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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / May 2008Identity
Hi, I've not posted for a while as someone suggested it may be good to take a break. Something happened to my marriage; my husband stopped his meds. It's very hard to speak to an unmedicated mentally ill person with expectations of responsibility and common sense. But enough about him; here is what has happened to me, after being alone for some time. To my frank amazement, I am beginning to regain long lost confidence and ability to talk to people and ask for things without feeling like Manuel in "Fawlty Towers". It must have been years of abuse and being put down that changed my character. Even now, when we do get together for short periods of time, I notice anew how fond he is of the "one-upmanship" on just about anything anybody says, even if it is blatantly true. He likes to put people down. It's a form of psychopathic aggression and egotism which at first dazzles with brilliance but after further insight reveals a mean inherited temperament. Rarely does he have a good word to say. Rarely does he have the ability to see the beauty or goodness in the world or enjoy it. It's pathetic. If someone makes a witty remark or suggests a good idea in a conversation, his typical response is to top it with his own brilliance. That can be pretty eroding in a close relationship. So, to my surpise the less I converse with him, the better I become as a self-respecting person. The sad thing is, that I, like others had the highest esteem for him and depended on him. I also invested decades of emotional encouragement and cheerleading for him, which I now see as having been a colossal waste of my life. One of his bossom buddies informed me that the problem was that he was not happy with the marriage. The fact is he is not happy with life or himself, and that as confided by a closer relation, this goes back to his childhood. I feel sorry for him. Perhaps his most recent sign of self-awareness and growth was his remark: don't expect too much from me. Still, it is the weak-kneed who need the greatest support. Fortunately for me, he has now found some new crutches. Erin > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > own > brilliance. That can be pretty eroding in a close relationship. This is the fairly close example of what my husband is. Sometimes I don't know how much more I can take. > So, to my surpise the less I converse with him, > the better I become as a self-respecting person. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > support. Fortunately for me, he has now found some > new crutches. I like this post Erin. Not what you have had to realize, of course. I wish for your sake the outcome had came out differently. It is like you finally understand your part in it, putting him on that pedestal and being his biggest fan and caretaker winds up being all for not. Like I have said before, it is a shame you get shoved in the corner and constantly put down for your love and caring. It's a bitch, isn't it. Put him in his place, the spot behind your own needs. If you can. Vickie > > Hi, > > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > Vickie Thanks Vickie. I would rather not have seen it this way, but it is like a Crappy Copernican Revolution. It is often said that you should not expect to be able to change a character. There are two schools of thought on temperament and personality-- one is the nurture school and the other is heredity. I am strongly inclined towards that of heredity. You can see it even in animals. Nonetheless, i am willing to make him as happy as i can, but given this new perspective, i am putting limits on self-sacrifice. It hasn't worked, except for some practical advice and directions i gave, which was to our mutual advantage. The rest is up to him. Erin > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > Erin Very insightful post, Erin. It looks like you have seen the light here, and have really moved forward, which is not an easy thing to do. >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > It looks like you have seen the light here, and have really moved forward, > which is not an easy thing to do. I stand corrected. Looks like we both could use a little more light. :-) On May 21, 4:13 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > I stand corrected. Looks like we both could use a little more light. > :-) Light is good. Sunshine and moonbeams, and if it's winter take the weak flourescents at the local YMCA. If you go into the pool and swim, you might convince yourself that you're in...well, not a tropical island but, perhaps Arkansas. Also just the being around people is good. Healthy people and also those who want to get healthier. (Before sme of you yak, I LIKE Arkansas--I'm thinking only of swimming outisde in late Oct or early May) What is hardest is seeing things new, through another's eyes, and then moving slowly to get well. I can't remember who said what, but someone talked about weakly moving forward: crawling, another talked about crutches. I don't know, Erin, but I do remember days where forward movement, if there was any, could only have been