 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / March 2008No response
Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? Do they think things are none of your business? Do they think what was said was too stupid for a reply? Vickie > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? > > Do they think things are none of your business? > > Do they think what was said was too stupid for a reply? Are you sure he's pretending and not just so wrapped up in his own head that he really doesn't hear? Zorra > > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Are you sure he's pretending and not just so wrapped up in his own head that he > really doesn't hear? I thought of that. But it happens so often. Could he be wrapped up that much? Also the subject of the questions kind of have a relevance too, so I am thinking no mostly to your question, but yes for a small percentage of the time. All I know is it hurts and I am left feeling either dumb as a post or not worth the time to speak to. Vickie >>> Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? >>> Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Vickie It begins more and more to sound as if techniques for getting through to preschoolers would work well with your husband. >>>> Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? >>>> Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > It begins more and more to sound as if techniques for getting through > to preschoolers would work well with your husband. I suppose anything is worth a shot, but I still think that treating him like a pre-schooler will do nothing more than make him angrier. Zorra > >>>> Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > >>>> Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I suppose anything is worth a shot, but I still think that treating him like a > pre-schooler will do nothing more than make him angrier. Yeah, I think that is what would happen too. V > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? Stephanie wrote: > It begins more and more to sound as if techniques for getting through > to preschoolers would work well with your husband. Zorra wrote: > I still think that treating him like a pre-schooler will do nothing > more than make him angrier. > Yeah, I think that is what would happen too. How about treating him like a computer? Walk up and say "Interrupt request". Pause until you have his attention. After fifteen seconds, if no response, say "Interrupt request" again. Darren Provine ! kilroy@elvis.rowan.edu ! http://www.rowan.edu/~kilroy "[Your brain] is just a wet Turing machine." -- Nancy L Tinkham > > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Walk up and say "Interrupt request". Pause until you have his attention. > After fifteen seconds, if no response, say "Interrupt request" again. Good one! >>> Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Good one! I know he's knowledgeable about computers, but give me a few minutes with his computer's BIOS, and I'm sure we can resolve some WOW problems, permanently. >> > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Good one! Actually, that isn't far off from my perspective. I am the person mostly likely not to answer my spouse, in our relationship. Sometimes it is about not wanting to give up what I am doing right now, and being a little bit resentful that he seems to. Earllier in our relationship, he would call out and expect me to stop what I was doing and come running to see what he founded important. That was remedied fairly quickly. But he still comes in the door, and if I am doing something on the computer, stands woefully in front of it "Whatcha doin'?" Or "Hey, you got an Amazon box in here. You going to open it.?" Or the one that drives me the battiest ":::as I hang up the phone::: who was that?" It isn't that I mind him knowing ANY of the information. What bothers me is that I can't share on my own time. He knows the box on the table will be opened SOMETIME, and at that point, he'll know what is in it. He knows I don't keep conversations secret from him, and, eventually he'll hear all about it, but it often feels like I am being smothered with requests for info that I'll kist like to disseminated in my own time. When I want to talk to DH, I come in to wherever he is (let's say the couch in the tv room) and just start watching the show. Within 10 min or so either it comes to a lull, or he notices me there, and I say, "When you are done, can we blah, blah, blah." To ME, that is perferred, because it doesn't feel as demanding. Sheila >> I suppose anything is worth a shot, but I still think that treating him like a >> pre-schooler will do nothing more than make him angrier. > >Yeah, I think that is what would happen too. So........is that a bad thing? Why is it so important that Vickie not anger him? Why should she continue to molly-coddle someone who treats her so badly? Is this really what marriage is all about? Trying to figure out exactly how to play the game so that the other person will want to be a partner? I would hate that. In fact, I DID hate that.  SignatureLauri in WA >>> I suppose anything is worth a shot, but I still think that treating him >>> like a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > anger him? Why should she continue to molly-coddle someone who treats > her so badly? What Lauri said. 'Cause walking on eggshells to prevent somebody from getting angry sucks and is no way to live - and is harmful for everybody involved. >>>> I suppose anything is worth a shot, but I still think that >>>> treating him like a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > getting angry sucks and is no way to live - and is harmful for > everybody involved. I was going to answer you in the longer post you gave about the difference between angering someone and them getting angry, but perhaps you've read my response to Lauri now. I agree that walking on eggshells is no way to live. I agree that she needs to stand up for herself more. And I agree that if she has something she really wants or needs to do, she should do it and not worry if he's unreasonably angry. But in *this* particular case, I don't see the value in doing something so likely to anger him (result in him getting angry?) and so unlikely to produce any positive change. Zorra >>> I suppose anything is worth a shot, but I still think that treating >>> him like a pre-schooler will do nothing more than make him angrier. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > anger him? Why should she continue to molly-coddle someone who treats > her so badly? No, that's not the point. Look if it was about him getting angry because Vickie was doing something for her benefit, it would be different. And I'd be all for saying, "Go for it and forget what he says." But this is a different situation -- it was suggested that treating him like a preschooler might effect a change in his behavior. And I don't believe it will have the desired effect. Do you understand? It's not about changing her behavior in order to molly-coddle him...it's about not doing something that she has no desire to do anyway, because it won't help the situation. Zorra > Is this really what marriage is all about? Trying to figure out > exactly how to play the game so that the other person will want to be > a partner? I would hate that. In fact, I DID hate that. >>>> I suppose anything is worth a shot, but I still think that treating >>>> him like a pre-schooler will do nothing more than make him angrier. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > molly-coddle him...it's about not doing something that she has no desire > to do anyway, because it won't help the situation. That's the part that I'm struggling with - the idea that bringing things to a head won't help the situation. I guess that depends on what you mean by "help the situation". If you mean "maintain the status quo", then probably failure to molly-coddle won't do that. If it means "not maintaining the status quo, because the status quo isn't working", then bringing things to a head might help, one way or the other. Thing is, you've got to be willing to accept the consequences whichever way it turns out - so most people don't go there until they are seriously burned out on what-ever-the-problem-is. Which is often too late. Which is why some people suggested that waiting too long to bring things out into the open is also dangerous. >>>>> I suppose anything is worth a shot, but I still think that >>>>> treating him like a pre-schooler will do nothing more than make [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > people suggested that waiting too long to bring things out into the > open is also dangerous. Well, now this is different. You may well believe that purposely making him angry in this way will help (but then it would be angering him, right?). I don't agree, but it's possible, and she can give it a try if she wants. Zorra >Well, now this is different. You may well believe that purposely making him >angry in this way will help (but then it would be angering him, right?). I >don't agree, but it's possible, and she can give it a try if she wants. I guess I don't see it as "purposely making him angry". It seems to me that you are cautioning her to not do anything to upset him, since it won't change his behavior anyway. My take is that people should go ahead and risk the anger, because sometimes that's what happens when people stand up for themselves--someone else initially gets angry, because the status quo has been upset. It actually sounds to me like Vickie's husband keeps her "in line" (quiet and docile) by keeping her off balance. By always keeping her guessing, and by keeping her hopping and jumping through hoops, trying to understand what it is he wants so she can be that. The problem is that either he doesn't know what he wants, or he somehow finds it rewarding to hide it from her, in order to keep her hopping. That is very, very troubling to me. Even more troubling is the possibility that he's being this way because he just doesn't give a sh.t anymore. And Zorra, if I may say.....I think that your feelings about it being a bad thing to make him angry are understandable, because it seems to me that that is how Mr. Zorra keeps you hopping--by his anger. So it's understandable that anything that might potentially make him angry would seem like a bad thing to you. I hope that doesn't sound like I'm trying to be insulting to you; I don't really have the knack of phrasing things in a tactful way but I'm just wondering if that's why you see the possiblity of Vickie making her husband mad as such a bad thing. SignatureLauri in WA >> Well, now this is different. You may well believe that purposely >> making him angry in this way will help (but then it would be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > me that you are cautioning her to not do anything to upset him, since > it won't change his behavior anyway. No, I don't have a problem with her making him angry. In fact you can ask her -- I was one of the first advising her that trying to keep him happy would actually end up making things worse in the long run, even if it seemed to help in the short run. And I told her to be prepared, because if she started standing up for herself, things would seem much worse temporarily because he would get angry about it, but that it was still her best bet to making things better in the long run. I don't know how to put it more clearly. It's not angering him that I think is a bad idea, it's angering him *to no purpose*. And I believe that "treating him like a preschooler," which is what had been suggested, is counter-productive. > My take is that people should go > ahead and risk the anger, because sometimes that's what happens when [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > why you see the possiblity of Vickie making her husband mad as such a > bad thing. Well, I can see why you would say this. It's true that having lived in a house full of anger for so long, I do try to avoid conflict when I can. It's certainly easier to advise someone else to risk anger than to do it yourself, day after day, year after year, when you already feel like you are living in a war zone. Zorra >>> Well, now this is different. You may well believe that purposely >>> making him angry in this way will help (but then it would be [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > believe that "treating him like a preschooler," which is what had > been suggested, is counter-productive. I think you mistook my meaning when I said treating him like a preschooler as a perjorative. I meant it more as treat him as a person who needs to be taught a little about becoming civilized. Would it be to no purpose to get face to face with him when speaking thus indicating that simply ignoring is not an option? >> My take is that people should go >> ahead and risk the anger, because sometimes that's what happens when [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Zorra >>>> Well, now this is different. You may well believe that purposely >>>> making him angry in this way will help (but then it would be [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Would it be to no purpose to get face to face with him when speaking > thus indicating that simply ignoring is not an option? Perhaps then you should not have called it treating him like a pre-schooler, because if you'd simply said "making sure you have his attention before you speak to him" then I wouldn't have objected. Adults in general react very badly to being treated like children. As for getting face to face with him, that might be difficult as he's usually face to face with the computer. Zorra >>>>> Well, now this is different. You may well believe that purposely >>>>> making him angry in this way will help (but then it would be [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > pre-schooler, because if you'd simply said "making sure you have his > attention before you speak to him" then I wouldn't have objected. Because that is how I treat my preschooler. Most of the grown ups I know don't require that kind of molly coddling. > Adults in general react very badly to being treated like children. Let him react badly. If he has to react badly, maybe he will see a need to get his head out of his a.s and stop *being* a child. > As for getting face to face with him, that might be difficult as he's > usually face to face with the computer. > > Zorra > >>>>> Well, now this is different. You may well believe that purposely > >>>>> making him angry in this way will help (but then it would be [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Unfortunately, I don't think Vickie's husband would come to that recognition. He sounds like the type person that would just get pissed off. >>>>>> Well, now this is different. You may well believe that purposely >>>>>> making him angry in this way will help (but then it would be [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Let him react badly. If he has to react badly, maybe he will see a > need to get his head out of his a.s and stop *being* a child. And it is my opinion, based on what I know of Vickie's husband, that this will not happen. Of course she knows him better than I do, so perhaps she thinks it's worth a shot. Zorra >> As for getting face to face with him, that might be difficult as he's >> usually face to face with the computer. >> >> Zorra >>>>>>> Well, now this is different. You may well believe that purposely >>>>>>> making him angry in this way will help (but then it would be [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >>> >>> Zorra My guess is that it would be a matter of how long the "behavior readjustment" was applied. If she did it once, it would be useless. > >>>>>> Well, now this is different. You may well believe that purposely > >>>>>> making him angry in this way will help (but then it would be [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > not happen. Of course she knows him better than I do, so perhaps she thinks > it's worth a shot. No, I really don't think I could do this. Besides the reply would more likely be, "Whatever Vickie". V >>>>>> Well, now this is different. You may well believe that purposely >>>>>> making him angry in this way will help (but then it would be [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >Let him react badly. If he has to react badly, maybe he will see a need to >get his head out of his a.s and stop *being* a child. The trouble is, this is what would happen in a perfect world. And it's what *should* happen. But everybody's different. If I treated my husband like a child... or in fact did anything that smacked of direct retaliatory behavior... he would go through the ceiling first and ask question later. And it would take literally days for it to come close to blowing over. For a lot of reasons, that would be the sort of thing that would be JUST the wrong thing to do. But on the other hand, he'd be perfectly wonderful about just talking about whatever the problem was. The trouble with Mr. Vickie is that he's basically checked out, and, as I said before, he's acting like a sullen teenager. So treating him like the overgrown child that he is will probably only result in a LOT of anger. And reasoning with him doesn't work, because he's checked out... and in fact, in a way, he's treating Vickie like a parent... "I don't want to listen to you, you're stupid, and you can't make me listen." So there is no effective way of engaging. I suspect that what's going to HAVE to happen here eventually is a lot of conflict. A lot of very unpleasant conflict, which may or may not end up in an intact marriage. If I were Vickie, I'd want to have all my ducks lined up before that happened... and by that, specifically, I mean that I'd want to have a therapist, I'd want to have a clear idea of what I wanted out of the marriage and what I was and was not willing to tolerate, and I'd want to feel very clear about what I wanted. Sometimes it takes years and years to get to that point... for me, it took the better part of a decade, and by that time, I was just done. But my first marriage wasn't a hostile environment in this sense; it was more inertia and the avoidance of conflict and things like that. In an actively hostile environment, I think I would have gotten there a lot faster. > >>>>>> Well, now this is different. You may well believe that purposely > >>>>>> making him angry in this way will help (but then it would be [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > don't want to listen to you, you're stupid, and you can't make me > listen." So there is no effective way of engaging. This is probably as good a place as any for me to say something I've wanted to say about this thread, related to the notion of "treating people like children," and doesn't have much to do with your post. I think your simile is apt in that I agree Mr Vickie is acting like a sullen teenager. My experience with sullen teenagers is that if you retaliate in kind with the goal of teaching them a message, it is more likely to distance them than to teach them a message. So I'd suggest that treating Mr Vickie like the sullen teenager he is behaving as may indeed be appropriate, provided one has a tactic that would actually _work_ with a sullen teenager. The problem with "treating someone like a child" is that often when people are saying that they are envisioning some manner of treatment that wouldn't actually be all that effective on children anyhow. I don't think the distinction between how one treats children and adults should normally be very big. One's behavior toward others is (and should be) influenced by how they treat you, how you want to model being treated, and how you choose to reinforce good treatment and discourage bad treatment. As far as one's own children go, this is complicated by the whole unconditional love thing one tends to feel for one's child, and by the power one has over one's children. > I suspect that what's going to HAVE to happen here eventually is a lot > of conflict. A lot of very unpleasant conflict, which may or may not [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > In an actively hostile environment, I think I would have gotten there > a lot faster. Perhaps you would have gotten to the point where it was intolerable before you got to the point where you no longer cared about saving your marriage? e >> Sometimes it takes years and years to get to that point... for me, it >> took the better part of a decade, and by that time, I was just done. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >before you got to the point where you no longer cared about saving >your marriage? Absolutely. I mean, in some ways, that would have been (weirdly enough) a good thing, one way or another. If there had been a really hostile environment... or a "real" problem, like alcoholism or affairs... then I would have done something about it a lot earlier, and then maybe there would have been some chance of saving it. As it was, it was like trying to move air... you couldn't get a grasp on the problems, or maybe they weren't problems, or maybe it was just me... and so it drifted on and on, until I reached a combination of desperation and indifference, and then it was just too late. My mother used to have a quote tacked up... " The rust of caution destroys more men than the attrition of action." I have no idea who said that, but I think that there's a huge amount of truth to it. > >> Sometimes it takes years and years to get to that point... for me, it > >> took the better part of a decade, and by that time, I was just done. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > and so it drifted on and on, until I reached a combination of > desperation and indifference, and then it was just too late. That's interesting. I never thought about this before. >This is probably as good a place as any for me to say something I've >wanted to say about this thread, related to the notion of "treating [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >unconditional love thing one tends to feel for one's child, and by the >power one has over one's children. The main cure for being a sullen teenager is age and experience, but the fact that you have (a tiny bit of) power over a child in your house. It's pretty hard to apply that effectively to an adult. I have to say, though, that doing unto others as they actually do unto you is a fairly practical approach to a lot of these things. The thing that, I have to say, just really bugs me from some kind of fairness point of view is that it seems to me that Mr. Vickie is getting all the things that he wants and being allowed to skip out of all the things that he doesn't want. A sullen teenager in my house would not be getting the things that wants if he was not also willing to do some of the things that he didn't want to do. And interact in a reasonably pleasant fashion. Not my husband or child, not my house, not my problem... but it irks me. > >This is probably as good a place as any for me to say something I've > >wanted to say about this thread, related to the notion of "treating [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > getting all the things that he wants and being allowed to skip out of > all the things that he doesn't want. Well, sort of. I mean he's obviously unhappy too. (Like a sullen teenager.) So even though he's getting away with bad behavior, it isn't _really_ getting him what he wants (whatever that is). At the same time, there is this feature of being an adult (some of which holds for teenagers too) which is that depending on what it is you want, it is quite possible to get it and to continue to treat your family badly. Ultimately there is a price as you destroy (or fail to build) relationships with your family. Who can say if that is a price that Mr Vickie minds paying? >> >This is probably as good a place as any for me to say something I've >> >wanted to say about this thread, related to the notion of "treating [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > build) relationships with your family. Who can say if that is a price > that Mr Vickie minds paying? Here is a total tangent that I have been thinking about. It seems to me that some people go through their lives, day to day, without ever *thinking.