in a time when there were telephones. > And there are quite a few of those, most involving picking up the phone > and calling someone. I really have to steel myself to do that, so I tend to put > it off and put it off. Sistah. The only thing that I gets me to do this phone-calling thing at all is the knowledge that my husband is even more phone-phobic than I am! (birds of a feather or something). We're really pathetic in the evenings, because we'll both sit there looking at the ringing phone until one of the kids answers. >> And there are quite a few of those, most involving picking up the phone >> and calling someone. I really have to steel myself to do that, so I tend to put [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >evenings, because we'll both sit there looking at the ringing phone >until one of the kids answers. I personally think that it really helps if you try for two rules when picking a spouse: 1. They have to like bananas the opposite way you do... that is, I like almost green bananas, and he like overripe bananas. 2. If you're phone-phobic, try really hard to marry someone who doesn't give a damn. Nothing else is really important. ;-) > But I'll also forget to do things that I'm afraid > to do. And there are quite a few of those, most involving picking up the phone > and calling someone. I really have to steel myself to do that, so I tend to put > it off and put it off. I admit I don't like picking up the diet coke simply because it's heavy. And also I don't think anyone should be drinking that crap. Yet one of my favorite things to do is to surprise DH with a carton of cokes every now and then - when he hasn't asked, and just because. jen >> Well, I do actually tell my students that they need to remind >> and badger me to do certain things, or at minimum write me [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I was walking out the door on my way to work. IMHO, >"I'll try," is not unreasonable under those circumstances. Makes total sense to me. > >>> What does "try" mean? > >>> You either stop at the store and pick up the eggs or you don't. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I think a better approach might be, phone me about when I usually > leave work (or whatever) and remind me. Because we are getting old and our memories frequently fail us, we have an ongoing joke around here. One of us will say to the other, "Honey, recollect to me that I need to do XYZ later." Then the other immediately pipes up, "Honey, you need to do XYZ later!" Get it? Or maybe that doesn't translate well unless you're there... hmm... The joke is that instead of reminding later, we remind immediately, because we'll forget to remind the person who tends to forget later... jen >> >>> What does "try" mean? >> >>> You either stop at the store and pick up the eggs or you don't. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >because we'll forget to remind the person who tends to forget >later... Actually we have the same joke, which is kind of pathetic really. :-) > >> What does "try" mean? > >> You either stop at the store and pick up the eggs or you don't. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > will and maybe I wont, but it is not important enough for me to actually > write myself a note? Stephanie, you and your H are too perfect. I forget stuff like this all the time, and I feel very grateful that my H doesn't interpret it as me thinking it isn't important enough. > >>> The phrase that strikes fear into the hearts of men, "Honey, > >>> we need to talk." [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > It is not instinct. There is something wrong in your relationship if you > feel the need to think that. IMO. Well, it sounds just like my H. Maybe there is "something wrong" in our relationship. It certainly isn't perfect. But it is possible for people to interact differently than you and your H do, without it being wrong. >>>> What does "try" mean? >>>> You either stop at the store and pick up the eggs or you don't. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Stephanie, you and your H are too perfect. Was that an attempt at being mean? Cuz that sounds pretty nasty. We are far from perfect. > I forget stuff like this > all the time, and I feel very grateful that my H doesn't interpret it > as me thinking it isn't important enough. Luckily for me, DH agreed to do something about it. He puts a reminder in Outlook that beeps with his list right as he is about to walk out the door. That is what I mean by routine and habit. Lucky for you it is not on your DH's hot list. >>>>> The phrase that strikes fear into the hearts of men, "Honey, >>>>> we need to talk." [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > people to interact differently than you and your H do, without it > being wrong. Yes that was too strong. But if you feel your spouse is going to attack you for doing something wrong, it is not the most positive environment to live in. I would think. >>>>> What does "try" mean? >>>>> You either stop at the store and pick up the eggs or you don't. [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > you for doing something wrong, it is not the most positive environment to > live in. I would think. Oh wait! I see what you read and what I said. This is a case of tone and jocularity not coming through the written (and brief) land of usnet. When I said "there is something wrong with your relationship" I was joking around like MAAAAN do YOU have problems!?!? In verbal language it would have sounded like, Oh Ok different strokes for different folks. Or I concede how that kinda thing goes. Picture facial expression all fake serious. It is NOT instinct. Geesh Ok I feel it is too bad if you feel you have to tip toe around your spouse, that is too bad. But I was not trying to say Rog is doomed or anything. Yeah it came out all wrong. ...slinking... >>>>>> What does "try" mean? >>>>>> You either stop at the store and pick up the eggs or you don't. [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > ...slinking... My apologies. I will stop replying to myself now. > Yes that was too strong. But if you feel your spouse is going to attack you > for doing something wrong, it is not the most positive environment to live > in. I would think. Alternatively it could be because Rog grew up in an environment like that, and his first marriage was like that. He may simply be used to jumping to that assumption... even if his spouse and the environment is completely different and positive. DH will do this often; I'm sure I do it myself, but I happen to notice when DH does it. He'll react in a way that I have to remind him that I'm not his first wife. jen >> Yes that was too strong. But if you feel your spouse is going to >> attack you for doing something wrong, it is not the most positive [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > jen Yep. I stand oft corrected in this thread. And rightly so. >> [I]t could be because Rog grew up in an environment [where >> he was used to being attacked for doing something wrong], >> and his first marriage was like that. He may simply be used to >> jumping to that assumption... even if his spouse and the >> environment is completely different and positive. --------------- For the most part, my wife leaves me alone to do as I please (a/k/a "a long leash"). But the "we need to talk" expression means that she's noticed something I did or failed to do, and that I'll need to come up with some plausible excuse without enuff time to prepare one. Usually this means that I must either admit that I screwed up or sell her on some flimsy rationale... I do have a short list of the ones that work. > >>>> What does "try" mean? > >>>> You either stop at the store and pick up the eggs or you don't. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Was that an attempt at being mean? Cuz that sounds pretty nasty. We are far > from perfect. Mean? No! A bit exasperated maybe, due to falling short on several of your guidelines lately. But I much enjoyed all the replying to yourself you did downstream. :-) >>>>>> What does "try" mean? >>>>>> You either stop at the store and pick up the eggs or you don't. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > of your guidelines lately. But I much enjoyed all the replying to > yourself you did downstream. :-) I *do* sometimes read into someone's post and see the way it went down for us without recognizing that it does not always present the same for others. > You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > They say they really don't want to do it. Did he say why he wouldn't do it? > You know they are already heading out close to the same destination, > and you point that out, easy to pick it up in their travels. > They still refuse. Once again, why didn't he want to do it. > You let them know you have had a rough day and are helping one of the > kids study for a test. I would have just said Ok, I'll do it. > Still no. > Everything was said with a please, but they keep refusing straight at [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > favor, so you call out and tell them it is okay, you are here now > anyway. If it were me, Vickie, I would have let him do it, instead of letting him off the hook. Do you guys have cell phones? > Would you now be happy that they had changed their mind? Nope. I would have been happy if he CALLED me and told me he changed his mind > Would you be pissed that you still ended up stopping something you > were doing, but found that you could have stayed home all along? Yep. > Would you wonder what kind of mind game your spouse was pulling on > you? Too complex, wasn't a mind game at all. Just being plain thoughtless. > Would you think that, oh, he must have felt guilty and changed his > mind, isn't that nice? Nope. wasn't being nice at all. Being nice is giving you a damn good reason why he couldn't run the errand. Being nice is calling you and telling