measured by the bruised knees and scrapes from crawling then falling (and this in my 30s). There were about three life-saving crutches (thanks Richard, Helen, and sons). I also do remember this was the second time I had to get thru a hard enough situation--the first was more different than easier--and that, b.c I had got thru the first, I knew I could dig deep and keep moving forward. I could, did, and still do, tho lately blessed in that nothing's demanded so much from me. Makes us think how lucky we are, doesn't it? Man, imagine being in Myanmar or Beirut or Darfur right now. We would not even be able to think about "divorce." It's almost like a luxury, even as it's pure hell to go thru. I don't get it. All these different worlds co- existing, with so little "getting it." Thinking and honoring many who have lived for freedom and liberty this (US Memorial Day) weekend, feeling distanced from those who represent the US on the global (esp. corporate) scale, and blissfully free of (job) fautresponsibility, Fill > On May 21, 4:13 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > > Fill I appreciate your message Fill; i have said similar things about the relative misery in the world; the difference is that i am willing to be grateful and appreciate the privileges, advantages and good life we have. Some people would die and do die in crowded boats weathering rough seas to have just some of the happiness and wealth that we do. Mr. Humble Socialist seems to want more all of a sudden; that's one of his postures that really pisses me off. Erin >> On May 21, 4:13 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > > Erin Who is Mr. Humble Socialist? > >> On May 21, 4:13 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> > >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] > > Who is Mr. Humble Socialist? Someone who used to preach about socialism and how evil American Capitalism is, but how now discovered his right to the pursuit of happiness and spending tons of money on getting it. Erin Erin, I see you putting a lot of energy into understanding your husband. But I think you are wrong abut the 'dire consequences' if you stopped. You are hanging on to something harmful to you, and you should be WAY more concerned with yourself, and with figuring out how you came to be 'OK' with something that hurts you. You seem to be a very pragmatic lady. So apply that pragmatism to YOURSELF, Erin! Walk yourself through the logical steps.... make a list of the pros and cons of your current approach. I hate to be this tough on you, but maybe you LIKE being a martyr? Think back to when you were little, or adolescent. Think of your dreams. And then... get mad! Stop extending your wonderful skill of 'analysis' to the person who is hurting you, Erin! Extend it to yourself, instead! I am rooting for you, but I am also pretty aggravated with you. It stinks when someone smart shares a problem, then immediately ducks their head back in the sand. Kep your head up, and focus on YOU, Erin!!!!!!! > Erin, I see you putting a lot of energy into understanding your > husband. But I think you are wrong abut the 'dire consequences' if you [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > ducks their head back in the sand. > Kep your head up, and focus on YOU, Erin!!!!!!! You hit the nail right on the head! Erin is spending an awful lot of energy trying to figure out why her husband is such an a.shole, when she should work on healing herself. Damage is done, now she need to start figuring out how to shield herself from as much damage as possible from this toxic relationship she has with her husband. Whether it be cutting him off or telling him enough is enough. I'm too aggravated with her post, because I was in the somewhat of the same situatation as her. My wife walked out on me without any thoughts on healing our marriage. There was no abuse, no financial problems, no infidelity. She just said there was no more feeling of love. So instead of torturing myself trying to understand why she was feeling the way she was feeling, I let her go. Life is too freaking short. Yeah, it sucked, sucked like you never would believe, but 6 months later. I'm happy, she's happy and life goes on. Erin been dealing with this for over 2 years?!?!? It's really is time to let it go. EB > > Erin, I see you putting a lot of energy into understanding your > > husband. But I think you are wrong abut the 'dire consequences' if you [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > EB Thanks for your encouragement to take care of my own needs EB. I am sorry about the thoughtless and callous approach of your wife. I imagine your marriage was not so long -- ours close to 30 years - a lifetime and a very good marriage at that. So, it's hard. I know he is aware of possibly losing something very dear and irreplacable, but i think he is in love and degrades the qualities of our own relationship to prop up his. However, he denies all that and says she is just a very close friend. I hope counselling helps because i am never sure if i am right or wrong, but i am sure that i have been hurt. He says, anything hurts me because i am delusional. Erin > > > Erin, I see you putting a lot