* I am picturing the Mr Vickie that Vickie has portrayed over time. He is a good man, she says. But he is also a screaming jerk. My guess is that, over time, he got in the habit of blowing off steam at home. And maybe blowing off steam at first made him feel better. But then maybe Vickie took it. And took it, until Mr Vickie no longer feels good about it. But does not stop and THINK about the things that could be causing his woes, just shuffles on with Wow (escape) and bellowing. I am *completely* projecting a feeling about their scene which could be utter horse pucky. But I will bent he is so wrapped up in some form of denial of fears of his own self worth. That is the only thing I can think of whicuh would cause you to deny facing your own role in a situation like this. >> >>>>>> Well, now this is different. You may well believe that purposely >> >>>>>> making him angry in this way will help (but then it would be [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > people are saying that they are envisioning some manner of treatment > that wouldn't actually be all that effective on children anyhow. I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what peopel have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! Makes me wonder how they treat their children! :) > I don't think the distinction between how one treats children and > adults should normally be very big. One's behavior toward others is > (and should be) influenced by how they treat you, how you want to > model being treated, and how you choose to reinforce good treatment > and discourage bad treatment. I agree. The difference with children is that the often need to be reminded of where *your* limits lie. > As far as one's own children go, this is complicated by the whole > unconditional love thing one tends to feel for one's child, and by the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > your marriage? > e > I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what peopel have > interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! Makes me wonder how they > treat their children! :) I think I am the only one so far who has 'fessed up to how I actually treat my children. :-) Everyone else has been too wise. Treating someone like a child to me means treating them like someone who doesn't have all the experience and tools an adult is supposed to have. I would likely not refuse to run my H's errand as a logical consequence of his snappishly refusing to help me out, because we handle these things in a different way. For example, we give each other slack for a while, without it turning into reinforcing a bad habit. IME, if I gave my teenagers as much slack to treat me inconsiderately, it would spiral into something bad. Whereas I can let DH be snappish and he'll usually realize he was out of line and apologize. If I were married to someone who was as constantly out of line as I perceive Mr. Vickie to be, I don't know exactly how I would react. Not well I suspect! But from my vantage point over here, treating him like a teenager - immediate and uniform natural consequences when behavior passes a point of acceptability - might be appropriate. >> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what peopel have >> interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! Makes me wonder how [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > a teenager - immediate and uniform natural consequences when behavior > passes a point of acceptability - might be appropriate. Nicely put. >> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what peopel >> have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! Makes me >> wonder how they treat their children! :) > > I think I am the only one so far who has 'fessed up to how I actually > treat my children. :-) Everyone else has been too wise. I'll confess here that there can be some brief satisfaction gained from adopting a fish-wife stance and letting my outrage and indignation be voiced fairly loudly where older teenagers are concerned, however little it actually helps the irritating situation! Stephanie, on the other hand, always speak very respectfully about her children so I assumed she meant it in the way you've put it below. > Treating someone like a child to me means treating them like someone > who doesn't have all the experience and tools an adult is supposed to [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > him like a teenager - immediate and uniform natural consequences when > behavior passes a point of acceptability - might be appropriate. I think so. However, I think any kind of boundary-setting Vickie tries to impose on her husband at this point in their relationship is bound to produce either outright anger or him blowing her off in a rude manner. That doesn't mean I think she shouldn't set them anyway. I feel very strongly that letting our intimates treat us badly is almost as bad for them as it is for us. Hey, Vickie'd be doing her husband an actual service by refusing to let him treat her as an adversary! >>> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what peopel >>> have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! Makes me [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > bound to produce either outright anger or him blowing her off in a > rude manner. Certainly at first. But over time, as it begins to sink in that the status quo is changing whether he likes it or not? > That doesn't mean I think she shouldn't set them anyway. > I feel very strongly that letting our intimates treat us badly is > almost as bad for them as it is for us. Hey, Vickie'd be doing her > husband an actual service by refusing to let him treat her as an > adversary! >>>> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what peopel >>>> have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! Makes me [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Certainly at first. But over time, as it begins to sink in that the > status quo is changing whether he likes it or not? Then he feels that Vickie has abandoned him, and he grows ever more bitter and resentful, and the two of them move farther and farther apart, living their separate lives, neither doing for each other, and eventually losing whatever loving feelings they have. Zorra >>>>> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what peopel >>>>> have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! Makes me [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >separate lives, neither doing for each other, and eventually losing whatever >loving feelings they have. Well, you are a cheerful bunny this morning! ;-) I agree with your overall point about the likelihood that any boundary-setting that Vickie does at this point is likely to produce negative results. But on the other hand, what you describe above is pretty much what I think is happening now, anyway. (Except maybe the Vickie abandoning him part, because frankly it seems unlikely to me that he's thinking of this sort of thing in that kind of emotionally nuanced way, but who knows?) >>>>>> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what >>>>>> peopel have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > Well, you are a cheerful bunny this morning! ;-) Well, I've been feeling very bitter lately. I'm wondering if the negativity is seeping back. So many times lately.... Like he went out of town on business for a week. I had classes, the Jonas Brother's concert with my daughter, scrambling, trying to find sitters, I mean, we were fine, but it wasn't the easiest week. He walked in the door, didn't even say Hello, and made a crack about the table being too cluttered. Similarly, he called me in the middle of class to tell me he couldn't handle our daughter, wouldn't pick her up anymore....so when I got home I went upstairs to see him. Just sat next to him on the bed in case he wanted to talk. When he just ignored me (and I'd probably said *something* like "are you ok?" or "Do you want to talk about it) I said, "Okay...so if you have nothing you want to tell me, I'm going to go, ok?" And he made a noise like he might want to say somthing, so I stayed and waited, and when he finally spoke? He told me the potty was plugged when he got home, and he was sick and tired of having to deal with that. And again last night...this time I was in the middle of putting away the clean dishes so I could refill, and he made a crack about the counter being messy. I mean, I was cleaning it up right then!!!! Grrr... > I agree with your overall point about the likelihood that any > boundary-setting that Vickie does at this point is likely to produce [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that he's thinking of this sort of thing in that kind of emotionally > nuanced way, but who knows?) No, I think boundary setting is good, even if the results are negative at first. But when they go so far as to say, "Well, I'm not going to do anything nice for you because you don't do anything nice for me," then that's when I think you are in real danger of losing all feelings for someone. Zorra >>>>>>> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what >>>>>>> peopel have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > clean dishes so I could refill, and he made a crack about the counter > being messy. I mean, I was cleaning it up right then!!!! Grrr... That sucks! I am sorry to hear that. >> I agree with your overall point about the likelihood that any >> boundary-setting that Vickie does at this point is likely to produce [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Zorra One thing... when you are dealing with limit setting, the key (im nevergonna be h o) is second, third, twentyfifth chances. Never ... that is love sucking for sure. >>>>>>> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what >>>>>>> peopel have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] >dishes so I could refill, and he made a crack about the counter being messy. I >mean, I was cleaning it up right then!!!! Grrr... I'm so sorry to hear this. I know that individually they're little things, but it's the atmosphere, the accumulation of things that build up. I hope it's just a bad week. But the cracks about the table, the counter, that kind of thing... they would bug the hell out of me. I've been, unfortunately, I guess, in a real take-no-prisoners mood lately, and I'd be inclined to tell him that if he didn't like the mess, he could damn well clean it up himself. Which I realize would be totally not constructive! >> I agree with your overall point about the likelihood that any >> boundary-setting that Vickie does at this point is likely to produce [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >you because you don't do anything nice for me," then that's when I think you are >in real danger of losing all feelings for someone. You said somewhere else, I think, something that I interpreted as, after a while, it all becomes no one doing anything for anyone else, and who started it and why it started gets lost in all the negativity. And I think that this is exactly right; I think that you have to work at good feelings especially when there is an atmosphere of negativity, and when you start retaliating, everything gets lost in the actions rather than in root causes, and it's hard to get anywhere else. But still. I am not inclined to go out of my way for someone who is critical and nasty to me. I struggle with the positive, too... not quite the same reasons, but because DH has any number of things that make him bitter, irritable, and depressed, and I feel like someone has to be the positive person, or we just sink into a sea of misery. But it's hard. > >>>>>>> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what > >>>>>>> peopel have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! [quoted text clipped - 108 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I second that, on the someone has to be positive. I find that on most days of my marriage, I'm having to point out all of the good things in life, while my wife finds something bad about most everything. It does get hard day in and day out. She got angry at the weather man the other night because it is warming up this week and she feels winter wasn't cold enough. It was like it was his fault. Anyway, just wanted to say, "I feel your pain" without giving a laundry list of examples, because I could. >X-No-Archive:yes > [quoted text clipped - 119 lines] >just wanted to say, "I feel your pain" without giving a laundry list >of examples, because I could. For some reason, getting mad at the weatherman for the weather is just funny. :-) Or, mostly, I have to see things this way. We have a golden retriever. Retrieving things is his life, but they're not usually the things that you'd actually WANT him to retrieve. In particular, he likes to retrieve DH's socks. DH gets SO irritated and angry at the dog... like he is doing this on purpose (which I suppose that he is, but it's kind of an inner compulsion to carry something around in your mouth, I guess). Anyway, if it were me (and the dog also retrieves my underwear, I might add), I would either pick up my stuff or choose to see it as funny. Which it kind of is. Life's too short to get pissed off about every single thing, but it's sometimes an awful lot of work being the cheerful serene person. [snip] >For some reason, getting mad at the weatherman for the weather is just >funny. :-) Or, mostly, I have to see things this way. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Life's too short to get pissed off about every single thing, but it's >sometimes an awful lot of work being the cheerful serene person. It certainly helps if your companion can match your cheer and serenity ;-) Having spent nearly 20 years with someone who did not, one of the things I value most about my SO is how well we work together during difficult situations. Recently, we were stuck in East Podunk, Ohio, when my car developed a serious problem. It's a long story and I'll spare the details, but it was one of those things that can bring out a lot of frustration and anger. We managed to roll with the considerable punches and even derive some welcome humor from certain aspects of the situation. The highlight of which was taking a stretch limo to the car rental agency since the town we were stuck in had no taxis ;-) I've gotten to the point in my life, when I'm feeling annoyance or irritation, where I sort of stop and ask myself if it's really important enough to spend time on. Mostly, it isn't! Although that doesn't always stop me from feeling it anyway. Barb Barb Barb >[snip] > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >important enough to spend time on. Mostly, it isn't! Although that >doesn't always stop me from feeling it anyway. The funny/weird thing to me is that DH would be GREAT with the car problem story. He's (mostly) fantastic in a crisis, and things that I think are a huge big deal, he laughs at. But it's the little things, the minor irritations of just existing... these are the things that get to him. But it's the only thing I've really learned over time, I think, that the small stuff mostly doesn't make any difference at all, and you really can't have anything like a peaceful life if you get wound up about every single thing. >>[snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >and you really can't have anything like a peaceful life if you get >wound up about every single thing. You're right -- although we can't make that choice for other people (like your husband). The only thing we can do is let them deal with things as they will without feeling like we have to intervene or do something about it. I can say that but I'm not so good at doing it. Not without a lot of self-talk, anyway. Barb > Life's too short to get pissed off about every single thing, but it's > sometimes an awful lot of work being the cheerful serene person.- This is true. We had one of those nights last night. Dinner time is the bewitching hour, so there's always a certain amount of stress getting things on the table, and DH and I don't do very well when we're hungry. Our fuses get short and we are apt to get irritable and snappish. Usually I am on top of things enough to be cheerful and serene by the time he gets home from his bike commute, starving and grumpy... so at least we're not both snappish at the same time. We take turns. ;-) Well, last night, I did NOT have things under control and I was having a meltdown when he walked in the door. Without going into details, DH got defensive and I ended up yelling at him, "I am NOT blaming YOU ... sheesh, can't I be allowed to be GRUMPY and IRRITATED without you assuming it's targeted at YOU or it's somehow YOUR fault. It's not always about YOU. I'm just having a bad day and I'm STARVING!!!!" I had quite a rant... I went on and on. To the point it became rather comical. Next thing I know, DH whips out a small, prettily wrapped present and leaves it on the kitchen counter. It's for me. And he just smiles this big grin. I pulled myself together, suggested we sit down and eat so I could get my blood sugar back up first. We had a nice, pleasant dinner. I opened the present afterwards. It was a delicate sapphire and diamond bracelet. For no reason, just because... "because I noticed you were surfing for something similar the other day." jen >> Life's too short to get pissed off about every single thing, but it's >> sometimes an awful lot of work being the cheerful serene person.- [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > jen I love stuff like that. I could have had that exact same rant myself. But I don't get sapphire and diamond jewelry. Hmmmm.... :) > I love stuff like that. I could have had that exact same rant myself. But I > don't get sapphire and diamond jewelry. Hmmmm.... :)- I think it was just a coincidence! Obviously, he didn't know he'd come home with a present to find me ranting away and in a miserable mood. Actually, awhile back, for some occasion or other, he'd bought me a pair of earrings but they didn't work at all... I'm so petite, even my jewelry needs to be petite! These were dangly and they hung so long they brushed my shoulders and looked silly. So come to think of it, this bracelet is probably what he turned them in for!! It has to be shortened though. My wrists are too tiny too. :-( Does anyone know if a jeweler could make stud earrings out of some of the links they take out? That would be cool! jen >> I love stuff like that. I could have had that exact same rant myself. But I >> don't get sapphire and diamond jewelry. Hmmmm.... :)- [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Does anyone know if a jeweler could make stud earrings out of some of >the links they take out? That would be cool! Depends on the shape of the stones and the shape of the links, but a competent jeweler could almost certainly do that. > I love stuff like that. I could have had that exact same rant myself. But I > don't get sapphire and diamond jewelry. Hmmmm.... :) I tell you what... ...I will send the little hint to your husband, and you will send the little hint to my husband... "You don't know me, but your wife said something on the NG the other day that made me think she's got her eye on . . . ." It will be ever so sneaky and subtle that way! >> I love stuff like that. I could have had that exact same rant myself. But >> I don't get sapphire and diamond jewelry. Hmmmm.... :) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It will be ever so sneaky and subtle that way! In my case, all we can afford is the earrings at the second hand store. :) Just the same, I am game. >>> I love stuff like that. I could have had that exact same rant >>> myself. But I don't get sapphire and diamond jewelry. Hmmmm.... :) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > In my case, all we can afford is the earrings at the second hand > store. :) Just the same, I am game. Estate/second hand jewellery is often much prettier and interesting than the new stuff, anyway, and there's something about the bargain aspect that is also appealing! My husband gave me a lovely old rose gold locket for my 40th birthday which I have to say was one of his more successful forays into jewellery buying. I will sound very ungracious now but I really prefer him to restrict himself to choosing silver earrings for me, that's where he actually get it right. ;) > >>> I love stuff like that. I could have had that exact same rant > >>> myself. But I don't get sapphire and diamond jewelry. Hmmmm.... :) [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > new stuff, anyway, and there's something about the bargain aspect that is > also appealing! I agree wholeheartedly! One thing to watch out for though, a curse might have been placed on second hand jewelery. That would be very bad. Or some kind of weird lingering bad luck. Yikes! Vickie >> Estate/second hand jewellery is often much prettier and interesting >> than the new stuff, anyway, and there's something about the bargain [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > second hand jewelery. That would be very bad. Or some kind of weird > lingering bad luck. Yikes! Oh, but I only believe in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus, Vickie, and I don't even give credence to Karma! So a curse would just make the piece *more* interesting and appealing. ;)) > >> Estate/second hand jewellery is often much prettier and interesting > >> than the new stuff, anyway, and there's something about the bargain [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > don't even give credence to Karma! So a curse would just make the piece > *more* interesting and appealing. ;)) Even if it means an evil, sharp tooth, Pennywise-type clown will appear whenever you wear the piece!!? lol Vickie >>>> Estate/second hand jewellery is often much prettier and interesting >>>> than the new stuff, anyway, and there's something about the bargain [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Even if it means an evil, sharp tooth, Pennywise-type clown will > appear whenever you wear the piece!!? LOL Shhhhh.... you'll give nightmares to the people who are afraid of clowns! >> >>> I love stuff like that. I could have had that exact same rant >> >>> myself. But I don't get sapphire and diamond jewelry. Hmmmm.... :) [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >second hand jewelery. That would be very bad. Or some kind of weird >lingering bad luck. Yikes! I love vintage stuff! When my husband and I went to the jewelers to pick out our wedding bands, he told me pick out anything i wanted. Anything! I looked at all the diamonds and stuff, nothing really struck me. We wandered into a pawn shop next door to look at other things, and there was "my" ring. It's really unique, obviously a custom thing, a wavy band set in with tiny diamonds instead of the traditional engagement/wedding set. I can't help but sometimes wonder what it's "story" is but that doesn't matter, it called out my name. Now it holds OUR story. > In article <7cbd7584-4e1c-409b-92ee-942153d02...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Vickie <lilliputianbizz...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > I love vintage stuff! Me too. > When my husband and I went to the jewelers to pick out our wedding bands, he > told me pick out anything i wanted. Anything! I looked at all the diamonds [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > what it's "story" is but that doesn't matter, it called out my name. Now it > holds OUR story. It sure does. Although my ring was new when bought, it has to be one of the smallest simplest rings ever. We were broker than broke when we bought it. And I wouldn't trade it for the world. Vickie >> In article >> <7cbd7584-4e1c-409b-92ee-942153d02...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Me too. Me three. Vintage eras, most especially. Hard to find, though. :-( These are the things I'm missing today. I am already missing being able to just pick something up for her, for no reason, other than I was thinking about her. She was always doing this as well. I am still finding her little notes to me around the house. Some she gave me, some she didn't get around to giving me, but always "I love you" I am missing being able to hold her (I would always just going over to her and giving her a hug and a kiss), just because she was there and I needed to express myself for the umpteenth time that day. We were never jealous of each other, or our former relationships, or even friendships we'd have with members of the opposite sex. We both had plenty of prospective suitors, but neither of us were interested. I miss the sheer spontaneity of our relationship, it was never the wrong time to go do something fun. Jealously. Who needs it? I was busy packing her belonging for her kids today and came across some pictures of her from a former relationship. She had been beaten (one time out of many). I literally cried. It made me understand a bit more of why she found me to be special. I never beat her, cursed her, called her any demeaning names. WE never fought, EVER !! She always had such a sunny personality, and as bad as I am, I must have been a diamond in the rough to her, compared to the crap holes that beat her. No wonder her family liked me so much. I'm just glad I was able to make her happy for what time we had. If you have someone treating you like crap, get up, and move on. Life is too precious and too short. Just my $0.02 worth. >> I love stuff like that. I could have had that exact same rant myself. But >> I don't get sapphire and diamond jewelry. Hmmmm.... :) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It will be ever so sneaky and subtle that way! > These are the things I'm missing today. I am already missing being able > to just pick something up for her, for no reason, other than I was thinking [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > wonder her family liked me so much. I'm just glad I was able to make her > happy for what time we had. I am sure she was amazingly happy about the time you shared too. Vickie On Mar 26, 10:15 pm, "Tumbleweed" <the.tumblew...@yahoo.com> wrote: > These are the things I'm missing today. I am already missing being able > to just pick something up for her, for no reason, other than I was [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > wonder her family liked me so much. I'm just glad I was able to make her > happy for what time we had. I am sure she was amazingly happy about the time you shared too. Vickie She was as happy as she was amazing. Thanks >> I love stuff like that. I could have had that exact same rant myself. But >> I don't get sapphire and diamond jewelry. Hmmmm.... :) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It will be ever so sneaky and subtle that way! Oooooh. This girl is *good* >>> I love stuff like that. I could have had that exact same rant myself. >>> But I don't get sapphire and diamond jewelry. Hmmmm.... :) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Oooooh. > This girl is *good* Actually, having thought about it for a day, what I really need is someone to drop an anonymous e-mail to my husband saying "You don't know me, but your wife said something on the NG the other day that made me think she'd really like you to finish wiring the outlets in the kitchen." So I don't get accused of, you know, making him feel like an idgit or--what was the word? rebelliant? eviscerated?--by just telling him: wire the damn outlets already. >>>> I love stuff like that. I could have had that exact same rant myself. >>>> But I don't get sapphire and diamond jewelry. Hmmmm.... :) [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >wire the damn outlets already. Would you like to post his email address? ;-) >>>> I love stuff like that. I could have had that exact same rant myself. >>>> But I don't get sapphire and diamond jewelry. Hmmmm.... :) [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > wire the damn outlets already. I'll do it. >>>> I love stuff like that. I could have had that exact same rant myself. >>>> But I don't get sapphire and diamond jewelry. Hmmmm.... :) [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > wire the damn outlets already. How close are they to the sink? Are they GFIed? >>>>> I love stuff like that. I could have had that exact same rant >>>>> myself. But I don't get sapphire and diamond jewelry. Hmmmm.... :) [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > How close are they to the sink? > Are they GFIed? They are not near the sink, but they are on an exterior (cinderblock) wall that doesn't have enough clearance to install even shallow junction boxes, so we are using wiremold surface mount raceway and boxes. We have the parts, he's pulled the cable and everything weeks ago, just needs to mount the raceway and boxes. It's just two outlets and a stupid hour's worth of work, and I'm pissed that he won't just... get 'er done. >>>>>> I love stuff like that. I could have had that exact same rant myself. >>>>>> But I don't get sapphire and diamond jewelry. Hmmmm.... :) [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > the raceway and boxes. It's just two outlets and a stupid hour's worth of > work, and I'm pissed that he won't just... get 'er done. Gotcha. I'll pass the message on if you'd still like. :^) > Next thing I know, DH whips out a small, prettily wrapped present and > leaves it on the kitchen counter. It's for me. And he just smiles this > big grin. Wow, that's almost worth putting up with the junkyard in basement over! > I pulled myself together, suggested we sit down and eat so I could get > my blood sugar back up first. We had a nice, pleasant dinner. I opened > the present afterwards. It was a delicate sapphire and diamond > bracelet. For no reason, just because... "because I noticed you were > surfing for something similar the other day." All together now..."awwwww...." [...] > I pulled myself together, suggested we sit down and eat so I could get > my blood sugar back up first. We had a nice, pleasant dinner. I opened > the present afterwards. It was a delicate sapphire and diamond > bracelet. For no reason, just because... "because I noticed you were > surfing for something similar the other day." That is so sweet! Your husband is very observant, good on him. :) (And so expensive. lol) I had two reactions to your anecdote. The above was the first but the second was "mine better not ever do that!" Which is funny because although a sapphire and damond bracelet wouldn't be something I'd get a great deal of pleasure or use out of myself, despite sapphires being my favourite gems, I'd be more than happy if my husband came home with tickets for a lovely holiday in the sun. Which would also be expensive plus impossible to swing time-wise for us just now, unfortunately. > For no reason, just because... "because I noticed you were >surfing for something similar the other day." Oooooh. This guy is *good*. On Mar 26, 2:17 pm, Nina <ninaNOS...