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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / July 2008



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Getting stronger

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Erin - 05 Jul 2008 16:42 GMT
I'm getting stronger emotionally; that's not
good for Mr. and Mrs. Soulmate because
this marriage requires a lot of work.  But it's
very good more me.  I can take care of myself
now.  I am getting more self-confidence.
Maybe I was the one who was mistreated
in the marriage after all.

Erin
Michaela - 06 Jul 2008 12:18 GMT
> I'm getting stronger emotionally; that's not
> good for Mr. and Mrs. Soulmate because
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Erin

You have to give permission to be mistreated before
you get mistreated.

- Michaela
Erin - 06 Jul 2008 12:44 GMT
> > I'm getting stronger emotionally; that's not
> > good for Mr. and Mrs. Soulmate because
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> - Michaela

I guess we weren't that formal in our daily transactions,
maybe not even aware.  Anyway, i understand that
everyone has their weaknesses and can't get out
of personal habits.  I still think that the problems accumulated
due to medical factors.

Erin
Michaela - 07 Jul 2008 20:17 GMT
>>> I'm getting stronger emotionally; that's not
>>> good for Mr. and Mrs. Soulmate because
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> You have to give permission to be mistreated before
>> you get mistreated.

Sorry, my response here was a little silly and I don't seem
to have the energy to correct it right now, nevertheless
I think that what you say below is close to the truth of
the matter:

> I guess we weren't [...] even aware.

 Anyway, i understand that
> everyone has their weaknesses and can't get out
> of personal habits.

Ok. So are you saying that a habit is a character trait?
If not, then what?

 I still think that the problems accumulated
> due to medical factors.
>
> Erin

I don't think it matters what caused your problems. To me
what matters once something has happened is what we are
going to do about it.

- Michaela
Erin - 08 Jul 2008 03:45 GMT
> >>> I'm getting stronger emotionally; that's not
> >>> good for Mr. and Mrs. Soulmate because
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> - Michaela

I wish I were dead -- everybody seems to be against me;
i have no rights.

Erin
AllYou! - 08 Jul 2008 12:30 GMT
In
news:c7605c3e-6837-49dd-af4f-2db214945cd9@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com,
Erin <squiggle@sympatico.ca> mused:
>>>>> I'm getting stronger emotionally; that's not
>>>>> good for Mr. and Mrs. Soulmate because
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> I wish I were dead -- everybody seems to be against me;
> i have no rights.

That's clearly Bullshit.  Virtually everyone here has told you over
and over again that you have the right to do what's right for you,
no matter what your myriad of counselors and professionals say.
Erin - 08 Jul 2008 04:11 GMT
> >>> I'm getting stronger emotionally; that's not
> >>> good for Mr. and Mrs. Soulmate because
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> - Michaela

I am completely confused and very unhappy.  I was expecting
support from the counsellor, but apparently i am needlessly
jealous.  OK maybe -- counsellor has not examined the
mountains of evidence.  I am still unhappy, but i am supposed
to be happy-- how do i do that?  Get raped and shut up?

Erin
Rog' - 08 Jul 2008 09:13 GMT
> I am completely confused and very unhappy.  I was expecting
> support from the counsellor, but apparently i am needlessly
> jealous.  OK maybe -- counsellor has not examined the
> mountains of evidence.  I am still unhappy, but i am supposed
> to be happy-- how do i do that?  Get raped and shut up?

There's no requirement that you be happy or unhappy; you are
what you are.  So, you're conflicted.  As the expression goes,
"Feelings are valid."  Welcome to the real world where nearly
everyone is confused and unhappy.  As for what "they" say,
tell them that you aren't in the market for bullsh*t and they can
stick it where the sun don't shine, or words to that effect. Only
you get to decide what you want.
AllYou! - 08 Jul 2008 12:31 GMT
In
news:f48e24f7-6f97-4737-abdc-9e08aa385534@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com,
Erin <squiggle@sympatico.ca> mused:
>>>>> I'm getting stronger emotionally; that's not
>>>>> good for Mr. and Mrs. Soulmate because
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> mountains of evidence.  I am still unhappy, but i am supposed
> to be happy-- how do i do that?  Get raped and shut up?]

It's all very simple.  No need for drugs or councelors or anyone
else.  Look into your heart, and do what you believe is right for
you to do.
Erin - 09 Jul 2008 01:36 GMT
> > >>> I'm getting stronger emotionally; that's not
> > >>> good for Mr. and Mrs. Soulmate because
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> Erin

OK that was yesterday folks; today is a different day and
i had a very nice talk with DH.  I have to become more trusting.
Why am i not trusting?  It has caused me all this misery;
he report two counsellors saying there is no need for jealousy,
friends say sure there is, family is divided.  I have to take a leap
of faith it seems, and just look at the foundation-- which is,
that he loves me and i love him-- i think :-)

Apologies for the venting posts above.

Erin

Erin
Bill in Co - 09 Jul 2008 02:38 GMT
>>>>>> I'm getting stronger emotionally; that's not
>>>>>> good for Mr. and Mrs. Soulmate because
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> OK that was yesterday folks; today is a different day and
> i had a very nice talk with DH.  I have to become more trusting.

And now YOU have to become more trusting?   (are you kidding?)
Has he earned it - by HIS actions?  (that's rhetorical)

> Why am i not trusting?  It has caused me all this misery;
> he report two counsellors saying there is no need for jealousy,

I think there is.    And just because "he reported that two counselors
(allegedly) said there isn't" - doesn't hold much water with me (or I bet
many).

> friends say sure there is,

I think your friends are right.

> family is divided.

As is (presumably) most of your family.    I think you're drifting off shore
here, Erin.
Erin - 09 Jul 2008 13:31 GMT
> >>>>>> I'm getting stronger emotionally; that's not
> >>>>>> good for Mr. and Mrs. Soulmate because
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> As is (presumably) most of your family.    I think you're drifting off shore
> here, Erin.

Bill and AllYou! and all you  who have spent so much time-- you are
very kind.
It just occurred to me-- i forgot about what stigma (i am female and
bipolar) can
do to me.  If I don't accept this compromise, which the counsellors
(professionals
who carrry more weight) and the doctor, think it's because i am
delusionally
jealous-- the consequences for me could much worse.  Even my DH
presently,
contrary to a counsellor's opinion about the responsibility of the
marital crisis
laying mostly on DH not taking his meds, etc., thinks that i "need
repair" when
he comes back home.  If I lack credibility, i can expect medications,
therapy
and further stigmitization.