of energy into understanding your > > > husband. But I think you are wrong abut the 'dire consequences' if you [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Erin- Hide quoted text - Fifteen years. Not as long as yours, but longer than most. I hope counseling works for you too, because actions speak louder than words. I have a best friend of over 25 years, but I don't maintain a place for him to visit. I personally think he is a cruel and nasty piece of work. You don't tell your partner of 30 years that you have found a "soulmate" of the opposite sex. And all the "mental" problems in the world doesn't excuse the fact that he and his "soulmate" are treating you like sh.t. If you had told me these problems just started happening, I'd be more sympathatic. However, you lived this horror over two years. Time to break out of this circle. Stay strong and stay the course. EB > > > > Erin, I see you putting a lot of energy into understanding your > > > > husband. But I think you are wrong abut the 'dire consequences' if you [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > > EB That's how i feel too, barring such hidden variables as terminal illness in either her or him that i do not know about for example. I don't have much respect for either of them, and though he plans to come back in a year (don't know why he puts it at a year) I wonder if my respect for him will return or whether i will have to redefine myself, my values, and my feelings in order to be his live-in-wife again. Erin > > > > > Erin, I see you putting a lot of energy into understanding your > > > > > husband. But I think you are wrong abut the 'dire consequences' if you [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > Erin Scientology: Of course the whole thing makes sense if he has joined Scientology. He *has* been going into a trance since this OW situation (which i thought was hepatic disease maybe), and despite his proclamation that he is taking his fattening meds, is losing a LOT of weight, even though i make healthy meals for him. He also get furious if i interfere with his necessity to be or socialize with his *friends*. Scientology practices trance induction to make the payer adhere loyally to the religion. It encourage separation from the family or spouse or anyone who has objections to Scientology. Trance induction is part of the Auditing lessons from what i read on FACTNET. Erin > > > > > > Erin, I see you putting a lot of energy into understanding your > > > > > > husband. But I think you are wrong abut the 'dire consequences' if you [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > > Erin > > > > > > Erin, I see you putting a lot of energy into understanding your > > > > > > husband. But I think you are wrong abut the 'dire consequences' if you [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I think you're on to something here... I really do. > > > > > > > Erin, I see you putting a lot of energy into understanding your > > > > > > > husband. But I think you are wrong abut the 'dire consequences' if you [quoted text clipped - 97 lines] > > I think you're on to something here... I really do. In any case, i'm so sad and tired, that i no longer care about the cause-- only the effect this has on me. I think that's progress. Scientology, med withdrawal, infatuation, psychopathic conman, mid-life crisis.... it doesn't matter to me that much anymore, because the damage is done. tx Erin "Who knows, maybe I am being delusionally jealous. I am so damn insecure i don't know what's what." Of course you are jealous.... who wouldn't be, in this situation? Your husband is sharing himself with another woman, cutting you off and disregarding your emotions. Jealous, yes... delusional, no. No doubt he is a great guy in some ways, but his choices are hurting you and making you 'so damn insecure'. He is not honoring his vows to you. You are so valiant in your own effort not to dishonor your vows to him. As angry and hurt as you are feeling, you are clear about loving him and wanting to do the best for him and your marriage. But maybe the best thing for your marriage is to STOP allowing it to degrade further by being accommodating and kind to him when he trashes your feelings. God, I'm about to be so annoying... my mom always did/does this to me... suggesting ways to knock yourself into a different pattern or mindset. How about finding another target for all that love you feel? Or transferring your feeling of wanting to help/heal onto someone or something more receptive? Maybe volunteer work... it really does do wonders for you when you're feeling sad and alone. Or borrowing some kids (neices, nephews) and taking them out to have simple fun. Exercise...especially long walks (even better with a dog)...is rejuvenating. I know these are all Pollyanna-sounding suggestions, and you are probably too tired to be receptive to them. But it's these little changes in routine that help edge people out of emotional sink-holes. Erin, in all of these posts, you show such a huge capacity for compassion. Also endurance. It's sad to see a good person being treated badly.... no wonder you are tired. So be tired, scared and sad. Grieve!!! As you say, the damage is