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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / May 2008What is this Group For?
I thought this was a marriage group to discuss our marriages. I see mostly other topics discussed. >I thought this was a marriage group to discuss our marriages. I see >mostly other topics discussed. It is mostly to discuss marriages but topics sometimes veer off into other areas. It's called "thread drift" and you'll see it all over Usenet. In addition, there is a lot of spam (totally unrelated articles, posted by people who are hoping to redirect you to their site so they can sell you any number of things). Most of us just read and respond to the threads that interest us, and ignore the spam and many of the off-topic posts. Although sometimes those turn out to be the most interesting!  SignatureLauri in WA >>I thought this was a marriage group to discuss our marriages. >>I see mostly other topics discussed. > It is mostly to discuss marriages but topics sometimes veer off > into other areas. It's called "thread drift" and you'll see it all over > Usenet... > Most of us just read and respond to the threads that interest us, > and ignore the spam and many of the off-topic posts. Although > sometimes those turn out to be the most interesting! Speaking of which... Has anyone see the new Narnia movie, yet? <ducking> >>>I thought this was a marriage group to discuss our marriages. >>>I see mostly other topics discussed. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Speaking of which... Has anyone see the new Narnia movie, yet? > <ducking> So I'll keep going on the OT. I was brought up on the Narnia books. They are of course by the religious writer C.S. Lewis. I am fascinated that they have "taken off" now. Perhaps they are a follow on to "Lord of the Rings" and the ongoing torrent of sagas it spawned. Perhaps the values are needed nowadays? Doug L. Studying for his "final exam," as it was once put. > >> berbob...@webtv.net wrote: > >>>I thought this was a marriage group to discuss our marriages. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I just think it's just cycling through due to the advances in CGI technoligies. The first four books have already being televised in England back in the early 80's by the BBC. Lord of the Rings was first an adult animated movie done by Ralph Bakshi way back in 1978. You will notice there are a whole slew of children fantasy stories finally being brought to the big screen. What I'm waiting for is all 14 Wizard of Oz books done and not just the first 3. "Return to Oz" was kind of merging of the 2nd (The Marvelous Land of Oz) and 3rd book (Ozma of Oz). EB > > So I'll keep going on the OT. I was brought up on the Narnia books. They > > are of course by the religious writer C.S. Lewis. I am fascinated that > > they have "taken off" now. > I just think it's just cycling through due to the advances in CGI > technoligies. I read the books as a young adult and enjoyed them a lot in spite of the rather heavy handed religiousity. I did not get thru the first movie, so probably won't look at the second. I have seen some very good CGI, but I thought Aslan was very fake looking. Not at all a cartoon, but not like a real lion either and that spoiled it for me. > What I'm waiting for is all 14 Wizard of Oz books done and not just > the first 3. > "Return to Oz" was kind of merging of the 2nd (The Marvelous Land of > Oz) and 3rd book (Ozma of Oz). Now, those were the books that I was brought up on. I thought that "Return to Oz" was very well done and think I like it more that the old "Wizard of Oz". Although I really liked most of the OZ books, I'm not sure if they all would make good movies. Dave > So I'll keep going on the OT. I was brought up on the Narnia books. They > are of course by the religious writer C.S. Lewis. I am fascinated that > they have "taken off" now. Perhaps they are a follow on to "Lord of the > Rings" and the ongoing torrent of sagas it spawned. Perhaps the values are > needed nowadays? My theory is that humans need myths and stories. Back in the 1960s my high school curriculum included comparative mythology of Greek, Roman and Norse myths. Those plus Biblical and to a lesser extent Egyptian set the background for nearly all symbols and literature in western civilization so they were very beneficial to learn. When my daughters went through high school in the 1990s the curriculum no longer included the topic. Why might be a topic for other newsgroups. But as myths were dropped form the schools, Hollywood supplied new ones. Star Wars with The Force gives an animist view of the world. Lord of the Rings gives a heroic view of people. The tales of Narnia complement these with a subtle and finely crafted Christian viewpoint of heroism, bravery, responsibility. Each of the Narnia books teaches a lesson of how Christian myths shape our view of the world. If you can tell that Aslan is a Christ symbol, that is. If you can't they are mythical tales that teach the same lessons without the Christian viewpoint being obvious. How would myths be on topic for a marriage support group? If humans need stories to teach values - allegories - then we need to pick and chose which stories we tell our children. Just plain removing them from the curriculum at school did nothing but replace one set with another and newer means the long term second order effects aren't known yet. As married folks the marriage relationships depicted in our myths should set a context for our own marriages. Tales of Zeus cheating on Hera would need to be balanced with tales of stable marriages. > > So I'll keep going on the OT. I was brought up on the Narnia books. They > > are of course by the religious writer C.S. Lewis. I am fascinated that [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > of Zeus cheating on Hera would need to be balanced with > tales of stable marriages. There have always been cinema mythical heros. I've always watched the dozen of Sinbad and Hercules movies during the 60's and 70's. Before then was Tarzan, Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers. Since I don't have kids, I have no idea what