So, I better look at the good side of my DH as the counsellor
suggested,
and avoid any further pain.  Experience has shown that I already lack
credibility, and he (though also mentally ill) does not -- no doubt
due
to his silver tongue, and being male.

That's it.  When i have drifted ashore Bill, I better not make
waves.  :-)

Things are not so bad after all-- he does love me and he is basically
a nice person with problems.

Erin
AllYou! - 09 Jul 2008 16:11 GMT
In
news:a33db769-9a5c-458e-a9bb-ca401ab7aea5@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com,
Erin <squiggle@sympatico.ca> mused:

> Bill and AllYou! and all you  who have spent so much time-- you
> are very kind.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> counsellors (professionals
> who carrry more weight) and the doctor,

<sigh>

In terms of the decisions that you make as to how you will live your
life, and for the kinds of behavior that you will accept from those
close to you, no one carries any "weight" other than you.  All of
the rest is simply advice, whether it comes from professionals,
family, friends, or even strangers on Usenet.  None of these people
carries any weight of any significance as compared to your own
opinion.

The idea that you are in any way bound to the opinions of others, or
even that they know better than you what is right for you is
nonsense.  And, to be quite honest, there are not only a lot of
quacks out there who qualify as 'professionals', but there are very
many light-weights as well.  Therefore, you need to take all of this
with a grain of salt.

Having said that, it is certainly a good idea to consider what the
pros are saying, as long as you are very clear in what they are
saying.  However, I cannot imagine any reasonably competent
counselor advising you to stay in any relationship at all, no matter
with whom it might be.  That's not their role, and that's not for
them to say, and any competent advisor knows that.  And if you truly
believe they have said any such thing, then you are either sadly
misunderstanding what they are actually saying, or they are
completely incompetent.

think it's because i am
> delusionally
> jealous-- the consequences for me could much worse.  Even my DH
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Erin
Erin - 09 Jul 2008 21:46 GMT
> In
> news:a33db769-9a5c-458e-a9bb-ca401ab7aea5@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com,
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
>AY-- counsellor said no such thing; counsellors listen and
present what they hear as a third party; and what this one and his
hears, is that DH is a loving husband who wants to get back together
with his wife.  As for the OW, the question is can DH do something
to appease wife?  And DH says, yes, and wife says, not enough, but
no more is offered, and infact a contradiction is spotted by the
counsellor,
suggesting that wife may be not entirely justified in the facts about
jealousy,
and i would like to emphasize "suggesting".  So, at the end of the
day,
when the compatibility of a really well matched couple is observed,
the
decision of what to do is left up to us.

I understand all that.  The question has been, what decision should i
make
given that insight?  So, i have decided to take him back, still
believing that
the OW relationship is too close for my comfort, but taking all those
other
factors into account, and coming out with this balance.

Erin
AllYou! - 09 Jul 2008 23:44 GMT
In
news:3554d00c-d859-412f-9cbd-ca913e4a2ac0@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com,
Erin <squiggle@sympatico.ca> mused:
>> In
>> news:a33db769-9a5c-458e-a9bb-ca401ab7aea5@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com,
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> his hears, is that DH is a loving husband who wants to get back
> together with his wife.

No competent advisor would even go as far as to tell you what your
husband is, or what he wants.  It is not the role of any counselor
to say any such thing.  Moreover, even if some nut job said such a
thing, or if you think you heard such a thing, then it is still your
decision to do what you know is right for you.  You have said that
he is guilty of infidelity, and of being abusive to you, and of
being a liar.  Therefore, what he wants or how he feels is
irrelevant to whether or not you are willing to accept that behavior
in your marriage.  If you are, then stop complaining about it.  If
you are  not, then get out.

 As for the OW, the question is can DH
> do something to appease wife?  And DH says, yes, and wife says,
> not enough, but no more is offered, and infact a contradiction
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> observed, the
> decision of what to do is left up to us.

No competent counselor would ever say or do anything to suggest that
you are not justified to feel how you feel.  It's either all in your
head, or s/he is incometent.

> I understand all that.  The question has been, what decision
> should i make
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> those other
> factors into account, and coming out with this balance.

Then stop whining about your situation.
Erin - 10 Jul 2008 00:11 GMT
> In
> news:3554d00c-d859-412f-9cbd-ca913e4a2ac0@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com,
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
>
> Then stop whining about your situation.

OK - i'm glad you're not my husband, sheesh.  Alpha males from
Alpha Centurion.

Erin
AllYou! - 10 Jul 2008 12:37 GMT
In
news:cba858c8-ed89-4ebd-9530-d47614ea701a@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com,
Erin <squiggle@sympatico.ca> mused:
>> In
>> news:3554d00c-d859-412f-9cbd-ca913e4a2ac0@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com,
[quoted text clipped - 83 lines]
> OK - i'm glad you're not my husband, sheesh.  Alpha males from
> Alpha Centurion.

I'm afraid that you still don't get it.  (btw, no one could be
happier that I'm not your Dh than me).  The "then stop......" was an
implicit 'if..then" thing.  IOW, 'if' this is going to be your
decision, 'then' stop complaining about that which you've decided to
accept.
Erin - 10 Jul 2008 12:42 GMT
> In
> news:cba858c8-ed89-4ebd-9530-d47614ea701a@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com,
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
> decision, 'then' stop complaining about that which you've decided to
> accept.

Oh OK, i get it.

Thanks for the compliment btw.

Erin
Michaela - 10 Jul 2008 22:21 GMT
terday folks; today is a different day and
> i had a very nice talk with DH.  I have to become more trusting.
> Why am i not trusting?

As long as you're not trusting you feel justified in looking for
attention. Whether this is attention on usenet or among friends
or family members or irto your husband, it doesn't matter.
As long as you don't have to look within.

With love
Michaela
Erin - 10 Jul 2008 22:32 GMT
> terday folks; today is a different day and
> > i had a very nice talk with DH.  I have to become more trusting.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> With love
>  Michaela

Thanks Michaela,

All these adventures we have had and the illnesses,
have made me less than a party girl, so i guess i
abandoned care for myself to take care of other problems,
especially my husband's who has gone through a very
difficult time with meds.  But now, strangely enough, this
break has given me an opportunity to get together with
friends again, and get involved in exercise clubs and take
courses, and look after myself.  I am almost starting to get
happy again.  I rather hope that the break has been good
for him too.

