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Family Forum / Marriage / Marriage / August 2008the job
Hmmmm, what goes on at work can be very important to a man's self-esteem. He may have been crushed by a higher authority. He may have just taken it out on the most convenient and meek target -- his wife. He's not happy at many aspects of the work environment. Well, i recommended a different, more academic occupation. I know, yet another scenario. Erin Erin, when are you going to stop worrying about HIM, and instead, "look inward", and worry about YOU? > Hmmmm, what goes on at work can be very important > to a man's self-esteem. He may have been crushed [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Erin > Erin, when are you going to stop worrying about HIM, and instead, "look > inward", and worry about YOU? I fear that if that time comes, it will be the time when i will not be able to forgive his scapegoating me for his personal problems. It will be like that scene in Schindler's List. It will be the time when i no longer love him. Maybe, i'm trying to push that time away as far as possible. Erin > Erin, when are you going to stop worrying about HIM, and instead, "look > inward", and worry about YOU? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Erin "The Devil himself knoweth not the mind of man". That quote may not be exact, but it is close enough. It is from a Judge, saying that if a person plans a crime but doesn't at least do something positive, he has done nothing wrong - yet, because nobody can prove his thoughts. Similarly, Erin, there is nothing to support any of your imaginings about your DH. If he has told you anything about his reasons for staying away, then develop what he has told you. What you are really saying is: "I am a loving, desirable wife. My DH has no reason not to come back home, so some external influence - his girlfriend, his job or whatever - is preventing him." That is a typical defense mechanism. Marriages don't run on indefinitely without maintenance. If they can, mine should have. My wife tells me even now, at over 60, that she still expected a fairytale "happy ever after." I would have thought that whatever she believed at the beginning, life would have made her more realistic by now. Others expect a continuing "Hollywood" state. That belongs only in the honeymoon. There are deeper forms of love that take time and practice to develop. Bill is right. Look at yourself. Look for the things that originally attracted him to you. They may still be there, but are they visible to him? Plenty of marriages founder on that alone. A series of tiny differences, each one insignificant by itself, mount up into a big pile. A big, savage rift doesn't come from nowhere - it follows the little things. There is no judgment in that. You both did your very best. We are all human. Elizabeth Barrett Browning (I think) wrote: 'Tis not love's going hurts my days But that it went in little ways. And undoing the damage will take a lot of little steps, and time. The stitch in time wasn't done by whichever one should have, now it needs the nine. In answer to your last sentence, there is nothing wrong with suggesting a different alternative. If he chooses not to accept your suggestion, that does not mean he doesn't value it, all the same. Hopefully, he will tell you so: "Darling, that is a very good suggestion, but I prefer the other one," and he will tell you why. There may be considerations that you had overlooked. On what you knew, your suggestion was still very worthwhile. Your suggestion may take into account something he had overlooked. Is it vital to your self-esteem that he take up all your suggestions? Doug L. -- Life is too short to be little. -- Benjamin Disraeli. > > Erin, when are you going to stop worrying about HIM, and instead, "look > > inward", and worry about YOU? [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > Life is too short to be little. > -- Benjamin Disraeli. Thanks for the thoughtful post Doug. I guess it will take time to figure out the mind of this man. As for "my self-esteem"-- no, really i just want to see him happy for once. This med his taking just keeps him from being depressed. He's been miserable all his life. That's why i keep suggesting that he see a psychiatrist who knows pharmacology. Remeron made turned him into a different man-- the first time i ever saw him as if a burden of anguish was lifted from him; i cannot understand why he stopped just because it made him sleepy; he could have been given some adjunct, just as he is now for insomnia and anxity as side effects of the present drug. Anyway, as you say, he has to find his own way regardless of my suggestions. Thanks-- nice quotes. Erin > > > Erin, when are you going to stop worrying about HIM, and instead, "look > > > inward", and worry about YOU? [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > > Erin p.s. i was searching for the phrase "The Devil himself knoweth not the mind of man" and found many interesting legal sites on the relevance of this phrase, this (though not the most philosophical one) is one of them: http://www.forwarderlaw.com/library/view.php?article_id=326 some books: "Dimensions of Criminal Law by Pickard, Goldman, Cairns-Way, Philip Goldman, Toni (the law trieth not the mind of man) - indeed, but hopefully medicine treats the sick one- Erin >>> Erin, when are you going to stop worrying about HIM, and instead, >>> "look inward", and worry about YOU? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> What you are really saying is: "I am a loving, desirable wife. My >> DH has no reason not to come back home, so some external influence - >> his girlfriend, his job or whatever - is preventing him." >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> she still expected a fairytale "happy ever after." I would have >> thought that whatever she believed at the beginning, life would have >> made her more realistic by now. Others expect a continuing >> "Hollywood" state. That belongs only in the honeymoon. There are [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> why. There may be considerations that you had overlooked. On what >> you knew, your suggestion was still very worthwhile. Your suggestion >> may take into account something he had overlooked. Is it vital to >> your self-esteem that he take up all your suggestions? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> Life is too short to be little. >> -- Benjamin Disraeli. Nice post. > Thanks for the thoughtful post Doug. I guess it will take time to > figure out > the mind of this man. Isn't the point is to figure out your own mind? > Anyway, as you say, he has to find his own way regardless of my > suggestions. > > Thanks-- nice quotes. > > Erin I imagine that the "right" psychologist will help him to start thinking differently and less self-destructively. - Michaela > Hmmmm, what goes on at work can be very important > to a man's self-esteem. He may have been crushed > by a higher authority. He may have just taken it out > on the most convenient and meek target -- his wife. > He's not happy at many aspects of the work environment. > Well, I recommend a different, more academic occupation. ------------------------ The notion that most of us "lead lives of quiet desperation" (Thoreau) is nothing new. I daresay that most jobs, even academic occupations, have a high quotient of dissatisfaction and stress. But there are plenty of folks who manage to handle abuses and pettiness at work, come home at the end of a day and leave it all behind at the office. What it takes understanding that the object of one's displeasure is not at home, and some self-awareness. =R= > Hmmmm, what goes on at work can be very important > to a man's self-esteem. He may have been crushed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Well, i recommended a different, more academic occupation. > I know, yet another scenario. What goes on at work is important to every person that takes pride from accomplishment regardless of profession. It's true, some man and women can feel "crushed" by a superior; but feeling crushed after facing authority is an unhealthy reaction to authority. If someone uses that word to describe their experience, no doubt they have deeper issues influencing their emotional perspective and likely distorting the situation. People that have healthy self-esteem and self-images keep such situations in context. Only immature or unhealthy people finds a lessor, as you say "meek" target - his wife or her husband, and takes it out on SO. They are also likely to be the type that abuses; and their SO probably the type that accepts such treatment believing its normal which means he/she has issues as well... an unhealthy codependance comes to mind. As for Academic occupations; they are great for liberals and those that like to hide in bureaucracy while doing as little as possible during minimal hours and find safety in tenure. Also, great for those that fear failure or never want to leave school and grow up. Not great if one likes to see and feel real rewards for performance and accomplishment while having control over their destiny. > > Hmmmm, what goes on at work can be very important > > to a man's self-esteem. He may have been crushed [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Not great if one likes to see and feel real rewards for performance and > accomplishment while having control over their destiny. That's a very succinct way of putting things. I agree with everything you say. And yes, it is not great to have personal problems of a nature that prevents you from destroying your life's potential.... but what does such a person do when he has e.g.-- been brought up to have little faith in himself, or if he is suffering from depression, or even if the treatment for the depression is such a burden that he may as well be ill. These are practical poroblems that may not be treatable or treated. Erin >>> Hmmmm, what goes on at work can be very important >>> to a man's self-esteem. He may have been crushed [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> like to hide in bureaucracy while doing as little as possible during >> minimal hours and find safety in tenure. That's a pretty stupid (and quite narrow-minded) comment. I could equally well say the same about any avocation. >> Also, great for those that >> fear failure or never want to leave school and grow up. >> Not great if one likes to see and feel real rewards for performance and >> accomplishment while having control over their destiny. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Erin But you need to work on YOU and your own situation, not him, Erin. > but what does such a person do when he has e.g.-- been brought up to have little faith in himself, or > if he is suffering from depression, or even if the treatment for the depression is such a burden that he may as well be ill. Very few people are brought up from childhood to have little faith in themselves, and follow that throughout adulthood because that's all they know. That's not to say problematic unhealthy parents can't affect self-esteem issues in children, it's say that steps can be taken to put a stop to unhealthy behaviors once the person leaves home. From that point on choices have to be owned entirely by the individual, including getting needed assistance to understand and manage what ever health issues they have. > > but what does such a person do when he has e.g.-- been brought up to have little faith in himself, or > > if he is suffering from depression, or even if the treatment for the depression is such a burden that he may as well be ill. > > Very few people are brought up from childhood to have little faith in > themselves, and follow that throughout adulthood because that's all they > know. I would say precisely the reverse. Most people are brought up to have little faith in themselves. This is precisely why most people lack the confidence to change the things in their life that make them unhappy. >> but what does such a person do when he has e.g.-- been brought up to >> have little faith in himself, or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Very few people are brought up from childhood to have little faith in > themselves, Can't agree there. and follow that throughout adulthood because that's all > they know. That's not to say problematic unhealthy parents can't > affect self-esteem issues in children, I'd say that's understating it. it's say that steps can be > taken to put a stop to unhealthy behaviors once the person leaves > home. From that point on choices have to be owned entirely by the > individual, including getting needed assistance to understand and > manage what ever health issues they have. I don't agree. Some people never seem to realise that they can choose how to think/behave/be. And when they do manage to make "better" choices, it's not necessarily conscious ones they were making. - Michaela In news:09f4ae1f-7dcd-4425-960c-1d250397a22f@v57g2000hse.googlegroups.com, Erin <squiggle@sympatico.ca> mused: > Hmmmm, what goes on at work can be very important > to a man's self-esteem. And it's not to a woman? > He may have been crushed > by a higher authority. He may have just taken it out > on the most convenient and meek target -- his wife. > He's not happy at many aspects of the work environment. > Well, i recommended a different, more academic occupation. > I know, yet another scenario. There are an inexhautable number of them. But the bottom line? YOU have decided to remain in the situation in which you find yourself, and you will continue to be unhappy until to come to grips with that. > In > news:09f4ae1f-7dcd-4425-960c-1d250397a22f@v57g2000hse.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > and you will continue to be unhappy until to come to grips with > that. AY, for me academia was my life. It was one of the greatest disappointment in my life to lose the doctorate when coming so near to completion. I had one course, and the dissertation to finish, whose abstract had passed the committee. I think that crash was as big or bigger, than the bipolar fallout, and my DH's mental health crisis. I worked many yrs. after that and had more medical disasters (15 yrs. addicted on Xanax) without my knowledge. But we had a pretty good life anyway. I am now too old to start life again. But last fall I did go back to university and took a course (got 84%) which made me feel good. I took that course, not because i need it, but to prove that i was not mentally unstable, as my DH told my dr. and my dr. tried to give me antipsychotics beause of my paranoid jealousy-- i turned them down. And i am proud to say that i passed that hurdle, and hope that my DH is pleased that I am really OK, and that as the counsellor thought, any woman would get upset at what happened or at least how things happened-- no need to invoke mental illness. But as for academia -- it really is too late for me now. But i enjoy reading and researching on the net. Erin > I worked many yrs. after that > and had more medical disasters (15 yrs. addicted on Xanax) > without my knowledge. How can you be on Xanax for 15 years without your knowledge? Vickie > > I worked many yrs. after that > > and had more medical disasters (15 yrs. addicted on Xanax) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Vickie I was certainly on it by prescription. The problem with benzos (as with any addicting drugs) is that you reach tolerance. At that point your dose has to be increased. If it not increased then you suffer withdrawals. If the doctor or the patient is not aware that it is withdrawals that is the problem of panic attacks, you get a fresh diagnosis. This is a