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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / April 2008Calculators (was "shortage" of eligible bachelors)
"YooperBoyka <cjdont@likeno.spam>" wrote: > I had Darren's remarks about Morse Code in mind actually, but doesn't > the above go right along with something like the loss of actual > mathematics skills after the use of calculators became widespread? > Who memorizes multiplication tables anymore? You might like this short story by Isaac Asimov: http://downlode.org/Etext/power.html Darren Provine ! kilroy@elvis.rowan.edu ! http://www.rowan.edu/~kilroy "Suppose that we are wise enough to learn and know and yet not wise enough to control our learning and knoweldge, so that we use it to destroy ourselves? Even if that is so, knowledge remains better than ignorance. It is better to know even if the knowledge endures only for the moment that comes before destruction than to gain eternal life at the price of a dull and swinish lack of comprehension of a universe that swirls unseen before us in all its wonder. That was the choice of Achilles, and it is mine, too." -- Isaac Asimov > "YooperBoyka <cjdont@likeno.spam>" wrote: >> I had Darren's remarks about Morse Code in mind actually, but doesn't [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://downlode.org/Etext/power.html Sweet. > Darren Provine ! kilroy@elvis.rowan.edu ! http://www.rowan.edu/~kilroy > "Suppose that we are wise enough to learn and know and yet not wise [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > universe that swirls unseen before us in all its wonder. That was > the choice of Achilles, and it is mine, too." -- Isaac Asimov > "YooperBoyka <cjdont@likeno.spam>" wrote: >> I had Darren's remarks about Morse Code in mind actually, but doesn't [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://downlode.org/Etext/power.html You've just made me wander off and revise how to find square roots by hand. (I like the Babylonian method best.) Thanks, Darren! >> "YooperBoyka <cjdont@likeno.spam>" wrote: >>> I had Darren's remarks about Morse Code in mind actually, but doesn't [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > hand. > (I like the Babylonian method best.) Thanks, Darren! Well, that might be going a bit too far. :-) And again, Morse Code is NOT useless, despite what some may think. > > "YooperBoyka <cjdont@likeno.spam>" wrote: > >> I had Darren's remarks about Morse Code in mind actually, but doesn't [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > You've just made me wander off and revise how to find square roots by hand. > (I like the Babylonian method best.) Thanks, Darren! I'm a big fan of Newton's method, myself! >>> "YooperBoyka <cjdont@likeno.spam>" wrote: >>>> I had Darren's remarks about Morse Code in mind actually, but [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I'm a big fan of Newton's method, myself! Ha! Yes, I'd probably guess that, but I don't need all the rest of what he does so that small bit is quite enough for me. I have my old slide rule and a copy of "Eton's Statistcal & Maths Tables" (no doubt you have an equivalent) from when I was in high school so I could use log tables to find roots easily enough but I wonder who bothers with that now we have calculators? I was thinking about this thread as I was gardening this afternoon and how important our libraries would become in the event of a descent into a dark age, but not, I hope, as a fuel source! We're all so used to storing our collective knowledge outside our skulls nowadays except for the bits we use often or that refuse to be lost from our memories. It would be enormously frustrating to know the information we neded to build a motor for a generator, say, or an old fashioned water pump or a foot-treadle loom, was out there somewhere but not anywhere close enough to be useful. People could re-invent many things just knowing they had already existed but that would only take them so far. > >>> "YooperBoyka <cjd...@likeno.spam>" wrote: > >>>> I had Darren's remarks about Morse Code in mind actually, but [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Interesting topic sway. I do a lot of programming, esp. wrapped around statistics and trig/ vector cal, and have found that most of the time it's easier for me to re-invent the algorithms rather than use what's already out there. In fact, I have several algos that I've put up against both industry standards and against internal groups, and have come out ahead of them. Most of the guys who invent stuff aren't any smarter than you -- they just thought about it longer. And none of them were 100% correct. I don't read much about my industry, or the algos, because I want to think freely and not be constrained by the pre-conceived notions of someone's grad student. So, re-inventing stuff is not necessarily a bad thing. It's called "innovation," and it's the lack of innovation that now finds us in many of our jams, esp. with fuel/transportation, and with overall energy consumption. Why are we still burning stuff for heat, like a collective society of cavemen? Who the hell uses combustion piston engines, that's so 1900! The only reason we have computers is because someone challenged the switch/gear model for machinery. We now have switching machines with ~no moving parts~! THAT'S innovation, and it came only when engineers completely disregarded everyone who went before them for thousands and thousands of years. Anyway, we need more re-invention, not less. Lots more. Probably a ton of books on a ton of topics that we could burn and re-invent, maybe get it right this time, yknow. We should begin by burning everything we know about the combustion piston engine, and start from scratch -- that one's fun, but it didn't work. It's a musket-model car we just can't move beyond. Oh, how complacency is a disease! - Saul > > >>> "YooperBoyka <cjd...