you he could do the errand for you. Sad thing is, it's going to keep happening. Clearly not a lot of respect shown. You're just a player in his world. > The spouse arrives home after you and clearly thinks they have done > you a favor. > > Your response is....... My response: "WTF is your problem! Why did you waste my time and yours? Fair enough you didn't want to do this for me, but why did you make me drive all they way out there if you were going to do it anyway?" You wanna hear something totally opposite? I have a hen-pecked co- worker. His wife has a VERY nasty habit of asking stop off and buy stuff at the store right before he has an appointment somewhere. For example, he had a class he attends around 6pm. she call him at work right at 5 and ask him to stop off at the store and buy milk. This was during the summer time so he would have to get the milk, drive him and drop it off and rush to school. He didn't mind normally but why could she ask him at earlier in the day? He could have left work early, got the milk and not have to be late for school. Her reasoning was, the store is on his way home, but factor in the time to actually go in, get the milk, go home and then go to the school from his house, rather than him going straight to school from work is a huge inconvience. She would aslo tell him her car doesn't have any gas right before he goes to work in the morning so they have to switch cars, meaning he would have to get gas in the car before he went to work. She would actully tell him as he is walking out with his briefcase. Typically example of someone not being considerate of someone else time. Don't mean to throw fire in a bad situation, but it was clearly a lack of respect on his part toward you. Vickie, I'm seeing that is the root of most your problems with the hubby. He doesn't seem to value your time. Clearly the part about the dog getting sick (from an earlier post) and it's YOUR job to clean it up. In his mind, it's YOUR job to do these little errands and if he pitches in, well, he doing you a favor. Question. When he looks after the kids, is it considered babysitting? EB > > You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > > They say they really don't want to do it. > > Did he say why he wouldn't do it? Kind of. He didn't want to talk to the clerk. > > You know they are already heading out close to the same destination, > > and you point that out, easy to pick it up in their travels. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I would have just said Ok, I'll do it. That would have been nice. > > Still no. > > Everything was said with a please, but they keep refusing straight at [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Too complex, wasn't a mind game at all. Just being plain thoughtless. Okay. Sometimes it feels as if he purposely wants to tell me no, just because. > > Would you think that, oh, he must have felt guilty and changed his > > mind, isn't that nice? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > respect shown. > You're just a player in his world. And how do I become more important? > > The spouse arrives home after you and clearly thinks they have done > > you a favor. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > make me drive all they way out there if you were going to do it > anyway?" lol, yeah > You wanna hear something totally opposite? I have a hen-pecked co- > worker. His wife has a VERY nasty habit of asking stop off and buy [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > up. In his mind, it's YOUR job to do these little errands and if he > pitches in, well, he doing you a favor. Yes. It feels like, if the request comes from me, he thinks either, I am asking too much of him, that I think he does nothing, or it was my idea so *you* deal with it. > Question. When he looks after the kids, is it considered babysitting? Well, sort of. I do feel rushed when I go out to hurry and get home. Lately though, I have tried to change that way of thinking. Vickie > You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Everything was said with a please, but they keep refusing straight at > your face, not budging from their no. This is the point at which your spouse has done something hurtful and unkind. He took something of valuable of yours and broke it. What he did later on is like taking the pieces and gluing them back together half-asssed on the sly, and sticking it back up on shelf as if nothing had ever happened. It's a half-assed way to make amends, and even trying to make amends doesn't just make everything "ok" (let alone "positive") or erase the fact that he did a rotten thing in the first place. > You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > The spouse arrives home after you and clearly thinks they have done > you a favor. I guess I would ask in what way he feels he did me a favor when I had to go out anyway. > Your response is....... > > Vickie > > You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > > They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > I guess I would ask in what way he feels he did me a favor when I had to go > out anyway. Maybe in the few "no's" he issued I was supposed to figure out he meant yes? That I should have somehow known he would do it and it is my fault I ended up going in the first place? Vickie > You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Vickie I'm kind of surprised that he was able to put down the video game long enough to leave the house in the first place. Sorry, I had to say it. > X-No-Archive:yes > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > I'm kind of surprised that he was able to put down the video game long > enough to leave the house in the first place. Sorry, I had to say it.- Maybe because his computer has been on the blink for a few days now. I don't know if I *want* Dell to come out or not. Vickie > You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Your response is....... I think we need to know what the favor was!! Did you ask him to pick you up tampons or yeast infection cream or something he considered embarrassing? jen > > You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > > They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > - Show quoted text - You know, I don't know why guys get so uptight about buying that crap. I can't count the number of boxes of tampons I have walked out of the store with. I think most people realize that the tampons aren't for me. >> You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. >> They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > jen LOL! Many years ago, way before we were married, DH went into a store to get me tampons. The woman behind the counter said "Tell her I said you're a keeper." :) > >> You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > >> They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > me tampons. The woman behind the counter said "Tell her I said you're a > keeper." :) DH used to have no problems buying my "supplies" for me... until my DD's hit that age. And now it's just too embarrassing... to have an armful ... as if we are buying out the whole shelf... enough for a friggin' army... !! Even I mind it... especially since my girls want different brands etc and will refuse to help me carry any of it and will hide out in the aisles until it's all bagged, then walk 10 feet behind me as we're leaving so they look like they're not with that hemorraghing pre-menopausal lady. But we solved that: we just order online now. DH will sometimes ask me to do an errand that he then makes ultra- complicated so I really don't want to do it. For example, it's not enough that I pick him up some Diet Coke: it has to be from THIS particular drugstore, that is having a sale. It has to be diet coke not coke plus or coke without caffeine or coke classic or the coke in a bottle - only cans will do. And I need to get at least three cases. Unless it's a "5-fer" sale, then I need to buy 5 cases. And I cannot forget to use the coupons. Yes, I have been known to say no in face of all these stipulations. And then sometimes do it anyway. To his credit, at least he rushes out to the car when I get home, and lugs it all in so I don't have to! Meanwhile, when I ask him to pick me up something at the store, 9 out of 10 times, he will buy a different brand than requested, because it was on sale. Even if I've already explained that cheap laundry detergent is sooo not worth the price (makes my skin itch and doesn't get out the stains). So I've learned only to ask for those things that I don't care particularly how he might "interpret" the request. Same goes if it's something I need done in a particular time-frame. I figure I am asking for a favor, not making a demand. If I am particular about things, then I just do it myself. I suppose in the scenario Vicki described - if it was DH making stipulations about a Diet Coke run he wanted me to make - and I said no but we both drove up to the store at the same time - he and I would laugh our butts off over it. And then go in together and get twice as many cases. jen > > You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > > They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > you up tampons or yeast infection cream or something he considered > embarrassing? It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a project at school He was going to the store next to the grocery store, so I just thought, maybe. Again, I really shouldn't have asked. Vickie > It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her Kindergarten > class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a project at school > He was going to the store next to the grocery store, so I just > thought, maybe. Again, I really shouldn't have asked. DH would have objected to this on several grounds. 