done. Grieve for what has been damaged. Google 'grief', and I think you will see many things ring true with how you feel right now. You'll be stronger if you face it. It doesn't mean letting go of your love for your husband... who could expect you to do that? You said,"It doesn't matter anymore....", and that's a lie. That's detachment. Don't detach from your feelings... it's harmful to your heart and spirit. Instead, grieve for what has been taken from you. Jeez, I'm bossy. ((( HUG ))) Amy > "Who knows, maybe I am being delusionally jealous. I am so damn > insecure i don't know what's what." [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Amy Thank you for the encouraging suggestions Amy and the empathy in the situation as i describe it. I am sure this is not easy for him too. And I know that what he would like most is for me to approve of his very close ties and affection for his co-worker and friend. He did tell me they were sexually attracted but it has turned into love, though not the same love as..... blah blah. Anyway, I cannot give my approval so he will have to enjoy her company all by himself. Everything has its price. And as for loving him, i think it's fading fast, though we are good friends. It's a good idea that I should redirect my emotional energy towards people and situations more receptive. I am doing that but could do more. I think it's a good idea. I do need some time for recovery. However, stopping my emotional support of his conflict might be good for me. The problem is that he gets angry if I don't approve of his rights. Maybe i should ignore that crap. Thanks for your post. Erin omitted: street drug addiction, supply consequences and symptoms; > Life is too freaking short. Yeah, it sucked, sucked like you never > would believe, but 6 months later. I'm happy, she's happy and life > goes on. Erin been dealing with this for over 2 years?!?!? > It's really is time to let it go. I'm not sure there are many people as practical as you. 2 years seems like a very short time to me, when you are talking about giving up on a marriage. Then again, neither you nor Erin have kids to consider. Xorra > Erin, I see you putting a lot of energy into understanding your > husband. But I think you are wrong abut the 'dire consequences' if you [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > ducks their head back in the sand. > Kep your head up, and focus on YOU, Erin!!!!!!! I know mamaof4boys, But i am really scared of this. He keeps insisting that this best friend of his life IS just a friend, and although his has love for her it is not on the same level, blah blah ..... All i know is i am getting chest pains all the time and have constant anxiety. He just won't give her up, except as a concilliation to his psychologist, he will no longer speak to her about personal matters concerning me. But they will remain close friends and visit each other etc. This makes me jealous and insecure. But he thinks that is MY problem. Fortunately, we are seeing a marriage counsellor. Who knows, maybe I am being delusionally jealous. I am so damn insecure i don't know what's what. Erin Your husband is deeply depressed, and you are surprised that he finds no joy in life? It sounds like you're moving on finally. Xorra zor...@comcast.net wrote: > Your husband is deeply depressed, and you are surprised that he finds > no joy in life? Well actually, i am not at all surprised. I have just been nagging for 30 years that he should see a psychiatrist and not a GP for major depression. This advice has backfired on me and provoked abuse. I give up. > It sounds like you're moving on finally. Yes. I am hoping he gets help elsewhere, as he does ask for mine but rejects it if he doesn't like it, i.e. see a psychiatrist who knows psychopharmacology very well. He does not really believe in medication despite suicide attempts when coming off the drugs. I can't help him with that attitude; maybe his counsellor can. Erin > zor...@comcast.net wrote: > > Your husband is deeply depressed, and you are surprised that he finds [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Erin Please dump Michael, that piece of unstable piece of cheating trash, and come visit me. I really like you, Erin. Please stop worrying about him, it just isn't worth it. > > zor...@comcast.net wrote: > > > Your husband is deeply depressed, and you are surprised that he finds [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Please stop worrying about him, it just isn't worth it. You're very kind.:-) More anguish coming up tonight. We are seeing a counsellor to find out if it isn't infact OK for him to have relations with his soulmate, and be married at the same time. D'oh! Of course the answer to that question depends much on the equivocation of words. Wish me luck, feel like puking and having chest tightness again. Two ****** years of anxiety over this crap. Erin >>> zor...@comcast.net wrote: >>>> Your husband is deeply depressed, and you are surprised that he [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Erin It is not some counselor's place to tell you if it is Ok. That is YOUR place. Wife. > >>> zor...