required reading is in most schools. I can remember Beowulf was required in my grade school. Also canterbury tales and Aseops Fables. I even can remember a certain banned book called "The 5 Chinese Brothers" which use to be required reading in the 60's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Chinese_Brothers In Junior High we did have to read Greek Mythology, but to be honest I was already reading Greek, Norse and Egyptian on my own. Egyptian because of references in "The 10 Commandments". I grew up reading The Wizard of Oz and Brothers Grimm. In High School, I remember having to read Shakespeare (Julius Caesar and Hamlet) and stories of Camelot, especially "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" EB > > > So I'll keep going on the OT. I was brought up on the Narnia books. They > > > are of course by the religious writer C.S. Lewis. I am fascinated that [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > Brothers" which use to be required reading in the 60's. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Chinese_Brothers I loved that story when I was little. Describing it as "banned" seems like an exaggeration. It is true that certain schools have decided it is racist and removed it from their library. But I saw it _in_ a school library only a few months ago! But if by banned you mean "removed from some school libraries," then I agree with that. It is available new and used from Amazon. And a DVD of the book is in our local public library. As far as myths and Doug F's assertion that we need positive myths about marriage - I'm not so sure. I think myths are usually about circumstances more dramatic than the circumstances of everyday life. It is true that myths can be influential and can have meaning. But the myth of Icarus (for example) is about ambition untempered by common sense (or whatever you think it is about - I don't care if anyone agrees with my interpretation) and as such is much more memorable than a myth about someone who exercised common sense, flew around for a little while, landed safely, got married and had 2.7 kids. It reminds me of "why does the news concentrate on bad news?" (I hasten to add I'm very critical of journalism, but not on that count.) Well, a big earthquake in Szechuan province is simply more interesting and noteworthy than the absence of a big earthquake somewhere else. >> > > So I'll keep going on the OT. I was brought up on the Narnia books. >> > > They [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > months ago! But if by banned you mean "removed from some school > libraries," then I agree with that. I stand corrected. Yeah, I meant removed. I read the wikipedia saying it was removed from most schools, so I took that to mean banned. > As far as myths and Doug F's assertion that we need positive myths > about marriage - I'm not so sure. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > around for a little while, landed safely, got married and had 2.7 > kids. Hey, I got the same message from Icarus. Wouldn't be much of a story if they both flew off into the sunset. When you think of it, most of the Greek mythology stories end up with unhappy endings. Poor Prometheus gave man fire, but for his troubles, he was chained to a freaking mountain and had birds eat his liver everyday. Pandora opened a box of misery upon mankind. Arachne challenged Athena to weaving contest, won and but was driven crazy by the goddess. She hung herself Athena brought her back to life as a spider. Nice! Poor Persephone only crime was she was pretty and got snatch by the god of the underworld, Hades. Because she ate 6 pomegranate seeds (or 3 or 4 YMMV) she had to spend that many months with Hades. Happy ever afters doesn't fit in with most mythology stories. And don't get me started on the fate of most the heroes of the trojan war. > It reminds me of "why does the news concentrate on bad news?" (I > hasten to add I'm very critical of journalism, but not on that count.) > Well, a big earthquake in Szechuan province is simply more interesting > and noteworthy than the absence of a big earthquake somewhere else. Britney Spears... I rest my case EB > > There have always been cinema mythical heros. In the past they weren't historical blockbusters. Now the Star Wars movies hold 5 of the top 20 slots of best selling movies of all time (with Gone with the Wind and Titannic far ahead of any others and both being arguably mythical tales about human nature under stress). Most of those top 20 are broadly in the SF/horror/fantasy genre but many are modern myths. > > I've always watched the > > dozen of Sinbad and Hercules movies during the 60's and 70's. Both ancient myths. The Sinbad tales are middle eastern stories of a time when English speakers were telling of King Arthur and Beowulf. > > Before then was Tarzan, Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers. All being 20th century in origin they are modern myths but from well before my commentary about myths being dropped from high school curricula. What the previous paragraphs tell me is myths have always been popular, myths have always changed, and the rate of popularity of modern myths over ancient myths has been accelerating since before the removal of mytholgy from the high school curriculum. > As far as myths and Doug F's assertion that we need positive myths > about marriage - I'm not so sure. There are tales of woe when a marriage goes bad. Sigurd and Brunhild among many others. Tales of Odin and Frigga are as positive and tales of Zeus and Hera are negative. So both are to be found. > I think myths are usually about circumstances more dramatic than the > circumstances of everyday life. The difference between the events of a myth and the meaning in a myth - The events are exaggerated to show features of every day life taken to an extreme. > It is true that myths can be influential and can have meaning. Myths teach a meaning that's already there. Consider the New Testament use of allegory in teaching. Jesus told the apostles that he told stories so the people could understand (allegories) but the apostles got the meaning in raw form (discussion of what the allegoy means