I think that chronic illness puts a strain on everyone and
especially on people who have an inclination towards
nurturing.

Erin
pennyshiny123@gmail.com - 09 Jul 2008 01:58 GMT
> I am completely confused and very unhappy.  I was expecting
> support from the counsellor, but apparently i am needlessly
> jealous.  OK maybe -- counsellor has not examined the
> mountains of evidence.  I am still unhappy, but i am supposed
> to be happy-- how do i do that?  Get raped and shut up?

Is it possible you are needlessly jealous?

Have you seen your own pdoc lately? How long ago? Maybe you should
have your own therapist, to balance it all out?

jen
Erin - 09 Jul 2008 12:35 GMT
pennyshiny...@gmail.com wrote:

> > I am completely confused and very unhappy. �I was expecting
> > support from the counsellor, but apparently i am needlessly
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> jen

YES!  It's possible.  The problem is that I don't know, especially
when he confessed to me that he loved her, d'oh!  And that he
would marry her if he were not emotionally attached to me; am
i truly insane or did my ears play tricks?  I think not.  The best
scenario is that he had, as he said a crush on her, then love,
then getting fed up of living like a bachelor without her, and wants
to come back to me.  That doesn't mean he never loved me, but
it may mean that i have grounds for jealously, don't you think?
Do you think a doctor may actually rearrange his words and actions
so as to reveal to me how delusionally jealous I was.  He did
as to at least see her every month - travel 3000 miles to see her
every month and vice versa.   What say you?

Erin
pennyshiny123@gmail.com - 10 Jul 2008 19:48 GMT
> pennyshiny...@gmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> as to at least see her every month - travel 3000 miles to see her
> every month and vice versa.   What say you?

I'm going to put this as delicately as possible, and I hope I don't
offend. You know where I'm coming from, as one bp to another.

There is a possibility that you are having bipolar breakthrough
symptoms - lithium has been known to stop working. It's the very rare
person who can stay on it as long as you have, and still have it work
for them. So I'm thinking it might just be wise to go in to see your
OWN pdoc and/or therapist - someone neutral - and get a full checkup
(more than just a 15 minute med check). To ensure that you are not the
one having hallucinations and delusions (which, as you know, can
happen with bipolar). You've been through a lot of stress. It is
possible, don't you think?

If your own neutral pdoc/therapist says you are just fine, then...
well, I don't know what to say about your DH's therapist and all the
other people who think DH is fine and you're the one being
delusionally jealous. It doesn't seem to add up.
Erin - 10 Jul 2008 21:15 GMT
pennyshiny...@gmail.com wrote:
> > pennyshiny...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> other people who think DH is fine and you're the one being
> delusionally jealous. It doesn't seem to add up.

[long read]
Thanks pennyshiny,

Actually i did not know that you were bipolar.

Yes, I have been checked for lithium stability and I am OK in the
bloods
and behaviour; infact, without the lithium i would not have been able
to go through this crisis without a possible suicide attempt; my
husband
was not so lucky during this crisis, as he did get off his
antidepressant
for a year and tried to hang himself.  I thank God he did not push the
chair.

As for the counsellors, it is quite possible that the evidence for an
affair
is only obvious to those who actually work at his environment and that
a visit to his place is not necessarily a mark of adultery, especially
if the
visit is accompanied by her husband for most of the time.  Though this
summer
it will probably be just her.  I think he has been honest to say that
she is
a very close friend, has infact disclosed problems and complaints
about
his unhappiness in the marriage, but then so did she.  The fact that
that
makes me jealous, and the intimacy of their friendship is not matter
of my medical condition or his for that matter, bur rather the fact
that i
would have preferred that he came to me to tell me he was unhappy with
the marriage.

The counsellor agree with these things; what remains now, is what to
do;
break up the marriage or try to rebuild it.  I am cooperative in
trying to
rebuild it, but i do wish that the counsellor would take my jealousy
about
their relationship a little more seriously; for example, ask my
husband to
distance himself a bit more from this friend.  But you see, people are
free agents.  Can you ask something like that to be done, just because
your wife is jealous?  That's the sticking point.  I don't have to
accept
it you know.  I can say, no i won't and the counsellors will not make
a judgement on that.  But they do think that this is a remarkable
marriage
in many ways and worth a try at saving it.

Erin
Erin - 10 Jul 2008 22:10 GMT
> pennyshiny...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > pennyshiny...@gmail.com wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
>
> Erin

Excuse me for the double post, i forgot to add, that
delusions and hallucinations are symtomatic typically
of schizophrenia not manic-depression, which is an
affective disorder.   I have never had a hallucination
in my life.  Though delusions i have seen to be more
common in normal people's beliefs than in mine.  I
don't think I have ever had a delusion that was not
a mistaken belief about a mathematical problem for example.

ALSO, See the DSM IV and the The Merck Medical Manual:

Bipolar Disorders

Bipolar disorders are characterized by mania and depression, which
usually alternate. Exact cause is unknown, but heredity, changes in
the level of brain neurotransmitters, and psychosocial factors may be
involved. Diagnosis is based on history. Treatment consists of drugs,
sometimes with psychotherapy.

Bipolar disorders usually begin in the teens, 20s, or 30s. Lifetime
prevalence is about 1%. Rates are about equal for men and women.

Bipolar disorders are classified partly based on long-term patterns of
episodes of more intense symptoms as bipolar I disorder, bipolar II
disorder, or bipolar disorder not otherwise specified (NOS). Forms
associated with a disorder or drug use are classified as bipolar
disorder due to their general physical condition or substance-induced
bipolar disorder.

Etiology

Exact cause is unknown. Heredity plays some role. There is also
evidence of dysregulation of serotonin and norepinephrine Some Trade
Names
LEVOPHED
Click for Drug Monograph
. Psychosocial factors may also be involved. Stressful life events are
often associated with initial development of symptoms and later
exacerbations, although cause and effect have not been established.

Bipolar disorders or symptoms of bipolar disorders can occur with
several physical disorders, as adverse effects of many drugs, or as
part of several other mental disorders (see Table 1: Mood Disorders:
Some Causes of Symptoms of Depression and ManiaTables).

