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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / August 2008what do you do when....
....the medications are working, and your thought processes are becoming more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you can still find no purpose or worth in your life, and any realistic look at the future shows only more of the same, probably worsening with age, until the end of your life? Xorra > ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are becoming > more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you can still find > no purpose or worth in your life, and any realistic look at the future > shows only more of the same, probably worsening with age, until the end of > your life? Make a change, as big as you can take, then push yourself to take a little more. "I'm just wondering why I feel so all alone Why I'm a stranger in my own life Jump in, let's go Lay back, enjoy the show Everybody gets high, everybody gets low These are the days when anything goes Everyday is a winding road" -S Crow Hugs to you Xorra. Vickie >> ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are >> becoming more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Make a change, as big as you can take, then push yourself to take a > little more. What kind of change, I wonder? My old therapist felt that the internal changes had to precede the external ones. > "I'm just wondering why I feel so all alone > Why I'm a stranger in my own life [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Hugs to you Xorra. Thanks, Vickie. Xorra > Vickie >>> ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are >>> becoming more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > What kind of change, I wonder? My old therapist felt that the internal > changes had to precede the external ones. Not sure if that is true. One before the other. Yeah it would be nice to change the internal ones, but they are the hardest and take the longest! I was talking about external because this is something you don't need lots of help with. But it is up to you to move on it. And with doing the external change, I think it sometimes helps with the hard internal stuff that most seem to work on their whole life. Wondering if you agreed to the contract job? Vickie (snip) >>>> ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are >>>> becoming more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > And with doing the external change, I think it sometimes helps with > the hard internal stuff that most seem to work on their whole life. I don't know, I keep trying the external stuff. It doesn't seem to be getting me anywhere. > Wondering if you agreed to the contract job? I've avoided even speaking to him. I don't feel like I can. :-S Xorra > Vickie > > (snip) > > "Xorra" <zor...@comcast.net> wrote> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > What kind of change, I wonder? "The purpose of life is to live a life of purpose" and "Do what you love. The money will follow" are both wise sayings about figuring this issue out. It doesn't have to be about money, though. It a broader sense it means reward or feeling of satifaction - Do what you love and the feeling of satisfaction will follow. Do what you love and tkae that as your purpose. So do you already know of activities you love? Start in on them and do them more and more. If you don't know where to start consider taking a survey like the MAPP test. I think it stands for Multiple Aptitude and Personality Profile text. It asks you about all sorts of attitudes and then suggests jobs and/or hobbies and/or volunteer activities you're likely to like. (For me it suggests engineer, accountant, clergy and a few other callings that would sound random to most folks but that sounded dead on when I read the list). Go over the list and start doing one of them or a couple of them. Then your purpose becomes what you do and what you do comes from what you love to do. If you're not good at it, shrug - Back in high school I loved playing on the soccer team but I sucked at it. For volunteer activities it hardly matters and skill builds over time. There was an article in Discover magazine about two years ago that discussed how building true expertese in many subjects takes a decade so don't sweat being bad at it when you start. Enjoy the activity for its own sake and skill will build over time. > My old therapist felt that the internal > changes had to precede the external ones. It works both ways - What I think I end up doing. What I do ends up effecting my thoughts. It being a feedback loop there isn't one side that needs to proceed the other. > If you don't know where to start consider taking a survey like > the MAPP test. I think it stands for Multiple Aptitude and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > don't sweat being bad at it when you start. Enjoy the activity > for its own sake and skill will build over time. I'm not sure how to begin to respond to this. I have tried so many times and in so many ways to find activities that could fill the void in my life. From fun, to educational, to vocational, to volunteer.... I go in with high hopes then... And yeah, I stick them out. A year, two, or more.... But there just seems to be something inside me that doesn't get enjoyment from anything. Xorra >> ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are becoming >> more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you can still find [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Jump in, let's go > Lay back, enjoy the show WHAT show??? > Everybody gets high, everybody gets low > These are the days when anything goes > > Everyday is a winding road" > > -S Crow Yeah, but sometimes it seems these winding roads lead nowhere. Maybe sitting in a canoe on a nice and serene lake, or "sitting on the dock of the bay", would feel better. > Hugs to you Xorra. And from me too, Xorra. >>> ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are becoming >>> more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you can still [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > WHAT show??? Life. >> Everybody gets high, everybody gets low >> These are the days when anything goes [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yeah, but sometimes it seems these winding roads lead nowhere. I think the trick may be being okay when it leads nowhere, then trying again. > Maybe sitting in a canoe on a nice and serene lake, or "sitting on the > dock of the bay", would feel better. Right. Because I wouldn't describe those places as nowhere. Someone else might, like a happily chronic Manhattanite, but it isn't about someone else, is it? Vickie >>>> ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are >>>> becoming [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Right. Because I wouldn't describe those places as nowhere. Ummm. Well, I'm not so sure. > Someone else might, like a happily chronic Manhattanite, but it isn't > about > someone else, is it? > > Vickie Maybe. I don't know anymore. On Aug 17, 1:39 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are becoming > >> more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you can still find [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > And from me too, Xorra. From me too, sincerely. > ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are > becoming more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Xorra Keep switching off the negative thoughts and deciding to be happy about nothing. Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again until it becomes the new way of thinking. - Michaela > > ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are > > becoming more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > - Michaela How does one decide to be happy about nothing? My CBT succeeded in helping me to see that things that felt so overwhelming were not nearly as big as they seemed, but no one has ever been able to convince me of things that there is no real evidence for. Xorra > ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are becoming > more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you can still find no [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Xorra Ask your dr. if you should raise the dose or switch to another medication; if you feel worthless and your life has not meaning--- that's partially treated depression; Erin > > ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are becoming > > more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you can still find no [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Erin Well, the medications are still in flux. I've started something new this week. I'd like to think there is a magic pill that's gonna fix everything, but somehow I doubt it. Xorra zor...@comcast.net wrote: > > > ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are becoming > > > more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you can still find no [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Xorra I don't; take a look at people who take opiates - life is wonderful for them, no matter what happens; that's the effect of the drug not a change in international politics; Erin > ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are becoming > more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you can still find no > purpose or worth in your life, and any realistic look at the future shows > only more of the same, probably worsening with age, until the end of your > life? What would make your life feel purposeful or worthwhile? I think the answer to this has to depend on the individual of course, so the answer for me would be different than the answer for you. Some of the things people find purpose or worth in are part of your life, though they may not be things you find purpose or worth in. I think of -raising children -learning about the world -work -making one's home a place one enjoys -time with friends as being things that I find worth in which are certainly available to you (I'm not saying that you necessarily find worth in any of these things, but if not, that gets back to the question at the beginning of the post). >> ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are >> becoming more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > things, but if not, that gets back to the question at the beginning of > the post). Hmm...How can I say this without opening myself up to a lot of grief? Um... In order to find worth in these things, one must feel that they are doing them well. I've talked some about the problems with my daughter. There are a multitude of people (on this board and elsewhere) who without living my life, assume they know enough to place the blame for her problems on me. Even my husband, at one point, told me flat out that he thought I'd screwed her up. He doesn't believe that anymore, and I know in my head that it isn't true, still, it's hard to feel worth about something that you feel like you have screwed up. Xorra > >> ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are > >> becoming more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > living my life, assume they know enough to place the blame for her problems > on me. This brings up what may be a more fundamental issue: In order to find worth in what you do, you need to be doing it because _you_ find it worthwhile. I'm not saying that external kudos is worthless, it isn't. But unless you find what you are doing worthwhile, ultimately external kudos will seem empty. Same with the blame. Somehow you have to have enough confidence in how you are doing that it seems worthwhile to you even if others criticize it. I don't know how you get to this stage, but if you rely on others to tell you that what you are doing is worthwhile, you'll always have only a very tenuous sense of worth, at best. (Again, I'm not saying it isn't good to have others tell you what you do is worthwhile - it is. But there has to be something beyond that.) > Even my husband, at one point, told me flat out that he thought I'd > screwed her up. He doesn't believe that anymore, and I know in my head that > it