@economika.net> wrote: > Life's too short to get pissed off about every single thing, but it's > sometimes an awful lot of work being the cheerful serene person.- This is true. We had one of those nights last night. Dinner time is the bewitching hour, so there's always a certain amount of stress getting things on the table, and DH and I don't do very well when we're hungry. Our fuses get short and we are apt to get irritable and snappish. Usually I am on top of things enough to be cheerful and serene by the time he gets home from his bike commute, starving and grumpy... so at least we're not both snappish at the same time. We take turns. ;-) Well, last night, I did NOT have things under control and I was having a meltdown when he walked in the door. Without going into details, DH got defensive and I ended up yelling at him, "I am NOT blaming YOU ... sheesh, can't I be allowed to be GRUMPY and IRRITATED without you assuming it's targeted at YOU or it's somehow YOUR fault. It's not always about YOU. I'm just having a bad day and I'm STARVING!!!!" I had quite a rant... I went on and on. To the point it became rather comical. Next thing I know, DH whips out a small, prettily wrapped present and leaves it on the kitchen counter. It's for me. And he just smiles this big grin. I pulled myself together, suggested we sit down and eat so I could get my blood sugar back up first. We had a nice, pleasant dinner. I opened the present afterwards. It was a delicate sapphire and diamond bracelet. For no reason, just because... "because I noticed you were surfing for something similar the other day." jen Wow... I can't imagine what'd pop up on the kitchen counter if my girl did that after seeing what ~I~ surf! OMG! Seriously, though, I hate your husband. He just earned a spot right next to Tom Brady. ;) - Saul (Don't know why my freaking quotes aren't working, sorry, having technical difficulties, PBKAC, problem between keyboard and chair) > Seriously, though, I hate your husband. He just earned a spot right next to > Tom Brady. That reminds me. A few months back (in the Fall), we were at this popular restaurant - and at the table next to us was this group of men. The tables were close enough together that it encouraged friendliness among the patrons. We were joking back and forth with this group of men sitting next to us. At one point, one of them says (pointing to his friend) "Don't you know who he is? Tom Brady." And I'm like, "Well, hello then (whoever Tom Brady is - I don't know)." I still couldn't tell you if it was really him, or someone just pretending it was him. DH couldn't tell you either. He's some sports guy, right? jen On Mar 27, 10:26 pm, "Saulgoode" <saulgoode35...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Seriously, though, I hate your husband. He just earned a spot right next > to > Tom Brady. That reminds me. A few months back (in the Fall), we were at this popular restaurant - and at the table next to us was this group of men. The tables were close enough together that it encouraged friendliness among the patrons. We were joking back and forth with this group of men sitting next to us. At one point, one of them says (pointing to his friend) "Don't you know who he is? Tom Brady." And I'm like, "Well, hello then (whoever Tom Brady is - I don't know)." I still couldn't tell you if it was really him, or someone just pretending it was him. DH couldn't tell you either. He's some sports guy, right? jen http://tinyurl.com/2wwq2y > (Don't know why my freaking quotes aren't working, sorry, having > technical difficulties, PBKAC, problem between keyboard and chair) No, you're not the problem. You're experiencing a known incompatibility issue between Outlook Express and posts injected by Google Groups. If you download and install OE-QuoteFix your quoting problems will magically disappear. I promise! >>>>>>>> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what >>>>>>>> peopel have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > mess, he could damn well clean it up himself. Which I realize would > be totally not constructive! No, it's been more than a week. Not back to his former super-critical self yet, but it just feels like it's headed back in that direction. Zorra > No, it's been more than a week. Not back to his former super-critical self yet, > but it just feels like it's headed back in that direction. Hang in there Zorra! Your husband has ups and downs, and IMO all that nonsense is well in character for him. Is he usually nice when he comes back from a trip? I'd be surprised if so, my guess would have been that all he'd want to do is to retreat from humanity as fast as possible, snarling at anyone and anything that gets between him and his solitary den. Which is rough, but the chances are that once he's recovered from the disruption he'll sweeten up again, and he'll be able to handle untidy worktops and blocked potties again. And when I say "hang in there" I do not mean "don't be pissed off at him". I don't even mean "don't pack your bags" :-) I just mean, don't take his attitude as a reflection on you. IMO it has more to do with how he feels about being outside his cave than how he feels about you or your marriage. 'Course, it's no good for how *you* feel about your marriage! Stay cool, :-) Cailleach > >>>>>>>> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what > >>>>>>>> peopel have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >> No, it's been more than a week. Not back to his former >> super-critical self yet, but it just feels like it's headed back in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > nonsense is well in character for him. Is he usually nice when he > comes back from a trip? He's not ever been the "I missed you so much!" type, but he isn't necessarily actually critical or mean. I can't say what he does "usually" anymore, as we're approaching the point where there have been more of the bad years than of the good. But I will say that I thought we'd moved out of the phase where he'd feel the need to criticize as soon as he walked in the door. > I'd be surprised if so, my guess would have > been that all he'd want to do is to retreat from humanity as fast as > possible, snarling at anyone and anything that gets between him and > his solitary den. Except for the snarling. He does tend to want to retreat, and it depends on how much energy he has as to whether he gets unpacked first or just dumps his suitcase and heads upstairs. I don't mind that though -- I know he's tired. > Which is rough, but the chances are that once he's > recovered from the disruption he'll sweeten up again, and he'll be > able to handle untidy worktops and blocked potties again. I'm not so sure.... I mean, first of all, these distruptions are getting more common. He used to travel once/year for business, now he was scheduled to travel 4 weeks out of 7. Thankfully he managed to get two of those weeks switched to the fall, but it may be no better then. At any rate, I tend to operate on intuition, and it *feels* to me as if things are starting to pull back in the negative direction. > And when I say "hang in there" I do not mean "don't be pissed off at > him". I don't even mean "don't pack your bags" :-) I just mean, don't > take his attitude as a reflection on you. IMO it has more to do with > how he feels about being outside his cave than how he feels about you > or your marriage. 'Course, it's no good for how *you* feel about your > marriage! Yes, thanks, and I guess it's a good sign that I didn't even think it was a reflection on me or worry about how he feels about the marriage. I'm just....down because it seems to be a return to a situation that I don't like. Zorra > Except for the snarling. He does tend to want to retreat, and it depends on how > much energy he has as to whether he gets unpacked first or just dumps his > suitcase and heads upstairs. I don't mind that though -- I know he's tired. > He used to travel once/year for business, now he was scheduled to > travel 4 weeks out of 7. Wauughhh! I expect that's why he's started snarling. Even 2 out of 7 is *bad*. Well, except to the extent that it keeps him out of your hair 4 weeks out of 7 :-) > Thankfully he managed to get two of those weeks switched to the fall, but it may be no > better then. No, it probably wont be :-(. When he's due back batten down the hatches and clear a path from the front door to his den! > At any rate, I tend to operate on intuition, and it *feels* to me as if things > are starting to pull back in the negative direction. Oh, that's such a pity. I think all you can do is try not overload *yourself* while he's away so that you have enough energy left to cope when he gets back; or else ignore him and do what you want to do regardless of his snappiness; or some mix of both! > I'm > just....down because it seems to be a return to a situation that I don't like. Yeah, it's tough and I don't see an obvious way to avoid it. Any external stress on your DH makes him so much harder to live with. Cailleach > >> No, it's been more than a week. Not back to his former > >> super-critical self yet, but it just feels like it's headed back in [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Zorra > >>>> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what peopel > >>>> have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! Makes me [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > separate lives, neither doing for each other, and eventually losing whatever > loving feelings they have. I think you describe the path their marriage is on now. On the other hand if Vickie were able to set reasonable and loving limits, and explain what she is doing (over and over again) there is some small chance that her husband will realize that the marriage is in peril, and will care enough to start to be willing to do something about it. Currently he just seems resentful and mean but with no consciousness that his own behavior is damaging his marriage. I write "small" above, because if Vickie's picture of her husband is accurate, he seems like a selfish and childish jerk to me who has never learned to be responsible for his own behavior. If that isn't something you learn as a child, it is hard to learn as an adult. >> >>>> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what peopel >> >>>> have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! Makes me [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > never learned to be responsible for his own behavior. If that isn't > something you learn as a child, it is hard to learn as an adult. Thankfully not impossible or DH and I would be doomed. We were both terribly childish, jerky and irrespobsible. On Mar 26, 7:33 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what peopel > > >>>> have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! Makes me [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > never learned to be responsible for his own behavior. If that isn't > something you learn as a child, it is hard to learn as an adult.- Hide quoted text - Hey Doug, Your a man, do men really not have much baggage? Is it just that much easier for them to let things go? And why is it so much easier for you to resolve things in your own mind without the same kind of closure women need? Vickie- (snip) > Hey Doug, > Your a man, do men really not have much baggage? Is it just that much > easier for them to let things go? And why is it so much easier for > you to resolve things in your own mind without the same kind of > closure women need? You know how I'm going to answer this, right? Individuals vary a lot (you and your husband are very different in some ways, but the truth is you are also probably quite similar in some ways, otherwise you wouldn't have chosen each other). Some men need closure, some do not (just like women). Some men (just like some women) can let things go, and others can't. What you are really asking about is your husband. His behavior suggests to me that he has more baggage than will fit in an SUV. On Mar 26, 9:28 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > (snip) > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > You know how I'm going to answer this, right? Ah hell, yeah I know. > Individuals vary a lot (you and your husband are very different in > some ways, but the truth is you are also probably quite similar in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > What you are really asking about is your husband. His behavior > suggests to me that he has more baggage than will fit in an SUV. And if he is directly asked if he does, but says, No, men don't carry baggage, is there any way to try and get him to admit to built up resentments? Vickie > On Mar 26, 9:28 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > baggage, is there any way to try and get him to admit to built up > resentments? If it were me, I would then ask "why do you so often treat me like sh.t if you aren't feeling resentful about something?" Then I'd bring up recent examples (not nice to you about the paper bags, not answering direct questions, etc.). This might stilll not work (I bet it won't - it wouldn't have worked with my wife when she was suffering from depression) my next step would be to figur out why (or whether) I'm willing to continue living with someone who treats me as if he resents me without being willing to talk about why. On Mar 26, 2:09 pm, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Mar 26, 9:28 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Then I'd bring up recent examples (not nice to you about the paper > bags, not answering direct questions, etc.). I pretty much did ask, where he replied that he hadn't been for a couple of weeks now. I then asked why did he treat me so bad in the first place, and he didn't really reply for awhile, then said 1) I can't let anything go, 2) all the blame falls on him, and 3) most of his remarks were just jokes to which I went way overboard in my reactions (your typical "being too sensitive" stuff). In any case, we inched a bit further in this "whatever" we created. I still wish I knew what it was that made him start treating me so bad, or like sh.t as you say. > This might stilll not work (I bet it won't - it wouldn't have worked > with my wife when she was suffering from depression) my next step > would be to figur out why (or whether) I'm willing to continue living > with someone who treats me as if he resents me without being willing > to talk about why. I think *you* know the answer to this. :-) And thanks for taking the time to still reply to my crap. I am pretty sure I am being redundant in this. Just trying to stay on top of things so I don't fall back into my old patterns. Vickie > On Mar 26, 2:09 pm, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > sure I am being redundant in this. Just trying to stay on top of > things so I don't fall back into my old patterns. I think there's a difference between accepting a shitty situation because you feel helpless to change it and accepting it *for now* because you are still trying to work out ways to get out of it. The second reflects your current position, doesn't it? You haven't exhausted all your possibilities yet even if you do get tired and discouraged (in cycles) by the challenges. On trying to tweak your husband's attitude and responses to you - I think this is something for you to persevere with even though I believe along with several others that you will definitely not be enjoying a quiet life while you do. It will be a good habit for you to get into just because it's a skill that will serve you well in your life, in general, regardless of whether it turns out your husband can't be influenced towards new behaviour. Even if he can, it will not be a fast transition, he's starting from a hugely negative position in that respect. So, lots of hard work and stress and probably not many tangible benefits in your immediate future as far as your marriage is concerned! That's just sucky and you have all my best wishes for keeping strong. I do see you as doing most of the wooing right now and I think it would be good for you to spend more time with friends and children/family and just getting on with enjoying life, with or without your husband. Your husband is used to you seeking him out and wanting more from him so if you become more involved with others (in normal, innocent ways) then the balance may shift. I'd see that as a secondary benefit to changing your focus, though, rather than a ploy to rekindle his interest. So set your new boundaries as you've been doing and step back a little and wait and see what changes happen in your both. I think they will be positive ones for you and I hope they will be for your husband. > Your a man, do men really not have much baggage? Is it just that much > easier for them to let things go? And why is it so much easier for > you to resolve things in your own mind without the same kind of > closure women need? Different Doug but I'll response anyways. I think men hold on to more baggage about people than women do. As the other Doug points out the range is huge so it's an average or a trend that can't be depented on in any one case but that does fit the law of large numbers. Let's not bring up former loves not even 30 years later. Some stones are better left unturned. On the other hand I think men have a lot less baggage on stuff. It's not a matter of letting go but of not putting the emotional lock on stuff in the first place. A pet car might be valued stuff but the list of items that can involve baggage is much smaller for men than women. Again some men are more materialistic than others, but most men simply don't care enough about random items to have any memory of them. Bring up "Remember that time you didn't pick up the cushion" and, uhm, no, there isn't the slightest recollection. It's just baggage of a type that will bring down the blinders and the tune-out. It's a type of baggage that men never drop because we were never interested enough in the first place to pick it up. Some stuff gets sentimental value for the people involved. Engagement rings and such. But much less stuff by men than by women. On Mar 26, 7:33 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >>>> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what peopel > > >>>> have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! Makes me [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Correcting my mistake. I wrote Your a man and I meant You are a man. V >I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what peopel have >interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! Makes me wonder how they >treat their children! :) I was thinking that, too! If, for example, Zorra is thinking that by "treating him like a child" means "denying him a cookie and sending him to his room", then no, I wouldn't advise that! (I'm only kidding here, Zorra, and I don't mean to imply that you treat your kids this way, because I think that you and I seem to have very similar views on raising kids). I agree with Doug that there shouldn't be a whole lot of difference in how we treat young people versus how we treat adults. Obviously there are limits on permissions based on the maturity level of the young person in question, and then there is that sticky wicket of "unconditional love" that children can inspire. (I put it in quotes because, for me, there is truly no such thing--I can think of conditions that would cause me to stop acting lovingly towards my kids). I guess, for me, "treating someone like a child" means not allowing them to get away with sh*t that's not good for the family or the relationship. And yes, I realize that's much more easily said than done, especially when the other party is an adult and you really don't have any power over them! SignatureLauri in WA >> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what peopel >> have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! Makes me [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > done, especially when the other party is an adult and you really don't > have any power over them! Saying "treat him like a child" surely does have a condescending connotation to me. If by that they meant, "treat him like a child, by which I mean treat them like I treat my child, which is to treat them like adults..." then why not just say, "treat him like an adult"? So, yes, my responses have carried the basic assumption that what was being advised would be identifiable to him as being treated as a child. Zorra >>> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what peopel >>> have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! Makes me [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > by which I mean treat them like I treat my child, which is to treat > them like adults..." then why not just say, "treat him like an adult"? Because, like Mr Vickie, children lack the understanding and skill to treat their family properly. And need the learning of it. > So, yes, my responses have carried the basic assumption that what was > being advised would be identifiable to him as being treated as a > child. > Zorra What does it mean to you to "treat him like a child?" >>>> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what peopel >>>> have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! Makes me [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > What does it mean to you to "treat him like a child?" That's a question that you should answer. What does it mean to you? Because if the only thing it means is that you don't return jerk-like behavior with kindness, then that isn't treating someone "like a child" specifically, it's just treating them like you would anyone. Now you say he's *acting* like a child, in that he's forgotten the basic rules of reciprocity, and okay, I can agree with that I suppose.... but I still don't know what you meant specifically by "treat him like a child" that is any different than the way you'd treat any adult. Zorra >>>>> I think the most interesting thing about this thread is what peopel >>>>> have interpretted "treating someone like a child" means! Makes me [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > behavior with kindness, then that isn't treating someone "like a child" > specifically, it's just treating them like you would anyone. I call it treating like a child for two reasons. Because first, most people who have reached Mr Vickie's age, have already learned the lesson that they don't have the right to treat other people like doo doo in order to get what they want or to express frustration or whatever. This is a lesosn that is very common in childhood. Most grown ups dont need limit setting. In Mr Vickie's case, the *tools* are probably in place since he can get along with his collegues. He probably just needs the movtivation to remember that he does not have the right to be a dick to other people. Secondly, the "treatments" I am talking about are generally discussed at lenght in positive discipline and limit setting for children. > Now you say he's *acting* like a child, in that he's forgotten the basic > rules of reciprocity, and okay, I can agree with that I suppose.... I dont know what a basic rule of reciprocity is. > but I still don't know what you meant specifically by "treat him like a > child" that is any different than the way you'd treat any adult. > > Zorra - Require that he speak in a calm and respectful tone in order to get attention. Fail to respond to the bellowing yelling nonsense. Tell him that he does not have the right to speak in that manner, and when he is calm and in control, she is very interested in whatever is troubling him. - Require that he use a troubleshooting attitude when attempting to make domestic changes rather than a belittling and critical one. Indicate that all possible solutions are on the table when he is ready to address his domestic concerns in the spirit of family harmony and meeting all needs rather than belittling her efforts. Until that time, the domestic concerns are hers and she will prioritize as she sees fit. And let the tantrums go uncommented upon. etcetera - R > I don't know how to put it more clearly. It's not angering him that I think is > a bad idea, it's angering him *to no purpose*. And I believe that "treating him > like a preschooler," which is what had been suggested, is counter-productive. Role-modeling the behavior you like to see would also be considered "treating him like a preschooler" though, wouldn't it? I really don't have a problem treating adults like preschoolers or teenagers, if that's how they are acting. If they find it distasteful, then all they need to do is act like an adult. jen > And Zorra, if I may say.....I think that your feelings about it being > a bad thing to make him angry are understandable, because it seems to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > why you see the possiblity of Vickie making her husband mad as such a > bad thing. My guess is that Zorra is thinking there has to be a better way, rather than stooping to his methods. Unfortunately I'm not sure there is. jen >> And Zorra, if I may say.....I think that your feelings about it being >> a bad thing to make him angry are understandable, because it seems to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >My guess is that Zorra is thinking there has to be a better way, >rather than stooping to his methods. Again, I don't see it as "stooping to his methods". I believe that actions have natural consequences, and insulating your mate from those natural consequences seems, to me, to be misleading. As someone (Kathy?) said, your boss will quit paying you if you quit working. You could call that "revenge" or "stooping" if you like, but really it's just the natural consequence of your having stopped working. Same thing with saying what's on my mind--it's a natural consequence of someone treating me badly! SignatureLauri in WA >>> And Zorra, if I may say.....I think that your feelings about it >>> being a bad thing to make him angry are understandable, because it [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > working. Same thing with saying what's on my mind--it's a natural > consequence of someone treating me badly! I've never advised her not to allow natural consequences, or not to speak her mind. As far as tit for tat though.... there may be a certain kind of guy who gets that right away. "Oh, I get it, you are saying no to the beer because I didn't get the bags. Yeah, that was jerky of me, I'm sorry." But it's unlikely that kind of guy is gonna end up in a situation like Vickie and her DH are in now. Instead, what you end up with is him being a jerk, and her being a jerk back, and all good feeling draining out of the marriage, until after a while, no one can even remember who started being a jerk first. Zorra >>>>>> I suppose anything is worth a shot, but I still think that >>>>>> treating him like a pre-schooler will do nothing more than make [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > making him angry in this way will help (but then it would be angering > him, right?). I dont think anyone suggested "purposefully making him angry" as in his anger as the end goal. More like allowing him to be angry while pursuing a course of getting your own needs, the need to be heard and to show that being heard is important, met. > I don't agree, but it's possible, and she can give it > a try if she wants. > Zorra >>>>> I suppose anything is worth a shot, but I still think that >>>>> treating him like a pre-schooler will do nothing more than make [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > things to a head won't help the situation. I guess that depends on > what you mean by "help the situation". "Bringing things to a head" is a good phrase to describe what I had in mind too. > If you mean "maintain the > status quo", then probably failure to molly-coddle won't do that. If [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > people suggested that waiting too long to bring things out into the > open is also dangerous. >>>> I suppose anything is worth a shot, but I still think that treating >>>> him like a pre-schooler will do nothing more than make him angrier. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > molly-coddle him...it's about not doing something that she has no desire to do > anyway, because it won't help the situation. I would argue that it *is* to her benefit to be able to say to herself, if he is going to treat me like poo, I am within my rights to not do nice things for him. I think it is to her detriment to tell herself, if he treats me like poo, I've still got to be sweetness and light because otherwise he'll be angry. Perhaps the former is "treating him like a child" (although I disagree with that, and have stated why elsewhere). But what about the second scenario? In that one she becomes the child (of a dysfunctional parent), who is powerless to make demands and yet must obey out of fear. No good, no good, no good. >>>>> I suppose anything is worth a shot, but I still think that >>>>> treating him like a pre-schooler will do nothing more than make [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > herself, if he treats me like poo, I've still got to be sweetness and > light because otherwise he'll be angry. I'm getting a little tired of saying that's not what I said, but that's not what I said. This sub-thread has never been about that. > Perhaps the former is "treating him like a child" No, it wouldn't be. But a *specific* suggestion was made to treat him like a pre-schooler. > (although I disagree > with that, and have stated why elsewhere). But what about the second > scenario? In that one she becomes the child (of a dysfunctional > parent), who is powerless to make demands and yet must obey out of > fear. > No good, no good, no good. Again, not even the slightest resemblence to anything I've advocated. Zorra >>>>>> I suppose anything is worth a shot, but I still think that >>>>>> treating him like a pre-schooler will do nothing more than make [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Zorra Oh, and BTW, my apologies to Doug A. I can understand better now why you might not want to keep repeating your stance on something that you feel you've explained exhaustively before, even if you realize that the person who has misunderstood has the best intentions. Zorra >>>>> Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? >>>>> Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Zorra Well maybe it has to do with what element of treating like a preschooler is meant. If my preschooler (or school aged for that matter) did not acknowledge my words, I would position my face in front of their face so that their eyes must meet mine, and repeat the words. It is a strange looking feat when the child is on the floor hunched over some legos, but a grown up sitting in a chair or standing, it would not seem too weird to me. This would be one example. But really, in my book, I would not be afraid to make someone angry. I am by no means certain that this would work with Vickie's husband. But fearing to anger him seems to be pointless! I *did* do this with my DH. I stopped doing his laundry all those years ago. He got *very* angry at me and accused me of ... treating him like a child. My calm response was why he thought he had a right to be treated any differently when he was *acting* like a child. Luckily for me, my husband is not the kind of guy ro remain obstinant and beligerant in the face of a gauntlet throw such as that one. YMMV. > But really, in my book, I would not be afraid to make someone angry. > I am by no means certain that this would work with Vickie's husband. > But fearing to anger him seems to be pointless! No, angering someone for no reason is pointless. But I'll stop. I've given up on getting my husband to communicate in any meaningful way, and so I have no useful advice to give Vickie about hers. Zorra >> But really, in my book, I would not be afraid to make someone angry. >> I am by no means certain that this would work with Vickie's husband. >> But fearing to anger him seems to be pointless! > > No, angering someone for no reason is pointless. Allowing someone to feel their anger for a reason is not always pointless. The anger is *his.* She does not need to own "angering" him. > But I'll stop. I've given up on getting my husband to communicate in any > meaningful way, and so I have no useful advice to give Vickie about hers. > > Zorra >> But really, in my book, I would not be afraid to make someone angry. >> I am by no means certain that this would work with Vickie's husband. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > on getting my husband to communicate in any meaningful way, and so I have no > useful advice to give Vickie about hers. It's very telling that you frame this as "angering someone" rather than "doing something that another person gets angry over." >>> But really, in my book, I would not be afraid to make someone angry. >>> I am by no means certain that this would work with Vickie's husband. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It's very telling that you frame this as "angering someone" rather > than "doing something that another person gets angry over." What does it tell? And isn't doing something that you *know* will make them angry "angering" them? Zorra >>>> But really, in my book, I would not be afraid to make someone >>>> angry. I am by no means certain that this would work with Vickie's [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Zorra The productive part of angering them can come in the form of having them FEEL the consequences of their own issues. Where intentionally refraining from what would otherwise be your normal response for fear of angering them will buffer them from the real you. >>>> But really, in my book, I would not be afraid to make someone angry. >>>> I am by no means certain that this would work with Vickie's husband. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > What does it tell? I can't speak for Dr. Lith, but it gives me the impression that you feel responsible for somebody else's anger, or lack thereof. As opposed to him being responsible for his anger, or lack thereof. And isn't doing something that you *know* will make them > angry "angering" them? There's a perhaps subtle, but very important, distinction here IMO. Lets say, for purpose of illustration, that for some reason it makes Husband X angry for whatever reason for Mrs. X to do something that is beneficial for her - exercising, or taking a class to upgrade some work-related skill, for example. In this case, there is nothing wrong with doing these things, and he'd be the one being unreasonable if he got angry about it - so Mrs. X wouldn't be "angering" him, because he has to own his unreasonable anger - that would, in this case, be his fault, not hers - even if she did know in advance he'd be mad. So, IMO, if Mrs. X is screaming insults that she knows will make him angry, then I'd say that would be angering him. If Mr. X is angry because Mrs. X spent the evening doing homework for her class instead of whatever he wanted her to do, then I'd say she was NOT angering him - he has to own that. >>>> But really, in my book, I would not be afraid to make someone angry. >>>> I am by no means certain that this would work with Vickie's husband. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > What does it tell? That you think you own/are responsible for *their* anger. You don't/aren't. > And isn't doing something that you *know* will make them angry "angering" > them? Only if that is your intent. *That*, (your intention) is what you own, not anyone's reaction. Seriously, you may have to come to a "get over yourself" moment. The universe dosen't revolve around any one of us, yet we all seem to be rotating right along with it. Fancy that! He gets angry? His deal. Can you live with it? *Your* deal. It really is no more complex than that. I'll bow out of this one quietly now. >> But really, in my book, I would not be afraid to make someone angry. >> I am by no means certain that this would work with Vickie's husband. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Zorra I have to say, seeing what both of you have been saying lately is soo depressing. I wish there were some solution here!!! Where are the solutions?? (In fact, I think it's even more depressing than my "handbasket" posts, because it's not about the world at large, but about you gals, right here. :-( And empathizing with that is depressing. Especially since there (apparently) are no solutions on the horizon. >>>> Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? >>>> Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > It begins more and more to sound as if techniques for getting through to > preschoolers would work well with your husband. Or dog-training techniques. If you tell a dog to do something, he ignores you, and you have to tell him several more times before he (maybe) responds, you're teaching the dog to ignore you. > > > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > > > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Vickie "Why don't you listen to me?" is a chronic complaint from women who go out with me. I'm just not a good listener. I try, look them right in the eye, concentrate real hard, tune everything out... now what did you just say? I suck at it. It's like some guys are good at picking out furniture, others are good at building it; swap those around and you get ugly fast. Now, if you write it down, I'll get it, assuming I even read it ;) And if you wait until we're in bed, with all the lights out, no distractions, no tv, everything's quiet, cuddle up to me face-to-face, then I have a much easier time talking, and a much easier time listening -- that's the best time for me. Find out when and where he wants to talk, then go there. And don't treat him like a preschooler -- that'll just start a bad cycle. Don't get in the habit of punishing people just because they bug you. - Saul > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? Maybe they are not pretending. In my wife's case, often I have to shout to get her attention if she's reading a book or newspaper or watching the TV. Its just how she's wired. The biggest problem is when I finally reach high enough volume, she thinks I'm yelling at her and gets her feeling hurt. This was especially true early in our marriage. In my case, we went years before realizing I had about a 40dB {unexplained} hearing loss in one ear-- the good ear I sleep on--so once my head hit the pillow, there was no hope I'd hear her up with the babies or whatever. She thought that was a 'man thing' or a 'not my job' attitude on my part--when in truth it was no such thing. After realizing this, she now knows that a nudge is more effective than trying to talk to me to wake me. Perhaps your husband has hearing issues too? > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? Yes-- if they have my problem. > Do they think things are none of your business? Not at all--or at least I don't think they should. > Do they think what was said was too stupid for a reply? I hope not--but have met a few that held themselves in [too] high regard. Hopefully this isn't the case with your DH... Bo > > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > nudge is more effective than trying to talk to me to wake me. Perhaps your > husband has hearing issues too? Nope. His hearing is better than my own. After playing in a band for a long time, it comes with the territory. Not at all the case for him, in fact, he has many (and I mean many) noise pet-peeves. He sleeps with ear plugs. Vickie On Mar 24, 9:50 am, "Bo" <b...@cephus.com> wrote: > "Vickie" <lilliputianbizz...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > nudge is more effective than trying to talk to me to wake me. Perhaps your > husband has hearing issues too? Nope. His hearing is better than my own. After playing in a band for a long time, it comes with the territory. Not at all the case for him, in fact, he has many (and I mean many) noise pet-peeves. He sleeps with ear plugs. I guess that's definitely not your problem then. Have you tried asking him these questions directly--or are they falling under the 'too dumb to receive a response' category? Bo > On Mar 24, 9:50 am, "Bo" <b...@cephus.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > these questions directly--or are they falling under the 'too dumb to receive > a response' category? The too dumb to receive a response category. Like it is an affront to him if I asked him why. Who knows, maybe most of what I say is of no consequence, but I like to hear his voice. At least I did. Whatever, don't really know why I posted this. Same old crap anyway. Vickie >> Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > enough volume, she thinks I'm yelling at her and gets her feeling hurt. > This was especially true early in our marriage. Can you move into her line of site instead of yelling? > In my case, we went years before realizing I had about a 40dB > {unexplained} hearing loss in one ear-- the good ear I sleep on--so once [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Yes-- if they have my problem. Diverging ot-ish... I have poor hearing also though in my case not limited to one ear. I am trying to train my kids to 1. come to me instead of yelling to me which is hard since I have to train myself to do the same courtesy to them 2. direct their faces to my face so I can *hear* them My DH has a voice in a range I find pretty easy to hear most of the time, so he is not a problem. And he and I tend to speak face to face anyway. >> Do they think things are none of your business? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Bo >>> Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Can you move into her line of site instead of yelling? Line of sight doesn't seem to help in getting her attention. I could be standing directly in front of her waving my arms and she won't notice. Often though, who wants to get up from their easy chair just to make a comment or ask a casual question? I think this probably impacts our communication level more than either of us would care to admit--although I don't think it has every reached a problematic level. >> In my case, we went years before realizing I had about a 40dB >> {unexplained} hearing loss in one ear-- the good ear I sleep on--so once [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > 1. come to me instead of yelling to me which is hard since I have to train > myself to do the same courtesy to them That's a good approach--and yes, difficult to always practice what you preach though. Bo > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? > > Do they think things are none of your business? > > Do they think what was said was too stupid for a reply? Assuming it isn't what Zorra said (he really _isn't_ hearing you), I can think of two reasons. 1) he is irritated with you and this is a passive-aggressive way to show that irritation. 2) he feels nagged and is deliberately tuning you out part of the time. (Or a combination of those two - those two things aren't necessarily that different all the time.) On Mar 24, 9:54 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > (Or a combination of those two - those two things aren't necessarily > that different all the time.) Yesterday he unexpectantly bailed on the egg hunt for a bit. Found him in the room. The kids have colds so I asked if he was feeling okay, he didn't answer so I asked again, and he gave me the devil eye and said no. Prior to the egg hunt I asked if he wanted to hide some eggs, he never answered, then came out like 20 seconds later and asked for the bag to hide the eggs. I asked if he was going to watch the Indiana Jones trilogy with us later in the day and he didn't reply. At least a few times a day, he pretends not to hear me. I don't know why other than he finds my voice to a likeness of dolphins, everything I say is an annoyance to him, or he hates my guts. Again it goes back to him resenting the hell out of me, and I can't think of a damn thing to do to change that. Vickie > On Mar 24, 9:54 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I don't think it has anything to do with "not hearing" you. I think he's annoyed for whatever reason. To him, he may think that whatever he is doing is more important than answering you. I have that problem a lot in my house. If my wife is doing something and speak to her...same thing. I get nothing....or in many cases she'll wait for a long minute or 2 and then glare at me...WHAT?! I'm trying to concentrate and all I hear is you babbling in the background. She may have been reading something "important" on the internet. She may have been typing an email. She may have been in deep thought. You never know. All things with which she has no problem interrupting me. If I don't hear her or respond right away, heaven forbid, I have ignored her and made her feel irrelevant. Odd how that kind of thing works. Bottom line, not a hearing problem. I think it more of a narcissism problem. > X-No-Archive:yes > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > Bottom line, not a hearing problem. I think it more of a narcissism > problem.- Hide quoted text - Yeah, I am feeling this with you. If I don't hear him the first time, I get the huge booming VICKIE!!, in a tone that is an "Answer me now!" tone. Thing is, I don't have a problem answering.... when I hear his question. Vickie > If I don't hear him the first time, I get the huge booming VICKIE!!, > in a tone that is an "Answer me now!" tone. > > Thing is, I don't have a problem answering.... when I hear his > question. To me this sound like The Golden Rule. Consider the formal phrasing that's hard to understand: Do unto others as you would have other do unto you. I ofter a simpler translation into moder (American) English: The way you treat others should be the way you want them to treat you. It has some correlaries - 1) If you start out nice, treating others the way you want to be treated ends up with most folks being nice most of the time. 2) Once you get to know someone really well, notice how they treat you then treat them *that* way. That way it's tuned to how they want to be treated not just a guess that how you want to be treated is how they want to be treated. You can tell your very best lifelong friends because they try to do that with you. Anyways, now you know that when you need to interupt Mr Vickie he rather expects you to to a "huge booming MR VICKIE!!, in a tone that is an 'Answer me now!'. Wanna bet he isn't angry when he does that, just loud? There's a joke about Americans that might apply - Americans think that if the speak slower and louder everyone will understand them. I think he's doing that because he tends to focus and that is what works to break into his focus. > > If I don't hear him the first time, I get the huge booming VICKIE!!, > > in a tone that is an "Answer me now!" tone. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > I think he's doing that because he tends to focus and that > is what works to break into his focus. It is worth a shot! Thanks. Oooh except *I* don't want to be yelled at, so wouldn't he then think that is what *I* wanted if I was doing it? Vickie > > I think he's doing that because he tends to focus and that > > is what works to break into his focus. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Oooh except *I* don't want to be yelled at, so wouldn't he then think > that is what *I* wanted if I was doing it? Baby steps. That's in the the golden rule 201B course in a few semesters ... > I don't think it has anything to do with "not hearing" you. I think > he's annoyed for whatever reason. To him, he may think that whatever [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > been typing an email. She may have been in deep thought. You never > know. On Friday I was working late on a project for work, and yes, deep in thought while writing. My DH came home and started babbling about what to do for the weekend. I ignored him - couldn't he see I was in the middle of something? And I didn't want to lose my train of thought. Plus, I had a deadline. Then he says, "I'm going to go jump on craigslist and find someone for some anonymous sex - okay?" Well, needless to say, I heard that part. ;-) > All things with which she has no problem interrupting me. If I > don't hear her or respond right away, heaven forbid, I have ignored > her and made her feel irrelevant. On the flip side, sometimes DH tunes me out too, but it's usually when I am just babbling for sake of hearing my own voice, so I'm quite fine with it!!!! As long as he smiles and pretends he's listening, he can be thinking about what to buy at Home Depot, for all I care. If I happen to slip in a request or favor in the middle of my babbling, I don't expect that his nod is actually a yes. I'll just ask again later, or I'll pause, wait for him to realize I stopped babbling, then ask again. > Odd how that kind of thing works. > Bottom line, not a hearing problem. I think it more of a narcissism > problem. I think this is one of those things where what matters is the balance of the relationship as a whole. If you feel you are usually and generally heard and acknowledged, one episode of being ignored isn't going to be a big deal. If on the other hand it is a frequent event... that's a different story. jen > > I don't think it has anything to do with "not hearing" you. I think > > he's annoyed for whatever reason. To him, he may think that whatever [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > jen Unfortunately, Jen, it's fairly frequent. I find myself, many times, trying to figure out when is a good time to say anything about anything for fear that the anger is going to be unleashed. I can usually tell when it will happen. It's not good, it's not healthy, but I am coming to know her well enough to know when I'm allowed to speak without getting yelled at. Sometimes, there just isn't a good time and I have to just let her get pissed. > > I don't think it has anything to do with "not hearing" you. I think > > he's annoyed for whatever reason. To him, he may think that whatever [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > jen Unfortunately, Jen, it's fairly frequent. I find myself, many times, trying to figure out when is a good time to say anything about anything for fear that the anger is going to be unleashed. I can usually tell when it will happen. It's not good, it's not healthy, but I am coming to know her well enough to know when I'm allowed to speak without getting yelled at. Sometimes, there just isn't a good time and I have to just let her get pissed. Hi, http://samvak.tripod.master.com/texis/master/search/?q=silent+treatment http://samvak.tripod.com/personalitydisorders36.html http://samvak.tripod.com/indifference.html For a more detailed view of pathological narcissism and the Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) - click on these links: http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/npdglance.html http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/narcissismglance.html Other Personality Disorders http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faqpd.html Pathological Narcissism and Other Mental Health Disorders http://malignantselflove.tripod.com/faq82.html The Narcissist or Psychopath Hates your Independence and Personal Autonomy http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4959 Narcissists as Drama Queens http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4948 Violent, Vindictive, Sadistic, and Psychopathic Narcissists http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/4938 Narcissists and Emotions http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5248 Narcissists and Mood Disorders http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/narcissisticabuse/message/5067 Take care. Sam At least a few times a day, he pretends not to hear me. I don't know why other than he finds my voice to a likeness of dolphins, everything I say is an annoyance to him, or he hates my guts. Again it goes back to him resenting the hell out of me, and I can't think of a damn thing to do to change that. Vickie Why does he resent you so badly? I can understand from your examples why you asked those questions---but I think this resentment is likely the root cause of those behaviors. I don't think those behaviors are good for any relationship--but you are certainly right that _you_ can't change his resentment. Its something he and you both are going to have to work thru together..somehow. Relationships sure can be difficult sometimes... Good luck. Bo > At least a few times a day, he pretends not to hear me. I don't know > why other than he finds my voice to a likeness of dolphins, everything [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Why does he resent you so badly? I don't know. I am not perfect. I have f-ed up sometimes in the past, like anyone, but did the best to help change his feelings about those things. I just don't know. Vickie > On Mar 24, 9:54 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Again it goes back to him resenting the hell out of me, and I can't > think of a damn thing to do to change that. Yep. Something is bothering him, and he feels resentful, but he is too much of a baby to actually have a conversation about it. Instead he apparently wants you to guess and to fix it. I predict that this won't change until he realizes that his behavior is threatening something he cares about. It isn't doing that right now. When he behaves like a spoiled child, you respond like the indulgent parent and try to figure out how to fix things for him. I'm going to be a broken record again (do _I_ sound like Flipper?). I think you two need to be in couples therapy together so that he can start to talk about what is bothering him instead of sulking like a baby. If he won't go, you need to go yourself so you can learn tactics for handling him. "Handling" him may be letting him start to understand the consequences of his behavior to the point where he realize that his marriage is threatened. At that point, if he actually values his marriage he may be ready to work on things. If instead you learn he _doesn't_ value his marriage, you'll be left with choosing between staying in a marriage where you aren't valued, and where your husband treats you badly, or withdrawing (at least emotionally). >> On Mar 24, 9:54 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] >and where your husband treats you badly, or withdrawing (at least >emotionally). What he said. On Mar 24, 10:18 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Mar 24, 9:54 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > I'm going to be a broken record again (do _I_ sound like Flipper?). No. > I think you two need to be in couples therapy together so that he can > start to talk about what is bothering him instead of sulking like a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and where your husband treats you badly, or withdrawing (at least > emotionally. I asked and he won't go, so I have to do it alone. I have worries that it will become some kind of bitch-fest, and I will come home angrier than when I left. I also worry that i will get the "Ohhh, is that what your *therapist* told you to do??? Nice." response from DH. And there are some other worries. But like jen said, I need to get off my butt and try. Vickie > I have worries that it will become some kind of bitch-fest, and I will > come home angrier than when I left. There's nothing wrong with anger itself. It's what you do with the anger. If getting angrier gets a person to the point where they say, either to themselves or to the person who's mistreating them, 'I'm pissed off and I'm not going to take this mistreatment any longer' and then actually do something to stop it, I can't see where there's anything wrong with that. On the flip side, counseling is what you make of it. You can choose the way your counseling heads and, if your therapist/counselor doesn't want to go down the same path as you do, then you always have the option to change paths. But, if you haven't been to counseling before, you need to realize that heading in to counseling with an attitude of 'I need to learn how to get my spouse to change' is futile. When the spouse refuses to participate in counseling with you (and sometimes even when they go with), it's pretty much a matter of learning how to live with your spouse as they are or getting up the courage/making the decision to leave. Tracey > > I have worries that it will become some kind of bitch-fest, and I will > > come home angrier than when I left. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > spouse as they are or getting up the courage/making the decision to > leave. Tracey, I agree with you about the "how to get my spouse to change" bit. But I don't entirely agree about your conclusion. I think you (Vickie or whoever) should go to counseling with the goal of learning how to make your life better through changing yourself, or changing how you react to the people around you. If you succeed in doing this, it will almost certainly have an effect on your spouse. _What_ effect is hard to predict. He may realize that he is in danger of losing you and wake up to the idea that he has to act to. He may get angrier still with you, and leave you. He may withdraw completely. He may do _all_ of these things at different times, or something else completely. >>>I have worries that it will become some kind of bitch-fest, and I will >>>come home angrier than when I left. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > of learning how to make your life better through changing yourself, or > changing how you react to the people around you. And I think your conclusion is the end result of the decision that I said needs to be made. If you're a single person starting counseling, sure, your goal is to make your life better. If you're a married person going to counseling because your relationship with your spouse is for sh.t, then you should figure out what your ultimate goal is as far as your relationship is concerned before embarking on life changes. There are perfectly reasonable and valid life changes that a person can decide to try and make that would end up not being compatible with remaining in a relationship with their spouse or with leaving their marriage. It only makes sense to me to have the ultimate goal figured out before you start deciding on the changes that need to be made. Tracey >I have worries that it will become some kind of bitch-fest, and I will >come home angrier than when I left. This implies that you think you should not be angry about his behavior. Is that the case? >I also worry that i will get the "Ohhh, is that what your *therapist* >told you to do??? Nice." response from DH. To this I'd say, so what? Alternatively, you could say "if you come too, then we can't talk about you behind your back" ;-P > >I have worries that it will become some kind of bitch-fest, and I will > >come home angrier than when I left. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > To this I'd say, so what? Alternatively, you could say "if you come too, > then we can't talk about you behind your back" ;-P I *really* like this one. > On Mar 24, 10:18 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > I have worries that it will become some kind of bitch-fest, and I will > come home angrier than when I left. That's a possibility. Before going to counseling thing about what your goals are. Talk about those things with your counselor. You can certainly find counselors who will give you a bitch-fest if that is what you want, but you can also find people who will do something else. > I also worry that i will get the "Ohhh, is that what your *therapist* > told you to do??? Nice." response from DH. What Joy said. "So what if he/she suggested this response. I think it is a good idea. If you want to talk with him/her about it in person, then come with next week." > And there are some other worries. Well, I wouldn't say there is nothing to worry about. Look, right now you and your husband are in a stable, familiar place. It isn't a very good place for you, and it doesn't sound like a very good place for your husband either, but you both probably feel reasonably secure there. If you go to counseling and get serious about it, things will change. Your marriage may improve. It also might implode. It is hard to predict, and will depend on what you want, and on your husband's behavior. I predict that at some point (maybe not now) you'll get unhappy enough with how things are that you'll be willing to risk the possibility of changing things. For me that didn't happen until things had gotten so bad in my marriage that I would have rather divorced than continue indefinitely the way things were. Some people are smarter than me, and don't wait that long. >> On Mar 24, 10:18 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] >indefinitely the way things were. Some people are smarter than me, >and don't wait that long. Or you'll wait until you no longer give a damn at all and you DO divorce, because you cannot see any way of going back. I think it's worth taking some risks before you get there. >>I predict that at some point (maybe not now) you'll get unhappy enough >>with how things are that you'll be willing to risk the possibility of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >I think it's worth taking some risks before you get there. Same here. Nina and I have similar stories, so I think she will agree with me that you don't always get a lot of time between "I wish we could make this work" and "I'm done." For me, it was like the flipping of a light switch. One moment, I cared and I still wanted to work things out, and then I just didn't. He could have become Jesus Christ Himself at that point and it wouldn't have mattered, because the desire to work things out was gone and I was done. You may not be that kind of a person. You might be the kind of a person who can see that coming and be able to run into counseling and derail the train, but I didn't see it until it was all the sudden too late and I no longer cared. At all. SignatureLauri in WA > Yesterday he unexpectantly bailed on the egg hunt for a bit. Found > him in the room. The kids have colds so I asked if he was feeling > okay, he didn't answer so I asked again, and he gave me the devil eye > and said no. Are you sure it was "unexpectedly" bailing? What happened immediately before? > Prior to the egg hunt I asked if he wanted to hide some eggs, he never > answered, then came out like 20 seconds later and asked for the bag to > hide the eggs. This sounds a lot like last week's situation, where you asked him to pick up the paper bags, and he said no, but then went to do it anyway. Is it possible he's trying to "retrain" you? Perhaps he gets annoyed that you ask him to do things he would do *without* being asked? Or maybe it's the way you ask him? > I asked if he was going to watch the Indiana Jones trilogy with us > later in the day and he didn't reply. Is he annoyed that you even had to ask this? From his perspective, maybe it's a given? > At least a few times a day, he pretends not to hear me. I don't know > why other than he finds my voice to a likeness of dolphins, everything > I say is an annoyance to him, or he hates my guts. > > Again it goes back to him resenting the hell out of me, and I can't > think of a damn thing to do to change that. I have to ask... how can you even continue to have sex with him, if you feel this way? I don't think I would have any loving feelings left for that! jen > > Yesterday he unexpectantly bailed on the egg hunt for a bit. Found > > him in the room. The kids have colds so I asked if he was feeling [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Are you sure it was "unexpectedly" bailing? What happened immediately > before? He seemed fine to me. > > Prior to the egg hunt I asked if he wanted to hide some eggs, he never > > answered, then came out like 20 seconds later and asked for the bag to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > that you ask him to do things he would do *without* being asked? Or > maybe it's the way you ask him? That's the catch isn't it? How can I read his mind to know when and if he is going to do something? If you ask me if I can count on him to do things, the list would be small. If he is trying to "retrain" me, he can get in line after myself. *I* am trying to retrain myself from asking most anything. As far as the *how* I ask. I took the advice of a lot of people here about a year ago and had spent a lot of time trying to take notice of tone and the words I use. It may make a bit of difference, but most of the time no matter how things are worded the response is the same. > > I asked if he was going to watch the Indiana Jones trilogy with us > > later in the day and he didn't reply. > > Is he annoyed that you even had to ask this? From his perspective, > maybe it's a given? If it is, he is punishing me by waiting until the last possible moment to do it. Making me wonder *if* it will happen, whatever "it" is. > > At least a few times a day, he pretends not to hear me. I don't know > > why other than he finds my voice to a likeness of dolphins, everything [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > you feel this way? I don't think I would have any loving feelings left > for that! Because I want to feel close to him. Sometimes I feel like I can tell more about how he feels when we do that, if that makes any sense. I try to clear my mind when we make love, but in all honestly it has gotten harder to do. I do have a pretty high sex drive so that probably helps. But in the last few months I think my subconscience has intruded because it is not so easy to find my, umm, happy place? Things just feel a little lonely in that department. Wow, that is pretty telling for me. I don't know if I am ready to face that. It has always been good and sometimes really really good. I don't want to lose that. Vickie >>> Yesterday he unexpectantly bailed on the egg hunt for a bit. Found >>> him in the room. The kids have colds so I asked if he was feeling [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > face that. It has always been good and sometimes really really good. > I don't want to lose that. Unfortunately that may be inevitable as your unhappiness and anger and or resentment grow. I think a healthy sex drive can function pretty well on neutral emotions but negative ones will be bound to dent it. Vickie, what is he angry with you about? Is it your illness? Do you think he could be withdrawing from you because of that - perhaps not wanting the responsibility for caring for you when you have an attack or not coping well with the uncertainty over when one might occur? I have no idea how severe the effects of your anxiety condition are on you or him but it was something that occurred to me. Everything you write about your husband describes someone in emotional retreat as if dealing with you is just too hard for him. > >>> Yesterday he unexpectantly bailed on the egg hunt for a bit. Found > >>> him in the room. The kids have colds so I asked if he was feeling [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > responsibility for caring for you when you have an attack or not coping well > with the uncertainty over when one might occur? I don't know. It could be the panic. Jesu, if it is, I don't know what to do about it. > I have no idea how severe the effects of your anxiety condition are on you > or him but it was something that occurred to me. Everything you write about > your husband describes someone in emotional retreat as if dealing with you > is just too hard for him. I just felt a little stab in my heart from this. Makes me want to ball up my fists and cry my eyes out. I am still working on the seperate thing but in discussing this stuff again, I realize when I last wrote that I didn't care all that much, that I really do, very much even. I just don't want to care. Vickie [snip] >Prior to the egg hunt I asked if he wanted to hide some eggs, he never >answered, then came out like 20 seconds later and asked for the bag to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Again it goes back to him resenting the hell out of me, and I can't >think of a damn thing to do to change that. Vickie, Have you ever heard of John Gottman? He had an excellent book (and many subsequent books) called "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work." http://www.amazon.com/Why-Marriages-Succeed-Fail-Yours/dp/0684802414 If you haven't, and if you're intrigued -- read it. And think about which of the "4 Horsemen of the Apocolypse" have taken residence in your marriage. http://theartofintimacy.blogspot.com/2007/03/four-horseman-of-apocalypse-john.html Barb > If you haven't, and if you're intrigued -- read it. And think about > which of the "4 Horsemen of the Apocolypse" have taken residence in > your marriage. > > http://theartofintimacy.blogspot.com/2007/03/four-horseman-of-apocalypse-john.html Uh, oh, we've got all 4. :-S Zorra >> If you haven't, and if you're intrigued -- read it. And think about >> which of the "4 Horsemen of the Apocolypse" have taken residence in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Zorra In my marriage, we did too :-(( If I remember correctly (I lent my book to someone and never got it back), the one that really poisons the well is contempt. Gottman says once that's present in a marriage, it's far more likely to end, based on his research. Barb > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? I do that to my wife quite regularly. Thanks to my Woodstock days hearing out of my left ear isn't as good as it use to be. What's annoying for me is my wife's voice is relatively soft so I am constantly saying "what?" which is annoying. The reverse might be said "why?" if my hearing is not so good in the left ear would she persistently talk to me while looking in another direction making it difficult for me to hear her when she's looking for a response. SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) > > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > persistently talk to me while looking in another direction making it > difficult for me to hear her when she's looking for a response. It doesn't really fit for me. When I ask him something, say if it is a request, and he doesn't respond, but then shows up doing it a minute later, it is the "I am doing this NOT because you asked.". And that I am not worthy of a response. I feel punished and very small at those times. I want to scream at him "Why can't you just tell me what you are doing?" Or smack him in the face. Or slash his tires. Or shave his eyebrows off while he sleeps. Or....well you get the picture. Vickie >>> Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? >>> Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Vickie And yet you can still have sex with him. Mind boggling! On Mar 24, 3:17 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >>> Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > >>> Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > And yet you can still have sex with him. Mind boggling!- Hide quoted text - I know it is hard to understand, but I try to leave that stuff at the door, like I said. I want him and I like knowing that at least in this, he wants me. And after saying this it, probably makes me look like a shallow, pathetic piece of crap. I should stop writing now, I think. V > On Mar 24, 3:17 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > pathetic piece of crap. > I should stop writing now, I think. Sorry that I brought it up. :-( But if you do stop sleeping with him, Vicki, please tell him in no uncertain terms WHY. Don't play his "read my mind" games. Don't walk around acting all resentful and pissy like he's doing. Just turn away his advances and say, "I'm sorry, but I don't feel particularly amorous when my spouse has been giving me the silent treatment and acting like he resents me all day long." jen > > On Mar 24, 3:17 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Sorry that I brought it up. :-( It's okay. > But if you do stop sleeping with him, Vicki, please tell him in no > uncertain terms WHY. Don't play his "read my mind" games. Don't walk > around acting all resentful and pissy like he's doing. Okay, If that happens. > Just turn away his advances and say, "I'm sorry, but I don't feel > particularly amorous when my spouse has been giving me the silent > treatment and acting like he resents me all day long." He might feel I am using sex as a weapon though. V > > > On Mar 24, 3:17 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > He might feel I am using sex as a weapon though. It's only a weapon, IMO, if you want to have sex with him. If his mistreatment has made you have zero desire for him, then no, it's not a weapon. jen On Mar 24, 6:51 pm, Vickie <lilliputianbizz...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mar 24, 3:28 pm, shinypenny <shinypenny0...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > He might feel I am using sex as a weapon though. It's only a weapon, IMO, if you want to have sex with him. If his mistreatment has made you have zero desire for him, then no, it's not a weapon. ----------------- Intent. If you wish intent to be clear then it must be stated, not implied. > On Mar 24, 6:51 pm, Vickie <lilliputianbizz...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Mar 24, 3:28 pm, shinypenny <shinypenny0...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > Intent. > If you wish intent to be clear then it must be stated, not implied. I can't keep up with the volume of posts on this topic, though I find it interesting. One thing I notice is that it's mostly a hen-fest, with the women kinda ganging up on Mr. Vickie. I poked in on what Yoop had to say on the topic, here, and notice there's a sex-as-weapon sub-thread, along with the sexual desire sub-thread. Interesting. I say that because Vick's got control of the bedroom. Women have control there, because the man truly is the weaker sex behind that closed door. But in the living room, he's got control. He controls the communication. See the corollary here? She likes sex, she likes having sex with him, she wants it, but her desire's going for some reason. Maybe he likes talking, likes talking with her, but his desire to be verbally intimate is waning for some reason. Maybe this is in volume 6 of the third novel in this series of posts, I just haven't found it. I know that for me, speaking my mind is a pretty intimate thing. - Saul >> On Mar 24, 6:51 pm, Vickie <lilliputianbizz...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > On Mar 24, 3:28 pm, shinypenny <shinypenny0...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] >I say that because Vick's got control of the bedroom. Women have control >there, because the man truly is the weaker sex behind that closed door. Oh, that is just such a myth. >>> On Mar 24, 6:51 pm, Vickie <lilliputianbizz...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> On Mar 24, 3:28 pm, shinypenny <shinypenny0...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] >>> mistreatment has made you have zero desire for him, then no, it's >>> not a weapon. If it's a weapon at all it's a double-edged sword because Vickie would also be hurt by wielding it. >>> ----------------- >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> find it interesting. One thing I notice is that it's mostly a >> hen-fest, with the women kinda ganging up on Mr. Vickie. It's my perception that it's the people who been listening to Vickie longest who take a dim view of Mr Vickie's (lack of) pleasant interactions with his family and that includes both men and women. And "hen-fest", Saule? Ick, that's such a sexist put down! I poked in >> on what Yoop had to say on the topic, here, and notice there's a >> sex-as-weapon sub-thread, along with the sexual desire sub-thread. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Oh, that is just such a myth. Hell, yes! The LDP has control if anyone does and that can be either partner or each of them at different times - or neither, which may actually be the case within Vickie's marriage. >>> On Mar 24, 6:51 pm, Vickie <lilliputianbizz...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> On Mar 24, 3:28 pm, shinypenny <shinypenny0...@yahoo.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > > Oh, that is just such a myth. Certainly not the case in our marriage. > I can't keep up with the volume of posts on this topic, though I find it > interesting. One thing I notice is that it's mostly a hen-fest, with the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I say that because Vick's got control of the bedroom. Women have control > there, because the man truly is the weaker sex behind that closed door. How's that? > But in the living room, he's got control. He controls the communication. Yes, because I am open to talking and he doesn't like to, for the most part. > See the corollary here? I wish I did. > She likes sex, she likes having sex with him, she wants it, but her desire's > going for some reason. No, the desire is still very much there. Vickie > > > And yet you can still have sex with him. Mind boggling!- Hide quoted > > > text - [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Sorry that I brought it up. :-( It's okay. > But if you do stop sleeping with him, Vicki, please tell him in no > uncertain terms WHY. Don't play his "read my mind" games. Don't walk > around acting all resentful and pissy like he's doing. Okay, If that happens. > Just turn away his advances and say, "I'm sorry, but I don't feel > particularly amorous when my spouse has been giving me the silent > treatment and acting like he resents me all day long." He might feel I am using sex as a weapon though. V I agree. Doing this could easily make things go from bad to worse--especially if you did so on a continuing basis. Perhaps once or twice but certainly withholding any time you feel he has given you a reason would fall under the weapon classification and would tend to hurt you as much as him. Bo >> > > And yet you can still have sex with him. Mind boggling!- Hide quoted >> > > text - [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >fall under the weapon classification and would tend to hurt you as much as >him. I think that if one is "withholding" sex because of some specific action, then it's a weapon. Or, in some sense, a particularly offensive training tool. Ick. On the other hand, I can't see why one would *want* to have sex with someone who is generally treating one with contempt. I don't think that's using sex as a weapon. I think that's saying, sex is an act of love and intimacy, and I don't really want to have sex with someone who is not treating me with love. Actions and attitudes do have consequences. Or should, I guess. >>It's okay. >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > action, then it's a weapon. Or, in some sense, a particularly > offensive training tool. Ick. I don't follow you on the training tool bit... > On the other hand, I can't see why one would *want* to have sex with > someone who is generally treating one with contempt. I don't think > that's using sex as a weapon. I think that's saying, sex is an act of > love and intimacy, and I don't really want to have sex with someone > who is not treating me with love. I understand that. I guess its a very fine line between 'not wanting to' and not allowing it to happen out of spite. But I think Vickie has said she wants to on some level because it shows he still desires her physically-- that plus her own phys. need being met. If she didn't have those (and perhaps other) reasons and continued to have sex with him _only_ because he wanted it, then I would say it could be very damaging to her psyche and sexuality to continue the physical aspect of the relationship. Does that make sense? > Actions and attitudes do have consequences. Or should, I guess. Yes. But witholding sex on an experimental basis is a very slippery slope. Bo >>>It's okay. >>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > I understand that. I guess its a very fine line between 'not wanting to' > and not allowing it to happen out of spite. I am having trouble with the whole topic. Who *would* want to have sex with someone who gives cause to feel spite? And who would want to have sex with someone who felt spiteful toward them? This makes no sense to me. > But I think Vickie has said she wants to on some level because it shows he > still desires her physically-- that plus her own phys. need being met. If [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Bo >>>It's okay. >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >I don't follow you on the training tool bit... I just meant that this is the way that some people seem to use sex, and I think it's really ugly... if you're a good boy, you can have sex; if you displease me, then no. That's, to me, a lot like the way you'd treat a small child or puppy. Not appropriate. >> On the other hand, I can't see why one would *want* to have sex with >> someone who is generally treating one with contempt. I don't think [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >sexuality to continue the physical aspect of the relationship. Does that >make sense? Yes, it does. I think I'm doing a wretched job of explaining what I mean, but I'm basically agreeing with you. I think, however, if I were Vickie, in the current atmosphere, my desire to be reassured that he still wanted me on some level would wear down pretty quickly in the face of feeling like it was just another way that I was there to do what he wanted when he wanted it in the way he wanted, just like every other aspect of life. And my interest overall would be likely to decline pretty fast. >> Actions and attitudes do have consequences. Or should, I guess. > >Yes. But witholding sex on an experimental basis is a very slippery slope. Oh, yes. That's really what I meant about sex as a weapon or tool. Really bad idea. >>>>It's okay. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > other aspect of life. And my interest overall would be likely to > decline pretty fast. Or worse that I was just some screw like any other screw. >>> Actions and attitudes do have consequences. Or should, I guess. >> >>Yes. But witholding sex on an experimental basis is a very slippery slope. > > Oh, yes. That's really what I meant about sex as a weapon or tool. > Really bad idea. >Or worse that I was just some screw like any other screw. That's how I would feel (and did feel). Like I was nothing, not even good enough to treat with common courtesy during the day, but perfectly fine to serve as a receptacle at night. I have to like someone, and feel pretty darn sure that they like me, before I'm even interested in having sex with them. Anything else, and I'm choking back tears and feeling horribly used and alone while it's going on. SignatureLauri in WA > >> > > And yet you can still have sex with him. Mind boggling!- Hide quoted > >> > > text - [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Actions and attitudes do have consequences. Or should, I guess. The withholding of anything to me represents a withdrawal. It seems that in this case Mr. V is withdrawing. Vickie is continuing to stay engaged in the relationship. I think that if she is at some point not giving him love in the form of sex as a punishment that would be bad. If she becomes repulsed by the thought of it and I think you are suggesting, she should not participate. I believe that for these sorts of things motive is really important. There's also a school of thought that says you should grin and bear it (if you can stand the act and yourself) until things get better. The old "fake it until you make it" approach. The positive of this is that it is less likely to lead into a downward spiral. Withdrawing that leads to withdrawing that leads to withdrawing leads to divorce. I would think this approach has a better chance of ultimately keeping the marriage together for most people. T > In article <1muhu3h9uj7lde5mkcm117fsav8necu...@4ax.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > thought of it and I think you are suggesting, she should not > participate. I don't know if she is saying she is repulsed. Sounds like she is just getting to the point she just doesn't have her heart in it like before due to her treatment. I agree with most everyone else here that she shouldn't withold the goods as a form of punishment, but I don't think one should have to force themselves to engage in the fun if it isn't so fun any more due to poor treatment. > I believe that for these sorts of things motive is really important. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I would think this approach has a better chance of ultimately keeping > the marriage together for most people. I don't think I believe that "faking it" is such a great idea. I think honesty is a better approach to this situation. Otherwise, he thinks nothing is wrong. If she stops giving out the goodies because she is being treated "not so good", he's going to wonder why, I would think. Then there is an opportunity to at least get it out on the table. "You have done x, y, z or not done x, y, z, and it makes me feel this certain way. I'm having trouble 'being in the mood' when I'm being ignored and treated like I am". I think faking it is basically just going to prolong the problem and he may realize at some point that Vickie isn't enjoying it like she used to, at which point, maybe it comes out then. I think this is a worse scenario. > T- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - > > In article <1muhu3h9uj7lde5mkcm117fsav8necu...@4ax.com>, > > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > just getting to the point she just doesn't have her heart in it like > before due to her treatment. Actually she isn't even saying that. Other people are questioning _how_ her heart can be in it, but Vickie is saying her heart is still in it. > I agree with most everyone else here > that she shouldn't withold the goods as a form of punishment, but I [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > think honesty is a better approach to this situation. Otherwise, he > thinks nothing is wrong. I agree. There may be times when "faking it" is a sensible course of action, but not if you are both being treated badly and don't want to be having sex with your partner. > If she stops giving out the goodies because > she is being treated "not so good", he's going to wonder why, I would [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > point that Vickie isn't enjoying it like she used to, at which point, > maybe it comes out then. I think this is a worse scenario. In general yes. In this case, it doesn't sound like Vickie _is_ faking it - it sounds like she enjoys sex with her husband. On Mar 25, 12:20 pm, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > In article <1muhu3h9uj7lde5mkcm117fsav8necu...@4ax.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 105 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Okay, she didn't use those words, but she said: I try to clear my mind when we make love, but in all honestly it has gotten harder to do. I do have a pretty high sex drive so that probably helps. But in the last few months I think my subconscience has intruded because it is not so easy to find my, umm, happy place? Things just feel a little lonely in that department. Point is, things aren't the same. When I read the above paragraph, I see someone that enjoys sex, wants sex, but is having to work harder to "keep their heart in it". I'm not saying she doesn't enjoy it or is even planning to stop. I don't think she is faking it either, but T is suggesting that she should. > Okay, she didn't use those words, but she said: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > is even planning to stop. I don't think she is faking it either, but > T is suggesting that she should.- My two cents on faking it... Faking it until you can make it can be okay when the issue is that you've hit a spell where your natural desire is in the toilet, but you still love your partner and the relationship is just fine. Perhaps your hormones have taken a temporary dip. This doesn't mean you fake an orgasm for your partner's benefit; it means you give it a shot, go through the motions every once in awhile, instead of waiting until the desire returns first. Because desire has a funny way of coming back midway through the act. And I don't know about you but the more frequent, the more desire I tend to have. So it's all about keeping it in use and not letting it dry up completely. Not allowing a temporary dip to become a permanent one. In this case, the emotional connection is still very much there - it's the physical desire that just for some reason isn't kick-starting. And "faking" in this case is also about simply prioritizing sex. Sometimes that's what's really needed: making sex a priority. If lack of alone-time is what's making a person's desire falter, then putting sex back on the agenda with or without desire means that the couple will have to find ways to find that alone-time again. And that may be all that's needed for desire to return naturally. As for continuing to have sex when the relationship is going through troubles, some couples do that; the sex is away to keep some good feelings going between them. Then you have couples that need drama in their lives in order to keep the heat going in bed. The people who fight all day and make love all night. This is different than continuing to have sex with someone who's mistreating you. It's very hard to have desire for someone who treats you poorly and ignores you outside of bed. When Vicki says she's feeling lonely in bed, well... that tells me that she is at very high risk to fall into the last case, if things continue on this path. jen > > Okay, she didn't use those words, but she said: > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > - Show quoted text - In short, I agree. That is basically what I was trying to say about Vickie's situation. I would probably agree with "the more frequent thing, the more desire I have". I think more so than that, it is about how much I'm pleasuring her. If I'm making her crazy with it, I want to give more. That gets my desire up, so to speak, to do it more often. If she isn't into it or I'm chastised, forget it. I don't know if all that made sense. > X-No-Archive:yes > [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] > place? > Things just feel a little lonely in that department. You both have it right. Doug and you, I mean. It is hard to explain though. I still want him very much and I won't refuse him for hard feelings going on because there is a kind of understanding about the honesty of the act for what it is and means to us. When someone says they don't understand how I could do it with the way things are going, all I can say is that it doesn't feel *wrong* to still make love. The problems don't go away of course, but for us, it helps to reconnect and know we love one another. I know most people need/want/have to have things going pretty right in life with their SO to feel the desire to make love, so I could be different in this. Maybe sometimes it is like a tool we use to remind us of being in "it" together. Like when people have date night? Sheesh, it is hard to explain this. So, as for lately, I still very much have the desire to be with him. Getting going is not a problem. But during it, lately I feel kind of seperate and I am not sure if that is because I am bringing in my feelings of trying to be more independant and not being entirely responsible for his happiness or lack there of. As far as the feeling I get from him during it, I am fairly certain he feels it a little differently too. So, faking is not part of the equation. It is all out there in the open when we do that, so to speak. Oh, and of course it is not always perfect. There are mishaps and what nots. But we have never had a problem talking about what happened in there. This feels a bit different though. Vickie > It is hard to explain though. > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > what nots. But we have never had a problem talking about what > happened in there. So this sounds to me like things aren't that bad (at least not yet).... or perhaps his issues outside of the bedroom have little to do with you. He's just happening to take them out on you .... which isn't fair... but I guess if it was a choice between taking them out on his kids, and on you... well. Maybe that's what he's thinking? I dunno, Vicki. And in the bedroom he tries to make up for it? Sort of his way of smoothing things over? We know he's not a big communicator to begin with, and yeah, some people can communicate in bed better than outside of it. > This feels a bit different though. What does? jen > > It is hard to explain though. > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > isn't fair... but I guess if it was a choice between taking them out > on his kids, and on you... well. Maybe that's what he's thinking? Maybe. And no, in the bedroom things are not so bad. > I dunno, Vickie. > > And in the bedroom he tries to make up for it? Sort of his way of > smoothing things over? Yes and no. He makes me feel wanted to be sure, and I can tell that he is not unhappy when doing it. But he also leaves things at the door. And we have discussed the fact that having sex does not right all wrongs. It is kind of like a break for us, a bit, if you get that. > We know he's not a big communicator to begin with, and yeah, some > people can communicate in bed better than outside of it. Absolutely. > > This feels a bit different though. > > What does? Well, that it feels harder to leave the crap at the door. Not impossible, but sometimes I need to find a way to relax more. Not for him necessarily, but for me and us. Vickie [...] > It is hard to explain though. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > life with their SO to feel the desire to make love, so I could be > different in this. FWIW, I understand this very well. We can connect as couples on so many levels and if one or two ways are less easy for some reason then a successful sexual experience can be a way of making up for the other less satisfying or conflicted interactions. We may even crave sex more often simply because of the positive balancing effect it has, overall. And little pockets of sweetness are not to be discounted when there's a dearth of them! I think those of us who can leave relationship issues at the door in this way (or leave them for longer when there are serious long-lasting problems) are luckier in some respects than those who don't have quite as much of the same kind of resilience. Some good feelings can continue to be banked and there can still be a sense of "we" rather than cold and lonely separateness. I think giving up that kind of conversation would be very difficult to do while it feels good, Vickie, even if it does feel as if it's changing in tone right now. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > while it feels good, Vickie, even if it does feel as if it's changing in > tone right now. Thanks for posting this. This is all clear as a bell for me, so maybe some who have a hard time understanding how someone does this will now have a better picture. Thinking over what I have been feeling this last week and the few times we did it, I am fairly confident I will swing back to fully involved. I suppose I should have known that when contemplating some serious changes in myself that this may be a harder thing to put aside in the bedroom than other things, the things I am used to putting aside. Vickie > On Mar 24, 3:17 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > V No, but you SHOULD stop being so damn hard on yourself!! You *always* blame yourself. I wish you would stop putting yourself down like this! Look - and I think most here will agree: HE is the problem here - not you. Yet you take it on as being you?? But how to resolve the whole crisis in the marriage though, I just don't know, but it is very distressing (just as with Zorra's). On Mar 24, 3:30 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > > On Mar 24, 3:17 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > No, but you SHOULD stop being so damn hard on yourself!! You *always* blame > yourself. I wish you would stop putting yourself down like this! I will try harder. > Look - and I think most here will agree: HE is the problem here - not > you. Yet you take it on as being you?? In the end *I* am the only thing I can control. I guess if I feel like it *is* my problem then *I* can fix it. > But how to resolve the whole crisis in the marriage though, I just don't > know, but it is very distressing (just as with Zorra's). Remember I am an open book. I share details, maybe too many. And I have been running out of the mouth lately. Don't give up on it yet, please. Vickie > On Mar 24, 3:30 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > Vickie I'm still here. Well, physically, at least. We're all still here, Vickie. > On Mar 24, 3:17 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > And after saying this it, probably makes me look like a shallow, > pathetic piece of crap. No, it doesn't. I understand what you are saying. It is easy, by the way, to dismiss the sexual connection as shallow. Of course it isn't shallow at all, which is (for example why people take sexual fidelity so seriously. > And yet you can still have sex with him. Passion emanating from a completely different emotional level. SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) > It doesn't really fit for me. > > When I ask him something, say if it is a request, and he doesn't > respond, but then shows up doing it a minute later, it is the "I am > doing this NOT because you asked.". The only thing I can think of that would possibly put Mr V's actions into a more positive light, is if he is trying to reform by doing things you normally ask *before* you ask for them. For example, when you asked if he was watching the movie with you and the kids later.... I understand why you asked (because chances were high he was going to be going on WOW later, since he's long been checked out of the family time). But maybe somewhere in his head is that he's trying to do better and join the family more? Likewise, with the paper bag request and the easter egg hunt request... all three of these requests have to do with the children and his role as a parent. Perhaps he's responding the way he does, because he's thinking, "You have to ASK? Of course I'll do these things... I'm their father." And perhaps he gets resentful because you ask before he can just do them? If this is the case, it would sure help if he just stated this clearly and communicated. But ... well... maybe his ego is in the way and it's too much for him to admit he's been bad in the parenting role and checking out too much on the family. Instead he just wants to do better. But maybe in his head it doesn't count if you ask him to do these things. And there could be something in the way you state the requests that unintentionally rubs him the wrong way... because it's a reminder he's been so checked out and slacking on his duties!! Because, you know, you shouldn't *have* to ask these things. Right? jen > And there could be something in the way you state the requests that > unintentionally rubs him the wrong way... because it's a reminder he's > been so checked out and slacking on his duties!! > > Because, you know, you shouldn't *have* to ask these things. Right? ... following up on myself.... There is a difference between: "Are you going to hide the easter eggs?" and "Here are the easter eggs honey!" ...especially if easter-egg hiding has traditionally been his role year after year. There is also a difference between: "Are you going to watch the movie with us later?" and "I was thinking about starting the movie around 7 pm after the kids had their bath - does that work for you?" jen > And there could be something in the way you state the requests that > unintentionally rubs him the wrong way... because it's a reminder he's > been so checked out and slacking on his duties!! > > Because, you know, you shouldn't *have* to ask these things. Right? ... following up on myself.... There is a difference between: "Are you going to hide the easter eggs?" and "Here are the easter eggs honey!" ...especially if easter-egg hiding has traditionally been his role year after year. There is also a difference between: "Are you going to watch the movie with us later?" and "I was thinking about starting the movie around 7 pm after the kids had their bath - does that work for you?" jen ----------- What jen said. > > It doesn't really fit for me. > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Because, you know, you shouldn't *have* to ask these things. Right? The ego part makes sense to me. He has quite an ego. So yeah, if this is the case, that he feels I am rubbing his nose in the fact that he isn't doing enough for his family, then I can see why he would rather not respond and feel resentful. As for knowing I shouldn't have to ask for these things....no, I didn't really know I shouldn't have to. Vickie > For example, when you asked if he was watching the movie with you and > the kids later.... I understand why you asked (because chances were > high he was going to be going on WOW later, since he's long been > checked out of the family time). But maybe somewhere in his head is > that he's trying to do better and join the family more? Jesus, did you take a double dose of Polyanna pills today? To counter that with a double dose of cynicism, I suspect that if she just stopped asking him for any involvement with the family, he would stop being involved entirely. >> For example, when you asked if he was watching the movie with you and >> the kids later.... I understand why you asked (because chances were [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >just stopped asking him for any involvement with the family, he would >stop being involved entirely. I'm with you on this. I mean, sure, it's really a good idea to think about the best possible spin on things... but you can only give churlish behavior the benefit of the doubt for so long. I'd be a lot more inclined to buy into the "incompetent but well-intentioned somewhere in his head" idea if it wasn't accompanied by a flat refusal to go to therapy and a lot of really fundamental rudeness. >>> For example, when you asked if he was watching the movie with you and >>> the kids later.... I understand why you asked (because chances were [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > by a flat refusal to go to therapy and a lot of really fundamental > rudeness. I'm still kind of reeling from the calling-his-kid-a-retard thing. > >>> For example, when you asked if he was watching the movie with you and > >>> the kids later.... I understand why you asked (because chances were [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > I'm still kind of reeling from the calling-his-kid-a-retard thing.- I must've missed that thread! jen >> For example, when you asked if he was watching the movie with you and >> the kids later.... I understand why you asked (because chances were [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Jesus, did you take a double dose of Polyanna pills today? Mental note to self: remember that line! > And that I am not worthy of a > response. I feel punished and very small at those times. > I want to scream at him "Why can't you just tell me what you are > doing?" Or smack him in the face. Or slash his tires. Or shave his > eyebrows off while he sleeps. Or....well you get the picture. Yep... high maintenance behavior! Some of the things he does are NOT right. But, some of your behavior is ugly as well; makes for two unhealthy puppies undoubtedly not feeding the other. You feel... you feel.. you sound like a little girl complaining about a bad daddy. Vickie, you're always feeling, almost as though your hyper feeling. I wonder how much regular posting of feeling and reading the feedback is influencing behavior. If my wife says something to me, doesn't mean I have to respond. Sometimes the expectation of talk does more harm then no talk. I just go ahead to do what's requested, other times I don't if I have something else that has my attention. I think you're making a mtn out of mole hill while other times you go the exact opposite unhealthy way and make a real mountain into a whittle mole hill for fear of having to deal with the bigger truth. SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) > > And that I am not worthy of a > > response. I feel punished and very small at those times. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > right. But, some of your behavior is ugly as well; makes for two > unhealthy puppies undoubtedly not feeding the other. I know I have my part in all this. > You feel... you feel.. you sound like a little girl complaining about a > bad daddy. I didn't have one, so I don't understand. > Vickie, you're always feeling, almost as though your hyper > feeling. I wonder how much regular posting of feeling and reading the > feedback is influencing behavior. Maybe. I am pretty open to influence. You want me to stop posting, yes? Honestly there are a few people here who can really influence me. You included. I guess that can be both bad and good. > If my wife says something to me, doesn't mean I have to respond. > Sometimes the expectation of talk does more harm then no talk. I just [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > a real mountain into a whittle mole hill for fear of having to deal with > the bigger truth. What is the bigger truth? Vickie > I didn't have one, so I don't understand. Essentially, I grew up with out a father too. Doesn't mean you don't have the childhood expectations and issues seeping through in your interactions with your DH (male figure). >> [3 quoted lines suppressed] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What is the bigger truth? The bigger truth is not knowing the difference, nor caring to learn. SignatureSD:) "Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them.(A.E.)" My disclaimer: I can say, but can't make you see...(S.D.) > > I didn't have one, so I don't understand. > > Essentially, I grew up with out a father too. Doesn't mean you don't > have the childhood expectations and issues seeping through in your > interactions with your DH (male figure). I suppose I could make a guess at what those expectations are, like wishes. > >> [3 quoted lines suppressed] > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > The bigger truth is not knowing the difference, nor caring to learn. The difference of what is a mountain and what is a mole hill and dealing with those accordingly? I agree I can have some problems with this. I would like to learn, figure out which is which. Do you think I don't want to know? Skip that, you don't need to answer that. Vickie > And that I am not worthy of a > response. I feel punished and very small at those times. > I want to scream at him "Why can't you just tell me what you are > doing?" Or smack him in the face. Or slash his tires. Or shave his > eyebrows off while he sleeps. Or....well you get the picture. I do get the picture and it sounds pretty bleak. Your husband makes you angry. He would make a *saint* angry. You are very afraid of your own anger. Your anger pushes all kinds of buttons inside you, including buttons about unworthiness and being punished. And that makes you *more* angry and gives you spiteful thoughts. And then you feel even less worthy and more punishable. IMO you *do* need a therapist, Vickie, or a counsellor. Your husband isn't going to stop making you angry so you need to find better ways of dealing with the anger he causes, ways that don't do *you* so much damage. Sure, you're going to have to talk about how angry you feel. With so much infuriating behaviour from your husband, and so much anger and stress pent up inside you, at some point you may well need to let the therapist see just how angry you feel. OK, you're right, that could feel like a bitch-fest to begin with. But it's not going to carry on that way. You'll probably spend far more time on the stuff about feeling unworthy etc, where that comes from and what to do about it. And you'll end up feeling stronger and more in control and a lot *less* helplessly angry - even if your husband's behaviour remains unchanged. I find it funny that you are sure that your husband must have a huge amount of pent-up resentment which he wont talk about and you are upset because he wont talk about it ... while you are afraid to talk to a counsellor about how much pent-up resentment *you* have built up. Pot, kettle? :-) C'mon Vickie - you can be braver than he is! And I also wonder how the anxiety and panic fits in to all this. Is it connected to your anger, or is it completely separate? How does the need to manage your anxieties affect your life and your relationships? I mean I don't expect you to tell *me*, I'm not a therapist, but I think you could usefully explore that with a therapist and maybe get some better solutions. So I do think there's some percentage in spending less of your time and energy worrying about your husband's motives and trying to change his bad behaviour, and *more* energy just focussing on yourself and your own inner needs and feelings. >I also worry that i will get the "Ohhh, is that what your *therapist* >told you to do??? Nice." response from DH. Heh. My DH said that to me once after I'd had a go at him and I said "no, that is what *I* decided to do". Because it doesn't matter whether or not I discussed it with anyone else, I'm responsible for my own actions. Cailleach > > > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > > > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Vickie > > And that I am not worthy of a > > response. I feel punished and very small at those times. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > his bad behaviour, and *more* energy just focussing on yourself and > your own inner needs and feelings. Yes to all that. > > And that I am not worthy of a > > response. I feel punished and very small at those times. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > to a counsellor about how much pent-up resentment *you* have built up. > Pot, kettle? :-) C'mon Vickie - you can be braver than he is! LOL, maybe. I am guessing is all, as to how much resentment he has. > And I also wonder how the anxiety and panic fits in to all this. Is it > connected to your anger, or is it completely separate? How does the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > his bad behaviour, and *more* energy just focussing on yourself and > your own inner needs and feelings. I hear you, and what you are saying. I realize this NG is not the proper place to get "therapy" but it feels safer is all. I tell you my last experience with a therapist was a disaster. It was like I was flying off the walls all over the place! I felt so un- grounded and it induced my panic to high levels. A few times in the middle of talking I just told the therapist I had to get out, and would leave. My symptoms then increased to the point of having them a day before a visit. Basically it is now a trigger, if you can understand that. So not only do I fear the panic, I fear the fear of it. I would like to say, I DON'T let it rule me, but I hate forcing myself to face certain triggers. Things in the panic department have been pretty damn good. Maybe I should "cowgirl up". It is tough is all. But I can get some gusto when I really want to do something. Yuck. Talking about this kind of crap sucks. Vickie > I would like to say, I DON'T let it rule me, but I hate forcing myself > to face certain triggers. Things in the panic department have been [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Vickie, Dearest, I keep reading bits and pieces of this saga, and I'm missing some key points, so bear with me, if at all, but from the parts I'm eviscerating, it sounds like he's an independent guy who doesn't like being told what to do. I won't give advice, and don't project Saul to Mr. Vick, and don't project Mrs. Metaphorical Saul onto Vickie, but I'll tell you what might make me act the way he's acting, which sounds stand-offish and rebelliant (and I can't find "rebelliant" in the dictionary -- is that a word? rebellious? wtf?). ... I don't like being Mother-Henned. "Hey, honey, what's that smell? Oh, god, it's the trash! Can you get that!" Geez, woman, I can smell. Maybe I like the smell of two-day banana peels. Maybe you should've taken the bananas to the outside garbage like I would've, instead of chunking them into a new trash bag you knew would sit there for three days. I think that, but I don't say that. I say, "Sure." And I get the trash and haul it out, a half-empty trash bag that shouldn't have had freakin bananas in it, ya dern woman. How would a woman like it if a guy reminded her of something obvious? "Are you really going to wear that? It's just dinner." Geez, a.shole, I know it's just dinner, but all my pants are dirty, and I felt like wearing a dress for a change. Maybe if you helped with the laundry I'd have something to wear. You don't say that, though. You swirl in the mirror, say, "You think I should change?" He says, "Yeah, put on something less dressy so I don't have to wear a button-down." And you change, but now you feel childish, father-daughtered by your husband, controlled and a little humiliated, and a lot like a dumbshit. Plus now you're wearing dirty pants. ... Moving onto discussing feelings, I'm not real good at expressing my anger, and I know that, but really, I'm a guy. Lots of us are like that. We sit around and talk about anything but our "feelings," because in reality, in the real world of dark beer and hairy-chested rural-sexuals (Yoop!), the guys who sit around and talk about their feelings are fags. Not really, but you'll agree that guys who discuss their hopes and dreams tend to have quite a few pink shirts in their closet. Now, I may get online and vent, and if you catch me at bedtime, when it's quiet, no distractions, no tv, you cuddle up next to me and nibble for a minute, maybe slip me a beer an hour before bedtime to loosen me up, with a Tylenol PM, then start in on the feelings talk, I might be more receptive than when I'm up on the roof tarring new shingles that blew off in last night's gale-force winds. Anyway, I know I don't like being told what to do, because it makes me feel like I missed something, and makes me feel like a idget. And I don't like talking about it, at least not while the lights are on. Why? Because I'm humiliated and belittled, so fug off. (xoxo to Vickie, don't project yourself into this post, ok, examples only ;) - Saul > > I would like to say, I DON'T let it rule me, but I hate forcing myself > > to face certain triggers. Things in the panic department have been [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > parts I'm eviscerating, it sounds like he's an independent guy who > doesn't like being told what to do. Very true. It is a year running now (April), this saga, and a bit embarassing to admit that. Maybe one of the key bits you have missed is my first reason for coming here. His addiction to the game WOW. He started dallying in it say, 5 years ago. The last 2/12 before coming here he spent any free time he had playing. He wore his headphones, and pretty much checked out on us (me and the 3 kids 9, 7,and 3 at the time). It was excruciatingly(sp?) painful to see your marriage become a ghost of what it was and what you hoped it would be. He hasn't quit entirely but there have been some changes to how absorbed he was before, which I am grateful for. > I won't give advice, and don't project Saul to Mr. Vick, and don't > project Mrs. Metaphorical Saul onto Vickie, but I'll tell you what > might make me act the way he's acting, which sounds stand-offish and > rebelliant (and I can't find "rebelliant" in the dictionary -- is that > a word? rebellious? wtf?). Rebelliant? A word? Sure, fine by me. I have a host of made up words in my vocab. > I don't like being Mother-Henned. "Hey, honey, what's that smell? Oh, > god, it's the trash! Can you get that!" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and haul it out, a half-empty trash bag that shouldn't have had > freakin bananas in it, ya dern woman. And DH would say, "no", because just about anything I ask of him is putting him out. > How would a woman like it if a guy reminded her of something obvious? > "Are you really going to wear that? It's just dinner." [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > humiliated, and a lot like a dumbshit. Plus now you're wearing dirty > pants. How dirty? I might be okay with a couple grass stains on the knees, if eating at home of course. > Moving onto discussing feelings, I'm not real good at expressing my > anger, and I know that, but really, I'm a guy. Lots of us are like > that. We sit around and talk about anything but our "feelings," > because in reality, in the real world of dark beer and hairy-chested > rural-sexuals (Yoop!), the guys who sit around and talk about their > feelings are fags. lol It is not that I want him to get all Stuart Smalley on me. I mean I fell in love with the man's man he is, dark beer and all. But I don't understand what he is so angry about. Everyday he wakes in a bad mood. Everyday he comes home and starts in on one of the kids or me. Conversations we have are me telling him the sky is blue, but he insisting it is some mesh of indigo and sea- foam green and could I *be* anymore stupid in not knowing this. And if I do ask for a favor, he walks away, pretends not to hear me, or just refuses with a no. > Not really, but you'll agree that guys who discuss their hopes and > dreams tend to have quite a few pink shirts in their closet. Okay, but is it that difficult to sometimes listen to your woman's hopes and dreams. I am so uninteresting to him! And I can't help that much. I mean most anything I say at this point is "cringe worthy" to him, if you get my drift. > Now, I may get online and vent, and if you catch me at bedtime, when > it's quiet, no distractions, no tv, you cuddle up next to me and > nibble for a minute, maybe slip me a beer an hour before bedtime to > loosen me up, with a Tylenol PM, then start in on the feelings talk, I > might be more receptive than when I'm up on the roof tarring new > shingles that blew off in last night's gale-force winds. I had tried that before, kind of catering and buttering him up. I suppose I could do that, but it gets tiring. But if I want to talk "feelings" I suppose that is the route I need to go again. Also, twould be me re-tarring the roof. Remember I am a SAHM and that falls under domestic tasks. > Anyway, I know I don't like being told what to do, because it makes me > feel like I missed something, and makes me feel like a idget. Probably the worst thing you could do to a man, yes? Well, at least *my* husband hates it anyway. See I don't mind so much being wrong and will admit to my mistakes. It is clearly a punch in the stomach for him. But dang!, I am right sometimes! > And I don't like talking about it, at least not while the lights are > on. Why? Because I'm humiliated and belittled, so fug off. Would you say f.ck off to your wife? Just curious. > (xoxo to Vickie, don't project yourself into this post, ok, examples > only ;) Ooops. I guess I did. But it is easier to refer to my issues, because, well... that is the topic after all, sort of, maybe, yeah? PS I can always use the x's and o's, so thanks kindly. Vickie > > > I would like to say, I DON'T let it rule me, but I hate forcing myself > > > to face certain triggers. Things in the panic department have been [quoted text clipped - 119 lines] > It is clearly a punch in the stomach for him. But dang!, I am right > sometimes! I'm an engineer, and my ex used to chide me when she was right, "Good thing I'm the engineer, huh." I didn't mind, it was kinda cute. She really was/is a smart girl. > > And I don't like talking about it, at least not while the lights are > > on. Why? Because I'm humiliated and belittled, so fug off. > Would you say f.ck off to your wife? Just curious. For the record, no, absolutely not, never. I might think it, but I wouldn't say it. When I do fight, I try to fight fair, and keep it above the belt, nothing personal. - Saul > > (xoxo to Vickie, don't project yourself into this post, ok, examples > > only ;) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > > > Anyway, I know I don't like being told what to do, because it makes me > > > feel like I missed something, and makes me feel like a idget. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I'm an engineer, and my ex used to chide me when she was right, "Good > thing I'm the engineer, huh." As in computer science engineer? Or railroad? If railroad I bet you could get into some real good fantasies, chug chug and all that, but you would need the hat. (Now if Bill reads this, his sixth sense is probably ringing off the hook! As in, I am avoiding anything of import.) > I didn't mind, it was kinda cute. She really was/is a smart girl. I am sorry things didn't work out for you and her. Sometimes what you write....you could,... well, if it was on paper you could twist it and wring the tears from it. Unless I got it all wrong, which could be very possible. Just my thoughts. > > > And I don't like talking about it, at least not while the lights are > > > on. Why? Because I'm humiliated and belittled, so fug off. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > wouldn't say it. When I do fight, I try to fight fair, and keep it > above the belt, nothing personal. Yeah, I feel the same. Vickie On Mar 27, 2:25 pm, saulgoode <pudbo...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Anyway, I know I don't like being told what to do, because it makes me > > > feel like I missed something, and makes me feel like a idget. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I'm an engineer, and my ex used to chide me when she was right, "Good > thing I'm the engineer, huh." As in computer science engineer? Or railroad? If railroad I bet you could get into some real good fantasies, chug chug and all that, but you would need the hat. (Now if Bill reads this, his sixth sense is probably ringing off the hook! As in, I am avoiding anything of import.) I'm a Chemical Engineer, programmer, computer nerd, statistical analyst, but that's just my day job. Given my druthers, I'd program to satisfy my problem-solving ego, write to cool the worms, and work in the woodshop to make the voices stop ;) > I didn't mind, it was kinda cute. She really was/is a smart girl. I am sorry things didn't work out for you and her. Sometimes what you write....you could,... well, if it was on paper you could twist it and wring the tears from it. Unless I got it all wrong, which could be very possible. Just my thoughts. Yeah, I know. It's a weird situation. What happened, in the end, was that we're what happens when two good but broken people meet. Ever see Tommy Boy? She's my biscuit (the sale). I broke her. Didn't mean to. Lemme see if I can find that bunny post I wrote like two years ago, bout killing things you love. - Saul > > > And I don't like talking about it, at least not while the lights are > > > on. Why? Because I'm humiliated and belittled, so fug off. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > wouldn't say it. When I do fight, I try to fight fair, and keep it > above the belt, nothing personal. Yeah, I feel the same. Vickie > On Mar 27, 2:25 pm, saulgoode <pudbo...@yahoo.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > find that bunny post I wrote like two years ago, bout killing things you > love. Dang. I was thinking about that part just the other day. I think we all feel like that sometimes. Again, I'm sorry, though at least you are ahead in the game of knowing your part in it. Sometimes I feel a bit like I got smacked across the face with a large plank of wood. I turn to DH and say, "Not here, or here so much, but right about here." To which he just rolls his eyes. On a lighter note: Fat guy in a little coat, Fat guy in a little co-woat. Vickie > ..., and work in the woodshop to > make the voices stop ;) ...and even if they won't stop, the table saw is loud enough to make them unintelligible. "Eight out of the ten voices in my head say 'don't shoot'" >> Anyway, I know I don't like being told what to do, because it makes me >> feel like I missed something, and makes me feel like a idget. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >It is clearly a punch in the stomach for him. But dang!, I am right >sometimes! See, the garbage thing was a good example. When I was married, I did just about everything around the house. He would let the garbage pile up and stink and so I'd take it out. When he saw me doing it, he would make a half-hearted "pretend" effort to stand up and say, "I was just getting ready to do that!" So next time, I would ask, "Hey hon, can you take the garbage out" and then I'd be hen-pecking him! IMO, the men who pull out that "don't henpeck me!" line are sometimes just being plain lazy. Well, guess what. I don't like stinking garbage in my kitchen. Now I take it out myself (or ask one of the boys, "Hey hon, can you grab that trash on your next trip out?"). The kitchen doesn't stink and I don't have to worry about protecting someone's fragile ego. Works for me! SignatureLauri in WA > On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:33:10 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > -- > Lauri in WA lol You're awesome Lauri. Vickie >> IMO, the men who pull out that "don't henpeck me!" line are sometimes >> just being plain lazy. Well, guess what. I don't like stinking [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >lol >You're awesome Lauri. Ha! I think it's more likely that I'm too stubborn and inflexible to live with anyone. But thanks anyway. :) SignatureLauri in WA >>> IMO, the men who pull out that "don't henpeck me!" line are sometimes >>> just being plain lazy. Well, guess what. I don't like stinking [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Ha! I think it's more likely that I'm too stubborn and inflexible to >live with anyone. But thanks anyway. :) I don't know. I think you just get to some point in life where it doesn't seem all that worth playing into the crap, if that makes any sense. Doesn't mean that you can't live with someone else, but it does mean that the other person had better have left a lot of his baggage behind, too. It's sort of funny, sitting in your 40s, looking back on relationships in your 20s, and all of this sort of thing that seemed to matter then and just doesn't matter at all now. Take out the damn trash or don't, just don't fuss about it. >It's sort of funny, sitting in your 40s, looking back on relationships >in your 20s, and all of this sort of thing that seemed to matter then >and just doesn't matter at all now. Take out the damn trash or don't, >just don't fuss about it. But see, that's the thing...it DOES matter to me. Why should I work my butt off at a job full time, just like him, but he gets to sit on his a.s and watch TV or play with the kids while I hurry around getting dinner, cleaning it up, hauling out the trash, and doing the laundry? Does that really make any sense at all? So now yeah, I have to do all that stuff anyway, but I don't have that heavy burden of resentment to deal with. SignatureLauri in WA >>It's sort of funny, sitting in your 40s, looking back on relationships >>in your 20s, and all of this sort of thing that seemed to matter then [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >to do all that stuff anyway, but I don't have that heavy burden of >resentment to deal with. Oh, what I meant was not that you wouldn't care about that, but that you get to the point where coddling someone's fragile ego seems like not really part of your job. >Oh, what I meant was not that you wouldn't care about that, but that >you get to the point where coddling someone's fragile ego seems like >not really part of your job. I should have known that you would know what I meant, LOL. :-) The problem, for me, seems to be that I really do want to be in another serious relationship (and maybe even marriage, although that's harder to picture) but there does seem to be a whole lot of fragile-ego-coddling that is required, and I'm honestly not sure that I'm willing to do that because it seems to involve giving up so much of the coddler's personality and desires and goals. So it's something I am on the fence about. SignatureLauri in WA >>Oh, what I meant was not that you wouldn't care about that, but that >>you get to the point where coddling someone's fragile ego seems like [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >of the coddler's personality and desires and goals. So it's something >I am on the fence about. I just think you need to find a grown-up to have a relationship with. Unfortunately, they can be a little hard to find. (I have to say that it was an unsuccessful marriage and learning a LOT from that made me into a grownup, and let me let go of a lot of the silly stuff. I think you either grow and learn, or all those fragile ego characteristics get a lot worse, and then you just repeat the same relationships again and again. We see a lot of that kind of thing here, too.) > On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:13:59 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > live with anyone. But thanks anyway. :) > -- Absolutely. And you don't apologize for it neither! lol Inflexible can be better than wishy-washy. Vickie >>> IMO, the men who pull out that "don't henpeck me!" line are >>> sometimes just being plain lazy. Well, guess what. I don't like [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Ha! I think it's more likely that I'm too stubborn and inflexible to > live with anyone. But thanks anyway. :) They aren't mutually exclusive are they? ;) <runs away very fast...!> > > On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:33:10 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Vickie I guess I'm in the minority in this one. I need to be told by my hub what he/we need(s): stroke it, pick it up at the [pharmacy, dry- cledaner, etc], scallions so he can make dinner, a hug,whatever. He's in charge of the garbage bin under the kitchen sink, because he's the one who doesn't get the sh.t in the bag when he scrapes. So I'll take the garbage out and say, "you need to clean by the garage under the sink" or he'll take it out and I'l say the same, b/c (and this is weird --HE REALLY SEEMS TO NOT REMEMBER TO CLEAN THE STINKY CRAP HE LETS FALL OUTSIDE THE GARBAGE BAG UNDER THE SINK--but somehow, I know I forget similar things of equal importance to him, and he reminds me to do them (stroke me???) lol See ya Fill I thought you might appreciate this Lauri.... the special needs advisor who helps my son sometimes writes "social stories" for him. She also trains other people to write social stories. They're supposed to be very effective for people on the autism spectrum, but she wrote this one for her own husband and it is taped above their kitchen dustbin: ----- "Putting out the rubbish" Rubbish is the waste product of our homes. In the house the rubbish usually goes in the bin. (Picture of rubbish going in to bin) When the bin is full it has to be emptied into another bin outside to be collected by the bin-men. (Pictures of rubbish bag in outdoor bin, and dustbin lorry) Often the bin inside gets full. Usually I don't notice this. (Pictures of full bin, and man staring the other way) Often this bothers my wife and she gets cross and shouts. (Picture of red-faced angry wife) I should try to remember to empty the bin when I am stuffing rubbish on top of a full bin. (Pictures of: rubbish going into bin; knot tied round finger for remembering; bag in outdoor bin.) If I do this I will make my wife happy. (Picture of happy smiling wife, with tick) She may even stop shouting (Picture of angry wife, crossed out) and withholding favours. Remembering to empty a full bin is good for both of us. (Picure of outside bin with bag inside: And picture of kissing couple with love-hearts) ----- Dontcha love it? She also shows it at the end of training sessions where - funnily enough :-) - the female attendees appreciate it a lot. Luckily her husband has a sense of humour :-) Cailleach On Mar 28, 12:10 am, Lauri <laurinos...@nwidespam.netunspam> wrote: > On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:33:10 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > -- > Lauri in WA >..., in the real world of dark beer and hairy-chested >rural-sexuals (Yoop!), That's it! No more open collars. >>..., in the real world of dark beer and hairy-chested >>rural-sexuals (Yoop!), > > That's it! > No more open collars. What is a rural-sexual? And where do I get one? >>>..., in the real world of dark beer and hairy-chested >>>rural-sexuals (Yoop!), [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > What is a rural-sexual? http://tinyurl.com/3c9ryb >And where do I get one? http://www.dayoopers.com/whatwher.html >>>>..., in the real world of dark beer and hairy-chested >>>>rural-sexuals (Yoop!), [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.dayoopers.com/whatwher.html I'm there! >>>>>..., in the real world of dark beer and hairy-chested >>>>>rural-sexuals (Yoop!), [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I'm there! ...and right now,...I'm not. :^( I always miss the good parties. > > > And that I am not worthy of a > > > response. I feel punished and very small at those times. [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > Basically it is now a trigger, if you can understand that. So not > only do I fear the panic, I fear the fear of it. I know it is painful work, but I think finding a therapist that suits you well requires shopping and interviewing therapists. It would be nice if every therapist was a perfect fit for every client, but it doesn't work that way. On Mar 27, 12:03 pm, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > And that I am not worthy of a > > > > response. I feel punished and very small at those times. [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > nice if every therapist was a perfect fit for every client, but it > doesn't work that way.