Symptoms and Signs

Bipolar disorder begins with an acute phase of symptoms and is
followed by a repeating course of relapse and remission. Relapses are
episodes marked by more intense symptoms, lasting about 3 to 6 mo.
Episodes are manic, depressive, hypomanic, or a mixture (of depressive
and manic features). Cycles—time from onset of one episode to that of
the next—vary in length. Cyclicity is particularly accentuated in
rapid-cycling forms of bipolar disorder (usually defined as ≥ 4
episodes/yr). Disruption of developmental and social functioning is
common, especially when onset occurs between ages 13 and 18.

Psychotic symptoms may be present. In full-blown manic psychosis, the
mood is usually elation, but irritability and frank hostility with
cantankerousness are not uncommon.

Bipolar I disorder is defined by alternation of full-fledged manic and
major depressive episodes. It commonly begins with depression.
Depression can occur immediately before or after mania, or depression
and mania can be separated by months or years.

Bipolar II disorder is defined by a history of at least one major
depressive episode and at least one hypomanic episode. Depressive
episodes alternate with hypomania. During the hypomanic period, mood
brightens, the need for sleep decreases, and psychomotor activity
accelerates. Often, the switch follows circadian factors (eg, going to
bed depressed and waking early in the morning in a hypomanic state).
Hypersomnia and overeating are characteristic and may recur seasonally
(eg, in autumn or winter); insomnia and poor appetite occur during the
depressive phase. For some patients, hypomanic periods are adaptive
because they produce high energy, confidence, and supernormal social
functioning.

Bipolar disorder NOS refers to disorders with clear bipolar features
that do not meet the specific criteria for other bipolar disorders.

Mania: A manic episode is defined as ≥ 1 wk of a persistently
elevated, expansive, or irritable mood, accompanied by ≥ 3 additional
symptoms: inflated self-esteem or grandiosity, decreased need for
sleep, greater talkativeness than usual, persistent elevation of mood,
flight of ideas or racing of thoughts, distractibility, increased goal-
directed activity, and excessive involvement in pleasurable activities
with a higher risk of undesirable consequences (eg, injury, loss of
money). Symptoms impair functioning.

Typically, patients in a manic episode are exuberant and flamboyantly
or colorfully dressed; they have an authoritative manner with a rapid,
unstoppable flow of speech. Patients make clang associations: New
thoughts are triggered by word sounds rather than meaning. Easily
distracted, patients may constantly shift from one theme or endeavor
to another. However, they tend to believe they are in their best
mental state. Lack of insight and an increased capacity for activity
often lead to intrusive behavior and can be a dangerous combination.
Interpersonal friction results and may lead to paranoid delusions that
they are being unjustly treated or persecuted. Accelerated mental
activity is experienced as racing thoughts by patients, is observed as
flights of ideas by the physician, and, in its extreme form, is
difficult to distinguish from the loose associations of schizophrenia.
Psychotic symptoms develop in some patients with bipolar I disorder.
Need for sleep is decreased. Manic patients are inexhaustibly,
excessively, and impulsively involved in various activities without
recognizing the inherent social dangers.

Hypomania: A hypomanic episode is a distinct episode of ≥ 4 days that
is distinctly different from the patient's usual nondepressed mood.
The episode is marked by ≥ 4 symptoms that occur during a manic
episode, but the symptoms are relatively less intense, so that
functioning is not markedly impaired.

Mixed state: A mixed episode blends depressive and manic or hypomanic
features. The most typical examples are momentary switches to
tearfulness during the height of mania or racing thoughts during a
depressive period. In at least 1⁄3 of people with bipolar disorder,
the entire episode is mixed. A common presentation consists of a
dysphorically excited mood, crying, curtailed sleep, racing thoughts,
grandiosity, psychomotor restlessness, suicidal ideation, persecutory
delusions, auditory hallucinations, indecisiveness, and confusion.
This presentation is called dysphoric mania (ie, prominent depressive
symptoms superimposed on manic psychosis).

Diagnosis

Some patients who experience hypomania or mania do not report it
unless they are specifically questioned. Skillful questioning may
reveal morbid signs (eg, excesses in spending, impulsive sexual
escapades, stimulant drug abuse). Such information is more likely to
be provided by relatives. Diagnosis is based on the symptoms and signs
described above. All patients must be asked gently but directly about
suicidal ideation, plans, or activity.

A review of substance (especially amphetamines, particularly
methamphetamine—see Drug Use and Dependence: Amphetamines) and
prescription drug use and of body systems is needed to exclude drugs
and physical disorders. Although no laboratory findings are
pathognomonic for bipolar disorders, routine blood tests should be
done to screen for physical disorders; thyroid-stimulating hormone
(TSH) excludes hyperthyroidism. Other physical disorders (eg,
pheochromocytoma) occasionally confuse the diagnosis. Anxiety
disorders (eg, social phobia, panic attacks, obsessive-compulsive
disorders) may also confuse the diagnosis.

Prognosis and Treatment

Most patients with hypomania can be treated as outpatients. Acute
mania usually requires inpatient management. Typically, mood
stabilizers are used to induce remission in patients with acute mania
or hypomania. Lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
and certain anticonvulsants, especially valproate Some Trade Names
DEPAKENE
Click for Drug Monograph
, carbamazepine Some Trade Names
TEGRETOL
Click for Drug Monograph
, oxcarbazepine Some Trade Names
TRILEPTAL
Click for Drug Monograph
, and lamotrigine Some Trade Names
LAMICTAL
Click for Drug Monograph
, act as mood stabilizers and are similarly effective. Choice of a
mood stabilizer depends on the patient's medical history and adverse
effects of the specific mood stabilizer.

Two thirds of patients with uncomplicated bipolar disorder respond to
lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
. Several therapeutic mechanisms have been proposed but are unproved.
Predictors of a good response include a euphoric mania as part of a
primary mood disorder, < 2 episodes/yr, and a personal and family
history of response to lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
. Lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
is less effective in patients with a mixed state, rapid-cycling forms
of bipolar disorder, comorbid anxiety, substance abuse, or a
neurologic disorder.

Lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
carbonate is started at 300 mg po bid or tid and increased over 7 to
10 days until a blood level of 0.8 to 1.2 mEq/L is reached. Lithium
Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
levels should be maintained between 0.8 and 1.0 mEq/L, usually by
giving 450 to 900 mg sustained-release po bid. Adolescents, whose
glomerular function is excellent, need higher doses of lithium Some
Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
; elderly patients need lower doses. During a manic episode, patients
retain lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
and excrete Na; oral dosage and lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
blood level need to be higher during acute treatment than during
maintenance prophylaxis.

