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Toy guns

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ºFree~Spiritº - 30 Oct 2003 05:38 GMT
9 Year Old Arrested For
Waving Toy Gun
By Michael C. Fitzpatrick
Morning Journal Writer - Cleveland
10-29-3

LORAIN -- A 9-year-old boy was arrested at gunpoint and handcuffed Saturday
because he was waving a toy gun over his head while seated on a bench outside a
store, according to a Lorain police report.
 
His mother, Tamyka Saunders of Sheffield Lake, said her son, Thomas Clark Jr.,
told Lorain police when they approached him outside a Broadway business that the
gun was a toy. An officer aimed his weapon at the boy's head, ordered him to the
ground, handcuffed him and arrested him for juvenile delinquency by reason of
inducing panic, according to the police report.
 
Saunders, 28, was also charged with obstruction of justice and resisting arrest
when she pleaded with police not to arrest her son and to give him a warning,
according to a police report.
 
''He doesn't deserve this. He is not a bad kid at all. That's what I was trying
to explain to the officer. It's just not fair,'' Saunders said.
Saunders was getting her hair done at the Northern Institute of Cosmetology on
Broadway near Seventh Street when the incident began.
 
Saunders said she and her son were spending the day together . Saunders said her
son got his hair cut first, and then he went outside to play while waiting on
her.
 
A passer-by who saw the boy playing just before noon with a gun -- described by
police as a black plastic toy gun -- called police, who responded to the scene
and found the boy ''waving what appeared to be a black handgun above his head,''
according to a police report. The report said the gun was spray painted black
and resembled a genuine gun.
 
At that point, Officer Joe Novosielski confronted the boy at gunpoint, ordering
him to drop the gun and then lie on the ground, the report said.
 
Thomas, who his mother said has been diagnosed with attention deficit disorder,
said he was frightened by the incident.
Lorain police said Novosielski handled the situation properly.
 
''Obviously, someone got scared and called the police. Nobody driving down the
street could tell it was a toy gun, so that's where the panic comes in. We
charge that to anyone doing that,'' Lt. Robert Poli said.
 
''We're not going to tolerate anyone walking down the street, sitting on a bench
... if he's waving a gun around,'' Poli said. ''You don't know it's a toy gun.''
 
Saunders said police were not even going to come inside the cosmetology
institute to tell her they were arresting her son. She said she learned from
another woman her son was being arrested.
Saunders, wearing curlers in her hair, said she raced out to the police car to
attempt to intervene on her son's behalf.
 
''He (Novosielski) snatched me by the arm and cuffed me. People were just
walking down the street shaking their heads. I did not cuss at him, and I did
not yell at him, because I'm not that type of person. I feel I'm the one that
was disrespected,'' Saunders said of her arrest.
 
When informed her son was being arrested, Saunders attempted to pull her son
away from the officer but moved away when told to, according to the report.
 
Police said Saunders pleaded with them not to arrest her son and to ''just give
him a warning,'' according to the report. She also told police her son ''was
just playing'' and that he didn't point the gun at anyone before asking police,
''Don't you have anything better to do?''
 
Saunders was eventually arrested after refusing to move away from the cruiser
where her son had been placed, the report said. The officer told her to finish
her business at the beauty salon and then come to the station to pick up her
son, according to the report.
 
She is free on $750 bond and is scheduled to appear in Lorain Municipal Court
today. The report of Thomas' arrest was forwarded to the juvenile court system,
according to the police report.
 
Lorain County Prosecutor's Office spokesman Mark Hastings said the report had
not been received yet.
 
©The Morning Journal 2003

Free Spirit
DD(7) DS(10)
enigma - 30 Oct 2003 14:07 GMT
> 9 Year Old Arrested For
> Waving Toy Gun
[quoted text clipped - 91 lines]
> Lorain County Prosecutor's Office spokesman Mark Hastings
> said the report had not been received yet.

i would be sueing the police department. if this is what
happened it was handled *extremely* badly by the police. there
is no excuse for pointing a real gun at a 9 year old boy's
head.
when i was a teen i was in a car that got pulled over because
someone saw one of the kids in the back pass a pellet gun to
one of the kids in the front to put in the glove box. a pellet
gun looks way more like a handgun than a spraypainted plastic
toy (unless it's one of those vintage 60s toys. i had some
pretty realistic cap guns as a kid) so i can understand the
reasoning. while the officer that pulled us over had his gun
drawn, he certainly didn't *aim* it at anyone. he was also
jumpy when i removed the pellet gun from the glovebox,
understandably... however, once we showed him the pellet gun,
the pellets (it wasn't loaded. we weren't stupid) & how it
worked, he let us go...after asking where he could get one :p
it wasn't an entirely pleasant experience (especially since i
had no ID) but it certainly was less traumatic than this is
going to be for both the boy & his mom. that kid is *never*
going to trust cops again. <sheesh!>
another zero tolerance over reaction.
lee
Angie - 30 Oct 2003 18:08 GMT
I agree.
I'd listen to the mother who pleaded, I mean, she said it was fake.