classic problem with a rich history of advocacy (see benzo.org.uk) on which I participated and contributed to changed in the Substance Category of Health Canada. Benzos followed barbiturates with the pharmaceutical line that they were not addicting. Time and many cases showed the contrary. It's an interesting story in our time of the power of the net. I did eventually get off Xanax with their help, and my dr.'s. but not Clonazepam-- that's a different pharmaceutical nightmare, and this is not the group for it. Erin > > > I worked many yrs. after that > > > and had more medical disasters (15 yrs. addicted on Xanax) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > it is withdrawals that is the problem of panic attacks, you get > a fresh diagnosis. Pardon, but I don't understand "fresh diagnosis". It is my understanding that if you reached tolerance on a benzo (which is an amazingly high amount), they would not start the small decrements without doing some touch and go with other meds and other non-med help. > This is a classic problem with a rich history > of advocacy (see benzo.org.uk) on which I participated and > contributed to changed in the Substance Category of Health > Canada. Benzos followed barbiturates with the pharmaceutical > line that they were not addicting. Say what? Maybe this was before my time of involvement. I would say I was introduced to benzos around 16 years ago. My p-doc told me very clearly that benzos (Xanax in paticular) were addicting. > Time and many cases showed > the contrary. It's an interesting story in our time of the power of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > not Clonazepam-- that's a different pharmaceutical nightmare, > and this is not the group for it. I hear it is incredibly hard to get off Xanax and I praise anyone who has been through it and succeeded. Well done. Vickie > > > > I worked many yrs. after that > > > > and had more medical disasters (15 yrs. addicted on Xanax) [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Vickie Thanks Vickie. Xanax a lightweight benzo and i was on a small dose-- but quickly addicting. It was not that hard to withdraw (3 months), but clonazepam was so awful-- 18 mo. trying with no success and a seizure-- had to reinstate and take it higher. Interesting what you say about benzo knowledge; Charles Medawar has written an excellent book on their use "Power and Dependence". As things stand, it is sometimes the best recourse to keep a patient on benzos once started because they cannot be taken off and their condition requires it. "fresh diagnosis" = my term for an unrecognized w/d effect from a drug which is attributed to some other ailment. Erin >> I worked many yrs. after that >> and had more medical disasters (15 yrs. addicted on Xanax) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Vickie I've likely been on something, without my knowledge. Haven't you ever? :-) On Aug 21, 4:29 pm, "Bill in Co" <surly_curmudg...@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> I worked many yrs. after that > >> and had more medical disasters (15 yrs. addicted on Xanax) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I've likely been on something, without my knowledge. Haven't you ever? > :-) Never with a prescription. In the hospital, perhaps. Like I was not too sure what the painkiller I was on, but pretty certain it was morphine, for my c-sect's. Even when I went into hospital prior to surgeries, I was pretty certain what was being put into my body. Maybe I am anal about this stuff? Vickie >> In >> news:09f4ae1f-7dcd-4425-960c-1d250397a22f@v57g2000hse.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > that crash was as big or bigger, than the bipolar fallout, and > my DH's mental health crisis. That is most unfortunate (and to be that close). :-( > I worked many yrs. after that > and had more medical disasters (15 yrs. addicted on Xanax) > without my knowledge. But we had a pretty good life anyway. What major, Erin? (I think you mentioned it once, but I can't recall now). > I am now too old to start life again. Yeah, and I can definitely understand that one (me too). > But last fall I did go back > to university and took a course (got 84%) which made me feel [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Erin Same here, to some extent. > >> In > >> news:09f4ae1f-7dcd-4425-960c-1d250397a22f@v57g2000hse.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > Same here, to some extent. Thanks Bill. I've been through some hurdles, but i think i've been lucky. Some of them hurt more than others though. Some of them i wish could be reversed. But look at what happened on that airplane in Spain today -- some things can never be reversed. It's a sad fact of life. Maybe that's why we have religion. Erin In news:14e00780-0721-43c1-adf1-70bb2201793e@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com, Erin <squiggle@sympatico.ca> mused: >> In >> news:09f4ae1f-7dcd-4425-960c-1d250397a22f@v57g2000hse.