isn't true, still, it's hard to feel worth about something that you feel > like you have screwed up. Parenting is tricky, right? You won't know if you did a good job until your child is an independent adult. And the reward of doing a good job is that your child then becomes independent and moves away from your life! Furthermore, even when your child is an adult I suppose it is hard to know if you did a good job since there may be reasons that even if you do a good job the results may not look so impressive. So it is a very subjective determination. > This brings up what may be a more fundamental issue: > > In order to find worth in what you do, you need to be doing it because > _you_ find it worthwhile. I'm not saying that external kudos is > worthless, it isn't. But unless you find what you are doing > worthwhile, ultimately external kudos will seem empty. Which gets back to the fixing the internal first. As it stands, I don't find worth or enjoyment in anything really. Unfortunately, I don't think I ever really did. Not that there aren't things I enjoy, but nothing that is a passion. The only thing that is really important to me, happens to be the thing I'm most spectacularly bad at, which is forming relationships. Xorra >>> ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are >>> becoming more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Xorra Do try to keep in mind that your daughter WILL grow out of this phase, Xorra. And it IS a phase. So - don't lose sight of that perspective. On Aug 17, 2:41 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > Do try to keep in mind that your daughter WILL grow out of this phase, > Xorra. And it IS a phase. So - don't lose sight of that perspective. I'm sure she will change as she gets older, but what's going on with her is not a normal thing. Xorra >>> ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are >>> becoming more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > true, still, it's hard to feel worth about something that you feel > like you have screwed up. When someone has a child who is more difficult to raise I think it does help to think about the kind of value that the parent adds. In a lot of cases we can only mitigate some of their problems and make life a little easier for our children by teaching them coping skills, looking after their physical well-being and running interference with the rest of the world when it's necessary - as it often is with the children who aren't obligingly easy. The rest is up to them in the long run, for better or worse. *Of course* you haven't screwed up in raising your daughter! I don't suppose any of us ever feel as if we've done out absolute best but I am certain you are an excellent mother and that even your "poor best" is of a high parenting standard by anyone's measure. I think you're very hard on yourself over this. Also, referring back to your opening post's paragraph above, you might be thinking your medication is working better than it is. It's only my layperson's guess but as well as altering your general mood you probably do still have some way to go in thinking more positively as a default approach to life and that will take time and practice. But, realistically, if you have too much to feel sad about in your life and you haven't been able to change that then it may not be possible to find very much joy or satisfaction in the small successes and bright spots. It may take as much as a major life change to really make much difference in the end. So, are you sad and feeling hopeless for good reasons, or not? If you are, and you have some choice about at least some of them then it might be time to seriously consider changing your circumstances rather than trying to squeeze that elusive happiness out of a dry stone. > So, are you sad and feeling hopeless for good reasons, or not? If > you are, and you have some choice about at least some of them then it > might be time to seriously consider changing your circumstances > rather than trying to squeeze that elusive happiness out of a dry > stone. Thanks for the encouragement about my daughter. It's hard for me to judge what reasons might be good, so I don't know. I don't think I'm healthy enough to embark on a new life though. Xorra >> So, are you sad and feeling hopeless for good reasons, or not? If >> you are, and you have some choice about at least some of them then it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >what reasons might be good, so I don't know. I don't think I'm healthy >enough to embark on a new life though. This reminds me of something I only knew after I left my marriage. Fortunately, I got six months of practice while married (but living abroad, apart from my family) to see how my life improved when I was no longer exposed daily to the "sick air" of my marriage. It is practically impossible to become emotionally healthy when you're living, 24x7, in an unemotionally unhealthy environment. It doesn't matter if other people wouldn't find it toxic; if it's toxic for *you*, it's toxic. If your life is making you sick, staying within the framework that sickens you will not make you healthy. I wish there was some way you could take a practice run, as I did, to see this for yourself. Barb >>> So, are you sad and feeling hopeless for good reasons, or not? If >>> you are, and you have some choice about at least some of them then [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > matter if other people wouldn't find it toxic; if it's toxic for > *you*, it's toxic. That last is an important distinction. Several people that know us in real life have told me that their husbands are the same, but that they just blow them off, ignore it, and live their life like they want. I'm left feeling like I should be able to handle this. > If your life is making you sick, staying within the framework that > sickens you will not make you healthy. I wish there was some way you > could take a practice run, as I did, to see this for yourself. I know. My latest thought though, is that I am just going to have to stay. Xorra >So, are you sad and feeling