> > 9 Year Old Arrested For
> > Waving Toy Gun
[quoted text clipped - 114 lines]
>  another zero tolerance over reaction.
> lee
Nan - 30 Oct 2003 18:19 GMT
> another zero tolerance over reaction.
>lee

As much as I don't like toy guns, I have to agree the cops went way
overboard.
I hope the department heads can truly see this for what it is and
discipline those officers accordingly.

Nan
sc®umble - 30 Oct 2003 20:04 GMT
> > another zero tolerance over reaction.
> >lee
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I hope the department heads can truly see this for what it is and
> discipline those officers accordingly.

Is it illegal to have toy gun in america.If not then I don't see what case
they have,especially as the child obviously hadn't threatened anyone,and
once they had the gun off the kid they would have been aware it wasn't real.

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Nan - 30 Oct 2003 20:14 GMT
>> > another zero tolerance over reaction.
>> >lee
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>they have,especially as the child obviously hadn't threatened anyone,and
>once they had the gun off the kid they would have been aware it wasn't real.

Heh.  Walk into any toy store in the US and you're bombarded with all
kinds of toy guns.
Nope, they're not illegal.  I don't really see what case they might
think they have.

I'd love to see the officers disciplined and have to give an apology
to the boy *and* his mother.

Nan
Jarkat2002 - 30 Oct 2003 21:34 GMT
>I'd love to see the officers disciplined and have to give an apology
>to the boy *and* his mother.
>
>Nan

not me.

~Kat

"Rice Krispies.  East meets west"  
Cosmo Kramer
gale - 30 Oct 2003 23:44 GMT
> >I'd love to see the officers disciplined and have to give an apology
> >to the boy *and* his mother.
> >
> >Nan
>
> not me.

whoever allowed and/or assisted the child in painting the gun to look real
should *really* be taken to task.  That was a very stupid manouver and the
individual was not thinking of the various children and adults who have been
killed mistakenly because the cops *thought* they were armed with real guns
and did not respond appropriately to their orders.

-A-
Signature

see my creative works on ebay under aulame 123

gale - 30 Oct 2003 21:38 GMT
> Is it illegal to have toy gun in america.If not then I don't see what case
> they have,especially as the child obviously hadn't threatened anyone,and
> once they had the gun off the kid they would have been aware it wasn't real.

It is not illegal but it is apparently illegal to manufacture toy guns the
look like the real thing because of similar events where people have even
been killed because the cop thought the gun was real.

-A-
Signature

see my creative works on ebay under aulame 123

Jarkat2002 - 30 Oct 2003 21:33 GMT
>As much as I don't like toy guns, I have to agree the cops went way
>overboard.
>I hope the department heads can truly see this for what it is and
>discipline those officers accordingly.
>
>Nan

I don't know ... after seeing an interview w/ the mother I could see how
hysterical she would become her arrest was probably necessary for the PD to
evaluate the scene (ugh .. it's NOT like me at all to take up for the PD!)
I saw the gun on the news .. it DID look real.  The kid spray painted it to
look real.  I'm glad the kid didn't get shot!  He is lucky, IMO anyone waving a
gun around puts themselves at risk.  Weather they are 'playing' or not.  
~Kat

"Rice Krispies.  East meets west"  
Cosmo Kramer
Nan - 30 Oct 2003 21:46 GMT
>>As much as I don't like toy guns, I have to agree the cops went way
>>overboard.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>gun around puts themselves at risk.  Weather they are 'playing' or not.  
>~Kat

Well, I haven't seen the interview, so I suppose she could have been
overly hysterical.
However, I still think that pointing a loaded gun at a young kid's
head and continuing to follow up with an arrest after being told it
was a toy was out of line.
I agree that it was really stupid of the kid, but overkill is still
overkill on the part of the officers.

Nan
Lead Foot Mama - 30 Oct 2003 19:10 GMT
OMFG!   This is ridiculous.  

I'm against guns and all - but finally gave in and let DS have a
wooden cap gun (resembles an old time doublebarrel gun - we bought on
vacation to WIlliamsburg this past summer).   Its got the orange
tipped end and all, and its a cap gun.

My son is 9, and he and his buddies all have cap guns - and they play
in the yard with them - cops and robbers or war or whatever.  If they
don't have the cap guns, they are using things like hockey sticks or
sticks as pretend guns.   Its no different in how they play than it
was when I was a kid - or when my parents were kids.    