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > But as for academia -- it really is too late for me now. But i > enjoy reading and researching on the net. None of which has anything at all to do with what I said. It's all just a diversion. >> In news:09f4ae1f-7dcd-4425-960c-1d250397a22f@v57g2000hse.googlegroups.com, >> Erin <squiggle@sympatico.ca> mused: >>> Hmmmm, what goes on at work can be very important [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > i passed that hurdle, and hope that my DH is pleased that > I am really OK, Did you do this course to prove something to your husband or to prove something to yourself or just because you felt like learning something new? and that as the counsellor thought, any woman > would get upset at what happened or at least how things happened-- > no need to invoke mental illness. Were you remotely possessive before he strayed or only after he went to this other woman? Or were you just "understandably possessive of his time etc" before he went to this other woman? - Michaela > But as for academia -- it really is too late for me now. But i enjoy > reading and researching on the net. > > Erin -- > >> In > >> [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > > > Erin Sorry, i just saw that; i think i overheard him almost in tears telling my dr. that he could no longer live with me-- he has been 4 months into withdrawal at the time, and abandoned me to go and see his co-worker/ soulmate in the middle of the winter-- didn't even call to say Happy New Year or anything -- just dumped me cause he HAD to see her. It was a humanitarian mission he said, because her personal love life was in tatter and they were soulmates-- he had to help her; so i told to get a job at the Red Cross. In my view he was justifying his attachment (which was high at the time to OW) by telling the dr. i needed schizophrenia drugs for paranoid jealousy. I told the dr. the whole story about the what i saw on the screen, and my suggestion that we part for a while, and he agreed that things looked bad. So, he gave an antipsychotic and more tranquillizers but only for a couple of weeks. I did not take them, and when i went back he seemed very pleased that I did not need them and congratulated me on emotional fortitude and wished me personal strength. I have been taking the same drugs at more or less the same dose for 30 yrs. and we went through many crises, much bigger than this: e.g. deaths, funerals, waiting and observing the dying, etc. I will never forgive the ********* for that slate of hand. I may love him, but that was as close to being a prick as a man can get. And no, i did not have a history of paranoid jealousy before this, and the counsellor said, none of what DH did was my fault, but in terms of repairing the marriage it has to be put aside in the past and in context. Which i am doing now. But it was not easy. I am not seen as as person of high self-esteem by my friends. Erin > -- > In > news:09f4ae1f-7dcd-4425-960c-1d250397a22f@v57g2000hse.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > And it's not to a woman? Women have different priorities. They say that if a man has problems at work, his relationship suffers. If a woman has problems in her relationship, her work suffers. But that is outside the context, which dealt with Erin's DH's work situation. Doug L. > > In > > news:09f4ae1f-7dcd-4425-960c-1d250397a22f@v57g2000hse.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Doug L. "outside the context"? does that mean not relevant in this case Doug? Erin >> In >> news:09f4ae1f-7dcd-4425-960c-1d250397a22f@v57g2000hse.googlegroups.com, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >work, his relationship suffers. If a woman has problems in her >relationship, her work suffers. Mind-boggling. Simply mind-boggling.  SignatureLauri in WA >> Erin <squiggle@sympatico.ca> mused: >>> Hmmmm, what goes on at work can be very important [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > at work, his relationship suffers. If a woman has problems in her > relationship, her work suffers. That only happens when people are allowing their unconscious to rule their lives. IMO there is no excuse for not being present in any given situation. Sure, it happens, but there's no excuse. - Michaela > But that is outside the context, which dealt with Erin's DH's work > situation. > > Doug L. -- > Hmmmm, what goes on at work can be very important > to a man's self-esteem. He may have been crushed [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Erin It seems to me that there is a part of us that cannot be diminished by others and to me that is what self esteem is. It is the part of us that believes --truly believes-- in our self worth (or self esteem). What you call self esteem above is what I refer to as ego. In the parts of us where we *allow* others to crush us and where we, in turn, set out to crush others, no matter how unconsciously, we are merely reacting and not responding to the universe. I believe that by crushing our egos they are giving us the opportunity to see just how much we value ourselves. i.e. if we can get up, dust ourselves off and carry on against the odds, we begin to grow true self worth. But If we fall and try to bring others down with us we are just reacting to the world. i.e. not behaving with responsibility. I like Rog's response to you and would like to hear what you have to say about the concept of self awareness. - Michaela |
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