@comcast.net wrote: > >>>> Your husband is deeply depressed, and you are surprised that he [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > It is not some counselor's place to tell you if it is Ok. That is YOUR > place. Wife. Maybe he wants to see if it's OK; i.e. approval. I suspect he is not taking his medication. He has all the symptoms of depression. Perhaps he feels that with *her* he does not need medications as he told me that the reason he has clinical depression is because of me. Problem is he takes these cruel remarks back. It's a mess. Erin > > > zor...@comcast.net wrote: > > > > Your husband is deeply depressed, and you are surprised that he finds [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > OK for him to have relations with his soulmate, and be > married at the same time. D'oh! How is the counselor going to help with this? It is OK with him. It is not OK with you. Look - normally I think seeing a good counselor is a good idea. But in your case, I don't think you need couples therapy so much as you need to learn what you want and you need to pursue that. > > > > zor...@comcast.net wrote: > > > > > Your husband is deeply depressed, and you are surprised that he finds [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > in your case, I don't think you need couples therapy so much as you > need to learn what you want and you need to pursue that. I think the counsellor might give options and interpretations. I don't look forward to it at all, as i have the same level of education as this one and a Psych. degree on top. What do I want? I would like him to be honest and to act on that. I would also like him to respect as he used to and not find all these faults all of a sudden but absolutely no fault with his new soulmate. But that may require a return to rationality. I predict 3 possible outcomes: 1. Separation - that is probably the best as it allows him to have her visit and sleep there whenever they want. Also, mutual support between us remains practical and not traumatic. 2. He gets over her and returns to his marital life. I don't see it unless the problem is medical. 3. Divorce -- she is finally available to him and they get the opportunity to marry or live together, in which case he serves me a divorce request. Erin > > > > > zor...@comcast.net wrote: > > > > > > Your husband is deeply depressed, and you are surprised that he finds [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > I don't look forward to it at all, as i have the same level > of education as this one and a Psych. degree on top. Why should that matter? > What do I want? I would like him to be honest and to act > on that. I would also like him to respect as he used to and > not find all these faults all of a sudden but absolutely no > fault with his new soulmate. But that may require a return > to rationality. Wrong answer. You need to be focusing on what _you_ can do, not on what you want other people to do. Wanting your husband to change isn't useful. You can want to leave him. You can want to change yourself. You can want to set enforcable limits on what behavior you accept from him. You can want to find other things to center your life around besides your relationship with your husband. > I predict 3 possible outcomes: > > 1. Separation - that is probably the best as it allows > him to have her visit and sleep there whenever they want. > Also, mutual support between us remains practical and > not traumatic. And how is this good for you? You seem tormented by this state of being half in his life and half out of his life. You also seem to expect a level of support from him that he is simply not likely to provide if he is involved with another woman. > 2. He gets over her and returns to his marital life. > I don't see it unless the problem is medical. > > 3. Divorce -- she is finally available to him and they > get the opportunity to marry or live together, in which case he > serves me a divorce request. > > What do I want? I would like him to be honest and to act > > on that. I would also like him to respect as he used to and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > You can want to find other things to center your life around besides > your relationship with your husband. But wanting to enforce limits -- which i have tried -- is trying to change his behaviour, as well as following his physician's advice. As for my life, i am actually doing very well -- i am taking exercise classes, socializing with friends and families, taking classes. I am even cooking for him and helping him because he is ill. I have sadness and uncertainty all the time, but i fight it. So, i am doing as well as can be expected. > > I predict 3 possible outcomes: > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > expect a level of support from him that he is simply not likely to > provide if he is involved with another woman. He helps me this way, and i help him. A complete break will have dire consequences for both of us, and there are many complications i won't go into. Stress is one of them which can kill him or me. It is the kindest option for all involved, and i mean all. Erin > > > What do I want? I would like him to be honest and to act > > > on that. I would also like him to respect