I find this story just stupid.  Arresting a 9 yr old, hauling him off
to the station without his mother.   Hell - if anyone should have been
arrested, it should have been the mother - but since it was a toy gun,
there's no need for anyone to be arrested.  And to think they wanted
to take the son away from the mom and have her join them at the
station when she was "done with her business".   F-that - Nobody and I
mean NOBODY would be taking my son without taking me right along with
them.   I don't care if I was in the middle of having my hair colored
and went with foil and chemicals in my hair.  

>9 Year Old Arrested For
>Waving Toy Gun
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
>Free Spirit
>DD(7) DS(10)

--
LFM
They say I need to lose weight...
How do you spot reduce 10lbs out of your right foot?
Angie - 30 Oct 2003 19:36 GMT
I hear you!!

> OMFG!   This is ridiculous.
>
[quoted text clipped - 108 lines]
> They say I need to lose weight...
> How do you spot reduce 10lbs out of your right foot?
Jarkat2002 - 30 Oct 2003 21:38 GMT
>I find this story just stupid.  Arresting a 9 yr old, hauling him off
>to the station without his mother.   Hell - if anyone should have been
>arrested, it should have been the mother -

she was.

>but since it was a toy gun,
>there's no need for anyone to be arrested.

Unless he was pointing it at others who did not know it was a toy.
He took the toy gun and made it look real.  Yes, it was a toy, but did the
people around him know that?  No, and he didn't want them too either.
Don't get me wrong, I DON'T think this kid should go to jail, but I do think
some kind of action should happen.

>And to think they wanted
>to take the son away from the mom and have her join them at the
>station when she was "done with her business".   F-that - Nobody and I
>mean NOBODY would be taking my son without taking me right along with
>them.  

I'm sure she was arrested, she was screaming at the cameras on the news about
it.

~Kat

"Rice Krispies.  East meets west"  
Cosmo Kramer
toto - 31 Oct 2003 00:24 GMT
>OMFG!   This is ridiculous.  

It sounds ridiculous that's true.  I cannot find any pictures of the
toy gun online, but did find this.

Charges dropped in toy gun arrest

Wednesday, October 29, 2003

W W W . C H R O N I C L E T E L E G R A M . C O M

Tony Lombardo
The Chronicle-Telegram

LORAIN — A 9-year-old Sheffield Lake boy won’t face
charges for waving a toy gun in the air on Broadway Avenue in
Lorain, county Prosecutor Jeff Manning said.  The boy and his
mother, Tamyka Saunders of Sheffield Lake, were both arrested
Saturday after noon when a driver called police after seeing the
boy waving what appeared to be a real gun.

The boy was charged with inducing panic and his mother
with obstructing official business and resisting arrest. The
charges against the boy were dropped Tuesday.

Lorain police Lt. Bob Poli said the gun, which was painted
black, looks like a real 45mm semi-automatic weapon.
“I know all kids have toy guns and like to play with them,
but they can’t be painting them to appear real. This one here
looks pretty real,” he said.

Saunders said she didn’t know her son had the toy, which
he found in the park two days earlier. She said she was
getting a haircut at the Institute of Cosmetology when another
customer told her police had arrested her son.

“I flew outside, and I saw the police putting my son in the
squad car,” she said.  Saunders said her son was
frightened and cried as police took him into custody.
“He has attention deficit disorder,” his mother said. “It
makes him sensitive and softhearted.”

Police said they felt threatened by the gun. Patrolman Joe
Novosielski approached the boy as if he were a threat, Poli
said.  “You assume it’s real until you get there and see for
yourself,” he said.  Novosielski’s report states, “I exited my
cruiser and confronted the male at gunpoint. I ordered him
to drop the gun and lie on the ground.”

Manning said the gun’s appearance justified the call to police.
“The gun looks fairly real.  We’ve had a rash of incidents
involving firearms in this city,”  Manning said. “There’s a
heightened sensitivity among law enforcement individuals.”

Saunders was handcuffed and placed next to her son after
obstructing police business, a report said.

The report states she refused to walk away from the police
car and “flailed her arms” when the officer attempted to
handcuff her.

Saunders is scheduled to appear in Lorain Municipal
Court on Nov. 14.

Saunders denied resisting arrest and said the officer used
“excessive force” with her son.

“I was begging and begging the officer to give my son a
warning,” she said. “My son didn’t have any idea what he
was doing wrong.”

Contact Tony Lombardo at 329-7134
or tlombardo@chronicletelegram.com.
Charges dropped in toy gun arrest

Police apprehend 9-year-old Sheffield Lake boy at gunpoint
for waving plastic pistol

TONY LOMBARDO / CHRONICLE
A 9-year-old boy was arrested in Lorain while playing with
this toy gun, which had been painted black.

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

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