1. If I volunteer for something, he doesn't want me to rope him into it. 2. He wouldn't think it was "right" to ask the store for the grocery bags. He would be more likely to go buy something than to go ask a favor. He hates asking favors of anyone. Except that he wouldn't buy them either, because of 1. 3. Even if it was a more normal family errand, like "Could you pick up some bread?" he wouldn't want to do it, because he had in his head what he wanted to do, and he'd be annoyed at having anything added to that, even if it seemed minor to me. Zorra > > It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her Kindergarten > > class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a project at school [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > do, and he'd be annoyed at having anything added to that, even if it seemed > minor to me. Yes for him on most of this. On number 2, I did tell him to just ask to buy the bags. But he refuses to order a pizza, so I should have known. Vickie >> > It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her Kindergarten >> > class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a project at school [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >On number 2, I did tell him to just ask to buy the bags. But he >refuses to order a pizza, so I should have known. Well... ok, this kind of seems a little more understandable to me in a way. I mean... to me, this is a little like my own phone phobia. I'm not quite at the level of not being willing to order a pizza... but I order them online now that Pizza Hut lets you do it that way (well, actually, I just don't eat pizza these days, but that's another story). There probably was a time when I would have found that kind of clerk interaction very difficult... I would have had to rehearse it in my head a whole bunch of times. I am like that with all of these sorts of things; I think it's a form of shyness. I'm perfectly happy if I have a role, if I know people, if I know what I'm supposed to be doing. And I'm not so much like this in person any more. But, well, I can really understand having this HUGE reluctance to do something like this, stupid though it may seem. And I might well have done something kind of like what he did... said no, and then went over it in my head for a while, had time to make it seem ok to me, and then feel fine about doing it. But that, in my mind, possibly explains but does not excuse his actions. I mean, if it's that kind of thing, he should be able to say so, especially by this time. I mean, I freely say, I loathe making phone calls. Please someone else do this for me. But if you give me enough time, I'll usually get around to doing it. > On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:33:16 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > phone calls. Please someone else do this for me. But if you give me > enough time, I'll usually get around to doing it.- Hide quoted text - Thanks for the info. Maybe it is how jen said that it was not just a p/u type of chore, but something with demands outside his comfort zone? Either way, I really feel that I am better off not asking for much of anything right now. Even if it was just to pick up a bag of Easter candy. Vickie >> <lilliputianbizz...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her Kindergarten [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >Maybe it is how jen said that it was not just a p/u type of chore, but >something with demands outside his comfort zone? This does seem possible to me. But on the other hand, he *should* be able to say, I'm just not comfortable with that (and have you be ok with it, too). He didn't say that; instead he just acted like it was too much of a hassle for him to do, if I'm reading this right. >Either way, I really feel that I am better off not asking for much of >anything right now. Even if it was just to pick up a bag of Easter >candy. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, you know the drill. If you don't put yourself out there, you can't get hurt. But you can't get anything good, either. You really need to put yourself ahead of the other crap, and even if you don't want to, put some time into finding a therapist you like. Seriously. > On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:18:47 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > you don't want to, put some time into finding a therapist you like. > Seriously. - Hide quoted text - Maybe now that I have some time, I will. V >>> On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:33:16 -0700 (PDT), Vickie >>> [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > you don't want to, put some time into finding a therapist you like. > Seriously. A marriage therapist for BOTH of them, I think you mean. >>>> On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 14:33:16 -0700 (PDT), Vickie >>>> [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > >A marriage therapist for BOTH of them, I think you mean. No, that's not what I mean. He won't go, at the moment anyway. I mean a therapist for Vickie, to deal with some of her own issues, so she can figure out how to deal with her marriage. And so she can get some of the support that she is definitely NOT getting at home. >>> It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her >>> Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Vickie Does he have anxiety issues? My BIL is afraid to go to the store. I wonder what it is like for folks who don't recognize these issues. It must be brutal to know that everyone else can go to the store comfortably, but not only can you not, you don't know why and feel weird about saying Gee honey the store terrifies me. >> [H]e refuses to order a pizza, so I should have known. Did you know that you can order a pizza online. Check out www.pizzahut.com or other franchise pizza outfits. It beats being placed on hold and having them mess up your order. > >> [H]e refuses to order a pizza, so I should have known. > > Did you know that you can order a pizza online. Check outwww.pizzahut.comor other franchise pizza outfits. It beats > being placed on hold and having them mess up your order. I had no idea until this thread, still *I* don't have a problem doing it so, it may as well be me. I don't mind. Vickie > >>> It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her > >>> Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > only can you not, you don't know why and feel weird about saying Gee honey > the store terrifies me.- Hide quoted text - I know anxiety issues back and forth. And he knows I would understand completely if that was the issue. Vickie >> >>> It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her >> >>> Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >Vickie >> >>> It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her >> >>> Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >Vickie Oops, hit send before without writing anything. I hate it when I do that. Just for the sake of discussion... it is certainly possible that he might have anxiety or social phobia or some kind of issues and either not be really aware of it in some rational cognizant kind of way or feel in some sense ashamed of it, even though he knows you would understand. Sometimes I think we want the problem to just go away rather than to have someone understand it, acknowledge it, and make it real. > On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:55:05 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > rather than to have someone understand it, acknowledge it, and make it > real.- Hide quoted text - That could be a real issue. Maybe that is why he is angry so much, because it is so limiting? But see, I have to seperate my own anxiety issues to try and see what someone else is really going through. It is hard. I can recognize signs in others and see degrees of it, but I don't trust myself to look at it objectively. So I am not sure how I can help him with this, if this is really the case. Vickie >> <lilliputianbizz...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >>> It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] >look at it objectively. So I am not sure how I can help him with >this, if this is really the case. Well, those things aside, if he's not able to see that this is any part of what's going on, you can't much help him with it anyway. But it's slightly interesting food for thought. >>> It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her >>> Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > On number 2, I did tell him to just ask to buy the bags. But he > refuses to order a pizza, so I should have known. DH refuses to order pizza either, though he doesn't seem to have a phone anxiety as far as I can tell. One other thing I thought of after I sent this was that if he *did* decide to stop and get them, then he probably would not call, hoping to surprise me. I just don't think it would occur to him that I'd go right then to do it. So while doing it after all doesn't wipe out the jerkiness of flat out "no"s with no reason or discussion, I do think he was honestly trying to do something nice. Zorra > >>> It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her > >>> Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > with no reason or discussion, I do think he was honestly trying to do something > nice. Probably. He *is* that type and probably why he wore that look when he got home (the I did something nice for you look) and the things he said. We discussed some things a bit, nothing in detail and short and simple tonight, but that is better than nothing. And he did try to joke a little by trying to just arm wrestle all our problems away. Who knows maybe some of the subtle and not so subtle changes will help. I am still working hard daily to change my way of thinking. The computer is really on the fritz. He spent maybe 4 hours on the phone with Dell again tonight. After replacing mother-board and hard- drive and checking all hardware, support supervisor thinks that since the Vista was so new