and what lesson it's intended to convey). > > > There have always been cinema mythical heros. > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Frigga are as positive and tales of Zeus and Hera are negative. > So both are to be found. No doubt. But I have a feeling the ones that resonate are about disharmony (or at best about disharmony resolved) rather than about harmony, which doesn't make such good myth fodder. > > I think myths are usually about circumstances more dramatic than the > > circumstances of everyday life. > > The difference between the events of a myth and the meaning > in a myth - The events are exaggerated to show features of > every day life taken to an extreme. You seem to be asserting more intentionality than I believe exists. I think myths start as stories. The ones that we retain and which become myths are those that resonate with us. So it isn't so much that the storyteller is setting out to tell us how to live. Rather, the storyteller is setting out to tell a story, and the really good stories (which are probably ones that we feel contain metaphors for real problems) become myths. > > It is true that myths can be influential and can have meaning. > > Myths teach a meaning that's already there. So you're a Platonist? I'm not sure what that statement means. I suppose you can make the argument that all meaning is already there - it just needs to be explained. > Consider the New > Testament use of allegory in teaching. Jesus told the apostles > that he told stories so the people could understand (allegories) > but the apostles got the meaning in raw form (discussion of > what the allegoy means and what lesson it's intended to convey). Sure. Often if one has something to comunicate, one makes up stories to do so. > > > I think myths are usually about circumstances more dramatic than the > > > circumstances of everyday life. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > think myths start as stories. The ones that we retain and which > become myths are those that resonate with us. I think you're swapping cause and effect. Strugeon's Law is in effect with potential myths as well as with everythnig else - 90% of everything is crap. Story tellers want to tell a story, which might (Jesus's allegories) or might not (read Isaac Asimov's reaction to critics) include deeper meaning. The stories that don't have meaning don't last. Generally the myths are the stories that lasted several generations and thus several of the 90% filters - Whether the author intended or not there is meaning in the story. It is a vanishingly rare story like Star Wars that is popular enough in its own generation to be counted as myth - Really it needs to survive longer to be judged more than myth in the making. > So it isn't so much that the storyteller is setting out to tell us how > to live. Rather, the storyteller is setting out to tell a story, and > the really good stories (which are probably ones that we feel contain > metaphors for real problems) become myths. Correct. Myths that encode deep meaning, intended or not on the part of the author, survive to be retold by future generations. > > > It is true that myths can be influential and can have meaning. > > > Myths teach a meaning that's already there. > > So you're a Platonist? Partially, but that's not the issue hear I think. > I'm not sure what that statement means. I > suppose you can make the argument that all meaning is already there - > it just needs to be explained. To me it's about why stories survive into future generations to become myths. If they don't contain deeper meaning they are worth repeating. Simple Darwinian filtering. And as myths are retold generation to generation they changed gradually. While we now have written lore so this is not required to happen, remakes and retellings continue. Those remakes that contain more valueable and more symbolic meaning will survive better while those with surface adventue will not. > > Consider the New > > Testament use of allegory in teaching. Jesus told the apostles [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Sure. Often if one has something to comunicate, one makes up stories > to do so. Taking from your own theme - So Jesus was a Platonist? I think so. He saw truth. He saw how people might understand truth through stories. He made up myths aka allegories to contain truth. He taught the apostles what truths were in what myths. Why is Star Wars so popular? One reason I see is it teaches us that hightly technical heavily industrialized society can and should be deeply spiritual. The Jedi feel and use The Force for good, yet The Force has a dark side like any religious system suseptible to fundie abuse. The spiritual approach of the Jedi shows that tree huggers do not need to turn away from science to be spiritual. The spiritual approach of the Jedi shows that industry is not the opposite of spirituality but independent of it. The change from nature to industry was fast, so a spiritual approach to industry was slow to appear. When it appeared in the form of Star Wars it took off and pervaded society because society craved a way to be spiritual in a way that the old nature ways could not supply. No chance at all to be a Boy Scout in the woods on a space station. Few chances to be a Boy Scout in the woods when growing up in a large city. All a matter of relative scale - Star Wars took the large city to an extreme then showed how to live a life of deep spiritual meaning there. Is there any chance that George Lucas intended this to be the lesson to be found in his movie? Unlikely. Is the message there in mythic truth anyways? Most certainly. That's how any good myth works - truth in symbolic or poetic form where if you take the events of the story as having actually happened in a literal sense you miss all of that beauty and meaning. Many Star Wars fans who see it as a mythic epic will have their own favored meaning. The fact that I told the one meaning above doesn't mean your meaning isn't true or that it's the only meaning I've seen in the story. That too is the beauty of how myth encodes deeper truth. The stories pull truth out of our souls yet the truth is there in the background in the story. The better the myth, the more meanings are to be found. > > > > I think myths are usually about circumstances more dramatic than the > > > > circumstances of everyday life. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > needs to survive longer to be judged more than myth in the > making. How am I swapping cause with effect? > > So it isn't so much that the storyteller is setting out to tell us how > > to live. Rather, the storyteller is setting out to tell a story, and [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > to become myths. If they don't contain deeper meaning they > are worth repeating. Simple Darwinian filtering. I wouldn't call it Darwinian, but I agree with you. In fact it is what I've been saying. I understood you to be saying something different, but maybe I was wrong. > And as myths are retold generation to generation they > changed gradually. While we now have written lore so this [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Taking from your own theme - So Jesus was a Platonist? Actually, I don't think he was, but what we know of the historical Jesus is so heavily filtered that I don't feel I can be sure. To me, being a Platonist involves believing that there are pure and perfect ideals of things which we can only approximate in the world. I think he was more practical than that. My own (best) take on his teachings are that he taught that all people should be respected and valued and tried to demonstrate that through his actions and stories. (snipping Star Wars analysis which I don't happen to agree with, but I don't find Star Wars interesting enough or even mythic enough to find it worth discussing.) <snipped> > Both ancient myths. The Sinbad tales are middle eastern > stories of a time when English speakers were telling of > King Arthur and Beowulf. pssst... Just a nit to pick, but Beowulf isn't an English epic. Kitten > <snipped> > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Just a nit to pick, but Beowulf isn't an English epic. The events aren't in England, but I understand it to be written in Old English which suggests Doug F. is right that it was being told among English speakers. (Quite possibly the same story was being told other places in other languages too, but it seems clear it was being told among English speakers.) On May 21, 10:28 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > <snipped> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > languages too, but it seems clear it was being told among English > speakers.) It was originally written in Anglo-Saxon about events in Scandinavia. Kitten > On May 21, 10:28 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > It was originally written in Anglo-Saxon about events in > Scandinavia. I know it was written about events in what is now Denmark (and to some extent Sweden) but Doug F's statement was about where it was being _told_. Since it was written in Old English (or, if you prefer, Anglo-Saxon), I think it is logical to believe that it was being told in places where that language was spoken (that'd be some of England, and maybe some parts of Scotland). That matches what Doug F. says. On May 21, 12:46 pm, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On May 21, 10:28 am, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovet...@gmail.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > That matches what Doug F. says.- There's an interesting article on the topic on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf > Since it was written in Old English (or, if you prefer, Anglo-Saxon), > I think it is logical to believe that it was being told in places > where that language was spoken (that'd be some of England, and maybe > some parts of Scotland). Beowulf in English literature because copies of it in other languages aren't known at all or are very obscure. There is much literature written in English about events elsewhere. Even more when you include literature translated into English. Beowulf has the fun status of having been written in English long enough ago that it is now translated into English - Where the older version might be called Old English, Old Saxon, Anglo-Saxon. > >I thought this was a marriage group to discuss our marriages. I see > >mostly other topics discussed. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > ignore the spam and many of the off-topic posts. Although sometimes > those turn out to be the most interesting! Where's that FAQ? How come nobody ever posts the FAQ anymore? >>> I thought this was a marriage group to discuss our marriages. I see >>> mostly other topics discussed. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Where's that FAQ? How come nobody ever posts the FAQ anymore? Because it's sorta self-evident once you jump into the swimming pool. >>>> I thought this was a marriage group to discuss our marriages. I see >>>> mostly other topics discussed. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Because it's sorta self-evident once you jump into the swimming pool. There is a group for FAQs somewhere. Doug. >>> I thought this was a marriage group to discuss our marriages. I see >>> mostly other topics discussed. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Where's that FAQ? How come nobody ever posts the FAQ anymore? Possibly it was backed up before a system recovery and didn't make it back on to the clean machine. Until very, very recently, that is! > >>> I thought this was a marriage group to discuss our marriages. I see > >>> mostly other topics discussed. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Possibly it was backed up before a system recovery and didn't make it back > on to the clean machine. Until very, very recently, that is! I have no such excuse, but I don't know where I put the damn thing. > > >>> I thought this was a marriage group to discuss our marriages. I see > > >>> mostly other topics discussed. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > I have no such excuse, but I don't know where I put the damn thing. Aha! It didn't have FAQ in the name. Veeerry tricky. |
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