@likeno.spam>" wrote: > > >>>> I had Darren's remarks about Morse Code in mind actually, but [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > collective society of cavemen? Who the hell uses combustion piston > engines, that's so 1900! I disagree somewhat with your premise. I can't argue about your field, and I agree that reinvention can be a good thing. But in my field people invent new algorithms all the time, and the ones who do that are (mostly) people who are knowledgeable about the strengths and weaknesses of the old algorithms. There are occasional exceptions of course, but there are many modern ways of doing things which are fiendishly clever and which our predecessors 100 years back wouldn't have been able to do. What they _could_ do now mostly seems easy to us. Not because we are smarter, but because we benefit from the work they did. In other words, I think most innovation can be described with Newton's slightly over-modest dictum: "If I have seen further it is by standing on ye shoulders of Giants." > The only reason we have computers is because someone challenged the > switch/gear model for machinery. I'm not sure who you have in mind for the "someone" since a lot of people contributed to the development of digital computers (you might mean Atanasoff), but most of there were people who _did_ have knowledge about the switch/gear model for machinery! If we hadn't had switch/gear machinery, I doubt we would have gotten vacuum tubes. And without vacuum tubes we may not have gotten transistors. In particular, not only was Atanasoff a trained physicist, but he had extensive experience with existing mechanical calculating devices. > We now have switching machines with > ~no moving parts~! THAT'S innovation, and it came only when engineers [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > that one's fun, but it didn't work. It's a musket-model car we just > can't move beyond. I would call what you are asking for "innovation" not reinvention, by the way. And I agree more innovation is good. It's hard because it is creative and creativity is not common, and generally not fostered by social institutions which tend to be conservative. But real innovation usually (as in Atanasoff's case) requires not just creativity, but a great deal of knowledge and training and properly focussed intelligence. > Oh, how complacency is a disease! Sure, but so is ignorance! On Apr 24, 12:49 pm, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >>> "YooperBoyka <cjd...@likeno.spam>" wrote: > > > >>>> I had Darren's remarks about Morse Code in mind actually, but [quoted text clipped - 105 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Never said these guys weren't trained, just said they didn't keep doing the same thing as their predecessors -- they challenged the models. Newton himself didn't like the math of the day -- basic arithmetic -- and so reinvented something we'd been using for thousands of years without question. Calculus. We did the same thing recently with hex and binomial math. - Saul > I was thinking about this thread as I was gardening this afternoon and > how important our libraries would become in the event of a descent into > a dark age, but not, I hope, as a fuel source! I'll take a moment to recommend _Earth Abides_, by George R. Stewart. > It would be enormously frustrating to know the information we neded to > build a motor for a generator, say, or an old fashioned water pump or > a foot-treadle loom, was out there somewhere but not anywhere close > enough to be useful. The Amish will take over, mark my words. They've been preparing for years! Darren Provine ! kilroy@elvis.rowan.edu ! http://www.rowan.edu/~kilroy "Our earth is degenerate in these latter days, bribery and corruption are common, children no longer obey their parents and the end of the world is evidently approaching." -- Archimedes, 210 B.C. >> I was thinking about this thread as I was gardening this afternoon >> and how important our libraries would become in the event of a >> descent into a dark age, but not, I hope, as a fuel source! > > I'll take a moment to recommend _Earth Abides_, by George R. Stewart. I haven't read that, so I'll put it on my list. >> It would be enormously frustrating to know the information we neded >> to build a motor for a generator, say, or an old fashioned water [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The Amish will take over, mark my words. They've been preparing for > years! Ha! >> I was thinking about this thread as I was gardening this afternoon >> and how important our libraries would become in the event of a >> descent into a dark age, but not, I hope, as a fuel source! > > I'll take a moment to recommend _Earth Abides_, by George R. Stewart. Loved it. Then again, in grade seven I loved "Level Seven" too. >> It would be enormously frustrating to know the information we neded >> to build a motor for a generator, say, or an old fashioned water [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The Amish will take over, mark my words. They've been preparing for > years! ...or those of us carrying a "Machinery's Handbook". > Darren Provine ! kilroy@elvis.rowan.edu ! http://www.rowan.edu/~kilroy > "Our earth is degenerate in these latter days, bribery and corruption > are common, children no longer obey their parents and the end of the > world is evidently approaching." -- Archimedes, 210 B.C. >>I was thinking about this thread as I was gardening this afternoon and >>how important our libraries would become in the event of a descent into [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > are common, children no longer obey their parents and the end of the > world is evidently approaching." -- Archimedes, 210 B.C. "You be careful out among those english" >>> I was thinking about this thread as I was gardening this afternoon and >>> how important our libraries would become in the event of a descent into [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > "You be careful out among those english" Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah... |
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