when we got it, that the mother-board is not recognizing the Vista reinstallation disc, or something like that. So, the support team said they hadn't run across this problem before and are now trying to simulate our problem to figure out what to do. Whoops, I went off there a bit. Anyway, he is really p.o.'d about the whole thing, so the kids and I are giving him a wide berth for the time being. I am exhausted; the Kindergartner's ran me wild today. I am calling it a night. Vickie >>>>> It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her >>>>> Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > So, the support team said they hadn't run across this problem before > and are now trying to simulate our problem to figure out what to do. I've got a solution for ya. Dump Vista, reformat, and freshly install WinXP (while you can still get it). In other words, UPGRADE to XP. :-) > Whoops, I went off there a bit. Anyway, he is really p.o.'d about the > whole thing, so the kids and I are giving him a wide berth for the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Vickie >>>>>>It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her >>>>>>Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > In other words, UPGRADE to XP. :-) I'd vote for a Mac! >>Whoops, I went off there a bit. Anyway, he is really p.o.'d about the >>whole thing, so the kids and I are giving him a wide berth for the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >>Vickie >>>>>>> It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her >>>>>>> Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > I'd vote for a Mac! What is that? > >>>>> It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her > >>>>> Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > In other words, UPGRADE to XP. :-) You are going to laugh your a.s off when you hear this. Support actually *tried* to install XP...no go. I got a brief run down on how OS's work and unfortunately this is the kind of thing that can happen when you want cutting-edge. There is a "package" or something or other coming out (or is out) for Vista, suppose to fix a lot of the probs. You wonder why they just don't hold off promoting/selling the new OS until all is worked out very throughly, but being married to a software developer their are advantages and disadvantages to the consumer when doing this. Sometimes you got to just put it out there and keep on it until the next upgrade comes out. Oh geez, I have a feeling you are going to ream me good for this post, Bill! Yikes. Vickie >>>>>>> It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her >>>>>>> Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > You are going to laugh your a.s off when you hear this. > Support actually *tried* to install XP...no go. They actually tried that? (I *am* a bit surprised!) > I got a brief run down on how OS's work and unfortunately this is the > kind of thing that can happen when you want cutting-edge. Lovely. :-( f.ck cutting-edge. (lol, how did we ever live w/o cell phones? nevermind) > There is a "package" or something or other coming out (or is out) for > Vista, suppose to fix a lot of the probs. I have vaguely heard of such rumors... > You wonder why they just don't hold off promoting/selling the new OS > until all is worked out very throughly, I don't wonder. It's just Microsoft's $$ greed at work here. Why was Vista even created in the first place? Same answer: Microsoft felt the need to sell a new operating system solely to make more money, and that's the ONLY reason. Whether anyone really wants it is apparently immaterial. As of June this year (it was originally the past January), OEM's will NOT be allowed to install Windows XP. (unless MS moves the deadline again) > but being married to a > software developer their are advantages and disadvantages to the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Vickie Nah. I'm a bit too compassionate for that here. You have my condolences. Although maybe it's nice he's not gaming anymore? :-) On Mar 21, 12:12 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>>>>>> It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her > >>>>>>> Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > f.ck cutting-edge. (lol, how did we ever live w/o cell phones? > nevermind) Some how I *knew* this would be your response. > > There is a "package" or something or other coming out (or is out) for > > Vista, suppose to fix a lot of the probs. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > OEM's will NOT be allowed to install Windows XP. (unless MS moves the > deadline again) I am sure money has to do with a lot of it. At the same time a company is always working to improve and add new technology to its product. Also, an OS is not like most other products. Not taking it off the market at some point raises compatibility issues and then consumers get more pissed about not being able to get this or that because of the older version. > > but being married to a > > software developer their are advantages and disadvantages to the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Nah. I'm a bit too compassionate for that here. You have my condolences. Cool. > Although maybe it's nice he's not gaming anymore? :-)- Hide quoted text - You are kidding? He has WOW downloaded on his mac laptop. Vickie >>>>> It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her >>>>> Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > he got home (the I did something nice for you look) and the things he > said. Well, after seeing me at the store, I don't think he'd still be thinking/looking like that. I think he'd be ticked off at me. > We discussed some things a bit, nothing in detail and short and simple > tonight, but that is better than nothing. And he did try to joke a > little by trying to just arm wrestle all our problems away. :-) > Who knows maybe some of the subtle and not so subtle changes will > help. I am still working hard daily to change my way of thinking. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > whole thing, so the kids and I are giving him a wide berth for the > time being. Ooh, yeah. DH doesn't even use the computer much, but boy....if it was blown out, he'd spend every waking moment trying to get it fixed. > I am exhausted; the Kindergartner's ran me wild today. I am calling > it a night. I hope you were able to rest. :-) Zorra > >> So while doing it after all doesn't wipe out the jerkiness of flat > >> out "no"s with no reason or discussion, I do think he was honestly [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Well, after seeing me at the store, I don't think he'd still be thinking/looking > like that. I think he'd be ticked off at me. Maybe *my* look didn't give him the opportunity. > > We discussed some things a bit, nothing in detail and short and simple > > tonight, but that is better than nothing. And he did try to joke a > > little by trying to just arm wrestle all our problems away. > > :-) Yeah. > > Who knows maybe some of the subtle and not so subtle changes will > > help. I am still working hard daily to change my way of thinking. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Ooh, yeah. DH doesn't even use the computer much, but boy....if it was blown > out, he'd spend every waking moment trying to get it fixed. Yep, exactly. > > I am exhausted; the Kindergartner's ran me wild today. I am calling > > it a night. > > I hope you were able to rest. :-) Meh....DD5 came and woke me in the middle of the night. Her sleeping pattern has been a bit off since the time change. I hope I can get her back on track soon. Vickie >>>>>> It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her >>>>>> Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > Zorra At least you notice that your DH exists. DL. -- What are counsellors but people paid to listen? Why are they needed? (Answer obvious.) -- Discussion in counselling course. >>>>>>> It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her >>>>>>> Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] >> > At least you notice that your DH exists. Are you implying your DW doesn't think you exist? If so, sorry to hear that. >>>>>>> It wasn't anything personal. It was for Natalie, for her >>>>>>> Kindergarten class. They needed some paper grocery bags for a [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > DL. I'm sure he thinks I don't though. Zorra > Ooh, yeah. DH doesn't even use the computer much, but boy....if it was blown > out, he'd spend every waking moment trying to get it fixed. So would I, I must admit. (A) we need it; and (B) this thing is not going to defeat me! >> Ooh, yeah. DH doesn't even use the computer much, but boy....if it >> was blown out, he'd spend every waking moment trying to get it fixed. > > So would I, I must admit. (A) we need it; and (B) this thing is not > going to defeat me! For him it's more that he gets this really sick feeling in his stomach when things are broken or go wrong. I'd hate to be him...all twisted up inside over material things. Zorra > Would you now be happy that they had changed their mind? Yes > Would you be pissed that you still ended up stopping something you > were doing, but found that you could have stayed home all along? That is likely to happen, but how those reactionary feelings are handled says more. > Would you wonder what kind of mind game your spouse was pulling on > you? Under normal circumstances, no > Would you think that, oh, he must have felt guilty and changed his > mind, isn't that nice? That would cross my mind. > The spouse arrives home after you and clearly thinks they have done > you a favor. fine > Your response is....... Based on this post, it's clear you're unsure how to feel and behave in even minor situations where conflict can and or does result. I don't think this is good for your emotional state. SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) > > Would you now be happy that