Because lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
's onset of action has a 4- to 10-day latency period, an antipsychotic
may be necessary initially; it is given as needed until the manic
stage is controlled. Acute manic psychosis is being increasingly
managed with 2nd-generation antipsychotics, such as risperidone Some
Trade Names
RISPERDAL
Click for Drug Monograph
(usually 4 to 6 mg po once/day), olanzapine Some Trade Names
ZYPREXA
Click for Drug Monograph
(usually 10 to 20 mg po once/day), quetiapine Some Trade Names
SEROQUEL
Click for Drug Monograph
(200 to 400 mg po bid), ziprasidone Some Trade Names
GEODON
Click for Drug Monograph
(40 to 80 mg po bid), and aripiprazole Some Trade Names
ABILIFY
Click for Drug Monograph
(10 to 30 mg once/day) because risk of extrapyramidal adverse effects
is minimal. For extremely hyperactive psychotic patients with poor
food and fluid intake, giving an antipsychotic IM with supportive care
for 1 wk before initiating lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
is preferable. Noncompliant, cantankerous manic patients are
customarily given a depot phenothiazine (eg, fluphenazine Some Trade
Names
PROLIXIN DECANOATE
PROLIXIN
Click for Drug Monograph
12.5 to 25 mg IM q 3 to 4 wk) instead of an oral antipsychotic. Many
patients with bipolar disorder and mood-incongruent psychotic features
beyond the usual boundaries of pure mood disorder require intermittent
courses of depot antipsychotics. Lorazepam Some Trade Names
ATIVAN
Click for Drug Monograph
or clonazepam Some Trade Names
KLONOPIN
Click for Drug Monograph
2 to 4 mg IM or po tid given early in acute management can reduce the
doses need of the antipsychotic.

Although lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
attenuates bipolar mood swings, it has no effect on normal mood. It
also appears to have an antiaggressive action, but whether this action
occurs in people without a bipolar disorder is unclear. Lithium Some
Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
can cause sedation and cognitive impairment directly or indirectly by
causing hypothyroidism. The most common acute, mild adverse effects
are fine tremor, fasciculation, nausea, diarrhea, polyuria, thirst,
polydipsia, and weight gain (partly attributed to drinking high-
calorie beverages). These effects are usually transient and often
respond to decreasing the dose slightly, dividing the dose (eg, tid),
or using slow-release forms. Once dosage is established, the entire
dose should be given after the evening meal. This dosing may improve
compliance, and the troughs in blood levels are believed to protect
the kidneys. A β-blocker (eg, atenolol Some Trade Names
TENORMIN
Click for Drug Monograph
25 to 50 mg po once/day) can control severe tremor. Some β-blockers
may worsen depression.

Lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
toxicity is manifested initially by gross tremor, increased deep
tendon reflexes, persistent headache, vomiting, and confusion and may
progress to stupor, seizures, and arrhythmias. Toxicity is more likely
to occur in elderly patients and in patients with decreased creatinine
clearance or with Na loss, which may result from fever, vomiting,
diarrhea, or use of diuretics. NSAIDs other than aspirin Some Trade
Names
BUFFERIN
ECOTRIN
GENACOTE
Click for Drug Monograph
may contribute to hyperlithemia. Lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
blood levels should be measured, including each time the dose is
changed and at least q 6 mo. Lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
may precipitate hypothyroidism, particularly when there is a family
history of hypothyroidism. Therefore, TSH levels should be monitored
when lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
is started and at least annually if there is a family history or if
symptoms suggest thyroid dysfunction or at least biannually for all
other patients.

Lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
commonly and chronically exacerbates acne and psoriasis and can cause
nephrogenic diabetes insipidus, which may respond to dose reduction or
temporary interruption of lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
. Patients with a history of parenchymal renal disease may be at risk
of structural damage to the distal tubule. Renal function should be
assessed at baseline, and serum creatinine levels should be monitored
over time.

Anticonvulsants that act as mood stabilizers, especially valproate
Some Trade Names
DEPAKENE
Click for Drug Monograph
, carbamazepine Some Trade Names
TEGRETOL
Click for Drug Monograph
, and oxcarbazepine Some Trade Names
TRILEPTAL
Click for Drug Monograph
, are often used for acute mania and for mixed states (mania and
depression). Their precise therapeutic action in bipolar disorder is
unknown but may involve γ-aminobutyric acid mechanisms and ultimately
G-protein signaling systems. Their main advantages over lithium Some
Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
include a wider therapeutic margin and lack of renal toxicity. The
loading dose is 20 mg/kg, then 250 to 500 mg po tid for valproate Some
Trade Names
DEPAKENE
Click for Drug Monograph
. Carbamazepine Some Trade Names
TEGRETOL
Click for Drug Monograph
should not be loaded; the dose should be increased gradually to reduce
risk of toxicity. Oxcarbazepine Some Trade Names
TRILEPTAL
Click for Drug Monograph
has fewer adverse effects and is moderately effective.

Combining mood stabilizers is often necessary for optimal results,
especially when episodes of mania or mixed states are severe.
Electroconvulsive therapy is sometimes used for cases refractory to
mood stabilizers.

Treatment of an initial manic or hypomanic episode with a mood
stabilizer should continue for at least 6 mo, then tapered and
stopped. The mood stabilizer is restarted for recurrent episodes and
maintained if episodes are < 3 yr apart. Maintenance therapy with
lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
should be initiated after 2 classic manic episodes < 3 yr apart.

In patients with recurrences, depressive episodes should be treated
with antidepressants and mood stabilizers (the anticonvulsant
lamotrigine Some Trade Names
LAMICTAL
Click for Drug Monograph
may be particularly effective) because antidepressants (especially
heterocyclics), given alone, may trigger hypomania.

Prevention of rapid cycling: Antidepressants, even when given with a
mood stabilizer, can induce rapid cycling in some patients (eg,
patients with bipolar II disorder). Antidepressants should not be used
prophylactically unless previous depressive episodes have been severe
and, if used, should be given for only 4 to 12 wk. When disruptive
psychomotor acceleration or mixed states supervene, adding 2nd-
generation antipsychotics (eg, risperidone Some Trade Names
RISPERDAL
Click for Drug Monograph
, olanzapine Some Trade Names
ZYPREXA
Click for Drug Monograph
, quetiapine Some Trade Names
SEROQUEL
Click for Drug Monograph
) to the regimen can stabilize the patient.