hopeless for good reasons, or not? If you are, >and you have some choice about at least some of them then it might be time >to seriously consider changing your circumstances rather than trying to >squeeze that elusive happiness out of a dry stone. This is sad but true. I wouldn't necessarily recommend divorce to anyone because it's a personal, complicated decision, but I do know this: I haven't really needed much in the way of anti depressants since I became single. Being in a hopelessly sad, unhappy relationship made it nearly impossible for me to find any feeling of happiness in my life. In fact, the first time that I felt truly happy as a single adult, it scared and suprised me and I immediately tried to squelch it down. I immediately felt guilty, and I think it's just because unhappiness, sadness, and depression had become such an integral part of who I was that I didn't even know that there could be/should be something else. Like you (Xorra), I felt that I had never been happy (whcih really wasn't true in my case, but that's how I felt). I had just been depressed and unhappy for so long that it took some time to learn how to be any other way. Now? I'm lonely a lot, and I still do struggle with depression. But I also have lots of periods of time that I would consider to be happy times. So I do beleive that unhappy life situations can definitely lead to depression which feels incurable and unsolveable.  SignatureLauri in WA > >So, are you sad and feeling hopeless for good reasons, or not? If you are, > >and you have some choice about at least some of them then it might be time [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > -- > Lauri in WA I believe in drugz. Erin > ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are becoming > more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you can still find no [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Xorra I don't know... all I can think of is to hang in there, keep going day by day, and wait for things get better? Maybe try to hold on to the idea that your hopelessness *isn't* really rational, it's a product of the depression which hasn't fully lifted yet, and that in time hope will return along with reasons to be hopeful. Even if you can't "see" the reasons for hope yet, they do still exist. {Hugs}, Cailleach >> ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are >> becoming more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > hopeful. Even if you can't "see" the reasons for hope yet, they do > still exist. But look at it realistically. Depression generally worsens with age. It doesn't normally get better. And the longer you've had it, the less likely you are to be cured. So realistically, *is* there actually hope? I mean, not slim "we can always hope for a miracle" hope, but realistic hope? Xorra > {Hugs}, > > Cailleach >>> ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are >>> becoming more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > likely > you are to be cured. I don't think it is often "cured", per se; instead, it is just ameliorated, and kept more in check. > So realistically, *is* there actually hope? I mean, > not slim "we can always hope for a miracle" hope, but realistic hope? > > Xorra "The answer, my friend, is blowin in the wind....". (not trying to be cute here; it just sure often seems to be that way) > But look at it realistically. Depression generally worsens with age. It > doesn't normally get better. And the longer you've had it, the less likely > you are to be cured. <Grin> I'm pretty sure there's a circularity going on here somewhere but I'm afraid I'll disappear into a puff of logic if I try to pursue it! > So realistically, *is* there actually hope? I mean, not slim "we can always hope for a > miracle" hope, but realistic hope? I think it's more realistic to hope than not to hope. You've been deeply depressed before and it's lifted, and not by any miracle. The medication is starting to work, but there's still a long way to go. OK, I can't promise that you'll always be happy and depression will never return, but then who gets a guarantee of happiness for their whole life? That's what hope is - the ability to keep going without a guarantee. On quite a different tack, this connects with the thread on grief. As well as being part of depression, hopelessness is another of the stages of grief. (I don't really like calling them "stages" because IME they don't happen separately or in a strict sequence, instead they all overlap and recur and get mixed up, but never mind, let's call them "aspects" of grief instead and I'm OK :-)) Profound grief doesn't just feel like hopelessness about a specific thing, it gives a sense of hopelessness and purposelessness about *everything*. So I wonder - are you grieving now for your daughter? Could your general sense of hopelessness and worthlessness be not just a symptom of irational depression, but more a part of your grief for the happy teenage girl with a bright future that you hoped to raise? Anyway, whatever is causing it just you keep taking care of yourself, Cailleach >> So realistically, *is* there actually hope? I mean, not slim "we >> can always hope for a miracle" hope, but realistic hope? > > I think it's more realistic to hope than not to hope. You've been > deeply depressed before and it's lifted, and not by any miracle. I'm tired of the cycle though -- working so hard for so long , only to have it all fall apart again. > The > medication is starting to work, but there's still a long way to go. Okay, and I'm still ramping up to full dosage on the new one, maybe it will make more of a difference. > OK, I can't promise that you'll always be happy and depression will > never return, but then who gets a guarantee of happiness for their > whole life? That's what hope is - the ability to keep going without a > guarantee. I'm not asking for a life free of troubles, only...well, you know. To not have to keep fighting the same battles. > So I wonder - are you grieving now for your daughter? Could your > general sense of hopelessness and worthlessness