as he used to and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > change his > behaviour, No, it isn't. It is reacting to his behavior in order to protect yourself. You can't control or change his behavior. If he behaves in a way that is unacceptable to you, you can keep him away from you, or find other ways to insulate yourself from him. You are looking for some magic tool to get him to be the person you want him to be. That way lies only frustration. > > > > What do I want? I would like him to be honest and to act > > > > on that. I would also like him to respect as he used to and [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > You are looking for some magic tool to get him to be the person you > want him to be. That way lies only frustration. Hi Doug, Just came back from joint marital counselling. I was terrified about public speaking. To my amazement it went extremely well. I think the really excellent and friendly therapist helped. So session one, and the background is covered. She's quite good and insightful. Next session, the impasse will be discussed. This is a tough problem. In my view it reveals a deep and buried trait of inability to feel compassion. I am interested to see what the therapist will say. I think at this point in time, his self-awareness and capacity for remorse is less than zero. My prediction is that given a choice between what has already been described as an exceptional and good marriage of 30 yrs. will be casually discarded for a "friendship too deep and valuable to lose, even though the lust is now gone". Tune in for the next episode of "My principles" :-). Erin > > > > > What do I want? I would like him to be honest and to act > > > > > on that. I would also like him to respect as he used to and [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Erin p.s. oh yeah, i just learned from him that his soulmate is coming to stay at his bachelor pad again. This is after i told her that i felt her relationship with my husband was jeopardizing our marriage. We have been living apart for a year on account of their deep friendship. Obviously, neither of them give a sh.t about our marriage. As far as she is concerned, what you don't see is not there. And as she informed me he told her he was desperately unhappy with the marriage -- this in stark contrast to what he told the therapist in front of me about how special and wonderful our marriage is. As far as he is concerned, if i bitch about this again, he will take action against me. They are both very nasty people. As Doug said, when confronted with mean and inconsiderate people, the best thing you can do, is protect yourself from them. Thanks Doug. Erin > > > > > > What do I want? I would like him to be honest and to act > > > > > > on that. I would also like him to respect as he used to and [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > friendship. Obviously, neither of them give a sh.t about our > marriage. Wow Erin. You finally got a trained proffessional tell you something we been telling you for the last 2 years. > As far as she is concerned, what you don't see is not there. And > as she informed me he told her he was desperately unhappy with > the marriage -- this in stark contrast to what he told the therapist > in front of me about how special and wonderful our marriage is. > As far as he is concerned, if i bitch about this again, he will take > action against me. Tell him to bring it on. Just his way of "putting you in your place" and him doing whatever he feels like doing. Jesus, what a nasty piece of work. > They are both very nasty people. Once again, you are finally "getting it" you had me a bit worried earlier when you started saying: "He helps me this way, and i help him. A complete break will have dire consequences for both of us, and there are many complications i won't go into. Stress is one of them which can kill him or me. It is the kindest option for all involved, and i mean all. " My god, my head just feels likes it's about to exploded when I read stuff like this when he and his "soulmate" clearly treat you like sh.t. > As Doug said, when confronted with mean and inconsiderate > people, the best thing you can do, is protect yourself from them. > > Thanks Doug. Doug should get the money you are paying your counselor. EB > > > > > > > What do I want? �I would like him to �be honest and to act > > > > > > > on that. �I would also like him to respect as he used to and [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > > EB Will he accept virtual currency? Erin > Fortunately for me, he has now found some > new crutches. Crutches are not always what they seem. Sometimes crutch's are created by merely pointing ones finger. Weak-kneed can still struggle forward walking slowly even crawling if they have to; but the weak-minded, they persistently point in the wrong direction, as they stand still. > > Fortunately for me, he has now found some > > new crutches. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > they have to; but the weak-minded, they persistently point in the wrong > direction, as they stand still. I don't understand your message, sorry. Erin |
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