they had changed their mind? > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > even minor situations where conflict can and or does result. I don't > think this is good for your emotional state. I had a feeling you would feel this way. And it is somewhat true. But curiosity got the better of me. My response to my husband was, "I really would like to be happy in the fact that you changed your mind, but I can't get passed how you wouldn't even consider it and told me no, no, no. It wasn't even really a favor for me. It was for OUR daughter and her class. Maybe it was going to be uncomfortable for you, but sometimes we have to do those types of things. So, I just don't know how I feel about it." And then we just moved on. Vickie > > > Would you now be happy that they had changed their mind? > > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > it was going to be uncomfortable for you, but sometimes we have to do > those types of things. So, I just don't know how I feel about it." I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what if instead of ending with the ambiguous "So I just don't know how I feel about it" you had ended with "So I'm pissed off at you about it." That might have been provocative. But just as likely it would have been an indication to your husband that his selfishness and uncooperativeness have consequences, and that you value yourself enough to complain unambiguously when he arbitrarily refuses to consider making a contribution to the work of the family. On Mar 21, 7:58 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Would you now be happy that they had changed their mind? > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > enough to complain unambiguously when he arbitrarily refuses to > consider making a contribution to the work of the family. You are right. And I had been considering your other post too. I recently asked him not to make me guess if he reconsiders doing a favor for me. That it just gives me confused feelings. I struggle with keeping my distance but still being vocal with my feelings. I also struggle with feeling like I am on a time-frame, like a statute of limitations for bad feelings. At what point does discussing something turn into harping or making sure the person understands what you are getting at, where you are coming from? See, maybe my closure needs something different than his closure. I hate feeling like I can't say something! I have gone a long time feeling this way. Vickie > On Mar 21, 7:58 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > I struggle with keeping my distance but still being vocal with my > feelings. Yes, that can be hard. I'm not sure if keeping one's distance is really what one wants to do. I think of it more as expressing one's feelings without attacking the other person. > I also struggle with feeling like I am on a time-frame, like a statute > of limitations for bad feelings. At what point does discussing > something turn into harping or making sure the person understands what > you are getting at, where you are coming from? To me it is less of a time frame than the number of times one brings up a single incident. I feel OK talking about something that upset me a day or two later, but I don't feel so good about bringing it up for the third time. > See, maybe my closure needs something different than his closure. Well, especially (as in this case) where he has done something hurtful. He probably doesn't want _any_ closure - in fact he'd like it not to even get opened! > I hate feeling like I can't say something! I have gone a long time > feeling this way. OK, now _I'm_ harping on something: I think this is the kind of thing one can get a lot of help dealing with from seeing a good counselor! On Mar 21, 8:20 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Mar 21, 7:58 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > really what one wants to do. I think of it more as expressing one's > feelings without attacking the other person. I was thinking more along the lines of the whole seperating myself. > > I also struggle with feeling like I am on a time-frame, like a statute > > of limitations for bad feelings. At what point does discussing [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > a day or two later, but I don't feel so good about bringing it up for > the third time. Yeah. I think he feels a *second* time is too much. Just that when I am in the heat of the moment, or hurt, I kind of blank-out or don't say what really needs to be said, or it is not a good time. I don't think it is fair to be demanded to resolve it all in one fell swoop. I also don't want to feel I am dragging something out just to poke at him. > > See, maybe my closure needs something different than his closure. > > Well, especially (as in this case) where he has done something > hurtful. He probably doesn't want _any_ closure - in fact he'd like > it not to even get opened! Yep. And in the last couple years I feel he is on auto-pilot to just shoot me down. We had some good months right after he quit WOW, but now it is back to basics. Well, not completely as bad as it was, I will admit that. Some things have improved so.... > > I hate feeling like I can't say something! I have gone a long time > > feeling this way. > > OK, now _I'm_ harping on something: I think this is the kind of thing > one can get a lot of help dealing with from seeing a good counselor. Keep harping. Maybe my fears of going will lessen. Vickie > I recently asked him not to make me guess if he reconsiders doing a > favor for me. That it just gives me confused feelings. I like this. Well done. Is it possible for you to own your feelings just that little bit more and say "I feel... when..." rather than imply that his behaviour is /making you/ react in a certain way? It may seem insignificant, but it will probably make a bit of a difference in that it empowers you that little bit more. > I struggle with keeping my distance but still being vocal with my > feelings. Don't we all? Each of us in our unique way... > I also struggle with feeling like I am on a time-frame, like a statute > of limitations for bad feelings. At what point does discussing > something turn into harping or making sure the person understands what > you are getting at, where you are coming from? I think you have to feel it 'in your bones'. And if you do feel it in your bones and the other person tries to shoot you down, you will have the balls to see it through. > See, maybe my closure needs something different than his closure. This is probably not where you were going with this one... I haven't been following the thread... but I remember when Mike (my husband) and his sister were arguing and she said [crying] "I don't care if you don't love me, I still love you". It's become a bit of a thing in the family now. It helps us get through quite a few angry moments. The other party can't help but soften up... but there are times where it won't help. And only you will know when it will and won't help. > I hate feeling like I can't say something! You know what helps me? Deep down inside I know that the person who is opposing me has a part deep down inside of them that wants me to stand up and say 'respect me'. They'd prolly never admit it. Not even to themselves. But prolly nothing will convince me otherwise. I have gone a long time > feeling this way. > > Vickie I get better at standing up for myself every day. Actually I was going to delete that when I thought, perhaps you can try turning it into a mantra of sorts? - Michaela >>> Would you now be happy that they had changed their mind? >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > And then we just moved on. I would have been enormously hurt at the way your husband responded to your very reasonable request and I think you responded more generously than he deserved. I would want to know why he thought it was appropriate to say no to you in the first place. Had you just had an argument and he was angry with you? I would ask him if he thought saying no without a good reason was a healthy way to respond to a request for help from a spouse. > >>> Would you now be happy that they had changed their mind? > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > to you in the first place. Had you just had an argument and he was angry > with you? Everything was fine. He is always at some level of anger, it seems, but we hadn't fought or anything. Any request I ask of him, as small as you can think of, is never answered with a shrug and a okay. There is always some upset from him and most of the time it is no. > I would ask him if he thought saying no without a good reason was a healthy > way to respond to a request for help from a spouse. Thank you. The next time this happens, well it happened yesterday....I need a refill and I get it at the grocer, he said he was going shopping so I asked if he would pick up my refill and he acted as though I asked for the moon, but I digress........ So the next time I think I will use these words of yours specifically and see what kind of answer he gives. Vickie >>>>> Would you now be happy that they had changed their mind? >> [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > So the next time I think I will use these words of yours specifically > and see what kind of answer he gives. It would be interesting to find out! Does it seem like anything he might think of as an extra demand is a bother to him? It seems like it could be a symptom or sign of someone who just doesn't want to be engaged beyond the bare minimum. Incidentally I don't think you should be angry with yourself for asking him to help you while knowing he'd probably demur. Adjusting our expectations downwards does work sometimes but I don't think this is one of those areas where less than reasonable consideration should be accepted. Your feelings are telling you that there is something wrong and your anger is misdirected if you are applying it to you. > >>>>> Would you now be happy that they had changed their mind? > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > symptom or sign of someone who just doesn't want to be engaged beyond the > bare minimum. Yeah, that is what he wants, or it seems to be. I am not sure what that means though. I mean, I am not sure where that leaves me. > Incidentally I don't think you should be angry with yourself for asking him > to help you while knowing he'd probably demur. Adjusting our expectations > downwards does work sometimes but I don't think this is one of those areas > where less than reasonable consideration should be accepted. Your feelings > are telling you that there is something wrong and your anger is misdirected > if you are applying it to you. I am angry at myself because I feel like in asking he looks at that like I need him for every little thing. I am angry because when I asked, I hemmed and hawed and appeared weak. I am angry because I want to show him that I *don't* need him, because he feels like I ask too much of him. I want to get stronger and more independent so he sees that if he wants to be a part of my life he needs to cooperate with me and respect me. And I probably am going about it all the wrong way!! Aaaak! Vickie >>>>>>> Would you now be happy that they had changed their mind? >> [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > Yeah, that is what he wants, or it seems to be. I am not sure what > that means though. I mean, I am not sure where that leaves me. Without a fully committed spouse, I think. You can't make him re-engage but you are allowed to ask him if he ever intends to do so and make your plans from his answer. >> Incidentally I don't think you should be angry with yourself for >> asking him to help you while knowing he'd probably demur. Adjusting [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > sees that if he wants to be a part of my life he needs to cooperate > with me and respect me. Well, that does makes sense. > And I probably am going about it all the wrong way!! Aaaak! He's not playing fair, though, because he's treating all you requests as unreasonable rather than just some of them (if any of them really are, anyway). Perhaps that could be a conversation for you to initiate - negotiating what tasks you can expect occasional or regular *willing* help from him. > He's not playing fair, though, because he's treating all you requests > as unreasonable rather than just some of them (if any of them really > are, anyway). Perhaps that could be a conversation for you to initiate > - negotiating what tasks you can expect occasional or regular *willing* > help from him. He's behaving like an "a.s." I think that many women are simply not assertive enuff to call us guys on our sh*t, when we do it, either. I sometimes wonder if my 1st marriage would not have lasted longer if my ex been more willing to say, "Hon, you're acting like an a.s. Its about time for you to get you head out of it." >> He's not playing fair, though, because he's treating all you requests >> as unreasonable rather than just some of them (if any of them really [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > my ex been more willing to say, "Hon, you're acting like an a.s. Its > about time for you to get you head out of it." Er, yes, probably not something I'd have a great deal of trouble saying! But I would feel hurt first before I got angry because it would be a shock and doesn't gibe with what I think of as normal marital consideration. Or even consideration due to a friend. On the other hand it's not at all unfamiliar to me when coming from a self-absorbed teenager so I was rather struck by the analogy Nina used. It does seem to fit. >I am angry at myself because I feel like in asking he looks at that >like I need him for every little thing. I am angry because when I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >And I probably am going about it all the wrong way!! Aaaak! I don't know what the right way would be, but I do know when you really have to think out *how* to ask about something minor, there's something pretty seriously wrong. For whatever it's worth... I think that getting more independent is probably a good thing from a lot of points of view. I think you're already way stronger than you think. But overall I think that at the end of the day, you have to present him with a choice... either you participate in this family, which means (something like...) thinking of yourself as part of a team, not as a big teenager who only wants to do the stuff that he wants and when he wants... or you don't, and not participating means that you don't get the good stuff, as well as not getting the bad stuff. Right now, he really IS like a big kid. He sounds not unlike my 13 year old, who some of the time makes this enormous big issue about doing the smallest of things... "why do I have to doooooooo this? why do I have to do this noooooooooooooow?" You wouldn't put up with this from a kid; you wouldn't think you were making unreasonable demands if you asked him to do something small. But the balance of power here is all wrong. He puts on his teenager act, you cave, and then you say, ok, this is too much trouble and too much hurt, I just won't ask. And then you say, this is too much trouble to do again, and then you just do it yourself. And so, in some sense, he "wins." He doesn't have to do anything, doesn't have to participate, AND on top of that, he pushes the burden of all of the guilt and responsibility onto you. > On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 08:55:07 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > do anything, doesn't have to participate, AND on top of that, he > pushes the burden of all of the guilt and responsibility onto you. None of what you say is surprising to me. In fact most of the time when we get together with mom, at some point she tells me he needs to grow up. <big sigh> Nina, I'm so tired. I want things to work out so badly. I love him, I do. Anyway, I just got to keep plugging along. Gain that independence I need. And the advice that most here gave, where *I* am not responsible for his unhappiness has actually helped a lot. I just keep reminding myself that until I really trust it. Vickie >> On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 08:55:07 -0700 (PDT), Vickie >> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >Nina, I'm so tired. I want things to work out so badly. I love him, >I do. I know you do. And I can *hear* how tired you are. This is not really a comforting thing that I'm about to say, I think, but I also think that it's true. One of the most heartbreaking things is when you love someone, and you can just *see* that they could be... oh, I can't find the right words here... better, happier, etc., and it's not just that you want them to be different for you; it's that you can see that the way that they are now is not making them happy either. And you want to take them by the hand and say, look, here is the way, this is what you need to do, just follow me and we can all live happily even after. But they can't hear it, won't see it. This is what I did in my first marriage, and in retrospect, I don't know... I'm sure with hindsight that I could have done this all better and differently and so on, but ultimately you can't do any of this stuff for someone else; you just have to hand them the tools and hope and pray that they can figure out how to use them. My ex didn't... but I don't know, maybe it was the wrong tools, the wrong time, too much water under the bridge, too many things established. You're in a better position about this than I was, because by the time I figured a lot of these things out, I'd really given up; I didn't have the energy or the heart to try any more. >Anyway, I just got to keep plugging along. Gain that independence I >need. And the advice that most here gave, where *I* am not >responsible for his unhappiness has actually helped a lot. I just >keep reminding myself that until I really trust it. It takes a while. But I think that you're right, and that to whatever extent you can do things that are good for you... and stop enabling his bad behaviors while you're at it... you at least set the stage for him to choose what he will do, and one way or another, it's better for you. > On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 15:38:44 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > while you're at it... you at least set the stage for him to choose > what he will do, and one way or another, it's better for you.