- Hide quoted text - I know this. If I can just get that first interview over and done with I probably could get on a roll. Vickie >> > And that I am not worthy of a >> > response. I feel punished and very small at those times. [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] >Maybe I should "cowgirl up". It is tough is all. But I can get some >gusto when I really want to do something. I think that if going to the therapist is *causing* anxiety, then the therapist is not doing a good job of dealing with the central issues. I mean, you have a panic disorder, beyond whatever else is going on in your life. Your GP and an associated psych person of some sort should be working to manage this, and that doesn't seem to be happening. This isn't your problem to fix alone; anxiety is treatable and manageable. But what you're doing is taking all of the responsibility of treating and managing it on yourself... and that's first of all a lot of burden, and secondly you're not necessarily the most qualified person to do it. What I mean by that is... I can get a long way with certain issues by myself. But I nearly always run up to some point where I need someone else to help me leap the next hurdle. Ask your doctor for a referral to someone who specializes in these sorts of problems. If s/he is useless, many hospitals have ask-a-nurse sorts of referral lines. Some people list by specialization. You may have to have introductory appointments with a few people to find someone you like. > On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:55:59 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > certain issues by myself. But I nearly always run up to some point > where I need someone else to help me leap the next hurdle. I know pretty much all the ins and outs of this disease. Not by formal education, but from trial and error, and reading, and listening. I'm sure there is still a lot to learn, but I know what nutrition I need, what things to avoid, exercise, CBT, meds, mind exercises, breathing, touch stones, meditation, sleep habits, and a few other things. The only real fix-it is time. Getting enough space between attacks to not fear it so. My last was Feb. 24. I have to deal with it as best I can and hopefully I get a long respite, or remission, or whatever you want to call it. At this point I feel like I *am* the only one who can treat and manage this. But you think no? > Ask your doctor for a referral to someone who specializes in these > sorts of problems. If s/he is useless, many hospitals have > ask-a-nurse sorts of referral lines. Some people list by > specialization. You may have to have introductory appointments with a > few people to find someone you like. I probably do need the introductory appointments. And another thing is to find someone as close to home as possible, for many reasons. Vickie >I know pretty much all the ins and outs of this disease. Not by >formal education, but from trial and error, and reading, and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >this. >But you think no? I don't know. Weirdly enough, this is kind of what DH and I fight about sometimes. Not fight exactly, but it's as close as we come. :-) He says what you do... he says, I've had a lifetime of <the things he deals with>, I know my body, I know what works and what doesn't, and the only thing that is going to get me past these things is time and getting used to it. And stuff like that. Pretty much what you say above, although his issues are less well known and thus hard to treat. I say, yes, I do understand that. But I am not so sure that I know everything that there is to know about anything at all. When someone says to me, I am the only person who can do <whatever>, I am innately skeptical. There are a bunch of reasons for this, and probably the biggest one is that I know for me that it is easy to think in a rut. You get used to thinking about a particular problem in a certain sort of a way, and you get so entrenched in that framework that it's hard to even see that you're in it, if that makes sense. Sometimes it is a LOT easier to see other people with clarity than it is to see yourself. And so, ultimately, I do think that things like this fall to you to manage... because you are the only person who lives in your head... but that doesn't mean that there isn't support out there; that doesn't mean that there aren't other people or things that can help. There's a whole world out there, and it's full of smart people. It took DH a decade and a huge battle with the UK health system, a nightmare if there ever was one, to find someone, but I think that he helped enormously. There are a lot more resources here, and they are much more easily accessible. I don't know for sure that someone else can help you more than you can help yourself... but I can't see what harm it could do to try. > On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:47:05 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > head... but that doesn't mean that there isn't support out there; that > doesn't mean that there aren't other people or things that can help. Yes true. It just can be kind of scary to give up one of the pins you have been juggling for so long. And trust that things will not get worse. > There's a whole world out there, and it's full of smart people. It > took DH a decade and a huge battle with the UK health system, a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > can help you more than you can help yourself... but I can't see what > harm it could do to try. The harm is what I just mentioned. I got all my crutches and methods lined up, and though they are not perfect, I don't want them to get worse. I know! A terrible way to think! Pidgeon-holing myself like this. But that is how very terrifying this can be for me. Like Doug (I think) mentioned before. It is about the status quo. It may not be perfect, but it is comfortable. Still, I got guts. I can do this. lol Ahhh hell. Vickie >> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:47:05 -0700 (PDT), Vickie >> [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] >Still, I got guts. I can do this. lol >Ahhh hell. I think you have to ask yourself what you want. What you really want, not what you think you should want, or what fear makes you want. And this is true about both managing this and about your marriage. You can have the status quo. You can keep everything stable... and live a certain kind of life. This is true about your marriage, too, probably. And this wouldn't necessarily be a *wrong* choice, if it is your choice, and it 's what you really want. But life is frighteningly short, and I guess that I've reached a point in it where I see many risks as the price you have to pay to get something better. I spent too many years living a life of, pretty much, quiet desperation. But that's my choice, and I think it was the right one for me. Sometimes things do have to get worse before they can get better. Sometimes they just get better. It's hard to know, and certainly there are no guarantees. > On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:09:28 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > Sometimes they just get better. It's hard to know, and certainly > there are no guarantees. Yeah. V Top posting just to say -- this is a really great post, Nina. I'm a huge fan of consulting others about things I struggle with. They think of things I'd never come up with myself in a million years. Barb >>I know pretty much all the ins and outs of this disease. Not by >>formal education, but from trial and error, and reading, and [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > > Top posting just to say -- this is a really great post, Nina. > > I'm a huge fan of consulting others about things I struggle with. They > think of things I'd never come up with myself in a million years. You can't know what you don't know, eh? Ugh, what a nightmare! I hadn't realised your panics were so bad they even interfered with therapy. That has to be a pretty major impact in your life in itself. I go along with Nina and Doug, though. The right therapist, the right medication maybe, and things could be a lot easier for you. I was thinking that a therapist with a focus on transactional analysis might be quite good on the way your DH pushes your buttons. But the there's the panics - they're probably going to have to help you manage those too, especially if they're coming up in therapy itself. And in the end, a lot comes down to whether you and the therapist can work togther, and that (IMO) has a lot to do with personality. So you might need to lay the whole situation out to a couple of different folk, and see what they make of it, and whether you feel you can work with them. We'll be rooting for you! Cailleach > > > And that I am not worthy of a > > > response. I feel punished and very small at those times. [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > Ugh, what a nightmare! I hadn't realised your panics were so bad they > even interfered with therapy. That has to be a pretty major impact in > your life in itself. I go along with Nina and Doug, though. The right > therapist, the right medication maybe, and things could be a lot > easier for you. Hey, I got it a lot easier than many others with this disease. Besides, I am right as rain when I stay away from triggers. If I get enough space from an attack, I can get the courage to face some, with strong determination on my part. So, I don't get my haircut that often, or go to the movies much. And if anyone wonders about what kind of guy Bill in Co. is - he got me through a dentist appointment once! lol Still, I know I need work so I am hopeful I will get the guts soon. > I was thinking that a therapist with a focus on transactional analysis > might be quite good on the way your DH pushes your buttons. But the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > different folk, and see what they make of it, and whether you feel you > can work with them. We'll be rooting for you! Thanks. I am rooting for myself too. :-) Vickie >> Ugh, what a nightmare! I hadn't realised your panics were so bad they >> even interfered with therapy. That has to be a pretty major impact in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Still, I know I need work so I am hopeful I will get the guts soon. Have you ever taken ativan? That used to get me through dental stuff all the time, and my sister, who was having major hyperventilating panic attacks, swears by it. Also great for insomnia. > On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:40:49 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > all the time, and my sister, who was having major hyperventilating > panic attacks, swears by it. Also great for insomnia.- Hide quoted text - I have Xanax (not XR), which works better for me than Ativan. I am just one of those people who hate to take it. So usually I suffer through, trying to use the other non-med remedies. Sometimes it works, but sometimes, there is no getting around it. I was pretty much taught to tough things out, mind over matter, so it is hard to change my way of thinking. Funny thing is, when I am talking to someone who suffers, I am the first to tell them they should have no guilt about taking something. I mean, I am a serious advocate of do what needs to be done. I suppose I have such a strong conviction and opinion in this for others, that I hope it rubs off on me. Vickie >> <lilliputianbizz...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Ugh, what a nightmare! I hadn't realised your panics were so bad they [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >suppose I have such a strong conviction and opinion in this for >others, that I hope it rubs off on me. Well, I hate taking medication too, so I understand... but on the other hand, it seems like not such a bad thing when it is specifically connected to dealing with particular thing. Xanax drugs the hell out of me, and it's really addictive, and it's probably a damn good thing that you don't much like to take it. You can take Ativan in a lot smaller doses, and it doesn't seem to have that heavy narcotic effect, so it's ok to take just, say, 1/4 to 1/2 mg and go to the dentist. Just takes the edge off. >Xanax drugs the hell out of me, and it's really addictive, and it's >probably a damn good thing that you don't much like to take it. I use Xanax very sparingly, only during the worst episodes. I'm afraid if i use it regularly it won't work when something big happens. I take gabapentin for a neurological disorder and as a side-effect it helps tremendously with anxiety. It could be that relief from the pain is what calms the thoughts, or it could be that the gabapentin works directly on the anxiety. > On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:55:00 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > other hand, it seems like not such a bad thing when it is specifically > connected to dealing with particular thing. I keep trying to tell myself that. :-/ > Xanax drugs the hell out of me, and it's really addictive, and it's > probably a damn good thing that you don't much like to take it. You > can take Ativan in a lot smaller doses, and it doesn't seem to have > that heavy narcotic effect, so it's ok to take just, say, 1/4 to 1/2 > mg and go to the dentist. Just takes the edge off. Interesting. Probably mentioned this before: A year and a half ago, I went to the ER, severe panic attack (I was also sick, sick). The docs pumped me with high doses of Ativan and the nurse was shocked to see me not knocked out. Xanax takes the edge off for me. So either my chemicals are so imbalanced that I need the heavy duty stuff or more likely, it just goes to show some meds work better for others. Oh, and I do know the addictive nature of Xanax. Probably another reason why I am most hesitant to use it. I do know a 25 year Xanax taker and a 10 year from the panic NG. Vickie > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Vickie Could it be that he does hear you? DW has tinnitusm from loud music in our youth. She constantly either appears to ignore me, misunderstand what I am saying, or askes for a repetition. S > > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > our youth. She constantly either appears to ignore me, misunderstand > what I am saying, or askes for a repetition. No, that would be more like me, being in a band for quite awhile. He actually has noise issues, which would indicate his hearing is better than normal. Vickie >> > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? >> > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >He actually has noise issues, which would indicate his hearing is >better than normal. Or his tolerance for anything that intrudes on his universe is less than normal. > On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 17:04:51 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Or his tolerance for anything that intrudes on his universe is less > than normal.- Hide quoted text - Yes. Vickie On Mar 24, 4:49 pm, sandpounder <gopounds...@verizon.net> wrote: > Vickie wrote: > > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > our youth. She constantly either appears to ignore me, misunderstand > what I am saying, or askes for a repetition. No, that would be more like me, being in a band for quite awhile. He actually has noise issues, which would indicate his hearing is better than normal. ------------------------- I've known those with "ultra-sensitive" hearing who had a helluva time filtering out the noise, who then "shut out" anything that wasn't in their face. <shrug> It happens. Does this drag us back to the old "Asperger's" thread? > > Could it be that he does hear you? DW has tinnitusm from loud music in > > our youth. She constantly either appears to ignore me, misunderstand > > what I am saying, or askes for a repetition. > > He actually has noise issues, which would indicate his hearing is > better than normal. I do not think that follows. I think men and women often have very different hearing when it comes to background noise and directionality. I live with my wife amd MIL, kids grown up and moved out. Often we go for drives. While on the interstate I can see my wife's lips move. Then I can see my MIL's lips move. Based on the sequence it is clear to me that they can hear each other. I can not here any sound from either whatsoever. If I weren't looking directly at them I wouldn't see their lips move and I would not be aware they are having a conversation. Yet pull the car over to park, get out of traffic noise, throttle down to idle and I can hear not just every word they say but also that bird chattering on that electric line over there. And it's clear neither my wife nor MIL are speaking any louder or quieter than when they were on the freeway and it's clear they could hear each other the whole time. The same applies when I am facing a parabolic dish of infinite sound elimination. Some people call these devices a "sink" because water drops out of them into a drain. Run the water, point my face toward that focused source of white noise and it would take a fire alarm to pierce the background noise. Forget trying to talk to me when my face is pointed at the parabolic dish of infinite sound elimination because you don't have any speakers loud enough to break though. Yet turn off the water, turn off the air conditioner, open the window, and I can hear a coyote howling over a mile away. Same at a rock concert or other extremely loud place. I see lips moving, so I look to see if anyone sent me a text message. And the folks with moving lips aren't all women just around two thirds. My wife can't easily figure out the background issue. She finds it frustrating but she has learned to shout while in the car. I don't mind if she shouts when the car is quiet. It works either way. I once asked a doctor about hearing loss. He put me in an insulated sound-proof room that's so silent I could hear my own heartbeat then played quiet noises to me. It seemed utterly pointless to me - I'm well aware I can hear just fine in absolute silence, but when does that ever happen except at night out on the deck listening to the coyotes a mile or more away? I want a test that actually detects something meaningful - Filtering out noise to hear signal. Put me in a car on the interstate driving next to an 18-wheeler then play a voice on a speaker and see how high it has to go until I can hear it. So one thing to consider is background noise. If the dish washer is on the full cycle, there's an okay chance he can't hear at all. Reading through this big thread it's clear this is not the case often, but it doesn't take many cases when you are certain he can hear you yet he does not hear you at all for this to become a vicious feedback loop. Reading through the thread I can see i'm missing a lot of context as I only subscribe to ASM yesterday. Mrs Vickie has an anxiety disorder. Mr Vickie is addicted to World of Warcraft. They are in the UK with long medical lines for a band aid. I'm probably missing mor ethan half of the context. But I do know about game addiction problems. Been there, done that, got that teeshirt, ended up moving past it but it is still there in the memory. There's one reason I shouldn't say I have ADHD - The last letter stands for disorder and my life works pretty well. And my wife is one of the most organized people I know. We complement each other in this. But here's something about ADHD folks - Laser intense focus. If I'm playing my computer game people can wander around talking to me all they like. They might even conclude I heard them. I didn't even see them in my peripheral vision. I was in focus mode and that was that. If you want to talk to me while I am in focus mode the only way to do that is to interupt me out of focus mode, get me through several seconds of disorientation to restore attention, then start talking over again. Maybe my commentary on difference in hearing doesn't help, but this one should. Do NOT assume he heard you if you have any reason to think he's in focus mode. Focus mode does not work like that. Focus mode is focused and that includes filtering out everything else. Seriously to the extent that if you interupt him it is likely he'll need to take a piss before he can hear you because he was unaware he had to go. Urine is not a part of focus mode. Game addiction tends to be by people subject to this sort of focus mode. > > > Could it be that he does hear you? DW has tinnitusm from loud music in > > > our youth. She constantly either appears to ignore me, misunderstand [quoted text clipped - 94 lines] > Game addiction tends to be by people subject to this sort of > focus mode. Thanks for the insightful post. I hope you stick around. If true, that DH has this focus mode, it would explain why for the years he played WOW non stop, I felt invisible, which interestingly enough was the title of my first post. Problem is he picks and chooses what he will hear or not. Because believe you me, if playing WOW, and the kids are being loud or running by, here comes the bellows. If I ask a question, and he isn't, uh, fond of it, he just figures he won't answer. I mean there are all the signs he hears me, I just don't need to be responded to a lot. And that feels very hurtful. It really does feel like some kind of punishment. Vickie PS: You have most of the details right in our story, except we are in NoCal USA. > If true, that DH has this focus mode, it would explain why for the > years he played WOW non stop, I felt invisible, which interestingly > enough was the title of my first post. You tend to be quiet? > Problem is he picks and chooses what he will hear or not. Because > believe you me, if playing WOW, and the kids are being loud or running > by, here comes the bellows. Now you know the volume level it takes to interupt his focus mode. Or what sort of vibrations in the floor do it. Bellowing because his game is interupted is unacceptable. I hope he knows that at least intellectually. Game addiction sure caused my problems for a year of my marriage. It helped break up the older daughter's first marriage as well. Just because it doesn't include booze doesn't mean it's okay. > If I ask a question, and he isn't, uh, fond of it, he just figures he > won't answer. > I mean there are all the signs he hears me, I just don't need to be > responded to a lot. And that feels very hurtful. One of the greatest bits of wisdom I learned from my father - God gave us two ears and a brain in between. One ear is for in, the other for out. The brain is to decide what's supposed to stick. I wish I could live up to this. Doesn't look like his dad taught him such wisdom but don't neglect focus mode. Just because you're sure he heard doesn't mean he did. >Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? >Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? > >Do they think things are none of your business? > >Do they think what was said was too stupid for a reply? Because they are angry and want you to know it. Because they don't care. Because if they pretend they don't hear you, they won't have to get up off their butt and <insert task>. Because they want to punish you for some imagined sin. At least that's why my ex would ignore me. SignatureLauri in WA > On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 09:10:35 -0700 (PDT), Vickie > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > you for some imagined sin. At least that's why my ex would ignore me. > -- That is what I figured. I am always looking for my part in it. Always. And I just couldn't find it. This, whether right or wrong, is exactly how it feels. He came home and just bellowed, and I shook like a leaf on the tree. I think I am in trouble. Not with him but what I have evolved into. V > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Vickie I know a lot of people chimed in on this, but being on the receiving end of this, I have to respond on my take. When you talk to him, do you actually address him first to get his attention or do just make the request? When I was in the miltary, I worked in an open area with literally dozen of people around me and phone ringing. I was also a programmer and I had to code in this environment. I can tell you right now that use to suck sooooo bad. If I keep "in tune" to people just talking around me, I would have never gotten anything done. So when people aren't talking to me, I really just tune them out. I could have someone talking on the phone 2 feet from me and I would not hear their phone conversation. It has nothing to do with me, so I tune it out. Even now, I work in a small office with three other people. I have to wear headphones sometime to block their personal phone call out of my head. One guy calls his wife like 4 or 5 times a day and talks baby talk to her, I'm not making this up! Another co-worker is on the phone with her girlfriends talking about her upcoming marriage. I didn't know there was so many shades of white. I have to drown that crap out. My wife had a real hard time with that. She would walk in a room while I was reading and just start talking or asking me something. I'd hear the tail end of it and ask hear to repeat what she said and she would really get annoyed. Sometime I'm just literally so engaged in a TV show or my laptop, I just don't hear her. One of my favorite lines from a TV show called "Ugly Betty". Betty is talking to Amanda and Amanda says," I hear you talking and see you looking my way, but I'm just not paying attention." Make matter worse, sometime shes walking in the room talking and she is on her mobile phone, so half the time I dont know if she is talking to me or someone else. I would constantly tell her, please, if you just walk in the room and you want my attention, address me, let me know you are asking me a question. Her answer would be, its just me and you in this house, why do I need to address you? Vickie, I don't know what type of work environment your husband has or his job, but if it is having to be around loads of people and he has to have privacy to concentrate, maybe it is hard for him to switch of the work mode of tuning people out. Maybe you need to address him, call him by name and wait for him to acknowledge you, then ask the question. Just a thought. EB > Vickie, I don't know what type of work environment your husband has or his > job, but if it is having to be around loads of people and he has to have [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Just a thought. What EB said!! This is very true for me, particularly because I work at home, and often the hours between worktime and family time get blurred. If I'm simply playing on ASM, I'm easily interruptable. If I'm working on ad copy or a report for my boss, I'm not. I actually have this issue more with my kids than my DH, because they come home every day after school during my busiest work hours. They'll come in to ask me if they can sleep over a friends house on the weekend or some other request and I am not listening. They know enough not to barge in when I'm on a call, but it's less clear if I'm working on a project that needs concentration, or having an IM convo with a colleague. I will tell them please ask me later when I can give my full attention to your request. I've learned the hard way not to just say Yes, when I haven't actually heard what they've asked! jen > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? Sounds like NADD to me. It was you who posted the Nerd Attention Deficit Disorder link, wasn't it? > Do they think things are none of your business? > > Do they think what was said was too stupid for a reply? Well maybe, who knows, but I'd put my money on NADD :-) And whatever it is, don't let it make you feel bad about yourself, OK? Cailleach > > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > And whatever it is, don't let it make you feel bad about yourself, OK? I am doing my best not to. Vickie > > > Why would a spouse pretend they don't hear you? > > > Constantly make you repeat things you say or ask? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Well good on you for doing that! I know it can't be easy. I don't know if you *can* change his behaviour or attitude, because I'm not sure if it's much about you at all. On the one hand. he's clearly got a whole bunch of issues of his own; and on the other hand, his behaviour is seriously getting on your nerves. That's no easy situation to manage. So just you keep a high priority on taking care of yourself, not getting overloaded, and having bits of fun and relaxation that don't involve him, Cailleach |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2010 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.