For an established case of rapid cycling, antidepressants, stimulants,
caffeine, benzodiazepines, and alcohol must be gradually stopped.
Hospitalization may be required. Lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
(or divalproex Some Trade Names
DEPAKOTE
Click for Drug Monograph
) may be given with bupropion Some Trade Names
WELLBUTRIN
ZYBAN
Click for Drug Monograph
. Carbamazepine Some Trade Names
TEGRETOL
Click for Drug Monograph
may also be useful. Some experts combine an anticonvulsant with
lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
, trying to keep both drugs at 1⁄2 to 2⁄3 their usual dose and blood
levels in an appropriate and safe range. Because borderline
hypothyroidism also predisposes to rapid cycling (especially in
women), TSH should be checked. Thyroid replacement should be given if
TSH is high.

Phototherapy: Phototherapy is a relatively new approach to seasonal
bipolar or bipolar II disorder (with autumn-winter depression and
spring-summer hypomania). It is probably most useful as augmentation
(see Mood Disorders: Phototherapy).

Precautions during pregnancy: Most drugs used to treat bipolar
disorder must be tapered and stopped before pregnancy or during early
pregnancy. Women who wish to have a baby should have at least 2 yr of
maintenance therapy with no episodes before lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
is stopped. Lithium Some Trade Names
ESKALITH
LITHOBID
LITHONATE
Click for Drug Monograph
is stopped during the 1st trimester to avoid risk of Epstein's
anomaly, a heart defect. Carbamazepine Some Trade Names
TEGRETOL
Click for Drug Monograph
and divalproex Some Trade Names
DEPAKOTE
Click for Drug Monograph
should also be stopped during the 1st trimester because they may cause
neural tube defects. Other mood stabilizers (eg, lamotrigine Some
Trade Names
LAMICTAL
Click for Drug Monograph
, oxcarbazepine Some Trade Names
TRILEPTAL
Click for Drug Monograph
), if absolutely necessary, can be used during the 2nd and 3rd
trimesters but should be stopped 1 to 2 wk before delivery and resumed
a few days postpartum. For a severe relapse during the 1st trimester,
electroconvulsive therapy is safer. For early manic recurrence, potent
antipsychotics are relatively safe. Women taking mood stabilizers
should not breastfeed because these drugs pass into the milk.

Education and psychotherapy: Enlisting the support of loved ones is
crucial to preventing major episodes. Group therapy is often
recommended for patients and their partner; there, they learn about
bipolar disorder, its social sequelae, and the central role of mood
stabilizers in treatment. Individual psychotherapy may help patients
better cope with problems of daily living and adjust to a new way of
identifying themselves.

Patients, particularly those with bipolar II disorder, may not comply
with mood-stabilizer regimens because they believe that these drugs
make them less alert and creative. The physician can explain that
decreased creativity is relatively uncommon because mood stabilizers
usually provide opportunity for a more even performance in
interpersonal, scholastic, professional, and artistic pursuits.

Patients should be counseled to avoid stimulant drugs and alcohol, to
minimize sleep deprivation, and to recognize early signs of relapse.
If patients tend to be financially extravagant, finances should be
turned over to a trusted family member. Patients with a tendency to
sexual excesses should be given information about conjugal
consequences (eg, divorce) and infectious risks of promiscuity,
particularly AIDS. (See also the American Psychiatric Association's
practice guideline Treating Bipolar Disorder: A Quick Reference
Guide.)

Last full review/revision November 2005

Content last modified November 2005

------------------

Are you sure you're bipolar pennyshiny?

Erin
pennyshiny123@gmail.com - 13 Jul 2008 16:10 GMT
> Excuse me for the double post, i forgot to add, that
> delusions and hallucinations are symtomatic typically
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> don't think I have ever had a delusion that was not
> a mistaken belief about a mathematical problem for example.

I'm shinypenny - I was forced by google to sign up for a gmail the
other day. So I did, but I happened to use my real name, and then i
couldn't post without revealing my identity. So I had to go sign up
for a second gmail account... it was a real pain in the butt and I am
unhappy with google .... Anyway, I figured pennyshiny was easy enough
for those who know me to figure out. ;-)

I'm well-versed in the DSM and latest research on bipolar and
schizophrenia. Yes, you can have hallucinations and delusions with
mania OR depression - without being schizophrenic. In fact, you can
have hallucinations and delusions for a whole lot of reasons. Then
there is delusional disorder, which is a different axis dx entirely.

Actually when you start digging into it, reading beyond just the
bipolar literature, you realize that the diagnostic labels are pretty
much arbritary and meaningless. So don't get too hung up on that.

Anyway, the trouble with delusions is that they are usually very
firmly held, and the person having them has zero insight into the fact
it IS a delusion.

I spent a lot of time writing more, but then I realized if you are
delusional, it won't make any difference and I'm wasting my time,
because you can't really reason with a delusional person. So I'll just
end this here!

jen
Erin - 13 Jul 2008 21:44 GMT
pennyshiny...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Excuse me for the double post, i forgot to add, that
> > delusions and hallucinations are symtomatic typically
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> jen

Problem is when your entire social circle is delusional--
i suppose that is called mass hysteria?

Erin
Mary_Gordon@tvo.org - 13 Jul 2008 18:04 GMT
Erin, all I know is that if my husband had an overly close
relationship with someone outside marriage, whether the relationship
was physical or purely an emotional affair, I would have huge problems
with that. I would feel betrayed. When the third party is still
actively involved, it is impossible to repair the marriage, because
your husband is obviously still turning to her for something he thinks
is missing. To "fix" things, he has to be turning to YOU as the
primary emotional relationship. This is not to say that he can't have
friends - but you have to come first, and feel safe.

My husband is in the arts, and has lots of female friends, but
everything is above board - most of them he's known for years
(including some ex girlfriends from high school. I know them all well,
and none of them are in anyway jealous making, threatening etc. We all
socialize with each other's families. He even goes out with some of
them to shows I'm not hugely interested in (he likes some "out there"
experimental theatre that sometimes tries my patience. However, I'm
number one. I'm the one who is confided in - I'm the best friend and
soul mate.