- Hide quoted text - I think so too. And thanks for the understanding and patience about all this. I want to report good news, but right now I am just kind of working it out. My anxiety has been sneaking up on me, right around when I am just drifting off to sleep. I get this startled feeling of not breathing and bolt up right in bed. The good thing is I know it is stress related and not just "out of the blue" panic. Still hate it though. But I have some things I can try to get out of the cycle. Crossing my fingers all goes well tonight. Vickie (snip) > > Right now, he really IS like a big kid. He sounds not unlike my 13 > > year old, who some of the time makes this enormous big issue about [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > when we get together with mom, at some point she tells me he needs to > grow up. Hmm. On the recalcitrant teenager theme . . . what if the next time he asks *you* for something, you say, "I'm sorry, I'm too tired from getting the bags to do you any favors right now." This has worked wonders with my kids. If they refuse to do something, and I say, "please, as a favor to me?" it suddenly occurs to them that they will be needing a favor from me very soon. > Hmm. On the recalcitrant teenager theme . . . what if the next time > he asks *you* for something, you say, "I'm sorry, I'm too tired from > getting the bags to do you any favors right now." This has worked > wonders with my kids. If they refuse to do something, and I say, > "please, as a favor to me?" it suddenly occurs to them that they will > be needing a favor from me very soon. Ooh, my DH reacts *very* badly to this kind of thing. I think he sees it as some kind of juvenile payback. Zorra >> Hmm. On the recalcitrant teenager theme . . . what if the next time >> he asks *you* for something, you say, "I'm sorry, I'm too tired from [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Ooh, my DH reacts *very* badly to this kind of thing. I think he sees it as >some kind of juvenile payback. Well, it is, I think! The trouble is that you can do this a lot better with kids than adults, although I think that the "actions have consequences" message is something that someone needs to get through to Mr. Vickie. I always think that this is such a thin ice area... I mean, you don't want to treat an adult like a child, and it's petty as hell in a lot of ways to withhold... oh, anything you like, favors or whatever else. But on the other hand, I wouldn't be very inclined to do favors for someone who can't be bothered to do things for me, ever, without a fuss. >>> Hmm. On the recalcitrant teenager theme . . . what if the next time >>> he asks *you* for something, you say, "I'm sorry, I'm too tired from [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > someone who can't be bothered to do things for me, ever, without a > fuss. I don't much care if it's petty or not, I only care whether or not it's likely to help or hurt. I know that with my husband, it's likely to hurt. He would not make the connection "Oh, I see, she's upset about what happened before. Yeah, maybe next time I should remember this and be better about helping her." Actually, I don't know what the thought process would be, I just know his action would be to say, "forget it then" in an angry voice and walk away. And I know this, because I've done similar things, and that was the result. Zorra >>> Hmm. On the recalcitrant teenager theme . . . what if the next time >>> he asks *you* for something, you say, "I'm sorry, I'm too tired from [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > someone who can't be bothered to do things for me, ever, without a > fuss. I don't tend to see it as treating an adult like a child; rather the reverse! When you tell a kid "I'm not going to do X for you until you've done Y for me" (or conversely, "I don't feel like doing X for you because you didn't cooperate in doing Y"), you are beginning to introduce them to the way the adult world works. Very young children rightly expect your routine parental devotion regardless of whether the baby has kept you up all night with colic or the 2-yo has scribbled crayon on the wall. But little by little you must introduce the conditionality by which adult relationships operate. Your employer won't keep signing your paychecks if you don't do your job. Your friends will not invite you over if you don't ever invite them over. Your spouse will not shower you with love if you treat him or her like poo. >>>> Hmm. On the recalcitrant teenager theme . . . what if the next time >>>> he asks *you* for something, you say, "I'm sorry, I'm too tired from [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > ever invite them over. Your spouse will not shower you with love if you > treat him or her like poo. What Doc said. Vickie asked: > Would you now be happy that they had changed their mind? Yes. > Would you be pissed that you still ended up stopping something you > were doing, but found that you could have stayed home all along? Yes, very. > Would you wonder what kind of mind game your spouse was pulling on > you? No. > Would you think that, oh, he must have felt guilty and changed his > mind, isn't that nice? Yes he changed his mind, maybe he felt guilty, no it isn't that nice. > Your response is....... These three, in order: 1. Get very angry and do whatever I do when I get very angry with DH. I sulk but you could shout at him, or whatever else you prefer short of physical violence. 2. I'd take a long time to calm down. Possibly days. 3. When I want him to do something and he refuses or says nothing, I'd spell it out: if you don't do the chore then I will have to go out in fifteen minutes and do the chore myself. So I need to know now - will you do the chore, or not? (Or else: you don't have to decide right now. But I need to know by 4.30, so if you decide to do it after all then call me before 4.30. If I haven't heard from you by 4.30 I will have to go and do it myself.) And if all that palaver is more trouble than doing the chore myself, then possibly I wouldn't even ask... though are dangers to that, too. Actually this kind of thing rarely happens with my DH, but I expect that's because he has a different personality from yours. My DH multi- tasks for a living and although he complains about the stress he's quite good at it :-) Whereas maybe you have someone on your hands who doesn't change his plans quickly and who doesn't think things through properly when he's on the spot. By the time he's decided to do the chore it's too late but he hasn't realised it's too late and he doesn't think out that you need to be told. Maybe it can't be helped if he's like that, but it's a royal PITA to live with, especially with the demands of 3 young kids to co-ordinate! 4. Well all right, if you like, you can feel pleased that he did want to help after all. But only so long as you *also* get really angry with him for being such a useless pudding brain, OK? > I am angry at myself because I feel like in asking he looks at that > like I need him for every little thing. I am angry because when I > asked, I hemmed and hawed and appeared weak. I am angry because I > want to show him that I *don't* need him, because he feels like I ask > too much of him. One problem to watch out for is the sense that if *his* behaviour makes *you* feel angry with him, that means *he* is trying to belittle *you* and disrespect your needs. You're angry with him because he made a mistake that seriously inconvenienced you. You asked for help, he didn't give you what you wanted, you got angry. That's 100 per cent fair enough, so don't punish yourself or tell yourself that he is punishing you for asking. > I want to get stronger and more independent so he sees that if he wants to be a part of my > life he needs to cooperate with me and respect me. Be strong and independent for your own sake first! All the best, (paddling along behind the wave as usual :-)) Cailleach > > >>>>> Would you now be happy that they had changed their mind? > [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > Vickie asked: > [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > All the best, (paddling along behind the wave as usual :-)) Thanks doll. I feel pretty good today. I told a friend last night, in a kind of drunken stupor (which I apologize for profusely) that I didn't know what I want. I want to be strong and independent and trust my instincts. Of this I have no doubt. Vickie (snip) > I want to be strong and independent and trust my instincts. Of this I > have no doubt. Those are good goals. They aren't easy ones, but I think they are possible ones. > Thank you. The next time this happens, well it happened > yesterday....I need a refill and I get it at the grocer, he said he > was going shopping so I asked if he would pick up my refill and he > acted as though I asked for the moon, but I digress........ I just gotta ask .... Is he really going shopping, or slipping out for some action on the side? Maybe he couldn't stop by the store, because he was actually going nowhere near the store.... jen > > Thank you. The next time this happens, well it happened > > yesterday....I need a refill and I get it at the grocer, he said he [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Is he really going shopping, or slipping out for some action on the > side? No, goodness no. No way. lol I mean our sex life has never been a problem. He wants, I am there. > Maybe he couldn't stop by the store, because he was actually going > nowhere near the store.... No, really, I couldn't even imagine that being the case. I do understand why you asked though. Vickie >>> Thank you. The next time this happens, well it happened >>> yesterday....I need a refill and I get it at the grocer, he said he [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I do understand why you asked though. Not to mention which, when Vickie went to the store, there he was! Zorra >>>> Thank you. The next time this happens, well it happened >>>> yesterday....I need a refill and I get it at the grocer, he said he [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Zorra Good point. I dont see affair in this scene. >>> Thank you. The next time this happens, well it happened >>> yesterday....I need a refill and I get it at the grocer, he said he [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > problem. > He wants, I am there. Sex is not the primary reason for most affairs. >> Maybe he couldn't stop by the store, because he was actually going >> nowhere near the store.... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Vickie > >>> Thank you. The next time this happens, well it happened > >>> yesterday....I need a refill and I get it at the grocer, he said he [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Sex is not the primary reason for most affairs. Yeah, that's what i seem to not get about affairs. I keep thinking it is about the sex. Vickie > > >>> Thank you. The next time this happens, well it happened > > >>> yesterday....I need a refill and I get it at the grocer, he said he [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Vickie Sex is usually where affairs end up. I think they start out by seeing in the other person areas where there current marriage is failing, attention, desire, flattery, etc. > > > >>> Thank you. The next time this happens, well it happened > > > >>> yesterday....I need a refill and I get it at the grocer, he said he [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > in the other person areas where there current marriage is failing, > attention, desire, flattery, etc.