be not just a symptom > of irational depression, but more a part of your grief for the happy > teenage girl with a bright future that you hoped to raise? It's possible. She's only one of several stressors, it's hard to separate them. > Anyway, whatever is causing it just you keep taking care of yourself, Where as my last therapist was big on changing your thought processes, this one is big on changing your actions. She wants me to do the things that scare me over and over until they aren't scary anymore. So the good news is that I did write back about that contract job, and it looks like it's going to happen. Xorra > Cailleach > I'm tired of the cycle though -- working so hard for so long , only to have > it all fall apart again. Sure, that's very tough in itself. An uphill task. > I'm not asking for a life free of troubles, only...well, you know. To not > have to keep fighting the same battles. We don't necessarily get that, either :-(. What we get is more experience of fighting and maybe some new weapons! > It's possible. She's only one of several stressors, it's hard to separate > them. Yes, there's the day-to-day stress of the things she says and does. But also her future is uncertain and that makes it especially deep emotionally for you as her mother, maybe deeper than many other stresses. > Where as my last therapist was big on changing your thought processes, this > one is big on changing your actions. Sounds good too. And since you've focussed on thought processes with your previous therapist, it's good to add a new approach. > She wants me to do the things that > scare me over and over until they aren't scary anymore. I'm don't know if I could ever apply for enough jobs to make it non- scary :-) > So the good news is > that I did write back about that contract job, and it looks like it's going > to happen. :-) Oh that's very good for you! I am very pleased to hear that. And well done. Cailleach > ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are > becoming more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, > you can still find no purpose or worth in your life, and any > realistic look at the future shows only more of the same, > probably worsening with age, until the end of your life? The problem may be that you envision some grandiose "purpose" for your life that just isn't there for anyone, not just you. Leaving aside the religious aspects of this, here's one way to look at things. The Universe will continue to exist without the human race. The human race will continue to exist without any one of us. You can argue that people like Gandhi, or Christ, or other individuals made significant contributions to the quality of the human experience, but unless that's what you expected of yourself, the most that any of us will do will be to make a very small, and fleeting, positive difference to the course of human events. It's like throwing a stone in a stormy ocean. It can be argued that the ripple effect of doing so will make a difference, and that difference, theoretically, will last forever, but in the grand scheme of things, over time, no one will notice. I'm not saying that's true just for you. I'm saying that's true for every one. Then there's another perspective to the term "purpose" in that you mean that you should be able to achieve some higher state of happiness, but that you don't see yourself as getting any happier, and therefore, you don't see any purpose to going on. If that's what you mean, I guess my only answer is similar to what I used to tell my kids when we'd go canoeing. As soon as we'd be in the water for fifteen minutes, they ask when we'd "get there", and ask what "was there" that made the work worth it. I'd then have to explain that we "were" there, and that the journey "was" the point of it all. It took a while, but once they got it, and stopped expecting some mythical point or purpose to the journey, they could actually enjoy the journey itself, work and all. I think that's your answer, X. Who ever told you there should be more than that? > ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are becoming > more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you can still find no > purpose or worth in your life, and any realistic look at the future shows > only more of the same, probably worsening with age, until the end of your > life? You still sound very depressed to me. What does your doctor think? Do you ever have times when you feel really happy - where you sigh with contentment and think, "life is good?" >> ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are >> becoming more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You still sound very depressed to me. What does your doctor think? We've only barely started. > Do you ever have times when you feel really happy - where you sigh > with contentment and think, "life is good?" Um...yes, there are moments of happiness. They just get overwhelmed by the rest of it. Xorra > >> ....the medications are working, and your thought processes are > >> becoming more rational, but no matter how rationally you think, you [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Xorra Xorra, For what it's worth, knowing you here is "real life" and many here have experienced similar feelings, tho not as you are right now. You say to Emma (sorry if I'm wrong-naming, I'm trying to remember) that you do remember some good times. When I was going through my greatest loss (tho perhpas I'll be going thru a greater one immenently), I really did have to suck in the brief good things, sometimes five minutes at a time. When things hit the fan this summer, a great comfort to me was knowing, remembering, how harmed and hurt and lost I've felt, and how I've come out each time (I wish I could say shining, or better but...all I can say is) knowing where I'm at and what I'm up to more clearly. It's not much, and coming from me, maybe not anything. But if it can give you hope, remember the last time you went in and came out, and things were better. They can get better yet. Fill |
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