If I were in your shoes, it would be a no brainer that he would have
to give up the soul mate cold turkey and turn 100% of his attention to
working on the marriage. If he can't do that, you have no chance of
repairing the relationship, quelling the jealousy or regaining the
trust. For me, it would be a non-negotiable condition for him moving
back in.

Further contact with her would be a sign to me that he isn't serious
about working on the marriage, and I'd throw in the towel and get the
divorce papers drawn up. The thing is, he can't keep her as an
insurance policy and fallback placeholder for if things don't work out
with you. He has to be 100% committed and operating without the safety
net of her in the background.

M.
Erin - 13 Jul 2008 21:49 GMT
Mary_Gor...@tvo.org wrote:
> Erin, all I know is that if my husband had an overly close
> relationship with someone outside marriage, whether the relationship
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> M.

The counsellors, the psychiatrist, the doctors, the
relatives. she herself(the best friend),  and an entire department
think that i am
the one with the jealousy problem; I have two people
who validate my perception; therefore, it is in my best
interests, to listen to the majority.  After all, if i am wrong
time will tell.

Erin
Bill in Co - 13 Jul 2008 22:08 GMT
> Mary_Gor...@tvo.org wrote:
>> Erin, all I know is that if my husband had an overly close
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> think that i am
> the one with the jealousy problem;

Then I'd say they are all out to lunch.   Or you're misinterpreting what
they think.

> I have two people
> who validate my perception; therefore, it is in my best
> interests, to listen to the majority.

Oh?    Wasn't the same thing said for many of the German troups during WWII?
Listen to the majority?  (and boy, did they!)    Was the "majority" right
then?   (rhetorical)

> After all, if i am wrong time will tell.

I think it already has, but you have to be able to see and take in the sign
posts.
Perhaps it's like ... seeing the forest, for the trees.
Erin - 13 Jul 2008 22:20 GMT
> > Mary_Gor...@tvo.org wrote:
> >> Erin, all I know is that if my husband had an overly close
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> Listen to the majority?  (and boy, did they!)    Was the "majority" right
> then?   (rhetorical)

Many Jews escaped Nazi persecution by shutting up.   And may i remind
you -- that the silence was not limited to the anti-semitism rampant
in
Germany and other European countries at that time.  It was not until
very late into the war, that the Russians and the Americans broke the
silence.  Do you really believe that the protests and even attemps to
kill Hitler, by the minority, actually did any good?

> > After all, if i am wrong time will tell.
>
> I think it already has, but you have to be able to see and take in the sign
> posts.
> Perhaps it's like ... seeing the forest, for the trees.

I have no evidence-- i have already posted the two types
of evidence i have: a) my impression, and b) reports from
his co-workers who say i am mistaken.

What kind of evidence do you have?

Erin
Bill in Co - 13 Jul 2008 23:11 GMT
>>> Mary_Gor...@tvo.org wrote:
>>>> Erin, all I know is that if my husband had an overly close
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>
> Many Jews escaped Nazi persecution by shutting up.

Sure, although that may depend on your defintion of "many".     How about
the six million who didn't?    Let's keep that in context.

> And may i remind
> you -- that the silence was not limited to the anti-semitism rampant in
> Germany and other European countries at that time.  It was not until
> very late into the war, that the Russians and the Americans broke the
> silence.  Do you really believe that the protests and even attempts to
> kill Hitler, by the minority, actually did any good?

Actually, there was one attempt (that bomb under the table incident) that
came pretty damn close.    And if it had succeeded, I think the war would
have ended sooner.

>>> After all, if i am wrong time will tell.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Erin

Nothing, except from what you have posted, and reading between the lines.
And being on the "outside" (where the forest is), and "looking in" (at what
you have written).
Erin - 14 Jul 2008 00:25 GMT
> >>> Mary_Gor...@tvo.org wrote:
> >>>> Erin, all I know is that if my husband had an overly close
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
> And being on the "outside" (where the forest is), and "looking in" (at what
> you have written).

I'm going to let you know how it turns out ok Bill; :-)

The men who tried to kill Hitler were very brave-- i forget reading
the story and there were many films made -- but didn't one of them
get injured seriously?  I forget.  Anyway, I think that if Hitler had
been killed, his cronies who were judged at the Nuremberg trial
would have carried on the policies of the Nazi Party in his stead.
Anti-semitism
was just one of the policies to reorganize Europe, and (with apologies
to anyone Jewish here, no intent to trivialize) not their major goal.

Erin
Bill in Co - 14 Jul 2008 01:57 GMT
>>>>> Mary_Gor...@tvo.org wrote:
>>>>>> Erin, all I know is that if my husband had an overly close
[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
>
> I'm going to let you know how it turns out ok Bill; :-)

OK.

> The men who tried to kill Hitler were very brave-- i forget reading
> the story and there were many films made -- but didn't one of them
> get injured seriously?

I believe so.    Plus I believe some (or perhaps all) of those who were "in
on it", were soon found out, and were summarily executed.

> I forget.  Anyway, I think that if Hitler had
> been killed, his cronies who were judged at the Nuremberg trial
> would have carried on the policies of the Nazi Party in his stead.

I'm not so sure that THEY could have pulled it off.    Perhaps, or perhaps
they would have "seen the light".   (I mean near the end of the war (and I
think that incident was somewhere around that time) it was pretty damn clear
that the writing was on the wall, and that the end was near (at least to
many), as I understand it).

> Anti-semitism
> was just one of the policies to reorganize Europe, and (with apologies
> to anyone Jewish here, no intent to trivialize) not their major goal.
>
> Erin
EB - 09 Jul 2008 16:02 GMT
On Jul 9, 1:58 am, pennyshiny...@gmail.com wrote:

> > I am completely confused and very unhappy.  I was expecting
> > support from the counsellor, but apparently i am needlessly
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> jen

Her husband told her another woman is his "soulmate"
and he didn't love her anymore. So now Erin has jealousy issues?

Whatever.
Xorra - 09 Jul 2008 17:44 GMT
> On Jul 9, 1:58 am, pennyshiny...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Whatever.

He didn't say he didn't love her anymore, he has maintained that he does
love her and wants to come back home.  He also got angry with Erin for
calling her his soulmate.  I believe her that he said it, but I also think
perhaps that it has taken on a greater presence here where it has been so
often repeated.