- Hide quoted text - That makes sense to me. It being the end result and not the beginning. Someone who listens to you, treats you special, has an interest in who you are and what you do, then leads up to sex. Yeah, I can understand that. Vickie > > > > >>> Thank you. The next time this happens, well it happened > > > > >>> yesterday....I need a refill and I get it at the grocer, he said he [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Vickie A very wise marriage counselor told me that when you fall in love with someone, you are actually falling in love with yourself, through the eyes of that person. I suppose the converse is try, if you see an unfaltering view of yourself through someones eyes, distance arises. >> Sex is not the primary reason for most affairs. > >Yeah, that's what i seem to not get about affairs. I keep thinking it >is about the sex. Maybe because it usually involves people sticking their weenies where they don't belong? It might not be the primary reason, but it sure is a big reason. Otherwise, people wouldn't be having sex during affairs. But then I guess it would just be a dinner date. So maybe I'm confused. SignatureLauri in WA >>> Sex is not the primary reason for most affairs. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > affairs. But then I guess it would just be a dinner date. So maybe > I'm confused. Hookers and one-night-stands are about sex. Affairs are about other stuff,...and sex, ...just like marriage is about love,...and sex. >> I would have been enormously hurt at the way your husband responded to >> your [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> to you in the first place. Had you just had an argument and he was angry >> with you? >Everything was fine. He is always at some level of anger, it seems, but we >hadn't fought or anything. >Any request I ask of him, as small as you can think of, is never >answered with a shrug and a okay. There is always some upset from him >and most of the time it is no. Maybe you've addressed this question before, but I've got to ask - is it just *you* that he is resistant to helping, or is it other people too? I think the answer to that question would be very revealing. If he's helpful to everybody but you, then that would imply a different problem than not being willing to help anybody... Your husband in some ways reminds me of somebody I used to know - a person who felt burdened by being asked to do almost anything for anybody. (Not during the work day - he'd work hard and do whatever needed to be done at work - but in his personal life). This guy was just extremely needy on some level - no matter how much you did for him, catered to him, gave to him, it was never enough. Therefore, in some unhealthy way, in his mind being asked to do even the smallest thing for somebody else was going the wrong way in his "I need to feel like people are taking care of me" deficit and he'd be very resistant and even a little snotty about it, even if he'd actually felt like he ought to do it... Could your husband be in any way like this? > >> I would have been enormously hurt at the way your husband responded to > >> your [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Could your husband be in any way like this? No, he doesn't have a problem helping out others. Although since he is pretty much anti-social there isn't much in the "doing for others" kind of thing. Work-wise he does what is assigned to him and above and beyond in most cases. If he is asked to do something that he feels is a waste of his time he will step and give reasons for his case. I am usually left with no reasons, just a refusal for help. Vickie > You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Vickie I don't know, to me the favor you was asked was to lighten your load a little since he was in the vicinity not necessarily the act of picking up the bags. Whether he as a problem with execution of the favor or not is something that he should have raised at the time, I wouldn't cut him too much slack there. Ultimately, even though he decided to go, it didn't save you the trip and really wasn't much of a favor. I often kid with my wife that ultimately, I'll do what ever she would like me to do, but I reserve the right to piss and moan about having to do it :) By the way Vickie, did you have your feet washed last night? The thursday mass befor easter is by far my favorite. > > You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > > They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > cut him too much slack there. Ultimately, even though he decided to > go, it didn't save you the trip and really wasn't much of a favor. Yeah, you know, later, I tried to make it clear that although I understood at some point he changed his mind, it didn't help me in the end. I think he may have seen my point. > I often kid with my wife that ultimately, I'll do what ever she would > like me to do, but I reserve the right to piss and moan about having > to do it :) LOL! Certainly. It is not like I am all whistling and happy happy when I have to scrub the floors! > By the way Vickie, did you have your feet washed last night? The > thursday mass befor easter is by far my favorite. No. I have been so busy and a bit drained I couldn't get myself to go. Thing is if I went, I know I would feel a lot better. My favorite is Palm Sunday. When the father goes round with the holy water and we all get a nice sprinkle. Easter is standing room only, so I am not sure which mass I will try attending this year. Probably the first of the morning, because I need to get back and hide the eggs. :-) I more than likely won't make it today either. But will pull out my book and look at the stations. I also might start a water fight with the kids (a cesky tradition), also a husband can spank his wife, lol, but I am not reminding my husband of that one! Vickie > > > You ask your spouse to do a favor for you. > > > They say they really don't want to do it. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > end. > I think he may have seen my point. I guess effort needs to be recognized as effort, I'm glad you got your point across though. > > I often kid with my wife that ultimately, I'll do what ever she would > > like me to do, but I reserve the right to piss and moan about having [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > My favorite is Palm Sunday. When the father goes round with the holy > water and we all get a nice sprinkle. Yea I like Palm Sunday, caught a little holy water myself. Actually this past Sunday was my first time as a Eucharistic minster...I was pretty nervous, but didn't spill the blood on anyone :-0 > Easter is standing room only, so I am not sure which mass I will try > attending this year. Probably the first of the morning, because I > need to get back and hide the eggs. :-) My wife is in the choir, so she sings both Thursday and Friday, so it gives me a good excuse to go. I think I'll skip the vigil, the last time I went to that was when I was confirmed, and I wasn't sure the reading of the saints was ever going to stop. > I more than likely won't make it today either. But will pull out my > book and look at the stations. > > I also might start a water fight with the kids (a cesky tradition), > also a husband can spank his wife, lol, but I am not reminding my > husband of that one! Hmmm' never heard of that one....kinky. > Vickie snip > > Yeah, you know, later, I tried to make it clear that although I > > understood at some point he changed his mind, it didn't help me in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I guess effort needs to be recognized as effort, I'm glad you got your > point across though. I actually think I did. > > My favorite is Palm Sunday. When the father goes round with the holy > > water and we all get a nice sprinkle. > > Yea I like Palm Sunday, caught a little holy water myself. Actually > this past Sunday was my first time as a Eucharistic minster...I was > pretty nervous, but didn't spill the blood on anyone :-0 Lol, good for you! Haven't had the nerve to do that one myself. SD (a poster here) was actually an altar boy quite a few times. That would seem a bit scary to me as well! Don't know if you like Dane Cook (comedian), but he does this bit about confusing the priest when getting communion. He sticks his tongue out but then changes to palm over palm, back and forth, then says, "Your decision Holy Man!" So funny. > > Easter is standing room only, so I am not sure which mass I will try > > attending this year. Probably the first of the morning, because I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > time I went to that was when I was confirmed, and I wasn't sure the > reading of the saints was ever going to stop. LOL! You are cracking me up! So true! > > I more than likely won't make it today either. But will pull out my > > book and look at the stations. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Hmmm' never heard of that one....kinky. Ain't it though....:-) Now be nice to your wife and don't tell her where you heard it from! Vickie > snip > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Vickie Yeah I'm sure telling her "some nice lady on the internet told me I could spank you today" wouldn't fly too well. > > snip > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Ain't it though....:-) > > Now be nice to your wife and don't tell her where you heard it from! > Yeah I'm sure telling her "some nice lady on the internet told me I > could spank you today" wouldn't fly too well.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - LOL! Vickie |
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