I think Jen is struggling with the same thing that many of us are.  The way
Erin has presented things, it's sooooo obvious that the relationship is
completely over the line and inappropriate.  So why is it that no one who is
actually there can see that?  Something just isn't adding up, and we don't
know what or why.

I feel badly for Erin, because she has been through an awful lot.  It's very
hard to be the rock for someone else when you have problems of your own that
you have to deal with.  Erin must be incredibly strong to have dealt as well
as she has for  so many years under such difficult conditions.  But I worry
that she might be in over her head now.

Xorra
grinky - 10 Jul 2008 17:06 GMT
>I am completely confused and very unhappy.  I was expecting
>support from the counsellor, but apparently i am needlessly
>jealous.  OK maybe -- counsellor has not examined the
>mountains of evidence.  I am still unhappy, but i am supposed
>to be happy-- how do i do that?  Get raped and shut up?

Excuse me for jumping in here and not knowing your whole situation, I've not
followed this group for a long time.  But, in a nutshell, is it the case that
your husband was doing another woman and you're being told your feelings of
jealousy are "wrong"???

Unless you gave him permission to go outside your marriage for sex, you have
absolutely no obligation to take him back.  I saw something about your father
not wanting you to divorce..?  First of all, it's not up to parents, period.  
It's YOUR life.  Second, I can't imagine a father who would want his daughter
to have to put up with a cheating whore for a husband.  I bet that he'd want
better for his daughter.

Forgive me if my conclusions are based on incomplete facts or misunderstanding
of your situation...  If so, disregard what i've said.   I don't have time or
inclination to go back and search through hundreds of posts to try and
understand.

Hoping you'll find courage and strength, this must be a horrible thing to go
through.
Erin - 10 Jul 2008 17:17 GMT
> >I am completely confused and very unhappy.  I was expecting
> >support from the counsellor, but apparently i am needlessly
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Hoping you'll find courage and strength, this must be a horrible thing to go
> through.

Hello grinky, wherever you lurked from :-),

Yes, it think you have even less information than I do.
I have absolutely no evidence that there is anything
sexual going on with my DH's friend.  I only have
evidence that they are best friends, and that my own
perception that there has been a distancing between me
and him since that friendship developed.

My husband is trying t convince me that he is trustworthy,
and i think my father thinks he is too.  The counsellors also
believe him.  So the majority who have heard this story
think that giving the marriage another chance is justified.

To tell you the truth, I don't think the truth matters in
these affairs when it cannot be extracted with satisfaction
to all parties, only what you do with it.  Is there a war game
like that?  Or is it just common diplomacy?

Erin
grinky - 10 Jul 2008 17:29 GMT
>> In article
> <f48e24f7-6f97-4737-abdc-9e08aa385534@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Erin
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
>Erin

I believe that if he's sharing emotional intimacy with her instead of with
you, then there's still a "reason" for you to be "jealous" even if there's no
sex.  Don't let any counselor or parent or anyone else tell you that your
feelings are not right.  Trust your gut, your intuition.  When you can tune
out all the outside static, you'll find truth there.
Erin - 10 Jul 2008 17:40 GMT
> >> In article
> > <f48e24f7-6f97-4737-abdc-9e08aa385534@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Erin
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
> feelings are not right.  Trust your gut, your intuition.  When you can tune
> out all the outside static, you'll find truth there.

I appreciate your advice, and it is one of the options which i will
keep
open in my mind, as possibilities have been spinning in the absence
of concrete evidence.  I am committed however, to the most "rational"
option which is being presented to me now.  If in time, it becomes
indubitable that I have been wrong, then I will need no hesitations;
though I hope my supicions have been wrong.

Erin
Erin - 08 Jul 2008 22:59 GMT
> >>> I'm getting stronger emotionally; that's not
> >>> good for Mr. and Mrs. Soulmate because
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> - Michaela

I'm very confused about what to do because everyone
i speak to has a different opinion, and i have no firm opinion
at all because i have no information.  The therapist's advice
should be the best but they don't have x-ray eyes.
The therapist thinks I am jealous, which is true, but
i think justified.  Maybe that doesn't matter?  The
"compromise" to alleviate that seem incredible to me.
I am really lost, and worse than that i have lost trust.

Erin
AllYou! - 09 Jul 2008 13:23 GMT
In
news:c742bc97-cd9d-4d29-9c96-5fe6e6218cbd@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com,
Erin <squiggle@sympatico.ca> mused:
>>>>> I'm getting stronger emotionally; that's not
>>>>> good for Mr. and Mrs. Soulmate because
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> i speak to has a different opinion, and i have no firm opinion
> at all because i have no information.

You have very much information.  You have all the information that
you've posted here, plus lots of information that you've said is too
private to post here.  No one ever has *all* the information.  All
any of us can do is make decsions based upon the information we
have.  And so with all of the vast amount of information that you
have, the question, as always, is:  What do YOU think YOU should do?
And then my advice is to do that.

>  The therapist's advice
> should be the best but they don't have x-ray eyes.

False.  Their advice should be taken into consideration, but not
that it is necessarily the best.  That is all.  Moreover, it seems
very strange that you would take that position when you have had no
problem telling us how often that his doctors or other professionals
are wrong.

> The therapist thinks I am jealous, which is true, but
> i think justified.  Maybe that doesn't matter?  The
> "compromise" to alleviate that seem incredible to me.
> I am really lost, and worse than that i have lost trust.

You are lost because you've decided to get lost.
AllYou! - 07 Jul 2008 12:19 GMT
In
news:811e0536-46ad-4b67-968d-c3119bfa65f2@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com,
Erin <im906768@gmail.com> mused:
> I'm getting stronger emotionally; that's not
> good for Mr. and Mrs. Soulmate because
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Maybe I was the one who was mistreated
> in the marriage after all.

No sh.t.
Doug Laidlaw - 08 Jul 2008 14:54 GMT
> In
> news:811e0536-46ad-4b67-968d-c3119bfa65f2@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> No sh.t.

When you are strong (and not manipulative) your husband may see the woman he
has been missing, and come home.  Really.

Doug L.
S.D. - 20 Jul 2008 21:58 GMT
> I'm getting stronger emotionally; that's not
> good for Mr. and Mrs. Soulmate because
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Maybe I was the one who was mistreated
> in the marriage after all.

Keep telling yourself that... but, somehow I suspect the mirror will say
otherwise.  When people have to make such statements though text to
online - it's often imaginary still.
 
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